Historic Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

4419 Alabama.

How are you?

No, that's all right. What are you doing? Yeah, me too. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, I'll call us to order this morning. If we could, please start with a roll call.

Cliff McCormick. Present. Piper Stromat. Present. Brandon Pangenieben. Todd Morgan.

Present.

John Cavett. Present. Cassie Courtney. Present. Nathan Bird. Present. Matt McDonald. Present. Skip Pond.

Present.

Thank you. And please remember to use your mics. We are live streaming.

All right, if we could do our swearing in for anyone that's going to speak this morning.

If you're planning to speak today, will you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn in? Do you solemnly swear to affirm in the testimony of your name today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Thank you so much.

Okay. I'll go over our rules of procedures and order of business for today. The order of business for hearing certificate of appropriateness cases will be as follows. Each case will have a staff presentation followed by an applicant presentation of no more than 10 minutes after which we'll take comments by others for or against the project for five minutes total after which the applicant will have a chance for a rebuttal of five minutes and then the commission members will discuss the case and make a motion. A certificate of appropriateness will be issued within a week of this hearing. If you defer your case or if you have conditional items to bring back for the commission, you must contact staff and ask to be added to the agenda for the next meeting. You will not automatically be added to the agenda. If you plan to speak, you must be sworn in and sign in at the podium when you come up. If you need it, there's a laser pointer on the podium to point out anything on screen. If you would like to defer your case to be heard at a later date, a deferral must be requested prior to the statement of the case's motion. Existing, let's see, if you leave the meeting, please wait until you exit the wooden doors to speak or use your cell phone. All construction work must meet their certificate of appropriateness and design guidelines as approved by this commission or staff. If plans change, a new application will be required. If work is not started within six months of the issue date, a new COA will need to be issued. A COA is not a building permit or a land disturbing permit. Please contact the land disturbing office or the building permit office prior to the start of your project. The COA must be posted in a visible location or on file on the property until the project is complete. Applicants are respectfully requested to ensure that they have submitted the required application and supporting documents prior to this meeting and to adhere to the time limits as previously explained. Board members are requested to limit questions and comments on the case to only those within the purview of the board. Code setback, variance, and zoning issues are not within the purview of the commission and will have to be addressed by the applicant with the appropriate personnel within the city. Reminder, this meeting is being recorded. Next, we need to approve minutes from last month's meeting. If everyone has had a chance to review those, I'll take a motion to approve them.

So moved.

Matt, do we have a second? Second. Seconded by Todd. All in favor?

Aye.

All right. The minutes are approved. Okay. Do we have any staff reviews?

Yes. You can see a listing of the staff reviews here on the screen.

Okay. All right. As you can see, we have a long agenda today, and a few folks are here from Lupton City. I'm told that that is probably going to be deferred, and I'm going to make a motion to move that to the top of the agenda so we can dispense with that and get them out of here. Seconded. All in favor?

Aye.

Okay. We will hear LHD 26-1.

Chairman, do you want me to run through the case or do you want to just give an opportunity for folks to speak since it's being deferred and there won't be a vote?

Let's just hear from both sides and we'll, like we discussed, we'll set a timer for 10 minutes for and 10 minutes against.

Cassie, I need to recuse myself from this case. Thank you, Piper. All right, give me one second. I'll get to the part of the presentation. Okay. Okay. So this is LHD 26-1. The applicant did email requesting a formal deferral. So we will give 10 minutes to the applicant to speak on the case or the deferral and then 10 minutes to opposition. So if the applicant wants to state your name and address for the record.

Yes, hi, my name is Kendra Childers. I live at 1263 Mercer Street, Lefton City, 37351. We are requesting a deferral for 60 days for this case to gather more information from more residents. There were residents who did not have opportunity to come to other meetings and we're not aware until just recently of this so we are deferring for 60 days to allow them allow more time for a data collection that's great anything else okay so if we have anyone here in opposition or general public comment for lupton city we're going to set a timer for 10 minutes

I didn't sign this and I didn't get sworn in, but we will.

So we'll need to do that.

Okay. So help me God. We would just like to defer for 60 days. We agree as the opposition to try to come to peaceful terms and get amongst ourselves. That's it. Okay, great.

Thank you.

Anyone else from the community like to speak on this case?

Okay.

Will you just state your name and address for the record, please? Sure.

I'm Amanda Segan. I am the homeowner of 3393 Northrop Street. I'm here to oppose including my newly constructed property as part of the historic district. And if it needs to be included, I would like to know why a 2025... newly constructed home would be included. I think the deferral also addresses another issue. I'm concerned about a few things. One would be incorrect ownership information on the property. My property shows the builder still to be the owner. We purchased the property in December. I'm also questioning the neighborhood survey being presented as evidence to support. Out of the 261 addresses, it only received 24 responses, 12 in favor, none opposed, three undecided. So the reported 50% of the support is 50% of only 24 respondents, not 50% of Lupton City. Even one of the comments classified as supportive was conditional and raised concerns about affordability for long-term residents. I've submitted my objections in writing to the city, and thank you.

Do we have any other community comments? If you could just state your name and address for the record, and then sign in, and if you weren't sworn in, we'll need to swear you in.

Yes, I do. I just really would like for a clear way for us to voice our concerns. We started with a petition, then it went, please contact your city council person. Then it went to sign something in the back of the room. And then we found out we should have all along been emailing your office. So if we could have a really clear path of what we need to do to voice our objections to this. That's it. Thank you.

Any other?

Hi. My name is Christy Brock, and I'm the owner of three properties in Lipton City. The biggest concern has already been voiced, so I'm in favor of the deferment. But secondly, there has been no acceptable timelines projected by the committee as to how many days do we wait until we get acceptance of whatever repair has to be done how many committees does it have to go through before we get an acceptance none of that is in that presentation to a homeowner who just has a minimal amount of money what happens if they can't afford to have the work done but the work needs to be done is there is there some kind of plan for that person to get the work done. And I'm talking about like a roof. If a roof needs repair, what does a CHCC do if the homeowner can't afford the roof repair and yet it really has to be done?

That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Do we have any other community comments or comments by other people? Okay. I'm happy to answer those questions if you'd like. Go ahead. Okay. So if Lupton City became a local historic district and a certificate of appropriateness was required for changes, there are two levels of review. There's a staff review or an administrative review and then a historic zoning commission review. A staff review typically takes 10 business days at most, usually a little bit quicker than that. And then a commission review takes about four weeks from application to meeting. And then as far as costs for repairs, we do have a certificate of economic hardship application. But generally speaking, the way that the guidelines were drafted through these meetings, if someone was just replacing like a architectural shingle roof for an architectural shingle roof, that would be a staff review. I think that was all of your questions.

So Cassie, can you address how the public meetings, what public meetings have happened and have all parcels that are being proposed been notified?

Yeah. So here's a timeline of the project. This was prompted by some members of the neighborhood, and I have been facilitating a staff to help them through the process. So we met on January 12th, March 3rd, April 14th, April 29th, and June 1st. And then we met most recently on September 8th. That meeting was publicly advertised in the paper. And every property owner and the individual addresses within the boundary received a letter. We have an example of one here if someone wants to see it. notifying them of the application itself and the meeting. That meeting is required per the historic zoning ordinance. I would say if we're going to defer, I'd like to host another one of those meetings so that we can get all the folks together. What was the other? I think that was all of the questions.

So another formal notice will go out for the proposed public meeting?

We can do that.

Okay.

okay any questions go ahead um has the i know the neighborhood association for this area covers a lot more than the proposed historic district but has the neighborhood association met on this or voted on this or is there a plan for the neighborhood association to vote on this i believe the neighborhood association yes they've met i've attended one of those meetings they met this past monday and the neighborhood association is the applicant they're the ones that paid for the application Okay. Sure.

Go ahead.

Shelby, if you could swear him in, please.

I'm sorry. Maybe.

My question is, they're talking about this being historical.

I'm kind of historical. I've been around so long.

And I've been doing, I did carpentry work for 52 years. There was no such thing as architectural shingles 52 years ago. So what do we do? Go back to the old stuff that they put on it back then? There ain't none of that either because it had asbestos in it. So how do you operate? How do you operate when you're looking in a window and The windows that was in them 52 years, I mean, 52 years, I'm sorry. Back when this thing was built 100 years ago, the windows were just single pane glass. When you looked at it, it all distorted everything. They don't have that anymore. It's all insulated, nice windows. So how do you go back to calling it historical when you're putting brand new stuff in it that never existed back in those days? That'd be one of my main. And one more thing. She talked about that letter that went out. We never got. any of them except this last one, and we got it two days before the meeting, which we retired, so we was able, but a lot of people that's working and stuff, they can't get there in two days. They need to be notified earlier. They're not notified properly.

I'll thank you for your time. Thank you. So in terms of the guidelines, to just briefly address his question, I assume that will be flushed out in the community meeting. Yes. And we'll make another effort as we discussed to notify everyone in this next round.

Yeah, I believe we sent the letters out at least a week before the meeting. Shelby can double check the date. And then this is the draft guidelines that we went through during one of those public meetings. And you can see from these pictures, we did kind of a pinup situation. And folks went around the room and flagged them similar to what we did when we updated these guidelines. Obviously, not everyone attended that meeting. And then this past meeting on September 8, we really didn't get to get into the technical weeds. I think hopefully we'll have another opportunity to do that so that people have a better understanding of what this means because we did not get that far on the 8th.

Okay. And I guess I never heard an answer on the question. Was there a formal vote of the Neighborhood Association on this?

On the January 12th meeting, there was. And because the Neighborhood Association did submit the

And how many people were at that meeting?

The average number is 20 to 30.

So it wasn't an unusual attendance or anything?

One thing I would like... Right. Right.

One thing I would like to see, I guess we're looking at seeing this again in two months between now and then, is another well-advertised formal meeting of the Neighborhood Association and formal vote of anyone who would like to attend that, just to get a gauge of what the public opinion is. I think that's the most appropriate venue for that. Okay. Okay.

Was the vote tallied? We never took a vote. Well, there's been several votes.

So the January 12th, that was like our big negative news. So for them to, Mark took a vote on it. And then people said yes.

What I'm talking about now, not that. Which? Sorry.

So we're not we don't we don't want to we don't want to flesh this.

Yeah.

Pardon me. We don't want to flesh this out in here. But you guys, as a neighborhood association, need to make an effort to get together and get everybody on whatever page you want to be on.

Mr. Chair, may I make a comment? Go ahead. I went to two of those meetings, and one thing I've noticed that will be important as we vote on this, potentially in two months, and if it passes and how we consider it, generally with our four existing historic neighborhoods, when we discuss something, when we discuss any issue, it's from the point of view of the resident, right? someone who lives there. And frequently, the biggest ones are someone says, you know, I live in a one-story house and there's some other ones and someone's going to tear the house beside me down or someone's going to add three stories to there. Someone's going to build something really big and it doesn't fit the character of the neighborhood I brought into. It's from the experience of someone who lives there from a resident perspective. It seemed, and I asked, and correct me, anyone from the neighborhood, if you want to, it seemed that from the neighborhood perspective, The voting and the opinion, the decision making is based on ownership, who owns the property, not who lives there, which is very different. And maybe we don't really run into it because we're a lot more owner occupied in other neighborhoods. So in this case, for instance, that matrix I saw, like if someone owned eight lots, they were eight votes. That's a different sort of logic. That's a different set of priorities. And I'm trying to think how is a commission if we're asked to represent the neighborhood, but the neighborhood in this case is actually, you know, the the investor's. How do we respond to that? Because we have a member of each neighborhood on our commission, and that's why they're historic, because the neighborhood decided to. But if I'm told by neighborhood, in this case, we don't mean who lives there. We mean who owns there. How do we take that into advice? That's a thought I had. I think it's really important, and hopefully we get some input there, some thought there as we consider this in two months.

briefly we might not live there but we pay the same taxes we should have a right to vote so i think thank you i think that is part of the deferral that we can continue to have meetings and come together as a neighborhood to decide how you all want to move forward and how you want to be counted in a vote okay

I've got a couple questions. I apologize. This is a little off topic, but for the Neighborhood Association, do you know off the top of your head in the bylaws or property owners given the same standing as residents? I know it varies from neighborhood to neighborhood.

Okay. Right. Right.

Okay. That would be useful information as well. I know I'm the president of the San Elmo neighborhood association and in our bylaws, property owners are also allowed to vote even if they don't live in the neighborhood, but I know it varies. And so that will be useful information in 60 days when we're considering the application. A couple of questions for Cassie. What is the process when we vote on this? Are we voting to forward this on to a next level of review? Are we voting on the draft guidelines and review matrix as currently written to send that to city council? What, what does the process look like from this vote that will be taken in 60 days?

Yes. So you will be voting to make a recommendation to city council to approve or deny. And that would include the boundary, the historical description, the, um, and the guidelines.

then it would go to city council for two readings um before approval or denial also has is part of just curious and something to consider is part of this would part of this application add one seat to this commission where there's a seat for lufton city yeah so the way lufton city would have a seat on someone from lufton city

So that would be something that we would need to consider as part of the ordinance. I think based on the way that we're currently operating, if this does get approved, that would be an appropriate amendment to the ordinance to ensure that a member of the neighborhood had a seat on the commission since that's currently how it's composed.

One more statement. For those of you following this case and for friends of yours and neighbors of yours that might be following this case, I really encourage you to very closely review this proposed review matrix because this is going to control what would apply specifically to Lupton City. Do not get overly concerned about what friends from St. Elmo or Ferger Place or anyone else might tell you about what the historic zoning rules do and do not do. The rules in St. Elmo might be more onerous than the rules that are being proposed for Lupton City. So really review this specific review matrix. It's up on the screen. It's part of the application. I'm sure Cassie can give you a copy if you request it. because this is really what we're voting on. It's very specific to Lupton City, and we can make changes to this. If you see something that concerns you and everybody agrees, hey, I don't like how windows are being regulated, maybe we need to change that and review those differently in Lupton City than we do in San Elmo. So please review those very closely and form your opinion based on these specific guidelines, not whatever you might have heard from other neighborhoods.

And I'm happy to make paper copies for folks that maybe don't use technology as often. But this is also available on the historic zoning website. It has been posted for multiple weeks now. It's a link to all of the application materials for this application. So you can find that. And the presentation from today are both online.

Can we recognize the lady in the back there with her hand?

I recognize you.

part of the proposed area, and if that can be considered to renew.

So generally speaking, when we're looking at the boundary and deciding it, we're looking at the historic context of Lupton City, and that may include new construction, future new construction and existing new construction. The commissioners can attest that the standards for new construction may be slightly different, right? We're not going to hold a 2025 house to a standard of a 1920 house because they are very different. But say you wanted to build an addition on your house or put in new paving, you would be held to those same standards to come before the commission to make sure any changes that you made would fit into the context of Lupton City. Obviously, with the note that your house was built before the guidelines were in place. So those are all things that would be considered as part of a review.

Sure.

I understand. Yeah. So the boundary, like I said, was developed based on the historic context of Lupton City and how it was developed and created. Those lots were subdivided 100 years ago and your lot happened to be one of them. So that was, I think, the reasoning behind that.

I think I could offer a little color here. We hear frequently here in St. Elmo, there are a lot of new houses here. And let's say there's a new house that's 10 years old and they want to put an addition on. We're not going to hold a new house. That's why there's a commission here to hear these cases, because there's always going to be many things that don't make sense if you just black and white follow the rules. Obviously, if the house is a new house and someone wants to put an addition, it doesn't have to look like an old house. You want to put an addition on your house as long as you're within the size limit that we have. I think everyone here would agree, and I don't think you'd find anyone that would disagree that... we basically say fine you know that's that's why we have a commission to hear these things because anytime you write a rule um you start getting really black and white and you end up with some absurd results and hopefully our role here is to keep the absurd results from occurring and to make things reasonable can i make one comment to kind of add to that um i think that in just in to speaking to the lepton city residents who feel probably a lot of

Um, lack of clarity on what the intent is. I just want to speak to the spirit of what historic zoning is all about, and that is not to make things more cumbersome. It's actually quite the opposite now that the new guidelines have been really invested in by this city and by this team, by Cassie and others. I think that the goal is to, one, preserve history, but not to distract from what needs to be recognized as its own value and protecting new things from becoming... you know, a challenging conflict of what history was supposed to be, how we were supposed to respect this particular neighborhood. So I just, again, kind of adding on to what everyone has said here, I just think, you know, reading the matrix, double checking what this is about is to preserve good things and not, and hinder anything that would just be an inappropriate to your neighborhood.

Quickly, a response. So what I just heard with that comment, and I'm, I thought we were deferring. So her house is new. So she gets kind of this unrestricted pass. And then the historic houses are going to be held to this harder, tougher standard that is in this historic guidelines. So if she tries to do an add-on, she can just... slap vinyl windows and whatever she wants up to a degree i know i don't have to go through this commission if it was historic but the older houses will be more plagued by this um the restrictiveness of being historic than what is for 2025 bill so that's just what i heard um personally and i apologize if that's rude

I don't know if that's completely accurate. What I would recommend is if you want to stick around and watch our meeting today, we have got lots of cases and you will see how these guidelines work. You can also, if you don't have time to stay, it is live streaming currently on YouTube. Um, our past what, three or four months are online as well. I would recommend that you watch those meetings. I think it's really informative.

Sure. The review for new houses is not totally unrestricted. We just do take into account a new house. We're not going to make... You know, St. Elmo is very picky about windows, for example. And again, like I said before, what applies to St. Elmo may not apply to Lupton City, depending on how the guidelines are written. But as an example... St. Elmo's very picky about keeping historic windows. So the single pane glass with the wavy distortion and everything. If you have those on your house, we try very, very hard to keep those on your house. But we're not going to make somebody who lives in a new house or whose historic windows were broken somewhere along the way. replace those with those same single pane glass windows. We were taking into account the fact this is a newer build with newer materials and we need to meet the more or less aesthetic of the neighborhood, even though newer materials might be appropriate for a new house. And the other thing it provides is protection against, uh, A very modern house, for example, and again, this all depends on how the guidelines ultimately get written, but preventing somebody from making a large concrete block house in a neighborhood that is predominantly, you know, wood paneling, things like that. So there's this kind of overarching recognition that new construction. still needs to be compatible with the neighborhood around it is how we have written previous neighborhood guidelines and again the guidelines for lepton city can be changed to fit what the neighbors want that'll be addressed in your neighborhood meeting

yeah we'll get another meeting scheduled if we need to have to we can do that as well like i said on september 8th we didn't really get an opportunity to get into the technical details so i think if we can schedule some time to do that it'll be really helpful for everyone No, and we can talk more about the specific process. Like if someone wanted to come in and demolish a historic resource in Lupton City, there would be regulations to require a review to potentially not allow that. If someone wanted to come in and build a four-story building, there would be a review to make sure that, does that fit in with Lupton City? Maybe not, because we have a bunch of one and a half story bungalows, right? So all of those things would be considered as well as changes to existing houses. But we can talk more specifically about the survey results from the neighborhood, not the ones that you're thinking, the architectural survey. So when we went and looked at all the houses in the neighborhood and what they're made up of, and that's how we kind of informed the guidelines. So you can see the majority of windows in Lupton City are vinyl. We do have some wood ones. That's going to inform whether or not we're going to hold Lupton City to the same standard as St. Elmo, as Commissioner Byrd mentioned. So we can talk through all of those kind of details during those meetings.

Okay. Thank you, Cassie.

I was just gonna please use your mic microphone.

You have to hold it down.

I was just going to say that the issue of houses that are new to a historical district, that's not an uncommon thing. Probably all of these areas have houses that are much newer than the rest. So there are settled ways to deal with that that we can discuss further. But your situation is certainly not an isolated event.

I was going to say, it's my understanding that what is driving the application for Lupton City is the scale and massing of the neighborhood versus some places like St. Elmo or Fortwood that may have a lot of gingerbread and architectural details. or a famous architect or slate roofs and all that good stuff. But it was the fear of overbuilding, like a lot of demolition and going up with three and four story buildings and changing the density and taking the whole neighborhood, which seems to be taking the whole neighborhood out of character, which seems to be what the residents there really love and appreciate. about the neighborhood. So I think it's just important to know that it's not apples to apples, really, in this case, that Lefton City will be looked at and should be considered in its own accord, not trying to become something it isn't, or not trying to take it back to a certain point in time, but actually making sure you maintain what makes it, you know, a unique neighborhood for Chattanooga.

I would say maybe if you're in the neighborhood, drive down St. Elmo Avenue, drive down some of the streets in St. Elmo. That's historic. Back 30 years ago, North Shore started to go historic and decided not to. Drive around North Shore. They're both good neighborhoods. I don't live in either one. I used to live in Lupton City. I lived in Northrop. There's two different ways you can grow. And some people think that what's going on North Shore, the real tall skinnies close together is good and that's fine. And St. Elmo, a lot of those residents said, that's not really what we feel like is a good neighborhood. You know, we like front porches close together where we can see our neighbors. That's what they voted, and that's fine, too. You know, I don't think anyone's here to make a decision for anyone. It's just, you know, there's something on top of zoning that some neighborhoods have wanted. This neighborhood said they might. So it's a decision to be made.

All right. Commission, any other comments? Would someone like to make a motion for the deferral?

Move to defer 60 days.

Okay. Do we have a second? Second. Second to McCliff. All in favor? Aye. Motion passes. Thank you all.

Thanks, everyone. Give folks a second to get out and I'll move to new business. Okay, we'll move into new business. Thanks, everyone. I think that was a good discussion. So first case is HC 2686 at 5005 Beulah Avenue in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It is a historic structure, circa 1940. The proposed project is an addition. Historic zoning history back in 2022 was a fence. So here is an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo historic district overlay. Here are the property photos showing the existing conditions. Some property photos at the rear where the addition is proposed, neighboring property photos. And then the application information provided by the applicant. So here is a GIS aerial showing those dimensions. Here is the 20 by 20 home addition proposed. So 20 by 20 home addition, a gable roof, CMU foundation to match existing, hardy cement siding, architectural shingles, white trim to match, gutters and downspouts, sliding glass door at the rear entry and some exterior lighting. And then the foundation, like I said, to match the existing foundation. And then here's that site plan showing that rear addition. It's at the center rear of the property. And then a floor plan showing that addition. And then an elevation rendering showing that proposed addition. So we'll have the applicant confirm because there is an existing little dormer window on the center if that will be covered. And then another site plan and some pictures of the existing windows. and then the proposed windows material description provided by the applicant. And then for the staff report, so you can see here additions that are over 150 square feet do still have to come before the commission for review. So chapter 11, additions, new construction and demolition. What is appropriate, locating additions at the rear or side elevations in a manner that is clearly subordinate to the primary structure, yes. Constructing additions that can be removed in the future without permanently damaging the historic building. Yes. Constructing an addition that is smaller than the existing building or in a similar scale that's not prominently visible. The addition is smaller and not visible from Beulah Avenue. Constructing an addition with similar form and massing. Yes. Constructing an addition at the rear of the building or at a side elevation as far back as on the site as possible, yes. Maintaining that primary facade or principal elevation, yes. And then using alternate materials on additions as long as the material is a lesser material than the original construction, such as wood, clapboard, or stucco addition to a stone or brick building. So the applicant is proposing hardy siding, concrete block foundation, and matching trim. And then inappropriate designing additions with materials not used on the property or similar buildings in the district We'll have the applicant to confirm the windows have the depth and dimension to match historic windows and then using Contrasting materials for the addition when compatible materials are available and we'll have the applicant confirm the window materials so we'll have the applicants presentation if you could just state your name and address for the record, please and

Calvin Smith, contractor. What else did you say?

Your address. Your name and address for the record.

Oh, the address, 5005 Brula Avenue, Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Okay.

Did you have any other comments on the case or...

Okay. I'm good.

All right. Do we have any other community comments or comments by other persons here in the audience? Okay. We can move to commission discussion. Calvin, they may have questions for you.

Just hang tight up here if you would. Yeah. Commission, do we have any questions or comments for the applicant?

What's the proposed roof line going to be for this addition? I'm seeing two different pictures here.

Yeah, it's gonna be, uh, pitch is six 12.

In which direction now I'm seeing the roof slope one way on the top picture and another way on the bottom picture.

So, yeah, we do have an updated, uh, picture of it. It actually would be more of the bottom because the top picture is like a slope and we're not going to do a slope. We do want it gabled simply because of that dormer is on the existing property. And with that dormer, we are going to tie into that, not exceeding her existing roof line. Basically, that dormer would be no more. That's the, you know, the ideal plan.

Okay. Other questions or comments? Would someone like to make a motion? I'd like to make a motion.

I can. No one else will. Is it the 5,005 Bula? No other comments? Okay. No other comments?

Okay. I make a motion to approve case number H. Sorry. I pressed my button a second too late. Can you go back to the windows?

proposed windows are they still vinyl yes okay I think that needs to be a condition I don't know this new and what are the window rules for new additions in st. Elmo now I thought final was allowable

It might be out of date. If I may, I just completed a project on 4617 Florida Avenue. And there was a new addition as well. And we did install vinyl windows. And that got approved. And we basically finished that yesterday.

Did we approve that case here, Cassie?

Yes. I think the guidelines are similar to our previous ones in this sense that the materials need to be similar and have that kind of depth and dimension, but the actual material of vinyl or composite is acceptable. And you're headed to Chapter 11 for additions. Yes.

this is not necessarily a hundred percent related to the question at hand. I'm just, I don't know how we missed this in the original review that appropriate is using an alternate materials on additions and inappropriate is designing additions with materials not used on the property.

So I think that bottom line is what you're referencing the one on the screen. I think that's more specifically for like a masonry or stone building. but we can examine it if we need to amend something.

Okay. If everyone else is fine with the windows, I'm fine.

I think if they're on the front, I would have a different opinion, but on the rear and in addition, I don't object. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

Can I see if the homeowner wants to say anything?

No.

Could you please come up to the mic and state your name for the record? Could you also, Shelby's going to swear you in as well.

Yes. Anna Miners. Yeah, this is my house. I've lived in St. Elmo for 20 years and had this house for 12. So done a lot of updates to it, but it's, cute little house. Um, but we've kind of intentionally adding onto it where it's, it's not going to be seen. Um, and then the S Virginia Avenue is behind it, but it's not a very, I got lucky enough to get a double lot. So it's anyway. Yeah.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but these two windows will not be impacted with the addition.

No, those won't be impacted. Just these. And the dormer window, our plan is to move it to the back, to the new addition. So only that little bathroom window will be impacted.

Thank you.

Yeah. And then originally on the plans that we sent in, we do have a sliding back door, but we actually found wooden French doors that match the current side French doors. So we're going to use that instead.

I think I'd be interested in seeing that final elevation where that dormer kind of consists on the second side right now based on the photos we have or the things submitted. It doesn't quite tell the full picture. I know we can envision it, but I think that might be the only thing I would say would be nice to make sure we're all clear on because you have two different roof pitches submitted. I know you've suggested the one you're going to go with, but maybe, and that could probably be something sent to Cassie, but I think that's what we're going to do. Say again? He has it. Oh, perfect. Even better. Yeah.

Yeah, I just have a hard time saying this submission is being complete, personally.

That's just a replica of what's in this presentation, right?

Great. With a window in the top, okay.

Okay, I'm going to pass this around.

So the only thing that changed, I guess the pitch has changed in that window in the gable.

Yeah. Okay.

Can you pass that to the other side too? Are we good to enter that into the record?

Yes.

So what's been passed around is the final design that you want approval on? Okay. Do we have any other questions? Are we good with the design that's been passed around? Yes.

Okay.

I think I'll probably put a note to follow that for the trim as well. I know sometimes with these, you know, it says conceptual, but I want to say use the trim profile shown in the paper exhibit.

What about the foundation cover? Is that going to be stone or is that just it's blocked?

No, it's not. No, it will not be stone. It's currently blocked, but it's stuck. Okay.

And that's what you'll be using. Okay. So we need to make that as a condition as well. Can you go back to the. Cassie, the window details there.

I don't think what's presented there matches the profile of the windows that are in the house now to address the question about the windows a minute ago. Not from what I can see anyway.

If you wanted to make a condition for me to review to ensure that they're matching the profile and grid pattern.

Existing windows are six over six.

Because I think you'll have to use a cloud window to get that dimension and profile that's in the rest of the house. Not just a typical new construction window. But I'm okay putting that as a condition if that's good with everyone else i don't understand what you're asking what's we're gonna we're asking for you to match the profile of the windows that are there what you presented in in the presentation as a new construction window it's it's a flat profile and not what's on the house now what not what's in that photo okay you can get you can get that matched but it's going to have to be a It's going to have to be a composite or a cloud window. Okay. And what we're going to propose is a condition that she review another submittal from you before you move forward. But I assume we'll approve it and you'll just work with Cassie to get that detail.

Okay.

The window is the only thing that will need the extra approval?

Yeah. But you won't have to come back here. Okay. I'm going to start work Monday.

If Skip signs your COA by Monday.

All right. I mean, that's a serious question. We've got to wait.

So we do our best to have the COA signed and returned by Thursday of next week. If we can get it to you sooner, we always do that. And then at that point, we'll release all of the permits. And then you'll need to follow up with me with Windows.

Gotcha.

Okay. Appreciate y'all. Okay, Cliff, you've got this.

Yep. Okay, I make a motion to approve case number HZ2686, 5005 Buell Avenue as submitted pursuant to Chattanooga City Code Chapter 10, Article 2, Section 10 through 15E and pursuant to Chattanooga Historical Guidelines. Approval is subject to following conditions. Foundation to be concrete block with stucco coating. Trim to match what is shown in paper exhibit that was displayed at the meeting. Existing dormer window to be relocated to utility room is shown on the floor plans. Other windows to be staff reviewed.

Okay. Do we have a second? Second. Seconded by Matt. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you all.

Thank you. Okay, we'll move to our next new business case. This is HZ2689 at 4707 Tennessee Avenue in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It is a historic structure circa 1900. The proposed project is an accessory dwelling unit over the existing garage. The historic zoning history from 2009 and 2013 is a deck repair and trim and fascia repair. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo historic district overlay. And here are the property photos. And the neighboring property photos. Here's the site plan provided by the applicant. So you can see that garage ADU and then the carport. Here are the plans. And then the elevations of that proposal. And the material lists, so hardy siding, colonial slate roofing, bronze seamless gutters, windows are double hung white vinyl, garage door, white steel, no windows. The lights are listed, carport posts, six by six treated pine. And then the decking and railing is TimberTech English walnut and then TimberTech black aluminum. So for the staff report, you can see for new secondary structures, construct a new secondary structure greater than 120 square feet requires a commission level review. You're going to want to go to, again, Chapter 11 in your guidelines. And then you can see the appropriate and inappropriate options for those secondary buildings. Maintaining a historically or architecturally significant secondary building as carefully as the principal. Designing a new secondary building. or structure to complement the period and style of the principal building, adapting functionally obsolete buildings for new uses such as converting a service building into additional living space which is what's happening, locating a secondary building or structure including a garage, storage building, shed or shelter away from the principal entrance or street elevation that is happening and then using exterior materials for an addition that are present in the existing building. They are proposing those modern materials. So you can see here the appropriate, like I just said, the applicant is proposing a garage and accessory dwelling unit at the rear. The ADU will have hardy lap siding, a gable roof, vinyl windows, and timber tech porch. Locating a secondary building or structure away from the principal entrance or street elevation, it is at the rear of the property. and then using exterior materials for an addition that are present in the existing building, the applicant is proposing lap siding, and we'll have the applicant confirm if the window configuration and siding profile will match the primary dwelling. So we can have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record, please.

My name's John Deardorff, general contractor for The proposed ADU garage bill at 4707 Tennessee Avenue.

Great. Did you have any other comments so far?

No. The windows to be a vinyl new construction type window with no grids or simulated divided light. None of the houses on the street, the three neighboring or the primary structure have any grids.

Okay.

And the siding will match profile as well as trim.

Perfect. Thank you. Okay. Do we have any community comments or comments by other persons? Okay, we can move to commission discussion.

Cassie, can you go back to the photo of the back of the house? There, okay. A couple questions. Is this garage original? Is it on the Sanborn map?

I can pull that up in the meantime.

And I guess another question that's not in the purview of the board, but the ADU ordinance, does it allow a two-story ADU with a single-story house?

I don't think there's anything about number of stories of an ADU. There's square footage.

There is some height stuff, but I'll pull it up.

Just speaking because I went through this personally, it can't be taller than your main home if it's already two stories. So that roof height, if it's a two-story dwelling that you're doing like a detached garage over, it already being two stories, you can't go higher than that two stories. But there is a – do you all have the ADU guidelines?

Not memorized. Okay. I believe not.

Yeah. So when submitted, you'll have to submit it to them separately, then you'll submit it to us. So make sure you get those guidelines picked up in there. Um, but as far as I think it's a unique situation too, because the current building has it's sunken into grade. So that helps you on that height aspect compared to the main dwelling that hits at a different height because of the elevation. So that's a very specific circumstance on that one.

Yeah, so it says when the height of the principal dwelling is one story maximum of 24 feet when measured to the peak of the roof, and then the maximum height, it cannot exceed the principal dwelling.

And I'll just kick off the conversation since we're already talking about it. Massing-wise, I'm okay with it just because it's not going to exceed the height of the current primary structure because of the topography that is currently existing and it going into grade.

Okay. One more question. So are you tearing down the garage or are you using the existing structure and adding on to it?

The plan is to keep the block and foundation and to remove the wood and build up from there.

Gotcha. Okay. Other questions or comments?

I don't have anything else.

To my knowledge, the garage is not original to the property.

Yeah, it doesn't look like it is. I can double-check the Sanborn, but it's not loading for me. Sorry about that.

Yeah, it is. I mean, at least the siding does not look original to me. You want to take this one?

Commissioner, am I correct in understanding there's no conditions?

None that I can think of.

I make a motion to approve case number HZ-26-89 at 4707 Tennessee Avenue as submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga City Code Chapter 10, Article 2, Section 10-15E and pursuant to the Chattanooga Historical Guidelines. And this motion is without conditions.

Do we have a second? Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Motion carries. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Okay, our next new business case, this is HZ2690 at 120 Morningside Drive in the Ferger Place neighborhood. It is a historic structure circa 1925. The proposed project is an addition and no historic zoning history. Here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the Ferger Place historic district overlay. Here are the property photos. in the neighboring property photos. And then the site plans provided by the applicant. So an existing site plan there on the left and the proposed site plan where you can see that addition. And then the existing elevations on the left and proposed addition, or elevations, excuse me, and addition on the right. And then the material list, siding at the addition to be cement fiber lap siding to match size, style, and color of existing siding. New windows shall match existing windows in style and color. Egress size windows will be used at the rear where required. Roofing will be asphalt shingles in the style and color to match. And the new foundation at the addition will be CMU covered with stucco, which will be painted to match the existing siding color. Again, this is before you because additions over 150 square feet do require a commission level review. And so for additions, new constructions and demolition, the appropriate criteria, locating additions at the rear or side elevations in a manner that is clearly subordinate. The addition is at the side and rear. It will be visible for Morningside Drive. Constructing additions that can be removed in the future without permanently damaging the historic building. Yes. Constructing an addition that is smaller than the existing building or in similar scale that is not prominently visible from the public way. The addition is smaller but will be partially visible for Morningside Drive. that roof line. Constructing an addition with similar form and massing, yes. Constructing an addition at the rear of the building or at a side elevation as far back on the site as possible, yes. Maintaining the primary facade or principal elevation of a building towards the street elevation. The primary facade will remain, but the roof line for the addition will change. And then that note about using alternate materials as long as the material is lesser. So if we're talking about using lap siding on a brick building, the applicant is proposing hardy siding, concrete block foundation with stucco and the materials to match existing. So we'll have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record. I do want to note, we did receive a letter of support late last night, so it didn't make it in before the deadline, but I did want to make you aware of that.

nice okay tell us where that came from but i appreciate it yeah go ahead my name my name is william hopkins at 120 morningside drive chattanooga i purchased the house 28 years ago in 1998. uh

sure if you just stay i have i have my contractor here too who grew up in the neighborhood by the way i do um comment on the brick the back of the house does have existing um laps are yeah lap siding so could you state your name for the record sorry brant mcgregor thank you Yeah, and you can see the CMU that's existing there, which was, I believe, an addition at one point, and we would be matching that with Stucco.

Okay. Any other comments?

I don't think so.

Okay. Do we have any community comments or comments by other persons? All right. We'll move to commission discussion.

All right. Cassie.

Yes, I am. The question for you guys was, it says on the list of materials, new windows shall match existing windows in style and color. What particular material is that going to be for this one?

Yeah, so I think on the front and the side where it would be visible from the street, we would propose using aluminum clad. On the back of the house, we would use vinyl. Okay.

Okay. I think my request on that would just be that we would get a visual or a final submission of those particular windows, specifically on the front, so that we can make sure that it all makes sense for our purposes here.

Absolutely.

Cassie, would you like that to come back before you or staff review?

I think it's totally fine for it to be a staff review.

Okay, thank you.

Okay. Other comments, questions, commission.

And I guess we, we looked at one just now that didn't have the full story of elevations and maybe this is the same one, although the largest elevation of the addition we don't have, which is the elevation facing the neighbor. I don't think we have it. We have the side elevations for both sides. Oh, never mind. Never mind. I just skipped over it. Sorry. My fault. My fault. We got it. I think on the choice of the brick, even for a foundation, what really makes the front of this house is the brick, and that's a really nice historic brick. I almost wouldn't want to try to match it because I'm afraid no matter how hard someone tries, it's not going to be a good match. We tried.

Trying to match it, I'd rather... That brick does not exist. Yeah.

I would rather have some other material and not try to be the same, so my preference would be to not match it.

For years, I had scoured Chattanooga looking for houses that were demolished so I could pull my truck up there and get some bricks. They're just not out there.

It's a unique house.

Thank you. Any other questions or comments, Commission?

someone like to make a motion do we need to clarify the window issue what's facing front versus what's facing side and or rear yeah i just asked that they would submit the final selection of those windows they said aluminum cloud would be on the front facing the street and that back would be vinyl and my request is that they send those that would be my only stipulation they send those over for staff review i would probably recommend that they be consistent in what they're using

on both on both wherever they're adding windows that would be my opinion um so on the the addition that is the left side of the house existing it's either vinyl or maybe what would be the equivalent of a trailer window currently um so that's where the proposal like we would be On those areas that that may be an original. Well, yeah. Yeah, you can see that's the trailer. That's a trailer window right there on the back side. They made the, the windows are just pieces of glass and then that's also kind of a trailer window and then 2 pieces of flat glass. So that's kind of where one for just a cost savings thing where it's not going to be seen from the street, but also it's, in our minds, still a bit of an improvement from what's there. And then the reason we would go with the aluminum cloud on the front especially is obviously it's seen from the street, and we would want to match what's there.

Well, it's going to match the sunroof side as much as it can. It can't be as tall as that window because the kitchen sink is going to be right. Yeah, yeah, and the two matching windows. I don't be over the kitchen. Yeah, I don't think that's as much of a concern but Skip to your point though.

Just the what last one we were proved had vinyl in its submission for rear Just trying to be consistent without creating any kind of additional misunderstandings if that is the proposal I don't see a real reason to Right request or, you know, ask that. And if it's if your reasoning is that it's this entire edition is got a front side and a backside, I would say we'd probably I would want to be consistent with what we just approved.

Realizing one thing on the windows with this new guidelines, which were still pretty new, and we've said that windows are sort of treated differently in different neighborhoods. Who reviews them in the matrix is different, but I can't find where we have said in different neighborhoods there's actually a different standard to review against. It's just that some neighborhoods allow things to be staff reviewed and others want a commission review. So that's not to do with this project specifically. I'm just making a footnote. look into that at some point. Also, I do have a question. What is the foundation that you're proposing? Is it stucco over CMU or paint over CMU to match?

CMU with stucco painted to match the color of this existing CMU without stucco.

Got it.

So that blue color that we saw in the photos.

You'd have to ask my wife what the actual color. Okay.

Do we, so that would be three materials. Are we okay as a commission having the three materials with the stucco painted, the CMU painted and brick?

The stucco paint is totally not set in stone. We could do something different there if it's preferred.

I think for where this sits in the back, away from everything, I don't see an issue with it.

I think, yeah, if it was going to be affecting such a much more bigger profile in the front, I would have paused, but not where it's going to be.

Yep, go ahead.

make a motion to approve case HC 2690 120 Morningside Drive as submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga City Code chapter 10 article 2 section 1015 e and pursuant to the Chattanooga historical guidelines approval is subject to the following conditions that final window submission is sent in for staff approval do we have a second second in my cliff all in favor

Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.

Thank you all for your time.

Thank you.

Okay, we'll move to our next new business case. This is HC 2691 at 4403 Alabama Avenue in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It is a historic structure circa 1920. The proposed project is an accessory dwelling unit and garage historic zoning history. 2019 there was a fence. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo historic district overlay. And here are the property photos and the neighboring property photos. And then the application information, the site plan there on the left of the proposal, and then the elevation drawing. Here's the floor plan and the roof plan. And then the elevations of that proposed garage ADU. And then the material list here. So Anderson 200 series double hung wood clad or a clad wood window for light quarter glass craftsman style wood doors carriage style aluminum garage door. cementitious lap siding with a six inch reveal, and then the fascia and window trim, wood roof brackets for the garage eyebrow awning, architectural shingles, and then for the deck it'll be pressure treated six by six posts, two by six rail cap, and two by four and two by two pressure treated railing system. A foundation will be stucco with a parge coat and then K-style gutters, and then the driveway decorative P gravel stones for a turnaround at the rear of the house. Again, construct a new secondary structure greater than 120 square feet comes before you all for review. Here you can find page 1117 and page 1113 with those appropriate and inappropriate options. So Chapter 11 for secondary buildings, what's appropriate, using a similar form, materials, colors, and simplified detailing. The applicant is proposing a garage and accessory dwelling unit at the rear of the property. The ADU will have hardy lap siding, a shed dormer to match the primary dwelling, and a carriage-style aluminum garage doors. Locating a secondary building or structure away from the principal entrance or street elevation, the applicant is proposing the garage ADU at the rear of the property. And then using exterior materials for an addition that are present in the existing building, the applicant is proposing a garage and accessory dwelling unit at the rear of the property. And the ADU will have hardy lap siding, a shed dormer, and a carriage style aluminum garage doors. I do want to note there is an existing outbuilding on the property that will be demolished. There's currently a staff review certificate of appropriateness in my queue to remove that. Staff does have the option to approve that if it's more than 50% deteriorated, and they've provided that documentation. And we will have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record, please.

Jason Craven with Larkin Homes, GC, 711 Single Mountain Road. Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37405. Basically, a simple garage ADU. It's going to be 698 square footage on the inside. The height will meet the 24-feet limit. The style on the outside and windows and doors and garage door are to harmonize with the existing structure. Just pretty straightforward. If there's any comments on things you like, that's where it is. The structure is deteriorated pretty significantly. We've documented all the inside deterioration of the inside structure and collapsing. Basically, that stucco is the only thing holding the whole building up. So it's pretty far gone. Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Do we have any community comments or comments by other persons? Okay. We can move to commission discussion.

Okay. Does anyone have any questions or comments?

I see there's also a driveway being proposed. What's the material on that?

It's going to be a decorative P gravel, but it's only going to go to the fence gate. It's not going to carry, uh, see there's decorative P gravel around the back here, but it'll go right there in the back where that actually got a pointer. The laser, it'll go right here in this area is where it will stop. And then this will stay existing in terms of the two lane going out to the front. So on the site plan, if we can go there, it shows. it'll be this area here kind of stopping right there then change that but it'll be stopped right there okay any other questions I got a terrible question you go to the image of the garage is being torn down

What are those tiles? Is that diamond-shaped tile work in stucco on the sides of the garage?

Yeah, so there was a tile gentleman that owned it at one time, and he stuck tile everywhere. Okay. Like on the front paving pathway, he stuck some tile on the front. I mean, it's just he put it everywhere. And inside the house when the new owners had bought it, He had tiled the majority of the floors, and it was just kind of a, she's restored the inside. So that's the remnants of whoever the JTT tile guy was.

Is the compass rose still on the front porch, just out of curiosity?

I think, yeah, that's the one that has. That's a cool feature. Yeah, it's definitely tile everywhere.

But that's a staff review, no demolition.

Yes, as long as it's deteriorated beyond 50%, I can review it.

I think it's important to comment here that there's really very little public. I mean, there is just, I guess, a driveway or an alleyway behind it, but very little visibility, I think.

Yeah. And that yard, the grade is below. There's a wall retaining wall in the backyard. So it is sunk down and there's a fence in the back. So there's a lot of screen even for that.

I think on the design, there's a real shallow roof pitch on the back half of the building and a real steep on the front to kind of make it look like you have a gable. And that may seem inappropriate if that were a very visible rear elevation. Maybe not. But I think in this case, it's not worth talking about. No one's back there. You can't really get back there.

Looks like a good plan. I'm ready to make a motion. I don't see any conditions. Commission, do you agree? I make a motion to approve case number HZ-26-91 at 4403 Alabama Avenue as submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga City Code Chapter 10, Article 2, Section 10-15E and pursuant to the Chattanooga Historic Guidelines and This motion is without conditions.

Second. Seconded by Nathan. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.

Okay, next new business case. This is HZ2693 at 5101 Tennessee Avenue in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It's a historic structure circa 1950. And the applicant is proposing to add a coating and paint the masonry. Historic zoning history, HZ2693. There is a rear porch addition. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo historic district overlay. And here are the property photos showing the existing conditions. And there's that rear porch addition that you all had reviewed and approved previously. And then the neighboring property photos. Description of work. So the applicant wants to paint the exterior of the home, possibly painting existing brick due to poorly performed brick repairs that are not consistent. Planning on using a product manufactured by Remobio, a mineral-based lime wash paint that allows the brick to breathe. And then here are some examples of masonry with painting or coding in St. Elmo. Some of these are just foundations, but another similar property from the same time period there on the left. Okay, and so for the staff report and the new guidelines to paint previously unpainted brick or stone, that is a commission level review, so that's why it is here in front of you today. You can see the inappropriate options for masonry and stucco circled there on the top right. So applying a water repellent or waterproof coating to exposed above grade weathertight historic masonry or concrete without CHZC approval of details and material effectiveness. Applying a water repellent or waterproof coating to intact masonry, including paint that can trap moisture. And then there at the bottom, painting previously unpainted historic brick or stone. And then another section from the masonry and stucco painting guidelines. So the painting of previously unpainted masonry is strongly discouraged. However, if it's been compromised through prior sandblasting, moisture infiltration, or the use of a harsh chemical, painting with a mineral silicate paint can provide a degree of protection. And we'll just have the applicant talk a little bit more about the proposed coding. And we can have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record, please.

Yes, my name is Josh Cooper, 5101 Tennessee Avenue, St. Elmo.

Did you have any comments on the proposed material?

No, the Roma Bio is a mineral-based paint that allows the brick to still breathe. I think a lot of the problems with painting brick is moisture can get trapped behind that and it becomes a problem. So it's a problem. It basically bonds with the brick and becomes part of the brick.

Great. Thank you. Do we have any public comments or comments by other persons? Okay. Just state your name and address, please, for the record.

Yes, Denise Shaw, 1402 West 54th Street. I have come before this commission kind of complaining a bit about when standards are applied to post-World War II era homes and that we don't have very many that are worthy of saving. This house has been always on my list of ones that I think is important. a high value post-World War II home. So the idea of concealing the brick behind a coating is not favorable to me as honoring the history of this house. And knowing that there are sealants available that can provide the waterproofing without changing the look of the brick. So this is a problem that could be solved without concealing the brick altogether. So that's all I have.

Great. Thank you. You have an opportunity to respond if you'd like. Thank you. Any other community comments? Okay. We can move to commission discussion.

Okay. Does anyone have any questions or comments for the applicant?

I just want to thank you for reading the guidelines carefully and bringing this before the commission, because there's a lot of people who would have just painted it.

Thanks for that. Appreciate it.

Cassie, can we go back to the screen? I think it's the, or the next slide. Even the slide after that, it looks like there's been quite a bit of repair work done on the brick itself. I'm seeing a lot of variations in the brick, so I'm just curious about the history behind that or if you know.

The big hole there to the left of that door was what looked to me to be a package unit. Air conditioning system used to sit there and be a large vent. so that had been closed in not sure about the two bricks above there to the left of the door maybe there was there must have been a hole or something that was penetrated through the brick I think a door up on the previous slide there was a door that was removed and very shoddily repaired by the mason um so yeah that was just some alterations i guess to the exterior a question for the applicant is there water infiltration occurring in the building now we do have water infiltration i can't guarantee that it's all subject to the brick it seems to be mostly subterranean water that comes down off the hill beyond on the other side of tennessee um so i can't say for certain that the brick is compromised but we do have water issues in our crawl space and is the majority of the issue or the brick that's been repaired is it primarily on the back It is primarily on the back, yes.

And so there's no evidence in the front, really, where you've had to repoint or do anything like that, right?

There were some vents on the front that were patched. I don't think that I have pictures of those. They're down low, really, kind of behind the landscape line. Well, there's one, but the front of the house has two or three of those locations as well, but they're probably hidden by landscaping. Yeah, I see it right there.

I will say this house is a corner with that rear Linwood Avenue behind you as well, so it does have three right-of-ways around it.

For what it's worth, this was originally a duplex. I guess I don't know if that matters for anything at all. We've renovated the interior to turn it into a single-family home.

Cassie, have you had a chance to review the product that's being proposed?

No, I have not. I'm sorry.

Piper.

For what it's worth, Remabio is a really great product. We've used it several times. Just stating that on the record.

I've used it on multiple projects with great success as well. It's a quality product.

So would it be considered in, I guess, accordance with the guidelines of water repellent? Piper?

It allows the brick to breathe. So if you, for what it's worth, you can think about it as a, it's tinted, but almost in a stucco finish, but it allows it to breathe. So water can come through itself. So it's not water repellent. It's just painting. It's, it's a way for brick to breathe and live with paint on it.

Brick in and of itself is porous, right? So it will absorb moisture and then release it back out. And so the Roma Bio allows it to continue to do that process without trapping moisture behind the paint.

Gotcha. And I assume this would be a permanent product. There would be no sandblasting it off if that wanted to be done in the future?

I would assume it could be removed, but it probably would be... A process. Damaging.

It can be sandblasted off and it can be removed, but it will end up looking like a German schmear with remnants unless you really get in there. It could damage the brick, but it can be removed.

Gotcha.

Just looking at the guidelines here. It's hard for me to get past the very last item under inappropriate options, which is just painting previously unpainted historic brick or stone. There's some talk about water repellent, waterproof coatings, which I assume that generally could be transparent. And there's talk about if stone is compromised by having been sandblasted, which we don't know if we have any sandblasted buildings, but certainly they come up and they're awful. You know, water comes in everywhere if you sandblast them. But I don't see anything that's other than addressing previously unpainted historic brick other than simply it's not appropriate. And I don't see evidence that this building has had a very adverse treatment. I see some poor workmanship, which certainly can be reworked in those areas, but I don't see any evidence of sandblasting or use of harsh chemicals, something like that, where we have a brick that just can't function as a brick anymore. It looks like we have a brick that's functioning as a brick still.

Okay. Does the precedence that exists throughout St. Elmo have anything to do with my desire to paint my brick? It exists almost within every block that I walk around. Those houses, I assume, and some of them I know, were not originally painted. I guess maybe they're the ones that didn't ask.

I was going to say I could investigate to see if these were code enforcement issues and then they remained. But I don't have that off the top of my head.

I think also these are newer guidelines, if I'm correct, to where this spells it out more than we've ever had. And that's with the neighborhood input of that aspect. So I do know the last guideline did not spell it out as much as the new guidelines do. And those were all previous cases.

Yeah, I think I would say that these guidelines, I feel like having been to some of those very long meetings, all of this was very carefully vetted. And, of course, our desire is to do what the neighborhood requested when these guidelines were originated recently over a pretty long process. I mean, it's there.

Okay. Anything else?

i guess just curious if it would make a difference at all if all my immediate neighbors said that they were more than happy to have this done and does that matter at all or is that mute to the conversation i mean we'll certainly hear it but the guidelines as cliff said are are pretty clear okay did i say a comment todd

No, I was just thinking of, you know, with the guidelines pertaining to the whole neighborhood, you know, to give a voice to just immediate neighbors, uh, doesn't really function well, you know, with the overall concept of trying to take the entire neighborhood into consideration. Of course, the big rule of thumb and preservation is to not paint brick because once you do, you really can't go back. I mean, you can try to sandblast, but it can be very detrimental to the structure. That's why I was asking about the repairs. I mean, I live in a 1909 house, and it is painted, but it was also hit by an airplane, which did a lot of damage to the brick. And so that was the only way forward with that particular property. So I think the guidelines for us now are just in alignment with Secretary of Interior standards and what's typical practice and preservation.

Okay. Do we have any other questions?

Yeah, apparently because I took the old gutters off the house to replace them, I have to ask for permission to put gutters back up. Could that be addressed as well? I can review your gutter, the gutters. Oh, okay. That's a separate. Staff review. Okay, I didn't.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Does someone want to make a motion?

I can. Okay. I make a motion to deny case HZ 2693-5101 Tennessee Avenue as submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga City Code Chapter 10, Article 2, Section 10 through 15E and pursuant to Chattanooga Historic Guidelines.

Do we have a second?

Second.

Seconded by Todd. All in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Motion carries. Thank you all. Thank you.

All right, we'll move to our next new business case, HZ2694 at 4419 Alabama Avenue in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It's not a historic structure, circa 2018. Proposed project is a porch addition outbuilding and to demolish the existing garage. And then the historic zoning history is back in 2018 for the new construction and then a window and a retaining wall in 2018 as well. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo Historic District overlay. And here are property photos showing the existing conditions and the neighboring property photos. Here's the site plan of that existing conditions and showing what's to be demolished. And then that proposed site plan. And here is that carport structure that's going to be up on Guild Trail. New porch railings there in columns on the right-hand side. And then the new construction addition at the top. And then the workout room and cabana there at the bottom. And the elevations, so the view from the street. Breakfast room addition in the new porch at the rear. And the view from the new porch for that cabana structure. And some elevations. And then the material lists, brick skirting to match existing, gutters and downspouts to match, siding to match, windows to match, roof shingles to match, and then a standing seam metal roof at both the freestanding new buildings on the site, carport exposed foundation walls covered with faux stone, and a carport post exposed structure with faux timber look. And then staff report. Here's that description of work. So modifications to the existing front porch, sidewalk, new breakfast room addition, new rear porch addition, a new freestanding workout room addition, and a new carport access from Guild Trail and demo the existing two-car garage. So you can see from the guidelines, new construction, appropriate treatments. Pulled this from the new construction section since we're looking at something from 2018. um construct a building with architectural element or projection designed and detailed similarly or more simply to those found on neighboring buildings and construct porch floor and ceiling heights at heights similar to those found on the neighboring buildings you can see the existing porch columns and then the proposed ones there at the right And then for the accessory buildings, to construct a new secondary structure greater than 120 square feet is coming before you all. The secondary building section starts on page 1112 of the guidelines. And there's the appropriate and inappropriate options. So, again, Chapter 11 for secondary buildings for appropriate using a similar form, materials, colors, and simplified detailing. The applicant is proposing a carport along Guild Trail and an accessory structure at the rear of the dwelling. The carport is a simple frame structure with a gable roof, and the accessory structure has a lean-to style roof. Locating a secondary building or structure away from the principal entrance or street elevation, the applicant is proposing a carport along Guild Trail and an accessory structure to the rear of the dwelling. And then using exterior materials for an addition that are both present in the existing building, the applicant is proposing to use similar materials on both structures, including hardy siding. And I will note there is a proposed plunge pool on the plans as well, but that's something that staff can review. And then for the additions on the house, so construct an addition more than 150 square feet. This is coming before you all. And then the appropriate criteria for additions, new construction and demolition, locating additions at the rear or side elevations. The addition is proposed at the rear. Constructing additions that can be removed in the future without permanently damaging the historic building. This is not applicable. CONSTRUCTING IN ADDITION THAT IS SMALLER THAN THE EXISTING BUILDING OR IN A SIMILAR SCALE THAT'S NOT PROMINENTLY VISIBLE. THE ADDITION IS SMALLER AND TO THE REAR. CONSTRUCTING IN ADDITION WITH SIMILAR FORM IN MASSING, YES. CONSTRUCTING IN ADDITION AT THE REAR OF THE BUILDING OR SIDE ELEVATION AS FAR BACK ON THE SITE AS POSSIBLE, YES. And maintaining that primary facade towards the street, yes. And then using alternate materials as long as the material is lesser. Again, this is talking about our historic structure. So the applicant's proposing to match similar materials to the existing dwelling. So we'll have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record.

Cassie, really quick, I have to roll off.

Okay.

Thank you.

denise shaw i am at 1402 west 54th street if you would go to the new site plan for me that would be fantastic yes um so this property has a very steep slope across the rear of it um so uh the and then there was a garage in the back of the um the house and in order to have as much usable space for outdoor entertainment they wish to take down this tall garage and then move their parking to the rear. The garage form is its own sort of design. It does not trying to mimic the house because they are so far apart from each other. but also because the roof lines of the house are so much more steep that the lower slope on the Guild Trail side creates a more diminutive, a smaller building on the back so that the scale is more appropriate to Guild Trail. There is a water drainage easement that runs through the property as well. And part of what we're trying to do is be very careful and mindful of where that existing underground infrastructure is. So we are limited to only adding to the back of the house where the garage was. So the addition to the house is fairly minimal just to get more functional space and then add the shed style. PORCH AS WELL AS A SMALL LITTLE OUT BUILDING WHICH WILL THEN SERVE AS THEIR WORKOUT ROOM AND EXTRA DRIED-IN STORAGE NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE AN ENCLOSED GARAGE.

GREAT. THANK YOU. DO WE HAVE ANY COMMUNITY COMMENTS OR COMMENTS BY OTHER PERSONS? OKAY. WE CAN MOVE TO COMMISSION DISCUSSION.

OKAY. ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS FOR THE AFFICANT?

WHAT'S THE RETAINING WALL MATERIAL ON THE CARPORT?

This one would be the faux stone. Our contractor is here to say exactly what that is. Is the question more about whether it's the block stone version of a retaining wall versus an applied stone on top of it?

Yeah, mostly just wondering what the finish is going to be.

1606 West 51st Street, Chattanooga. So we would just do a CMU wall and then have just stone veneer, but we haven't selected the actual stone yet. But we would do that and we could get that staff approved, no problem.

Go ahead.

Another question, there's a plunge pool. Will there be a fence, and can that be staff-reviewed, or is that a wall? I can't quite, for some reason, the plans are blurry. I can't zoom in enough to see.

The pool, the fencing is on, I think, the inspiration pictures. Right, one more. I think it's on mine. So we're talking about having this kind of fencing material around it, and then on the landscape plan. they have called out the fencing in this turquoise outline so that the privacy is kept close to the house and that the existing fencing, which is like full wire fencing, type of fencing is gonna stay intact until one day when they replace it and get staff approval for that But the intention is to try and keep it close to the house and as minimal as possible and not next to the up against right-of-ways That is something that I'm I can review though And just another comment from I'm not sure if the picture shows that this site is incredibly narrow and almost none of that is visible and

from the from the front of the house.

On the stone foundation, that's only on the far rear building, right? That's not there's no stone foundation on the addition to the house.

Correct. We would be matching the brick veneer on the front of the property.

Okay, nice and

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, I know we used to have a pretty stringent guidelines around horizontal rail, but I think those are gone. Is that correct?

Yes. It's been updated. They are allowed on like a new construction or a mid-century. Got it. But we wouldn't want it on one of our Victorian properties.

I'm ready to make a motion then. Okay. You want to take this?

Were there any conditions. All right, I make a motion to approve case H C 26944419 Alabama Avenue has submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga city code chapter 10 article to section 10 15 and pursuant to the Chattanooga historic guidelines, no conditions.

Do we have a second? Second. Seconded by Cassie. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.

All right, we'll move to our next new business case. This is HZ2695 at 1709 West 43rd Street in the St. Elmo neighborhood. It is a historic structure, circa 1920s, sorry about that. The proposed project is an addition in the accessory structure demolition. So we've seen this property a few times before, but the scope of work has changed significantly, so now it's back in front of you. So we'll go through the new scope. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo Historic District overlay. And here are the property photos. And the neighboring property photos. Here is that site plan showing the existing conditions. And then the new construction floor plan and site plan. And the renderings showing that new addition at the back right. And then the proposed changes to the front porch. And then the elevations with the materials called out. So new brackets to support the extended roof overhang flats on railing tongue and groove decking at the existing porch. Uh, the transom lights and, uh, trim is to remain, but a new craftsman style front door is proposed. And then there's that side and west elevation showing the addition. And then the other side, uh, east elevation showing that addition at the rear and the rear elevation. And then the material list, pressure treated wood tongue and groove, decking at the porch, new porch columns per exterior elevations, parge coat over existing brick foundations, parge coat over new concrete foundation walls, one by 12 horizontal trim at existing porch and house floor framing, asphalt shingle roof, beadboard ceiling at the porch to remain, pressure treated wood railing, one by four flat sawn balusters with cutout detail, salvaged and reinstalled existing windows at the original house. New vinyl-clad wood windows at the addition at the rear, new craftsman-style entry door, and a new full-late entry doors at the addition. Note that the existing trim at the windows, doors, and siding to remain at the house, existing siding to remain with repairs to be made at poor installation by previous owners. And so the staff report, we're going to look at Chapter 8 for porches, stoops, and decks for appropriate preservation-sensitive best practices. Replacing missing or deteriorated materials with similar new materials. Avoid replacement of a wood railing with a metal or vinyl railing system. The applicant is proposing flat sawn railing, horizontal trim at the front of the porch gable, new brackets, new window at the gable similar to other gable vents and windows in the neighborhood, and new board and batten siding on the front porch gable. Repairing damaged elements using standard repair techniques for that material. Applicant to confirm if any materials and elements can be repaired or if it will all be replacement. Removing later alterations and restoring the porch or stoop to its original historic appearance conforming with the architectural style. The mid-century porch elements will be removed. I think they've already been removed. Replacing only original elements that cannot be repaired using elements of the same material size profile and other visual characteristics. We'll have the applicant confirm if any of the material or elements can be repaired. We know they are going to replace them. And then there's some examples here from Chapter 3, which has your architectural styles of craftsman and bungalow. And then for the addition, this is the addition review. Constructed addition more than 150 square feet is a commission level review. So we've seen these multiple times today. Here are the appropriate criteria. So locating the addition at the rear or side in a manner that's clearly subordinate. The addition is at the rear. Constructing additions that can be removed in the future without permanently damaging the historic building. Yes, we'll have the applicant confirm if the rear windows will be reused. They are some of the only remaining historic windows. The drawings show that the addition will impact those. Constructing an addition that is smaller than the existing building or in a similar scale that's not prominently visible. The addition is smaller and to the rear of the dwelling. And constructing an addition with similar form and massing, yes. Constructing an addition at the rear or at a side as far back as possible, yes. Maintaining the primary facade towards the street, yes. And then using alternate materials on additions as long as the material is lesser. The applicant is proposing similar materials to the existing dwelling. And so we'll have the applicant's presentation, if you could state your name and address for the record, please.

Yes, Denise Shaw, 1402 West 54th Street. If you could go to the overall site plan first. This one? Sure, that'll work right there. So this lot is a triangular shape. And it has an addition at the rear. I'm not sure when that addition had come into existence. It was never completed. It has water coming into it. It would take heroic efforts to get it to be waterproofed as well as it would to become a useful space. And then its proximity to property lines make it so that you actually can't put openings in any of those walls. My plea that I made to the property owners is can we just please not work with that thing anymore? It's actually working against us, not for us. So with the amount of time and effort it would take to bring that up to something that we could use and it would still be an odd building. We decided to go ahead and get rid of that and then move all of the addition to be right snug up next to the house. And with that, there was a little old sunroom that was here and it had some historic windows in it. And I can come back to that in just a moment. But I do want to point out that all of the windows that we are installing are actually were removed, stored on site, and are being reinstalled. So those are the historic windows that are going to be reutilized. Because of the shape of the lot, we have this really constrained area that we could put in addition. So that is why and where this addition landed where it did. And the function of the space, I live in a small house myself. In order to leverage small spaces, it has to be organized properly. exquisitely, like you have to have very careful, thoughtful consideration of where every single thing is going to go so you can live in your small house. So again, this is us being backed literally into a corner and it's the rear of the house. And we were trying to honor the form of the original front of the house while also upgrading the porch to have more architectural elements that is more in keeping with the house of that era. Unfortunately, most of those have been stripped away. So this is us doing more of a renovation. of what might have been there. We don't know what was there. So this is our gesture to make a really stellar front porch on the front of this house that has been a bit neglected. The addition at the rear is meant to be an extension of the roof line. and follow the roof line for a portion. And then in order to maintain that roof line and not have really low bearing walls or plate heights on the edges, the roof pitch changes just for this little stretch of wall. There are these historic existing stone retaining walls that are doing important work of keeping the soil on the neighboring property in place, and so we are also trying to avoid any disruption along that line. I believe that answers all of your questions.

Great, thank you. Do we have any community comments or comments by other persons? Okay, we can move to commission discussion.

Okay, do we have any questions or comments from that for the applicant? Nathan?

We've seen this house so many times and I'm so excited to see a plan that feels very realistic. And, uh, I don't, I don't see any issues with it, but open to other comments.

I think we already talked about that addition being non-historic and we're fine with it being torn down. I don't need to rehash that.

Someone like to make a motion.

I'll take it. I make a motion to approve case HZ2695-1709, West 43rd Street, as submitted pursuant to the Chattanooga City Code, Chapter 10, Article 2, Section 1015E, and pursuant to the Chattanooga Historic Guidelines, no conditions.

Do we have a second? Second. Seconded by Cliff. All in favor? Aye. Thank you. Okay, motion carries.

Thank you.

We didn't previously, but we need to recognize that Piper has left the meeting.

Thank you. Alright, there's our last case for today. This is HZ 2696 at 4313 St. Elmo Avenue. In the St. Elmo neighborhood, it is not a historic structure. Unfortunately, the historic building that was here burned down. It's a vacant lot and the proposed project is new construction. So here's an aerial of the property and then the property within the St. Elmo historic district overlay and the property photos. And here's one from winter. And the neighboring property photos. And this is the site plan provided by the applicant showing that new proposed new construction and then the garage at the back, as well as those new parking areas. And here is that property overlaid with the neighboring existing footprints at 4311 and 4317. And they've got the approximate setbacks and widths there as well. And here's the survey of the property. And then the front elevation showing that proposed rear garage and the front elevation of the new construction here. That was, I believe the rear elevation, here's the side and the other side, and then the proposed garage structure. And then the exterior material list, so asphalt roof shingle, porch roof, standing seam, metal roof, cutters will be K-style and dark bronze, columns to be wood timber brackets, exterior stone, ashlar cut, bed depth stone, smoky mountain ashlar cut, porch flooring, two-inch stone ledge surrounding and porch border to match the chimney cap, porch stairs, two-inch stone treads and stone risers, to match the water table stone ledge and chimney cap exterior siding and paint color it's a horizontal six inch lap siding and then the exterior accent will be a shake siding six inch shake and then here is a rendering from the front page of those drawings. And then the staff report, so new construction for a primary building obviously has to come before you all for review. And then you can see the appropriate and inappropriate options on page 1116 and 1117 in your guidelines. And then some specific call-outs from that chapter for new construction, looking at scale for height and width. And for vertical and horizontal, the new construction appropriate use of materials to match visual qualities of materials with the overall character of the materials predominantly found on surrounding buildings. New construction appropriate use of trim and details. Design a building with details consistent or compatible with historic buildings but not copying them. And then new construction appropriate treatments for architectural elements and projections. Construct a building with an architectural element or projection designed and detailed similarly or more simply to those found in the neighborhood. Construct porch floor and ceiling heights at heights similar to those found on neighboring buildings. And then facade proportions, construct a new building whose facade height and width proportions are similar to existing adjacent buildings and use similar proportion sizes, locations, and numbers of windows and doors as adjacent sites. And so we'll have the applicant's presentation. If you could just state your name and address for the record, please.

Hey, Cassie, I'm just going to put on the record that I'm recusing myself from voting on this case.

Thank you. Amber Clark, 4313 St. Elmo Avenue. Great.

Did you have any additional comments at this time?

I'm just here to answer any questions.

Okay. Thank you. Do we have any community comments?

Okay.

You just state your name and address for the record, please.

Denise Shaw, 1402 West 54th Street. As you all know, St. Elmo Avenue is one of our most prominent and showcase examples of our great historic neighborhood and the character of our neighborhood. This house design does not seem to really take into account, to really consider the architecture of our neighborhood. To me, looks like a suburban America anywhere, USA. House it there's there's nothing that says st. Elmo about this and I just I don't think I'm even saying anything that you all wouldn't also agree with so I think I'm just saying it as a Person in the community in the neighborhood that feels like this is not in alignment with what we want to see in our neighborhood Thank you

all right thank you do we have any other community comments i believe this um the public comment that you received in your email this was one of the cases that they made some notes about the applicant you have an opportunity to respond or we can move to commission discussion okay we'll move to commission discussion can you refresh me on an email was it positive or negative

While she's doing that, do we have others that want to have questions or comments? Nathan?

I've got one. comment and two questions first comment is the driveway layout that is being shown here I think is not approvable page 10 8 locating parking using front yard areas for parking that are prominently visible and or providing no screening for parking areas visible from alleyways so that little hammerhead that's parallel to San Elmo Avenue I think needs to be removed as a condition of any motion And then two questions. What material are the windows? Do we have a material selection for that?

I think we left that off, so that's my apologies. We're leaning towards the Marvin Elevate line, which is the exterior is a proprietary ultra flex fiberglass and interior is wood.

And then my other question is these shutters on the front doors, are those intended to be operable?

No, sir. Also to the Marvin Elevate 2, the line that we're leaning towards the grid padding, SDLs are on the exterior of the glass.

This is the comment that we received about case HCE 2696 via email.

Okay, thank you.

you pull up the neighboring photos also okay that's for context you have other comments nathan yeah cassie can you um i'm struggling to interpret

the guidelines around shutters on page nine 14 and nine 15. Uh, and then also on nine 12, I guess this is not just for Cassie, but for the whole commission on nine 12, it talks about how shutters were used operably, but then there's a last little sentence saying in the mid century, non-operable wall mounted shutters were installed as a decorative element, but then in the appropriate and inappropriate sections, it says it's appropriate to, to retain shutters and it's inappropriate to install refurbished shutters. And an inappropriate says do not remove historic shutters or install shutters where they did not exist historically. I'm just curious. I know the previous guidelines talked about shutters should be operable. This seems a little more vague and I could read it either way, honestly.

And I do think that Chapter 9 is more specifically referencing our historic structures. Not that we can't use it for this, but I do want to make that note.

I seem to recall that we've allowed decorative shutters so long as if they were to shut, if you can envision them shutting, they would completely conceal the window. So if you've got a 36-inch wide window, you don't want one-foot shutters. So to that, do those shutters, would they conceal if they were to enclose?

I don't think we have this spec'd out yet, but we can certainly look at that.

And on the drawing, it appears to me that they are of operable size, if that makes sense.

Yeah, but both, kind of moving from the shutters, I have both sort of a stylistic and an overall shape and proportion concern. this house is kind of a Tudor revival kind of woodland, which can be quite nice style in some places. But just as I look down in street view, the view of houses in San Elmo, when you had, I think I was heading south on San Elmo Avenue. And then I look at the, what's labeled as the right elevation. And I think, you know, heading south, really the right elevation is a, quite a large blank wall with a very shallow slope fronting, um, We can go to that right elevation, that one. Yeah, I mean, that's a very prominent view as you drive down St. Elmo Avenue. And I know that there is a piece of trim, I guess, a little piece of roof put on there to make an image of a shallower roof, but it looks like it's just added, and that's something that's stylistically what I could approve yet. I mean, really, if you're driving down, you know, these houses are a little further apart than some of them. This is a main thoroughfare. You'll predominantly see this house as you're approaching it and only for a minute as you pass it if you're in a car or even if you're walking, if you're seeing it from your neighbor's house. To me, this isn't the facade that really matches the other facades that are there. I do appreciate having the, I think the fronts of the sides line up. The porches appear to line up with this eight feet depth. I mean, that porch alignment is important, but I think that I really don't think this, especially the side of the house here, we have the really shallow slope match meets what's in the guidelines on, I guess, 11.16 page.

Am I correct, too, that we're seeing a parking spot in front of the house on the cycling? Yeah, I mentioned that at the beginning.

I think that needs to be removed.

Yeah, we designed it that way because St. Elmo Avenue is an extremely busy road. So we're giving the future homeowners a place to turn around. Not so much for parking, but just a place to safely turn around to get back onto St. Elmo Avenue. In our original design, we were going to do a half circle. But after speaking back with TDOT, you have to have 200 foot of frontage. So aesthetically, it was going to look more pleasing to be able to provide that safety there. So we had to come back in.

Any other? What is the square footage of this home?

It's roughly around 4,300 square feet.

Commissioner, I've got a meeting at noon. I'm going to exit now.

Thank you.

Are we going to lose quorum? No.

We're still good.

One, two, well, no.

Cassie's recused herself. So if Todd and Cliff both leave, we'll lose quorum.

Well, I can make five more minutes.

Okay.

I mean, I feel like I would like a deferral because I like building a house here. It's a good size house. It could be a good shape house. I just think stylistically it's not what we can approve. It's not a style that matches what's there. And I think there's some side elevations there. I wish the side elevation, especially that side where thought through as much as the front elevation has been, I think I would just leave it at that.

Um, okay. So just so I'm clear, you guys want me to review the side elevation and the, um, I guess to remove the front, um, driveway where they can turn around. Is there anything else that we need to address?

I'm torn on the comments about the garage roof from the email. I feel like there's more thought.

I wasn't able, I didn't receive that email.

Yeah, so it came to the historic zoning email. So the same way that folks can come public, leave public comments during the meeting, they can email them in ahead of time. Okay.

We can email that to the applicant.

I can share it with you, though.

Yeah, I think there was a community comment that had to do with sort of the style of the house. This is not really a style that exists in St. Elmo.

Yeah, it sounds like Cliff's comments are about the architectural style itself. When looking at St. Elmo Avenue, we might see something like this style more in Ferger Place, honestly, than on this stretch of St. Elmo Avenue.

We have any other comments or observations? Would we like to move for a deferral maybe?

Is there any way that I can make some adjustments and send them back over to you without deferring?

No, because it's new construction, it'll have to come back here.

Someone want to make that motion?

I'm very conflicted. I do want to make the motion to defer 30 days. I just wish would it be appropriate to continue commission discussion after we lose quorum?

We won't be able to. We won't be able to vote. We won't be able to act after that.

Correct. I mean, the action is going to be deferral either way, but I would like to provide the applicant more direction on what needs to be changed. I feel like we've been fairly vague so far. I agree. I would like to provide more commission discussion if possible, but recognizing we're about to lose quorum, I'd like to make the motion to defer 30 days immediately. I'll leave that up to the chair.

Any comments on that, city attorney?

Okay.

Either way, motion to defer 30 days.

Well, if we don't second and vote on it, it'll defer anyway. Actually, what happens if we lose quorum? It just defers? Yeah.

Yeah.

That sounds like it's inevitable.

I'm going to second that motion. Okay.

All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? All right. Motion is deferred to defer is passed.

But while we are all together, is it reasonable to just say to survey immediate homes in that area as far as materials and shapes? Yes. Is it reasonable to just say that it's the architectural style that's an issue and to review homes within the immediate area to look for inspiration as far as roof slopes, sidings, things like that?

I think that's reasonable guidance.

Thank you. And then just quickly, one staff update. You can see we have two new city attorneys here. Andrew Trundle has taken a new position with Hamilton County. So we have Elizabeth and Ryan here. And I think one of the two of you will be our staff attorney.

I will be the staff attorney primarily assigned to your board. I apologize I got here late. I had a hearing this morning that was supposed to take all day. Ryan graciously agreed to step in for me. He will always be my backup. And if not, Ryan, we will find somebody else. We're kind of in blocks right now in the city attorney's office. So I'm really sorry we didn't get a chance to introduce ourselves to you beforehand, but we're willing.

Thank you so much. And I think we need a motion to adjourn.

We have a motion to adjourn. So moved. So moved. We have a second. All in favor. Aye. Thank you.

I had a miss last week, or last month.

I have a question to reach your