Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

Okay. All right. Let's open the meeting of the zoning board of appeals. I'm Eric Ward, the chair, and with four uh three other board members, Robert Ferra, Don Martin, and Maryanne Remy. Brief agenda for the meeting tonight. Um the first one is first item is um an information session. Uh Trevor, you want to come up to the table? Sure. We start starting now. Yeah. So Trevor Knight is a homeowner in Cold Spring. He called Spring. He asked to have an information session with the board before he gets his project underway. I don't know anything about it except that you're located on Marian Avenue, right? That's right. Yeah. 17 Marian, uh sort of across from Louis Tractors. It's the one with the stone wall gardens and everything. Um, yeah, a couple years ago I built a garage and and initially the initial plan for it asked for a variance. So, and I know Eric, you were on the board then. John, were you too? I started 1890. Um, yeah. And I had no idea what I I had no idea what I was getting into. uh especially the social political sort of street politics uh thing. I didn't realize they would Yeah. When when I I I talked to the neighbors and said, "Oh, I'm planning on doing this. Like, if you have any comments, I'm always here. Come, you know, just you have any questions, anything?" What? And they never said anything. And then then the ZBA like and I was like, "Hey, I'm going to apply for this variant." They're like, "Okay." you know, and then the ZBA meeting was total totally blindsided by the fivepage

letter that they wrote for the for the thing. Anyway, so I want so I mean obviously that was an educational experience on on how it works and I've you know been able to go online and understand more about like the like the five requirements of um character of the neighborhood and benefit and uh substantial etc. You know these And um so I've been yeah I guess I want to just understand more because I I wanted to like understand it's basically sorry taking these five questions it's basically weighing the answers to these questions versus the benefit to the applicant. Is that more or le more or less what is still weighing benefit to the applicant versus potential detriment to the community? Yeah. Gotcha. I Yeah, I see from the like the New York State guide to DBA that no one question is disqualifying, but it's it's just in the totality, right? How so these are the questions I couldn't get answered. How do you sort of quantify detriment or benefit? Like if I'm like, "Oh, I want to build this. It's gonna be it's amazing for my quality of life." And someone says, "I don't want to see it." How do you sort of, you know, it's a really good question. Good question. But it's all in large part, it's measured off by uh what the um board of trustees have handed down as, you know, code requirements. Measured off of that, right? Yeah, kept that kept in mind with an idea that that gives the board uh parameters to begin to understand how best to balance everything. So, you know, nothing particularly set in stone except for the code requirements are. Then you're

trying to figure out okay if we grant a variance which are things that can be authorized from those code provisions all based on the circumstances uh that you're dealing with with it can so every every as Eric will tell you and other people on the board every case is different so because you'll have different little facets and then the community will weigh in and uh just out of curiosity I'm also uh curious about that five-page letter I don't recollect what that was the one neighbor objected um strongly and wrote a long letter and then showed up and gave spoke against the application. Okay. Yeah. So I I don't fully remember what those comments were. So I you know it's hard to Yeah. No, I mean it's okay. I just I think the key point is that there was a there was strong opposition from a neighbor and which some often happens and but that's all taken in the balance, right? That's not the never decisive like that's not that that alone is not enough to to disqualify an application. Never is. Gota. Yeah. Yeah. And um because the board members realize there are neighbors who don't speak that neighbors who don't come. I mean just you know everything doesn't rise or fall based on who shows up and speaks as far as community sentiment goes. Yeah. And some comments be might be more rational than others. Better argue just to Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I I mean I think the way it I mean we you don't have to relitigate that, but I think basically the way it went and I understand the logic was that um I think this point number two is it feasible to do it a different way was I think the argument that that you can you made or the argument that was persuasive that sort of carried the day um in that that case.

Um, sorry. Yeah, John, to your point, like, yeah, you're right. There's the code. So, there's like it wouldn't be in front of the ZBA unless there was need for a bearance, right? Like that's what it ended up. It ended up just being like, okay, we're going to meet the sideyard setback and do the garage. And so, there was no need for a bearance, no need to discuss it. And so, like it ended up I see you ended up Yeah. So, Oh, good. Yeah. It's It's kind of funny. I I walked to the end of the driveway and turned back and looked at it and it's like Mhm. there was one one neighbor that's several houses down that like wrote a letter and was their argument is basically I will see it from the street. Well, people there's another way of looking at these things. You know, people can have a big yard, right? Mhm. But they're like, "Well, I don't want to put my thing in middle of my yard." Yeah. So, they want to put it as far off into a corner or something as possible. Yeah. That's a reasonable But it's a reasonable thought. But then the whole thing is, you know, everybody's like looking, well, wait a minute, that's getting close to my yard. So, what I'm saying, everything's in a balance. I mean, when if you have all this space, you may not have all that space, but if you do and you didn't want to make an issue of it, you would put it right in the middle of the yard. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, this garage is built and I'm it's a great structure and I'm happy with it. I think it's attractive. Um, I think the negatives of the placement is that there's now like this strip like there's strip between the garage and the the p the uh house um property line that's just a useless thing and then it's like and it's taken from the center like there's like a thing. But um I think the other the other thing that I did not anticipate was like like the the getting in and out, you know,

with the property with the driveway being straight down the property line. Like it's like you have to be like you have to pretty skilled driver, which I I hope I am to to to you know navigate those that in and out. But um yeah, so the the thing that I was interested in exploring is basically putting putting an addition like a small addition on this side with a garage door. Um basically extending the garage that way. Um to have to have a little more space and to have easier straight line like easier straight line access. the inner the inner bay is, you know, doing this and and have more space with a garage door. So, I can see what you're saying. So, you want to be able to pull straight in is what you're saying. That I mean, that would be one that would be one thing that would be nice about this versus like you can picture one two doors like being able to get to that second door. I I mean, I'd like to have the space like I'd like to have like that that Sorry. Sorry. All right. So, I use a garage for parking and I also do woodworking. And it's like I know it sounds stupid, but it's just like something that I like love doing evenings, weekends, you know, love building things for friends. It's just it's a hobby, but like to have that extra space would be amazing. And to have it accessible with a door. So, like I'm often like, you know, loading up plywood, loading up pieces of lumber, and then unloading it and pulling out, going get more. So, it' be really nice to have a a third door. So, you're talking about a door or a garage door? Sorry, a garage. Yeah, basically a third bay, a garage door. So, it's it's kind of like an addition to the the garage which will extend into

the setback area. Yeah. So, sorry. One of my questions was I think this is RN, right? Yes. Right. And so I I think they change setbacks but not for RN right changing I don't remember at this point I don't remember what it was before and now we we look at things when it's presented to us. We don't want to quote the code now but because we don't know what your application is yet. Oh yeah. Yeah. Sorry. It's just like someone remarked to me like oh they changed the sideyard setbacks. And I was like I don't think for RN but uh you can look up that obviously yourself. the the code says 10 feet which I think is what I remember from for years. I mean that's what the setback is now then typically that pretty much depending on if you're a wide enough lot but if you were a narrow lot it would be a different equation but basically it's 10 ft if it's a a properly sized lot you know right ahead yeah so basically it's like I it's it's hard to quantify in words like oh like having this extra space and having that third garage bay would be a tremendous like I would like it would be a tremendous benefit to me like it would I would really enjoy it and you know but um of course I I expect the same neighbors to have would this addition be as bulky as the original plan for the garage um I think that it would be I mean I I haven't sort of done architectural drawings or anything but I think it would be lower and it would be shorter. It would just it would extend. I don't know trying like in everything trying to make it as as attractive as possible. So from the side of from from your property line to what would be the north that's your norly property line uh by the other

side of the driveway from the garage. What is that distance from that property line to the front of your garage right now? Just out of curios 1/2 ft. 12 and 1/2 ft. Okay. Yeah. you're thinking about putting in another bay. Um, so you you remember the comments will about visibility from the road, but that's not to be delved into at this moment. But now I'm just trying to theorize what you're trying to are you trying to be able to drive a car and be able to pull straight in, but then you would also have the same backing altitude. It'd be easier to drive in, but then you still have to maneuver to get a car completely turned around, right? Yeah. Uh, yeah. I don't have a Maybe if I just go on maps, I'll do a vertical satellite photo. That's that's all. That would help on a project like this, you know, especially when you're trying to you're trying to tell us what the function of the design will be for you, your benefit. So, that would help us by getting that kind of information. Yeah. So, I'm just connected through my phone and it's somewhat slow. Um yeah, I pulled my car in there just I mean so like just just to sort of feel like okay like oh sorry yeah just to be like okay how much how much space is there would it fit you know what would this be like you know um what is the distance the bank property line the structure um were there two I don't know whether there were two requested variances as I no it was just it Just one. It's basically just sidewalk. Just the side block. Yeah. Yeah. So, what you would do, would you typically from the way I see you positioning the car there? Your idea is you would drive into the

driveway, turn, try to get the car to turn, face the house, and then back in. Is that what you intended? I mean, currently, I back down the driveway. You back all the way out. Yeah. to every time to to go into any anything basically. Yeah. Um I found that just a Yeah. And yeah, first time I was built and I was pulling the car in, I pulled in that pulled it forwards into that second bay and then I was like, "Oh god, getting um just looking at the satellite. See if we can get it." Oh, no, we can't. No, sorry. just check tree shadows. Um that 17 17 there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean if you walk along there and there's a there's a stone wall about lot of garden in the front you and a and a like a Japanese maple. Yeah. So I think what most of this has come to and Eric probably tell you and you know is that you know if it gets real close to what you initially you know asked for I mean again every application would be entertained Mhm. But you know it you'd have to show distinctions, right? Yeah. The closer uh the um closer your new plan is to the um bulkiness of the original plan, the more difficult it is for it's going to be to prevail. Sorry. Is the the issue that it's similar to something that's already been discussed or it's well just because the same same led to rejection before would apply unless you unless there's something new which I don't know there doesn't seem like there is I mean some something substantially new about the whole situation. Yeah. Uh I mean it's like for instance in the law I mean there's a basic

understanding even though like slight variances make a slight difference but you'd have to really sort of snap check but in the law you don't get two bites the apple you know trying to get it through twice if it was denied the first time and there's no real difference between the first plan and the second plan. It's hard to anticipate a different result. One huge difference is there's a whole new zoning code now. Well that's that's right substantially revised and um Um, I'm not sure if there were any of the changes help you, but it's I mean, it's hard to say because it's so complex. It's hard to say that I would have to go look at numbers. I don't know that numbers change that much. There may be other differences. Sometimes there's exceptions for garages of different kinds that that have changed. I just can't say offhand what they might be. So, it's definitely worth your looking at the relevant like garages, accessory buildings. That's really the category we're talking about here. Accessory buildings. Okay. Just take a look at the the language about accessory buildings in the new code. Just see if there's anything in there that wasn't there before that helps you. Yeah, that would be the one difference. Yeah, these are the beneficial statements we can make to you. it's anything else other than a plan. First of all, we're not really, you know, even we're doing a workshop as you know, we can't weigh your application at that point. We simply say what you need or you don't need. Uh and then without um any kind of a even if it came to the actual hearing, absent specific information that you're trying to do for us to weigh on anything would be speculation. absent you are hard fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. I think it's

just I mean Yeah. I mean I think the main ambiguous thing that you know I sort of can find online is like how do you how do you quantify a benefit or like what is the you know you know Yeah. Well the answer to that is there there is no objective way to quantify. Yeah. No of course just judgment. Yeah. thing drawing in everything our own knowledge of the village precedent common sense. So the only things that really can be quantified are measurements numerical measurements right as as they relate to the measurements given in the code that's the one area where can be can do quantification and and then look at percentages like what you're asking for is 50% of you know this and we can get into quantification at that level but that's a fairly narrow part of the whole um consideration. Keep in mind the character of the neighborhood. A lot of neighborhoods are different. Some were built so much earlier than the others, some are not. So if you come to Main Street here and there's still like 20 foot setbacks supposed to be, but most people are up front and so you're weighing against you're looking at the character of the neighborhood and that might weigh in your favor if the houses are more drawn to the front and you might say, "Well, I need this kind of a variance off a front yard setback." Mhm. Uh, you know, things like that would be you you're you're basing you're we're we're looking at the neighborhood and comparing and saying so you would get photographs of your neighborhood and you would say I'm trying to do this. This is what I seem to see up and down the neighborhood. I'm trying not to get out of character. Uh I believe this might be uh you know acceptable. And then of course you

you'll have your neighbors weigh in at one point or another. So again, it's all varied. Yeah. Got you. I guess um Yeah. One thing about where I am in Marion Avenue is like the across the street is tractors, industrial buildings, trash cans. That may weigh in your favor. Um, got you got um I think in the first the first time we you know originally with this there was some discussion of like it's an otherwise conforming lot like where does and that like there I think there was some hesitancy to add a variance to an otherwise conforming lot. Does that fit into the is that neighborhood character or how does that fit into the conversation? Not sure I remember exactly talking about it's just a criteria of of a of case law you know there's case law I mean it's the five elements you know come down from the court of appeals uh the code is given to us by the uh board of trustees and we'll we'll evaluate so that there's not too much straining by uh a board or an overlooking of aspects. The court of appeals comes in and says these are the five criteria. You have to go through each one and give your reasons why you're finding for or against you know this is for the applicant against the applicant. And that's how they wait, you know, work it out. Yeah. I I think it's coming back to me now. Think the point that um that stands out for me was the I think we talked about how the Marian Avenue is a more modern subdivision and the lot the lots are bigger. Um it's the

layout is more modern. It's more spacious. Um there are few um non-conforming if you go to the older parts of the village often practically there's a nonconformity in every lot since the house the house is pushed way over by the property line etc. You do lot after lot. So someone from one of those blocks comes forward and asks for a variance of this type um means one thing but in in a modern neighborhood where there's none of that everything is conforms to ask for the same variance has a different color because of again it's neighborhood character. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Understand. Yeah. I mean many if you walk around then there's many places where there are garages right on the property line but not on Marian. Yeah. Yeah. So that does weigh against what you're asking for, but it's just something got it. So in general, working with your designer or on the plan, you just keep in mind um the less intrusive the addition is, the better your chance. So just make everything as the minimum that you can get away with, still achieve your goal, right? Is that sloping the roof maybe so it's less a less height? Um maybe cutting it short in the back so it doesn't extend back as far you know I don't know whatever things like thinking always thinking in those terms like do I really need to extend this? Can I scale this back will will help because as you you just literally just pointed out part of the law is that you know you grant the minimum variance that you can to achieve the goals of the applicant. So there is a a narrow looking at a project and saying well the law says while you can grant a variance you're trying to keep

it at a within a certain spectrum of the code. Uh so it talks uses the term minimum you know that that that that would meet the applicant's needs and so is the balance in on that too. So, it takes both code and the applicant's desire. Yeah. Yeah. No, I see I see that it's it's tricky. Um, thank you. Like, by the way, sorry. Thank you so much for taking the time to to chat about this. I I don't know if you were planning on meeting anyway. I hope I hope you didn't just have the meeting. Oh, no, we were. Okay. Okay. Um, but you're you're entitled to Well, I appreciate you taking the time to I mean, I obviously wish we'd had this conversation, but I had no idea what I was getting into. Um, yeah, and in general, thank you so much for serving on this board. I like I know how much time it takes to serve on these boards. It's very important. It takes people who are who care about it and like um and so I I appreciate all your all your time. Yeah. Well, I hope we answered, you know, as many questions you can. I mean, that's it. There really isn't anything much more sophisticated than that going on, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I understand there's there's it's very specific to the circumstances, very specific to the application. So, there's no way to sort of Yeah. You're in the balance. Yeah. So, makes sense. And I always that what seems the like the most important consideration to me when we look at applications is is there another way to achieve what you want to achieve. So think you know maybe that I don't know I'm sure you thought about that but a lot right constantly. Yeah. Yeah. That always seems like you know to me a big question. Is there

another way to do this? Right. Yeah, I'll keep looking at it. And uh yeah, well again, thank you so much for your time. Nice to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Okay, so we have one other thing on the agenda that is draft minutes for a meeting in September. I see you also provided Abigail January 28th. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Have a good evening. Byebye. Have a good night. Yeah, that one was short so I just included it. Thank you. Let's take a minute to read. So, we're looking at September 24. Let's start with September 24. Was the name of the applicant like under number two? Was it Was it E Wrath? I'm like, that's my name. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's just a typo in my name. Yeah. No, no, no. I I just was double checking that there wasn't somebody close to you living in the neighborhood. because they could be also the future chief of the Yeah, there you go. The wrath of Yeah, I actually remember this one. The fence that if the trailer were to ever move, the guy was staring me down. He was because I was asking questions, but he was like, "No, this is supposed to be easy."

The one that voted against it, they can have my job any day. Yeah, 401. I think the one would be maybe. Oh, maybe. Yeah, it wasn't there. I can mention that. Oh, that's a clear. Well, sometimes there's four numbers. Um, uh, four against absent. Is it absent or I just think it's abstain because you already have the attendance, right? Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah, we're all there on the attendance. Presence absent would be redundant. So then it wouldn't be 41, then it would be 31 if there are only four attendants. I'm going to be like 301 for a total of four. Well, but okay. So there but there were five people there that day. So yeah, there were Well, you have the adjournment. You have a vote 50. Yeah, I do. So that's fine. There weren't. Yeah. One, two, three, four, five. Yeah, you got it. You got it right. I'm just saying that Yeah, the numbers match up. So, do we anybody have any other changes? Yeah, I think um so there's none under every heading and then there's the information block. So I think we need to delete one of the nuns and put the information block under maybe um well the orientation could go under new business and the resolution could go under old business the nuns from those two. Yeah.

How does that sound? It sounds good to me. Yeah. Makes sense. That's that's one change we're going to make is um currently there's none under every heading. So we're going to delete the none under new business and the none under old business and put number put the orientation under new business and the review of the resolution under old business. Okay. and correcting spelling of my name and otherwise looks okay to me. Looks fine. Looks good. Good points. See that's why it takes a few people to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. Many eyes helpful. I will make a motion to approve the minutes of September 24th as amended. Welcome back. All in favor? Move on to January 28th. This is second meeting. CB was not here. Yeah. So, let's revisit that one second. the rule on somebody who wasn't there but they're now present. Can they vote on the minutes if they had seen the replay? That's that's one of my questions. If we want to address that or you want to just abstain, you could do that. I know we talked about it in regard to resolutions. That's right. Now, now it's an issue of minutes. I don't remember whether whether minutes were part of that.

We have a followup question. I was set a minute probably from October it three re in attendance when it's no longer the board. Would that mean that the minutes can't be That's a good point because that would mean if if you disagree mean we could never approve those minutes. Yeah, I I think I think there the only change, but the person would have to be on the board at the time. I I can a person who came onto the board afterwards turn around and help approve minutes over Yes, there would have to. That would have to be possible. So, I'm just I'm bringing up this theory. So, the idea would they also have to look at the replay? How long? There's no way to enforce that. So, it's it would be um pointless to have that as a requirement. There's just no way to enforce it. No to know. Okay. So maybe those who are present explain to the other new applicant or the new well yeah the new member could I mean it's not an unreason it's not unreasonable to allow a new person to vote just as they can vote on a resolution. All they're voting on is this document um to the best of their knowledge. Is it accept or reject? And yes, they have less potentially less knowledge. Um but they still are a member in good standing and they're present and they're entitled to vote on every document, every resolution, every minutes are supposed to reflect what happened at the meeting. And if you're not at the meeting, then how can you vote whether or not the minutes reflect? Well, you you can vote to accept. What you're really voting on is to accept or reject this document and a new member is doing so with less knowledge. They can still they still are entitled. I mean just as I mean this happens variants of this happen all the time. Um nothing get done right because people are always missing meetings then coming to the next meeting and then and then and things carry over from one meeting to the other and people nothing

would get resolved. Yeah. you never have enough quorum to vote on a lot of things. And I've seen this in other bodies. I mean, a member who in good standing who is present is entitled to vote on all the all the actions, all the documents, all the resolutions, but simply by virtue of being there. And they won't all have the same knowledge necessarily, but that's true in many ways. many ways they differ in their knowledge of the situations, the various situations. So yeah, some people even if they're here don't know what's going on, right? Right. Some some people paying less attention at the previous meeting and and you can't. So is it allow is hitting allowed in meetings? Yeah. Hey, listen. Wow. We're given our time here. Let's have a little But no, we get it. No, we I agree with you. So, and I I could see it with the resolution because what you're doing is you're reading an entire resolution that is justified. I mean, when when a resolution is written, there's all the information is right there. So, I even the resolution is based on pre what happened in previous meetings. Yeah, that's true. True. Very true. Okay. So, the important term to remember is you're hired. You're on board. Let's go. On deck pattern, stepping in. Yeah. Um it has to be this way, Eric. Nothing would get done, right? And a new member still can make intelligent judgments about a document in the past minutes, right? Um at a minimum that person can check for typos and or if it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. To a new person. I mean, in a way, they're in a good position to judge whether this makes sense. So, I didn't mean to put us on the spot with No, you can, you know, it is something that will come around. Definitely. Well, we we've wondered about it over and over and we addressed it partly with Jonathan DeJoy.

So, it's I think we've hashed it out to our satisfaction because let me because it nothing would get done and and that you can't allow that if you were always having to parse about who was here. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Yeah. And having been at the previous meeting to this and kind of get the drift of everything because I remember what we talked about. So, there is some contribution in addition to typos I can do even though I wasn't here. to that you may not have been there for the particular meeting but these items may have been discussed at another meeting that came successfully or so uh there you know when you're a volunteer board this has this has to be the case there's no way we're wrong I don't see it I I just wouldn't say I've never heard of I mean boards will be wasting half their time on this point right and we do have deadlines and there are stat Okay. So, I like the way you format the the motion and the persons who move and second this way. It's very clear to very clear to um to kind of at a glance tell who did what. HB. That's how they do things.

Okay. Well, that looks good to me. minute, John. Uh, yeah, just I was just reworking one or two things in my head thinking, but I I'm almost done. Okay. I I don't see any changes either. So, make a motion. Robert do it. Make a motion to accept the minutes to January 28th, 2025. Second that. All in favor? I as is. Right. Good job. Woohoo. Thank you. Okay. So, Abigail Fair. That was such an interesting discussion where we just really there's a lot going on. Yeah, there is there the biggest project this place has ever seen probably. Yeah. Um any other business? That's it. I I didn't hear haven't heard you you recall that we um had discussions about um creation of a motorcycle. down by the depot. Yeah. On the first floor. Um that I I guess uh he didn't hasn't communicated any further. I mean he stopped, right? He just stopped answering or stopped communicating. Um I don't think it was completely him. I think he wanted to will the whole thing

into you know existence. Um but he did withdraw his application. Drew the department. Yeah. didn't he didn't provide some selfie at the sport. So yeah. So I guess that's kind of a bar. So that's that's right across from the uh the restaurant, right? Yeah. I've seen people in and out of there. There's a lot of there's a little activity more than usual going on there. I think they may be the owner. Perhaps the owner is trying to sell the building. Just not they can't do anything with it. That's an original building. I mean, that's one of the ones you see with the old photographs. A lot of the old photos. Yeah. Think of siding off. Fix it up again. Yeah. Looks like the project for you. Yellow building. That's the other side of it. On the other side of the square finally some action. Brian bought that building. Who's Who's Brian? Somebody. Yeah. I know from Boy Scouts. Oh, I don't know. But Oh, so would you know what they're going to do with it? I don't know. I don't know. I know. He bought a bunch of buildings from Oh, wow. One of the French restaurant. So, what's your favorite color of all those splashes on on this side of building, right? You see how they're looking at it? Yeah. Be nice. Yeah, it be nice that that's I've been here since 2001 and it's been vacant since then. Exactly. singer. Exactly. Be nice to be it wore tex for at least 10 of those or 12 of those. Yeah. For like a year there was somebody in there. I think they had a desk like a lamp. It's a nice building, but who knows what the location

should be bathrooms in there for people getting off the welcoming 12 bathrooms. Yeah, welcome back. We've had to zone that for for special. Yeah. Need clearance from the sewer treatment. I make a motion that we adjourn. I'll second it. All in favor? I thank you, Eric. Thank you for everybody. Go next. Right. Oh, wow. notific.