Historic District Review Board - Regular Meeting

Okay, calling the meeting to order. Let's go ahead and get going since we do have a quorum here. First up, Ken, come on down. Tell us all about So, first of all, sorry about all the confusion there, including the six copies. I didn't get to advocate a lot on time this stuff. Um, oh, you have the you've got Oh, okay. Cool. All right. You have a few here. Let me Oh, this is the the updated material that's not

so the u and I apologize for the confusion. The way I read everybody's act was that allow us to get going on the COA so we could work to get on the be and maybe get some help from the building department to make sure I'm doing things like I was supposed to. Okay. But so in the meantime, Aaron did a lot of research in terms of going fact going back way back to historical society and getting that big the picture 1902 and so on. And uh I'm glad she did because first of all there was it really looks like there wasn't there wasn't real bigs or anything on it.

It's hard to say because they have some bounce folks at the corners and so on. Now, what I can say as I' as we've gone through this is that first of all, the colonial columns seem to be pervasive in the area. Okay? And I think they'd be a good fit. And and here's here's what I'm running into. I even took some photos, but a little late for this. As we dig into the existing port structure,

right? What I found is that first of all, those round columns were sitting on mostly nothing. Um the the actual structure, even the structure that's in there now, I took some pictures of double 2 by sixes, but basically 3/4 of the round structure were not sitting on anything. Uh, and that's probably why they had that rod iron at at some point because it actually went around the actual two the doubled 2 by sixes. Um, so what I'm having to do now, in fact, is actually build out the corners and each one of the areas by the post because when they they at some point in time redid that port structure, the the so the brick columns, there's literally only like one brick holding up the portion that's underneath there. And probably not appropriate. um even if it may be okay for the load. So, what I'm having to do now is and I've got pictures of it if people want to say, but I have to build that out. Probably going to pour those brick it and pour it up to the to the point where I've got the wood because I don't know of any other way to ensure that that brick column actually supports what it needs to. And then I'm going to be doubling up the the um the trusses

right underneath um just to make sure. And really that for the most part it's the middle beam on the side that really takes most of the pressure. The middle post on the side beam actually takes most of it because the rest is kind of held up by the the the structure that's in place for the the other part of the building that actually comes out further.

Right. But essentially, I'll be working on getting all those up to where they should be with the verb column. But like I say, I don't have that pictures of that. But it's another just example of what I've run into in terms of as I get into this property because we were taking out the deck boards cuz they were rotten and then then we found out what was really, you know, in place. Um, so basically by doing that, I think that's 6x6 post, which is 3,000 lb uh load capacity on it. Should should be fine. I've already got the 2x8 30ft beam uh manufacturer sitting on the deck and we'll be getting that up in place as soon as you know we can. We'll have that on everything will be on jack post because it takes three to four weeks to get the the actual corn.

So this is what you're proposing. Yeah. Yeah. That's Aaron's random thing. I I guess the only thing as far as the clarification goes is that uh through the stairs in the middle there. Yes. You've got brick and and I'm pretty sure you're not there. That is the brick. Yeah. That's that's what's brick brick that needs to be on on the back side of it needs to be poured in stone or slate slate on top brick throughout not changing

right no and there's brick pillars that are underneath the the main supports too so it's consistent the colonial posts um we think they'll they'll work historically and they'll be the best for structure uh more helpful to the to the to maintain the structural. I know I can strap those yeah strap those those post to the beam appropriately. I'm feeling good about the fact that we'll have a solid beam. The one of the thing that would be interesting is, you know, from a historical building perspective is, man, it would have been nice if someone had been looking at this place over the years and going, "Hey, you guys are doing some stupid things."

But it was before you guys were active. Yeah. Well, they did a lot of stuff on their own and they did what they could do.

All right. Anybody have any questions concerning the the application? Um, I I I feel okay with this change given the number of neighboring residences um that that show very similar um columns. I know that last that last reference image of the actual building, it's you can't zoom in enough to really tell. Um, they kind of look round to me and maybe the shadowing is making them look square, but um I I personally feel okay about this change. Can you Yeah, I'm I mean

I know that one looks a capital um doesn't seem as decorative as what's being proposed. um but it's narrower than the existing and so what you're proposing is probably closer to the original than what was currently there and way better than the metal. So I think we're inching closer to the original. Um to me it's just a question about the overall style of the building and if it's consistent with the neburn buildings and the new column style is appropriate to the specific building. Um I definitely think it'll be nicer. Oh, to answer your question about I think you mentioned something about the siding might be underneath the the vinyl and whatever. It's not a good Yeah, sorry.

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Do you have copy for? Yes, I have. This is this is the the final proposal. Um well, I I appreciate you doing the research and and um you know, digging out what um was there in the past. I I think that really adds a lot of credibility to what you're proposing. So, well, I would I would really like to be able to, you know, I think it's I think over time it could be really nice. Yeah.

It's pretty nice. Well, nice on the inside. We just want to maintain what the structure we have and uh and yeah, right away. Totally get that. You did something about like gutter types. We covered that, right? That in the previous application. Portion of the application. Yeah. So, the gutter won't Yeah. The gutter along that

the gutter will be along part of Yeah. Part of the issue is if you look at that I couldn't believe it but that actually the second dormer was actually put in as an option and it was a mistake right from the beginning beginning but and that's what caused a lot of issues with the whole front porch I think because of the the way it funnels the water and so on. It comes right between the two the guttering. Yeah. Between the two. We thought it was solid until we cleaned out all the garbage and the two living trees that were up there. Oh wow. And so what will be happen a lot of this we're needing to get this done because we need to get a new roof on the insurance company said they need a new roof other they won't be insured. Yeah.

So so yeah. So what they they'll be doing is they're going to be putting in a solid flashing there and then guttering along the top that top dormer or the one that's back six inches. Put a good gutter on there. Run the water to the side rather down to the middle. So, you're proposing to detach these two formers, the two just the flashing, just it will be attached uh structurally, but uh because right now all the water goes right down in between the two dormers. It goes way back in about four or five feet and it that's what what causes a lot of the issues.

Wow. There's a space about this wide between them. Yeah. Once once you dug it out dug out all the trees, there was about half basically they didn't put any elevation change in to pitch it out towards the front, right? So everything just sits there. The roofing companies uh get the permit should be should they cash a check the permit should be part of the process. So the eaves of the roof are almost touching by just a few inches and then the roof below that opens up to a foot and change and then maybe the ease and change or it goes back to the main. Just looking at the historic

Yeah. goes down below. Yeah. Down below there's about this much space that goes through and there's a space about like that. Yeah. Yeah. And they'll be basically they're they're going to be putting a solid flash in there. to make sure it looks like once it's done it's doesn't feel like we've just weirdly attached two dormers even if waterproof wide that um look like it did before we cleaned it

actually it's costing $4,000 for them to literally do a slight elevation change which is not visible from the ground but to pitch it towards the the gutter because right now it's just flat That's why everything sits there. Okay. Do I have a motion concerning this application? Yes. No. Uh material-wise, it's saying you're doing the paintable composite that the same as we discussed last time. Um,

I mean, now that it's a smaller number, is it possible to go back to wood and which I believe is consistent with your neighbors? It's the same number of columns. I think just a narrower profile, right? I think we're trying to get like a wider tapered profile, which is hard to achieve in wood. I'll stand up.

The previous submitt was trying to replicate the existing columns and they were wider which is hard to find in wood. Um and now that they're proposed as um 6 in is uh looking at this elevation. Is it sorry round or square? I should know the answer. I haven't had time. square and then Yep. Um I think that's easier to find in wood rather than the other. And so I'm wondering if um we could do it in wood, which would be more historic and more consistent with your neighbors.

I don't see I don't see the difference in going composite versus wood. There's no difference in the look. it's we sourced it and we have good material for the so we don't normally approve composite unless there's a specific reason to if the form is hard to achieve in composite so a previous application on Kemble that rebuilt the garage ground up I think we uh requested with a fixment that those columns are wood um so I'm just making sure the board feels cons that there is some consistency Well, we do approve composite materials when as long as they're paintable.

Um, so we've done that for for siding and stuff like that. I've done over a month of research on these things. Might stay as it is. I just want to ask the question before we I'm personally okay with it. Okay. Yep. I'm fine with that. All right. Uh, do I have a a motion concerning this application? Uh, I'll make a motion to approve the application as as submitted. Submitted. Um, okay. Yes. I I zero.

Thank you for the lovely anniversary gift. Yes. Our 48th anniversary tomorrow. Congratulations. Thank you. All right. Thank you everyone. And you're you do a wonder. I wish you were doing it since 1960 or so. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Uh 12931 Main Street. Now that's the Cozy Corner.

Yes. Good. How are you? Okay. So, installation of a retractable awning and then there are a whole bunch of issues that we raised. Uh, and if I have my we have my letter that I sent out, right?

Oh, the email that you sent out. the email on board. No, the email that he sent out um after our meeting last the issues for let me just was the wood floor and the green panels we have on the wall. We took everything down. Yes. because we didn't know to be honest. Uh so once we you know found out and you guys told us uh we just looked everything up and I willing to you know appeal and see what you guys think from my do.

Okay. So, the I guess going through the the issues um that's fine. Um the green plastic on the wall and on the fence, the uh flooring, the wood flooring tiles on there. Did you say those are gone, too? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um and the signage. Um, oh good that was in the email the signage.

Yeah, that the newly you want to start there. So I think it's basically signage. Um, and one of the signs is overhanging the sidewalk. So I don't know building number. I know 129 131. Uh, so there's a signage and yeah, the awnings. Um, Al, where do you want to? All right. Um, I I didn't pay attention. Uh, is the is the green u gone?

It's gone. The green is gone and the is the the floor and the picket fence is No, I don't think the picket fence is gone, right? No, it's not. Uh then the fence, I don't know if you guys talking about the little one. Uh I spoke with the owner and he told me that it's been there for more than 30 years. Yes. And you're talking about this, right? Yeah. Yeah. That one the owner said that it was there for like here for more than 30 years. Yeah.

I'm trying to think. I remember seeing a photograph of well I I remember this particular area because uh the the owner previously uh filed an application for uh this area here and there was no fence at that time. So I think

I think it it it's a bit of a tricky situation because the seller entrance is there as well which does create kind of a bit of a potential tripping hazard. Um, I think for on my perspective visually, I think the awning, uh, I mean, we'll get into the details about the awning, but I I don't I don't have any issue with the idea of the awning. I think that it is a lot there's just a lot going on here, right? Some of it's now been taken care of. Um, but the picket fence that's just thrown there. Um,

well, I I I guess we also have a question concerning this fence over here because that's You've got a fence there. You got a fence there, right? Yeah, that fence. I just got it from Amazon. I can just take it out. All it does to be honest is just, you know, to cover everything we have behind there, the garbage cans and, you know, things that you don't want to seek. Yeah. Well, okay. So, um I I guess essentially what what we are supposed to be looking at is the awning and and uh fences on both sides, right? Is that what what the application's boiling down to?

Are the seller doors are not going away, are they? No, they're not. Oh, okay. Cuz they're not in this. They're not in this. Yeah. My wife did that playing around with it because I we know that you guys asked for a an image okay um between 10 and the awning is going to be between 10 foot and 10 foot six high how does that where does that place it on the facade directly above the window. So the awning is going to be up here.

Correct. So the window, the top of the window is at 10 feet. So normally we would go a few inches higher than that obviously. Um it would frame it out really nicely. I mean I I do so many of these and it's just, you know, it's the perfect mount. It's a storybook mount. It's a very small awning. um respectively and it would be high enough where it doesn't it's not going to impede anyone's view. So in terms of it'll it'll create a nice quaint space without anyone on any corner having something obstructing their view which I think is perfect.

Is it retractable? Yeah retractable. It says that it goes up to we proposed to install an 11 foot wide by 9 ft maximum extension. So it can go out 9 ft. It can go out 9 ft. It can be brought in every inch of the way. Where is the property line because I believe the sidewalk is clo is less than 9 ft from the building. The side the sidewalk is 8 foot I I believe it's 8 feet from the building. So in other words, you could bring it in um easily uh to only open we can set it where it only opens up KT.

Okay. So it is the intention that the awning be the width of what used to be the uh turf astroturf it the it's measured I measured it. It's 200 in from the corner of the building which takes it to say where that that lattice is the fence. So, it would start at the fence and go over 11 ft, which is just shy of uh the other thing that's there. So, so, so it would start here, right? It would start between the windows. Where is that? Do you see the pen?

Yeah. She's saying it's going to start between the windows. So, it's not the left of the windows. You're saying it starts here. It's going to start correct. It's starting right here. So, it's not like this rendering. No, it's smaller than that. So, it starts it's measured from there's no point in covering something that no one's going to be seeing. Right. So, if you drew a straight line from the fence, the edge of the fence, it goes over 11 ft, which brings you right to where that six inches before the little hedge.

Okay. It's going to help out help out with two big problems we having right now. One is the heat that we having from that side. We have like three splits and they not even enough. Uh so I spoke with someone and he told me if we put an on there, it's going to cover all the heat coming from that side. And also the uh safety because we have umbrellas right now over there and they I don't believe they, you know, super safe. Okay, let's take one step at a time. the uh you still want the fence, right? Is that fence? I don't I can talk with the owner and tell him to take it out because I don't

Well, I I think that the issue I I would have with this fence is that typically our our guidelines call for the fence to run from po between the posts. you have it or or the owner has it tacked on to one face of the post. So it the the the the fence if it's reconfigured a little bit uh would be acceptable.

I think I I would personally prefer that all of the extraneous materials are removed and then anything that's going to be added back in gets applied for. So, personally, adding this element, the awning element, I think the only reason that it works kind of visually is that the space has been emptied of all of the the additional material. Okay. I I I'm not as, you know, uh uh I'm not as u strict as far as that goes because uh if they take away this fence and then they put back a fence in the same location, what difference does it make?

Is it at all? Is the fence needed? Huh? If it Well, it it's uh I think we're talking about a safety issue because you have the the uh entrance to uh the basement right next to it. I don't think that a fixed 8 foot section of white picket fence is appropriate for that location visually.

Okay. I I I don't have any problem with that. I'm concerned that this awning placed over the windows, unless we look at some some sun studies, might not actually achieve what you're looking for and that that space is a little bit cramped and the sidewalk I'm concerned the sidewalk will be impeded on and that there won't be able to have people like easy passage. Well, I I I think to to me that that is that's the one issue that I have is uh has this been worked with the village because the village uh owns the sidewalk.

Well, it's not going it doesn't have to even go near the sidewalk. It could the stop can be set. So, it the awning when it's fully opened is not not covering the sidewalk. It's also going to be at 7 feet something in high when it when it's fully extended at its lowest point. So at the 9 ft

at n if we are mounting at 10 and 1/2 ft we have 29 in of pitch to play with. So we can pitch it anywhere from straight down 29 in. So at any point at its lowest point it is not going to be near anyone's head near anything and it's literally can be the set will there's no reason to cover anything other than the seating area. Okay. And the seating area is within the the building owner's property. Correct. Yes.

Okay. Um I I guess one of the things which I I would like to see is uh I'm not

I I I think that the issue that we're talking about if you take a look at this photograph you can sort of see You can see that if this is the the property line, basically the the fence stops at the at the property line. I I guess um yeah, this one is looking these used to be in the space for the table bar and now they're here and so this is numberable space, right? So this is ated upon and it used to be like this and the tables currently do that.

Yeah, it was the fence there. And this fence, like noon, so there's not one. There's some stairs that go down here in a bit different, but the egress has changed the straight instead of five. That looks like that. See how this come down down this way for this door and to the side for that door.

Maybe the Yeah, this one used to go this way. Um just trying to puzzle through it. So these tables, this seating area didn't exist prior to Cozy Corner. No, he did. Yeah, he hide away there. Well, not really because the photograph that we were looking at. Yeah, maybe maybe that's in the winter and he doesn't, you know, but the stairs are coming down this way in this photograph. The railing is there at an angle. Oh, there is a ra They're coming down.

Yeah, everything is the same. We did a Yeah, everything is the same. What we do, we had a fence right here. Yeah, the one that we got in Amazon. And then you have the stairs coming this way. Yeah. Yeah. So they used to go that way. No, no, they they go that way and this way and that way. So they just put a fence at the bottom basically at the bottom of the stairs there. So the stairs basically come down and dead end right here, but they're blocked. There's no Oh, they're blocked because there's another the stairs also. You have two sets of stairs, but you can only use one right now. Yeah.

Okay. I um I I guess the question is is that um I'm still not not sure what you're uh you're proposing as far as the awning goes. Um, so maybe we can just talk about that and get an idea because you do want to keep the the ex the u not the existing but a fence on either side. Am I correct? Is that Yeah, like I said, the fences are not a problem for me. If you want me to if you guys want me to take it out and take them down,

I can just take them down. Uh, okay. Um, so then the only thing that we're really uh should be talking about is the awning. The awning. And then how can I do to put back the uh the green thing on the wall in the future? The green shirt on the wall to put it back. I I think I have a heart. Yeah. I I don't think that's going to be possible. Okay. So, in terms of the awning, Emily, did you draw it on when she was explaining it? Yeah.

Can you can you confirm that that is Well, I guess the question is is that you said it's where the uh the fence is where it meets the wall, right? The other fence the paw fence. that fence. That's where it starts and it goes to midway between the two windows goes to here. Correct. Where the the co door stop. Yep. So, we're talking about this.

Correct. It literally only covers the proposed seating area, the that small area that that they use for tables. Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. Um, and and I have let me just ask the question because this is really neither here nor there because it doesn't really affect um the awning itself, but the street is is that you're on is north south. So you're placing uh the awning on essentially the east

the west.

So I think we all right but anyways I'm sure it sounds like you're aware of that. So in that position very often um people get awnings a lot of my business is because you have you're facing the west and that that little bit takes care of the sun and the heat. As far as the concern about the heat coming in, I I know this sounds like a used car salesman kind of thing, but it really does cool off inside of of a building when you have an awning. I mean, Sunsetter has done so many of those studies. They advertise it for that reason. I have people who have wine sellers who can't cool off the inside of their wine cellers because they're up against a west facing wall and they put an awning to cool off during the day. I mean that it's a great product. It really is.

But the primary goal is is sheltering the feeding area. I secondary is the interior because a solar blind can also interior. Yeah. And there's some films that work really well out that reflect the light um that are nonvisible.

And just so you know, I mean, this is just because I've been coming to Cold Spring my whole life. Okay? And one thing that I do notice over time and being someone who sells awnings now for the last 13 years is that sometimes they can get dirty or worn looking like you walk through town and you see some of that. Okay. with we give a full service warranty so we maintain the awning so it doesn't it doesn't get ratty looking. This is sumbrella material. It's made for boats. It holds up really well. Um I mean you know it's it one thing I will say is that they they didn't look for a cheap way out with this. they really went with the best product, the best material, the you know,

I think one of my concerns still for your client is based on the limitations of how far the awning can come out that the sun angles often will still hit the tables because it has to go the awning has to go past the table to be able to protect the table. And since we're limited, the table the seats currently will sneak off the sidewalk some. So the tables are very much on that property line. And if the awning is also only on the property line, then they're missing, you know, a few feet of clients. And so the clients are still going to have sun on them. And so my concern is that this is a large element and it might not have the impact that it's intended to have for the visual sacrifice that it's making for the facade.

Whereas the umbrellas are movable. Yeah. Tilt. And they're not permanent. And they tilt. also not necessarily as I you know they can't off the property. So similar and the thing is is that if you look at the the photograph and you know for example we're we're typically focused on this because this is where the awning is going to be but if you take a look at the next photograph you can see sort of a a a section

as to where the the umbrellas project out. Now, I would assume the umbrellas are up against the wall as tight as possible. You can see that they they overhang onto the sidewalk by what looks like at least a foot foot and a half. Right. Well, with the awnings, you wouldn't have that. I mean, with the umbrella, you can't make it shorter. You can't make it less wide. With a with an awning, you can. I think Al's point is that that extra width that's temporary actually helps shade his clients. And if the awning is limited, it won't be able to provide that service. Also, once it's installed, no one can police how far out it actually

that would be for me a requirement that it wouldn't it would have to be an awning that doesn't go out beyond the sidewalk because you'll see in these photos. This is a good example that the cafe is actually extending onto the sidewalk and it's a very narrow sidewalk and so people do have to be able to get past there, right? And there's garbage cans and such. And so that's absolutely something that can be set. I mean that's obviously, you know, that's that's one of the great things about these awnings. It comes one size and we set them to where the first the customer wants the maximum allowable. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

The other thing is that you don't with umbrellas. of relative take up floor space which allows more cra crowding where there's nothing touching the floor there. It'll just be the tables and pips. Okay. So, as far as the application goes, uh basically the uh the wooden fences on both sides to be removed, right? Yeah. The plastic greenery is removed. The wood floor tiles are also removed.

So, uh what what we are looking at right now is the awning. And we we know that the awning goes from here to midspan between this window and this window, right? and they're they're sitting on top of the the window. And uh I guess that the question is is that at its furthest projection will it be over the sidewalk? No. No. So, so that can be written into the approval if it is approved that can be written in that it needs to be um

limited limited and this is what this is the aluminum housing that it's retracts into correct it's very sleeve looking fluffy and it's white to I believe we have white yes to mount the house the building I wanted to bring a bracket this is one says cream but this is this is I want to use the fieldhouse substant ial it is. I'll tell you how it can now go onto the onto the building. We've been doing this for years. We go to the side. We drill a hole smaller than the leg screws. We fill it with silicone really well. Um for an awning this this small, we use two brackets. Um

seems like a good product. Yeah. Yeah. It's a question of exact application. Okay. So, do I have a motion? Well, what about the I I about the I mean, this is tricky because it's both a color and a pattern. And color is not our thing, but patterns. No. No. Um, and your previous email didn't also discuss signage before approving something new dress.

All right. Yes, we did. So, uh, well, let's finish with the awning and then we'll move on to the signage, right? I mean, I just Yeah, I have an issue with not having any um I I I kind of I have an issue with the pattern thing. The pattern? Yeah, I mean these are not none of these are well maybe the navy taupe stripe or the solids, but the others are very much not historic at all. So I don't know how we can get blanket approval to take your pick of any of these patterns for a fabric auding. We say that about color.

Well, color is I mean that's different. That's a changeable can be painted. And yeah, I also very much disagree with that, but that's just where we're at, right? And and the same thing with the awning. The awning is changeable, can't be replaced. I I think I think that uh a pattern is a combination of colors and I think that falls within that category. That's certainly one way to explain a pattern, but Okay. Is there a pattern that you're leaning toward? Yes. Which one is um Do you want me to get the book at the end? No. Um maybe

my card's right out front of the book if you

Well, I mean I stated my point of view stated his point of view. Kate and Kimberly, what do you think? I'm still con concerned that the location this application is so small that it doesn't feel warranted to cover the tables without the table competing on the sidewalk and it sort of adds to the facade's clutter and so I'm obviously there's a business um settling for policy approaching an awning at this location that wasn't intended to be a few of them were enhancing it an awning sidewalk that's five and then sort of irregular to the facade's makeup. So that's as far as I've gotten.

I I tend to agree with Kate. There's a lot happening inside of the service. Well, I mean what we're there is a lot happening now, but all of this is coming down and the only thing that is left is the awning back. Two egress doors and two egress stairs. It's a you're talking about all of the stuff that is there already. Yeah. The functional sort of mechanics of the building that are on the left side. Okay. So your objection is to the fact that there's a a sitting area there.

If they have a seating area there, I think that's up to them. I just enhancing it and making permanent structures to accommodate it feels and appropriate to the usage of that west facade.

Um, can I say one thing? I'm sorry. An awning is literally like an outdoor shade. That's what it is. It's a window shade that happens to go sideways instead of down. It's never there's a reason why in 99.9% of municipalities you don't need a permit for it. You don't for a home for a business because it's removable. I mean I have people put it on their house and one Marin Library decided they wanted to put it on another part of the library and we moved it and put it on another part of the library. It's it's a movable thing. It's literally, like I said, two brackets. Um, so I'm not trying to argue with you, but I I I mean, to me, it seems that there's so much stuff there now that's taking up space. When you take away umbrellas that have umbrella bases and all of that, it allows more room for the tables to be moved back towards the structure.

Yeah. I mean, I think that the as far as it being removable, Yeah. In theory, like yes, it it is movable. It is removable. I think that the bigger issue is that once something like this is installed, it also could be assumed to be permanently buy it if they weren't intending to use it permanently and active.

Sure. But here, 5 years from now, 10 years, 15 years from now, you know, once a thing is done to a building, it's very difficult to undo it. Um, so that's, you know, a new owner of the building that that does no maintenance to anything. You know, you start having features like this that could be left open, um, not taken care of, and then all of a sudden it's a much bigger problem. It's not just an umbrella that can be picked up and thrown in a dumpster. Um, yeah, but that that argument would apply to anything. It would apply to things being done or added to buildings,

things that are permanent rather than furniture. So I think the umbrella furniture, this is a permanent fixture on the facade of the building. Not too the side streets may typically you would find awnings on on a main street facade and not not a side street or a place that was originally intended to be a service. That's how I'm feeling with a narrow sidewalk already. It feels like with the HVAC units and the egress stairs, etc., that it's it's um a visually prominent feature that draws your attention to a service facade that should be left relatively in the mall.

Okay. Um, so with that, um, I'm going to call for a vote because it sounds like we've I've got three people who were going to vote against it, but for the awning, what what you're saying is there should not be any awning there. It's a hard thing to say because I think as business owners, we want to, you know, figure out solutions to certain issues. Um, but maybe there's there's another solution that doesn't uh warrant having an awning, but I don't necessarily want to vote if I address the other open items because

Well, the other item is signage, right? Yeah. Okay. But why? What? This has nothing to do with the signage. Okay. So, let's let's look at it as a separate issue because um you know uh I'd like to call for a vote on the application not as submitted but for uh the awning by itself. So Kimble, I think it adds a lot of clutter to the ride. What? I think it adds a lot of clutter to the

Okay. So, you're saying no, Todd? Uh, I would vote no as we stand currently on this. No, not at this time. Okay. And I vote yes. Okay. So, uh, the awning is not approved. So, let's talk about the signage.

Okay. What is the signage that we're talking about? email last.

So there are two signs this photo. You can see them in the photos. See one. There's one line. Yep. And then there's the one further that's perpendicular to the building plane. This one here. Right. That one is over the sidewalk. That one. Oh,

and this one. And then I think signs here. And then there's a third sign that's sitting um down on this fence beside it. That one, two, three.

Oh, there's You can't see it. There's a bracket here that extends on page four. Oh, there it is. I'm wondering and it predates these guys because I've seen it on Hudson Hills photo these two by members here between the post. I don't know if they're supporting this member and that member a sign used to hanging up of this member but it um breaks the articulation of the pledge. It's pre-existing this tenant. So I don't think

that was added on or something at some point. Hudson Hills had they had two signs. They had one sign here, but they had both of those numbers. Okay. One, two. Oh, okay. This one at the very end that's in a bracket. It's on a stable bracket. Okay. So, we're talking about one, two, three. It's um around the corner. Yeah.

Um Okay. Um and do I have any comments concerning the signage? It hasn't been applied for to start. So, I think we would need an application for the signage, right? Um and then specifically though well I since we have it here can we uh review it I mean we don't have we don't speak about content is basically construction and how it's attached to the building scale and scale as well.

Well um scale and size that that gets into a zoning issue. warning back in our perview to select the to help direct the signs out. Okay. And the fact that it's projecting over the sidewalk to that Well, that that's something that has to be by the village. And have you talked to the village at all?

No, I mean not for that. I mean, from experience, um, it's I think it would be helpful to talk to your building owner and get a site plan so you really understand where your property line ends and where the village property begins before you request the village um, to participate because Abby can speak to this, but I think it goes to a zoning meeting and then you have to put down like a $500 deposit just to meet with them. And so it quickly becomes difficult to understand if the sign is um I think there's also insurance requirements if it for projecting over the sidewalk very

you know it's not going to be on the sidewalk anymore and then you guys well yeah and ultimately that that is that is what you need to work out between you and the village uh and then we'll take a look at it. I I I guess, you know, I I think it sounds like you really need to talk to the village about the projecting sign. Okay. Um and um the the question I have for the board members, do we have any comments concerning the construction and the uh the way it's attached to

I think it's the prompty. There's three signs. I feel that there should only be one sign. Well, sorry. The thing is that um since it's two stores right there, the problem we had it's uh people think that it's only one restaurant and then in the other side is another restaurant. So that's why we put two signs, one in each side. So right now they all know it's all the same place. Um and also they used to have Hatsome Hills, they used to have two, one in each side as well. Yeah, I think well the other issue think that's

the other issue that I have is that you've got these menus that are mounted and and the question is whether or not that is in fact considered signage or yes that was there when we got the the Disney I would say it is considered signage but it does predate them right

but as an overall visual package I think it should be considered Right. Well, the the you know, and I think that there are issues that you need to deal with as far as uh the size of the signage because uh I I think that there is nothing in our our ordinance that talks about uh size. There is there is stuff in the village code that in the in the village code. I know. We don't we don't enforce the that part of the village code, right? We make we make aesthetic,

right? Well, our concern is is primarily uh the construction of the sign and how it's attached to the bille. It has to be the size. I don't know how you can how we can not consider size if you just they came out. Yeah. like a 10 foot wide sign hanging down between

we look back because I I I I have sat through a lot of codew writing sessions where this was discussed and ultimately that was the compromise because uh the issue was is that there's there are zoning regulations dealing with size and that is not something that we deal with and and it was specifically deleted from or any mention of that was deleted. So then the suggestion is to go through the zoning board to get

well yeah I think you need to talk to uh the village uh especially if you have this uh can you know the projecting bracket and and that is something which you can uh you know if you want to pursue because I I have to agree with Todd I think that there is an insurance payment that they're looking for. So you can look at that. Um, and also, uh, the business about the, uh, the menus being re rejected, I think is also signage. I'm just having gone through this myself, I'm concerned that if we punt him to a different um board that he's all of a sudden looking at some formalities and some sort of prohibit potentially prohibited cost considerations in order to get a sign up and I thought that signage is in our purview so that we can have these conversations and work out aesthetic say for being on village property but that

okay well the the thing is is that ultimately you're uh the questions that you're raising have to do with the size the size of the signs cumulative size the quantity yeah okay so but the thing is is that we don't have any purview over that so uh I would rather that he go and talk to whoever he has to talk to as far as the village goes and determine if all of these signs are in fact allowed.

Section 104 of the code signs and pockets. And this might not be the answer, but 1043. Well, look look at look at chapter 64. I'm on it right now. This references the HDRB and it says signage shall be included in any site plan review or special use permit review. However, when site plan specialist permit review is not required, proposed signage requires a building permit and se certificate of appropriateness from the historic district review board. So unless it's requesting a site plan review or special use permit that would go to the planning board, it's on us to review the signage. There's not another body that would review the signage. Well, I

I think whereas almost everyone that wants to sign besides is contingent on the zoning board's approval and then that's like months and thousands of dollars for the sign up. That seems counterintuitive what we're doing. Does everyone require zoning board review, right? Well, I I don't know. I don't know how that they're they're enforcing the signage requirements under that particular chapter.

Only those that protrude over certain distance. So I think it's past 12 in then they get a referral to go to the zoning board of appeals for example Kate's sign. But I think if the signage is outside a certain range then a variance is required to see the zoning board of appeals but you guys are the only ones that determine the the approval of the visuals of the sign. So, if you could condition approval on um on getting a variance andor approval from the zoning board of appeals if you feel

if it's a foot over I think establishing that foot requires a um uh site plan right so that we know because potentially part of his property line owners owners on the property line is further than we think and then that but is not an issue in my building. I just need to get it to be one is but All right. But even so, ultimately he needs to go to the the village and it could be the zoning board to make a determination if he has too many signs. I I can take one out. I can take the one in the corner which

it's hanging right there. I can take it out. I just you know why if we have why does the quantity assign soda to them

the way that I understand and this this goes back to before they changed it. The way I understood is the total uh square footage of the signs is dependent on the uh the well it used to be dependent on the size of the of the window. So that's still I because I was just rereading the code. So if it's a um if it's a sign on the window then it has to be less than 30% of the overall uh window glass area. If it's a sign on the facade of the building, it has to be a half the linear feet of the building. Let's say it's 20 feet. The sign has to be half of that in cubic feet or square feet. Yeah. So, a 20 foot facade would mean a 10 um where does it stay then?

That's in 104. Okay. And so that that who enforces that? I think when we're approving the signs, we know the code and so we don't approve something that doesn't match this code. I don't think that's why would we approve something that doesn't match code? be because we we could we can approve something with the uh the provision that uh that's true. If you want an extra big sign and we feel like it's a medically okay, we can prove it and say this does not need zoning. So, you have to go to zoning in order to get a building permit to build this thing. And if people are like, well, I don't want to do that, then we should help them find a way. But what you're what you're saying right now is you think that there are too many sides.

Yes. Okay. So then we we we're not going to approve anything, right? Um well, there we could advise that this wouldn't have been approved if it had been applied for. Well, okay. All right. Adjustment without zoning. Well, but that that's the whole point. If there if there are too many signs, then that's a zoning issue. Is that not the case? I don't know. That is the only issue. Well, whoever enforces that uh section 104 or chapter 104.

So, if this building is 40 ft across, they're potentially allowed 20 linear feet of um I know, but we're not enforcing that. No. And this looks like it doesn't go over that 20 linear 20 linear feet. It's just zoning is is responsible for a number of signs. Is there it's a square it's correct. And they're not they're not they are within they are within zoning on the square footage of signs. So it's quantity of signs and zoning for historic character. I think we're saying three signs is is adding visual clutter to the building and is

and Romero said he's fine to take the one of the signs away. So, we are left with the two signs on the main street facade and working. And what what about the uh the menus? I don't have a problem with the menus personally before

and they would be considered a fourth sign, but I think as far as the zoning, you know, linear square foot requirement, it would fit in. And I think I also feel like they're it's white for now. It's white. uh and they were there before and they're relatively non-obtrusive and maybe that's fine. If we remove one sign, flip the other one, the circular, and keep the larger hanging one, then we get a cleaner aesthetically cleaner building.

Okay. So, you're you're proposing uh some revisions which you feel would then make it acceptable as far as the village as far as the HDRB. I think so. And if he loves the signs perpendicular to the building because it does draw your eye up from below, those are helpful. Then he can go to zoning and request that and he can let us know now if he wants us to make it contingent, you know, approval if it Well, okay. But then that's an is a sign. We've got four signs actually. One, three.

Well, three. And I'm gonna get rid of the third one. So, we got two two signs and then the menu board. And the menu board. Yep. Okay. So, you're you're willing to remove the projecting sign. He's willing to remove this one. This one, right? Yep. And then the projecting sign, he was willing to turn the circle so it's um hanging. We can discuss the placement but hanging um parallel to the building rather than per perpendicular which would send it over the street front which would require the zoning. Okay. All right. How is it how is the sign going to be hung parallel with the facade?

Well, I can uh I can just instead of putting like that just put it like that. But I got to I got to see it now. I got to see the visual brackets might need to be adjusted. Yeah. So maybe instead of the hanger, the hanger would need to go. I can talk with the uh you know, village code and see if that's okay because I believe it's right under the roof. So it might be our property there. It's not the sidewalk. But I can, like I said, I can talk to them and see what they said. Okay. So the question now becomes uh what is it that we are looking to take a vote on as far as the signage goes

to retroactively approve a revised version of the current signage. Okay. Both are parallel with the building in between the two the the and deleting this one. Correct. Okay. Um All right. Do I have a motion as far as signage goes? Well, he was just saying though that this this bracket it extends underneath this this set on the roof. It

does, but I think it extends past the Yeah. So we could do it we could do a two version where one is we approve it without going to zoning if you rotate it and then if you well all all of this is going to be subject to the zoning. I mean the issue as far as how many signs he has and and whether or not they're all approved. That's that's not something that we can approve. So, does he in order to keep his signs, are you saying he needs to go to zoning no matter what? Well, I I would think so. Significant thing to do.

I I know. Well, that one section of that chapter 104, it references us. I I know but all it says is that that uh a certificate of appropriateness which is true of any signage we always because we need to review it for certificate of appropriateness but but that doesn't mean that we enforce that chapter there's nothing in chapter 64 that says that we enforce that. Did you find anything Todd that we are responsible for enforcing chapter 104? No.

Yeah. Even one sign that people have to go to zoning. So every time go through but but ultimately that's going to be whoever enforces 104. I mean honestly to me this feels like if if it is in violation we we we Romero has has agreed is willing to have the sign hanging parallel with the building between the posts it's not on village property that's willing to

if this is the easiest path forward you are willing to do that. Um in my opinion if this is if if the quantity or the overall square footage of signage is not compliant with zoning we are not the zoning board. We have issued our violation based on our own design standards and our own purview. It's up to someone on zoning or planning to to say something or Yeah, that's my opinion. So, we are approving like ultimately who who uh enforces the zoning regulations

enforcement. Would I can I suggest you guys table the sign issue until um Romero gains further clarity on the signage, clarifies what he's going to remove on paper, and submit some kind of dimensional analysis as as to what's going to stay according to the code that you guys don't have to figure this out. And at the next meeting, you can just proceed to approve or reject. Is that acceptable to you? I guess usually I'd say but then you have to wait a month and you'd have to come back. But it seems that they're up. So we should they're up until he comes back, right? Is that right? I think that's a good idea. You want me to move the signs until we come back? Yeah. Yeah.

So basically just a an analysis of four signs and including the the menu case as a sign, the dimensions of the dimensions of the sign and I guess specifically whether the projecting out unless you are just going to just change that. But if you are interested in leaving it, we would need to know whether that actually is overhanging village property or if it's on um within I guess the bounds of the

Yeah. Ultimately, what you need to do is you need to talk to law enforcement and have them make a determination as far as how much signage you can have and then uh come back with that specifically and we'll we'll review that. [Music] And is there a way for us by next month to maybe align or maybe not as much as the number of signs because I'm really worried that it's already challenging for people who are opening the store to make sure they're by the book to get their signs up and if we're just sending them to the zoning or planning that they're um the financial and the time implications are significant. I don't want to send anyone that doesn't need to get the ability to do as much as we can to get something that's visually appropriate low cost quick turnaround. Well, I I think that uh I I don't know how you can uh set certain guidelines as far as the number of signs.

Well, okay. Chapter 104-3 number A. It says one sign. Okay. Only one SM only um one sign. Okay. Smaller than one square foot is permitted per property, but that's specific to building permit. Sorry, that's specific to which is all nice and good, but okay.

Ultimately, what we're reviewing is the HDRV aspects of it. So, if you if you want to look at what our regulations say and then you can, you know, you can come up with what we would be looking for. It says types of work subject to HDRB review and it says roofing, sighting material, blah blah blah blah, light fixtures and signs, right? Like we definitely that signs is our purview and we learn we have like three days to review them,

right? Chapter 64. Chapter 64 has a section specifically for science and it doesn't say anything about quantities just the quantities what's triggering it to go to a different well the quantities I I don't want to get into that discussion because ultimately that's not really our discussion unless we feel that uh there is a uh impact on historic preservation or historic is it appropriate for historic buildings not

okay because I think that was just the conversation we're having with this building that three signs of tyranny for this building and basically advise them if you're saying we don't have the right to do that but they can only have one sign or go to the zoning board then that's that's how we would move forward in the future with well I I think that you know yes we we can sit there and tell them that we think that one sign would be more appropriate but uh I wouldn't want to sit And you know just in instructions say if you know uh if you have more than one sign we will automatically reject it. No. No. Yeah. Okay. That's not so then

we can approve one and if you want more than one you've got to go to the zoning. Is that what you're saying? And no I'm I'm saying if you exceed what's uh what is allowed by zoning then you need to go to zoning. Okay. All right. And ultimately that's not our call. That's the uh building and so we need to know what is allowed by zoning in order to inform the applicant so they understand the significance of triggering a zoning review. Okay. I don't want to send someone to zoning if they have a solution to avoid it. We don't send them to zoning ultimately. That's his call.

If it was my store and I was going to put up two signs and you knew that the second sign would require $500 plus and three months, I'd say, "Okay, never mind. Thank you for telling me. Please just prove it's one sign. All right, that's what I want. But see, see the thing is is that ultimately this runs into a problem that we have consistently had over the years because we have more than one board. We have three boards. We have uh HDRB zoning and and uh planning board and uh very often a lot of the applications have to go to m multiple boards. So which one do they go to first? This is

that is something that we should in the past what it had been it was a call on the part of the building inspector. The building inspector reviewed the application and told them which board they should go to first. That makes sense. So as long as Abby and the village team is able to say the way that you have this designed for fire zoning or planning, you'll need to change it if you just want HOB review. That works for me. It's just not having someone go through the process and get stuck halfway through.

Yeah. No, I I definitely understand and I think um a lot of times especially with this um this example it had not seen the building inspector therefore it had not prompted a referral to the zoning board but it has happened before where something has come here. But I think Kate was just attempting to communicate that if they if you guys are the first point of contact familiarize yourself with the code so that you can

except except I don't want to get into that because we have gone to that for example uh there was an instance where uh an applicant uh came in and he said I want to do this on this building and and we're going to do all this renovation who what and where and there were a whole bunch of zoning uh ordinances that they were violating. And ultimately they went to that to the zoning board and they shut them down. And then they turned around and they want were talking about suing us because they thought they had permission from the historic district review board in order to proceed with this. Then at the last minute the zoning board uh shoot you know shoots them down. So it it needs to be we need to keep clear of directing people to other boards.

Okay. Yeah. I mean it seems like the code enforcement officer who is issuing the referral should be the one to refer the application to the correct place. Yeah. All right guys. So you got the hammer. All right. Uh where I lost my agenda. 72 Main Street. 72 Main Street is there on the

72 Main Street is right. Speaking of signage,

we are on Zoom. Hi everyone. Hi.

Yeah, it's just like I'll let me just jump in from the notes I have and can tell me what I'm I'm missing something. Yeah, sure. Interpreting something. But from my understanding um and from the visuals that we have, the original brick was painted and according to our um guidelines, alterations that replace or conceal original detail such as brick detract from building's inherent character and should not take place. So the brick was painted and then signage for 72 main for out.

Oh, the signage for 72 main um for Nobody's Deli, the way that um the code reads is that each building shall be limited to a total sign area and I think the language that you all have provided uh aligns with this. Each building shall be limited to a total sign area of one square foot in area for every two linear feet of public street frontage occupied by the front plane of the principal building used by an establishment. And so in this case the principal building for nobody's deli is about 17 feet across which then

18 feet. I'm not you know let's say then it would be nine feet wide and a foot tall. If it's shorter than a foot tall, it could be a bit wider, but that's sort of what nine square feet of signage. 9 square feet of signage. And so there's currently a sign above the door which has to get taken into account. Um, and then there's also this additional sign that's painted on historic brick. Yeah. And so that's what we're up against, I believe. Okay. And our part of it is has to do with the fact that previously the brick was not painted. Correct. And now it's painted

and the and clearly the amount of square footage of signage because it's that currently on the brick is painted roughly 30 square feet of signage. So it's like the painting of the brick and then the addition of signage of that magnitude painted onto the brick. So it's it's I mean I guess yes you can still it down to just painting of the brick but it's twofold. Yeah. And and and see according to their analysis, it's they're within the size allowance because they're considering frontage of the entire lot, which is 67 code frontage of the primary.

Again, that's not our something that we get into. That's not part of our discussion. Our discussion has to do with the fact that the brick was not painted before and now it's painted. We can start there. Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's no way um there's no way that this board would ever have have approved painting of this historic wreck. Hands down. Like, it would have been a five to no no vote. Um so, and in my opinion, the only remedy is removing the paint from the brick.

But you're never going to get the patina that the brick has. Um, you you you don't. But then at least the paint is removed from the brick. I mean, do you understand why we don't want the brick painted?

Uh, yes. Um, so Brian, nice to meet you all uh and connect with you all here. Um, my tenant painted. So I'm I'm the owner of the building. The tenant is nobody's deli as the sign is pretty evident in uh describing. Um, in terms of the painting of the wall, I wasn't aware of that and the issue here. I'm happy to undergo the removal of the the painting on the brick. Um, that had, you know, based on some prior understanding, I thought that was allowed from a prior conversation with a prior HDRB member, but if it's not, I I'm trusting your interpretation and direction here. Um, happy to have the paint removed from the brick. And then I think if that's step, we'll call it step A in the process. You know, this sort of goes to the point you were making before, would love to just get guidance so that whatever sign gets put back in place is, you know, done right so that we sort of get it right on the next go, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Right. I I I think that we would we would request that the paint be removed and and it's you have to understand the the the logic behind it and I I think in our guidelines it goes into that quite a bit because uh basically uh paint is a film which covers uh brick brick uh by it in and of itself is porous and will absorb water. And so what what will happen and you can see that on most painted brick walls is that after a while the paint starts blistering and and popping off. Mhm.

Uh basically the uh I'm trying to think if there is there there are some materials some uh solvents which uh would remove most of the paint and the issue becomes removing the paint without damaging the brick face underneath. So, uh, with that and and in reality, that's the only thing that we really need to deal with in this particular, uh, application. So, do I have a motion concerning, uh, the painted wall at 72, uh, Main Street?

I just I do have to say there are other painted brick buildings on Main Street. There there are yeah and and as far as I know no none of them have ever come to the HDRB concerning their sorry some might predate the HDRB but it's explicit in the guidelines so I don't think we want to perpetuate the problem. Do I have a So this application is not specifically applying to remove the paint though. Is that does that how are we phrasing? Well, th this this has to do with the painted sign

and what we're saying is that we want to have the paint removed. We are saying that. Yes. And may I just ask the just so again going back to sort of and then is that so that's we'll call it the the pain or the plane of gray paint that is sort of like the background that creates a canvas and then just to show you for reference what the the building right so all of the brick all the way across was was raw so that's all

perfect and so so happy to do that and then Is there an allowance for painting the sign itself in some fashion? So what is there now? I can't picture. There is a sign. There is another sign, right? There's a sign on the across the front, right? On the sort of awning, right? Within the right. And and the thing is is that and ultimately that's what we don't especially want to get involved in as far as I talking about size of the sign. That that is

Aby's hammer. If Brian is asking if it would be okay to paint some version of a sign on the brick. I think we Oh, that's what you're asking. That correct? That's the the question I was attempting to ask. No. Yeah. Okay. I think I I thought the answer on the wood I think is right. And if you want to uh put up another sign and attach it to the brick wall, right, that would be acceptable. We'd have to take a look at it and again we get into the issue about size of the sign but I think that we don't want a sign that is painted on the brick.

Okay. Okay. Except I am I am pre-stating a judgment that we're making. So do I have a a motion concerning this application or the sign? Uh, I would move to approve the removal of the paint. Why don't we It's not in the application, so I don't know what we're Well, uh, no. Why don't we say that the motion is uh to not approve the sign as applied and require that the paint be removed? I would make a motion to

disapprove of the current application and to require the paint be removed from all of the brick. Okay. A second. Second. Okay. This time we'll I I Okay. Four. All right. So, that's the

And just for clarity, it's the I just want to make sure the wording is correct here. So you're you're not disapproving of the all the other things that happened just you're saying hey there's a sign here that got painted after it went in operation you know after the uh deli went in operation the tenant painted a sign and it got brought up on I guess code enforcement you've weighed in and said hey we don't like this sign please have the paint removed so I think that right now we are talking paint about the painted brick So technically the sign is part of it but it is more

right just the paint. Yeah. Sorry I shouldn't have used the word sign but the rest of the renovation I mean I didn't think they did a good job in fixing up the front of the building and all and I don't think we have anything to say. Okay. I guess that's what I was the the phrasing you used sounded like you were disapproving of everything you know like we dis because this application was basically to after the fact approve the Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Removal of the paint. Okay. Great. Thank you.

And I will do my best to I'll investigate and research some methods for, you know, the methods of paint removal that will do the least uh damage, you know, and try to do it in uh and bring it back to the character had in kismmet era. The thing to to to uh investigate is the type of paint that they used. oil based paint, then you're going to need something that's solvent that will build the paint. So, I think yeah, I'll I'll have to research. Okay. Thank you, Brian.

Yeah. Um, and then regarding the sign above the awning, that is not purview here. Well, it is our purview, but the sign I I guess uh that was something that we I mean they should apply for that as well. Yeah, if we're we're except a little bit of a backlog building to building. And so I think our goal is fair and consistent with everyone. Um, and that's

I I think I think um just to sort of make sure we've got all the vases covered. If they can submit an application for this is a wooden sign on the it's painted. It's painted on the wood letters on the pre-existing historic wood awning. Correct. Okay. Yeah. I have an I have an image that I I can like put up on the screen if that's helpful. Be helpful. Those are letters attached to the to the wood. They just painted on the wood directly. Correct. Yeah.

I think uh here you go. In case this is helpful. Yeah. And eyeballing it, it seems to be less than the way less ratio that's required. All right. And and the thing is is that you know what that they didn't make any material change to the substrate. They just painted I think it's fine. Yeah. So, yep. That's good. That's okay. Okay. What? So, just to make sure. So, I'm gonna work on uh investigating the brick painting removal stuff. Move

pointing out like I think it is a it's we're so grateful that you're going to sort of remediate with the brick that our my joking blas approved is is sort of a nod to that. And I think looking at design above the door is aesthetically appropriate and apparently scaled appropriately. And so I if we'll formalize it, I vote to approve the sign above the door as designed. Well, I I will disagree with you only to the extent that it's a painted sign on existing. Technically, they're not in our not in our purview. Anyways, you're good. Thank you.

I may just while I'm here, I'll just say the following. You know, I I bought a number of properties along Main Street and I I really am trying to do everything I can. I I love where I live. It's it is an amazing community. I call, you know, and I'm trying to do everything I can buy the books and follow things and bring things back to historic standard. If there are ever any concerns, confusion or things, please don't hesitate to, you know, reach out either, you know, through the board or even just on the side directly just to say, "Hey, this thing you're doing here, maybe the the board would take issue with it." I will mention that there was some confusion last week around some things happening down at 37 Main Street, which is down at the bottom of the hill, the infamous Tyvec building, um, of of many years. Um, and I think we cleared that up with the code enforcement officer. He had made some assumptions understandably that we had put new sighting on top of the Tyveck when we hadn't. We removed the Tyveck and we just painted and repaired the existing historic sighting. And then

we're talking about the yellow building. The Yes. I I did a color analysis that QR code uh survey fund was me. Um yeah, it's just the east facade that is questionable with wind some windows have been removed and

so we so all of that so none of that is work that we've done just for clarity that was when we the when the asbestous sighting was removed right when that sighting was removed the it opened up and showed window holes that were there underneath that we didn't put in we haven't added or put anything in. I actually just got I think from Abigail today or maybe it was yesterday my referral for coming to see you all for the window plan on 37. I can tell you in advance. I'm matching existing windows. I think they fit exactly with inside the historic district uh you know standards and design guide. That's my goal. My plan um is to match the uh you know the same window sizing painting. I am relocating a few of the windows and I know this is not the actual hearing, right? This is justformational, but um if you have any advice or questions, please ask now, but I am realigning them to create a a better symmetry on the side of the building. Often windows are put in where it's like easiest. I I studied architecture myself. Often they're sort of done for like what works best inside, but it has sometimes a negative chaotic feel on the outside of a building. And so we are we've rearranged uh the window plan so that it is a nice symmetrical three on top of three with alignment in our submission uh for you.

So that's the plan the tenant. We do we do they've asked to keep it uh they've asked we all want to know though but I but I I did what I will say and you know I spoke to quite a number of you know friends around the village and whatnot as well as some of the I your fixtures when you bring in the application if you could just have um you know whatever's exterior fixtures railings. Yep. So we can outlet like boxes happening.

Yep. I I will mention that we're going to sort of do two phases. One phase will be windows uh sconces outlets um and then otherwise just sort of repairing existing doors uh that are that are in there now. And then phase two will be um a new porch, railings, surfacings, that kind of stuff. I was actually chatting with the with John and the construction crew that was there sort of digging up the corner for the new um uh accessible corner thing, and he's going to drop off for me the paver stones that have been used in other places up and down Main Street. um so that I can hopefully match that for all my stuff uh as well.

Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah, thank you everyone for your time here. Is there anything else you need from me? No. No. And we appreciate your attention to the details. Yeah,

I will. Uh trying to keep my mom and dad proud. Um thank you everyone. Have a great night. Thanks for doing what you do as well. Um actually can I say one more thing sort of on record here for a minute? Um I'll just mention there was um the article in the current a week ago, week and a half ago around some of these issues and I did respond to the reporter who reached out regarding the sign um post and you know I I wrote an email I uh along the lines of I really do appreciate the people who donated and volunteer their time and put effort into helping us achieve these things which are standards. You know, I'm I'm the weird guy that's suggested uh to Kathleen and some of the other uh trustees that like even considering like not mandatory paint color choices and palettes, but suggested opt in if you want so that we have cohesion amongst paint colors.

I like that. So, so like that's who I am and I think you're doing great stuff. So, keep doing it. Um and thank you for being in here and putting in the time. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Have a great night. You too. Okay. connect. Okay, Erica Peski, come on down. Hello. We're not Erica. I'm not Erica now, but I associate. Okay, I just want to kick this off by saying I also appreciate everything you guys do. Thank you. Thank you for watching. Hey.

Okay. So, existing chain. Yeah, this was there to site time are historic chain link fences. Yeah. Sorry. Glad to see that go. I know. Okay. So, what are you proposing in L? Oh, okay. The only I think technically a rear fence is um all in your rear yard, not in your sideyard. We don't we don't have a sideyard. Yeah. Like just an alleyway. It's basically this is the only um way.

So, it's the back corner of the house and then shifts back. Yeah. Right. the the the failing fence, the fence that you're proposing, this is a black and white, so it doesn't show, but it's touching the backyard corner of your house at this. Oh, I guess the the edge of the enclosed porch are just next to it. So, run across the porch. So, it does technically go down the side of the house, but this is the ridiculous shape of our houses. Like, that's how it's like less than a foot between the houses. So, it does kind of run down the back of there, but you can't see. No one can see it. Yeah. Um down this side it does run up to like just the back of the house there. Yeah. So it's it it doesn't go beyond. Okay. This is your site plan, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So basically what you're talking about is from here to here to there. I think he's saying the also around the front. No. No. No. To the back of it. This is highlighted, right? Isn't this kind of highlighted? Yeah. Yeah. What what I was saying is it it runs a little bit of the way down the the left hand side, but it's a side where there's less than a foot between the houses, right? Oh, it's not visible to anybody. Right. Well, I just on the on the the side plant. Yeah. Start there. Yes. And it goes all the way to the end. Correct. And then it goes across over here. Correct. Now, does it go down this side?

No. All right. So, just from here to here to to there. This is the corner of their house. His house and there go along the side of the enclosed porch. Uh, yeah. I mean, it does technically, like I say, go all the way down that side even in here. No. No, that's what you're saying. No, the part of it runs. So what what I'm saying is that we have a ridiculous situation here where there's enough, right? We might as well be an attached property. It's less than a foot. So part of it does run.

So is it where this red mark is? Um it runs a little bit into the into that. Is there a reason for that or would it be cut short? Like we just get rid of it. Some money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it will be pulled out. I think if it ends at the corner the porch, we won't be building a fence down there. No. To answer your question though, the current fence does run further away, but we just so we can pull it out and just where the two houses. Yes. Touch. That's you can just block it off or do whatever. So, it's

okay. I I I guess the question is in um uh typically and and I think this is what's in the design guidelines talks about running from post to post to post. This is from face to post. Yeah. I think the only thing here though is that I I don't see a way where it's even visible because this whole street, all these backyards also slope, don't they? Yeah. So, they slope downward towards Garden Street. Mhm. Yeah. It slopes down. There's a creek at the back and then it

I don't even see how because the only the only way you see it is through the right side where there is no fence. So you would if you could see anything it would be just the far far far back corner right. So is it even visible? Well I I guess the the question is is that this is and the reason for the the business about the post is that uh what we see here is what is visible to your in your yard. Right. Well, well, we will see that your neighbor neighbor will be seeing just posts and and uh the

uh I mean technically the neighbors. Yeah, um that is something we've discussed. I think there's a way of So you say so the um the panels being in front of the post rather than post to post, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. And and you know the the reason that we went to that is that it it is it is equally the uh image or the the view is the same on both sides. Yeah. Um is that part is is does the code cover that or is that a an agreement between us and the design guidelines?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think we'd be open to post be open post I guess it increases well I if one of the things which our design guidelines say is that um the rear yard and I think in this particular case the side that you're talking about um can be a palisade uh fence but typically the uh uh the palisate fence that we're talking about the the posts are visible and the panels are between the posts.

Are they sandwiched in between? Well, and you know or something? Well, uh no. I I mean the the fence is in fact a panel and the panel is attached to each at each end to the post

and sorry just and I'm reading some of the code here. important sentis in advance repair. The posts are meant to be internal to the property with the sort of finished side facing out. Right? That's whenever you build event. The sort of structure is internally and the pretty side is out to your neighbors. And so this says rails and pickets should not be applied on outward facing sides of post but rather hung between post. So the post are fully exposed. You're saying facing the middle. Um, rails and pickets should not be applied on outward facing sides of posts. So, wouldn't it be okay if this is facing out structure internal?

I have don't have any issue with that. I kind of go back to the fact that you literally are not going to see this at all. So well no I mean but but if the if the compromise is to have the post on 17 churches property and this facing the neighbor um I mean that is what is the standard standard. So I so that would meet the standard but alternatively we could do post to post horizontal post to post. That's the that's the other alternative. Okay. Where the where the horizontal members are in between the two posts. Yeah. And then then both sides. Yeah. So I get that. Okay. Um, and as far as

would be amanable to that what would be would be amanable to those, you know, having the posts and running the panels between the posts or that or having having the posts on our side so that the neighbors get the aesthetically pleasing side, I guess you could say. And and this is uh considered a side a side yard. It's considered a rear yard according to the document the diagram that is the height four feet or six feet and they're requesting five feet, right? You're Yeah.

So I think we we were concerned about that but it's a close sideyard issue. I'm okay with either of those two options given the visibility or lack of visibility. Can I just be just so I'm crystal clear on so the the purview of this of the historic ports well perview so extends beyond what's visible from the street. So when it's our yard design guidelines still they take certain fences. Yeah. Or fences. Correct. Right.

Um, and I guess you know the question really is is that uh what's down here? Uh, like a stream. A stream. A seasonal stream. Yeah, it's a stream. Okay. And And is there another uh property on the other side? I think that's on the Garden Street, right? Yeah, that's the backs of Garden Street. Yeah. Okay. Well, so then you know basically it would be visible from uh you know the neighbor, right? I mean

interest configuration, right? It's an anomaly in the grid where you have the stream running through. So that's village property and then the next property I'm not sure which just Um, if you were to ask for a seven foot fence, that would not be us. Or in the front yard, something larger than four feet. Yeah. So, if it goes over what's allowed in village code able to set up? Yeah, I think I'm happy with five. I don't think we want it any bigger than that. We like our neighbors. Kind of want to see them.

Yeah. That's good for life, right? I I guess my only question is is that uh what is the logic uh as far Well, okay. Are we willing to uh you know to u allow variation from what is in our guidelines as far as the fence goes?

I think when when it is um it depends on the situation. I think when it is a prominent building on Main Street, um that is treated very differently in my mind than a backyard that is really nearly invisible from any public right of way. I think that's consistent with allowing um the rear of not Pepson Hills, but one building up to have cable right railing and another building that we've recently allowed to have cable railing that's technically visible from another street. But we're talking about cable railing on a guard rail, not a fence.

It's different, but it's a consistent like a modern aesthetic. Uh, and in this case, I think looking at a stock image of a saki fence versus this fence, I think this is much more appealing. This is to me non-offensive and specific to their property and um not visible from the public facade and um not deteriorating the existing conditions of their historic homes. Well, okay. And and there there is some precedent for this sort of thing because the crops have a fence like that on Drive. Huh? On Craig Side Drive. No, on Market Street. What is the address?

Um 27 28. No. Um Yeah. The threec car garage one. Yes. The the threecar garage which I said was going to look like a storage unit. And that's exactly that's exactly what it looks like. It used to be a used to have garage doors and now it's a story unit. Here's a fence and it's 4 feet and it's it's horizontal. Horizontal. One at the end of first street as well within your jurisdiction. No, it's like the very end. It depends how far.

Yeah. Not right at the end. It's one of the houses on the right hand side. if you're walking torch. Um, little standing point I think on the front on the front. Yeah. Before you get to um the condos. Yeah. Kind of opposite um uh Dan and um they just moved. Dan Kelly. Dan and Kelly. Yeah. our perview. Oh, they're not in the Oh, they pull out. You're right. There's modernist house, but not in our per whatever. Are we okay with

precedent? Two scenarios. One, the posts being on the property owner's property or the slats being between the posts. I am okay with that personally. and and moving the fence down and moving the fence to the corner of the house rather than the alleyway. We'll just be removing any chain of fences down there. Uh I I'm not okay with it, but I I think you've got a vote. You've got the the vote here. And I I still think that I I'm not totally sure that this is appropriate to the district. The horizontal the bottom.

Yeah. I didn't think it was appropriate there. I mean, and that and that's a that's an extremely visible situation. It's very much not that. I know. And and if you and I voted against it, then I'll vote against it. I would make a motion to approve the application uh with the fence ending at the corner of the house and either being installed with the posts on the interior side or slats running between the posts. Okay, I expected that. Okay. Um, really? Hi.

Hi. No.

And you won't ever see I know I I live with a lot of things that I voted against and and and you're still here. Yeah. You're still here. Wow. his you know that that annoys but anyways. Okay. Hey, thank you very much. A long laugh. All right. Thank you. Oh man. Can we move? Can we Al, can we not do you right now since we have people here? 14 14 Main Street.

Be amazing. Oh gosh. Thank you. Yep. I have goodies. Okay.

All right. My name is Isabelle. This is my sister. Hi. And we are here to talk to you guys about quarantine trees. Um so signs again. So, um, in the folder is a copy of our email. Do you have the extra copies of the permit of the referral? I don't have that. Yeah, it should be on the table. We have We have Okay. Here's a picture of the proposed where the banner will go. Okay. Down there.

Yeah. Um, and when you say banner, what is the material? It it will be vinyl. Yeah. Um Okay. And what keeps it in place?

Um um so it will be securely fastened with two existed vertical porch columns. We'll be using heavy duty weather resistant groomments and reinforce cord. So, one thing that we were just again, I'm not sure if this was now our perview, but um four feet by three um 3/4 of a foot. I just learned that as I

Yeah, the size would need I believe that your wide enough and it would need to be modified. I believe again now I formerly thought that was our realm. If it's not it would go to someone else but my gut is that would be a special request if you want to make it larger than um that I would really appreciate that. So we are not on we're not a the typical storefront. We are we are in and out. Um and originally we had to shift the design of our sign because we're hoping to be open by September 1st which is why we chose vinyl. So yeah, if the sign could be bigger, I would very much love that.

Um, so I think I'm saying that if if we approve it, the sign as size currently would have to be approved by um zoning because I believe that this is too big to be approved unless it's a temporary sign. Is that correct? So, we originally filed for a temporary um sign and we were told that you guys don't do that. Yeah, I think the vinyl too is something that we wouldn't normally um but it was I am happy to modify the sign right now

a fix to the building um or somehow hanging um from the porch will I think prefer natural materials although we've been open to others. I can pull off the I haven't reviewed the application yet. Do you have signs, banners, and flags that are exempt from HDRB review temporary signs? Any sign, banner, or flag in place for more than 30 days is not considered temporary and must comply with design guidelines and zoning regulations. So if it was a 30-day or less situation, um it would be you.

So the original sign take about 6 months because it's being caring wood. I wanted to do right by Gold Spring and do right to my brand. It's going to take about 6 to 8 months and it's it's not even being made here. It's been made in Brazil. So, we thought of the banner as a way of allowing people to know where we are. Okay. And I guess, you know, the question I would have is that uh the permanent sign is the same size.

No, it's smaller. Um I don't have the measurements in front of me, so I don't want to speak out of turn, but it's definitely smaller. All right. Um because I guess my question is is that is there any reason why we can't shift it over so it's centered on Oh yeah. Yeah, we can. If that was just me playing with the computer and I'm not very good at it, you know, it will be centered. Okay. And it could be significantly smaller if it needs to. But if it's going to be there for 6 months, then it would be considered a permanent. So, right.

Yeah. Well, well, and the thing is is that um Okay. Um may I ask if I

Well, if if if the the the wood sign is going to be smaller, can you can the banner be the same size as the wood sign? Um, I don't see why not. I'm happy to shift the size of the banner. I'm also happy to present a different application with a sign within 30 days. Um, I'm just really hoping to by September 1st.

So, the the per the vinyl sign is just a a temporaryish sign in permanent one. But what if it was something that wasn't so vinally like direct print on on onto core plast or not corlass but onto centra or something like that. Do you guys have a suggestion in material if vinyl is not okay? So something that's a little more substantial feeling but still is affordable until they get their new sign. I Yeah, I don't I don't know how to treat it. It's I mean it it feels I mean it's a

I also think it's important to see the new sign before you have it fabricated because if you're having it fabricated and it doesn't work then it's a tough spot. We want to make sure you just don't have the schematics yet. Yeah. The moment I do I'm refiling for an application 100%. Yeah. Before he starts carving I'm That's what I was thinking like um I don't know. Yeah. I don't think it can be like a vinyl. No, no. I'm thinking Centro is like it's like a a polystyrene material. It's hard that you can have direct print onto. Well,

and you could hang it and it wouldn't feel like a cheap vinyl sign. Well, I I mean, here's the only thing is is that um we're talking about uh six months. So we're talking about during the winter. Yeah. And then where is this? This is on 14 Main Street. Where? 14 Main. 14 Main. So you're you're going to be on lower side. Yeah. Yeah, gets very windy and and so the issue if you go with something like um a uh a more uh or a thinner hard material, it it would probably be subject to uh

it might do it might do worse than just a vinyl, right? The vinyl would probably flap around, but I think it would hold up better in the wind. Oh, you're you're concerned with it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, one thing just just kind of off the bat is that this is um much I mean I guess you're Yeah, you're saying four. Okay. So, it's just the white box is not it's not Yeah, this and your goal would your goal you measured your goal is to have it in between two posts. Okay. I'm not very good at that. That's fine. Um, well, is there a

Well, I I guess not between the two posts. What I would think, and if this is it's not and so, you know, we're guessing it at this particular point, but um if it was I would suggest that it go like that. It'd be centered on the post in the middle of the fully filling the space down. Well, I I think that uh I I don't know what this gap is. Uh the railing I would assume is 3 foot six. Huh? Is there are there door

feet? You're this Yeah, this building is probably about 20 ft across. So in scale it's the four feet by three in scaling off let's say four by four I don't think we want it to drop down to you scale off the door or something blocks much smaller hanging the window it blocks the idea that this is like a porch well and basically if we're talking about like a a vinyl thing which is like this

like in general we have to approve something that's technically supposed to be permanent that's why it's coming to us right whenever we approve it's not or you the only reason I but it's it's past the 30 days of not a temporary piece that and no it's not but I I I understand the situation that she's dealing with that there is it's going to be replaced with something different so why not is there a way to tie by the approval of this temporary sign that is going to not satisfy our definition of the word temporary. Is there a way to tie that approval

to um I don't know, extend that approval for up to 6 months. Tie it to proof of proof of receipt on the permanent sign or something. Well, well, how about how about this? Uh when do you think you'd be able to submit for the permanent? Uh hopefully two weeks or so. So how about if we make it contingent on receipt of the application for the permanent sign? Yeah. Um two weeks from now is

well it would be at the next meeting. to put it on birth one or whomever else is helping to then sort of track when that six month mark is up and the signs get swapped out. I feel like it's a little bit I'm sure that our our code enforcement official will be on top of it. Well, I I can assure you I will be on I um

I think whenever we approve we should assume that even if you swap it out but for our purposes given sort of how everyone is so stretched we should assume it's going to be there like you know as any other permanent sign would be there. So we should have it designed so that it feels appropriate if for whatever reason it becomes the sign. Well, okay. But I mean, I I have no problem with treating this as a 30-day sign contingent on uh receipt of the full-blown application

for the six month.

Yeah. I I mean, it's it's it's an unusual circumstance. So I I feel inclined to um be more flexible with our definition of temporary uh with the understanding that it is based on certain parameters uh whether they are the submission of an application or um I'm not quite sure uh some proof of purchase for an approved sign. I I don't know quite how to word that, but I don't um you know, the cost is of doing something just in vinyl versus something we would approve is very different.

Is that 4 foot? He's trying to get it. That's kind of more of a scale. Yeah. The doors. Yeah. Doors fabric. I I guess there's like a foot in between the two. I I I guess you know uh my question would be how is uh you know even the the the permanent sign would it be in the same place? Yes. I'm a little limited as to where I can put it. I mean originally I would have loved to just somehow put it here. That would not work. What about um

and I might not even be but if I'm correct in saying is that it could work and they're amendable. What about on a post perpendicular to the building then it wouldn't block the window. It wouldn't break up the porch facade and you would see it as you're walking down the sidewalk. It would be on a bracket on a post. That's something you guys can approve. Overhanging what though? Are you talking about the the temporary sign or permanent? No, either both. said it would be on, you know, this post perpendicular to the building, not obstructing the sidewalk if it's right that there's and we would have to check, but they have some stairs coming down and maybe those shrubs are a couple feet deep. The shrubs so hanging above that shrub

or if it was done because it would keep a really clean front facade, beautiful historic facade, it would give them the sidewalk views. So with vinyl signage like using it wouldn't be vinyl. It would need to be like I would get a temporary wood whatever print it. So have it be like exactly May like the second post. Yeah. But I just want to make sure that we're not disrupting the site though. We definitely would have to concern avoid going to the other board or have tiny uh

have to change what I'll just don't even listen to. Well, I mean, but there if if she wanted something temporary, there are vinyl sign holders like fiberglass holders, something or even like what a realtor uses to list it. personally. Oh, like four glass sort of. You're talking about putting a a bracket on this post. Mhm. Yeah. Close to the one to the right, one on either side of the doors because then you're not interrupting the two porch and the windows.

I mean, I like that placement idea by far the the best. I just kind of worry that you don't have enough land between the sidewalk and where the property my worry that's why I was thinking about the design. Yeah. But I do think that would be the most visually pleasing and really probably get the most attention from people to have that kind of sign. So it's a question of if the steps are on village property or on your property because if they're your property then you've got the space. So my sister owns the That was so I wonder if she has a site survey. Yes, we do. We have one. I just don't have it with me. I almost forgot to

Abigail, you don't know, right? You know everything. It's what is that? Like what is it? I thought of it and I forgot about it. Cross our fingers. Yeah. Um, fingers. Does that look right? It's two structures, right? Isn't there a front? Yeah.

So, it's 14 lane and north. This big parking lot. parking lot. Okay. Okay. So, we're talking about this area here, right? But it doesn't show where the property. Well, here's the property. Oh, what? Oh, yeah. So, so the porch isn't even on what the porch is not on porch is not on not on or is beyond the property line. But this fire real

come into the store, please. Yeah. What year does that say? uh 2024 printed 2024.

This is like all currently stamped. So they would have confirmed it. Okay. So that's it doesn't work without going to Yeah. This is Yeah. the the banner is hung here. In other words, between the wall and within the post between the wall. So, it's not affecting the window, but sort of the vertical ele um off of the left column. So, it would end the port structure

between the brick and the column. How far does this build have to send it? How are you anchoring it? I would come off of the side of the post out like a same thing like a on the brick or on the post. Well, I I would say, you know, for the banner the banner uh you could you could put an uh eye eyelids and you know just tie it off from that suspended in the midst of you know the space, right? But you need anchors on the bottom at least. Is that wood or is that that looks almost like I want to say? Well, you could concrete.

Yeah. Well, you could put a a piece of wood down there or else, you know, build a frame which fills it and then just have the eyelets uh into the wood or two brackets where you're wrapping around the top and the bottom off the side of the post. I think we're looking for a religion that wouldn't block the windows. It's a rough one to work with with Yeah. We don't want to take away from the parag, but you feel limited. All right. Uh let's let's do it this way because

a going to be a shop or a is a it's a retail spiritual shop and healing. Okay. So, um, because you're looking for September 1st. I know that's rapidly shifting. Um, well, well, I I mean, I I'm trying trying to work with you. No, I I really appreciate that you and and so the issue becomes um

the definition of temper. Well, I I'm willing to go with approving this on a vinyl surface until contingent that we get the final installation uh within 30 days. The by the next application for the permanent signage within 30 days, right? And then the permanent signage installed within six month. Yeah.

How about you, Kim? I do. I think I read the whole um the logo is approved, right? Just before I carved we we can't comment on that. Oh, so you guys Okay. So, I have any approval for a logo. Not not for the content. Just just the how it's installed and the installation. Beautiful. So, yeah, like if you're So, if you're planning this to be inlaid, carved out of a a square piece or something, I think it would just be helpful to even if you hand drew like a square around it and then a detailed explanation to when you do submission.

Is it exactly this with the lettering? I'm not building it. I mean, that's that's the hope. That's that's what I'm hoping that carved into wood or It's carved into wood and then So, it's carved and then painted. Um, yeah. Do you have more? Can we do this now or? Well, I I would I would suggest that we do it now for the temporary sign just so that they can start moving in that direction.

Yeah. I guess I'm just saying if we have unless there is further information that you would be providing for the submission for the permanent signage but if it's essentially just the information you provided now which is it's this on a square well except square. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean let let them figure out the permanent sign once you know they're dealing with a temporary sign and they see the implications who and where. Okay. Now definitely our size has kind of shifted so we'll have to be take that into consideration with Yeah. Yeah. Even measure how big that is. I'm not sure.

But are we saying placement here? Yeah. On the side not on the front. Right. Yeah. the chromosome

and and I I guess it would have to be a two-sided sound. Yeah. The same thought. Yeah. And I will I'm going to see if I can skip the vinyl and find something else that could be a bit more I honestly think you vinyl might vinyl might be your best option for weather and as changes for durability I right gets very windy

it gets windy down there you know unless heal or crack or just break Okay. So, do I have a motion concerning uh the application for this temporary sign? You know how again not in a preview but how big it is in relationship to the south because this is so I'll be honest we were focused we were based on this so I do have to go back and sort of figure I I would evaluate it definitely going to be smaller. So

I mean my feeling is is that I think it's going to be about the same size. I I think you know we're talking about 4 foot and um trying to estimate like about 5t by 4t. Yeah. So I think that the size of the sign that you proposed would in fact fit into this space. Yeah. Right. So, do I have a motion concerning this? You're saying the sign will sit over this little bench. Yeah,

I see. Between the brick and the column, not hanging off the column parallel to this stair plane right there. Yeah. Oh, you can actually see it perspective. Okay. I was worried you wouldn't see it, but definitely see it. Yeah, it's way more visible. Yeah. Um yes. So okay. So we are approving this with the sign located uh between the post and the brick on uh the on the side on the east side of the door. On the west side of the door.

No east. This building is because the river is like rivers river's there. The river is off. River's there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go west side. Um and then with like eaten this to death, but I'm just going to just say it one more time. um that the the size of your permanent signage. Um you should look at the village code chapter 64 and chapter 104 and you can calculate you can calculate what okay we're going to measure

just so that when you come it can be yeah uh I would make a motion to approve the temporary vinyl sign to be installed between the post and the brick on the west side of the front door. Um with the caveat that the application for the permanent sign is um submitted submitted within by the ne to to the next meeting the next September meeting. This sign's not up longer than six months. And that this sign is not up longer than six months and that it doesn't penetrate the brick facade. As far as the

And that anchors do not penetrate the brick. Well, no. That I mean, typically we allow uh anchors to be in the mortar temporary. I feel like for the temporary Yeah. might not even be there that long. Try to avoid that. So, you're not Well, how would she? I won't touch the brick. I I Well, yeah, they got high and low. Okay. All right. Yeah. And then in terms of anchoring points, we discuss that for the during the final application. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh so uh Okay. Uh do I have a second for that?

Second. Uh okay. I I I I I thank you all so much. Thank you for your patience. Abigail, do you want to keep this for next time? Yeah. Thank you so much.

All right. That's what I'm going to say. I'm tasting everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah. Drive safe. Um. Oh, I was just gonna say good night and thank you all. I stayed along just to uh sort of listen and learn a little bit more. So anyway, have a great night. Get home safely. Good night. Good night. You too. See you all for 37 in uh uh I guess September. Great. Sounds good. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Uh 44 Main is not here. Here. Okay. Well, thanks. Okay. Now we get down to the most important one.

Can I just ask a quick question about 44 Main and then I would make a motion to not do any other work after we finally deal with this last thing and so we can go home. Um 44 Maine was not on our list of violations, but they got Yep. Okay. So the new right after sorry I think the understory signage popped up right after we had done that letter before it went out. So the new code enforcement officer that was on his own which is great.

Yeah. I mean I think we passed by it. I think at one time I was walking by to the go up the hill like and I saw it and I was like where have I seen that on the application? I just told her. under stone applied after hanging it but before they applied before hanging it hung it did not get approval so they got a violation oh and then what about oh o design interiors that's on stone street on stone street has to sign out and it's a new business I won't tell you you didn't hear that okay

decide what to do with that when we have Now the real fun building 23 didn't we just Okay. So this is this is put off. We'll put it off until next month. Yeah. Okay. Let's see.

All right. So this is um and I have to apologize because I I it had been my intention to provide a site plan to show exactly where this is. But you can see this is in the middle of the of the lot. And all it is is just a um handrail. Uh dimensions are shown here. Um, and the it it's uh designed to match the uh the guard rail on the porch. And this is

Yeah, it's all it's uh wood. I have to figure out a way of anchoring it into the ground. Question. Next time you apply for something, please have all of the information ready for us. Hey, you know, the anchorage is not going to be visible from the street. So there uh and it presumably is painted painted wood. Okay. It's going to match the front porch. Yeah, the front porch and the back.

Actually, there's another porch uh on the uh to the left. I I I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be with uh SketchUp overlaying it onto the photograph. It does the job. What? Does the job? Yeah. Well, this what you see here is the result of something like uh two hours of

Thank you. in and you don't really know uh where you are because you move the uh you know you create this as an entity and you're moving it around and the next thing you'll know it's gone through the plane of the image that you there's something to be said for vellum and and just

yes as a matter of fact I think next time what I'm going to try to do is just get two images and that was I I started out with that and the the problem that I had was that I had a photograph which was a certain angle and so it became a question of getting the the handrail at the same angle. But anyways, now how would you anchor this? Uh well, right now what my thought is is to uh to run a metal rod into the ground and then having this um screwed into the top of it.

In other words, uh rod and then uh it would project to some extent into the into the wood post. Got it. So, uh, do I have a motion concerning if this crucial this is consistent with the extent of course material and it looks like it's appropriate for safety and I um with motion to approve this application design. Okay. Do I have a second? A second. All those in favor say I.

I. Can I base my approval contingent on us ending this meeting now and not doing anything else tonight? No. Okay, fine. What else is on the agenda here? Much more. I don't have the minutes for June. Sorry to interrupt. Don't have the minutes for June. Okay. Also, quick, did you second Kimberly? Kimberly second. Yeah, the 44 Main Street. No. Um,

well, have you had a chance to check on on the volunteers from the school to update our files? Um, when school was in session. Okay. All right. Did not, right? Um because um I was planning on reaching out to Johanna

uh before the meeting and I just got tied up with some of the things that I didn't do that uh but I will and basically we know that we're looking at as far as the the files 300 um 300 megabyte file for public viewing. Uh now are we going to have enough room on our server for uh the Google drive in order to

300 megabytes is not going to be enough for well it's not going to be enough that I mean that what I envision is that uh it's a megabyte for each property filling out the form you know that we h that we've come up it it's going to wind up being about a megabyte average if no one includes any it's just filling out that form. Sure.

All right. So, we're talking about 300 megabytes for uh for the listing of the property in the district. Then uh beyond that, we've got a whole bunch of photographs, postcards, and other visual materials that uh we should probably correlate. And the only thing I can think of is that becomes a separate file which uh you know, we list the photographs and and name each folder the address. our the current form that we set up h is asks for imagery.

Well, and I I think I think it would make sense to have at least one image there so that you know you know what you're looking at. I think it yeah be filled out as best as anyone can do and I think the size of it is going to be what it is. So if they want to start with 300 megabytes, that's fine. But there's no way that it's going to end up being that way. No one's

Well, the thing is is that the right now uh the the format that we have calls for an image maybe two and I think that can be dropped into that format. But I think that should not be the only images that we because we have the photographs that you guys took. Yeah. We have the photographs that Yan Thatcher took. Yeah. And I I've got uh files of uh you know uh these postcards and stuff like that. So I think that all needs to be put in a separate file

where uh we you know the the images are identified by address and also hosted at the library. Yeah. But as as something separate something separate from the district files. Why?

Because I think it would it becomes a little bit too difficult to put all of that into one. In other words, for example, we have photo we have postcards of uh shots on Main Street and there are multiple image multiple addresses in that image. Do we put copies of that?

No, I think you have a folder called HDB. You click it and then you have five more folders. One is called um uh whatever we call historic home document. Boom. That folder has all of the documents. Another is historic postcards. Another is 2024 photographs of design district that I took. And those all live in the same space, but the the the separate separate folders the same Yeah. master folder. Right. Right. And so the the historic home document

um I mean it's sort of neither here nor there whether that folder is 300 megabytes when the entire thing is going to be way more than that. So I think they need to be prepared for a few several gigs worth of data as we go. Right. And and I will tell them that you know for what we had talked to her about which was specifically the historic structures folders. Uh and that would that should be our first step forward. I think that uh you know we can work on expanding the the the file as we go along.

Yeah. I just I guess just to to drive the point home, if someone takes a picture of the front of their house on an iPhone, that could be a five or a seven megabyte file. When you put that into the P into the document, you've got a you've got anywhere from 5 to 8 megabyte file right there. So as this fills out over the next 30 years because we all know this is not happening that quickly um it's going to become a much larger than I just feel like agreed agreed there were about 300 but I think we should not be talking about changing the format of the document because we've talked about it a hundred times and we are all pretty much on the same page that what is there now is

and set. Yeah. So she's asking you for a specific amount of data. No, I I'm just trying to, you know, because she said, uh, you know, yeah, sure, we we can do it and I want to give her some parameters. So, just tell her.

Well, but I mean, you know, I think that we need to have a starting point. And my my starting point is that it's going to be uh, you know, probably let's say 3 to 400 megabytes for the district files. Then after that when we start talking about uh photographs and postcards and other things and probably the map should be uh in in there also. Um I think that you know we can develop what we think that's going to be and see if whatever she's setting up can be accommodated can accommodate it.

Yeah. I just I feel like it's easier from a data storage perspective rather than guess at the small at the low end which is that's what it would be a guess at the low end. It would be easier to say can you accommodate up to 10 g gigabytes of storage of data or what is the m what is the maximum you guys can accommodate and then we'll just go from there because if you start 300 you know it could I mean 30 houses and it could be you're done and then we're having to have another conversation about it right so just ask how much the maximum that they can give us and then we go from there because if we if you assume 20 megabytes per file which is no a dozen or so pictures from an iPhone.

I I know, but we're not that's what I that's what I I I want to avoid. Even if it's just two pictures, you call it 10 megabytes if uh you know, for high- res image, people aren't going to be downsizing their So, yeah, I mean, I think you I think you would just estimate 10 10 megabytes per file, and it'll most likely be less than that, but they should be planning for the high end. Mine has a historic photo, a few contemporary photos, a um like map, historic map, two historic maps. Like mine actually has a lot and there screenshots download some of them and some are photos, but mine's probably 20 megs,

right? And I don't feel like we should be limiting people or telling them to only if people want to put the effort in and make it really really a a wholesome kind of picture then well the day photos if we want to have them offer that to them but otherwise they'll drop it in.

Okay. Because the other the other thing is is that I know uh if you have a database which has a lot of information very um it may be hard researching it. In other words, uh mining that database for information. I would rather that it be easy to get information on the structure and then have all of these other things that if you want to pursue it even further, you can go to that. That's been my experience that if you have a huge database

with this type of thing though, your search your search is going to be and people are going to search by street name or number, right? And it's going to be pretty boom boom boom like there are 10 houses that are number 17 in the district. Why? Why would that be? If you type in 17 to the search key, you're going to get any folder or file that says 17. If you pre Why would you not? Yeah. I mean, why you're saying I'm I'm just saying it doesn't matter the content of the of the file itself.

Well, I think it does. I think that at least my experience in in uh accessing databases that uh the state has and MTA has when it's a huge database it takes a while. Yeah, I I might have to recuse myself from the rest of this meeting. When it gets to this late in the day, it's hard to think r for me to think rationally about the solution. and it feels like we talk about similar things in similar ways and we don't come to a solution and I wonder if it would be possible to put it at the I hate to say it but at the beginning of the next meeting with concrete decisions that we need to make and then we can agree them.

Either that or else I'll just make the decision for us. You want to ask her for 300 megabytes. Let's do it. Really quick before you guys end um out, do you mind when you do the approval for 23 market, is it possible for do your signature to add like Lauren or an ultimate member on it so that on paper you are not paying your Oh well. Oh, I I didn't appro I didn't vote yes on my application. I abstained.

Right. Last application you signed it. That's all. just on paper. Second note, um 72 Main Street was uh their um resolution was conditioned on the approval for the I should have mentioned this before. I apologize. Which buildings are 72 Main Street? 72 Main Street, nobody's Delhi. Their resolution last year 2024 was conditioned on the approval for exterior signage for from this board. So now I Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that. So they were already we didn't even have to give a violation. and it was already sort of part of their

but the sign was also up and since the plans weren't stamped the whole violation is a part of it but I did want to make note of that um cuz I know he's coming back for 37 Main Street. Um, and I know you guys went through all that trouble, but I'm not trying to say would you rethink it or is there an alternative because I'd hate for him to come back to the planning board pro process if the resolution is kind of nullified or the brick the paint and brick. It says exterior signage. So I'm not pointing I know because that was that and that that was our mistake in our letter to Ethan is that we were we called out the signage and we should have no a year ago when they applied for planning board

planning to change the use of the building 72 conditional on that approval change of use approval was to come to us for signage approval and they never did that. So they really were blatantly just disregarding the process. So, are you saying can our approval now serve to fit that approval that we can give a year ago? Yeah, because you guys like technically did reject that exterior signage. It's also the language is vague and I sent it to your inboxes. So, if you want to think about it for the next scheduled meeting, that's perfectly fine as well. 72 Main Street, we're talking about

the signage that that they have is was painted over an existing facade element. Yeah. So, even if they came back to us, what we would have said is that, you know, we don't review that. That's that's not our issue because I guess technically what he's saying is they don't actually have a sign. Well, yeah. And it's paint on wood, right? When we review brick not allowed. That's why he's going to get it ripped. I don't know what the reference is not specific. If you I don't know if you have that in your inbox. I just opened it. It says they need approval from the HDRB for the exterior sign.

So, and so we are who said that the planning when they change of use whereas whereas whereas these are the things you need to do and then you get approval. I did send Jesse an email so I am awaiting okay his response. I don't mean to complicate it but I did it's proper to let you know. Yeah. Because I mean it could be that the exterior signage it technically means above and that whole reapplying reapplying can be um avoided but I believe they meant in this context the brick

but that that just it we may have referred them to us but our response to them would have been that what we said today. Okay. In other words, they can't they shouldn't be painting on the brick. But if they're painting a sign on an existing element, you know, facade element, then we don't, you know, that's nice. All nice and good. I I thought I'd mention it. All right. Cool. But it's interesting to me if they applied to paint on the brick in this application,

did they? Well, I haven't I'm just seeing the response to the application. I'm trying to read it now. Um, but we don't see the actual application. We just see the response. But if they apply for that, I mean, they didn't come out and they did it anyway. That's the That's the tough one. I mean, they're getting it rejected. Go over and punch them out. I mean, either way, they were they were told to apply for signage and they never applied for two different signs for what they knew. He was asking us specifically, "Well, what about the one over the door? Is that okay?" he was considering that a sign. So everybody they on their side thinks that's sign. So they did two signs and they knew they were supposed to ask us for permission and they didn't for either.

See, but the thing is is that from our point of view, the sign over the door is not it is not a sign. Correct. Could be from uh right it is from their perspective and they knew that they were supposed to ask permission and they didn't. So all right. Okay. Okay. Wait, I need a motion. make a motion to end our meeting now. All in favor say I. I and uh in second it Yes, I predicted that. Okay. Hey, good night everybody. Good night. Sleep well.

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