Charter Review Board - Regular Meeting

Alright. Well, we'll call to order the 03/06/2025 Turner Review Board meeting. We'll do a roll call. Board clerk, please call the roll.

Thank you. Chair Valdez.

Was his.

Board member Menzies. Here. Board member Razee. Here. City attorney Piper.

Here. And

deputy city attorney Mahaffy is not

present. And

I'm still here, so I'm confirm again.

Alright. So we don't have any guests today, but we do have minutes. But first, I will say we'd like to remind everyone to please silent your mobile devices. To help with sound quality, make sure to speak clearly so that the microphones can pick up your voice. This meeting is being conducted live with a quorum physically present.

The material for today's meeting is available online at www.coconutcreek.net. Anyone wishing to appeal any decision made will need a record of the proceedings and for such purpose may need to ensure that a verbatim recording of the proceedings is made, including the testimony and evidence on which the appeal is to be based. The audio of this meeting may be requested from the city clerk from your may be heard online at coconutcreek dot net. And we have some minutes for your approval.

No. Was two weeks ago. Correct? Correct.

February 11.

So David, further back than that. Yeah.

All in favor of approving the minutes? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Minutes are so pretty.

Thank you, sir. Alright.

And we'll move right into the charter section. My notes say we are starting in section eight zero one.

So I didn't know if you wanna proceed with just going through the charter and then come back to

The new edits.

The new edits. There really was only one David, section I'm sorry. Yes, but that's okay. There's only one section that we proposed in new language for you, and that was for section six zero four. And then there were other issues that you all had raised previously as being something that you were interested in. But I'm totally fine if you want to just pick up in the charter where we left off and maybe we can address the edits next time. I know we're limited on time.

Yeah. I don't mind looking at the edits

as we go. I don't Is there

a hard copy of

this? Just this.

Yes. It's right under you're holding it in the bottom there.

To

me, it looks like really it was only the draft change draft changes to six zero four

Correct.

That we would either try to make a from a heavy bordered box. And then this is just an updated kind of highlighting of where we're not changing things at this point.

Right. And then if you keep going, it goes into sections that we haven't really addressed. But my thought is maybe we just go over 06/2004 then go back to the charters starting with section eight zero one. And then we can, you know, come back to these other things later. So with section six zero four lapse of appropriations, there is some language that was added basically saying an appropriation for capital expenditure shall continue in force until the purpose for which it has been made, accomplished, abandoned.

The purpose of any such appropriation shall be deemed abandoned if so determined by the city commission through the annual budget process period and they and we struck through the five years past without disbursement from an encumbrance of the appropriation. Is everyone okay with that? Yes. Does that reflect, excuse me, your wishes?

I think it was, like, before last week, it was removing the encumbrance. Getting into this specific language, I think, was an evolution of the conversation that we had last week. So I'm I'm okay with that. I think it does a little bit more than what we originally thought, but leaves it in the city commission and the city staff's hands to kind of

Yeah. Their discretion. I agree. It provides the flexibility, I think, that's needed.

Yeah. Just the five years was, I guess, involved in

us. Right.

Yeah. It gives them more flexibility.

Is anyone not comfortable with the language?

I'm good. I I mentioned this. When I read it, I understand city commission and by extension, city commission, city staff. Was that an accurate read on it?

Yes. That's correct. Mean, ultimately, the city commission has to approve the budget every year, so that's the final step. So it's just saying it has to go all the way through that process and be approved by the city commission through the annual budget process.

Okay. Yeah. I agree with that.

I and forgive me. I can't recall if we, I think we voted on them last time. So, if you could just, is there a motion to approve the language as presented for 06/00 four?

Motion to approve.

Is there a second? Second. All those in favor?

Aye. Any opposed? No. Okay.

Thank you. So we'll move forward with that. We'll put it in a bold box and then we'll pick up with the other suggestions for the potential changes later. And now we're going to go back to our Charter Section eight zero one.

I

think that her comments were that she wanted to add under eight zero one limitations where it says and some of these limitations are inserted here because in order to make them consistent with state law. For example, you can't have a referendum that comes by basically just a resident, you know, filing an initiative to extend the budget or capital improvement program or anything relating to the appropriation of money, levy of taxes, or salary of city employees, a lot of that is or any emergency ordinance, a lot of that is set forth in state law because basically state law says that cities can only tax as allowed by state law. Otherwise, it's inconsistent and essentially imposing taxes is preempted by the state, those kinds of things. And so we couldn't have residents do what the city can't do. You know, those that kind of language is really there just to keep the guardrails up.

But what she was suggesting to add is the land development code and comprehensive plan as well. Because the comprehensive plan is to the land development code what the charter is to the code of ordinances. It's kind of like the backbone sort of the constitution of it. And then the land development code, again, sets forth the rules and regulations such as zoning and development regulations. And the concern is that if a petitioner petitions to change the land development code or the comp plan, But you can't really have them change the comprehensive plan because as I said that's kind of the constitution that it has a trickle effect that will trickle down and sort of has tentacles that could impact many other aspects other than just the one area that they're touching.

And the same thing could happen with the land development code where you could run the risk of impacting people's property rights. And so for that reason, it's a good idea to have that in here as well as kind of a prohibition on the public's ability to kind of initiate an ordinance through the referendum process. This isn't, you know, certainly the public can approach the city and ask for changes to the land development code or the comprehensive plan and applicants do that all the time through the regular process. But to do it through a referendum where the city's role in it is basically just making sure that they met the minimum requirements to submit it to the supervisor of elections. That's where the problem is that because the city doesn't have the authority to make changes necessarily to what they put forward, If they have enough votes to get it passed, it could have these far reaching impacts beyond just changing that particular code section, which again could negatively impact people's property rights or create situations where properties are developed inconsistent with the comprehensive plan.

And the point is this language probably should have been in there as a limitation all along.

Is it part of the process? So a group of residents comes forward and wants to initiate an ordinance is that the right language? Initiate? Is there a is there a shaping process to where, like, your office says, okay. We we can't make the speed limit on Lyons Road a 100 miles an hour. Or is it if they get the signatures and the right support for something?

You know what I'm saying?

So is there somewhere where where they can an initiate something initiated by residents can just get denied because it doesn't meet the requirements? It doesn't like like these types of things where there's all these tentacles and

So yes and no. There are the limitations that are specified here in eight zero one. Are limitations that are also referenced in state law. For example, somebody may not like short term rentals and for that matter the city may not like them either. But under state law, the regulation other than certain minor things like aesthetics and making sure that you have a point of contact, that kind of a thing, the regulation is preempted to the state.

So we couldn't allow somebody to pass something that just is not allowed under law. This is a little bit more complicated in that there's nothing specifically saying that a petition to change the code to impact the land development code is not allowed necessarily under state law, but it does have far reaching implications wherein you could result in a Burt Harris filings against the city, which is a takings claim because somebody had an investment backed expectation that now is changed by basically a petition that's filed in this way. You could also have situations where their land development code change that they're proposing could result in an inconsistency with the comprehensive plan which sets forth the long term goals and the land uses that are allowed for the city. And so the concern is just that it's way more complicated and could cause more problems even if it's

not

expressly prohibited under state law.

Got it. So just these couple of paragraphs and state law are the two

And I guess federal law. And for that matter, should go ahead and say there's a few things under Broward County's charter that are granted to Broward County. Like, for example, solid waste.

Got it.

So listen. I'm misinterpreted what you're saying. You're sort of suggesting you'd like to see added to limitations to the budget or capital improvement program, the land development code and kind of work comprehensive plan to add that or any ordinance relating to. Correct. I mean,

I guess that would protect the city from, like, someone who's putting up a 10 story building and, you know Yeah. Of a community.

Sure. Yeah. I just didn't know if there was another part of the process. Like, my neighbors and I all wanted to get an ordinance that made all the vacant land in the city agricultural land or something something like like that. That. That where where they would come here, craft the ordinance, and there's something inside the city that would if there was anything other than this, it's this.

It's this. This is this dock.

Just bugs me in the city, and if you guys ever go down is Wiles and, like, Benning Trail, like, right by Tradewinds Park. Before, it used to be, like, just forest land, like, you know, reserve. I mean, the that community build up, I got out of nowhere. And then Horse Community is kinda, like, disappearing, which is like one of the beautiful Yeah. Concept of our city.

Like, not a lot of city have an Austrian lifestyle or any kind of Austrian. The fact that we have that, I know like Tradewinds Park inside, they have, like, rehab centers for people that go ride the horses, and I think the city did a piece on it too. So it'll be a shame to see that whole community just get bought out. And recently, I think there was a fire there. Someone's gonna leave a school. Right?

So check the meeting minutes of the last two planning and zoning board meetings. This was discussed at length. Oh, yeah. There's a what's going on? An overlay district being put there to address a lot of these concerns. Oh, good. So,

you

know, not everybody's happy, but it addresses the concerns.

Yeah. That's great.

And that should probably be scheduled to come before the city commission at April 10 meeting for first reading

after the election. Yeah. The room was packed with speakers. It's the only time there's been a very large volume of speakers for planning and zoning board meetings. So it's definitely a heard and outspoken issue. So

Which way is it meeting?

The overlays is moving to commission vote. So you have to look into what the overlay is, but its intent is to preserve exactly what you said.

Good. Think that a gentleman who would

prevent further

development. Yeah. So it's it constrains density. So the minimum plot size is two acres. A few things to make sure you're not taking people if all of a sudden their lot is 1.99. Know it's just surveying incorrectly. Types of businesses was another topic. Yeah. Types of businesses and actual uses. So what defines a school, what defines places of assembly, that was one of the contentious definitions.

But it's defined in the ordinances, so it's just a matter of saying, like, hey, it's all out there. These are the things that are pretty reasonable. I don't know. I think it was just a make sure making sure it was all communicated correctly.

And the intent is to incentivize the preservation, the equestrian, like, nature nature of the area.

Then there's one little additional pocket of that type of property up on the very north end of the city. I don't think there's any other ones. There can be of Hillsborough On the left? There there some equestrian properties on both sides of Lyons Road, but

It's fine. Predominantly on Mill or whatever. Oak Mill Park

or something. There's just had some horses walk by my house this past weekend.

I mean, I have horses on my like, the there's empty land. I live in Coquina, so there's, like, the power lines, so we see horses coming through I and riding there all the

never know it's on the north because that was around five miles. There's actually a pub a public park. I don't know if it's still there, but for several years, it had a little place where you could tie your horse up. I don't

I don't know if those

wood beams are called, but Is this

north of this room?

Yeah. There's a lot of parks up there. It's really nice up there.

It's on 74th. Good call. So I go there a lot of time. I've gone there a few times recently because, again, planning and zoning have voted on expanding this park out. So I think that's probably already gone to commission, but that is around. So so after seeing it, was like, I'm gonna go check it out. You can still see these stables and horses around the park. So but it's being expanded.

Hillsboro Ranches, that area?

Somewhat. Yeah. It's just south of it's just South Of North Park.

I think you're talking about Oak Trails Park.

Oak Trails. Yeah.

And that was on a recent city commission agenda for the expansion.

Has that gone to second?

It was just a resolution for the site planche, so I believe

that costed the last meeting. It's triple in size of the park, basically.

I just signed off on a new branch. With some federal money. Yes. Yes. I remember. I signed off on that this morning. So

No. We do we do pretty well with the federal money. We do. So alright. So I think tweaking this just makes sense.

Okay. Yeah.

I know

if you think everybody's comfortable with that. Yeah. I'm not I'm not comfortable proposing what the language should say. I suspect it's fairly simple, but

Definitely should be a

command plan before building it. To

help him just propose that. It's serving those

And not to jump around, but this does this was exactly issue eight brought up by mayor Welsh. So Alright. Yeah. It's, like, a little farther ahead than we have gotten in in the issue list, but it it's exactly this section. Yeah. So just taking off. Okay.

Perfect. Thank you. So we can come back to you next time with some language for them.

We can pick a nice border to go around There you go. Section. Exactly. Alright.

And then there's eight zero two, commencement of proceedings. So this, again, is all having to do with the initiative process when a petitioner decides to basically petition to change the city's code. This is the threshold. So 50 qualified voters is not what is required in order to pass it. It's what is required in order to just start the process.

The idea is that they at least have the support of 49 other people, and I guess they can count themselves, but that they have the support of others to move I think it's been there since 2010 because I don't believe the changes in 2020 actually impacted that.

Because I wonder as we grow in the city, we'll have grown.

Should we have should scale

in just kind of proportionately? Mhmm.

So if someone is that serious, we should be able to get a 100 signatures.

And and our city clerk, Joe Kavanaugh, has just confirmed for me, thank you so much, that the 50 was not changed in 2020. So, yes, that dates back to 2010.

So what would that process look like

if somebody wants

to do something get 50 voters to commence an initiative or or to repeal something? And then where where does that go next?

So next then they essentially would

it doesn't have arrive like a Saturday morning. Right.

So they have to they get the 50 signatures, the 50 voters to support whatever the change idea is, and then they're going to move forward with basically drafting some language that they then have to get the signature of, is it 105%. 5%. Percent. I know we said state law requires 10% now. But then they have to get 5% of the total number of registered voters as of the preceding election.

So it doesn't say preceding municipal election. So in this case, it would be 5% of the registered voters as of the November election would have to be filed within ninety days after the affidavit where they show the 50 people support them. So they have ninety days then to get roughly, you know, let's say hypothetically that they had 50,000 voters. I'm sure that's not the case. These are people that actually well, it just says total number of registered voters, not the ones that actually voted.

So, yeah.

So 50,000, so 5% is going to be 2,500. So they would then have ninety days to get 2,500 signatures. And they can't just get their signature saying I support the idea. They have to show them the language that they would actually be And putting then from there, once it's certified, we would take the ordinance forward to the city commission for basically consideration. They can't really undo it, but we could change minor things.

Like, maybe it's better to put it in this section than that section, you know, that kind of thing. And then ultimately, it goes to the supervisor of elections who puts it on the ballot and it's voted on by the voters. I'm very summarily

That's why I asked.

Not exactly verbatim.

No. That's why I asked. I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I was reading through it and I just thought maybe there's just a summary of it. So that's kinda what I understood. So I don't know. So mayor mayor Wells should ask for it to go I don't I don't think it was, like, the strongest of request from her and take it that way, but from 5% to 10%. But I don't know. For me, it seems like to try to get 5,000 signatures on something, it might as well just not even exist the provision. Like, how the heck? If we I guess I don't know.

How many registered voters do we have yet? Is it No.

I think it's like 30

It's about 33 to 34,000,

I would say. About 15 to 1,800 signatures.

Right. Within ninety days.

If you had to take a guess, what do you think the turnout would be for the election next week? Just out of curiosity. Just guess.

No. No. No. Yeah.

I'm trying to compare it relative to the 5% or 10% number.

I mean, we're hopeful that we get we match at least what we did in '23, which is a 10.7% turnout. But, you know, hopefully, we'd like to get 12 as kind of, like, our informal unofficial metric.

So if we raised it to 10%, we would this whoever this person is that's trying to get some something accomplished in the city would almost have to single handedly match your election results without city budget and signage and all that. Right? Am I thinking about that kind of That's what I'm saying. Was just question.

Like, as far as, like, a community, what's our biggest community there in Coconut Creek?

Like, you know I think Wynmore.

It's definitely Wynmore. Right? How I mean Is

it, like, a couple thousand people? 9,000. 9,000? If you think about it from that angle not full time. That community takes up the issue. Yeah. They could easily get to that number.

But they're not registered voters, which 9,000 is really the number peak season. Oh. You're probably dealing with Seasons. 5,000. And still.

There are areas where Windmoor, I think, has the ability to wield a significant weight. Weight. Yeah. What about townships?

Township a bunch of sub communities.

It's kinda subdivided. Kind of the way Windmoor has the different, you know, buildings, but townships are like different communities sort of. And they're not really codified very well. There's a road drive. You know, there's they're kinda separated a bunch. So

Another large one would be Winston Park.

Park. Yeah. Similar to the township in that there's kind of a master association, a bunch communities within the community and definitely one more. So what we were talking about here was just kind of strictly that number, that percentage.

Right. The five or 10%. 10% is consistent with state law.

I can see that. Even living there I can see where one community shouldn't really be allowed if they really got into something. Yeah. I can see cruising, but don't tell anybody in stuff.

But if

you're the person who's not living in Windmoor and you wanna try to get some kind of change enacted in the city, how in the world do you get 10,000 signatures on something in the city?

Well, you wouldn't if we book you 30,000 registered owners, 3,000.

Right. Yeah. That's right. It wouldn't be 10,000. It would be 3,000.

I don't think we lower it by any means, my humble opinion. But to your point, that also makes sense. Like, if you're not big enough, you can't really do anything. But we're looking at it from a silo of, okay, this HOA is only this HOA, not the people of the city. So if somebody really is pushing for an issue that's betterment of the city, I would assume that regardless of this Windmoor, Western Park, wherever, it will be Sure. You know, some sort of

And it's still kinda coming before the whole city at some point to

vote Yeah.

After it's

so But, again, if it comes before the city in a March election, it's not coming before the whole city. It's becoming it's coming before 10 something percent of the people of the registered voters because they don't turn out.

Well, it's still coming before everybody has the everybody still has the opportunity to yeah. Everybody still has the opportunity to vote on it.

So the state has 10% or allows a max of 10%?

I forget the exact language. I believe that it is let me repeat this. I believe that it tracks the language that we have here.

So it's a higher higher minimum of 10%.

Right. It's just a higher minimum of 10%. Yeah. It would be a minimum of 10% instead of 5%.

That's what it said. And so this is like a few years ago when you're walking in and out of retail stores and people are coming up to you with clipboards for your signature for I think the marijuana one was the last big one that I saw. Right? Right. Because they gotta get a couple million of these signatures. So I don't know. So I guess, you know, for me, it's just a matter of whether it should require one to 2,000 signatures to get exposed to the rest of the city or if it needs to be double that.

Well, why double it? It doesn't have to be a right? It doesn't have to be five or 10. Right? I mean

So so there's there's two levers here. Right? There's the quantity and then the time Yeah. Too. Yeah. So you could make it more stringent or, like, an immediate issue because it

of

immediate rather than just important, call it, wait and change to ninety days. Sure.

You can do 10% in a hundred and twenty days or something like that.

That would make it more, you know. Yeah. I mean, again, you would need to get more, but you'd have a little bit more time so you can kind of move to leisure because we did, and again, just kind of tracking to the issue sheet, we had competing, or rather just competing requests on on this section.

Signatures? Is it the do you check the signatures or the supervisor of elections to make sure they are registered voters?

Right. So the 50 members, they form essentially what's a committee. That's how they're designated. And they are responsible for having enough funds to submit those signatures to the Broward County Supervisor Elections to be verified and the cost is 10¢ per signature. And in general, the numbers I've seen, can expect that for every 100 signatures you submit, probably 10% will get bounced. So if you're trying to hit, say, a number of 3,000, you're probably better off submitting at least 3,300 that would buffer just to account for, you know, people that signed the petition and they're not actively registered voters. They don't they live in country. They don't live in Creek, etcetera. So yeah.

And it's checked by the supervisor of elections.

That is correct because they have access to the voter rules. So we delegate that responsibility to them.

I

wouldn't mind seeing the number go up and, as Ali suggested, perhaps at the time, some more time to go.

Can I ask the staff? Has there been any issues or anything? Like, is this

like a

recurring challenge for city staff?

It's not really a recurring challenge. I think, well let's put it this way. I have served in this role for over ten years, and last year is the first time The time I've been here that I saw a petition filed with the city.

What was that what was the nature of that?

It was kind of a countermeasure to the commission's ordinance to move for an elected mayor. It provided for a different process as well as it was proposing to move the elections from March to November. Ultimately, the petitioner did not achieve the required number of signatures and did not forward it on to the supervisor of elections

is my understanding. So it just kind of it died. Right. Okay. So this isn't a big issue. I don't know. My I think my instincts are just as a I I don't know. I don't have a hard time with the number where it's at, I guess. I I don't we have we have two competing things where mayor Welsh wants the has suggested that be increased. And I guess Alex, you were pointing that out earlier, and and commissioner Reidel suggested decreasing it. I can definitely think it shouldn't be too easy to do. Right? Like

Yeah. Because you don't want a couple of

100 inverse and of of what you proposed and saying keep it at five, but then shorten the number of days. Yeah. So that that would be So if there's

some momentum behind it and

so if you've got 50, you need to get 3,000 more. 50 doesn't really put a denture to it. 50

Well, but 50 people who are dedicated.

They can find another 50 people? Easily can find

another 50 people to get out there.

They just have to find another 50 people, like, 50 times.

Yeah. No. But just this This person for the 50 needs to find 50.

So I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's a bad check, but like in terms of right. So last election, that was a pretty significant measure, I would say. The city was changing kind of the form of government with the elected mayor. A group of people said, hey, we're not sure we like that, I think is what we're kinda saying.

And they developed some kind of groundswell of support to counter it. They fell short of what was needed. It kinda died off, but at least they had the chance to do it. If it was 10%, I don't think I guess they still would have technically had the chance, but if they fell short of the 5%, the 10% probably would have they they might not even have tried it. I mean, I don't have a real strong conviction on it, I guess, but in general Could it

be a percentage? Is it does it have to be a percentage or could it be a number?

I don't think you want to tie it to a number because that could be deemed to be arbitrary and capricious. Mean, under state law it does say 10%. So if you're going to do it, I would suggest either keeping it the same or increasing it to the 10% to match stigma.

How does the time date, the ninety days?

Is that each track say a lot at all or

I believe that it does.

Okay. That's not so much not so cool.

The question is do we want

to I can bear

with that. Encourage people to do this or discourage people to do this?

Yeah. Or leave it.

Just leave it there.

Or leave it there Or leave it.

So the ninety days thank you does not track state law, but the 10% does. And is that

Is there any mention of days? Optician packet that the state

There is not, but so the state what's interesting is, you know, the state mostly tailors their statute pertaining to this to the requirement to obtain signatures for a referendum for a constitutional amendment, which is a little different than the charter. So, yeah, sorry that I don't have that readily available.

And as a practical matter, does the ninety days, like in that last in that last example, does that matter much to the city? Is there is there, like, a heavy weight where there's this suspended period of time? Where would it be beneficial or tangibly beneficial for it to be a shorter process? Or is there any, is that even felt by?

I don't know that it would be beneficial to have a shorter process. What do you think, Joe? I'm only asking because you and I both, I know, had a lot of discussions about this when the petition was filed recently, and you might have a better recollection than I do.

Were were you counting down the days, like, '89, '88?

Well, it was an interesting situation because, you know, I've only been, you know, city clerk and

the city of Coconut Creek

for about two and a half years. When I was in Oregon, I went through a petition process. They have slightly different rules than us, but very similar. So the ninety days wasn't from an administrative point of view didn't cause any issues for us as

I

recall. The part of it that's interesting is that you're waiting the ninety days to see if they get the signatures and you're kinda waiting for updates. Mhmm. Because once that happens and if they do get it, then it triggers a whole another set of deadlines at 08:04. The responsibility once it's filed and then has to go eventually to the commission, and there's deadlines that we have to respond by.

So our planning was if they did get the signatures, what time responsibilities did we have to respond? So that was where and I don't wanna speak on the city attorney's behalf, but that was our planning to be ahead of that to make sure our schedules were clear and we had everything laid out. As far as that ninety day period, for us, it was just wait and see, but it it is a big administrative lift on the back end if they were to get it, and then making sure the timeline is laid out and we file for our responsibilities.

I guess in the ninety days, are you planning your response or are you just waiting and then saying, okay, now I gotta respond? Because if if there are ninety days to that plan, that might that might be fine. Right? Right. Writing it down and saying, hey. They got it in a week. You ready? Like I I I think all of you

know our city attorneys. So the second we even heard that the petition could have been filed, the discussion up, and we were already plotting our timelines

Mhmm.

Ahead of time anyway. So we I think we get ahead of that administratively really well. But the ninety days itself from our work was just monitoring what was going on and assisting with the petitioner if they had any questions. So it wasn't so much a heavy lift from the city clerk's department point of view. And then I'll defer to Terrell and her department to kind of handle that.

I think the only other thing is we were trying to figure out is, as Joseph said, as it relates to the timelines, we were trying to determine through the supervisor of elections office whether or not it could go on the next election. Were we gonna get it in time or not? And then backing out everything from there, and that took a little bit of time, and then we had to relay that to the petitioner. And so even though this says ninety days, it could be shorter if they're trying to reach the next election and the supervisor of elections deadline is seventy five days away. You know, I mean, that's where it is partly a function of reality as far as the logistics and how they play render it for the next election.

They They may may have to wait until the following election cycle or it may be something that They may have plenty

of time.

If something has to wait for the next election cycle, let's say they missed the deadline, deadline, do they still go through the rest of the city process and kinda you now have this on deck initiative for the next ballot? Or do timelines expire such that they would have to restart the petition process process for the next election?

Give me a minute.

Sure. Does it expire?

I don't know if

you miss it by a

week. I mean, I would suggest that it's not still on deck the way that this is worded. It does provide that they will provide, you know, the petition signed by a minimum of 5% within ninety days. And it says must be filed within ninety days, so I take that as mandatory, not permissive. If it's not done, then they kind of don't pass go and they would have to refile. It is an interesting question because I don't know that it's really contemplated by the charter or even it may be contemplated by state law. But again, a lot of the state law is geared towards constitutional amendments. As far as, you know, if you attempt and you fail, how soon can you bring it back after the next election?

Right.

I would argue, at least under our charter, I don't think there's a provision, but you're starting over.

I don't see anything in here that says that if they don't make it to the election, it dies.

And and it would be incumbent upon the petitioner, right, to start

the process early so that everything can be

That's correct.

Done in time.

It it is. And that's something that we tell them way back here when they show up with their 50 signatures Under eight zero one? Or sorry. Eight zero two.

Does anybody have a huge appetite to modify, change? Anything I think I think they couldn't single handedly do anything. What they would do is they would have a they might have an an advantage in getting in getting the signatures as opposed to my neighborhood. But even that is just getting it to the, you know, I guess the the ultimate goal would be to get it on the ballot And then the city at large would vote for it. So I think a large community would have an advantage over a small community maybe.

Right? They could have a clubhouse. They have their board meetings. They put a sign on their little community buses. They go around in the community. Like, it's easier easier. It's it's codified. It's a community. But they wouldn't have any advantage in terms of getting it passed other than the advantage they just have in terms of every every election and every issue. If they wanna pull together as a voting block, they kinda get it anybody they want elected. That's a general I'm not that's not liberal. I shouldn't say that.

And just as a point of clarification, I mean, any member of the community can approach any commissioner at any time and try or the city manager and try to see if they can move something forward in front of the commission. It happens all the time through public comments at the commission meetings or individual meetings with commissioners or with the city manager. And oftentimes those ideas do come to fruition. One example of that is something that's going to be on the next agenda, tree canopy donation program where the city is talking about giving, you know, money to communities where their tree canopies have failed for various reasons to help them replenish them. So and that is something that is a process that the city has developed again based on resident input and kind of, you know, This taking their really comes up, I guess, in a situation where you have commission that's resistant to the changes that the petitioner wants to have made and it provides an avenue around the commission in order to put it to the voters and let the voters decide.

So it's part of the democratic process, but generally speaking, again, doesn't get used very frequently because we are pretty receptive here to considering options and ideas.

So raising it from five to 10%, somebody might say that similar it would be similar to this board being changed from every five years to every ten years because this is kind of also a checking balance on on the elected officials in the city. It's an opportunity to on rep some different ideas and get in front of the voters.

I think you get a reaction that we you're you're trying to make it more difficult Yeah. For the citizens to

Sure. Yeah. I think that was ultimately how it would be I think that not not just interpret it, but that's what it would be. Yeah. That's why I was asking if there was a process a problem that we were having that we needed to kinda a barrier. It doesn't seem to be. So at this point, I'm good with leaving it the way it is. Same here. But I'm very impressionable on that if anybody has a strong opinion. Okay? Okay. So

that takes us through eight zero three. We're now at eight zero four procedure after some middle of petition. I don't believe there is really any But kind

of the same It does. It does. Yes.

And then this will have that number nine on the issue sheet as well. Yes. So that was eight

zero Ten? I

don't know if 10

Oh, 10 had to do with clarifying calendar days versus business days. I think that it really

Oh, I see.

Was suggested if we were making other changes within this article to go ahead and make those changes.

You know what? Maybe my older number nine is I think 10, revise. Yeah.

Because I have Oh, you're off. Yeah.

Yeah. I have the previous. On mine, 10 is the 5% to 10%.

Yeah. Okay.

So yeah. So just stick with this. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I thought you're good.

We'll get back on track. I have 11 of the frame. Didn't provide enough time. That's okay. That's okay. It's okay. Or it'll turn up. You know you did it. It's no. No worries. So,

yes, number 10 basically just says clarify timeline calculations, calendar days versus business days if addressing other issues in the charter. I wasn't clear well, let me back up. I am clear. I think you were suggesting making changes to 801B to reference land development code and the comprehensive plan. Yes. So certainly we can address the calendar days versus business days if that is your direction. I guess the question is what is your preference? A lot of these time periods in here are short, like fifteen days, two days. My suggestion would be probably business days because I'd hate for a weekend to go by and we've missed the deadline.

So I think you should

I'm good with business days.

Yeah. Okay.

Generally, I found the most filing requirements to answer any an answer in court, etcetera. Generally, our business days as opposed to calendar days.

Unless it's over. All I

hear is extensions being filed in court.

What's kind of the rule of thumb? Isn't it business days?

It's supposed to be, but

If it's under I mean, like nine like ninety days, calculating ninety business days is opens the door for him. So Yeah. Misinterpretation.

That's an excellent point. Maybe what we wanna do is say, for example, an eight zero three c for ninety days, maybe we would clarify that it is calendar days. And then when we get down to eight zero four and we're talking about two days and fifteen days and five days, maybe that's where business days would be more appropriate.

Mhmm. I feel like in my business dealings, but hasn't been in a while, but I feel like fifteen days and less has been has usually been business days and over fifteen days or calendar days.

I don't

know if that's been anybody else's experience.

Or both. I agree, but sometimes people will read things ambiguously if it's not specified.

Well, in the courts, Florida, I'd have to look back to New York, but if you have twenty days to answer a complaint, for example, it's twenty business days, I believe,

isn't it? It's twenty calendar days.

Twenty calendar days. Mhmm.

I imagine then it's you know, then there's memorial days in there. Does that count, not count? What's not a business day? But then a a more obscure holiday is in there. Does that, you know, that

Whose business day? How are you defining it?

There could be a, you know, guess a I don't know if there's a place for a sweeping comment that it's calendar days unless otherwise noted. And then anywhere where it's under fifteen days or whatever number we're comfortable with, it's considered calendar days. I I would assume that means a hundred and twenty calendar days. Yeah. Which then we would generally interpret as four months, but it's not actually four months. But that's where the misunderstanding start.

That suggestion makes sense. Calendar days unless otherwise noted and then it's business days. Is everyone is is everyone okay with that? Yep.

Makes far does that get us?

We're at eight zero four. I mean, knock up a few. These issues are being done. Okay.

08:04 is the procedure after submittal of precision. Does anyone have any concerns or questions with the procedure?

I guess this would similarly have the days Yep. The mark.

Repeal of petitions suspension of effective ordinance in 08/2005.

Basically,

it just provides that the. If the petition is insufficient, then it can be repealed or if the petitioner's committee withdraws the petition, the commission repeals the ordinance that the petitioner was seeking to have changed, then it, you know, you can't donate it anymore or a referendum fails. So I think that just sets forth essentially when the item is dead.

So that just identifies what dead looks like?

Right. Exactly.

Okay. That makes sense.

And then if you wanna pick up next time, you could or we could just quickly cover actions by petitions. So there's actions by the commission and the submissions to the voter.

I think we just start there.

Okay. Yeah.

We'll just start there.

We'll start there

next time.

Guys, I was gonna ask you just because it's gonna be a while before we meet again. Right? It's gonna be

We have

approximately two off. Approximately two weeks, fifteen days. I wanna lose. I was gonna ask you to just to kind of chew on because I'm gonna somewhere along the line make a suggestion for us to consider and that is it's pretty significant one and I thought maybe in our downtime be thinking about right now we have five districts at some point we'll have four, but right now we have five districts. And the whole city votes for who the commissioner is in each of our districts.

And I've been for a while now, kind of going through pros and cons of the concept of each district voting for their own commissioner independent of everybody else's. So I guess I think maybe the phrase might be considered single district voting or you vote for the city, like, so everybody would vote for the mayor, but my district would vote for who my representative is and, you know, our representative is and your district vote for who your representative is. And and it and it kinda touches on the idea of Winmore, not picking on Winmore, but any big community. Community. If you get 4,000 people to show up to vote or 5,000 people to show up to vote, you got a pretty good shot at making something work happen. So there's I've come up with a few pros and cons, but I was just gonna throw that out there for people to kinda think about a little bit.

I am a firm believer that you at large commissions that you put at large district. Yeah. It's like saying, you know, Moscowitz is our congressman but the entire state votes, ma'am. Yeah. Doesn't make sense.

We don't

do it

at the state level. Yeah.

Just something that you want. Just wanna throw that out there.

I think what you're talking about is single member districts. Single member districts.

And yeah, but I want to open up the conversation on it. I was just thinking there's since we're gonna be gone for a couple weeks.

And then everybody would go for the mayor.

And then everybody. Oh, yeah.

That's that's an ambush position. Yep. Makes sense. I think.

No. It makes sense because

the commissioner's really responsible just for his district. Yep. They're they're her district. So they're The standout ones that I mean, they they have they're able to do everywhere, but they're I think maybe primary responsibility, I would say, is

the district. Yeah. They represent the voters, but they do have, I guess, a voice to the district. Alright. You're welcome.

So our next meeting is gonna be March 19 at 6PM. That's a Wednesday. I'm sorry. At 5PM. We're ending at six. I'm so sorry.

At least I could.

If we needed to, we could have the two hours because of the time change.

Okay. That's

yeah.

Holy moons. Yeah. Yeah.

So Okay. I'm good after the month. I'll say I have two hours. Alright.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.