Planning and Zoning - Regular Meeting

Okay, it is noon, so we'll go ahead and get started. Welcome everybody. I'm Hillilary Patterson. I'm the community planning director with the city of Celane. And online we have Diana painter with painter preservation. She's our consultant. And we have Alexis Matronone and Jason Takonic Chox from State Historical Preservation Office. So the three of us will be presenting and so we'll have opportunity for comments as well and wanted to hear from those of you in the room and we also have members of our historic preservation commission here. If you guys can raise your hands and Steve here as well. We're missing a few. They may trickle in. But a little bit about our historic preservation commission. It was formed in 2019. And as we became a new commission, we also were able to become a certified local government. So that allows us to apply for and receive grant funds to do historic preservation efforts such as this with the historic survey. We did our historic preservation plan. We've done work in the Garden District neighborhood. And so we're very grateful to have that designation and the ability to receive the funds and very grateful to our partners at Shipo, which is the state historic preservation office for working with us and helping provide guidance and technical assistance in the funding. The commission works to preserve our rich history and the unique character of city of Celane by promoting, educating, and helping to protect our historic resources. So that's kind of the gist of that. And the effort today is uh we're going to go over the work that was done by Diana recontesscent survey is it's a survey of the built environment to assess the overall characteristics of the area and identify historic resources and to inform future discussions about possible future historic projects. Um it does not affect property rights. It does not designate historic property. So it's

just kind of a a little caveat there for this effort. The budget was $16,000. So 11,000 of that came from the certified local government grant funds and then $5,000 cash match from the city. So that uh is the overview of that. I'm going to hand it over to Shipo for them to provide some remarks and then Diana will give her. Thanks.

Hello everyone. Um as Hillary already said, my name is Alexis Matron. I am the CLG coordinator and preservation planner with Shipo. Um, I'll pass it off to Jason, let him introduce himself. But in um, 2024, Cordelane applied and was awarded for a grant um, to complete this survey. So, it's kind of a long process and we're just at the tail end of it. Um, but really the survey is just to um, and I don't want to repeat everything that Hillary just said, but to document and better understand the historic landscape of areas across Idaho. Um, in this case we're doing the commercial downtown core of Cordelane. So it is just an attempt to understand um to better understand the the changes over time and to document those. Um, and it in no way, you know, puts any designation over any of these properties or this area. It is it is 100% just documenting the past and the changes of the the architectural landscape in downtown Cordelane.

Yeah. And I'm Jason Typicconic Fox again. I'm the National Register coordinator at Shipo along with Alexis. I also review these surveys that are generated by our certified local government partners. I would just like to say this survey um Diana has done excellent work here and this is kind of our new model moving forward about how we organize this survey information. So we're really excited about this project and we know it's going to serve the city of Celane well as they seek to understand a part of the community that has been you know changing and you know understand the historic resources are there and and what the different options might be. Again, it doesn't commit um the city or the community to any particular course of action, but it's a great exercise in gathering information. Um and we're very pleased with the results. So, with that, I'll turn it back over to you.

Okay, Diana, are you ready to proceed your slides when you're ready? Okay, go ahead.

Sure. There we go. This is our survey area and uh later on in in the um process you'll see the the subset of the survey area which was a recommended district and that's just a recommendation. It will you know it's um if if the city moves forward it will be uh you know I'm sure have a robust public uh process associated with. So anyway, but you'll see that later. This is the survey area and as you can see um it focuses on the heart of downtown and then um takes a meander to some of the more outlying areas. So go ahead. You can advance it. Oh, thank you. Hey Hillary, could you um explain what this map is, please?

Sure. So this is a map showing the downtown. It's kind of a heat map. And so the darker colors represent taller buildings. And so this is really kind of the the core of the downtown area. So the darkest, as I mentioned, are the towers. And then everything that's lighter color would be the shorter buildings. Go to the next slide. And do you want to go ahead on this one too, Hillilary?

Yeah, I'm happy to do this one as well. So the red boundary is the survey area that Diana showed you on the slide uh two ahead of this one. The blue areas are two existing historic districts in the city. So the garden district is formerly historic district le listed in the national register of historic places and so is Fort Sherman. And so Fort Sherman is the Fort Grounds neighborhood as well as some of the properties on NIC's campus shown there in blue. So that this is important just to kind of see how those boundaries line up. Back to you Diana. Okay. Uh this just uh gets you a little bit oriented with a bird's eye kind of map. It's and there's fourth and Sherman which is really historically and today the heart of the commercial area downtown. So uh go ahead and this is the schedule that we've followed. Um we had our kickoff meeting a little more than a year ago and then the field survey started in October. Um the survey data was uh uploaded to Iris the state's database in January and a survey draft survey report was submitted in March and now we're at the final public meeting a little more than a year later. So it's been a it's been a long process actually. So go ahead and these are some of the documents that the city already has in place um that helped at least help me get oriented towards the all towards Cordelane in general and there's been some you know good work done in the past. They started with the Sherman Avenue corridor cord sorry corridor plan in ' 87. So that was it was quite some time ago and it's a it's a nice plan. You know it's it's uh uh oh what do you call it? It's

has a good shelf life. It has had a good shelf life. And then the city has a number of design guidelines um that have been developed over time for infill and downtown and commercial design guidelines and we'll make recommendations about that later. And then the historic preservation plan done in uh 2021. It's a really really good document. I encourage everyone to to read it. It's maybe not everyone is such so geeky as I am about reading plans, but uh it's really good. Um and the goal number one is really the one that that speaks most directly to this process which is to um identify and document Cordelane's historic and cultural resources and on the uh it explains the importance of survey work. It's survey work is really the first step in any kind of historic preservation process. So go ahead and the uh this is a um well you can see it's strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats that the preservation plan pointed out. And really the heart of it uh in terms of what we've just been working on is the fact that there's a lot of development pressure downtown and that's one reason to get good documentation of your historic and other resources. So that was really helped um drive this particular process. So go ahead and these are some excerpts from the existing plans. Like I said, there's been a lot of work done and and some really good work done the corridor. Oh, there's a got a wrong date on this. Sorry. um points out some improvements that could be made and um to a commercial building, historic commercial building downtown and um also just some kind of vocabulary. Uh

like what they call a bulkhead here is you you see people use different words for some of these things and that is um sort of normal in the world of architectural history. Uh so anyway, so the Sherman Avenue corridor plan provided some guidance. And the other thing that um existing plans have or have um pointed out is the work that the commission has been doing or maybe a committee of the uh commission and informing themselves as to what other communities have been doing to develop downtown design guidelines and standards. Uh this particular page from Calispell features um

I think is it showing Calispell yet because on our end it's showing our current downtown design guidelines that show Calisville on your screen. Oh, it did it did the um did it not advance um on our what we can see is still the downtown design guidelines for Celane. Is that not what's showing on your screen? We are also seeing the downtown design guidelines. Okay. The Callisbell one is coming up, Diana. This one is still quarter lanes. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Okay. I get what you're saying now. Okay. Okay. I just want to make sure. Yeah. Carry on. Well, this Okay.

This page shows uh points out some of the buildings you'll all be familiar with downtown that have some really nice features and this particular guideline has to do with protecting those outstanding features. So go ahead. Okay. Thank you. Ha.

Does this one show up on your end for the work that was done in the city? It was looking at kind of the central business district. So in 1979 of evaluating what buildings were in the downtown and it kind of took an inventory of like how tall they were and what businesses were in each of those locations. Next one, Diana. This one, you see this one with the photo from 90 1979. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great.

Um, so this is uh showing the city in 1979, which is uh close to the date in the previous map that was done in the last in the survey from that era. And the circles point out the existing buildings that are listed in the National Register, which are the old city hall, the Federal Building, and Zanic Temple.

Thank you. Yes. So, that's what that's what we're looking at here. And this is the survey from 1988. It was really well done, a lot of documentation. And what it was val the reason it was particularly valuable for this um this process is it shows it shows really how much has been done in the downtown to to uh reinstate some of the historic features of the existing building. So this is the same building currently and in 1988 and you can see some funky something or another that they did to that took it took it down and uh it u much better display of its historic features. The building on the right's been redone but the building on the left you can see the upper level there has got the the arched windows that are historically that are historical. So, and then on the left, I'm sorry this is so light, but it just copies that way. Um, this is a shows the documentation that was done the narrative documentation in uh in that survey. So, uh go ahead. And this shows our current survey forms which is uh are downloaded in from the the state's uh database called Icris and it's a reconnaissance uh survey form although it does have a little bit of historical background on it. The first part you can see that it's kind of fat paragraph is a a brief description of the building and then the bullets are what they call character defining features and those are not just positive features but sometimes negative features depends on the building. It's just uh so it's not always what we hope

to preserve on the building. It's just kind of what stands out about it. And um and I I'm not going to read this, but I the the verbiage on the left there shows kind of an overview of of what these forms show and that's the art spirit gallery in the photograph. So go ahead. Did you want to mention anything on the the left side, Diana, about just kind of some of the other things that as part of when you're evaluating each unique building that you kind of have to go through that to look at like is it individually unique or eligible to be listed or is it contributing? I don't know if you wanted to go into any of that or if that'll come up later. Um, I haven't talked about the statement of significance later, so I'll I'll make a mention here, but a reconnaissance survey records the physical appearance of a building. And um, that's what's meant by the reconnaissance. This one has a little bit of brief history. Some cities and states do that and some don't. uh but but technically speaking the most important thing about this um kind of a survey is is defining the the features in recording the appearance um oh I guess I do mention briefly but that this survey form which you'll see that the other pages next in the next slide um identifies the significance and analyze the integrity um the integrity is a function of let me see if I'll I'll get it right. It's um the location, setting, um design, workmanship, materials, feeling and association. And so in order to retain integrity um a building has to retain most of

those aspects, not necessarily all of them. So four or more out of seven. So that that analysis is also in the forms and that paragraph on the left there. And that's just a better picture of the art spirit gallery. Sorry about the big car in front of it. And then the the content uh from the survey is input as uh data fields in the survey form. So could you go back one? I'll see if I forgot anything.

Yeah, no problem. Well, so we we talk about the construction history sometimes uh referring back to uh historical maps or sometimes you can spot changes just from experience in working with buildings um in general and uh identify the material styles, architects and our builders if if we know that and that is input into the form. And then um at least two photos and sometimes a historic photo has been put into the database so the general public has access to that database. Right? That's public information. Hillary, do you?

Yes. As soon as soon as the survey is complete and we complete it on our side, um the public will have complete access to all of this data um and data across Idaho. Iris is access um anybody from the public could access data throughout all of ICRIS. Okay, very good. Okay, so are there any questions about the how this form is used?

Oops. Nope, doesn't look like it. I'll go to the next slide for you, Diana. Um so this gives you an idea of what we will be going over um briefly in the survey report. This historic overview is um the the eras of growth are borrowed from the historic context that was part of the preservation plan. And then what I added here were the number of resources in every category that were found in the survey area. And so you can see um there's only three really early resources in Celane. And the greatest number is the period from 1901 to 1928 which was uh labeled city growth in progress with 48 resources um in the preservation plan and as part of this study. And then you can see um kind of tapered down so to speak um during the depression and World War II number of resources declined which is not uncommon especially during the depression and then the post-war boom and city expansion with 21 resources. Uh it depends on the place how much um post-war boom influenced uh the downtown core a downtown core because often times this is a period where expansion takes place kind of outside the historic core and that is what happened in Celane for the most part and then 1980 to the present we do not are not addressing I mean we survey the resources But we're not um addressing that particular period in terms of preservation

because it's a it's a modern time frame. And usually we incorporate into a historic district buildings that are uh 50 years or older as a as a norm. And this this particular study was done in 2021. So that's why it it ends in 2021, so to speak. So go ahead and this just shows the the breadth of resources that were considered when we did the survey. They start with the 1890 with the Presbyterian Church in its first phase. So that's the oldest resource. And then the newest resource or a new resource that is also 50 years old is the what's it? Idaho State Bank. Is that the name of that bank? Anyway, you can see it here on the slide. So, go ahead. And uh I just put in one sample historic map here. Um and this is to illustrate this one illustrates a 1921 map which corresponds to the census. As you can see uh from the census numbers here 1900 through 1950 Cain really made a big leap between 1900 and 1910 which is also the case for Spokane which is where I live. Uh that it was a really heavy period of growth and then it declined slightly between 1910 and 1920. And uh I I have to say I don't know enough about the specific history of Cordelane to know why that little bump or decline happened, but then it bumped right up again in 1930 and continues to grow as you know. But this um map shows 1921 and and what you can see here that

you don't have a before and after. Uh but what it illustrates is for example the middle block uh on the top with the little houses. It shows that this area the commercial area was commercial buildings occupied the core but surrounding that core was a pretty healthy neighborhood of residences single family residences. The upper left there is the Presbyterian church and then uh four blocks or block faces along Sherman in this particular year show that the transition had been made from mostly frame buildings, wood frame buildings to the brick that you see there now. So that uh had made a pretty uh complete transformation into brick a brick downtown into a compact downtown. So, um, go ahead. And there's a this this section is a little bit on, um, what kind of buildings were found in the survey area. And all of these, and these are not in Celane, these particular two, but they were good illustrations of traditional storefronts. Um, the common um, yeah, pre-1950 mostly. There's there's Cordelane. Um but could you go back for a sec? I just want to point out one thing.

Yeah.

Um so these these are um from another place, but they're typical. So, the one on the left is a traditional pre-1950 and pre-1900 even storefront where you have um a recessed opening and display windows across the front and the door is glazed and you've got the transom windows trying to throw some light into the back of the shop. And um there's that bulkhead feature which is also called a kick plate. Um so this is a very typical storefront. And I think you'll recognize this form all over the downtown core there. And the one on the right is just another version of a older looking storefront, although I have a feeling it's the one that's been redone, although it might have cast iron cast iron posts there, columns. Uh anyway, so this is uh a couple variations on what you can find in a traditional storefront. And so next slide. And this is how it looks in Celane. It's the Sherman, of course. Um, and these are all what they call party wall structures. So, the the buildings typically fill the the footprint of the lot or at least the front and sides of the lot. And um the um and they're they're separate buildings, but they're directly adjacent to each other. So this is your basic pre950 look in a downtown and Cordelanes is pretty intact. These are called uh the one-story buildings are called one um oh I hate that when your mind just goes blank. It's a um one part commercial block which means that it's one story and the retail storefront occupies the majority

of that frontage there. And you can see that the two-story building kind of at the end of this block that's called a two-part commercial block. And those are types. They're not they don't reference any particular architectural style, but it's a way that architectural historians have to talk about commercial buildings from this era. So, go ahead. And this is a modern commercial building. It's I think it's 1969. It's the credit union. And those are often times um can be surrounded by parking. But the more um character defining feature here is that they're freestanding. They're not uh abudded with one another. So that is just one characteristic of a build, a modern commercial building. So go ahead. And this is another type yet again. It's um and these are autooriented buildings that are defined uh often times by the ample parking and and a drive-thru um or you just basic oriented auto access buildings. And these all of these buildings um in downtown Celane have the ability or the potential to be historic. And I'm just showing the different forms that can be found in Celane and a lot of historic downtowns for that matter. So those are the kind of big picture differences between um different eras that you can see in our survey area in Celane. And can you look at that park that gas? It's $2.26 a gallon. I think that's what it says. I couldn't

believe it when I saw that. So, uh, go ahead. And this is, uh, just a brief little section on some trends I'm sure you'll be familiar with. But here on the left is a historic house. Um, it shows one of the few, less than a handful of houses that are left in the downtown survey area today. Um so this is this built particular house has good integrity and uh nicely designed and uh so it's considered um historic as well. And then uh the another trend uh that took place a little bit on the north end towards the north. Uh is that right? Is this north of the lake? Yeah. So, this is the craft brewery or crafted brewery. And there was a trend along with uh residential neighborhoods in this air area earlier on. There were also more um I call them light industrial. I don't know what other people would say, but like gas stations like this one was a gas station. The part of the building on the right, gas stations and garages and warehouses, storage buildings, that kind of thing. and they've been a lot have been um redone, rehabbed um in modern times to be more pedestrian friendly and and accommodate retail uses and service uses and that is the case with uh the brewery here.

So go ahead. And another recent trend that you all know about is the trend towards building towers in the downtown. And I I see we really I was looking at the um some of the work that's been done. Yeah. From these um this working group. They've really done a lot of work to to study this and evaluate for you know what the future's going to hold. But one of these efforts here, this is the working group update 25 was to incorporate historic preservation perspective in the downtown. And that's what you're doing now. And uh these are goals from the plan. Well, it's not a plan, but it's an update, but um some of the activities that the group has undertaken. So, go ahead. Here's cattle spell. I don't know what I was thinking. Um so, this is another thing that the group has done is is taken design guidelines or historic district or historic design guidelines from all over and and studied and analyzed them. So, this is a really valuable effort that they put together in this update. So go ahead and um so this is an outcome of the survey. We took the survey area and which is the green diagram down there and um then took the survey information and um mapped it and my my scanner does not like pastel colors. So that's why this just looks like a bunch of little dots without a background. But um but you can still tell what's going on here. The green is is historic and the red is not historic. So you can see like on Sherman Avenue here um uh between fifth and sixth I think how there's a um a cluster of green or

contributing buildings and um in other you can see other blocks where there's a lot of historic integrity in some of these little clusters. So go ahead and uh this is um a recommendation for a historic building uh district that came out of the process and like I said this is just a recommendation you will be if you if the city goes forward with this I'm sure they'll be doing a lot of outreach and a lot of further study of this uh proposal but this is the the concept that came out of the survey Okay. So, and you can see now you can see the blocks where the like the cluster between I think fifth and sixth there several bunch of green or contributing buildings. And and you can also follow kind of the older more um intact areas in Celane because they are um flank Sherman Avenue and that's you can see that pretty readily on this diagram. So, we'll go ahead. So, these are some ideas that came out of the survey and you guys will be um and I I'll have Hillary uh chime in here in a minute. Um what your next steps will be. Uh one thing you can do is you can go forward with uh looking at more carefully at a historic district. And you want a historic district with boundaries that meet the MPS standards. And there's there's a lot of background on there why that's a pretty good idea. And then also what your community wants and that's huge. That's you know that's a comes out of every process like this is um a lot of community outreach and community public um public outreach. And then uh

if you go forward with that, another thing you can do is um make sure that the design guidelines address the Secretary of Interior standards, which is the federal government's um the standards that they put out. And there's there's several types. Um that helps guide historic development. And um most of many many cities take the secretary of interior standards and tailor them to their particular city through their design guidelines and that's the way that they implement those standards and the historic preservation act was passed in 1966. So there's some history of that uh those standards being refined and implemented over a pretty robust period of time. So that's that's another reason they're kind of tried and true the the the standards and usually cities implement the standards for rehabilitation which is one of the standards but it's the most liberal and then they can the city can also make sure that the infill standards address the standards address the uh historic district and standards number nine and 10 there are 10 standards uh in in particular address new construction. So, those are just some recommendations. They're pretty standard recommendations um that that came out of the survey process and I will turn it over to Hillary and she can give some additional insight on next steps for the city.

Thanks Diana, that was great. Um and we'll allow for questions in just a minute. But yes, this is really helpful for the city and for our historic preservation commission just to kind of inform on like what are the existing resources and then this will help with our effort that as was mentioned we have a a working group. So the city staff is working with an ad hoc committee and looking at the downtown core for development regulations and design guidelines. And so this is also helpful for kind of looking at what exists currently. And then as you mentioned looking at secretary of interior standards I think Callisville has followed that Boise has that in some other historic districts. So you know what does that look like with our design guidelines for new construction but at this point it's really just this isformational for us. We don't have any plans to do a historic district that could come up as a recommendation of the commission. This is just kind of the first step in this process. um that we have talked about. If we did a historic district, maybe it'd be local and then you kind of create your own format and you don't have to go through the long process of going through the National Register of Historic Places. But it does sound like there are some benefits if we did it through the National Register of Historic Places related to historic tax credit. So that's something that um Shifo may want to weigh in on. And I think with that, I'll see if Alexis or Jason wants to add anything that would be helpful for the commission or the community to hear about just kind of this reconnaissance survey in general and what you would see as next steps or your recommendations.

Yeah. Do you mind um going back just one slide if possible? Sure.

So um yes, thank you. So, one of the the while the point of every common survey is to document that entire survey area, one of the things that Diana explained comes out of this is a recommended or proposed district boundary. So, Diana documented all of the properties within the larger area and then made this recommendation looking at the changes and she mentioned the terms contributing and not contributing. So, we just kind of wanted to make sure that everybody understood um what those terms actually mean in all of this. So the green dots are what would be considered contributing to that potential district. Um these evaluations are done by looking at the Secretary of the Interior standards that are set by the National Park Service and it's just looking at those changes made over time, the materials. There's a lot of of um you know characteristics that go into these determinations and they could be kind of fluid and you know we went back and forth on some of them. Some of them are very obvious, some of them are a bit more difficult to really get into their um we have to get into the nitty-gritty of the changes to to make those determinations. And then the red dots are what would not be contributing to that district. Um, and that just means sometimes they're out of out of period. Um, they might be from the 80s, '9s, even even sooner or even more recent. Um, they could have just undergone too many changes where they no longer have that same integrity or follow those same historic characteristics. Um, where they're just they're not contributing. Um, that being said, you know, they can one day become contributing again. And that's why in this documentation um in Iris you could see the changes that we describe over time and if we can

we always say you know if this change is made it would then be contributing. We tried to be as detailed as possible. Um but that information can come with ongoing research into all this. Um so we just wanted everyone to better understand what that contributing and not contributing status really means in all of this. Um, and then I guess if we talk about next steps, usually what we recommend, and this is all up to the city, the commission, and the public of Celane, um, is moving towards a national register listed district. Um, a national register listed district puts no um,

restrictions, no protections on any of these properties. It is simply an honorific designation. Um it says great job, you have a historic property and it really usually what we see is it boosts that community support for that historic area. Um but it does open up all of these commercial businesses that are still contributing all of those green dots to possibly being able to utilize the historic tax credits. Um, I'll let Jason, he's far more knowledgeable about the tax credits, but um, that's another big benefit of a national listed um, district. And then, as Hillary said, there is a local district aspect to it, which is a whole other conversation, and the city would decide if they would want to do that. But that's where those design guidelines come back in that Diana spoke about, um, where there are, you know, different requirements set on that district. So, I'll let Jason take over and talk about the tax cut.

Oh, can I just say one thing before we go to Jason?

Yeah. I just wanted to say that um to be contributing or historic as the lay person might say. um you don't always the building doesn't always have to reflect the fact that it was built in 1900 say um it doesn't have to go back that far but changes are uh need to be over 50 years old to be um for the building to be considered contributing. So it's it's not a hard and fast it doesn't have to look totally original. You could have a storefront that we've redone in the 1950s and it's a great example of a 1950s storefront and it's intact for the period it was redeveloped in. And uh that can also be contributing. So you're not it it it's the rules aren't quite as hard and fast as this might imply. So go ahead Jason.

Yeah I think that's a great question. Jason, do we can we have a question from Yeah. attendees before? Okay. Yeah. Go ahead, John. So, I have I have two of the buildings or three of them actually. One of them is contributing and two say it's not contributing. Can I see those reports to say it's not contributing? Because I I think I'd argue that they're very much contributing to the historic nature of downtown. Yeah, absolutely. Um, if you want to somehow whisper those addresses to Hillary real quick and she could put them in the chat. Um, we could pull those up on Iris and look at them. Oh god. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Or you just you just got me right there. We could follow up. The one on the left of the depot on Avenue. Okay, hold on. We can let it go fast. Isn't it? And my my question is is that I think they do contribute to the historic nature of downtown and you would hate to put them in a yes or no category for what we're talking about for a historic district. Yes.

That's kind of more my my thing is if if we're angling towards if somebody's actually angling towards the historic nature of something, putting them in a no category when they're obviously trying to do that. I I just think it's a you don't want to paint a picture that somebody's going to refer to later as as no when maybe it's yes.

No, absolutely. And you know, let's preface this by saying there are many many properties that Jason and I and the rest of the Shipo staff, you know, we sit down as a as a team to review these look at and would love to say, you know, this is contributing to a district. Unfortunately, we have to follow those National Park Service guidelines on making these designations. So all of that is to say that even though it didn't quite hit those very and the park service can be very strict on these things, even if it isn't following those, you know, we can't fit it into contributing because of the park service standards, it doesn't take away from the the historic significance of Cordelane and and that importance. There might just be some changes, some materials, whatever it may be. I don't know what properties we're talking about that just didn't check certain boxes. So, we weren't able to say yes or no. And I know that the yes or no boxes and putting it on a list um can seem like we're taking away from from the overall historic significance. And that's not what we're trying to do in any way. This is simply we just have to follow those park service standards and guidelines. and it and sometimes it it it just doesn't fit with something that has happened over time. I will also say that we tried very hard to always go into these determinations by saying yes and working our way backwards. We don't ever want to say no. Um but I once Hillary um is able to send us these addresses and we could do this offline. um we could pull up those determinations and then send them back to Hillary and she could give you that update. Um and feel free to share our contact information and we

don't mind you know having a phone call or looking into this more um you know to to maybe we can look at it again and and just double check, you know. Yeah. I know. I I just think too as a city we have to be careful not to label something right here, right now yes or no because we know we're going to live with it when maybe it's somewhere in between. But you know how things are these days. Somebody's going to label it and then you're going to be stuck there. And if we're talking about height restrictions or we're talking about buildings or what's historic, what's not, like we're going to we're going to live with that.

That's kind of more my thing. Like I because some of these standards because a couple of those you have is yes on there I would argue are probably no if you really look at the work that's been done to them. I'm not going to say which ones but um anyway I just think we just need to be careful on yes or no if the city's going to live with this information from here on out. Well, I would like to add something here. Um, is and is that when we did the historic when when you do the survey, it's a pretty brief look at the building and the historic profile that it's in the survey forms. It's also a pretty brief look at the building. And if you have information on your building and what's happened to it over time, that definitely should talk to the city and and and maybe the shipo about it because these are they're not in-depth surveys. They're reconnaissance surveys. And a really good example again is the art spirit gallery because it looked abysmal a number of years ago. It was really funky if you look at the 1988 survey, but somebody restored it. And I don't know whose building it is, but um you know, you if you look at that, if you just look at it in a photograph, it's like, wow, that's a great historic building, but it actually has very little historic fabric, what they call historic fabric. The materials have been changed out, but they've been changed out in a really uh appropriate way uh appropriate for the look of downtown. So, I'd encourage anybody to talk to the city and and maybe the shipo as well because you you may know things that we don't

about your building. Don, I'm aware. This is Walter Burst. Um, obviously we're aware of what buildings you're talking about and I think we can work with you to try to figure that out and I understand exactly where you're coming from. Sure. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Are there other questions before Jason talks about the tax credits and that aspect? No. Okay, Jason, go ahead.

Well, sure. And I I would just kind of second what Diana said and in her last response. And another thing is, you know, if a particular property owner is wanting to know how their property could become contributing, we can always look at that building and and look at work that could be done to to enhance its historic character. And these determinations are not static. You know, this is a living sort of process and things change and in addition to additional information, you know, work could happen to to enhance some of those things. So I I would just emphasize that and I would also emphasize that I think I can speak for Diana here and certainly at Shipo that our process um we try to be as fair and consistent as possible in evaluating every single resource in the downtown the same standard is applied um to everybody. Um but again we're always happy to revisit these determinations um should a need arise. Um on another point, I would also add in terms of thinking about potential next steps um for the community that you know this survey project has evaluated the buildings in sort of two different ways. The first is whether they are individually eligible for listing in the national register or whether they are contributing to a district um such as this downtown district or both. So when something is determined individually eligible and we do have a number of resources in downtown that were determined to have that status that simply means they have a higher level of architectural or historic significance that we knew about at least at the time of this survey. Again you know this is sort of just a very quick snapshot of downtown and additional information could mean that other properties fall into that individual listing category. Um, but it's just something to keep in mind because if perhaps there's not a desire immediately to move forward with a larger historic district, maybe you just focus on individually listing some properties and you can do that either at

the National Register level or the local level. So, there's just lots of options here. And that's really one of the things that we were just really pleased with um seeing um from the data that Diana has assembled is Quarter Lane really has almost all the options available in terms of which way you could proceed next. Um we could go with this kind of larger historic district. There could be a smaller historic district of of some size or again there could be some individual um buildings that are designated in some way. So, you just have a lot of options on your menu and that's a great place to be as a community. There's just a lot of ways to move forward at this time. Um, in terms of the tax credits, um, the National Register listing of downtown as a district would open up the property owners within that area that are, um, to a to a financial incentive that's run through the National Park Service to kind of offset some of the costs of of doing work on their buildings in a way that would um, enhance and preserve their historic character. Um, and when you designate a big downtown, it just sort of saves the property owners a step in in that process and kind of opens them up to that financial incentive. So, if you have property owners that are thinking about, you know, remodeling their storefront, there's a way you could use the tax credits to do that. You know, if you have a two-story building where maybe the first floor is a store and the second floor is is not being used at this time, that's a way to get some incentive to kind of bring that second floor back into use. um some sort of income producing purpose. Um so that's just another option on the menu but kind of one of the things to consider in terms of whether you go with a national register designation or not. So

questions from commission members or audience um Walter Burns again. I know you you have uh designated certain buildings that you um feel like are individually eligible in this report. Correct. Yes, Diana. Diana has there's I I don't know the number off the top of my head, but there were a number of individually eligible buildings um downtown that are not yet listed in the National Register. That includes one your main one, John. Yeah. No, I was just going to send you over there two addresses. Yeah, that'd be great. I saw the one was I think 215 East Lakeside, but I Yeah, the other one's 216 Celane.

Okay. It's sorry, is it not 215 East Lakeside? It is. It's 215 East Lakeside and 216 East Celane Avenue. They're both built in the 40s. Um

along with I think the one that's at the end of the street over there, John Butler's building that's got a green dot on it. So anyway, we don't need to talk about it here. It's not really worth talking about, but my thing again, I'm just going to go back to that. We're doing a lot of things with this working group downtown here. And I just don't want to see a report be able to be used against us with a bunch of red dots on something that are actually contributing to the historic nature of downtown. But the yes, no thing says that they're not. That's really it's kind of a more of a bigger picture thinking here. So I I think both of those buildings are I understand what you're saying. I think both of them we could maybe take another look at.

Yeah, that's cool. Other questions or comments

if you give me those addresses too. Oh yes, I can do a little forensic deep dive. Okay, we appreciate it. What we can find. Thank you. And yes, thank you to Mr. Shepherd here has done a lot of research and that's been helpful for Diana and Diana's done a ton of work on this. So, we're very appreciative of everything that's been put into this survey. It is a lot of work and there Yeah, there was one property I was asking shipp about like why isn't that one that one should be contributing like it's great like no we agree it's great it's you know it's fantastic for downtown and it's preserve the building and it's been adaptive reuse but it doesn't meet you know the six criteria whatever there was from the national park service so it is yeah

and another you know aspect of this is we have been mentioning that you know we could also look at a local historic district if we would look at that with a very U eye of you know not only what the building looks like and has is now but you know how it contributed to the history of Celane and its importance along the way. So there's there's a number of ways we can look at things. I think the other interesting thing though if we did pursue either the local or the national district kind of like garden district there are a number of properties in the garden district that also are non-contributing but once you're in the boundary you are a historic property and then you are eligible for the benefits of that.

Yeah I just want to second what Walter just said um that 100% you could go in two very different directions and those are going to look at two very different ways. the National Register District um you know is really just to open the area up to those other incentives like the tax credits. But on the local level, if you do a local um historic district of some kind, that is going to be viewed under a completely different lens, then it doesn't have to follow those national park criteria. Um, so I I think that's a good thing to to really drive home too that those are going to be two very different things and the planning on both beneficial, both hold great benefit just it's two very different things.

Is there something keeping us from doing both? I don't think so because Boise has their historic districts are both

a lot of national register. A lot of times the national register um district comes first and then the city will use those boundaries to just create that overlay uh district for the local side of things. Um it doesn't have to go that way. That's just the most common way that we see it. Um and then even if you have let's say we use this exact boundary for a national register district when you start to do the local district you don't even have to use those boundaries even if that's already established. That could look completely different as well. So there are many, many different options and like Jason said earlier, you guys are in a really great spot because you have so many options right now. So there's no one way to do any of these things.

And if we formed a local district first and then wanted to do a national registered district, that that wouldn't restrict us from doing that either. Is that correct?

No, absolutely not. On that end though, I will say that um I think of surveys like new cars that you drive off the lot. As soon as you drive away, that car is not worth as much as it previously was just because changes happen so quickly that right now we have the most updated information to move forward with a national register nomination. um you know if we do wait a year to two years that information will kind of you don't have to do the whole survey again but you will have to invest some time and and resources into updating the changes that happen within that area. So that's just another thing to note long-term planning wise.

Yeah. And I I you know the garden district was of course a much larger uh district when we did the national register. This is you know like a fifth of the size. So, it's just a kind of an easier project to contemplate as you're, you know, making decisions about which way you want to go. It's it's much simpler than than the garden district was. So, I would just add that. Great. Thank you. Other questions?

Are these uh national guidelines easily accessible to see, you know, if we make changes to our buildings, are we going to get another survey before it becomes, you know, a district? And then now we're outside of contributing because we made edits to our building. Are these guidelines easily accessible and easy to see when we go to make changes to our properties? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. What kind of guidance could we provide for property owners on like what are the kind of those criteria for kind of keeping a building so that it is contributing?

Yeah, so the park service does have guidelines that are accessible to everybody. I will say they're not the easiest things to read. Um, but we can also send examples of other um areas within Idaho that have local districts with those design guidelines already that kind of give, you know, even if it's not specific to your community, the type of building, that one commercial block in this time period with this material. um you know we could provide those too for now before the city gets to you know that stage of things that may help in those decisions. Um I also want to say that you know we always want to be accessible to the public. So, anytime you are, you know, planning on making changes, please feel free to give either me or Jason a call and we could go over those changes and just give recommendations or best practices um you know before because we do know the area, we do know what the hopefully the plans will be for the future or the different ideas. So, we're always here to help in that end and then we could provide some material um that should be helpful in the meantime. I um I I could add something here. It maybe wasn't 100% well, I'll just say the and you know, the National Register District is honorific. It doesn't require any design review. I mean, you have your design review guidelines already in place for certain things, but it doesn't require um any design review unless you go after a tax credit project and then then there are uh stricter guidelines. But a local district, I live in Spokane, so we have maybe four really big local districts and a whole bunch of national registered districts. And people like national registered districts because it it does make them um tax credits accessible for them for

contributing buildings. And um there are a lot of there are a lot of them. But the the the difference between that and the local district and they could be the same geographic area just depends on how you set it all up is that you have to go through design review. So if you formal design review process just like you'd go through any planning process. And so for a local district, that that's that's the main difference that you can see in the everyday management of the local versus national. I don't know if that was like super clear or not, but uh in Spokane, you can see an example of how they each work. And the local districts, the way they've set it up, their design guidelines, um at least some of them are like, you know, you have to meet like, you know, they're they're totally tailored to that particular area, geographic area. And the way they set it up, which has its pros and cons, um, is that you have to meet like four out of these six standards or something to go forward with what you want to do with your house or whatever. So, uh, I just wanted to make sure that that was clear.

Yeah. I I'd like to say that, you know, for any building owner who's going who's looking at this information, um, whatever however we decide to proceed, we're always available. the local um our local Portland Historic Preservation Commission are also always ready to sit down and talk to you and look at what you're talking about and help guide you through any of that and you know maybe simplify some of the standards that the national you know the national standards that can kind of be get a little obtuse sometimes. So you know we're here as a resource for you always.

I'm gonna add one thing to that. Um this is Shannon Sardell and um what I can recommend is that everybody does have access to the IICS IC um database and once these items are in the database um there will be some information about your property you can search it by address and that should have from the efforts from Diana and then the state historic preservation office kind of analyzing should have character defining features that are important And that that might be important for you to protect, preserve, um you know, kind of work with if you are doing some work on the building. And those things being the most important character defining features that you know when we evaluate those buildings now or in the future, if those are lost, then it loses its historic integrity. But if you're able to maintain or preserve those items, you will actually um you know, be able to, you know, be considered historic. if a survey was done in another 20 years for example. So that'd be a really quick and easy you know way that that's been set up through that Chris.

And last thing is to emphasize once again there are no restrictions on what if you even if you're in a historic district there are no restrictions as to what you can do with your building. Obviously we would as as a commission would love to steer you towards keeping more historic than less so. But that's it. You know there is no restriction there in terms of what you could do. We're just happy to work with anyone we help.

And then I guess it's it's important to point out so there's two different things. We already have design guidelines for downtown. So those are in place right now. So those would affect if someone is doing alterations to their building, but they're not historic specific. Um if this becomes a local or national registered district, then evaluated because something we're looking at currently, you know, how do we kind of build it all in so it makes sense? It's still reasonable light touch but really the goal preserving

in a way character. We have just are just now like you getting the information from this survey and we will be in our future meetings of future planning looking very closely at it deciding what different what directions we want to uh pursue and those will be public um you know anything we do in terms of a local or national historic register nomination will be public meetings publicly accessible to our you know our regular meetings are always publicly accessible too. So, you know, we will be determining where we're going from here. It's kind of be a process starting today. Questions?

Good job. Thank you for your hard work. Thank you. Thank you guys. We're delighted to have it. No questions online. Brett or Dan or Trevor? Council member Miller? No questions for me. Just excited to see all of the everything kind of done and the work that's being done by everyone. And it's just it's nice to see um us going in a good direction for historic preservation. So it was a great presentation. Good. Okay. If there's no more questions, we can adjourn. Thank you everybody.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you.