Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

question.

Hi, welcome to the January 8th, 2026 meeting of the Athens County Planning Commission. Um, if you are watching this meeting on YouTube, you will find the meeting agenda at accccclgov.com. For those of you here in person, there is a sign-in sheet and copies of tonight's agenda on the table by So, here's the process for each of the items on the agenda. First, staff will make a presentation. Then, we'll move to public comment in support of the application. We allow 10 minutes for the applicant to address the commission, followed by members of the public speaking in favor who received three minutes each. After comments in support of the application, we move to comments in opposition. All speakers receive three minutes, but if you are here representing a specific interest group such as a homeowners association, please let us know so we may allocate appropriate amount of time. When addressing the commission, please provide your name, address, and nature of your interest in the project. After public comment, the applicant or their representative may request a two-minute response. Please note the timer. It will display a yellow light when you have 30 seconds left and a red light when your time has expired. Once we have heard from members of the public, the planning commission will discuss the item. We will not receive additional public comments unless there is a specific question to be addressed. Exhibits may be displayed by the applicants or public at the podium. Written correspondence received by noon yesterday and has been forwarded to the commission as part of the public record. We did receive something today. We're going to address that in a minute. Any additional written materials um will be read during the public comment period. um or m any additional written materials to be placed into the record separate from all of that must be read during the public comment period. Please direct your comments to the planning commission and not to the applicants and please refrain from applauding or cheering any of the speakers. And finally, please note that this meeting is being broadcast live and our microphones are very sensitive. Please turn off or silence your cell phones. Thank you.

Um, I will entertain a motion to introduce staff reports and other documents for the record. Okay. All those in favor say I. I. Um, on the subject of documents, we did receive this um, handout earlier today and so we can also I will entertain a motion to um, accept that into the public record. So, right.

Second. All right. All those in favor say I. Yeah. Um um anyone want to make a motion regarding the minutes from last meeting to approve the minutes from last? Okay. Second. Second. Second. All right. All those in favor say I. I. I. Great. May. No make courts presentation. Okay. All right. So, with that, we'll move to our first item of old business, 570 Prince Avenue.

All right. Um, this 570 Prince Avenue, it's PD 202581577. This is the master PD review. The preliminary review um was held at the September 4th hearing. Lori Borg newcomer with ARCAB is the applicant. Um board of regents is the owner. This request remains as seen previously at the preliminary review to reszone the property from G government to CN commercial neighborhood PD plan development. The future land use would change from government to main street business. The scope of the project with the master PD um includes a kitchen addition to the existing historic main structure, the president's house, and a new hotel structure with the historic accessory buildings being kept in place. Um, there are 72 guest rooms proposed. That's down from 116 rooms at the preliminary review. The size of the new structure is proposed at 38,493 square ft decreasing from 74,230. There'd be 86 surface parking spaces on site. There is one waiver requested. Um the waiver regards the 10,000 square foot limitation um on hotel use uh to allow for 5 thou 53,541 square ft and that is reduced from 87,753 um at the preliminary review. Uh the second waiver has been eliminated that had been about um off-site parking and there's no longer any off-site parking proposed.

This is the future land use map. The existing future land use is G is G for government since it is owned by um the Port of Regents. Once they no longer own it, it's not being used for a government purpose. does have to change what is proposed as Main Street business that is consistent with the non-governmental properties alone prints. Looking at the zoning um again it is zoned government currently and that would have to um change if it's not owned and operated by uh a government entity. Um commercial neighborhood with a PD is what's proposed. There is not any commercial neighborhood directly adjacent to this property. You can just see the closest um CN at the bottom left of each of the maps. That's the eastern half of the Episcopal Church property. Does have that CN zoning. This is a 2021 aerial photograph and it does remain representative of the current conditions of this property. uh an environmental areas map uh showing you that there are no environmental areas um on this property or the immediate um neighbors. This is showing the existing conditions of um the property, the existing development of it. Um at least the front portion of the lot, the main historic structure, the president's house um was built in 1856. Uh behind it there's a historic cottage as well as a historic kitchen and carriage house and those would remain. Um the only structure to be removed is a non-historic garage um that it sits just west of that um kitchen carriage house.

This is the proposed plan. Um there is a kitchen addition you can see that is to the east of the main structure that's proposed behind that. The historic kitchen carriage house is attached with a hyphen um to the proposed new hotel structure. Uh and then surface parking um is located mostly behind that. This slide compares the current master PD plan with the preliminary PD plan seen in September. Um, and so the preliminary plan is what you see in kind of the red and pink colors for [clears throat] structures and um site coverage. This is um showing you the entirety of the parcel and so there is no development that is proposed on that back part of the parcel which buts mostly single family residences elevations at the top of the screen is the front elevation. Um you can see the kitchen addition uh to the right of that structure um proposed addition. The rear image shows the rear of the new hotel building that's proposed. You can see the hemped roof of the historic president's house. um sticking up behind the top image is uh from the west looking to the east. Uh you can see the hyphen connector that is proposed um for the kitchen carriage house to the new hotel structure. Um, and then at the bottom it is from the east looking to the west with that kitchen edition, the retained cottage in the new hotel.

Um, this is an oblique rendering. This would be from standing a bit down the driveway. Um, the existing driveway that would be that location would be retained. uh rendering from the existing rear courtyard looking north towards the um new hotel structure. The top it's another view um that is looking to the west. Uh at the bottom it is looking down from the um it looking down into the courtyard space um the existing courtyard space that's retained. Some photographs of the existing conditions. This is the front of the building. The historic kitchen carriage house is seen to the on the left image. Uh the historic cottage to the right. Um both of these are to be retained in their existing locations. The northeast rear corner of the president's house is where a new kitchen addition would be would connect uh with that structure. The staff evaluation is that the project is compatible with the comprehensive plan in regards to infill and development and the preservation and reuse of existing structures. Um compatible with the future land use map and the zoning map. There is one waiver requested um to allow 53,541 square feet of hotel use. Um staff does not support this request. Um finding that the scale remains a concern. Um

although the hotel use is compatible. Uh staff recommends denial. Um and I just further want to note that if a available during the review if needed, we do have some other slides comparing the uh preliminary and master plans. I will hear from the applicant. [clears throat]

My name is Lori Bour Newcomer. I live at 150 Palaski Heights in Athens. Um if we'd like to submit for the planning commission's consideration recommended conditions of approval stemming from letters from the adjacent neighborhoods that we're happy to integrate if you'll accept them. I will entertain a motion if let's let everybody look at I mean just to accept the the document is all I'm asking [laughter] not not not the recommendations you can evaluate that um well I'll start comment I'll start your clock after okay perfect after if this is going to be accepted into the record let's take that action

right uh I would like to make a motion to accept it into the writer. Second. Second. All in favor say I. I.

Thank you. Um, thank you all for being here with us tonight. Um, we've listened to the feedback and we're here tonight with a much smaller hotel that allowed the preservation of the president's home and welcome people into the home for decades to come. Here's what changed. Now, Amber touched on a lot of it. Um, size and scale. The total the total hotel new construction above grade and I do want to clarify from the staff's report this is above grade total square footage is 38,500 square ft instead of the original 67,000 square feet um reduced by almost half. Room count has been reduced from 116 to 72. The interior vent space and the underground parking have been removed. All parking is now on site. A smaller scale allowed us to fine-tune the look and feel of the project. Um, actually a historic cottage and kitchen smokehouse structures are preserved in their current current location will be adapted for reuse. The cottage as a special guest suite and the smokehouse as part of the hotel entry. Um, a new small glass hyphen connection is proposed between the smokehouse and the new building right there. This hyphen becomes the main hotel entrance on the west. And as you enter and see the historic courtyard through the glass in front of you, we imagine to the right um a check-in counter within the smokehouse itself, allowing guests to experience this moody historic space uh largely in its historic condition with its dark patina exposed framing um for all to see. The architecture of the new building is more residential in clear. The brick is reduced to the ground level with lap siding on the upper two levels for compatibility and continuity with the historic house. The existing formal patio to the rear of the house is preserved with connected walkways and plantings added within the

courtyard framed by the new hotel building. The U-shaped building still a aids in buffering the the excuse me the U-shaped building still aids in buffering the courtyard acoustically from the surrounding neighbors and is tucked further away from Prince Avenue and the historic house as Amber pointed out previously. You can see that gray underlay below the original red. Worked closely with public works on a storm water plan that exceeds county requirements. The new plan will maintain existing storm water outfalls to the Prince Avenue corridor in lie of connecting to the Grady Avenue corridor. It uses bio retention, forest pavement, and subsurface detention to significantly reduce runoff and outfall compared to even the pre-development conditions even in a 100red-year storm event and avoids impacts to downstream infrastructure. Preservation is achieved with the PD zoning. Um, and I think Bruce alluded to this earlier, a plan development gives the maximum protection and assurances to the community. The owner is required to do what is on the plan and no more. The green space is guaranteed by the PD not to change. The improved site plan and building elevations will be binding. Any further building expansion or changes to the exterior of the home or out buildings would have to go through the same public process for an approval as amended PD. I know you all know that, but um a standard reszone would provide none of these protections. A preservation easement is still intended for the historic house facads and front garden along with the conservation easement for the rear gardens, but neither of these can be put in place until ownership of the property changes hands, which cannot happen until after these zoning approvals. [clears throat] Ultimately, with approval, he'll have preserved one of Athens most historic homes and 2.7 acres of historic

landscape. The proposed development meets all building regulations, including height, size, and lot coverage for the prevailing CN or CO zoning categories along Prince Avenue. If the property were subdivided as at its natural boundary jog, approximately in line with the other surrounding commercial and mixed density residential zone properties, as indicated in this image in pink, the proposed development would still be 11% less than the lot coverage limits and 42% less than the max floor area ratios for CN zoning in just this portion. The question is not whether the size building or site development is appropriate for this parcel within this corridor. It's well below all ACC ordinance limitations under the prevailing zoning categories and should be able to be developed under a myriad of different uses at this scale and greater. The question is whether the hotel is an appropriate use for this location and this development. We contend that it's a very good use of the property and preferable to most alternatives. Benefits include on-site site management that ensures guests have a pleasant and peaceful stay, which in turn promotes a peaceful atmosphere for surrounding property owners. Engineers and ACC staff affirmed that the trip calculations show no significant traffic impact. It creates good jobs and will generate higher tax revenue than most other potential uses due to the additional 7% hotel motel tax. It addresses the shortage of hotel rooms in Athens. The hotel will provide additional patronage to support other Prince Avenue businesses. Places like birdies needed additional patronage. It'll help Hendershots and others. The number of guest rooms in line is in line with the 68 bedrooms in the three adjacent mixed density residential properties. That density is folded into the fabric of Grady Avenue without significant disturbance to the street or neighborhood. [laughter]

This provides the revenue and nec and the revenue and necessity to maintain and care for the full grounds. A hotel is a preservation sensitive use for the existing structures. It's very compatible with the existing historic room configurations and the manner in which they've been traditionally used. The parlor rooms are able to serve as lobby lounge space with access to the large rear covered porch. Upstairs bedrooms become guest rooms and the restaurant being on the lower garden level and connect to the rear ver veranda and courtyard. But perhaps most importantly, for over half a century, this property has been a place where UG presidents have welcomed and entertained students, faculty, and out of town guests. The boutique hotel and restaurants continue the spirit of hospitality, providing access to this historic resource not only for invited university guests, but for the general public to enjoy. Our intown neighborhoods are desirable and vibrant places to live largely because we have commercial uses that are within walking distance adjacent to our residential zones. Places for us to gather like Authentic Brewery, Heirloom, Normal Town Brewing Company, Hendershots, and more. This will become another community asset, a place where we can sit in the courtyard and enjoy a cocktail in this historic setting. Other viable permissible uses in our zoning ordinances for this Prince Avenue corridor like like medical offices for multifamily will not create this sense of place or community benefit. The requested waiver is for just under 54,000 square feet of hotel use, which is larger than the actual perceivable impact of this request. Almost 6,600 of this number is a placeholder for basement utilities and laundry facilities. There's no perceived massing scale or or operational impact on the surrounding area and testings have shown no rock in this area. A portion of the historic buildings portion of the historic buildings allocated to the hotel use totals almost 8,500 square

feet. It's already approaching the 10,000 square foot limit with only two to four guest rooms. That's because these historic spaces are inefficient, but it's a good use for preservation. The parlor level of this home is much more is much more lobby space than you would normally allocate to a hotel this size. The additional area is working against us and is why we are seeking the level of this requested waiver. The reality is that the perceptible new hotel building is less than 38,500 ft above grade. This is more in line with the 37,500 foot limitation requested by the historic album Foundation and 35,000 foot hotel waiver previously granted to the Rivet House Hotel in a CN zoning district in close proximity to the Boulevard residential neighbors. The 38,500T building is what makes the hotel work. The additional area beyond that is primarily for historic preservation purposes and allows us to open it up to the public with a non-invasive use. In summary, the proposal before you is heavily responsive to community input, aligns with the Athens, clar countyy's comprehensive plan, future land use map, and zoning map, meets all environmental, storm, water, utilities, parking, traffic, and fire protection requirements while creating a use which maintains a sense of place, supports historic preservation, and carries the site's tradition of hospitality into the future for all through America. Thank you for your consideration. Um, is there anyone here to speak in support? Oh, sorry. Yeah, shaking that. Here to speak in support of the application.

Hey, good evening everybody. My name is David Bradley and I live at 316 Ashbrook Lane. Um, and I want to first say thank you for your work. It goes often unnoticed and unappreciated, but whatever your decisions are are always thoughtful, and I appreciate that immensely. Uh, when the board of regents announced that they were selling this property, what did we know? We knew it was going to change. So, we can we we just have an opportunities in front of us and I'm here to offer support for this project. Probably a year ago, I had an opportunity to meet with Dr. campaign and his initial plan was pretty dog on ambitious. I was concerned about the breadth of the project as presented several months back. But I'm more impressed, however, by how thoughtful he and his development team have been in listening to concerns. And I believe that what we're seeing tonight is great value. The property is majestic from the outside, but I think we all recognize that the internal infrastructure is going to need more support and more financial support than most anybody could could provide for a project like this and maintain that historical property which is so significant for Athens. And as noted earlier, the project is on one of the most eclectic arteries in Athens. But unfortunately that artery has seen several commercial entities have uh financial concerns in in tough economic time. This project will provide visibility and traffic into the pockets of those local business owners and particularly as we see the uh the school of medicine just a mile down the road. the f those folks at visitors to the school of medicine, the people that are working in the school of medicine and need this property. We need more rooms in in Athens. So, the bones of of this

revised project are solid, but again, I would just say that the muscle is manifested with the developer. I've spoken to my colleagues in Gainesville and they know that he is he does what he says and he says what he does and he does it with passion and he does it with heart. So y'all, I just offer my support and I'm appreciative of your time. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else to speak in support of the proposal?

Leeing. I live in 1800 Crescent Lane. Uh two years ago, we put together a group uh that brought the university and and local people together to see the house saying that we needed to preserve it and save it. And uh we begged we begged the community to get behind it. Um I understand now that we have the opposition uh has a nonprofit put together. I I don't understand what it is yet because I I didn't know about till today, but uh to request that this not be saved or done this with it. But if you don't put your to be crude, if you don't put your money where your mouth is and we've gone two years and nobody has come up with anything else, uh that's that's sad to me. So, these people have worked extremely hard. They put together something that I was excited about with the hotel to begin with, but I agreed it was too big. It was too much. And they were doing certain things that it [clears throat] just didn't work. It was going to be too much uh with the banquet banquet rooms and all that. It was going to be too much. They've gone back. They've taken all of our concerns, all of columns and historic uh Athens and all that concerns and gone back and and changed almost and have and [clears throat] brought it down to what is feasible. They've taken the underground parking worried about blasting that's gone. Taken the offremise parking, they've taken that

away and gotten rid of that. They've cut the rooms down to uh about half or whatever percentage it is. They're saving and putting preservation easements and it has to have those preservation easements on that. When we met with the university on Octo January the 8th uh two years ago, Board of Regents agreed that those preservation easements had to go on once somebody signed. the university is not going to put them on there. Once they sign the contract uh to buy it, they have to go on there. So, we'll have the preservation easements. Hopefully, they'll get the tax credits for the interior uh of the building, saving the integrity of that. And guys, we it they've done everything we've asked within a reason and still make it feasible for them to make money. We want whatever goes in there to make a profit. Otherwise, it will be it won't be there. If a law office goes in there, it lasts for five years and then they need more help and

and it's gone. So, I'm for it, y'all. Okay. Anyone else? I'll be shy. Hearing none, we will go to those in opposition. And I believe we have a neighborhood representative who has signed up to speak. [clears throat]

Oh, this is an opposition. My name is Ian Thomas, 645 Boulevard, and uh I'm here to represent the Boulevard Neighborhood Association. basically read the steering committee's position statement on the revised proposal for the UG President's House project. Um, first of which, I know I have 10 minutes. I'm not going to take anywhere near that ass. And secondly, I'd like to say that we appreciate that Capstone sent out that supplementary material. We didn't have a chance to to look at that before we made our statement and I know they've discussed some of the issues that we bring up here. Okay. So, as a steering committee for the Boulevard Neighborhood Association, we acknowledge and appreciate Capstone Property Group's attention to our concerns about the scale and impact of the proposed redevelopment of the U.J. President's House as a hotel. Uh, the revised downsized proposal represents a significant step forward for resolving [clears throat] some of our most pressing concerns. We do however remain concerned about several potential issues. Uh the first of which is the overall scale of the proposed project. Uh at over 50,000 square feet, it remains far larger than CN CNN and allows for hotels. We echo the Athens Clark County Planning Department's report which states while the size of the subject property could potentially be a justification for some degree of hotel use in excess of 10,000 square feet, 53,541 square feet is far too great a deviation from the maximum allowed. That's the end quote. Our second concern is the long-term preservation uh preservation and conservation. Again, we appreciate Capstone's init intention to place a preservation easement on the facade and the front gardens, but we need a legally binding guarantee that this easement will be written, executed, and enforced to the satisfaction of historic Athens and the National Trust for historic preservation. Uh third, storm water runoff. Given the

trend towards increasingly intense rainfall events, we urge speed and transparency in redesigning and sharing details of the storm water system before any action by the mayor and uh commission. Fourth, pedestrian and bicycle safety. Creating a turn lane that could allow eastbound cars on Prince Avenue to turn left into the property's driveway creates complexity and potential risks both for the nearby pedestrian crosswalk and for the bicycle lane on the north side of Prince. We request more detailed review and recommendations to address these concerns perhaps by the group that designed the prior safety improvements to Prince Avenue in the first place. Next, the impact on neighborhood parking. We appreciate again the efforts to minimize the size of the parking lot, but we wonder how this number of parking spaces can adop accommodate hotel guests, restaurant guests, and staff. This raises the possibility that neighborhood streets will become de facto overflow parking zones. Proposed parking configuration seems inadequate for the size of the request. What realistic solutions are there for overflow and staff parking that we devised to address them? Uh, next and last is neighborhood noise concerns. Given the proximity to residential neighbors, especially now that the hotel is proposed to be set deeper into the property, we request specific agreements limiting or barring the use of amplified music in the courtyard, as well as an agreement not to hold events in the green space behind the hotel. We also request specific enforcable assurances that events will respect neighborhood neighbors rights to peace and privacy. The last thing gets kind of a larger issue. Uh this addresses the need for changes in our zoning ordinances uh specifically to provide better protections for residential neighborhoods that abut active commercial streets. Because residential neighborhoods like

ours are facing increasing development pressures now, we urge the mayor and commission to develop and adopt changes as soon as possible. Changes should include enhancing structural and landscape buffering requirements, providing clear noise control regulations, directing increased traffic away from residential streets, improving safety for pedestrians and cyclists, and ensuring that storm water management is adequate. Thank you.

Anyone else to speak in opposition? Hey, since I am part also representing a different organization, how much time do we split whatever is left with? Um, I'm with Keep Athens Local since you said they normally get longer amounts of time, but they're normally supposed to be signed up in advance. Yeah, you sign up in advance and and you can split time 10 minutes for pro, 10 minutes for con. So, how much did he use? three. Three and a half to four minutes. Okay. So, how much time do I have? You do the six.

Okay. All right. So, I had spoken briefly when I did get here. Sorry. I spoke with other people, I guess. And, um, there wasn't an opportunity. Robert Oh, sorry. My name is Laura Benz. Uh, Ben Law, 19 West Broad Street, noon in Georgia. I'm here for Keep Athens local. Um, wait, can I pass these out first? No. I had asked if I could get hooked up or I had a flash drive and so the technology wasn't and so I brought just they're just slide hands out, right? Just so when I'm talking about pictures, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I need a motion to Yeah. I mean, if you want to hand them out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. motion to accept the record. Yes. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor? I Sorry. Who was the second?

Okay. And how much time does I keep my little things? Okay. We're going to fly. All right. Thank you very much. As I said, my name is Laura Benz. I'm with Keep Athens Local. We are a neighborhood preservation organization that is uh committed to uh the um preservation of historical neighborhoods as well as with specific interest to this home. Many of our members um surround this area and live in this area and call um Prince Avenue and the surrounding areas home. So, one of the things I want to emphasize that's kind of been hit on several times through the discussion is anything that gets proposed on this property will have to come before this board as well as come before the mayor and planning um pardon me, the mayor and commission. So, I think it's really important that everybody remembers that any project, this one or any subsequent projects would have to come before when we're looking at a zoning request. It's important, especially under PD, that we're looking at the entire thing. I think there's been a lot of emphasis just on the waiver for the hotel use. However, it needs to be looked at that this project is being proposed as a 58,620 foot development. If you look at the second page of the the handouts that I gave you, it breaks out exactly how each of those uses are. Sorry, and they were double double-sided. I apologize. Didn't know that until until they were handed to me, but um it breaks out the uses. And so when we look at what type of zoning procedure we're going for, section 943 lays out what are the considerations that you as well as subsequent mayor and commission will be looking at. You should have received a letter that I submitted yesterday um that goes through every single one of those zoning considerations, how they failed to meet those zoning considerations, and what are the other factors that were omitted from that. So what we want to talk about is looking at it holistically. Right? You've got a project that is being proposed at five times the size of what is typically permitted under CN zoning. As somebody else just said, there's no there's no discussion. We have concerns about where the parking is going to be for employees. We have concerns. All the

concerns about the level of soil movement and earth movement that were concerns about the underground parking are still relevant. They're just moved to underground storage for detention, storm water detention and a basement. that's still going to be moving a tremendous amount of earthwork in a very small area. Um, at one point there had been a suggestion by a party that there be a cultural resource survey completed um to see if there's anything that um has not been identified as far as archaeological or historical or Native American or perhaps unknown burials, things like that. Um, at this point there's no consideration of of trying to document to make sure that there are known resources. If you flip to the next page, that just gives you a general look. actually took the pictures from the MLS site. So if you look at the top one, it shows the window. Those trees will be moved. You'll be looking from the house and you'll see the hotel similar to where the bottom photograph is shown. That is where the actual building will be standing um removing all of those um facilities. They're proposing to remove 23 large trees. All of the trees that um are adjacent to the driveway, those will need to be removed to give enough space for the driveway to be expanded as well as the sidewalk. So the view from Prince Avenue to that property will look dramatically different. Um obviously they committed to restrict and hold on to as much vegetation as possible. However, that does not give us any types of assurances on the other ones. If you turn to the next page, I went ahead and I highlighted what the permitted uses are for commercial. As you can see, if you were coming about this in a different way, you would say, I have a 53,000 foot hotel. What's the appropriate zoning? and you would look at either a CZ, pardon me, a CG or a CD, those are the ones that allow that zoning without a waiver. If you go though, however, the the zoning considerations for what you consider for a reasonzoning, you'll see comprehensive comprehensive plan compliance again and again and again. So, if you look at the future land use muse map that I've

attached right there, you can see that CG and CD are not in there, which is why that the applicant has just opted to use the CN with the PD. Um, essentially flip to the next page. Sorry. Um, the purpose of the PD, it's the intent of this district to encourage development that is a compatible land use on a larger scale than that of individual parcels. This district is designed to be an overlay appended to a residential, commercial, or industrial district to provide greater latitude with regard to the internal site planning considerations as a development. Um, the whole purpose is to use the spirit and intent of the underlining zoning. Spirit intent was to limit a hotel use to 10,000 square feet, not to allow a hotel of 50,000. If so, Main Street Development would have allowed a CG or a CD to be within that characteristic. They did not. This is merely an attempt to skirt that limitation. If they were to request just a normal CZ CN designation with a waiver on the size, Georgia law is very clear. you cannot get a variance or a waiver on a permitted use. So, this is just a manner to skirt that legal restriction. If you flip to the next page, we have the uh this is the current zoning map. The light pink is the CN, the purplish pink is the CD, and the red is the CG. That shows you that if we were looking at where a comparable hotel of this size could be situated, those areas are it. Not the light pink, that's the CN that they're asking for, but the dark pink as well as the red. These residents that live in these adjacent areas had no reasonable expectation that they would have a hotel of this size by looking at this zoning map. There was nothing that could justify having a hotel of that size. Flip. Next, we go to the comprehensive plan study. The 2023 comp plan incorporates the Prince A, pardon me, the Prince Avenue corridor study as

well as Athens in motion. Um, these particular studies did extensive work. If we flip to the next page because I'm running out of time, it shows you what was the result of the Georgia the G DOT audit where they took the traffic from Prince Avenue from a level four to a level one two to encourage bike safety as well as multimodal safety. um you can see where that is and then at your leisure you can flip through the other pages because I'm out of time um about the fact that their traffic would essentially remove that uh crosswalk and that protection for those areas. Thank you.

Anyone else? Hello, my name is Kemp Jones and I've lived at 735 Prince Avenue for over 45 years. Lori and I love where we live and consider ourselves fortunate. Living next door to a church slashmission slash businesscorporation. A non-residential entity is different than having a residential next door neighbor. Such entities have their agenda and that is not a bad thing. But a business agenda is not the same as a residential neighbor's agenda. In the hotel plans, there are references like rejecting, planning to, and encouraged to. As many items as possible need to be nailed down. Ballet drivers will not drive on neighborhood blocks. I know what that says, but I don't know what that actually means. There will be no queuing up on Prince Avenue. Define queuing and how is that enforced? Who makes that call? How will a neighbor or the neighborhood at large communicate with a large hotel? Who will the point of contact there be? Security, the manager, the board, the owner. It can be difficult to communicate with a business entity, particularly one that is large and complex. Businesses are busy with the business at hand. They are not in the business of being a neighbor. And these entities have power, determination, and often deep pockets and usually substantial legal resources. It is easy for a complaint or communication to get lost in the

referring process. And if the goal is to ignore, delay, or even stonewall, that is easily accomplished. Prince Avenue is pleasant, somewhat scenic, and comparatively calm. Is the last such entrance to downtown Athens. The home and small business owners on Prince need no thanks, but we are holding down a nice threat. Prince Avenue and surrounding neighborhoods should not be gambled with. Thank you. Anybody else to speak in opposition?

Um, Liz DeMarco, 327 Hill Street, and I am here to uh read Historic Cobb Foundation. I am now the chair for that organization. Um, I'm gonna have to skip through because it's longer than three minutes. So, uh, neighbor, uh, Historic Coinb Foundation response to 570 Prince Avenue master PD package. Historic Foundation Board of Trustees appreciates the thoughtful response to our August 282 petition regarding the plan development preliminary reszone package. After review of Capstone's letter, FNQ press release and plan development master reszone package, we have made the f following assessments. Can you hear me? M. Okay. Um, [clears throat] please accept this response for consideration moving forward with the application process. The subject parcel at 570 Prince Avenue has a unique opportunity to become a valuable community resource, a point of pride for our growing tourism sector, the next great walkable destination for neighborhood residents, a shining example of activated historic preservation and wise application of the commercial neighborhood land use zoning category. We hope that our requests below inspire the development team, planning commission, maring commission to continue progressing this development toward towards those goals. Our recommendation are as follows. Number one, scale and zoning consistency. Skipping to the part. Okay. While we understand that 10,000 square feet of hotel use on a 5.05 05 acre parcel fields limiting community precedence of a three times increase for the rivet house was a parcel of greater than 11 acres in an industrial setting. Parcel size alone should not dictate waiver

increase. We maintain a recommended maximum square footage of 37,800 square ft which should include all hotel utilities and services. Number two site and historic preservation. We appreciate updated language in the narrative report, but find no preservation easements nor requirement for them within the binding application documents. It is imperative that a preservation easement be obtained for the front gardens facade of the house and rear gardens. While we appreciate the statement in quote uh beginning quotes, the remainder of the property to the north outside the main hotel operation zone will remain pressed of green space, landscape features and plantings in the front of the house, especially the boxwood part and mature magnolia should remain unchanged. End quote. There are no asurances nor guarantees within the application material that these areas will be preserved. Preservation easement requirements must be enforcable. Language in the plan development should stipulate that a preservation easement be secured prior to building or construction document permit issuance. I have to

thank you. The rest was submitted. Anyone else to speak on?

Good evening. My name is Mike Mills. My wife Jasmine and I live at 763 North Poke Street in a house I bought in 1986. I rise today in staunch opposition to this plan and to read a letter submitted by Greg Bard, a nationwide section 8 housing developer who worked in several cities in Georgia and lives in the Boulevard neighborhood. In the Athens, Clark County Planning Department staff report of their review of the UG President's House proposed plan development. One element was notice noticeably missing, specifically a review of any proposed off-site storm water plan. Both Prince Avenue and the Boulevard neighborhood already suffer from a deficit of storm water infrastructure. There is only one storm water collection area on Grady Avenue and one on all of Boulevard between Barber and North Chase Streets. Prince Avenue similarly has only three collection areas between King Avenue and Palaski Street. This results in large volumes of water being surface flowed for long distances in the streets to collection areas during heavy rain events, often large volumes at high velocity. In one case, storm water from the area between Grady and Virginia avenues is conveyed beneath Boulevard and discharged from a 10-in pipe into a residential lot on Boulevard and surfaced and flowed across three residential lots to a storm water intake located on Nantala. During major rain events, peak discharge can reach up to 3,000 gallons a minute or 180,000 gallons an hour. This has resulted, not surprisingly, in significant property damage on more than one occasion. The current underground storm water infrastructure is likely antiquated and designed for an area which had significantly less impervious surfaces than today, let alone with future development pressures. It is unclear from the documents submitted by Capstone Property Group where storm water is proposed to be routed. There is an easement option to connect to the Grady Avenue collection point, but it is unknown if this collection point is one of the sources for the open discharge point discussed above. The actual capacity and condition of existing storm

water infrastructure needs to be addressed fully and is absent from the staff report. I urge the planning commission to follow the staff recommendations and deny approval to this. Thank you.

My name's Jasmine Paul and I live at 763 North Pope Street. I appreciate staff's recommendation to deny this proposal. A hotel that is five times the size the zoning allows just doesn't fit our residential neighborhood and I'm really glad that's being acknowledged. I do want to speak briefly about the review process because that matters too. Staff can only review what's actually been submitted and in this proposal some really basic pieces are missing. We just heard about the storm manage management uh plan tonight. That means there's no real way for us to know whether this project would increase the flood risk in our neighborhood. The same is true for traffic. The developer says a study was done but only shared a portion of the report. For a project of this size, especially on Prince Avenue, where the community has spent a decade improving safety, a fragment of a report is just not enough information to understand the impacts. These aren't technicalities. They draw a straight line to public safety and long-term stability in our neighborhood. When key information isn't provided, the commission and the public can't fully identify the risks. I'm asking the commission to deny its recommendation of this project, and I respectfully request that the absence of a storm water plan and a complete traffic study be noted as part of the basis for that denial. Complete submissions and thorough review need to be the baseline expectation for any developments of this scale. Thank you for your time. Good evening. My name is Amy Cassain. I live at 526 Highland Avenue and I'm here tonight to speak in opposition to this proposal and I will echo many of the voices made. My primary concerns are the historic and conservation easements, impacts on the surrounding neighborhoods and on Prince Avenue and the impact that approval would have on our on the integrity of our zoning ordinance and the future protection of our

neighborhoods. So first the easements the applicant has said that they will secure preservation and confer conservation easements but they have not done so yet. In several documents they state permanent preservation easement will be finalized prior to construction. A conservation easement will be obtained um to be to be finalized. So, I heard what they said that that can't be done until the property is, you know, is is sold, but you can still come up with the details and probably provide some more information. I mean, we we have asurances, but we have no proof and we don't know what the specific protections are going to be. We don't know what entity will hold those easements. We don't know what criteria will be used by the holder to review changes once they have the easement and whether or not the easements will even be legally enforceable. And frankly, there's no guarantee that they can get easements on this project that has been proposed. So, in the end, you might approve it, the commission might approve it, and then they can't get easements. Next, I want to address impacts the neighborhood. Is there anyone here who genuinely thinks that a 72- room hotel with a 68 seat restaurant dropped onto a two-lane neighborhood street in the midst of multiple single family neighborhoods is not going to have adverse effects traffic. We don't have a traffic study and we can't evaluate their methods or conclusions until we do. Parking plans don't allow for staff and who knows what the future of a two-lane Prince Avenue will be. Storm water, there is no plan. impacts of car lights coming and going, outdoor events. The applicant and others often turn to it could be worse. But in fact, at this size, this proposal is one of those worst case scenarios. Just because the applicant has reduced the size, and I applaud them for all their efforts, doesn't make it all right. In fact, it's kind of irrelevant. We don't judge this proposal in comparison to the first,

frankly, astronomically out ofcale proposal. We judge it for what it is and what it is is too big, too intense, and not right for this property. There's a reason this project is not allowed by right. It does not meet the definition of a hotel and a commercial neighborhood zone. Does not satisfy the intent of our future land use or comp plans. And it does not meet the criteria of our plan development process. I live in five points. There's five blocks on Lumpin Avenue that are zone CN. What's to stop the same thing from happening on those blocks? Right. within two blocks of five points. Our zoning regulations are meant to protect property values and the rights and quality of residents and property owners. And yet, Capstone developers are asking our government to break, not bend, the rules so that they can maximize their profits. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Hey, Tony Eubank, 785 North P Street. Um, [clears throat] first thing I want people to quit comparing to the to the Rivet House. The ribbon house occupies the same building that was there prior to being converted into a hotel. This is a brand new building being added on on top of. So, the ribbon house is completely irrelevant for proposal uh for comparison purposes. Second of all, the uh PR materials say that there's not going to be as much excavation because the underground parking is um has been eliminated. Well, the footprint has been increased by 20%. So overall, there's going to be more impervious surface than there was before. And all of that underground parking is going to require excavation. Excavation, taking the dirt out, excav uh dump trucks, bringing the gravel in. Um [clears throat] when when there was underground parking, I could at least make some sort of calculations as to how many dump trucks trips that would be. I cannot do that in this case because I don't know what the underground storm water retention looks like because it wasn't provided. Um the I I don't understand why you don't have to have a buffer. The the fire lane on the east side of the property adjoins or abuts the driveway for a manual church. So instead of a buffer there, you're going to have, it looks like from the plan, two lanes for trash and fire directly adjacent to a driveway for Emanuel Church. And um that it seems like why why are we not requiring a buffer there? Uh and I I'm sorry I'm speaking extemporane extemporaneously here. Uh when we talk about excavation, because of the elevation change in the property, all of that parking in the

rear, that's all going to have to be excavated just to make it level with the hotel. So, they claim that there's going to be less excavation because there isn't underground parking. I can't assess that accurately without the actual plan, but I'm willing to bet it's going to be something real similar to what it was before. So, thank you. you.

Hi, my name is Kathy Kerbo and I live at 890 Hill Street. I urge the planning commission to follow the staff recommendation and deny this plan. I feel a responsibility to defend the adjacent neighborhood, my neighborhood cobble and all the other neighborhoods in Athens. Allowing a zoning exemption of this scale sets a dangerous precedent that jeopardizes the integrity of every neighborhood. The new plan is still five times larger than zoning allows. Bypassing established procedures and guidelines invites development that ignores the public's best interests, rendering regulations useless, and eroding the unique character of a neighborhood. History shows that intentional preservation is what helps maintains a city value. Savannah preserved its historic character through local zoning laws that protected the original 1733 city plan. I feel as if this development goes forward, we are at a tipping point where we will lose the quality of life and character of the neighborhood and open the door to more incompatible developments throughout Athens, leading to traffic, congestion, parking issues, noise, safety concerns, inefficient infrastructure, and increased costs for services. There are many unknowns that the plans did not address. We cannot afford to make a permanent decision based on an incomplete story. This project would also undermine years of public investment in making Prince Avenue safer and neighborhood friendly. The scaledown plans result in 120% more heartscape surface than the original, resulting in more issues, flooding, more heat, runoff, and added pressure to our already strained storm water system. I work on the front lines of sea level rise and erosion control issues around the world. I see how relying on outdated modeling and overburdened infrastructure directly endangers our communities as more frequent and intense storms are predicted throughout the country and Athens. We do not have much green space

left along Prince and this property is 5 acres. Why would we want the heartscape so much of it? Many cities are putting green space back. Savannah lost some of their green space in the 60s and have retrofitted it back. I visited Kurachiba, Brazil, which considered one of the world's best planned cities after being one of the worst. They value their citizens quality of life first and foremost when thinking of design, walkability, ease of moving through the city, efficient transportation, and they have the most green space of any city in South America. We can learn a lot from community's mistakes, improvements. The hotel will be six times the size of the president's house, lacking balance, scale, and there are many unknowns in restoration of the interior house. The green space buffer and the details of any preservation easement. This is a unique property and this is a chance to create something that will enhance the character of Athens and our quality of life for the long term. Let's all be patient and wait for a project that enhances our community. Athens deserves a development that respects its character than rather than one that overwhelms it. He shouldn't settle.

Thanks.

My name is Stephanie Lyn. I'm at 226 Hill Street. I'm speaking today because the square footage information for the proposed hotel at the president's house is misleading and the traffic impacts are being minimized at the expense of public safety. The applicant was told was told their original 87,000 square foot plan was far too large and their revised report claims it's 53,000, but that number excludes the restaurant. I heard a discussion about that early on, but they've been very deliberate in using the phrase hotel use to imply the restaurant shouldn't count because it's open to the public. But ACC code, your own zoning code, defines a hotel as including the restaurant, the meeting room, the utilities, and all similar services. Public access doesn't change that. By definition, the restaurant is part of the hotel, and that square footage counts towards their waiver. So, the true square footage is 58,000 square feet, almost six times the amount that's allowed. Leaving out the restaurant understates the scale of the project. Um, changing the math does not change reality as an oversized commercial project. I also want to highlight the impact on pedestrian safety you've heard about tonight. To accommodate patrons, the long-standing crosswalk and protected gores in front of CCSD will have to be removed to create that turn lane. That crosswalk has been in place for at least 15 years, and the gores were added in 2017 to protect pedestrians, the students, the parents, the staff, and the neighbors that use Prince Avenue. And that's a very active crosswalk. If you do that, the [clears throat] available space is limited at 100 feet or six cars before it conflicts with the westbound traffic turning into CCSD and about 240 feet or 14 car lengths before it conflicts with the Grady Cobb intersection. On peak weekends, the hotel will be at full capacity and that turn lane cannot handle that volume. CCSD's parking lot empties directly onto Prince Avenue, so any driver trying to turn left will be blocked with queuing traffic. They can't stop queuing. It's a

free road. And guess what? People are going to going to go to Hill Street to get out of the CCSD parking lot at 5:00 when all that traffic's coming through. And our neighborhood is already overburdened with that turnaround traffic. Traffic studies are an academic exercise. They may say the corridor can absorb more cars, but those studies rely on averages, not the event driven spikes that define Athens. Athens is a town built around special events. The CVB brags about it all the time. It's a major economic development tool here. So, of course, reality must be factored into those decisions that directly affect us.

I want to thank you for listening. You told them early on this project was way too big. They paid lip service to that by a 30% amount when you look at the 58,000 58,000 number. And the core issue is the size. Every concern you've heard tonight flows from the project is simply too large and far beyond what zoning allows. Until the scale is brought into alignment, the surrounding neighborhood, none of the secondary issues can be fixed. Thank you. Thank you. [clears throat]

Hi. Um Deborah Stanley. I live at 285 Renovista Avenue in Boulevard. When I first looked at the original design, I was shocked by the scale of the project and very concerned about issues such as the excavation for an underground parking garage. When the revised design came out, I was at first pleasantly surprised and I talked to others who having having given the new plan a quick look also thought it was much better. However, when you look at it more carefully, you see that the improvements are not always as they may seem. couch there. The whole thing is in preservation forward good neighbor language. While I'm glad that the buildings are smaller, the impervious service surface has not been reduced and storm water is already an issue uh in the neighborhood as you've heard. I'm relieved the developers removed the underground parking garage, but what we have instead is a large surface lot that pushes noise and lighting nearer to neighboring homes. This is an area of the plan where I think the design is underestimating needs and glossing over the impact on the Boulevard neighborhood. The plan calls for just one car per fourperson table in the restaurant and very strangely no staff parking except for one space for a manager. Where are all the staff going to park? The only answer seems to be on nearby streets in the Boulevard neighborhood. Presumably overflow parking for hotel and restaurant guests will be there, too. And we're not talking just cars, but large SUVs and trucks. There isn't room for them, and it's going to turn the neighboring streets into a circus. What the first plan and the revised plan combined to show is that there is no way to reasonably accommodate all of these vehicles without excessive impact on the neighborhood. And that's because of the fundamental problem underlying this entire project, which is that it's simply too big. Boulevard residents, especially those who live near the Tellley Grady House,

know that noise is going to be a problem and that it will be hard to enforce noise rules, especially during times such as football weekends. I am glad that this design does preserve green space in the back part of the property. We cannot at the same time complain about coyotes, deer, and other animals being pushed into our yards and continue to take away more and more green space, their habitat. Um, I am however concerned about the loss of some of the tree canopy for that same reason. Finally, this project is five times bigger than the current zoning permits. And to grant a change of zoning to allow it to be this large has alarming potential consequences in terms of precedent, especially for the Boulevard neighborhood, which is likely to see a number of commercial and government parcels sold and redeveloped in the coming years. And I'll just add that I live bang smack in the middle of all of those. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Sorry, this is my only phone. I can't pass it around to everybody. John Divine, 148 Virginia Avenue. Uh, thanks for allowing the opportunity to comment tonight. Um, my daughter is a student at Clark Central and um, it makes me proud that she's interested in the community. Um, she was talking about this project the other night with me. We live a few blocks away. Um, she knows I'm opposed. She was wondering why because it um would propose to include a new restaurant just a couple blocks from our house and she got excited about that.

Um, right. So, I I think that, you know, she kind of wanted to know more about why I was opposed um and why I wouldn't want a new restaurant. I would love a new restaurant. I would love a reasonably sized hotel. Um I think development is important. If we don't change, if we don't evolve, we stagnate. Um we end up um wishing that we had done things differently in the future. And you know, from my perspective as an AICP certified planner, um, with a with a long time under my belt doing this kind of work and a 23-y year Athens resident split between East Athens and Boulevard, um, I I think that it's clear that um, you know, there are a lot of positives with development, but the devil's the devil's in the details. um when I was a young planner working in this building uh over two decades ago um you know I I it was the case then and I think it's probably safe to say that it's still the case now that planning staff don't make an outright recommendation to deny lightly I I I think that I think that says a lot um professional staff specializing in tree protection grading and drainage utilities transportation planning and zoning all agree that the proposal meets a lot of the individual review criteria. Um but even in some the boxes checked across all of these areas of expertise um weren't enough of a mitigating factor to outweigh planning staff's overarching concern over the impacts of a massively oversized development. Um, I think it's um so unambiguous, so clearly stated that it shows up in bold, in italics, and in capital letters on page one of your report. The question isn't is a hotel the right

use for this property. The hotel would be fine on this property. I think um it's not even the question is is this a viable use? Um, but really, why should we give away a 500% waiver that will send money out of Athens? Um, I'd be willing to concede more for community-minded um, endeavors like a Boys and Girls Club or a critical mental health facility like Minutuchi Space or a library. Um, I'd love to see a restaurant or a hotel on this site, too. I think these are good ideas. People might like them, including my family and our guests who visit from out of town. Um, thankfully our zoning ordinance exists to help keep a level playing field and I'm glad the staff report recommends denial.

Yeah.

Hello, I'm Bis. I live at 738 Cub. My office is at 553 Prince Avenue, directly across the street from Fox to Prince. First, I'm grateful for your service. I know you're all volunteers. You sacrifice and you do your best to make good decisions for the city we all care about. I speak tonight to oppose the planned hotel located at the site of the historic president's house. Despite the revisions made by the developer and the design team, the scaleown plan is still far too large and wholly inappropriate use for that parcel of land in the midst of one of the town's oldest historic neighborhoods. the intrusion of a newly built 72- room corporate hotel. With all the bells, whistles, smells, noises, congestion, lights, [clears throat] excavation, yep, and many more nuisance of such a hospitality business that lacks enough space. All that's a recipe for irreparable harm to the established neighborhood and to the families who live there. Think about it. With inadequate parking on the site, it's pretty clear that the narrow neighborhood streets, pretty narrow, will become the de facto overflow parking for this bottleneck of a hotel. And its effect on the quality of life would be immediate and irreversible. Once it's built, it's there. There's not an eraser. People's ability to continue the peaceful enjoyment of their homes in a neighborhood where they've spent decades investing their time and resources is not something that could be brought back once the building's in the ground. I guess much of my objection comes down to a couple of factors. Some of technical points including the intricately related aspects of access to the property. one driveway, much wider, but one driveway. Traffic on Prince Avenue, parking for the customers and staff, and just the inevitable overall congestion of too much in intensive development and too small and hemmed in a piece of sensitive land in the midst of a thriving neighborhood. Beyond that, there's the character of our town. What makes Athens

special to so many people, residents and visitors alike? The character of Athens, where we are, really matters to people who love Athens. It's not like other places. We protect our historic resour resources, buildings and neighborhoods because clearly preservation is not only about buildings. It's about people living their lives, raising their kids, enjoying their homes and neighbors. But in conclusion, please deny this application [clears throat] for this large and unwieldy hotel at 570 Prince Avenue. As one of you stated, one of the planning commissioners stated from behind the rail the last time we all met on this project three months ago. Maybe this property is just not the right place for a large hotel. Amen. Good night. And except for one PS, which is right now, thank you respectfully for listening. The PS is I don't believe we made clear who Laura Benz represents beyond the group. Would everybody who Laura the attorney Where's Laura?

If you all would stand that way everybody in the room knows who you're speaking for. Uh you can find out more about us for those of you online at keep athenslocal.org. And uh in terms of excavation, does anybody think you can really build a 6,500 square foot modest storage basement? Thank you. Thank you. [laughter] And not excavate. And it's one and a half times the size of a basketball court. A basketball court's 4,500 ft. 6,500's not particularly modest. Anybody else speaking in opposition? [laughter]

Hi, I'm Carl Martin. I live at 797 North Pope Street. I just have a question for the commission which is take it back to the very beginning when uh CN zone was suggested to the applicant as the primary directive. Um, personally I believe believe that the property should remain single family residential, which is how it is historically for many many years. If it were to change zoning, I think uh CO would be the most contingent zoning appropriate. And so if you get a minute um during your discussion to you where CN zoning came from, it would be good to hear. I I had a a note to ask about sort of the history of the CN and the 10,000 square feet and that sort of. So I'll I'll add that to my

Thank you so much.

Anyone else in opportune moment for my printer to give out, so I'll be squinning at this. Uh my name is Blair Dormy. My wife Betsy and I live at 357 Hill Street about the from the proposed development. Uh [clears throat] before the last meeting, I I sent a letter to the planning commission uh regarding the sort of the economics of this. the the applicant has stated with the original proposal that the project would only work with 116 rooms and and now they're saying, "Well, the project will only work with 72 rooms." So, having uh with my wife done a small hotel renovation project in Vermont, not a very different kind of property, uh spending years getting it done and and doing it. I know that it can be done on a very different scale. Uh, I don't know that the problem is necessarily the hotel. I'm with Carl. I would much rather see it be a residence, but uh, if it's got to be a hotel, it is possible to do a much smaller scale uh, renovation and addition that would work. And I would say it would probably come in somewhere around 20 to 25 rooms. So, uh, as talented as the design team is and as powerful as the public relations firm is on this particular application, I don't think that they can force this square peg into the round hole. It's simply too large. They want to be patted on the

back because they've reduced from 116 rooms to 72 rooms, from 88,000 square feet to 58,000 square feet, basically from outrageous to merely preposterous. Good question.

So at a total square footage of 58,000 square feet, the revised proposal is almost six times the 10,000 square foot limit under the CN zoning. It would be one thing if they were asking for a few thousand square feet. It would be another if they asked for maybe half again as much. We could even talk about doubling it, but really six times. I mean, you have to ask yourself seriously. And I asked the commission here what I think is the salient question. What is the point of zoning? What is the point of our zoning ordinances if you're going to grant a waiver of that magnitude? It completely would completely eviscerate the code. Now, presumably our commission, our accounting commission and mayor and their staff gave some consideration to the ordinances. I'm sure they just studied them. They deliberated about them. They debated them and ultimately they enacted an ordinance that they thought was in the best interest of the community. And so I ask you now, you know, when we're seeing so many rules upended and set aside, what would be the effect of this? And I ask you to deny this application.

Anyone else? Yes. Just

Hello. My name is Mark Oel. live at 180 Amler Road. I feel I felt the need to to uh get up here because I have lots of friends who live in the area affected by this, but I live outside that zone. So, I wanted you all to hear a little bit from someone who's not right immediate in the area. Um, but you know, I've lived in Athens for going on 34 years. I consider this my home now. It's just I love the town and you know when I first heard about this it just blew my mind that talk of a hotel on narrow Prince Avenue after we just just went through the process of making a safe pedestrian zone and narrowing it and it's it's like what a hotel? I mean doesn't even it doesn't make sense to me. I I don't personally I don't think a hotel fits in any scale. just like I I'll echo Blair who said, you know, it seemed like, you know, some sort of uh residential or office seems like the best proposal proposal for it. Um you had mentioned how they spent two years working on this and

sorry, but [laughter] but he he had mentioned how spent two years working on this and be such a waste and nobody had done anything in the time. I drive by that house every day. House is not about to fall down. I don't feel like there's any rush to get it. It's still owned by the Board of Regents. They can maintain it till a better use is found for it. Um, I'll echo Beris' sentiment of just the characters. It it affects the character of the town. And Prince Prince Avenue to me as a longtime resident is like one of the jewels of the town. It really is. And you know they they I guess the capstone representative I'm not sure who who it was but when they were up here speaking earlier was saying oh it'd be like a boom to the localowned businesses in the area like she mentioned tender shots that may that that's shortsighted because I've been here long enough to see hey if if corporates move in when the corporations move in if they're successful mom and pops get killed. I own two local businesses in town. Um, and I always feel like I have a target on my back. Um, just, you know, it it if if if a hotel's there and successful, it's not going to help Henderhots in the long shot. And what's going to do is someone else is going to look at it and say, "Man, that place where Hendershots is at sure can be a cash cow for me." And they'll come in and buy it. and this will just open the dam to that on the Prince Avenue corridor. So, I just wanted to oppose it as someone who's outside as just a residential as an Athens resident outside the initial scope of the area. But thank you.

Anyone else?

Hi, my name is Peter Smith. I lived at 640 Cobb Street with my family, a short distance from the proposed site. Um, I just wanted to make one observation and forgive me if it's too simple an observation, but the the question that's the source of the observation is why are we really here? Why are we here tonight? Is it to evaluate this project? Yes. But why are we here for that purpose? And the answer is rather simple. The UJ is sitting on a prime piece of real estate. Its best use is its current use, but they elected to sell the property. Now, I can't fault the board of regents of the UG for that decision. perfectly within their rights to decide that they're gonna move the president to a new location. Take green space in the center of our town on what's now, mind you, a terrific pedestrian and bike friendly avenue, which is a project that took decades, not months or weeks or years to achieve. So, we're evaluating a project that is a direct result of the UDA's decision to sell this property to a buyer prepared to pay the highest price for it. That's why we're here. I don't want to forget that. You know, call me oldfashioned, but when you're a state university with resources like a master's program in historic preservation, [laughter] a master of urban planning and design, a bachelor of arts and graduate programs in landscape architecture and design. You would think the UG rather than just punting to this group of people to our community, this particular issue, might

bring a few resources to bear on its exit plan. Yeah,

this isn't the first project where the UG has turned a deaf ear to the city of Athens and Clark County. Our our interests as a community are broader than solving a developer's problem with how to jam a project into a space that doesn't want to tolerate it. and to go through iterations of a project when the whole thesis is wrong. Right? We're solving the UG's problem here.

I think you all ought to consider telling the UG, "Stop doing what you're doing. You're not a taxpayer." Everybody in this room is. We pay for everything from water to sewer to surface water management, waste removal, and frankly, we have the right to park our cars on our own residential streets without worry about whether congestion with staff. This is just wrong. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for your time and I appreciate the opposition within this group, this project. Anyone else? else to speak in opposition.

My name is Bruce Jordan. My husband and I live directly across the street from uh the president's house. And uh we love old homes, historic homes, and we're thankful that we were able to buy this home. And we just believe that homes should have a family in them. And to change the resoning to a business, I don't feel like it's right. It was built as a home and it should remain a residence. There are if it was advertised throughout the United States, I think there are people who could afford five million for the house and three million for the renovation kept in historical um with a historical guideline. And I don't think it was um advertised large enough for a family to move there. I know it sounds outrageous, but there are people who spend that much money on residents and um I we my husband has to parallel park on Prince Avenue. I have a little spa and we have a shared driveway and I am afraid that the um parallel parking will disappear. You can't park there anymore. But um we love living where we do and we love Athens and I just don't think the preone should be to anything but residential with historical guidelines and um I feel like there's a house

waiting for a lot of people. Thank you. Thank you for your time. To speak in opposition. Okay. Hearing none. Um I turn to the applicants. Have two minutes. I have a good

Okay. Good evening. I'm Julie Sers with Dillard Sillers and I'm a zoning attorney and we have heard a lot here tonight. Um I appreciate your patience and your thoughtful consideration. What I did not hear tonight, I heard a lot of people referencing five times six times the 10,000 square foot. Not a single person mentioned the fact that this lot is 42 times the minimum lot size for the CN district. We are not before you asking to fit a McMansion on a 5,000 square foot lot. The local design team thoughtfully reimagined the 72 room hotel on 219,000 square feet of land while preserving 60% for green space and landscaping. That is significant. That's not maxing out density on this very unique property that is special and it does deserve your consideration. not just looking at what our zoning code says in black and white because what the law says and what your zoning code says is that the law requires and your code requires a balance. It's a balance between the interest of promoting the public health, safety, and welfare. And that's a bunch of legal ease, but it's balancing that with the unrestricted use of property. That's our constitutional right is that we can use our property without restrictions. If there are going to be restrictions, they've got to be rationally related to certain things. We are not asking for an unrestricted use of the property. We're asking you to restrict it. Restrict it and force us to do what we say we're going to do. The

approval of this modified plan with the conditions that you have before you will allow for preservation, protection of the neighbors by tying the development to the site plan, and continue the hospitality tradition that is so deeply rooted in the president's home and the special property. And we appreciate your consideration. I'm here to answer your questions. Okay. So, we will take it to the side of the mail. Um, I have some questions that I just want to get kind of cleared out if you Okay, I'm just going to ask some questions and then we'll just go around. Um, I wanted the applicant to talk Well, okay. First off, I want to talk about the um what happens when we have a government property that goes from government to a private owner and how that change happens, how we select zoning and and I wanted to get a bit of like some more context as to how the 10,000 square foot restriction came up. Um, and for me, my reference is when I think of like a residential zone. Um, for example, if I were to build a house on my lot, it would be 65% lot coverage. So, it was a percentage of the lot, whereas here is a strict this is the the size that we're to maybe talk. Could you give us a little bit of context? That's two things.

Sorry. That's all right. I just want to make sure it's not three. I'm done with Yeah.

All right. Two is good. Um, when we have governments own property that is going to move from a government entity into private hands, um, in order for that private entity to know what they can do legally with the property, it has to shift into a zoning category that outlines the parameters for development. Um, when that happens, we planning staff usually meet with that prospective buyer. This situation is not atypical where you have the government entity that allows for someone else to represent the request for the reszone on their behalf as a condition of the sale. Um, in that discussion, what we look at is the context of the location of the property, like what other zoning is around it. We look at the character of the um, if it's on a corridor, what's the character of that corridor? We look at [clears throat] the available infrastructure, not just transportation, but water and sewer and storm water. Um and then then we entertain the notion of what are you looking to develop the property with and the more specific the better because then we can have a more intelligent conversation about what zones would accommodate that specific use. So in this instance that's exactly the pattern of conversation that we had with the applicant. U the question was raised why not I think commercial general why not commercial downtown um why not commercial office. So the use that was proposed was always focusing on the hotel function. Um correctly CG and CD allow for hotel byite permitted no cap other than what the the zone would allow for lot coverage and setbacks and building height. Um, the context of this location is very much dissimilar from CG, which is what you find on our major corridors, Atlanta Highway, Commerce Road, Lexington Highway, that type of thing. And it's very different than commercial

downtown. There is an edge to our downtown zone. And with a couple rare exceptions, what we've looked at is the downtown plus the properties just along the edge. This is just beyond that. Um, what we do have in that area are commercial office and commercial neighborhood. And in looking at what our use table will allow for, the commercial office zone does not allow for hotels or motel and [clears throat] so it was not in play for the discussion for the use the applicant was interested in developing. So that by default put us into commercial neighborhood which did allow for the 10,000 square feet. So question number two, why 10,000 square feet? Uh when that particular piece of code was written in 2000 2001, what we were trying to do was look again contextually where do we have commercial neighborhood zoning? What is the typical size of those lots? Where what kind of location are they in? And is it unreasonable to think that a hotel use could locate on a commercial neighborhood zone piece of property given that they're on in town corridors. Um when drafting this piece of ordinance, I think our finding was a hotel close to these locations is is not an inappropriate use. The question became scale and rather than look at a percentage like we do with lot coverage and some other things. The thinking was 10,000 square feet would accommodate a hotel that would be scaled for the typical lot size and placement that you'd find for commercial neighborhood zoned land. Um so when you think of those and and we had a map up earlier that I think is a little bit helpful. You can start to see that the parcel size of a zoned commercial neighborhood in many instances is much much smaller than what is under consideration

tonight. So the 10,000 square feet was anticipated for a smaller lot. Yeah, we didn't anticipate UG selling because it was

there you are. Um, I also had a question about storm water management and I don't know if Josh would like to speak to that or if if there was I I feel like there's just been some discussion about storm water management. I'm going to be honest, even as someone who's been on the planning commission for a while. I in the last couple years realize new developments like this have to figure out storm water and not make the situation worse um when they have a new development. So, I wanted to ask the applicant to talk a bit about the storm water management plan and um and the aging infrastructure along Prince Avenue and how all of that is working out. Is that appropriate? Is that appropriate? I would love [laughter] to have you. Yeah, I'm happy to

Yes. come up and tell us about storm water. [laughter] Um for the record. I will. Thank you. Dash Coons. I live at 205 Clover Street. Um, work with Coons Environmental Design. Speak up. Can't hear you. I'm sorry. We can't hear you. Speak up, please.

Josh Coons, 205 Clover Street. I work with Coons Environmental Design and we are supporting uh Aralab on this effort and the site and uh storm water management. So, ready? Okay. I'll try to speak up. I apologize. I'm a little soft spoken by nature. Um uh I think just to start from the beginning if that's okay. New developments are required to meet the storm water management ordinance of Athens clar county. We are not looking for any waiverss from those ordinances or anything like that. The idea um not the idea the requirement is that we would meet the storm water management requirements. Um those requirements uh require either water quality or runoff reduction for some of the smaller storms as well as um controlling the rate of runoff for the larger storms. Um somebody referenced earlier the 100redyear storm. The um ordinance only requires you to work up to the 25-year storm. we as a best practice um have started designing to the hundred-year storm because that's the nature of what's going on. Um it's not more water, it's the same water happening more quickly and that's what's really causing a problem um in a lot of our sites. So that's the background for this project in particular. Uh the previous submitt when it did have the underground parking sort of forced the um the elevation that we would collect water to be much lower than what can make it to Prince Avenue. Um and that forced a potential easement to Grady where we would outfall into the Grady stormwater corridor. Um it the Grady corridor and the tributary that runs through Boulevard um is a known

problem for flooding. That's totally accurate. The city installed a pipe um underneath the boulevard to try to deal with some of that and it still has issues. Um the benefit of removing the underground parking was that they brought all our surfaces back up to grade. At that point, when you're out on the property, you can see that the property is higher in the back and flows towards Prince Avenue. And so that gives us the option now to outfall towards Prince Avenue. um to meet the ordinance and some of the runoff requirements. Um there's a couple ways that you can do that. What we've talked about internally is using porous pavement within the majority of this new surface lot. And just by using the por pavement, we are getting back to within 5,000 square feet of the existing imperous coverage. That's how much of a of a um a difference that makes. And to put that into actual numbers, and these are on the plans, um the existing impervious is about 42,000 square feet total. Um the total for the new development that's on the screen now is 92,000 and there's about 45,000 square feet of impervious surface that we have calculated. Um the result of that when you put it into the numbers that we review with um public works and storm water conversation is a runoff rate. And the existing site right now um without anything being done has a runoff rate for the 100redyear storm of 18 cubic feet per second. In this scenario with porest parking um we are at 19 cubic feet per second. we are that close. Um, so it only takes a little bit of underground detention to actually slow that water down a little

bit more and meet that 18 cubic foot per second um runoff rate. So that's part of the equation. I want to stop. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Okay. For for us that makes sense, but don't hesitate to ask a question. Um [clears throat] but relative to the aging infrastructure, that's the other side of this equation. Um we can meet that requirement, but we also have to consider where water's going downstream. Um the Grady Corridor is fragile. We're aware that and this is a good move getting it to Prince. The tributary that runs um parallel to Palaski Street is also fragile. Um and we know that from the work that we did with Emanuel Episcopal next door a long time ago. um this outfall would actually this water would drain to um the area inlet that is at Pope and Prince and there's a pipe there that actually takes it across Prince over to the Tanger Creek corridor that is um coming off of Broad Street which of all three of those tributaries because of the Rambler and some of the other development that's happened down there in [clears throat] addition to everything that UG has further downstream is probably the most stable of all of these tributaries. And so what we discussed with um Athens Clark County Public Works after the initial concern for um the storm water going to Grady and the changes to the project that allowed us to get back up to the surface was um using porous pavement to get the runoff rate down, using subsurface detention to be able to control that runoff rate. um promoting infiltration, which is a requirement, but doing so at a scale beyond the minimum requirements uh by the ordinance, and then looking at slowing the water down even more through enlarging the detention system to make sure that the downstream infrastructure could accept this water. Um [clears throat] so that's what we reviewed with them. It doesn't manifest itself as a a proper plan right now.

That's completely accurate. folks who say it's that they didn't receive one. Um we didn't submit one because it's technically not required, but we wanted to make sure that um we had a plan in place that could be approved if the use was approved. Um for the record, we did reach out to um the Cob neighborhood, the former chair, wasn't Liz, I apologize. Maggie, Maggie Taylor,

um as well as Jason Taylor, the former um to let them know that if they had any questions about the site and storm water in particular, we'd be happy to answer them. Um we did speak with Maggie about this. Never heard from [clears throat] Jason, but I might have been speaking to the wrong person since Mr. Thompson was here tonight. Um but that's what we have um and what we've discussed. Um I don't want to speak on behalf of Capstone, but I think that they have committed to the port payment. That's the biggest side of this to make a big difference. Um those are the type of things that um I think you know can become binding as you guys discuss this. But it's kind of a no-brainer um for most developments these days to to work in some of these low impact development techniques. Make sure that um we're not only [clears throat] meeting the ordinance but going beyond the minimum requirements ordinance given the particular nature of this area and some of the infrastructure pricing

that help. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. I feel much more clear about the situation. Yeah, y'all have who wants to start with questions? [clears throat]

I'll start out, I guess. I just have a couple points to make, I guess, on how I'm thinking about this. Um, first of all, with the zoning request, um, to shift from government to a commercial neighborhood, you know, after sitting here and looking at it for a while, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about kind of drawing that commercial zoning all the way back to the back of that property. You know, if we had just seen an application for like just the back two acres, we would never zone that commercial because it's completely surrounded by residential. And when looking at kind of like where a commercial neighborhood does exist along Prince Avenue, it's never that far deep away from Prince Avenue. So I think that's one of my concerns is it's really pulling that commercial zoning really deep into the neighborhoods. Um I would kind of think that commercial zoning would maybe be best to end kind of where the existing structures are. That would put it more in line with other commercial zoning on that street. I know that's not possible because it's all one parcel, but that's what kind of makes the most sense to me. So, I'm kind of hesitant about the reasoning itself. I am also in terms of the waiver. Uh before I said I thought it was, you know, huge, hugely too much, the 80 something,000. I still think what it is is way too much. I would be in favor of something more in like the 20,000 square feet range, but currently at this, I think it's still um just way too big for me to support. And that's my thoughts.

Yeah. [clears throat] Um, okay. First, just responding to what I just heard. Um, if this were like by right resoning, I would see your point on it being uh unusual or strange to zone commercial all the way back. But because it's a master plan development, we're not we're not really talking about a commercial use going that far back. We're talking about green space in that backtail and commercial use towards the front and a new reszoning application if anything about that were to change. Um but that that that was my immediate thought related to that. Um I had a question for you. Um so uh uh and and Kristen hit on on some of the the beginnings of this thought um for me which is the Y 10,000 square foot limit. You mentioned reasoning being related to the typical lot size and placement of lots in a commercial neighborhood area. This seems like an atypical lot size and placement, right? Um, and so this is the kind of situation where waiverss would make sense as a general idea, right? Like when you have a a weird looking lot.

Correct. That's that's why the provisions in the code. Yes. Yes. Okay. Cool. And so am I am I understanding it? Am I am I understanding it right that it's the size of the waiver that's being requested that just is too much? You mean from staff's standpoint? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's that scale issue. Correct. Okay. And along [clears throat] with the scale, I guess my general question is what is wrong with the scale? Like what from staff's perspective, what is the problem? Well, okay. So, uh

I I so I understand that it is big. Why is that bad? All right. So again, from staff's review, we we tend to be pretty black and white with what the code gives us to deal with. Um where the code gives us latitude, we will look for daylight through that latitude. This instance, when we have a hard number, we don't have that same daylight that we have in other code provisions. So we have a hard cap of 10,000 and without it's difficult for staff to recommend going above a hard cap that's needed like that

without justification through some sort of hardship or some other unique circumstance that really drives that point home. And then when we do look at it um what we're looking for is the minimum amount. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Totally. Totally. Um, so, so from from what you just said, like any waiver would be a hard a hard cell because it is this hard cap as it's laid out in the code. Yeah, with the any waiver with the hotel room specifically thing, right? Okay, cool. That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.

Um, I have a question for the applicant. um which is is there any particular so I'm I'm looking at um from the staff report the hotel area to hotel room ratio in these um uh nearby hotels and it seems like the the room to hotel area for this hotel is way bigger than most of the other comparable hotels and I was just curious if there's a explanation that you could Is there any particular special circumstance or reason why the ratio would be so high for this hotel? I think I can answer that. Do I need to go up? Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Okay. For for microphone purposes. Um I think there's a couple reasons. Um one is this is more of a luxury hotel.

So everything's a little bit bigger. You know, guest rooms are a little bit bigger. There is a fitness room included on the ground floor for guests. So those kinds of amenities inflate things a little bit. make it a nicer hotel. Um, but also, as I mentioned during my presentation, just the incorporation of the historic spaces to inflate that number because we're we're basically preserving that whole entire first floor of the president's house as it is and we don't really need that for the hotel, but it's good preservation. So, it's really inflating those numbers. Um, so that's largely why

Oh, that makes sense. Thank you. Um I might have one more question for staff. Um and so I understand that uh that there's no limitation on square foot associated with in in commercial neighborhood zoning with um multif family dwellings. [clears throat] So if this like same plan were apartments instead of hotel rooms that would be within reason for the code that's too big of a hypothetical I can I mean apples to oranges [clears throat] but

um are you saying if it were zoned commercial neighborhood and developed with multif family? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So one thing to understand the limitations that come along with that are as code's written today no ground floor residential. So that would require a ground floor commercial use before you did you know the residential the residential would have to be on second floor or above um what we'd be working with there because they are by uses without any hard limitation like we have with the hotel use. We'd be looking at lot coverage, building height, and setbacks to create an envelope for the maximum of what could yield out of that property.

So, commercial neighborhood zoning allows for 75% lot coverage. That's correct. I think it's 65% in commercial office. I'm looking my friends from staff. Yes, 75%. Yeah. So, 75% lock coverage, 65 foot building height, setbacks of 6 to 10 feet. um a conserved canopy requirement of 15%. You you get the picture. The envelope of potential structure is very large when you don't have those other restrictions to hem it in. Does that help?

Absolutely. Thank you. Um if I had any more comments. Um, I will say uh and my so in in summary for me um I think that the current use of this property is uh I I wouldn't say that the current use of this property is the best use. I do not think a mansion on one of our uh you know most accessible streets is necessarily the best thing for everyone. Um, I think it's better for many people to enjoy accessible land, prime real estate in Athens as opposed to one multi-millionaire family or so. That being said, I do appreciate where your staff is coming from uh and the importance of staying within reason uh with waiverss and such. And so I'm leaning against support of this project because of how significant these differences are.

Go to Mike and listen.

I just wanted to say one thing to respond to what Sarah said to what I said and that's a good point. Um you know about the size of the lot. kind of what I was thinking again just now is that you know if we take I kind of think that they got lucky and have this giant lot you know because it is a very unique shape but I don't think that that necessarily work in favor of a building a bigger building in this case because I mean doing that would just say that like you could go in and buy 10 houses combine them into five acres and then yay now I get to build something big too you know so I think that like it should still be kept in scale with the surrounding areas and should be taken into consideration like all residential zoning around it. Um, so yeah, so I don't think that the size alone of having all these extra acres in the pack should give them bigger options. That's it.

I've got one question for Lori if you don't mind. Um, and then I'll be quiet and then I'll be asked to talk. Yeah. But and and it may be in the report. I've read a lot and I've read it a lot. What is do you have the square footage footprint of the new hotel portion and the square footage footprint of the current house?

That would be on the site plan summary. I don't have it immediately. Um, I really need my glasses for this. Yeah. Um, bear with me. Coverage is 11,000 square feet. Coverage is 11,50.

Yeah. The proposed proposed new building is 15,000. Proposed new buildings are 15,528 square feet footprint. Say that again. The proposed new building footprint is 15,528 square feet. Okay. Just the building, not the parking lot. Just the building. Um and [clears throat] then the current existing uh footprint for just the building is 11,91 square feet. Okay. And three buildings. Yeah. Yes, as building structures in total,

right? Okay. And then the height, if I understood right, the height of the new building is about 8 feet shorter than the height of the current the historic building a little like I don't remember exactly 36. Yeah, I don't want to say 38. Yeah. But it's definitely lower and it's it's cited in the elevations. I think it's 38 feet total in those dimension strings. Yeah, I was Yeah, it's in both. You can compare right there. The item was I think it was versus 38 or something.

Yeah, that sounds right. Okay. Because I keep hearing five times bigger and I'm not seeing it in the materials that I was given. So, I'm trying to figure out where I'm wrong. Um, so the understand total square footage too of what we're saying hotel views. No, I understand that part. Uh, but I'm also square footage when you're looking at something is really mean anything at height, width, how close, all of that [laughter] sounded. So, I just want to make sure I was catching. So, thank you. That's good for me at the moment. questions for staff. Does this house have any

uh historic designation that gives it any preservation teeth? Is there any presently right now? No.

We to that point I actually had a question about that. Could I actually ask the applicant to talk about the um I know that we as a we are not a preservation body, but like I'm just curious from the sale of the the standpoint of the land sale and the um like what's going on with that is is there my understanding is the property has to have a conferation easement. I'd like the the the applicant to talk a bit about what's going on with that. Yeah, the contract with the board of regents. You've been up here. Oh, my name's Jeff Payne. Um, 340 just Parkway, Gainesville. Thank you.

Our contract with the board of regents requires that we place an easement on there when we close simultaneously with close a facade easement. A facade easement which would include the front gardens and the facade of the house. And we're including those rear structures which are not necessarily part of their requirement but at our position we're doing that. And would that be with the Georgia Trust? Are you still talking with an organization that would do that? We're negotiating with the Georgia Trust right now on the terms of how to structure um are you planning on seeking any historic tax credits as part of the project?

If we're eligible, we will. We've submitted a part one to the National Park Service. The state uh stroke preservation group approved it. Once that's done, then we'll go back with the part two, which will have, you know, whatever's approved by um Athens Clark County to see get their input on that. Okay.

Have a question about the summary recommendation. Um it mentions that UG president house is subject of a private redevelopment proposal and the government zoning a future land use designation would not be compatible with a non-governmental owner. But then on page four it says that the business designation non-governmental properties along Prince so the staff deems a request to be compatible. Can you just clarify it a little for me? I I think what we're getting at is with the change that would be compatible. Okay.

If if that's worded a little wonky, I apologize. But that you know what's being requested would be compatible with the future land use. I am a little confused by that. Like why why didn't this already have a main street that has future land use designation? So the practice that the practice that we've had with the creation of the future land use map in in 1999 and we've kind of continued that until just recently is when we had a known government entity that held on to a piece of property. We did not assign it with any other future land use category other than government just to sort of preserve options.

Typically government owned properties don't change hands that often and so they tend to live to the next future land use map. It's also a way to kind of demonstrate something with quick reference, eyeball test, and looking at that map to understand that's a government owned property. Okay. Yeah. It doesn't it it creates more confusion to put some other category on it that has this relationship with a bunch of zoning districts that would not be able to apply to the government owns government owned piece of land.

And will that stay the same with the new future the proposed future use map? That is one of the things that if you remember when y'all were looking at it, one of the proposals with the new future land use map is to look at context and not solely at ownership. And so we do have governmentowned parcels that would, for example, that would be designated as downtown. Government owned parcels that would be designated for parks and you know some other categories rather than that straight blue government designation. Okay. I guess I think that um I I think this project has a lot of good things about it. I think one of the arguments that the developer made that I that really resonates with me is like I couldn't agree with you more Sarah. I don't the last thing I'm interested in this being is a single family mansion. Like I have no interest in that. Um I do sort of feel like a place like this is sort of a public resource um cultural resource and and I sort of like the developers argument that a hotel use is actually compatible with historic preservation in the sense that it generates the revenue that's needed to maintain a place like this. There's probably some deferred maintenance. There's probably some fairly significant infrastructure issues and so sort of understand the way development works enough to know that something like that might be necessary to sort of generate what is needed to support the property. Um, that being said, I I don't know if I have a conclusion there, just that that I think that's a strong argument. I think uh I also have a problem with the scale. Um, I don't really I'm this being main street business makes perfectly perfect

sense to me as far as a future land use map goes. Um, I I don't see this as integral to the neighborhood as maybe the neighbors do. I see it as a corridor property. Um, that being said, I think what the neighbors say is also important. I hope everyone goes to the actual county commission meeting. Um, because we're just making a recommendation. But, um, I don't know. I got a lot to say, but I I I don't know if I have anything new. I don't know if I have anything new to say. I think everyone made really good points. I think the point about um UGA kind of dumping this problem on us is is true. Um or certainly I agree with that opinion. So um I don't really know what to do. I'm kind of interested to see what else we have to say here tonight.

Let's start with Sarah and work out. Okay. Well, um uh while uh this in no no way needs to cut off discussion um uh but yeah, with the puzzlement of zoning categories, there doesn't seem to be any sort of zoning category that makes sense here that under our current code allows a hotel of this size. Um I would like to make a motion to recommend denial. Is there a second? I'll second that. Okay. Now, do you all want to allies discussion? Yes. You want some discussion? Okay. Is that a future? Are we voting twice?

We are two votes tonight. First there was it wasn't okay. Um I thought Okay. Um Okay. Then um that is that is just for the zoning. So we need to do the picture. You got to do them both the same. Future future land use would come first. Okay. Second motion for the zoning actions and procedurally. Yeah. A future land use recommendation can be approved. Yeah. Separate from the zoning. What's unique here is of course we still have that governmentowned property.

So I'm just putting that on the table. There's nothing legally that says that a government-owned piece of property can't have a non-governmental future land use designation. It just hasn't been our practice. Okay. Um, in that case, I would like to make two motions. First, I would like to make a motion to recommend approval of the future land use change to Main Street Business. And second, I would like to make a motion to recommend denial of the zoning request. While I appreciate your We got to do a vote. We got to do a vote. Vote. Yeah. We do one at a time. Okay. First the first motion then approval main street business.

So you have a motion to approve future land use change to main street business. Okay. Do I have a second? I'll second that. Okay. Um All right. We have discussion discussion on that for land use. Okay. All right. Let's do a voice vote. Oh, voice vote. Not not roll. Sorry. Um yes. Harrisford. Yes. Pass. Yes. Sams, yes. Sanders, yes. Lord,

no. That is five. Yay. One nay passes just over there being a contrarian. Okay. Okay. So now I would like to make a motion to recommend denial of the zoning request. Okay. Have a second. Second. Okay. Now would like to have any discussion about that motion.

Alex. Okay. Um, I have slept with this and awakened with it and it feels like for months as well. Uh, I don't live in the neighborhood. I grew up with Prince Avenue being a major part of my life. uh what it was the residential end uh the uh business end and I've seen it go for 60 years basically I turned 61 on Saturday by the way um so uh I don't remember my first year uh one year old on Prince but I'm I remember being I've seen where things have gone there the people that have saved the houses there I've talked the people that have saved the houses there. Um, several houses too late. But, um, this it was brought up, a lot of people have said, and I'm not addressing them, but I'm addressing the fact that people are like, "Well, the zoning says this, so why does it why are we talking about it?" The last thing we want, and this will not shock most of y'all when I say this, is the government clamping down on every single thing so hard that they no longer have to listen. So, this body exists to loosen it up a little bit, to work through some of this so that the voting body, the mayor and commission has an opportunity to not only read all of this and whatever's in their packet, but to watch the video of this meeting, to read the transcripts. Uh, as I understand, uh, they're allowed to talk to us if they want to. Um, it's a process and it's a very important process. And listening to each and every one of y'all, um, I was at an event

earlier today and people that knew I was on the planning commission trying to get me to what are you going to do? And I'm like, I'm not telling you here, but uh, and I always, like I say, I'm at least only 75% in the direction of a yes or no vote or denial or approval. I always rely on this body and I rely on what people come up here and say. Um I, you know, traffic or too big and all that. I'm I'm listening for something I haven't heard or read yet. I'm listening for that piece of information that moves those final details in in some sort of order. So, um this is a this is one of the more unique pieces of property we've had to deal with. the problem the the number one problem and I want to going to back [clears throat] this up in another direction um is the price of the property the Boys and Girls Club it was just mentioned here general and and that would all that would be wonderful they can't afford it uh I can't afford it it's it's extremely expensive and then when you pay the $5 million you got to fix it was supposedly $2 million worth of work I will guarantee you that's 3.5 5 million worth of work that's got to happen to that house.

Um, so then there's that. And so that makes it even more unique. It is a beautiful house, but if you look closely at that house and closely at the Taylor Grady house, you will see how different they are. Greek Revival is [clears throat] not one one style and one style only. The number of columns, the type of columns, the the windows, everything is is different and unique. That house has to be saved and there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be saved. The government can mow it down tomorrow and they're not likely to do it. The University of Georgia does a fantastic job with rehabilitation and uh of its own property when it's in use mostly on campus. Uh they do a great job and put a lot of money into that uh and into those buildings. So I'm not knocking their efforts on preservation. Um, but at the same time, I always I kind of say around here, UG is is basically the ocean for Athens, Georgia. It is why people come here. It I'm in real estate. I don't get checks from UG, but I know where those checks come from that come to me eventually. It has a lot to do with that. So, we can't get angry at UG for what they do every time. It's like yelling at the ocean when the hinges on your doors rust. It just it's just the way it is. And so UG is big and powerful. I do not agree with them selling this property. I wish they wouldn't. And early on before it ever hit the market. I talked to them, very high up people, not even in Athens, about this. And it was just a done deal. They're going to sell it. That's their business. That was mentioned here earlier. They're going to do it. You can't fight it. It's happening. So now we we're left with I mean we are left with the problem here. What do we do? Um what happens?

So not to just take the entire night on this but I in in struggling like we all do because it just sounds so odd. I have I have not hated this design. I think it is designed well. I can't see the five times bigger it. And that's why I asked the questions about the footprint. It's not showing up. I was over there today trying to figure it out. And if you you can take your Google map out right now. You can go to the Lynen House. The museum on the back of the Lynen house is humongous compared to this. It's huge. So out of scale with that house, but that's okay. it it's welldesigned. It's bigger and it helps to save that house. The house that my uh my grandmother's mother lived there. She used a Lynon. That was hers at one point or at least her families. So, I'm cool with it. It's okay. There's some things that just are going to be out of scale in order to save. The other thing I know is once that house is bought and fixed up and brought up to scale, the president's house itself, it is going to consider is going to continue to try to rot and and break down faster than money can be put back into it. There is no end to that. It is a deep vast river. Historic houses that large are. And I partially know this because I was on the board of the the new board of the Taylor Grady House when we got in and got that going. An enormous amount of money goes into that and things are always taking something. So something has got to be plugged into that property to pay for all of that. Um

it's not by business that he or I shouldn't say he but that capstone went from 116 to 72. uh rooms. I don't I I don't know much about running hotels, but I can add up what rooms cost, how this I I would I would caution uh Capstone to make sure that math is good and that if this project is uh does go forward that you actually have the money to do it because it is it is going to cost a lot. The design I'll just try to end it on this. The design of the new building, even the original one, was extremely impressive to me how it scaled the look down. And the current one does the same. I'm the guy, the sole person that voted against an RM2 in in the neighborhood in five points. And part of what I didn't like is of course that wasn't a PD so they could actually design anything they wanted but they were coming all on top of the road and all up higher. Uh that was what they were asking to do plus more bedrooms. But here it's a it is a plan development. There is nothing in the back in the far back. I've gone and tried to touch the h the houses that the hotel portion touches that are family residential is not that high compared to that long tail as you I think said that's where all the residential is and and touches and that cannot be changed to verify that they can't go in and put in a an outouse on that property without coming through the entire system again. It cannot be touched, so it's protected. Uh the buildings to the left of it, that's

uh rental properties. I drove through it. And just to confirm, because I'm looking at the map, I'm looking from the front. It's deceiving, but you go back in there and it is residential. Appears to be I don't know. I didn't wait to look, but uh student housing. It's those kind of student housing cottages. It's all around over there. Then you've got the the um the apartments. Anyway, uh I guess to conclude that I'm I am right now leaning toward a a vote to approve and um I just I'm I'm trying not to do it and I know how mad people will be at me, but I am having a hard time finding anything that this is doing and and all of the concessions that they're giving that that can talk me out doing this.

Thank you.

I'm just going to add my two cents and not only go to tie, but I I don't know if I could say it better than Mr. said it, but like every time I think of what are we going to what else could we put on the property, right, I get angry because we shouldn't be the ones that have to figure this out. This, you're right, like UG created a mess and just dropped it in our laps. So boo on UG for like making this music problem, putting neighbors against neighbors and making us figure this out when they have experts and they had so much time to like there's no reason to sell it right now. Um I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm just annoyed that they just dropped the ball and walked away and left us with the best cleanup. So, um I just wanted that said in an open meeting. Um anybody else otherwise I'll call a vote.

All right. All right. We're going to do it. Roll call. Okay. So, the motion that's on the table is for denial made by Garing, seconded by Sanders. Denial of the reszone as requested. So a yes vote is in support of the denial. Yes. Is a support of denial. Yes. Garing. Yes. Sanders. Yes. Marisford. Yes. Pass. Yes. Sams. No. Lord. Yes.

Five. Yes. One. No. Motion passes. We take a break.

Anyway, we're all going home.

All right, let's get back to it. All right, folks. Calling the troops. All right. Oh, Alex, you lost Alex. All right. Getting back to it. Oh, Alex just left. All right.

I didn't bring it. You legally losing my law. I mean, there's no cover, so all right. All right. Good, Bruce. I'm sorry. Yes. No, you're good. All right. New business. 210 East Clover Avenue, unit 2.

All right. Good evening. Uh, this is the staff presentation for 210 East Clover Hurst Avenue, unit number two, special use permit, 2025 071343. So, the request is for a special use for a commercial short-term rental in a mixed density residential RM1 zone. Um, the occupancy proposed is for no more than four individuals each. Um, I will note at the beginning of this um that this application and the one that will follow it were both submitted prior to the most recently adopted mayor and commission uh ordinance for short-term rentals uh in mixed density residential zones. Under the new ordinances, a special special use permit application um would not be permitted. However, as this application was received prior to that ordinance being adopted, it is following the previous set of rules like the other commercial short-term rentals in RM zones that y'all have seen before. So, just wanted to get that out. I'll repeat it when we get into the next item, but just wanted to lay that out first. Here's an aerial photograph of the uh unit in question. It is part of a larger condominium development. This is the current future land use which is traditional neighborhood that is proposed to remain. This is the current zoning which is RM1. As you can see uh the special use would be indicated with the triangle. Uh as you can see on uh here is an environmental areas map. There are none to speak of in the area. Uh this is the applicant provided site plan again showing you where that unit is located. Here are some elevations provided by the applicant uh showing the location of the unit in question and available parking there. Staff recommendation um sort of in concert with our other our other uh proposals in RM zones for commercial

short-term rentals is denial. Um staff finds it to be incompatible with the 2023 comprehensive plan uh due to removal of housing from the market. Um in general staff does find it to be compatible with the future land use map, the zoning map and uh previous ordinance. Uh but staff also finds it does not meet all the special use criteria uh in terms specifically in terms of the impact on the neighborhood's character with removal of uh long-term residential units in favor of uh commercial short-term rental. Uh and in addition uh there's some other things that we've also discussed in the past regarding commercial short-term rentals. Um again, special use criteria are largely met in isolation. However, cumulative effect of commercial short-term rentals put stress on the housing market and again this is uh reason for staff recommendation of and that concludes the staff.

Thank you. Now we'll hear from the applicant.

Thank you. Good evening. My name is Wayne Logan. I'm joined here by my wife Abby. We own the property here. We live our primary residence is 1062 Reedsboro Road, Williams, Georgia. You won't know where that is. So, it's near Griffin. Uh if that helps. And uh as we read the staff recommendation, uh it appears I actually had an application if you read each of the sections, it checks all the applicable boxes for residency and approval of this. [clears throat]

uh primary reason we read for this staff recommendation of denial is kind of the aggregate weight of all the STRs the Athens area as they you know as you face the charge that you have that we read from the mail council to reduce the or increase the affordable housing in the area. So, uh, it's kind of hard for us to debate, but I think what we can do is to talk to you a little bit about, uh, our condo because not much information is really given about our condo, how we use it, and and, uh, so we'd like to offer that perhaps as a background as you consider our application. Uh, we hope there'd be some latitude for people that have operated the STR in a responsible way for a period of time. So, I'll give you some of that background here. We've owned this condo since March 2010 and we bought it for our kids to go through UG, which they did. And uh after they graduated, we actually had a young man was a PhD family friend, PhD uh student at Georgia recommend rented for a couple years. 2020 COVID everything going on, we decided to keep it for a second residence and not offer it for long-term housing. And so we've really continued to use the the condo for long-term uh for entertainment. Our kids now are grown, but they use it for uh certainly athletic events, concerts. Uh my girls both require a continued education. They take that at Athens so they can continue to enjoy Athens. And Abby and I, we're going to a Rock Lobsters hockey game tomorrow night, which is one of the first uh hockey games I think Abby's ever been to, and I've only been through a few. So, we're really looking forward to that. So, we use this a lot. When you have a uh you

know, second residence, really long-term renters don't fit in well with that, but short-term rental does. So, in 2021, we turned this over to kind of start to use it, convert it to an Airbnb property. And uh Airbnb met our needs in a lot of ways, matching up the the uh renters with us with uh you know, helping us in a lot of different ways. And one of the things it did, it collected fees. So, if we hadn't owed anybody anything, Airbnb would take that, dispense it out, which I think they have in the cases of Athens, Clark County. the uh much discussion has been made that I've read not only in the Athens press, the Athens area, but Savannah and several other places about the negative impacts of short-term rentals. And I'd like to just say a couple things positive about short-term rentals. Number one, we prefer short-term rentals. We go to a place. It's our number one choice over a motel hotel. people, you know, in our in our mind, in our experience, if you have a good short-term rental when you're making a a trip, what it adds to the experience of the trip. That's what we've tried to do with our short-term rental. Number one, now we picked it out. We picked it out because it was super convenient to UG and it remains super con convenient to UG and uh, you know, so we we really want to uh kind of keep that. We also offer parking which as we've heard before is Athens gold near as I can tell. If you got good parking that's gold in a environment. Uh so we look at you know who we've tried to rent to and we've kind of stumbled into kind of a demographic and it's mainly people attending UG events but our renters usually are parents. Parents moving kids into the dorms down the street, parents moving kids out of

the dorms down the street. parents visiting their kids in the area. Uh we're pleasantly surprised by the number of summer camps that are around by offer by UG and our summers are pretty darn busy because all these parrots coming in and and you know taking advantage of the condo during summer camps. Uh we have alumni returning for different events. Number one for people we like returned several times. Uh some ladies uh returned for coral concerts. We had a young man very charming who maybe he's not young anymore but he was a member of the uh national championship baseball team wherever how many years ago that was. So he we had people attending Athens community events u particular one uh that really enjoyed was attending some kind of event at the 40 watts club some kind of anniversary something like that. So just a very diverse group of but these are seem to us to be people we've enjoyed and you know the money was good you know nice coming out of this by having a short-term rental for the five years we've done it but we really like the people that we met through this thing although we didn't meet them personally we met them through online but uh we believe these are desirable types of people and they enjoy as we do the benefits of a short-term rental so I Runner feedback has been really positive. Uh we get repeat renters. We have really haven't received any complaints that we're aware of and Aby's on the board. So I think we'd be aware of that. Uh we asked the planning commission to consider several clarifications that we would make to the staff report. Uh number one references made is that we are turning an existing unit to a CSTR. Listen to me. I'm part of the lingo, right? I'm not not eligible to be drafted here. This is confusing language to us because we've

been renting our condo unit for short-term rentals for five years now. It's been listed very clearly on the Airbnb sites. Uh and we've managed it responsibly and actually Airbnb paid the fees that were due or that since Clark County and they've paid during this time. So, you know, I think that it's uh really we're not going to do anything different because it's called a CSTR. If our proposal is approved, we're going to do the same thing we've done, just that now they're calling it a CSTR, at least in our view. Several reference also made that approval of our application, we reduce the supply of long-term housing. We've owned this since 2010. It's been our family since then. We've never really offered it for to the general public for long-term housing. the Athens area. So, we did have that one stretch where we had a family friend stay there for a couple years. Certainly since uh 2021, we've never had, you know, never really offered it. So, it really it's not in our term, it's not reducing long-term housing in the Athens area because it never was there for the past 15 16 years. staff report also refers to CSTR uh introducing I love this. Oh, I can't wait to use this. My two-year-old grandchildren, hyper transient tendency. So hypert if you got grandkids, you know what that's about. But the uh in our case the the uh might be that might be happen to neighborhoods when you introduce a STR. We haven't seen that neighbor. That neighborhood hasn't changed since 2010. Certainly hasn't changed since 2021 when we introduced the STR areas. Perhaps UG might be moving in kind of slowly and steadily. We kind of see

that, but that's the only thing we see. Regardless of outcome, we want to say thanks to the ACC planning department. Our primary interaction both Max, Stephen, and Mark uh also with various departments that Abby primarily interacted with. I mean, all you people are accessible, open, helpful. We appreciate that. I know you're thinking possibly that this might be up except that you already got the staff report on your hand. That's

so listen, we we enjoy our Athens condo. It's a second residence. We're going to maintain it as a second residence. Uh if special use is granted to us to continue to operate, we've done for the past five years, uh we're going to continue to do it responsibly. It's our house. We're not interested in anybody tearing it up. So, you know, we we if it loss of that, I think would be certainly a loss for us. you know, we have some a little bit of income coming off it to help offset what are steadily increasing costs of owning the residence, but I think also there's a loss the type of people that come in that use our condo, they're a benefit to the community and to the area. And so I think there would be that for us as well. So, accordingly, we request that the commission approve the special use permit to allow us to offer our condos a short-term rent rental as we've done since 2021. So, I thank you for listening and uh thank you for consideration of our application.

Thank you. Is there anyone here to speak in support of the application? Is there anyone here?

Sitting for two hours in a room full of empty. Gosh. Um, I'm Echo Daniel. I found out about the resoning request yesterday at 12:22. So, I couldn't get anything written to you. I am the owner address.

Yes. 425 River Bottom Road. I am the owner of units 6, 7, and 14 in the same building. I'm also the owner of unit 8 and unit 18 in the building 200 which you saw on the maps. It's up the hill a little bit. It's a community. Um I'm really opposed to this. This is long-term rental. My tenants I don't manage the property now myself. It is managed by uh Christy Jenkins at AGA properties. Um my tenants are grad students. They are young professionals. They are med students. They are upper classman EGA and they're fourth and fifth year EGA. And this is one of the few areas you can live in five points for under $3,000 for two bedrooms. It's just gotten so expensive. And our little enclave right there, long-term rentals, feels like home to these people. This is their home. Um I do not and I think it's it's not wonderful. It's kind of a little shocking to me when I found out that there's been a five-year Airbnb there. Just because there's been a fiveyear something going against the zoning doesn't mean it's okay. Also, they seem very nice. They're very nice. They can sell it tomorrow. Y'all have y'all are here to protect that from happening. He's wonderful. I love the way he spoke. Seems so nice. I'm on the board too with Abby. We have communicated by email but never had a phone conversation. But yeah, I'm opposed to this. Um there are parking issues on game day that we deal with. We spend the first two and a half months of every year training students not to park in our parking lot. Um we there's there's noise issues that I'm concerned about. And it's not like um it's not like it's over there. It's 10 inches from the other unit. It's a floor below that's constant. It's gonna be a hotel room. I know they've done great for five

years, but they could be gone tomorrow. They could sell it next week. That is what y'all do is you protect the property rights for the long term of Athens. So, long-term rental. This is long-term rental. And it's one of the few this in Lumpy Square. I own three there and I will fight till my last breath for those to remain long-term rentals for young professionals, students in this community. they serve a purpose. Um, in summary, they could sell it tomorrow. Y'all could change the zoning and they could sell it next week. They manage it beautifully. The next folks once you make this change, we don't know. And in the HOA, I'm going to have to deal with that. Just like UG dump, you spoke so well. UJ dumped this on. Okay. I don't want an Airbnb dumped on me. Officially approved by Athens Clark County in a area that is all long-term rentals. Please don't do that. That's I I had since 12:22 yesterday to prepare. So, thank you.

Thank you. Anyone else to speak in opposition? Um rebuttal. We are. Yeah. The applicant could have two minutes to revise if there's anything you want to say. Isn't it true that if we sold it? You can come up and and lose. I'm happy. Um, isn't it true that if we sold it, the next person would have to go through this process. The short-term rental is just for me. Did that change? Oh, okay. Yeah. So, it becomes with the property. Okay. All right.

Yeah. interesting thing that would change if say the property were sold, the special use would carry with it, but if the new owner decided to do it as a long-term rental and it was not short-term rented for a year, then that special use would this has been a changing process through here.

But um and parking in our complex, Chadzsworth Commons, we do not have an issue on game day. the neighboring kind of that surrounds us. They do. I have friends over there and they do, but ours we have never had parking and we own three parking spots. So, we've kind of got a little buffer even if we do that. So, thank you. Thank you. All right. So, we'll take it behind the row. Hi. Would you like to start?

Well, I'm just gonna say my normal thing and I'll be quick. Uh, you know, I think we just hit on my main opposition to this is always that I feel that special use permits are inappropriate because they ride with the property forever and the property owners could sell it to somebody else and then it would be an Airbnb forever. And I don't like that and I don't think any of us like that and that's why we changed the uh changed the rules about that. So, these can't be for short-term rentals anymore. Um, yeah. So, my opinion on that is uh hasn't changed. which I think everybody seems very nice and I would encourage the owners to get behind, you know, what I and other people have proposed is a some sort of licensing regime for Athens clar county that would give a license to everybody who has one maybe and then that would uh you know change when the property is sold. So I encourage you to support that measure with the local government and uh yeah because I feel that this is inappropriate to approve. Um, can we condition a special use permit to not ride with park?

Um, can you say that again? I'm sorry. Are we is it within our perview, I guess, to condition so that it doesn't ride with the property

time it changes title. Yeah. Um let's look into that. Um if you if discussion wants to go we'll come back to it.

What I would add to this discussion actually is [clears throat] a concern I wouldn't well a concern that I have being a person who has for 20s something years been surrounded by game day houses. And if you don't know what game day houses they are empty except for maybe eight weekends a year. So, I have multiple game day houses in my neighborhood that don't fall into the regulations of short-term rentals, right? Because these are families that can afford to live in Atlanta and they've, you know, bought in our neighborhood when houses were a lot cheaper and so they can afford to sit on an empty house. And what I believe is going to happen is that there are people who utilize a home, people who might be in a similar position who decide to put it on the Airbnb market in the meantime. So, I don't actually think that when we stop Airbnbs that we're going to suddenly get a bunch more housing flooding the market. I've never believed that. And like these guys said, and I I know people who feel the same way, which is like, if I stop being able to do my Airbnb, I guess I'm just going to hold on to my house and use it for family and maybe do a couple of like 30-day rentals each year to traveling nurses or things like that. So, I just see this as an opportunity to inject a little bit of a dose of reality to the tradition, the long tradition in this town of game day houses. And I'm not necessarily I've never loved the game day house thing, but I I've always sort of respected the right of people to do that, I guess. And um but if you think about it, it's when you're thinking about housing supply, it's just as odious as short-term rentals are. So just pointing out that we're not when we take all these short-term rentals off the market, we're not suddenly getting a

bunch of housing available. maybe way down the road or something, but I still don't think it's gonna happen.

Um, I'm just going to say the spiel I've said for all of these. Um, not to take up your time, but for the benefit of the applicants who are here, um, uh, to explain myself, excuse me. I agree with staff's recommendation. Um, I agree with their reasoning. Uh I do believe that short-term commercial short-term rentals put undue pressure on the housing market. And I do not think that the personal uh commendable qualities of each individual applicant is how we should make land use decisions, which is why I'm glad we did away. This the special use permitting scheme. Um out of fairness to all of the other ones that we have seen of this, I'm going to vote the same way I voted on all the other ones. Um, and I do uh for the record, I don't uh I don't necessarily agree with um what Sarah Barisford said. Um I think that Airbnb does have an impact on how many game day houses there are. uh maybe not in five points um but certainly throughout the rest of the community uh because the n the number of people who can afford to buy a house to visit eight times a year is lower than the number of people who can afford to buy a house to visit eight times a year and rent out eight times a year more. just like it makes having a game day house more accessible and it makes it easier for more of those to exist. And we're not going to do away with it completely. I think this still does have an effect. Every unit counts. Um again, I live across the street from a house that was never a game day house. it was a long-term rental and then it got turned into a short-term

rental where there are people there, you know, 12% of the year and there's several other houses like that in my neighborhood. Um, so I do think that this is an important goal. Out of fairness, I'm going to uh vote to recommend it now. out. So, I'm not going to bore you with my normal speech here, but there are a couple of things here because we're going to be voting on our very last two until we change the ordinance again and have something new to do. But, um

um so, uh but there was something the gentleman said that definitely rang a a bell in my head. Short-term rental short-term renters are more likely to spend more money per day than long-term renters. They're here whether they're here for their son or daughter's sports camp or academic camp, uh here for uh you know, whatever reason it is, they're coming here to spend money. And I like that being chair of East Bloss oversight. I count that money or it's counted and presented to me every month and I get to see up and down and up and down and up and down. So that that is a a pretty strong uh bit of a fact. Um another thing is the one thing worse than a loud short-term renter is a loud long-term renter.

Um or a loud homeowner. And I have lived next to someone, I've said it, I think my first house when I came back to Athens, um, people next door put a above ground above ground pool. Uh, they were single and having a lot of fun. And my kids couldn't bump their head on this table yet, but they got to hear new vocabulary. And I had not one damn thing I could do about it as long as they did it during the day. At night, I could shut them down, but they wouldn't. and I got along with the neighbor, but it was just hard to deal with. So, long-term problems are much worse than the in-n-out problems. So, that's always been kind of the thing. I won't get into my other normal shiel. Uh I I'll I'll relieve y'all with that. I think you know how I'm going to vote. I'm going to vote in favor. Uh yes, for this.

Yes. If there's I was gonna say one more thing, but you can go ahead. No, do ahead. Well, I just wanted to say just, you know, very briefly that I'm I'm very pro SDR as a general category. I'm just very anti uh this process for it. So, I'm hopeful that, you know, by denying all these, it's not making them go away. We still have time to come up with another solution. And I hope that all the property owners of these will push for a new solution. Uh because this is not the solution. And uh yeah, but I'm not anti-STR. want us to find a solution to keep them existing because they are good for the economy like Alex said. Bruce, what were you gonna say?

Okay, so after consulting with attorney's office, um there 9-20-6 has a list A through O of certain conditions that can be considered as part of special use approvals. Um reading through each one of those trying to find an opportunity to tie it to ownership, there really doesn't seem to be a good connection. and it's certainly not explicitly stated in A through O. Um there there is one category that references duration of use as being something that can be a condition that you could put on a special use approval. Um where that's been used in the past, uh the example that I can think of off the top of my head would be a tailgate facility that we have in town. the duration of use of that for tailgate facility functions with RVs coming and that type of thing was limited to game day weekends and um I think there was an identified list of other UG events that the applicant agreed to. So that was how that condition of approval was put in place. It did not extend to ownership. And the other reason I think that our recommendation is that that's not a viable option. um is the zoning code goes to great lengths to not make decisions based on who an owner of property is. The the zoning code works very hard to regulate use and structure those two categories and it turns a blind eye to owner and I think that's very intentional. So I I don't think that's an option that we have available.

Okay. Thanks. I think it's a really interesting idea, but I think it also tease us back to the initials. That's what I was just about to say. It's all about the owner and not really the property. Yeah. Whereas, if we had some sort of licensing thing, it would be about the owner. Whereas, this is not the right body to regulate because we can't consider the owner. We can only consider the property. So, everything you say about how great of an operator you are is really irrelevant because we're looking at the property itself. So, I think when judging something like a short-term rental, you should factor in the owner and we currently can't do that. So, that's why this system I'm against it. Like to make a motion. I'll make a motion to deny. Second. Okay. Right.

I'll vote. Any discussion on the motion? Yeah. Does anybody want to discuss further thoughts? Okay. Okay. All right. Uh motion on the table is for denial of the special use request for the subject property. Garing, yes. Harrisburg, no. Pass. No. Sams, no. Sanders, yes. Lord, yes. Three yes, three no. Oh my god, we have a tie. It's a move. [laughter]

It's your be the first time I've ever seen this happen. Um, I'm really glad I visit this property. I'm going to vote now. Okay. The motion to deny the request fails. We need a new motion. Okay. I'll make a motion to approve. Okay. Anybody want to sec? I'll second. Okay.

Yeah. I'm sorry. That was Sam's Barisford. Yeah. Okay.

What I would add to the discussion maybe is just that I I think Mike, you're making a really good point. I feel like I'm a little bit stuck in my my opinion now. So, I gota I stay consistent. But I do really agree with you. I think that does make a lot of sense. This is not quite the right. But yeah, we keep voting to approve them for some reason because it happened last time, too. So, I think we're sending a very inconsistent message by first removing it and now this. Oh, it's it's absurd.

It's completely ridiculous. And I think it's really unfair to all the other people that didn't get a chance to apply yet. Like I think this is completely unfair to everybody else even considering approving these after we you know I think once we decided to remove this as an option we should never have heard any more of them because it's unfair and so I think that I mean I think we're making a huge mistake and I'm if I may it it's when you hand that application in that is what it is all about but we've all stated it's a bad idea so I don't understand why we all have this making a recommendation Yes. Yeah. To but I mean we are not the final say on this one. Correct.

All right. Motion on the floor is to approve the requested special use. Uh Sams. Yes. Parisford. Convince me. Mike. No. Garing. No. Pass. Yes. Sanders. Yes. Lord, this is to approve. This is to approve the Yeah. No. Then I got confused. All right. Yes. Three no to approve. Oh, we have three yes. Three nos. How did that happen? Yes. Three yes. Three and no.

Um, yes. Yes. Motion passes. Four. Yes.

All right. Item number two, 249 Fifth Street. All righty. Uh, the next item is for 249 Fifth Street, special use permit, 2025 122 2423. This is going to sound remarkably similar to the last presentation I made. Um the request is for a special use permit in RM1 uh for a commercial short-term rental uh in an existing single family residential home. Uh there's no occup occupancy limit proposed. Uh this is an aerial picture that is not very helpful. Um you can see the house there on the southern part of the property. Um and some trees in the back. Um we have some other images that will be more helpful later on. Uh this is the current future land use which is traditional neighborhood that would remain. Uh this is the proposed zoning change from RM1 to RM1 with a special use indicating crime. Uh here's an environmental areas map again showing none in the area. Uh this is a survey of the property. Um it was uh submitted in conjunction with a rear edition that was permitted uh last January. It's the excuse me that was uh approved last January. It's this hash section here that has taken place. Um but this is a survey that was submitted along with the proposal. Uh this is the Q public floor plan of the property. Here is a photograph of the front of the

house showing the parking there on the left. Again, like the last item, staff is recommending denial um for the same reasons uh due to removal of housing from the market uh making it incompatible with the 2023 comprehensive plan uh as well as not meeting all the special use criteria in terms of potential impact on neighborhood character. Uh as well as generally the impact on housing stock uh as mentioned previously. Um with these we tend to uh look at the cumulative effect effect effect as opposed to um the individual property. So staff's recommendation is for denial and that concludes the staff report.

Um can I hear from the applicant now? I'm Danny McDougall and we redid this house. home your your home address

66474 Daniels. Um, so we redid this house and we kept with the we kept the original design of the house. We didn't tear it down. We didn't put up anything else. The problem with the house is that it it was built when they had outouses, not bathrooms. and we p took an outhouse out of the backyard. And so the bathroom that's in this house, it isn't attached to either bedroom. And it's a very bad floor plan for what people want today. So, we as far as your not wanting to mess up the long-term rental or somebody buying the house and living there, I've tried to rent it to them. I've tried to sell it to it. They don't want it, right? It's been on the market for six months. And the reason it's and we just pulled it off recently and I brought a slideshow to show you the problem. But the problem is that you have to walk from one bedroom you have to walk through the living room to get to a very small bathroom and from the other bedroom you have to Okay. So this is this picture is taken from one of the bedrooms. Um and it's going to show it's going to show you your path. That's the kitchen that you see in front of it. So, can we hit the net? Okay. So, you walk through the kitchen and then you need to walk past the laundry machine to get to that very small bathroom that'll be pictured that'll be shown in a moment. So, we've had a lot of people look at the house and the conversation ends there. And I don't think that this would be an issue if somebody stayed for two or three nights. Um,

and additionally, this neighborhood has other other special use permits have been granted in this neighborhood. Um, it's largely moving to a student housing neighborhood now. Um, there's, you know, there's a lot of new built student h housing essentially. Um, so the other it's very inconvenient to get to the bathroom from either from either bedroom. It's, you know, if you're living with other people, it's far from ideal. You know, you got your towel or do you want to go in the middle, you know, if they're watching TV or whatever, it's not an ideal situation. Uh, and again, I don't think this would be an issue for, you know, for somebody staying a couple of nights. I think they put up with it for I don't think anybody's signing up to do it for 10 or 20 years. So that's, you know, and like I said, we've tried we've tried to rent it. We've tried to sell it. I'm open, you know, I'm open to either. If you know somebody that's looking for that floor plan or wants to rent it or sell it, buy it. I'll do either. The issue, the other issue here is the lot line with the setbacks. We can't add anything to the to the right side or the left side. It barely meets, you know, I think it's honestly probably grandfathered in in parts of it now that it wouldn't meet the legal requirements. So, you can't go add a bathroom on either side and then you've got the front porch is where it is now. So there's, you know, there's really no way to fix this floor plan problem on this house other than to tear it down and start, which we would like to avoid.

Okay. Thank you.

Um, is there anyone speak in favor of the application? Is there anyone here to speak in opposition to the application? Okay. Any discussions? Any motion? Same thing I said before um and have said uh times before this. The weird houses are the bedrock of naturally a foreign occurring affordable housing.

Alex,

I don't disagree 100% with that, but it's not the government's job to make anyone money. I get that as well. But this is where I see a instrument like short-term renting help somebody from losing their rear on a situation that possibly truly wasn't a terrible mistake at the time of purchase. So the gentleman obviously just by the look of the pictures I was trying to find it on the MLS. I couldn't I was working too fast um on the local one but just to see um and but possibly I'm speculating um that the cost of redoing all of this has now outrun the cost of uh the sales price and so or made it so close and so this is where I do like short-term rental and I would like to clarify as a realtor it'd suit me if all the short-term I mean financially if all the short-term rentals hit the market I'd make more money today because they'd be coming to me to sell them. So So it's against my good it's against what I need in life to feed my family to support short-term rentals. But this this is just a case I'm just saying it for the record and then I'll be quiet. A case of where it can kind of come in and help somebody out that is possibly in beef. uh because the market's flat right now and it's actually just bouncing like that. It is not the market we are used to and um just just go you know houses don't sell immediately anymore. So I've said that that's one reason I do support short-term rentals.

I'll just say it's interesting because we don't have criteria for our short-term rentals. When I went to visit both properties, it's I tend to look when I'm thinking of the short-term rental issue beyond the issue of who the owner and licensing and all of that. I tend to think of what is this impact on the neighborhood? How how would a short-term rental blend with the surroundings? Is it going to be disruptive? Is there a possibility that this is not going to work? That sort of thing. And while the previous case I thought like one short-term rental, this is where I wish we had guidelines like a percentage in a rental property, that sort of thing, we don't have that. But when I think of a possible disruption in the previous case versus where we are now in a neighborhood that is more of a single family neighborhood, um for me it was sort of apples and oranges. So looking at this case, looking at the use in this neighborhood, um it was a different situation. So So I hear what you're saying. I But I also and I know I randomly got to vote in the last one, but um but yeah, I feel like the situation is different because we're looking at the use within the progress.

I cannot make a motion. So I do think that these two applications are pretty different. Um, I don't I have less of a problem with one unit and a building of condos being short-term rental as I do adding a single family. I think we kind of came to the conclusion that we wanted to cap the number of single family commercial short rentals and kind of go lower from here. So, let's get make a motion to recommend. Okay. Second. Okay. I'm sorry. You said denial. Denial.

Denial. Okay. Any other discussion on that? I have to say something closing. No. Sorry. All right. We'll do a vote. Right. Garing. Yes. Yes. Pass. Yes. Sams, no. Sanders, yes. Lord, I just missed the whole thing, so I'm not going to vote if that's okay. Okay. Uh, so we have four yes, one no, one abstension. The motion passes.

All right, last one on the new business. 420 East T Street. Good evening. Our last one of the night. 420 East Clayton Street. Special use 2025 122 2459. Applicant was Brett Thurman with AMT. Um and the owner is the Dupri company. The request is for special use in commercial downtowns. The request is for um to allow for the combination of two separate bar spaces within an existing building into a single bar space with an occupancy of more than 100 persons. No changes are proposed for the exterior of the building. proposed interior change is an 8 foot opening between the two bar spaces which will need to be reviewed under the plan review process prior to permitting. So this one does not need to go before the HPC um at least for the historic preservation commission at least for changes to exterior of course they would need to for signage and all that kind of thing. This is the 2025 aerial view of the parcel. Um, wanted to note that the address we're using on this is for the full parcel. It's 420 East Clayton Street. Um, but the uh bar spaces that we're looking at are down here at the bottom, which is facing Broad Street. So, there's kind of a little might be some confusion on the two different addresses that we're kind of looking at. The current future land use is um is downtown. That is not proposed to

change. Current zoning is commercial downtown. Only change to that for the zoning would be to add that special use onto it are some photographs of the units we're talking about. So um so that you can kind of get your bearings on where we are. So again we're looking at East Broad Street. Um this on the left is the double barrel bar and on the right is the Buddha bar. this space here the smaller entryway. They are um I guess uh residential areas up here, offices and such. Um and then of course the other side is what faces Clayton Street. This is a rendering from the applicant of the inside of the building. You can see here is where that 8 foot opening would be and shows you how the two spaces are arranged. Occupancy. I want to note the current occupancy of the double barrel bar, the one on the left side is 190 persons for the applicant and occupancy of the Buddhar on the right side is 131 persons. So total of combined would be 31 and um again these things are changing. They're just being combined into one bar. So numbers sort of remain the same. Staff recommendation is for approval. This is compatible with the 2023 comprehensive plan and that will encourage more business downtown. Compatible with the future lane use map, zoning map and ordinances. and staff feels that the staff or special use criteria have been satisfied.

Thank you. Thank you. Now we'll hear from the applicant. You win the prize tonight. The last person in the crowd, [laughter] last man sitting. I'm David Matheni and I live at 200 Mount Vernon Place. And I'm sorry I could not scare up a larger audience. [laughter] um my presentation. Apparently, I do not have any support or opposition.

No um to the special use permit to combine two existing bars, but already have occupancies well over 100 occupants. I think it's worth noting that both bars are currently owned by the same person and um continue to be operated by the same person. Apparently more people like to go to double barrel than Buddha.

Don't know what the difference is there, but that's it's going to become double barrel. I think that was part of the report. So, you've had a long evening and so let's wrap it up. The planning department staff has agreed with the points I made for my SU application and they have made my arguments perfectly in their report. So I'm available for for further questions if you have any, but I would like to have you make a recommendation to mayor and commission that this be approved. Thank you. You see no other audience members, [laughter] let's make it by the rail. speak again.

Would you like a rebuttal? It's Sarah. Um, yeah. If uh if the fire marshall is cool with it, I who am I to argue? I would like to make a motion to recommend approval. That's exactly what I was going to say. [laughter] I do have a question. Would you like to second or I would like to second. Okay. So, let's because that's what I was going to say. Yeah. Um, there is a statement that says provided the fire alarm system is upgraded. What does that upgrade require? Okay. Sorry. [laughter] Sitting here all night. Yeah.

No. Um, when an occupancy gets above 300, there are certain criterias with the fire alarm system. And I was uncertain if this alarm system has been updated since then. So, with that occupancy going up above the 300 threshold, they would have to update the fire alarm system. Make a safer establishment in our eyes. So that it's positive.

So actually while you're still there kind of curious and you waited so long. [laughter] Um do you what's the process for that? Like once when we do this and they and I you know they go through the mayor commission and they get the special use permit. Is there something is there some contingent like you get that when you demonstrate that you've upgraded your fire alarm or how does that work? So we would work with that with the plan review process they would have to go through. So this still goes through plans review. Yes ma'am. Okay. Thanks. Any other discussion? All right. Let's go.

All right. The motion is to approve the special use application as submitted. Garing. Yes. Barisper. Yes. Pass. Yes. Sams. Yes. Sanders. Yes. board. Yes. Pass is six. Then I could be non-controvers. [laughter] That's right. This time this time [laughter] um I I have no report. So

um I I've got a couple things I just want to bring to your attention. um planning commission make a made a recommendation on the proposed future land use map a few months back. Um that was always with the understanding that with it not being a zoning application per se, it's not subject to the same sort of timeline of going immediately to the mayor and commission for consideration. Working with the manager's office, uh we've been able to have some one-on-one discussions with commissioners uh that had questions, had concerns. um those discussions have been fruitful and and we're coming up on the time frame that we had suggested for bringing it forward to the Marin Commission on the January February cycle. So going forward, the future land use map um will be moving along with the packet of items from tonight's meeting. Um and so it will be uh put forward by staff. Uh it's the mayor's decision as to whether it stays on the agenda. Uh, but if that decision allows for it to be on the agenda, I'll be making a presentation at the Marin Commission agenda setting session on January 20th. Nice. With a vote on February 3rd. Did I get that right? Very good.

Work session's the 20th. It's not a work session. So, it's the agenda setting session for the voting session. So, the two readings that they have to have um would be that agenda setting session then followed by the vote. Um so just want want to bring that back to your attention. They do agenda setting at city hall, right?

Both. Yes, both sessions are at city hall. Um the role that you play as as understanding that process um and being a resource. I would just that's I wanted to bring it back before you not be just because you made that recommendation you need to know about the process but you may be approached and um I would encourage you to speak to anybody who comes up to you and ask questions about the map um if there if you find yourself in a position where you don't feel like you can answer that question I would encourage you to send them towards staff or send them towards members of the future land use steering committee which can be sort of channeled through the chair chair of said steering committee, which is Alex Sams. Um, Alex has been super helpful in this period of time over the the holidays. Um, when we've been having these one-on-one meetings, uh, we we work really hard to make sure that there's a steering committee member in that discussion so that they could represent the process and the product. Um, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. Um I I'll just tack on and not take the evening a promise but there is always concern and and I have concern that each uh commissioner Athens clar county commissioner is I they need to comprehend what's going on and so that's why we went from the meeting that we had the joint meeting I didn't feel that that really took it because they weren't used to it yet it's their fault it was sort of thrown in and they had to sort of well and so they didn't have a lot of questions. Um but I know they will and so that's why um Bruce and uh the city manager had the idea let's just do onesies and twzies so they can really bring the question and and I've sat in on a few of those and it really does help. So, should it come up or should you run across one of the commissioners, I won't go through who has and who

hasn't yet, but some still haven't. And just ask u because we need them there. We need them to understand and we need them to understand that if there's something they're really not comfortable with, it can be changed. So, it's not just a yes or no. And and possibly some are just like they're they're thinking no to this. And I'm like, I don't understand you just say no to an entire city map. Um, so keep that in mind as you're out and about. It will be important that they understand. And as Bruce said, anybody that ask you or that you feel like is important because you know how it is out in in Athens, people just get something in their head and by golly, it's just going to be that way. So that's that's my

do you have a sense that they're the people who are maybe leaning toward no are leaning toward no out of like a sense of the process not being correct or is it that like I don't like this you you've made this area too dense. I don't like that in my district. Like where where do you think that's coming from?

That's that's a good question. From what I can tell, um, they don't they're they're too broad in their in possibly the thought of it. Um, it's because if they have an issue, let's just I'm just I'm not even going to Main Street. Uh, I don't I don't know if I like Main Street uh as as a minor corridor that can be changed. So don't say no to the world when you can, you know, bring forth or have the conversation uh with Bruce Bruce or myself or the city manager and help them understand why we put it that way and they could they could have a really good point. It's like did not see that point. So, uh, it it seems like a maybe lack more of a lack of understanding or possibly constituents that are like, well, this is they don't trust maybe the process, but no one's been specific enough on the process because that would be that would be me. Um, I'm the process and and what staff has brought to our committee is the process. So, uh,

I feel like I heard a little bit of process hesitation at our joint steering at our joint, um, uh, meeting that we had with them, and I just, I can't remember the specifics of what, but hopefully there's been a chance between then and now to make some of them feel more comfortable about the process because the process questions, like I I don't know. I just think that staff and you all did a really good job with process. um agree with that. So, I just hope that yeah, if we have anyone that we think is still questioning the process, I hope there's a chance to I mean, some people you you can't you can't argue with facts, but

and there's some people that and we we sort of noticed it tonight a little bit. They may not have said it, but they don't want any more people here. Yeah, we don't want any more people uh because the sewer, because this, because of that, but they're coming storm water,

and we need them to come or we will drive and not survive. That's that's my big fear. Uh I do a lot of reading and and and hearing podcasts of municipalities and they're just gosh, they're like always on edge with money. There's it's so fine that so in other words, the people are coming. We need them to come. growth is good, but you got to put them somewhere. What do you do? Do you And and you want to go where the utilities are and the sewers are. Sorry, I'm getting going. I apologize, but it's cheaper to put them here than to put them way out there and have to run uh you know, with bigger lots and all of that. So, to do that, you're going to have to go up a story or two, maybe more than we're used to. So, they hear these things, big big tall buildings and all that, and then they're like, "Oh, this is a terrible map." Um, but when you sit down with people that were involved, uh, Bruce and Steph has been an incredible help explaining the real the the minor minor details that I can't even get to. Most of the time people go, "Oh, okay. I get that." So explanation is important.

I think sometimes people have the opportunity to register their displeasure with the growth that's coming, right? That they just they years. Yeah. And study 1% a year for 15 years. That's a good thing. It's happening whether we think it's good or not. It's Yeah. It's always going to happen. University is always going to grow. It's going to be bigger. And that's good. Growth is good. You know, if we don't have growth, then we have the opposite. Yeah. What And I was just going to say about the process yesterday. Okay. Oh, can I was just going to say one thing about the very quickly?

It would be very quick. I was going to say, you know, I think that the process for the future land use was so good. Not because I was necessarily a part of it, but I saw it a lot. So, you know, we were getting, you know, monthly updates for like a year or so, right? You know, so I wonder if that wouldn't like how much updates did the commissioners get for the last year. Did they get monthly updates? Because maybe they would have had a better appreciation of the process if there was just not a completed thing given to them, but a year's worth of progress reports given to them. So, maybe something for the future. You know, maybe at their agenda setting session there's a little Alex gets five minutes for a year, you know. Anyway, just to I know if you give me five minutes. Well, we'll have to use the stoplight.

Last thing that that I want to make sure I'm saying out loud and and that you guys are aware of at um your February voting session, you will have a text amendment in front of you regarding data centers. Um staff's been working on that research. uh we we took really good direction from the meeting that we had here in December. Um we've we've been participating in all kinds of educational opportunities and reaching out to a variety of subject matter experts who are able to kind of inform this process and make sure that we're we're using correct terminology and that we're not overreaching into things that don't make any sense. Um those subject matter experts are not telling us how to write our regulation. they're telling us how to use the terms of art that are associated with data centers um because it is a pretty complex type of development. Um so you didn't have anything before you tonight because we are working on those things but I just wanted to say that out loud. We've got a community that is on watch for this and staff's super appreciative of the local work that's going on right now for educating residents but also helping educate staff and we've had a very cooperative dialogue with those folks. So I I just need to acknowledge that thank them for that. I know they're watching because they wanted to attend tonight because they wanted to talk about data centers. So, we had to actually talk about the fact that we don't have open mic for for the planning commission. Um, but I'm saying that out loud. They are working very hard. Um, and I'm I'm looking forward to us getting to the point of having that proposal um in front of you, but also to the public so that they can participate and and feel like they've been heard and have their fingerprints on this regulation that's coming forward.

There. Can I say one thing about that? I don't know if it's the right time, but something that has stuck with me about that conversation is somewhere in there we got into sort of data centers as an ancillary use, like we were talking about primary versus auxiliary use. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think as I was kind of thinking about that over the months since we've met, I I I was trying to envision a situation where somebody would be coming forward with with their p they'd be coming forward to get their approval or maybe even their by right ability to develop a primary use that's not the data center. Like I was sort of wondering how realistic is it that we we or staff would be asked to weigh in on a data center as an auxiliary use. What is an example?

I we've got example we have in town right now. So we have data center facilities that are associated with university that are associated with our our various R&D industry enterprises that are in town. They already have them, you know. permitted or allowed under their primary zoning. So, so correct. And they're also at a scale. They didn't trigger anything, but and that's what we're having to learn is data centers can be very very small. They're still a data center.

Um, and that's that's what's making this a unique discussion to have. So, when it is the primary use, a parking lot is a corollary, right? We regulate parking lots. If you have a standalone use that's only a parking lot, that's a commercial parking lot. And there are very few places where you can do a standalone commercial parking lot. But we have all kinds of development that's done by right that has associated parking with that development. So, and you're still there rules around that. There are rules and there are ways to do it. And if you deviate from those rules, you have to seek a variance or you have to come to this body and and ask for that PD or that special use or something to allow it to function. Okay. Um, so that's maybe a way to think about it.

Okay, that's helpful. Okay. Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Um, I will enter my motion to adjourn. All right. All in favor? I I want two freight.