Historic District Review Board - Regular Meeting

Um just for everybody's information, this is a workshop. Uh so therefore, no board business will in fact be conducted. Um and um uh just to let you know that we're not going to vote on it. The whole point of the the the workshop is just to provide you with our uh experience and uh and uh any expertise that we may have concerning your application. Um, with that, uh, I'll turn it over to you and and you can tell us what it is that you Well, I I guess the first thing if you could just update everybody about, uh, the facade facing L terrorists because that would

Yeah, a question from sort of before I kick off. Sure. Um, so good morning. Excited to be good.

I've been pushing a little bit hard lately. Good evening and I'm pleased to be here. Uh, my name is Brian Tormmy. Um and thank you all for uh calling and attending a a special meeting. I really appreciate the workshop time and your evening time. So thank you. Um quick updates on sort of status of building including the ease for side. We uh there's a little bit of a delay. The as I mentioned before the contractor obtained the wrong windows um by just accident in sort of the ordering. Uh they finally arrived but they were the wrong windows. we have rushed the order of the correct windows. Um, and the and so we're going to in but we that at first we thought was going to happen they were going to get deliver a little bit more quickly and then it's not supply chain issues etc. Um, and so we're going to install the incorrect windows knowing that we will then replace them back out but just so we can keep the building envelope sealed especially as we get into what it feels a little spring-l like right now but we know we will get back to deep winter again. Um and he then is proceeding with all of the sort of like sighting. Um you know most of it we are trying to keep as we have done on the other three sides you know repair a lot of sighting but this side had more um degradation in the sighting and so there's more boards that we're going to be replacing but as with the other sides we're matching sort of the historic spec of the board. Um and so we're proceeding with doing the sighting updates. Uh we've moved the um uh outlets uh sort of exterior outlets shifted those down. Uh there is one or two sides where just Hudson design didn't update the location of them on the drawings but we're physically doing them there and I shot back the note. They just didn't give me the updated drawings in time for tonight to show the the changes from the last HDRB sort of process. Um so we're proceeding with the east lair site.

Okay. Thank you. you know, in line with the the approvals from uh the meeting six weeks ago, something like that. All right. Um can you tell us the what it is that we're reviewing in this workshop? Yeah, absolutely. I would love to. So, um and Todd, what I'm going to do, uh I'm going to share on screen what I'm doing what I'm showing here to Yeah, I'm muted here. there. Um, muted. I'm going to share a screen. I'm going to share this. It's How's the rain out in California?

Um, we we actually had a lot of rain uh over over the end of um the end of the year and New Year's, but now we're back to sunshine and and 80 degrees. Sorry, guys. I would have my camera on, but it says uh cameras disabled for participants or something. Well, as long as you can see what what we're I don't know if we want to see signs. Do we do we want to see? Yeah, I'm I'm outside, too, so it's probably better to just um I I'll stay I'll stay hidden. Okay. But yes, I can see this. I can see um I can see what you're sharing, Brian. Great.

And I'll attempt to both point here for you all and sort of mouse point for Todd here on the screen. But Todd, I I'll I'll do that as needed. I think a lot of what I'll verbally describe you'll be mouse point. Broadly speaking, what you see in front of you here at first is just the, you know, sort of floor plan layout of the building, first floor. Um, the I will point out what is included in this drawing is the deck at the rear of the property. That is a future thing that I'm not seeking HDRB approval, certificate of appropriateness, etc. Right now, but I do want to remain transparent about some of the things I'm going for in sort of like the long term of the building. um be later.

Correct. The one at the uh uh south side of the building is for a later point in time. That being said, during the workshop today, I thought to bring it and still collect thoughts, advice, guidance, expertise as you said. Um, so I wanted to sort of still put it out there, but the COA application that I've drafted uh and delivered to Abigail and and sort of everybody on that thread and uh and the building permit all focuses on the front side, the main street or north side of the building. Um, so to the left side of your drawing, Todd. Um, and the request is to build a porch here along the front of Main Street. um as well as to I'll sort of get into the door detail here in a couple minutes, but essentially update the doors while still retaining their historic current look and feel. And I'll sort of explain what that means in a few minutes. Um and that's really uh that's the extent of the plan. Um currently the uh section to my property border goes to sort of like the edge of this blue stone walkway on the east side towards Lawn Terrace is the current property line. Um the there we are I am in a discussion with the village about uh access to some of the rest of this area and we're sort of working through some of the engineering stuff because my plan is to extend this section of the deck and blue stone so that it comes around and fully meets the sidewalk at a level that allows it to be fully uh handicap accessible neutral uh neutral grade because sort of in this magic way the grade from the handicap ramp here at the uh cross-section crosswalk intersection is like perfectly level with the floor of the inside of the building. Um, and so I'll be able to create sort of a maybe there's minor, you know, like one inch across 30 40 ft, but like extremely minor uh grade uh

access to the building from the from the sidewalk. Uh here um the current building permit and the current uh COA application is for what is still to my property border which is um you know the blue stone paper here and the deck along the uh the front side of the building which includes two steps here um and uh a hatch for access um to the to the basement. uh sort of a essentially under the deck lift up will be a um what what you often see in New York City is sort of like those vault style access doors and we have a couple here in the industry as well um but sort of at the deck level uh etc. Um and then for the doors any any questions so far on scope

will this be handicap accessible in the back? That that is the plan. Great question. So the plan actually is to by using this walkway and that's why this extension is here is to actually allow and create this whole space as that as well. And the grade of the floor is the same through the whole floor. So this deck and this and this all become and with this small small extension up here to this section of sidewalk top I'm gesturing up towards the crosswalk. Okay. like to with a little extension of the of the uh paving to come up and connect with the sidewalk up here, it becomes grade neutral from here all the way around to the uh rear porch. Got it.

Which, you know, just speaking openly for me like I want to go do things in a way that like I'm not I don't think I have a code requirement to go do that, but I think it is the right thing to do for the community. And so I want to try and go do the things. So I've tried to design this in a way that creates that as a third space that is achieving these kind of accessibility things. Um so yeah. So any other questions on scope or things before I get into some of the a little bit more of the detail areas? And I've got elevations if we want as well. Well, I guess the door to the uh Yeah, that one.

Yep. Yeah, I can get into that. So the as you all have probably walked around and sort of seen there are two historic wooden doors that are um hinged sort of on both sides. Um currently they hinge and swing to the inside of the building to the interior of the building. And my proposal is to switch the hinge direction so that they sit on the outside edge and hinge. And that's what these larger arcs are, is swing around to the outside of the building and then install a more classic glass storefront tempered uh glass door. And I've got some specs and stuff I can show inside essentially inset into the wall so that the large doors are not the doors that people are using on a on a coming in and out of the store, right? and keeping the uh temperature control air pocket of this of the bakery inside, but instead they are more decorative doors that are closed when not in use and opened uh when open. Um, and then the glass doors are the in-n-out use, but we still sort of kept the the the historic doors and and they need a they need some TLC, but that's the plan is to give them the TLC and and keep them and and they they have a pretty, you know, just being honest, like sort of a beat up look to I mean, they they've seen some they've seen some wear, but that's the patina, and that is, you know, what we're going to plan to sort of keep um for the building. And this allows us to create that, you know, high efficiency sort of insulated air pocket while still keeping the historic doors um as sort of the connective tissue uh with the with the outside wall.

Are there going to be any other changes to the because if I remember correctly when uh we last approved uh the the work that you were you're currently doing that wasn't included in it. The doors. Yeah, correct. So are there any other changes which are above and beyond what what was already approved? Uh the only other one um which the deck

all the and uh it's not you can't see it here but I plan to put a I think the other one is you know like things like railing detail and some stone veneer detail. So so those are part of this but we haven't sort of gotten to that part of the details yet. Right. But no other um meaningful sort of big chunk events anticipated. All right, let's get into the details.

Okay, great. Um I mean so on the I sort of described the the current existing historic doors and how those will be swung the I will switch images here. I'm going to stop sharing that one. Let me go make sure I've got the other one open. It's this one. do this one first here. Share. Okay. Yep. So, pardon me. You're welcome to look either at like cutting it off and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. That didn't do it.

Yeah, I think you can sort of get a sense and and Todd, you can. So, yeah. Um the color is slightly off on this. It will be uh to match the trim. So sort of a white using white as the instead of the sort of silver or pure metal aluminum extruded aluminum look. Um uh but this is an example and I've got the spec sheets that I can go through as well of the kind of doors that would be in place set just inside the historic doors as the uh glass entrance doors. Sorry. The historic doors would remain open most of the time and the glass doors would be what we see dayto day during during business hours. Yeah. So the door the historic doors would be used and shut every day.

That's sort of the that's the plan and and at least you know with Ken and Angie the discussion with them like that's part of what they want to create is you know that they're um they're it's a working building. Do you have elevations?

Yeah, I do. Um, and I have specs on the door if we want. Pull this aside. Switch back over for Todd to bring him along with us. Okay, we go. And then Todd, make sure. Yeah, this is the correct one. Todd, you're seeing that? Yeah. Yes, we see it. Um, uh, so to sort of anchor you here, we're at the top. We're looking at the north side. Um, same door. You can sort of see here the steps, uh, that face into the door that are very similar to the steps that are there now. Um, and Yep. and a little sort of planter to one side and the railing picks up on the right side of the door um and runs the length. Um the railing does uh sort of drop down for what is where the that is where the Bilco door is presently. Um so there will be deck or sort of decking across the top that will lift up when needed to access the Bilco door. Um and uh I'm trying to describe this correctly. And then this gate will open so that we uh essentially sort of sort of a metal gate that will swing open so the belco ders can be accessed for in-n-out uh deliveries.

Do you have photographs of the existing front facade? Uh probably it looks like one just got handed to right. So um you're adding two windows on either side of No, those are the door. Uh those are the ones that are there now and those are the ones that these two right are are the ones that are there now. Yeah. And being under the last HDRB process, we sort of finalized what the spec is on those and things. Yep. No, I'm talking about at those two. Yeah,

these two. So, those are the the rendering here and no, you know, no slight on on Hudson Design Great Architects, but the rendering here is sort of like she's attempting to capture the historic doors being shown as open. Um, that's what the drawing is attempting to display. That is what we will be doing in in reality is taking the existing doors uh and just mounting them so they now swing uh as shown on the last plan swing outward instead of swinging inward. So there are no additional windows. No, correct. This is just those two doors shown swung open. No.

Um and then the glass door on the inside. I will mention this and sort of put it forward, you know, like we can leave the doors on the inside and swinging inside the historic doors. The rationale for putting them on the outside is keeping them to be part of the display that is sort of the facade of the building. And that allows them to be to your question a bit like operated like actually used versus inside then things will the furniture will sort of get set in front of them and they'll be semi-permanently open um versus being closed at night uh in this.

Okay. Um want you to tell us a little bit about the railing and the deck.

Yep. Um, so the the plan is to do uh, you know, sort of a classic. It's a, you know, as seen on a lot of things here, sort of a 4-inch standard board uh, deck um, uh, along the full length of uh, Main Street uh, with uh, a fascia board and then uh, stone uh, veneer in front. Real stone, not uh, faux or manufactured stone. um what's shown here and I sort of looked at some other things around uh the village and things. I'm open there's quite a number of stone choices out there like there's a lot I'm very open to anything that the board members might think or suggest or direct me towards. The one presently sort of selected is an Ashler stone veneer. I can swap to some photographs of it as well if needed, but it's a grayish stone uh cut into blocks that is done as a veneer that matches in my opinion a lot of sort of what we see um in a not uniform shaped block style u in other locations or at least the same. Is there any um remnant of the existing foundation that is stone? Because it I feel like a brick probably would have been more common.

Is it Do you see stone elsewhere in the building as the foundation? It's it is cinder block the entirety of it. So it was it was all redone. Yeah. Okay. for it's cinder block uh with the exception of the east side along L terrace uh below grade is brick. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd be open to a brick, you know, front as well if that

um well I I think certainly brick is is an option. Um I I would assume that uh the reason you have brick on on the east side is be How about the the front the front part here? Yeah. There. Uh cinder block is also cinder block also.

Sorry I I maybe shouldn't have diverted your conversation to that at this point. if you want to just continue and then all have everybody have comments afterwards that might be make more sense. Sorry about that. Well, well, no. I I mean, you know, don't worry about it, Todd. Well, All right. Um Okay. How about the the railing? What's the railing? And

so, the the and this plan doesn't have the railing detail. It's the same as the railing detail I did show in the prior application and I can go pull it up here. Ror iron railing. Uh it's a you know one and a half inch type small thin with like there's a little bit of curling detail to the top rail piece um and a square front linear um vertical post um for the bottom rail. Do do you have it uh for the future? Will there be any railings on the back deck?

There would be. Yep. Now, so the back deck, the way it's drawn and what I had contemplated was a more uh modern uh horizontal uh stretched stainless steel cable approach to the back. Um but again, I'm open to direction and suggestion. Okay,

I haven't I will admit I haven't really gotten deep into sort of this um but broadly speaking it is still what we're planning but I'm very again I'm very open to direction and suggestion. So if you know there's a preference towards matching the railing and carrying it you I don't think there's there's maybe like one or two spots where you maybe could see both at the same time. um u sort of if you're like standing in this driveway with your back into the trees a bit, you could maybe sort of see, right? Um but otherwise, I'm I'm happy to you're pretty flexible.

Yeah, because am I correct that there's u off to the side? Is isn't there a driveway? There is. There's a pretty skinny driveway to the west side of the building. Yeah. Mhm. Um because in passing it uh there are a lot of trucks in the back right now

and so uh and that's probably the only way to so well the issue is is that uh as uh the visibility is primarily uh for people walking off of the um the station platform and walking to Main Street. Okay. Which you can't really see the back um from principally from veget because of the vegetation. You can't see the back until you walk down the the what is this building sort of like little mini driveway.

All right. Other thoughts?

I have a I have some comments um to to start just to kind of reiterate about the foundation. And I do think a brick foundation would be way more appropriate than a stone veneer um for something like this. Um the the steps that kind of lead from the sidewalk up to the um to the basement doors. I feel like that area needs some refinement. I'm not I'm not quite sure what, but just to kind of kick off commentary here. Um, another thing I I I do kind of like the idea of of well, I like the idea of using the historic doors, um, changing the use. One comment on that is if they are currently in swinging, um you're definitely going to need to build out the framework quite a lot to to accommodate them being converted to outswing. Um, so we would probably want to see what that looks like because if that's being done on the exterior of the building, um, so that the glass doors can be installed where the current ones are, that that'll,

you know, that that that needs to be discussed. Um,

I think that if we were I I don't like the idea of aluminum or any kind of brushed kind of brushed metal, raw metal look on the storefront doors. I really do not think that's appropriate at all. Uh I think they should be if if that is what kind of the direction this goes. I think that they should be um black or or dark bronze in in coloration. Uh I think aluminum would really stick out like a sore thumb. Um, and that Oh, and the other is the So, were you saying that you're you're proposing that the the railing around this new uh front patio is going is to be rot iron?

Uh, correct.

I don't really think row iron would be appropriate for this building. Um, I obviously invite everybody else's comments on that, but this is a very plain um a very plain building. Very little ornamentation. You've got the cornice is kind of about it. Um, it it is pretty pretty stark. So, I I feel like uh introducing a row iron railing would really just not appropriate the way that a um a very simple wood kind of railing uh would be. That that's kind of my thought on that. in in the in the rear I feel differently, but for that front facade, um I don't think any I don't think a row iron, especially with any kind of turned spindles, would would work. Um so that that's my initial thoughts.

That's uh I've got a few tidbits to go through with those. Is that okay if I sort of chime in and go through those? Sure. Um, on the brick I have a handful. I'm more than happy to orient that way subject to sort of like broader total commentary. I have a if that's the direction I have a few questions just around pointing and and style of advice. So, I've got some sub questions there. Um, on the billco door access detail. Um, happy those happy to get into it. Those aren't steps in the front and maybe I can uh sort of point this out. So it's if we're looking at from the top down, the deck is flush the whole way.

Oh, I Okay. Okay.

And then if we sort I go back here, this section here is a gate essentially that can be opened. So it can be swung open in the railing style. And so if you sort of picture that this front vertical gate swings open and the deck lifts up and then you can access the basement uh billadors, but they're otherwise essentially hidden from view and you just see the deck with the front. And if we're switching to a wooden piece, you know, I'll come to the railing in a second here, but sort of we would, you know, maybe this front piece is um sort of like wood lattice work as we see sort of at the front side of porch under railings in plenty of places as well. Um,

yeah. Yeah, I think that could be I think it would work better if that was visually called out. Um, rather than trying to kind of blend it in with the rest of the railing when it's not it's aitarian feature that you know um that I I don't know exactly how that looks, but I think maybe there's a more refreshing way. Yeah. Yeah. It gets a little bit more flexible if we pivot railing to wood. Then what we do on the bottom half of it gets a little bit more flexible than the top half of it.

Um of of what we'll call this the sort of Bilco door gate. Um so so open to that and we could that we can sort of go around the whole table and get other perspectives on that. Um yeah, um I think this building gets a like a special consideration because it's like the first building you see when you come off the train. Yeah. Um

and it is a very old building like the original part is I think what do we see from like the 1840s. Um, and I don't believe it ever had a porch, um, based on what we've seen so far, which is fine. Um, I'm wondering, so this this becomes the main access point to the bakery, and this is the access point to everything that's upstairs, right? So, on the plan, you have a a

Yeah. So this is a door like what's happening here? So this is an entrance door that you can also access access. You can also access it. This is going to revert back. And this some some of this has to do with just the tenants preferences. At first they wanted blow through with a door here. We're going to keep that door there. We're now going to revert to there will also there is there was a door here. We're going to put we're going to keep the door there. tenants internal flow preferences

and um I also agree that accessibility is important. Um I'm wondering though however if um how many accessible entrances do you need on a building and if one at the rear is sufficient so that we can um maintain um as close to the historic facade and functionality of the building as possible. Those are things that I'm thinking about. Um I also I feel strongly about the um proposed doors, the the brushed aluminum doors. Um, partly because even if they're open and what if they're going to be open a lot,

um, it kind of messes with the proportions of everything, you know, that kind of like gets over into this part of the building and you're kind of not seeing this as an addition anymore in the same way because it sort of, as you pointed out, kind of reads as new as glazing there. Um, so I don't know if this if you guys have ever thought about kind of eliminating this. Um, I don't know having it so just one opens and you have a a door that kind of recedes a little more or and then eliminating this because there's quite a lot of seating back there in the back. Yeah. So that

and I know you just brought the property in front. So, I don't know if that was because of the door swing or if it's solely because of the the extra seating area. Um, well, and really to make this the entrance as opposed to trying to come through with your come through what is a a very uncom it can be uncomfortable sort of flow pattern.

Try to actually enter the space. It's not really like a two people passing at once kind of situation. I think that's going to be a very um I I think that's going to be very confusing for people who are entering the building. I the natural point to enter the building is exactly that. Assuming this is you're talking about this to the two steps up to that proposed deck right there. That is going to be where people enter. And if if that door is there as a kind of an entrance, but then they want to use this other one, you know, I you're going to have to start introducing signage on the building sit with arrows saying enter over here. Um

and there's an entrance at the rear too, right? I mean, not presently. What's this? I mean, there the doors are there. Yeah, I'm sorry. there. This porch deck is subject to I sort of still have to go through expanded use like other approvals before I can get back to you for this. But the plan is to have a rear entrance and and additional seating at the back in the coming years. But but not not near term. But the rear entrance you'd have to go down this path like that to get there, right? If Yeah. if if you're on if you need to. Otherwise, you could enter that way.

So, originally, this was an addition with a stable in a hay barn over top of it. I mean, from what from what I'm seeing, the utility look of the Yeah. building. You're talking about slope roof on the side, right? Yeah. And there's a little there's a little hatch there to to load hay.

I don't think it was for hay. I I could be wrong. I think because the what is there there was there's still evidence of now is sort of essentially a they were bringing in very heavy equipment. So this whole uh west side is all two by uh I think it's 2 by8s on their end essentially laminated the entire length of the floor. It was like a crank.

And so uh I don't know that technical term but I think yes and there's a whole bunch of overhead sort of equipment much of which were well all that came with the building I'm keeping in place inside the building to sort of honor its past. So I don't think it was hay only I think it's for sort of like winching very heavy things into and and the history of the building was uh um reworking uh a whole bunch of you know trains and other machining kind of things a machine shop.

Yeah. And I've got some pretty cool old photos of like train engines that were being cleaned and prepped to go to the Smithsonian like inside here from you know all kinds of cool stuff. I mean, it is a just thinking about what everyone else has been saying about the historic building and its simplicity and um how the building was used and and this current proposal and what egress would look like. It's a it's a good point that you do naturally want to come in this door and were this deck to be, you know, occupied by tables or people hanging out over I'm not sure what the the programmatic expectations are. then these doors would become very hard to access. And so it feels like if the back porch is accommodating some of that outdoor uh program in the future, um it it I feel like it is worth a discussion about this front primary door for the first floor um maybe not being ADA accessible and having stairs directly down and forgoing the porch and sort of the intricacies that come along with it if that would make for a cleaner facade. So I've I've noodled well or more comments.

Well, it's just that uh according to the ADA requirements, the um they encourage that the handicapped accessible entrance be a something which is very um which is um

not lesser. Yeah, it's, you know, because it used to be when ADA first came through, you know, they would stick it off to the side where the elevators and stuff like that and they said, "No, no, no, no. You're treating them as secondass citizens. You know, needs to you need to have an um access, which is fairly common or that most other people use." So, I totally understand that, but that's on a new design and not an adapt adaptation of an of a historic building though, right? Like a Yeah, like we're not designing this facade from scratch, right?

If that were the case, then that's a whole other, you know, that's a different thing.

Well, okay. and and you know the the issue then becomes whether or not um I I mean that entrance we're making assumptions that people are not going to uh use it and I'm not totally sure that that is in fact the case especially since that door is a wooden door and and it really has looks like it's a residential or you know an office use so if you're looking to go to a bakery You know, I I guess once you're familiar with the building, you'd know that you'd enter through there. But I'm not sure that that is that is something which is going to be uh typical of the people who use the who who frequent the bakery.

It reminds me a little bit though of the workers house. Um the that's just past Route 90 and the owner currently has two porched openings that lead to two front doors um for this duplex and they were requesting a united front porch with a centered step up in that case with no center door. And so I think we decided that that felt a little bit like you're it's confusing and it's not natural to the sequence of entry. And in this case, I feel like these stairs are indicating the door is up the stairs and that the doors to the bakery are secondary or other. And so I think maybe Lauren or Todd mentioned one of someone mentioned signage considerations. I do think it's not intuitive what this path is. I I studied this building at some point when I think all of us were trying to figure out um who who could sort of give it a new life and I'm so grateful that you are giving it a new life. Um and it it uh yeah you will you are um and I think we have like there is enough space to ramp up after this door. It just means this wouldn't be a front porch. It would become a ramp and it still would have the same aesthetic considerations that we're concerned with now. It might not have um like the same eress issues as knowing what is the front and what's not. Um um so I think there's a bunch of different ways to do this. Um ideally we can find a way that you're happy with and we're happy with all good feedback. I'll add one or two like just little uh nuggets for consideration because of the elevation change between street and uh the door here. the steps to sort of like be standard size steps sort of essentially there isn't really a landing outside the door or there there isn't depth or a

landing outside the door were you to try and do the steps right because we I we sort of like looked at this like can you have the steps there um and there isn't the the depth uh from the sidewalk to the building to achieve the vertical and give you a landing at the top which leaves leaves you with a door that has immediate steps outside of it, which is right. Not good. Yeah.

Um and so I don't know that that's like a viable thing to go to. One of your thoughts of sort of like these two steps here, you know, our thought process was they sort of mimic some of like what is there now and sort of like it's the steps this way. Well, still I think a little bit to your point it's principally as Angie's is now is like you know principally a local's place. Um and I think everyone will sort of just know how the flow goes. Um and the the width of this is sufficient to like really have two people passing each other in alternate directions. Um versus this as an entrance which really doesn't um allow for that. this were to be your main entrance and you were to have a platform, you could just have a few steps down here and then

Yeah. Well, the thing that you have to remember is that you you have to have a landing on the other side of the door at least 4 foot. No. Yeah. So, you take you take that out. Um Okay. And and then you're talking about some steps steps. But she's saying to have a landing. Well, the thing is is that that was a loading dock. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's what they used it for. So, you're talking about uh you know, three three feet or something like that. It was elevation. Yeah.

I could figure it out with the scale, but I think that's about right. So I I mean the there is a big difference and uh I I guess the question really is is that uh putting in all of those steps uh along the the width of the U here right here. I mean it's an interesting conversation. I think Angie's actually does get a lot of outside visitors. It would be this is basically

Yeah, I would chime in on that. I feel like Angie's is by far more a visitor than a local place. It's on the weekend. I mean, it's it's always visitors. So, uh yeah, just second that, Kate. Well, that and also as far as the width goes, if you have the the existing doors swinging out, the landing has to accommodate those also. But it does drawn if we don't narrow it. If we assume the landing is an equal depth to the existing proposed porch, then then yes, it does work. Yeah.

How wide is the porch that way? And then the porch just doesn't exist here. That would be brainstorming. Yeah. I a loading dock wouldn't have had a porch in front of Well, if they put any kind of platform there, they're going to need a railing. Right. Right. Which a loading dock would never have, but it would sort of recall in volume a loading dock rather than a sort of more domestic.

And that is sort of how we did approach. I I may not have verbally pointed this out, but it's on the drawings there. There's um and Todd here. This is maybe small font to read, but there's what we did is we sort of kept a essentially a loading dock type gate loading dock type gate in front of the loading doors. Not really for any purpose other than a nod to sort of its history as a loading. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I did verbally call it out. I'm sorry.

Um and that was this nod to its history as sort of like a piece. We don't need it there as uh loading dock gates. We don't anticipate backing up lot big trucks to it, but sort of trying to nod back to its past, which I think in in this area only it would would would do that, but maybe not if it's extending across the entire facade. Is there a way to also just have one door? Is there a way to have one fixed door and one door open instead of having both at the same time so that this doesn't fall across this?

I will I will also point this out. So the um here, hold on. I just want to help keep Todd with our conversation. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And chime in if I'm not and you like want me to like direct at something, please do. Um, so we're looking at this sort of door to the left here. And really my comment is going to apply to both the um the dimension. So the way um it got drawn is as if it sort of like sits outside and there's like a sidelight. Um here, hold on, Todd. I think I can zoom this in for you. Like

yeah, that's right here. And I don't know what happened because that wasn't in a prior version of the drawing and it just got I don't know if she just like I I think what happened is she like cop like the door got as an art as an item in the drawing got moved so that it doesn't break over to your question. It doesn't break over this line. Do you have a photograph? Um yeah I mean if if you look at that it will yeah it will. Yeah, it would have it would come over at le you know it would go over not as much as that but it would it would cross that vertical would cross the original but not breaching the line

sort of this vertical line. Now I mean the other option is to keep So again my approach here was to try and like do extra work that I thought was non towards the goals here but I'm also I'm not that's why we're here is I don't have your expertise. Does it change the equation if because I you were asking about one door, but what if does it is it better to just leave the doors on the interior, the um historic doors hinged on the interior, which does leave some of it like there's no hiding um the glass pane doors. Oh, you're saying have the have these glass pane doors on the outside of the building, right? Too. Yeah,

I would not like that. Okay. Like Right. I'm trying to like fill um

but is it possible I mean is it possible to to have this closed have one oper have one historic door operable and then just have a single entrance store like a lot of shops on Main Street. Um I think the challenge is traffic is human traffic flow. Um to that uh I think that's the challenge of of a one door situation just with the kind of flow of people into a space as large as this that can

I Yeah. I also think it's probably it does I'm sure has to do with the amount of light entering the space and and it's a it is a large amount of space and the two adjacent windows are not large windows. So it it has the potential to feel quite closed off. Um

I do appreciate the the the desire to use those doors because most people would come before this board and I just want to put this on the record uh and not and not plan to do that. Uh they are in terrible condition. They are not they're not going to be like used all day every day and be able to with withstand real high traffic. So I appreciate you know your desire to preserve them in some some aspect. Um are you so are because I can't see you know when you guys are pointing at stuff are Kate and Lauren I think are you

um concerned with their change to be outward opening or is it just in could could you just explain I think I think what I'm concerned with is if they are I I'm concerned that they will remain fixed out really because they're gonna not be used and then they're I would honestly assume that that is going to be how it be concerned about this huge volume at that side of that that creates at that at that point in the facade. It's a proportional issue. Yeah. Got it. So

I do think that that that um given their age I would I have a feeling that they will be left open most of the time. They are not going to be the primary security. They're not going to be locking the way that the interior glass and aluminum doors are. So, I have a feeling they will most likely be left open. So, that is a valid point to bring up. I think if the Well, what would what would be the alternative? I mean,

so one alternative is that the uh east or page left um door remains shut and fixed and then the right door is technically operable and it could be shut just you know at the end to represent that it's the end of the day. Um and that beyond that door there's a glass door that during the day is the primary egress door used. Um, and then we could work on what that glass door looks like. Um, I mean, if the interior is industrial, I'm open to a metal door. Probably not aluminum, but like a thin black and steel that somehow sort of nods to a more industrial interior. Um, especially if that railing goes away and the egress is up from the west train station side. um for those doors. Um I think there are solutions. That's sort of

I think that could be an elegant way of of of um of doing it, Kate. And then and then basically this whole this becomes more of a platform and stairs and then this all goes away and then that you have the accessible entrance on the rear. All right. So then it's no longer a handicapped accessible entrance. That's true. Well, it's not the building as drawn would require sort of additional

as as drawn. It it is what we will do. Um maybe if I'd sort of lay out some of like the timeline. So the rear deck isn't for well further into the future like not near term. the and this I think we're we're in the midst of finalizing with the village and engineer and attorney and everything so that this work which is just if I come back here Todd I'm going to try to keep you up to speed here so that the this piece here because all that's needed is essentially just a little bit more of the blue stone paving that brings it up to here um point here in the row.

Yeah. Um and we're sort of on the cusp of that with the village. Um so that is essentially I think that will be completed in conjunction with this versus this is years down the road. And I will you know again just sort of like put it out there for my perspective. I I think our village is especially challenging for people who are not as ambulatory as everybody else. Yeah. people who really owners who just say like I can't get into your store. Yeah.

And creating spaces that allow for that to me, especially spaces that are where community gathers and where you take your family for meals and connectivity. That stuff to me feels like an important goal for the village, which doesn't have to do with the historic charm and sort of context, but to me feels like an important part of what happens in our village from a from a larger design perspective.

Um, sort of the urban planning as it were of the village. Um, and so I I will politely with love and deep respect push a bit on the idea of like of trying to keep what is designed here with plenty of modifications towards this goal of both helping a business activate what is a large and otherwise historically like um you know dilapidated space and sort of bring it back and do so in a way that sort of is accessible for the the broader whole population including just people who've got a mom in a wheelchair. chair um or someone you know like lots of baby strollers like lots of different things. Um

so I with with all respect I will nudge back towards that versus some of the alternates that strip that part away. Especially be to me the be the the like coincidental beauty of this working out to be that but have have that possibility feels important to not like let that coincidental opportunity like be left to the side. Would it be possible to have a ramp? So have a landing here and then have a ramp going from this side so that it could be accessible room needs to be one on 12. Yeah.

And and that's I think the thing that gets most buildings it uh is they don't have the frontage to allow for the gradualness. Uh and most buildings also don't have the width to do a double back. Um

well that and also we have done what they're proposing on a number of properties here. For example, there was that um I forget there was a uh what the address is, but there was a um building which had separate entrances uh due to the fact that there was a change in elevation as far as the front and and what they did was they put in uh a level platform all the way across. So, Huh?

On Main Street. on Main Street and also uh the that place that is um uh on the lower part of Main Street used to be a hu

okay would the wine bar is yeah that's that's right the wine bar so you know it's not unusual and and I think nowadays and because I do remember at one point uh we had some people from the state come in and they were talking about uh coming up with ways of providing uh handicapped accessibility uh on Main Street because Main Street's the the main uh attraction for the village and uh due to the fact that we have the steep grades uh a lot of um stores are not accessible. And so

I think in those other cases though, there's no other access to the building. There's no other possible access to the building. And in this case, because it's on the corner, there is this possibility. There is. I will point out there are so there are easements that have to be vacant. There's a lot of things that I have to do to get this to be viable. I want to be clear and honest with you and like always show what I'm thinking and where I'm going, but this is not turnkey or definitive. Just for clarity, back parking lot going to be utilized. Will that be for uh diners? Uh sort of like the the area that's back here. So I mean this is I see space back here for parking.

There's not like I mean there's like a there's additional uh square footage but not like for not for vehicular like real parking. Uh there'll be sort of a a dumpster bin back here. Um, and you can pull in and sort of park along here as needed for delivery. Stop off.

Yeah. Sort of uh can pull in off the street here. Um, but this has So, one of the things, as I'm sure you're very well aware, our village has a lot of water issues because of our slopes. And so, this is where a whole bunch of stuff drains to. And we've got a whole set of pipes that come in and sort of culverts and a collection bin that then turn and go through. So, there are water easements. And I'm working with the village board to try to navigate through helping the village uh as part of this like hey let me go do this but let me like let's go clean up uh and improve the uh the sort of the water flow situation in the back. Um yeah. So because this isn't guaranteed when you know

in advance of this is there you have an existing back porch here. Is there a way to have just a very very basic wood ADA ramp to access this door? This is a gravel um road here. So I I don't think not in a way that like what do we have? We have signs, you know, all right, all you handicap people go this way to to enter. I mean, yeah, I totally agree. But we are charged with protecting the historic fabric of that. Like that's what we are that's what this board is charged with,

right? I understand that and and I I have been on this board long enough to be understand that. But the issue the issue is is that uh you know the it's a living village and and usually I mean we uh we apply very readily or approve very readily solar panels now you know is there anything historic about solar panels

and why do we approve it because it's it it's an acknowledgment of the fact that there is technology which would help us live and I think you What we're talking about here is uh you know acknowledging the fact that we have a certain portion of the population that has uh you know problems as far as uh reaching the uh the places that most people have no problem getting to and and to sort of consigning them to and because the issue that you're talking about is that I I think if we had if this building was a historic historic uh building that uh can sit there and uh say, "Well, um Lincoln came in and he he drove up and you know, this is where he spent the night and and this is how we get that would be a different story. This is a an old building which is in a historic district and I think that there is a certain amount of uh acknowledgment that it is a historic it is appropriate to the district. And so my feeling is is that I don't think we should tie ourselves down with uh with trying to make this something that isn't. I mean we have a lot of buildings uh in the village which have been modified um even though it was there's no historic precedent but it's an acknowledgment of the fact that we're now in the 21st century as opposed to the uh 19th century.

So looking at that to aim to get ADA access on the front facade. I wonder if we do need to assess this interior location because it is possible to widen this space and make this the primary egress which would then eliminate the need for ramping and porches etc. Just everyone would flow through here because this is unlike solar panels this is a more irreversible decision whereas the solar panel just comes off the roof and all the conduit and it's gone. So it is a different thing I would argue. It it isn't a different thing because it's something that the building has to live with. For example, we have a we had a whole bunch of um these uh cute Victorian uh houses on on the street. I think it's what's the street that is just north of the the Catholic church? Not so fair street but then the one

right the fair street is that goes in the front but the one on the next thing there are a bunch of and the thing is is that they were very small houses

and there was a family there that had children and so they looked to add to and you know that was we we had workshops there was a struggle because uh the issue was is he didn't want to modify the existing building too much, but we came up with a solution which added square footage to the building so that it could be used and and that's what you want. you you want you want to make changes which will enable people to continue to use the building because I I've seen too many instances and not here but in other places where uh you know changes couldn't be made because of historic restrictions and buildings were left abandoned not occupied or they were and ultimately they uh were demolished by

Yeah. I think we are all excited for this building to be used and I'm I think we can find a way to make it ADA accessible. I know maybe you are very opposed to it being in the rear and you're saying that that is years off any of this but I I do think what we are a lot of board members are saying here is that this is a lot to add to the front of the building which is historically had a stark presence and maybe it is working in some kind of ADA accessible entrance here

instead um and it doesn't and then you're not relegated to the back but maybe there's another way to do it than to have this porch with with all as designed. Okay, I'm I'm up for that. Let me let me toss out something and and you can take a look at it and see what you think.

Well, it Yeah, whatever. The issue is is that we're dealing with this door, which you know, we have all sorts of issues as far as uh reusing that door. of the the doors. But is there any reason why uh you couldn't have another entrance someplace here? Uh no. Uh so if I sort of point the same thing you're pointing and I'm going to try to do it here up on the screen for Todd as well. Meaning essentially take this what is this window here which is this one here and Todd or how about this window the one next to it

or to that is there can we talk about this as the door I and what that would mean I I shine in just from a structurally I can't widen and create I I don't think I can succeed at creating the turn here because of the structural pieces here, but I don't know that I can succeed at right there. Um, and this is a structural post you're saying? Yeah, I think there is a structural one here. I don't know. It's not shown on the plan. This is your grid, right? But it looks like also you have another that's for the stairs, right?

Uh, that's not for the stairs. That's this is part of the support for the upstairs. Uh, and that there's one here. There's sort of a if I recall there's sort of like some kind of nonsup support here but with some cross bracing and then another one here and another one here. Uh I just don't I don't think that I can achieve wheelchair turn dimensions here let alone I don't think it's worth I mean that would be that would be a really great solution and then could eliminate which also would change. Thank you. Take care. Have a great night.

I think I mean it would be a new door as well from a dimension perspective. I think you're saying that's not a 3ft door or two. I know what ADA is. I think it's 32. So 210 28 to me. I can d I can double check that. I will. So

I mean the other option that that I was talking about is is taking this window and uh and creating a door there. I think that's I think that's possible in the sense of but I but I do think I need a sort of a a double width door. So to me and again this is your area of purview but if I look at the facade right so Todd it's this window here creating a that changes the build to me and again this is I want to be differential to you to me that's creates more change there than what I'm trying to get done right

um I I will mention it did have an approved porch before that got mentioned before that there was no porch before um it didn't get built but it did get approved approved for this building at some point and the HDRB that yeah it was not it was an idea someone had was never built and it was never approved by the board we can't consider that

um does it change I mean again I'm sort of spitballing with you all as well like does it change if the, you know, Todd a little bit echoing to your point about the railing and pivoting to wood, which I'm totally uh fine with. Um, if the front facade of the porch and the deck is like adjusted to match what is some of, you know, there's a mixture of front porch stad the the footer of the deck style. Some are, you know, wood within a lattice work sort of um fill in the paneling, you know, do those things influence it sufficiently to help adjust the perspective, you know, if it starts to look even more akin to some of the other things. You know, we have some that are the stone uh and some can't think of one that's like a brick fill, but I'm sure there is one. Um, it's definitely And I guess

could I just could I just ask um Kate and Lauren, are you um are you opposed to the deckiness appearance of this? Are you would you be happier with it being more reading as a sort of a a stone patio with steps to the sidewalk or are you not liking the idea of any sort of raised structure element in front of the building? I I think that I am okay with having a a like a platform in front of the double doors of the building and having some sort of entrance to those double doors. But I think that um visually this is a lot on the front of this building.

So it's it's like it it reading the fact that it really reads as like as a deck with deck railings. Yeah. Fundamentally underneath. And the problem to overcome is that in order for it to um there is not enough uh depth there for it to serve as um as a wheel wheelchair access point along with steps down to the sidewalk. Right. Okay.

Correct. And maybe I'll just add a couple other notes of sort of like how we came some things. So Todd, on the railing type, um you mentioned not rot iron. One of the things we had speced was uh fully like simple, and this sort of speaks exactly to what you're saying, like simple straight line, no uh no sort of um ornamentation, you know, krenellation type things, just very straight. And part of the reason why we I'd oriented towards that, which I think speaks a little bit to your thing, was a black railing, you know, with just space disappears visually more quickly than a painted wood with railing where the the pieces are bigger because while I have to, you know, meet code enforcement and all that kind of stuff for safety and and whatnot, the hope is to sort of have this railing feel like it disappears a bit and it's just essentially nodding back, as you mentioned, Kim, sort of to it being like a platform for a loading duck kind of still keeping sort of the industrialness of it. So, I'm fine with pivoting to wood, but at least explaining some of the rationale of like why we why I approached it the way I did was to like it doesn't that doesn't show up in the drawings the way we sort of see them here, but like I think you all are familiar like

black thin things sort of disappear from our visual. I walk into my garden fence all the time and it is black thin between posts that are 12 feet apart and I'm just not paying attention and I think I can walk into this part of the garden and I we're allowing table sometimes for rear porches just it visually falls away in our brains. Yeah. And to be clear I'm not stylistically I'm not objecting to a contemporary addition to it to this. I think it's it's the the volume. Yeah. Well, I was just trying to describe I I tried to make some of that volume disappear, right? Yeah. But I hear you.

Are there other aspects that help it the the volume to use that term like fade away? It it is part of it the outward swinging doors because that feels like maybe that's part of what's also triggering some of the reaction is the sort of volume of the doors being pivoted to an outside swing.

Well, I think that certainly exacerbates the uh the image. Um, I think that if the doors could be used somehow rehabilitated and and uh made more uh usable, repaired, huh? Repaired. Yeah. um that you know maybe that would sort of uh reduce that amount of uh of things going on in that part of the the building.

I don't I don't know that I can achieve success. I mean I plan to sort of like rehabilitate the doors. I don't think I can achieve success at making them the doors that are the like constant in-n-out door. That that is a that is a a giant stretch. A giant giant stretch. It's not gonna happen for someone to use them, you know.

I do think Kate I do think Kate or Lauren, I forget which who said it earlier, the idea of having one fixed closed with a glass door and the other one, you know, um the glass door swinging in and the other leaf of the original door swinging out where it's done. It could be done kind of gracefully. I think that is a nice idea. Um, and it definitely kind of hearkens back more to what the original use of that that um, entrance to the building is. I I think like we all sort of or not maybe not we all but earlier when we're talking about both leafs being used and out swinging outward, I I also think it's a stretch to think that they're going to get used on a regular basis to close them. So visually then they become essentially like decorative shutters and what what are we really doing at that point? Um

is that is that a thing? Right. So the who's the users are Ken and Angie who you know some of you may be familiar with you know for now right like let's assume forever but I'm I assume this could be another tenant in the future.

Uh correct right I mean they've got a 10 plus yearly you know so like but but sure like that I think that could happen. Um, but is it is that a thing where we sort of speak to them and say like, "Hey, this is what we want like we need the doors to close on a nightly basis." I think that is honestly what what they said their plan. Um, but is that a thing that helps andor on lower traffic days leaving the one to the east or the left as we're looking at it here closed on, you know, not high traffic days. I don't think that we can base a a functional sort of large change to the building based on uh desired behavior from people. It sort of goes back to my thinking that, you know, people take a step up to a door likely to open the door than to walk, you know, 20 ft down a deck to what looks like another door. It's like human behavior kind of stuff. And especially as regards to this, it's like once it's done, you know, they could it could just be like, oh yeah, we'll close it every night and then it never gets closed again. And at that point, it's done and we have literally no recourse. We can't force force that to be done.

I agree. Which is why I feel in my mind for now anyway, there are two options. And one is that the current existing man door is used as the main grass for the first floor and for the upper floors and it's reconfigured on the interior and there's no porch and these are just um uh remaining shut or open to the interior with like a fixed glass modern glass punch that allows light to come through and

explain that slightly. um you would maintain the existing barn doors uh swinging to the interior and then they could appear open um and it would look like there's just a sheet of glass again maybe with a steel detailing something to nod to the industrial interior um and the other option would be having one of these doors fixed in place and the other um operable swinging out with a glass door swinging in same sort of industrial aesthetic. I'm open to other things, but that's sort of what I would see. And then as much railing as possible eliminated. Um, so if this door is fixed, maybe the railing is ending just here. And then the ramp, there's a platform and there'd be a ramp down to here. And so there would be a clear egress up to this door and a clear egress to this door. And they're differentiated. So there'd be no Angie's customers going to the offices. That's but I'm not you know

I think that's a great solution. either either one of those would be a great solution. And that where does the egress uh sorry where does the handicap accessible go at that point? So for that one the handicap accessibility I think because the higher grade is to the east upper village it would have to um start just west of the um existing mandor and uh ramp up from there. So, the ramp would be between the the two doors. Oh, okay. Okay. Um, and some of that might not have to have we'd have to look at how the railing would work, but it could be simplified in some way that's specific to the ramp.

I don't know that I can. So, another point to point out the the basement access and egress and bilco door thing. don't know how to physically do what you just described and and achieve or retain that egress. And is there additional egress to that space in the rear? No. And you'd be using that to keep it

and there's no way to introduce an an a handicap accessible door on the east side of the building, the Lara side. We you guys established that. I mean, I suppose in this instance, the main door, well, no, it wouldn't work. it would still then become this door. That would be if you know you had steps coming to here and then you'd have to divert people who had wheelchairs but also every other person in this village has a stroller right now. Um you know that also be that so it's not ideal. No, sorry the the the um the east side not the not the north side that that east

in there. Did you already establish that there's no way to do that to change one of those windows for a door? I mean,

it uh it sort of and and this is maybe a moment to sort of point to this. I I I very much want to achieve I think you can tell I I really try and want to achieve things. There is there are those challenge points where in order to like the commercial achieving commercial success and affording to go take care of a building and sort of honor its past, do all those things, those sometimes are at cross odds, right? And this is where we sort of get into things like some of what I am trying to achieve is making a space that works for people who want to operate a business in it. And this is maybe a, you know, me going on a a soapbox moment, but like and a business that I spent a long time sort of seeking out and turning away other businesses that aren't good for village residents, right? Like we don't need the many fancy jewelry stores or cannabis to spend like the things that people were willing to pay a lot more to be in this space aren't what we need in our village. And I sought out and tried to create a space that achieves a lot of the goals. And I know that's not the purview of this board per se, but I will sort of nudge towards again I it feels like the larger context of the village and the things we're trying to achieve here. While some of the aspects of the of the porch don't aren't perfect, you know, it in a historical context, it's a it's a achieving the balance point between allowing me to redevelop the building that has otherwise been one of our biggest blights on Main Street and the entrance and the first thing people see for the last 20 years coming to the village and achieve modest commercial success while still broadly trying to do all the right things to fit into But this is our first time, right? So we're going through these.

So this is Yes. From a flow perspective, this is a whole coffee bar and sort of like their their u uh essentially they're splitting their flow of some of the baked good and all the coffee flow. Uh so coffee flow Todd, sorry. Okay. Coffee flow here. Okay. and bakery distribution here. Um like an 18 foot. Yeah. Then also you have the stairs going up to the second floor. Yeah, those are here.

Those come through about here. This is a the stairs are sort of um doing that thing in your ceiling where it's like cut off a bit through hereish. Um, and to them this, you know, and this is where it gets into, and I know this is not the purview per se, the inside and whatnot, but like having this function is sort of an important part of how this functions inside. And I don't I don't think changing and creating the entrance here lets them have the flow that that they've attempted to try and create. But could it be a again none of this might work but just I don't that I don't mind at all. I I love that

like if this is a secondary egress it could help access you know future you're asking for this land etc and tables. Um I don't think this will be yeah keep going. Sorry. Um I'm just thinking then those doors become more tertiary but there is a way to sort of have this connected through a door here or through a door here. And if this is, you know, if they can forego 5 feet of this, then you can still get this program within this space. Um, or else why not make that the main entrance to the the bakery and just close off where the Yeah.

Mhm. Just close off the other doors. That would be hard. You're saying to access Angie's, you have to come this way. They want I think that's what Brian's talking about as far as um commercializing it, you know, entrance. Well, they have to be able financially and I think they're to them having, you know, sort of what is designed here or a variation on theme helps them have mainstream visibility and the customer flow that sort of comes with that. Um, you know, the prime retailness of that. I mean, I I go past London Terrace all the time,

and so that side of the building is as prominent as the uh main street side. So I I just have a hard time believing that that would be uh you know a detriment to their business as opposed to moving the entrance onto the LER side because basically what you're talking about is from the corner just walking down this that path and and entering the or I think for the visitors which a lot of people obviously as we all know are coming off of the train and through the tunnel. Yeah,

that is a stretch. Like the front of the building is what reads as like, okay, if you don't

I mean, you know, people don't put a lot of thought into action into their actions, which brings me back to like the fact that that door is what people are going to probably use is if it's not easy and in your face, people tend to a lot of times, you know. What if we were to keep the um the names for the entrance as the address to Angie's and then somewhere just to the side to the on the east facade Lterra side an entrance which is more common and maybe beneficial to the offices to the second floor. So you're coming up

and Jesus is here. But I think a lot of this has this doesn't exist right now. This is just it does. This does. The stair does. You built it out, do you mean? Yeah. Well, the the stair is historic. I mean, not not claiming like historic status, but it's been there and pre-existing for a long Yeah. It's pre-existing and it's been there since the get-go. Get too excited. I see these images, right, that are so open and I just think this is like all in that space. You have an opportunity to reconfigure. That's that's fear, right? Mhm. Maybe it's a bit further. It's one, two, three bays. There's That's the back room. I just can't.

Yeah, that's the back room. And then there's one, two main columns. And then those uh 2x4s are here. So that's that's the framing for the Yeah. So this framing Yeah. There's like a box out right there in the original plans and the stairs are right. This was like I mean this is nothing but this they're showing that there's a storage closet here in the stairs there. So this is storage closet. Yeah. I mean it's built out as bathrooms now. So So you've progressed the interior. Oh yeah. Design in advance. This is mostly all based that we have the approvals.

Yeah. No based on the outside. It just it hems us in for exterior options and I'm not sure that that's I I hear what you're saying though Kate like having another door here that's accessible

that's ADA accessible and then you can you can I think what we're I think what we're most of us are saying is that this as as this is a lot and this is a lot and we'd like to see some sort of um flows, you know, keeping keeping this sort of around the original door surround as the as the target dimension, right, for that part, whether whether that's the doors, one of the doors fixed or there's like a glass,

but we want and we're saying have this be the main entrance if possible and then an ADA accessibility either on the side there or if there's a way to do it to a platform there. this pivoting or retaining these doors this pivot inside. Just going back to because some of what you're saying is like have less door out here like that that's I'm very open to that option. I mean rather than than thinking of the existing doors as the doors but the existing doors are mounted on some uh let's say steel frame. Mhm.

So that they can be used and and that you're not counting on uh the wood surviving the use. Mhm. I mean is that a possibility?

Yeah. I mean the you know at least in my conversations with Ken Banchi what we had the way we'd approach it is to you know really strengthen the doors and the hinges. And I'll go I'll make maybe mention briefly because um uh you also mentioned um Todd about the oh the build out of the door frame the the frame depth and the wall depth as is would allow us to have the metal door sit on the inside of the building envelope and so there isn't an exterior change to the sort of door frame around it. That is yeah very yeah that's great. That would be

uh because you sort of I'm just touching back to a thing Todd had mentioned before about being worried about that like needing to build out and we wouldn't need to do that as currently designed. They would just hinge. They would sit inside the current door pocket as they do now. But now the hinges would be at the edges and that it is a sturdy or we would reinforce it but and I think we can reinforce the doors and have them be operable on a like that has been the conversation with Ken and Angie is they plan to close them and but Todd and everyone else I fully respect the commentary about you can't depend on that but at least for me sharing like that has been a thing. So to your point the goal is to make them strong so that they can be done. I I don't think I need to do that with an additional steel frame to just based on the doors. The real issue is just the weight of the door. It's not a it's not a consumer door. It's a it's a you are moving a big heavy door even on well balanced um

all right. Well then the solution or the an answer to that is uh you can increase the number of hinges. Typically uh you know large doors will have three hinges uh but if it gets heavier then you you go to four uh and you increase the size of the hinges. The other uh option is to go to uh piano hinges the whole length. Yeah. The whole length.

Yeah. So I'm open to all those which will make them op very you know operable and uh sturdy and that that that essentially is my plan and the multiple hinges was sort of like one of the things that we need to it's more the moment of inertia weight of the door that I think is is the challenge for a customer to you know to use as the the like daily use doors. Um, how about um pivot hinges? Are you trying to propose a a way of using the existing wood doors as the sole primary entry and egress door? Yes. Yes.

I I I feel like that is a a giant ask. Uh and like I said earlier, 99% of applicants would be trying to replace them entirely. So, still leaves us with an issue that that's becomes the main egress and we have to ramp up to it or have a railing etc. I'm I I maybe it's just we've been doing this a while and we'll have to regroup but I feel like yes technically you can get a permit to do interior work but then to come to us and say well now I have to do it this way for the exterior because I've drawn done the interior I'm like

the door that would be the correct door to use because you've designed us into a corner like that just feels so unfair. So, I'm like at the point where I need a probably need a break to come back fresh and happy every and I did that isn't what I meant to say. Like I just was trying to give you what is accurately like there. Um we used what was already framed out for the bathrooms, you know, like

just like 2x4. I think um could I could I just maybe say what I feel like my ideal kind of situation and a little bit of I think a takeaway from several people's comments is um if there is a way to have the handicap accessible entrance on the east facade somewhere that is preferable. You are at grade there. If there is a way to do that that is preferable for me. Um, as regards the original double doors that are on the far right side of the main facade, if there is a way to have a single fix side, um, the other side be operable out swinging and then a glass door that opens into the building that's easier to use for customers, for everyone, that feels great. Um, and then as as far as a deck or some kind of patio across the entire front, I think what may look best and what may actually get customers to use that as the main entrance is to leave the current or, you know, have a couple steps up to that wood door all all the way to the left and then create a raised patio sort of system with steps in front of the double the double doors. only in front of that area so that people coming off the train, people walking down the street, people walking from the depot, etc., see a glass, you know, a a big double door set, one of them is open with a glass door signage that reads to me very obvious as this is the entrance to the building. And that far left solid wood door at that point reads would read very much as this is a this is um a door that goes to the upstairs or to something in the back. this is not for customers to use. And then we eliminate that the for lack of a better word giant deck deckiness kind of thing that's overwhelming the front.

We're eliminating maybe the the the need for large segments of railing. Uh you you would probably need some kind of railing to guide people up and down steps maybe for for for safety, but you're eliminating so much of the bulk off the front of a building. Um, I think that would be a very elegant way to achieve the goal. And this is, you know, this is again assuming we can figure out the handicap uh accessible from that other facade. But that gives the primary, it would very much read this is the entrance to the bakery. Uh, you have, you know, you're maintaining the original wood doors while also creating more light by having a glass in swing door on half of that. Um, and it's not really disturbing the original facade. Very well said, Todd. And I think that really sums up um the majority of the comments and I would agree. And

yeah, yeah, I would love to see a proposal like that. And for for the bakery, it's more evident to people that that is the entrance to the bakery rather than walking all the way to the end of the building. And then you're also not relegating you're also not relegating any wheelchair um you know you're not relegating anyone in a wheelchair with a stroller to like go around the back. It's also a very obvious you know ground level kind of easily accessible entrance on that side. You're talking about on the east side. East side. Yeah. If there's a way of incorporating it there.

Okay. Well, well, the thing is is that um I I think that so what you're proposing is that there the the doors not be essentially the the double doors where the uh the wood doors swing out and uh the um glass doors swing in. You're talking about uh just one of the doors being operable and basically having a small little platform which are are uh accessed by stairs only.

Yeah, I don't necessarily think it needs to be small either. I mean, I think it could extend a good portion of the right side of that building and be, you know, prominent in some way. I don't think it needs to be, you know, Yeah. I mean, the the stairs, yeah, the stairs would have to come up from the driveway because you have the the uh Vilco door on the other side. So, you don't have enough room to fit in the stairs, right? So, Todd, so they'd have to come up from the from the drive. Yeah. From there. Yeah. So, then coming down Main Street, you could enter that way or coming up from the train, you go this way.

And if you have to have use the ADA, you go in on the side there. Such a work space and that green. It's very that would be a very inviting front facade to me. It makes this easier for you daytoday and get rid of some of the like veneer under porch which felt a little bit odd to have like brick under a wood deck like that.

Yeah. after we pivot to I'm happy to go to a different you know we didn't come back to that and maybe I may go through some of those things so whatever the design elements are like are there other categories that we sort of talked about like I have some questions on the door material um because I had gone white to match trim but that I think I've I think I've gotten sort of consensus that a sort of brushed bronze or dark, you know, sort of black, you know, do we have a little bit of orientation consensus that you can

I would say for me um that this area should like, you know, you're putting a contemporary intervention in here though and so I would I would go to recalling the industrial kind of so that's like a deal or you know if it if it's the infinite black door then it's interior to the facade and to me that's then Yeah. A thin profile steel door that you're calling industrial. It's not like a thick aluminum storefront door, right? Yeah. It's a older older industrial style kind of window. Are we saying that one of the doors is going to remain fixed? Yes. I think and only one door is operable.

So this this one would be fixed and this is the operable door. And then even if that does get left open sometimes like it's still I think that creates a pretty weird flow. Yeah. This opens or if you're coming up here this is an easier door to open and and I will well if they're opening there though it doesn't matter actually because this could then be fixed. Yeah.

So you're pushing it but that's an issue. And I'll sort of nudge back towards like I have a double door opening there now. And I think for their the benefit of their business and just having people flow in now that's preferred. Is there like and and Todd like I go to the thing you said like this is what I'm trying not to propose but should I just remove these doors and go to a like I was trying to

you know that's why I would prefer if those uh the existing doors get rebuilt. I I think ultimately uh to me that that that's more of a uh historical reference than um all of the other things we were talking about.

They need to stay in some form and that's one yeah that's one solution. I do think also if if you do add this ADA east then that helps with capacity and overflow. So, if it's busy and people are coming in out the front door, locals know they can slip out the ADA door. It's easier to sort of move through the space. I don't think we're, you know, I can think of maybe only the apothecary that has those double doors. Um, uh, for that size space now, the way it's cut up into three bays, I don't think that's even needed for her store. Um, and no other Yeah. event is the Ascend Center. They have two doors, but you only ever really open it on the side. One

on the front. And then they have a They have Yeah. On the side. The front is double. Um but I don't I don't know. Yeah. The I I think that uh everybody's overestimating uh the weight of operating these uh existing wood doors. I think that there are ways of making that as simple as possible. There are uh you know, for example, pivot hinges you can you can get so that they're power assisted.

Yeah, I thought of that too. But the door itself, you know, there's like I mean, I'm exaggerating maybe, but you slaps with holes in between and there's, you know, wind is going to be pouring through these. And so you can't have an operable door and another operable door. You can't have to walk through two doors, right? So

I think the assumption would be that those doors would be Al, you use the word rebuilt. Those the assumption would be those doors are going to be replaced and replicated with something new that's meant to look like what's there if you're trying to accomplish modern usage uh for a commercial space using you you know which would be another option another avenue to to potentially pursue but I think the idea that those existing wood doors are going to get used by dozens or hundreds of people a day is not realistic. I think one of the ch I'll mention this and you know I I've put a lot of effort into sort of creating a you know a tight airsealed space inside and for for a lot of sustainability reasons and and that's sort of like we talked about that before another just trying to do the right thing. Um, and that that's my concern is succeeding at taking the doors that are there now. And and I guess the way I would say it is like the cost of like it may it may be doable, but I don't know how to succeed at that without that becoming an extremely custom job that I'm like I think it is like creating a custom frame on maybe, you know, power assisted pivot hinges. That frame is really the thing that is sitting inside the door. And I've taken a glass panel instead of a glass panel inside the door, I've taken an old historic piece of, you know, the entire frame door and done it.

You know, maybe we should see because I'm just looking at Google maps um some sort of images of the doors and their current sort of configuration, etc. And to help weigh sort of what Well, the historic photographs that uh I think you you found, right? Uh uh that doesn't even have the addition these are what three foot doors at the sixft opening. You mean the national foot door, you know the photograph that you had sent across

wouldn't be too big. But I mean it seemed like it was too blurry to see anything like I don't know that we could see that. Well, you can't see that. That's just it. Uh you can see the the the main house and then to the right of it is something else. It's not the addition. Right. Okay. So So the thing is I I I think that what we're trying to deal with is the the long drawn out platform is questionable. All right. Building. That's the building there. have a shed.

Well, you can't tell. I There's that he had that's the building and that's not even there anymore. You know what? The photo from 1975 actually looks like there's another another door directly next to those double doors. I think there from the interior I think there may have been. Yeah. Let me So, do you feel like you have a summary of like what we're sort of asking for? Uh, yes. There there are I think it's the same one.

I should say too, usually I'm not the one to say it, but there are one, two, three, four, five of us. We all have slightly different opinions. I think you need three of us convinced to progress this and ultimately three of us to vote in your favor at a public hearing if that's helpful. Well, actually, we haven't heard from Kimberly. So Kim, your thoughts so that at this hour so that so that Brian can, you know, come up with a consensus and

and and maybe if I can make one because a little bit to that point like I guess what I would ask for the board to help to help me with is I I think I if I just say this very plainly like this is not a money-making endeavor. I'm not succeeding in having a money-making endeavor. And I sort of knew that a bit going into this and I'm okay with that to a certain extent. The more the the the the requirements stack, it starts to move it into a place where like it's it's really not and it becomes challenging to succeed, right? If I go back and the bakery says, you know what, we don't because of these changes like we don't want this like there there's sort of like cascading dominoes of effects. So with again with all the respect for the members you know expertise and and and the goal of the board which I was just talking with my whole leadership team because I was telling them why I wasn't at our leadership dinner and I was like here and um you know I I care a lot about trying to do the right thing like that for me is you know as you were coming in that's what Marjorie and I were talking about is like just I I believe in trying to do the right thing and and hold to my beliefs. I'm really trying to do that, but I ask and implore for sort of like meeting me as much as you can. Trying to like target towards things like even just switching the windows, Todd, to like be the slightly different ones was, you know, like many tens of thousands of dollars to just switch out windows that I already had set in place. And and I'm okay like that.

So, you get my point. And the thing is And the thing is is that we in fact try to work with you. That's the whole point of this. Uh and uh I think that while you're you obviously you're concerned about some of the things which would cost more like we're talking about uh reworking the two u doors and and making them the operable doors. uh if you do that what you wind up doing is eliminating the cost of a lot of the platforms a lot of the the deck uh goes away.

So you know there are some ultimately you need to take a look at it and see what works for you and uh and your tenant uh and you know that's why I think we need Kim's uh thoughts. Yeah. So, one of the things that I like about this building is that it is a classic that things are in weird places. The historical photograph does look like there was another door next to these big wooden doors.

I think she's Well, and maybe Todd, you even mentioned this, so I think you've seen what she's referring to. Yeah. No. to the right. Look like it shifts. Yeah. Down. So, there were those big doors that were probably right. Unless the image is doors to get to the But see how that's the lower header in here? That looks like that's maybe the double doors and then a lower door. There be a lower door in this location. Interesting idea. Well, either that or else that is a covered door,

you know, something which covers the show Brian so he knows what the Yeah. Bizarre image. Oh, yeah. It shifts down. So, it's not And that that's the door that's there now. Yeah. Next to it. Just Yeah. No. No. But I mean, it's not like it's a different door. It also be like a crazy photo. No, I mean that that's the door. No, I mean it could be that was the people door and then you had a loading dock door to all the stuff. But,

you know, unfortunately looking at the inside here, this seems like an obvious place to put a a handicapped accessible door because it's on grade. You don't have to build this elaborate deck to have people. And from a traffic flow, you wouldn't want to have people walking all the way up here, turning, and then going into a bakery. They're tired. They're getting off the train to have steps here going into the bakery. Or I think just for act we I don't think we can go. Well, I mean, just but but not this walking up here to making a turn. we going

maybe your locals have this like secret VIP entrance. I'm hoping having designed some restaurants before that this is like kind of And you'll be like, "Oh, this was like a like 20 ft. I don't need that much. I can chop off four or five feet in." Would uh do we have an issue if there's still a window here? So, so like if I explore this for a minute, the sort of like adding a door here in place of the window, how do we feel about then there being another window here? This space has adding a window here. Correct. Like this becomes a door and then another window.

And that's assuming that you need a wall here because there's now a different space. Say that again. Oh yeah. Yeah. like a this maybe a glass door helps the space. I think I would be a minimal to that because it's such a Yeah, eclectic facade. You know, things were sort of just like that weird little door here that got closed up. They were just things were put in places that were convenient to the bas on functionality. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

To narrate some of what their hope and goal is, um, is, you know, and this is why they're choosing not they don't want to open until we succeed at getting this is to sort of have the customer, you know, they they talked a bit about their business and sort of how in the modern era like your reviews and and like the experience of people is like that that sort of first impression experience is like what sets the tone for the success or nonsuccess. And Craig at the general store is wicked brilliant on this topic. I've heard him like, you know, I don't say pontificate in a bad way, but like really espouse a lot of like expertise at exactly how he thinks about creating this thing that creates the experience. And so for them, part of their business thing is how they've really spent a lot of time trying to design how it flows and having this space create. And some of the things that they are tackling just to put out here for sort of internal plan flow things is is not having the entrance be right up against the bathrooms for if there were a handful of reasons. sort of like the the bathroom aspect of the bathrooms um as well as just the bathroom issue within Cold Spring on Main Street, trains, tourists, all that stuff and having people essentially be coming in and out and using the bathrooms but not being a customer and not in, you know, coming in but still

I will still have that issue anyway if people are coming in this store unless there's someone like here or the bathrooms are locked that this is these will be used constantly. Well, that and also this is right across from the public bathrooms uh on the other side of Main Street. If you eliminate that deck, you can have I mean thinking to Craig in the general store. This is your property. So, you can have your like lounge chairs and hang out down here. You could have a couple tables down there, but then this entrance is really clear and friendly to that side. This entrance is clear. the sentence of

well then does that coming to come to that like you know does that how it is that a tilt so do we create like terrorist depths to like give them that I would space fine I mean you would have sort of a rail here to take the stairs down but from this rail over here meaning yeah if this area is now accessible just from the street front and you want people like grabbing a coffee and sitting. Then I think you could have this be like a flat stone plant and you just have sort of like at this elevation. Yeah. Common with cold spring, right?

And it could be you have that huge stone slab there, you know? It could be sort of something in that spirit. Yeah. I I just don't understand the logic of of why you would fool around with this. If you have this as as the access and you're rebuilding the the the um the doors, I would cut the, you know, cut it off over there and just not have anything to the right of it.

That's what we're saying. But we're also leftover land that's underutilized and it could be street furniture. It could just be leveling it out. It could be so that there's like a coffee and burrito cart when people are rushing on Fifth Avenue. I mean that's like but you know what I mean? It's like it's underutilized. Could be just plantings that are beautiful but there could there's opportunity to do something here. And then you kind of also have this sort of like enter exit with your coffee foot down more situation too. It would draw people in sitting outside the coffee shop. It's then and it was so it would be so clear where to go in now. We become your marketing team. So I'm not sure you No, it would funnel in traffic from the train

which is what they're going to get. Yeah. I mean they're this they you know for a minute deferring to them in terms of like thinking through all this. this is their hope and goal to achieve their like sort of traffic flow goals. Well, I don't I think that we're we're working with them. We're just trying to make some modifications. You could tell pitch them that the local to loathe touristies and the tourists are flowing up here. The locals are feeling really smart around here. Yeah. And then this is like you get a lot of people coming up from the train and anybody who lives here knows.

Yeah. The the local piece like part of what their plan here and the way this is designed is to be able to essentially you call in your order and you are handed your coffee here. And so that is actually their plan but through like this being a service area where the staff are both servicing people inside and then handing out pieces. So that's why for the window too. Yeah. Well, that's nice. That's really nice. Um, are you sure that they actually get a lot of foot traffic coming from the um from the train?

They're from their um like they've said it's principally locals. So Todd, not that I'm like contradicting your Yeah. No, that's fine. Their customer right has extremely loyal locals. The reason I definitely think being like right at the bottom of the hill by the train station where hundreds of people are getting off you are going to be get o being getting overwhelmed with that traffic.

Yeah. But the thing is is that pe well all right my experience is that most people who come up all right never mind I I I just sort of thought it through and I was wrong. So in terms um does it is it viable if I came back with essentially like two attempts sure after sort of like got a and b kind of versioning.

Um and in in some degree I'm going to like go check with them and like be differential to some of their needs for sort of the programmatic use of it without trying to I'm not trying to like box in at all. Right. And and you know that that sort of goes back to the whole point of the uh of the uh workshop is the fact that you got this feedback now as opposed to trying to uh convince us of something that you know we would not prove. So um you know feel feel free I I think our next meeting is on the 20th which is a week from today.

Yep. So if you if you want to be on the agenda, uh we can have essentially another workshop and we can go over you know you can sort of report back on on what you have found and the response that you got from pendants and so on. And is it possible to if I have like two versions that are like viable, you know, after conversation with them and stuff like have that not be a workshop but actually be the or how you know

probably not the public hearing. I think it could then well it could then come up to just a normal meeting, right? Look at those but are probably preferable at the workshop. Well, more expeditious ultimately if we can just talk it through or no? Um, or I guess let me ask we're being presented with two options, so it's hard to vote on that at a meeting.

I would I think I would have a strong like, hey, this is what I'd like to do, but and here's where I've tried to like explore option B in case that doesn't work. The part of the issue is, you know, they're closed and this wasn't, you know, your cascading set of effects, but, you know, some of the things that slowed us down. You know, we we got a stop work order that was that was delivered for replacing all the sighting on the building because the temporary code enforcement officer looked at historic, you know, photos and saw the Tyvec and saw that it looked fresh and clean and assumed we'd resided the building, which we did not do. And we had filed a building permit for doing what we did do. But then because he left, like we lost four months of time.

What the mayor saying? Walk by that building every day. We're good. No, I mean she you know it was we got wrapped into sort of a loop of like who can lift a stop work order now that he's not doing I mean it was like because he's so we we really sort of like lost all this time and what has happened is then like this was all intended to be done so that Angie's could move in before they closed right and through sort of for this like accidental reason because we actually just did take care of the building we lost all that time and then we've been in the winter and so a lot of things have had to move more slowly and so Angie's is fully closed and so they're really it's hurting right they're been sorted out or is that still ongoing as well?

I think the parking spot thing is like fully that that's all sorted out which is excellent. Yeah, thank you. It's it didn't turn out uh more expensive five times more expensive um but say love uh so I'm not complaining per se. Um, but so I'm trying to move this as expeditiously as I can so so that their staff can return to work and so they can return to operation. And so that's part of my reason for nudging towards both. I did this when you showed us the outlets under the bottom of windows.

Yeah. in parallel that well is it possible if she comes to the our monthly meeting of the workshop can we schedule a special meeting as a vote we we can and and I guess the question is um do we think a a public hearing is required Because unless the porch goes so unless the porch unless the porch goes away then maybe maybe not.

Well, let's say it goes with what they're we're talking about. It's just you know the porch is only here. Well, I'd have to look at a precedent. Huh? If it's an addition, yes. If it's completely reconfiguring the front facade, I'd say yes. But maybe that's a small. Yeah. But if it's a small enough intervention where you just have a small platform here with bears and a new viewer, I wouldn't I don't know that that would need a public hearing. But the full porch I think would

just this would Yes. Yes. Absolutely. But we're also telling you we wouldn't approve it. So, but if we get to a point in a workshop where we're like we would approve that, I don't know that we would need a public hearing. Yeah. What do you think? Public hearing. Well, I I certainly recognize the the business needs of Angie's and the fact that they're now don't have a library at Facebook business and a commercial kitchen. They don't. So to expedite it, I I agree that if we can look at this at a public hearing and have a vote or no public workshop, have a workshop.

Yeah. Okay. and public hearing. Yeah, I think that's but I think what we're asking for is to have this this eliminated this reduced the door the the original opening preserved and respected whether or not you fix the doors or replicate doors or however you do that at an ADA entrance on that side then I think that we could we could approve this very expeditiously. Right. And a a couple minor details kind of things. The fill on front. So in in that direction

is that fill in front and on the So right now the um west side of the building down the driveway side and then the back side like so it's all cinder block everywhere including here in the the the full front of the building. Yeah. While I'm doing this, should I be bringing that to the new standard that is is that brick with I I I think that's got to be brick. I don't I do not think stone is appropriate. I don't think a stone is appropriate for this, but would it even need a or with um is it deck with the sort of lattice uh build? Well, which doesn't apply to this the center block, right?

Yeah. I I mean you know the the porch portion of it uh it it could be lattice but um the existing foundation which is uh cinder block actually probably see it in that cinder block probably um you know stucco I think would be fine art you know and and it's something which can be done afterwards uh and then is that the same for this as Well,

well, you know, there are a lot of landings uh along the fronts of of buildings on uh on Main Street which have lattice.

You know, the decks are wood and so the the enclosure of uh what's underneath is is uh lattice. I while I I recognize that that is a factual statement, I think that enclosing that with lattice would be a a a very inelegant way of completing a large scale renovation and restoration of this building. I do not think that that it that would look nice. I I I recognize that it is out there, but I think that solid masonry, uh, a brick veneer, even if you're not trying to to to build that layer out with a full thickness of a brick, you can do brick veneers. I think that brick foundation would look the nicest by far. That's my two cents on that.

I would say that, too. If you're going to be doing some sort of foundation or fill, um, it I could also see a version where there's just no fill at all. Well, there and it's a more contemporary approach, but the building right across Londish there Mhm. has a wooden porch has lattice. So residential though it's nice. So residential. Okay. But I mean we're talking about, you know, uh the the visual that we're we're dealing with. It's also a maintenance thing, too. I mean, Hudson House has lots us, too.

I I disagree with you because I think that uh we're dropping in brick in a location where there really isn't any brick. Well, it would have been though, right? He we established that on the other side of the building where there is some foundation that's not cinder block. It is brick. I I know, but that's going to be covered by the the granite walkway. Mhm. Right. But we're just established that that is the original material of the foundation. So

the foundation exists and is visible where it is CMU thunder. Um do you think there needs to be a brick veneer continuous so that it's not sort of unfinish because the CMU right now needs to be repointed or falling apart in some places like one or two holes that you know someone backed something into it that have to be repaired. Other than that, it's painted and sealed and actually in good shape. Um, so there's like one or two holes. They're great. It's like a greenish gray. All right. So, have we given you enough feedback?

Well, I don't want you want to know what to do at the bottom. Yeah. Like I'm open to many different versions. I just I I want to come back with the right version if that makes sense. I feel like all of us have such such differing opinions on the material application of the porch itself that maybe

that's an opportunity for Hudson design and you to sort of contextually look at this building and make a proposal. I mean the we've done the whole like street walk thing that led us towards um you know that did lead us towards stone based on some of the things that are out there but there are some that are brick with um flab and there are some that are I I don't know I guess it's maybe it's stucco sort of like a a cemented um you know just flat no detail kind of a treatment um so I think all versions exist on Main Street. Um, you know, so I'm I'm pretty open to all versions here as well. I I I think what I've gathered is maybe not the lattice work like not deck plus lattice work is the least preferred option.

I'm not Yeah, I don't Well, I appreciate building. Yeah, I I disagree with that. I think that the lattice would probably be the most appropriate. You're talking about a wood frame and wood uh clabbered uh structure. And right across the street, you have exactly the same. It's a wood uh clad uh wood frame uh porch and uh it's got a lattice enclosure underneath. So, as far as I'm concerned, I I I would uh disagree with any stone work because that sort of there's no reason for the stone to be there. Yeah.

I have this is one of those where I tomorrow I'll be on Main Street and I'll be looking at every single building to see like how this relates to that. I just need that. But I think we are all saying no stone veneer. No stone veneer. No stone veneer. were saying a brick veneer might be possible depending on what your final design is. Or maybe you're you prefer a lattice and maybe we could be convinced of that if we if we see the design. Yeah. And how the doors are treated and the railing and stuff.

And just just just a m just one more thing for the record. I'm looking at Google Maps right now. The building across the street, yes, is a clappered building with a brick foundation. And there is a deck in front that is enclosed with lattice, but the foundation is exposed brick. So, my feeling again is that the appropriate material for the exposed foundation is brick. Oh, wait. Todd, can I double click there? Are you saying that for parts of the foundation it should be brick but on the uh but on the porch piece it's lattice

I I think it could yeah I yeah I I would be more well I I'll tell you typically what we have found is that um when we have lattice usually we have brick peers is holding up the porch. Mhm. So, it could be a combination of brick peers with lattice infill.

Okay. not to extend this meeting or throw a wrench into this porch um that's specific for the stairs going to these double doors and not a larger porch, but if that is sort of the intervention and the entry sequence into this industrial space, is there an opportunity to have similar to the rod iron but like a very minimalist modern feel? Hoping for but I don't know what the price tag on that is if you're doing it well. That would be beautiful. But I don't know. Just to make sure I'm like following the conclusion of the thoughts. I may not be fully in like think as you two,

but but I'm not I don't think I'm hard. I think what you're saying is just a an installed metal both platform uh with that would have a metal railing, right, that matches that has metal peers going down to sort of foundational uh uh sono tube type, you know, sort of supports, right? Um with essentially a fully open underneath staircase kind of thing. Yep. Modern metal in that case. Again, I don't know how the others feel, but uh you know, it could be a cable rail because this is just saying you don't like that, but just other that the building itself and this is modern and it's entering into a modern space,

but yeah, the details of that would have to be really worked out well done and it could get really expensive. So, that is a that is like but that's like do you want to have fun designing and have all the money in the world? That seems like a great solution. But, I don't know. Maybe the other one is that the but but you have to remember we're saving them a lot of money by eliminating some people spending a little money a new door. I don't I mean I will just say I don't I think this is going to cost me with the tenant. I don't think this is saving me cost to to reduce the the deck design and like just I'm I'm not I'm not negotiating otherwise. I'm just giving you the the sort of like

will you share with them our concerns about the entry sequence and the primary versus secondary doors and how we're not sure pedestrians would understand understand we found it to be confusing with an entrance. Yeah. I think I think part of it you know they they didn't get me the fully designed um sign but like part of it is the sign sits here that will be you know again subject to HDRB sort of approval but that is the thing that I think part partially sort of helps them do it. I don't know Todd you spoke before about like signage is in like directional I don't I don't think at least

my discussions with them there's been no discussion of directional signage. I think some of it and it goes a little bit to some of the other conversation is you can see it more on the the vertical uh plan but essentially by having a you know a table and chairs here and table it sort of like tells people where to go. There's sort of like all these other cues that are set up that say this is this is where to come and go just to walk around a table even if it's only three feet wide with chairs and that's five feet you don't have the there's not room to get a stroller past that table. Yeah. So I think that this solution having the traffic go up and the gathering on a sort of more terrace

at grade level is more inviting and is more realistic with the flow inside. You walk up this way, go inside, take an order and come back out. Yeah, I I think that um u it needs to be uh self-evident so that you're not dealing with signage. I I think that's we have our own problems with signage for them and I don't know how well they planned but they likely have a furniture plan at this point and looking at furniture in the space if they understand how they

I think it they the design is here I think I gestured here but like meaning people will sort of read this as like oh this is where I'm going to come in not not trying to use this for tables As you start to explain adventures, I realized like I I didn't convey it properly. Todd, any last thoughts? Uh, no. I think we've covered it all. We've beaten them into submission, I think. So, in my Yeah, my my Yep. Yep. I think we're good, you guys. It's 10 o'clock there. So, I bid you good night.

Good night. Um, do you have any Do you have any other question? I think I will in this alternate pathway door remains a bilor. Um, it may be that it's like a flat platform that is like, and this is a little bit more reminiscent, it really is like those sidewalk build doors where like it's it's on it is the part of the surface of the platform.

Um, in the case of brick peers, wood framing, lattice fill, the railing is what from a preference? Well, I mean, if you have wood lattice infill, then I would think that the the railing would be wood. I I think that, you know, it should be consistent with um the stuff that you're dealing with. In other words, if you if you're looking to do a u a metal platform the way that uh Kate described it and very industrial looking then uh obviously the um you would have

then that rail if that the railing I think is metal. Yeah. Uh but more the if it's wood deck with wood lattice fill probably a wood rail probably wood railing. Okay. Um I think in this modified thing I you know not speaking for them but just having like spent a lot of time talking with them and sort of understanding their flow. I think that probably the next biggest thing that will be a challenge for them is only having one operable door here and Todd mentioned part of it is the light aspect of like letting light come into the space. It's it is a very big space. it is a bit dark and there isn't a lot of you know sort of windows the the um the south side has both tree cover and then not sort of windows that are like flowing through the space and so if the proposal is sort of deck here you know as we've just been stairs here deck through here um is it possible to have I mean is it do we leave these doors now I think

one door has they have windows the existing doors yeah the the sort of like upper are sort of like 2 by3's. Um, is it possible to have both to go back to sort of like this flow where the doors swing open? Well, if you're talking about light, I mean, look at the windows on the west facade. Mhm.

It's a lot of lot of glass there. So I I would think that it's not a question of how much light you get. It becomes a question of uh what is probably more intuitive as to how the doors work. In other words, if you Yeah. If you come up because obviously if everybody's coming up from the west side, then that first door is problematic because you have to open it up against against yourself, right? In other words, how how could you had somebody coming up the stairs arrive at that door and open it without having to step back?

Take a step around it. Yeah. Well, if this one was open though and then this was an interior door that opened in, then that eliminates that. It opens and then this door is just fixed. So yeah, this this door so it becomes only one glass door that swings in, right? And this one is an operable wood door.

And this is a fixed not nonoperable wood door with essentially I would fill I' for sort of like air sealing. I think I have to like seal the wall like it's I'm permanently sealing the door. essentially building a wall on the interior or just glass light. So it's the interior is a glass door and a glass light. So glass door swinging inside this way. An interior glass light door something to lock into and help um with HVAC. Yeah,

they be at the same plane. Yeah, that's sort of what I was like trying to think through. Thank you. Um, and then that I think architecturally would um again allow for like existing building and modern intervention that sort of double layering to help explain things. And then what is this door like that?

I mean there isn't one there now, but like nondescript and just blends into the facade. It could have it could be full glass or it could be upper class light. Not sure anything mundane utilitarian. Sorry, I was looking for the photo of the building. And then just while you're doing that and then this piece if it is sort of flat. I Yeah, at sort of at grade

by the time it gets here to the BCO doors, I think that probably does demand a railing. 30 in up to you don't need a rail. Oh, yeah. Maybe it is that high. If that seems tied and I know sometimes I think, oh, there's a kid that's gonna like that's awkward, but it might straight. I know a lot of that. I did a project in Oregon once where we could I think it's like the height has to be 2 foot six. That's 30,

right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then this platform here is possibly lower than But why would you have a platform there? We're seeing I think they furniture without it falling over. Yeah. Well, right. So they can have a table there without it falling over and a chair people. Yeah. So maybe we sort of cut in hereish. Yeah. Further sort of try to go so that it's like lower than this. It's sort of like you have these steps up. Yeah. And then there's this lower section here. that comes over to hereish.

But they have to follow this line though. Yeah. But then the Vilco door is it's at an angle, right? But they make um they make ones that are like uh flat like sort of sidewalk style. And maybe you base the height off of where the structure of the door already is. Yeah. Where the door needs to be. So you there's a little cut and fill happening. That seems really inviting actually rather than like a porch full of people. More great. Yeah. More like engaging. But again, we're not your marketing.

But we all live here. We all go to Angie. We want to still go to Yeah. pick

we all want for their success. Um I want to contribute towards it. Okay. Um I think I do have I I think I've got all my questions. I it possible is it is it allowable for me to like email if I find variations on things image you know sort of things so that I can just in the interest of time when I come before you have like gotten feedback on hey does this sort of work? I think I mean I think the the best way to do this and really the most expeditious way to do it is for you to come back at our monthly meeting as a workshop with all of your things. We tighten it up and then we can have you we can schedule a special special meeting for them. Yeah. Okay. Right. We can do that.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes, we can. We can do that. Thank you all. I I I really do appreciate especially both the time but the dedication that care and this is what I was talking to my team about before like I appreciate that you do this whether I'm in front of you or not. I appreciate that you do this. I do consider this an important thing and I am a believer in the the I love living here in part because you do what you do. Well, because it's a red have to understand and and my wife will attest to this that uh providing a bakery that close to my house is dangerous.

It's dangerous. It's not good for your health. Well, you got to catch your carbs. Okay. Do I have a motion to adjourn? Do I Who second it? I first. Okay. All safe to say I I Oh, I thought take care. Sorry, I wasn't good night everybody. Um, thank you everyone. I very much appreciate it. Happy New Year. Um and I will see you next week.