Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Hello. Welcome to the Tuesday, October 14, Historic District Commission. We are expecting a couple of other commissioners, but we're going to get started. And they'll join us as soon as they are here. So the first thing that we need to do this evening is elect temporary officers. So Nancy and I both have timed out as officers in our current positions. And so we're going to have elections at the end of the meeting tonight. But because the September meeting was canceled, we need to take care of that first. So I'd like to and Kevin, I think I can do this make a motion that Nancy and I serve as chair and vice chair for this meeting. Okay. So all in favor, say aye, please. I second

an aye.

Okay. Thank you. Second and an aye. Aye. Okay. Excellent. Thank you very much. So we're going to go ahead. So Nancy and I will act as officers for this meeting. Hello. No worries. Okay, I'm going to take actually, perfect. I'm going wait just a second. No worries. You have perfect timing because I was going to take roll call. So Nancy. Here. Glenn. Here. David. Laura. Here. And Don. Here. And we're expecting Josh, but we have quorum, so we're going to keep moving.

Sharnik or Anna Scott, if you would please read procedures into the record.

I'll now read into the record the following. The commission operates under NC general statutes one sixty d dash nine forty, which gives local governments historic preservation authority and the Chapel Hill Land Use Management Ordinance, including Article III, which established the local historic districts and sets forth regulations governing them, and the Chapel Hill Historic District's design principles and standards, which sets forth standards for changes in the historic districts, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Chapel Hill Historic District Commission, as well as the significance reports from all three historic districts and photographs. I also call to your attention each of the applications and associated materials in your agenda packet. All of these items are hereby entered into the record. Thank you.

Thank you, Anna Scott.

And I will

now read the public charge. The advisory board pledges its respect to the public. The body asked the public to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner, both with the body and with fellow members of the public. Should any member of the body or any member of the public fail to observe this charge at any time, the chair will ask the offending person to leave the meeting until that individual regains personal control. Should decorum fail to

be restored, the chair will recess the meeting until genuine commitment to this public charge is observed.

Okay. Moving on to the next item on the agenda is approval of the agenda. So Shanika and Anna Scott distributed the agenda well in advance of the meeting. Were there any questions about the agenda for tonight?

I move approval as submitted.

Thank you. Thank you. So Nancy moves to approve, and David second. All in favor, please say aye.

Aye. I

think that was unanimous, none opposed. So the approval of the agenda was secured. Thank you. Announcements. Anna Scott and Shanika, do you have any announcements?

No, we don't.

Okay. Any member of the commission have an announcement?

I have one, unfortunately. This will be my last meeting. This will be my last meeting as a commissioner of the historic district commission because my wife and I have bought a house that is unfortunately outside of township boundaries, which will make me ineligible as soon as we move in. Congratulations.

And we're sorry that you're leaving us, but thank you for your service. Very much appreciate that and for you coming tonight as well. Any other announcements? Nope. Okay. Thank you, David. Anna, Scott, Shanika, any petitions? No. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is approval of the minutes. So the August 12 minutes were attached to the agenda when distributed to the commission. Were there any questions about the minutes?

I was not at that meeting, but I did review the agenda, the materials presented, and I reviewed the video of the meeting. Great.

Thank you for that diligence.

And I would like to reinforce what the staff has said many, many times. Just please speak into the mic.

We'll remind everybody to do that tonight. If there is no other questions about the minutes from the August 12 meeting, could I ask for an approval a motion to approve and then a second for those minutes?

So moved. Thank you,

David. Second.

Thank you, Don. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. Unanimously approved. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is administrative certificate of approval and maintenance work request. I think there was is there anything you wanted to draw attention to, Shanika and Anna Scott? That was really just information purposes. No. Okay. Thank you for that. Next item on the agenda is the consent agenda for Kevin, think we can approve these together. That's great. So these are the written decision in the COA placards for 208 Hillsborough Street and 603 East Franklin Street.

I would ask for a member of the commission to approve those, the written decision and the COA placards. And then a second, please.

Move to approve the consent agenda.

Thank you. David?

Second.

Thank you. Nancy, all in favor please say aye.

Aye.

All opposed? So that passed unanimously. Thank you very much. Okay. So we're now going to move on to item number five on the agenda, which is two eighteen Wilson Street.

Is there anyone here to present on 218 Wilson Street?

So you can sign in here, speak into the mic, and you have presenter mode here. The commission can see that screen right in front of you right here. So they'll be looking

down. Thank you. Hello.

Hey there.

My name is Phil Shostak.

Thank you, Mr. Shostak. I'm going to read a statement. And if you agree with that statement, if you would please state your name and say I so affirm. Okay. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the reference application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth I so affirm. I affirm. And your name?

I affirm. Phil Shostak.

Thank you, Mr. Shostak. Please go ahead. Thank you.

Before we get started, should we do conflicts of interest?

Thank you for that reminder, Kevin. Does anybody on the commission need to talk about a conflict of interest, an authorized site visit? Nope. Okay. Thank you, Kevin, for that reminder. Please go ahead.

All right. Thank you. This is a special project for the town and the university. The Carolina Community Garden is a pretty special place right off of Cameron. If you've not been by there, it's a beautiful little garden space.

It provides food for lower income workers at the university. And it provides about 4,000 to 5,000 pounds of food a year. This, you can see a little greenhouse in the back. This was one of our projects that we built, I forgot how long ago, maybe eight years ago. Was a project in our office where we designed and built it for the community garden.

And same thing with this new garden structure, which is just essentially a solar shade to create solar power, electricity so we can actually have cooking demonstrations out there and also provide a place for charging of garden equipment and maybe have an induction stove cooktop for a chef to come by and talk about food. And so this is a pretty nice little project. It's pretty go by there sometime when there's a lot of activity. There's a lot of students that are there working Respect, which is one of the groups that uses some of the money. I think they get 1% of the tuition fees for sustainable projects.

It's funding this project, the solar panels on this. They also did recently one of our projects, the Curtis Media Center on campus. They provided funding. The students are insisting that projects become more sustainable. All kinds of things go on over there. A lot of education. Here's one of the school classes that are out there looking at bees as well as gardening. And they get dirty, which is pretty fun. Here's our little project. It is a wood structure that has 12 solar panels that will allow some light through.

And they're by they're solar they're double sided panels. It does have a four by 10 foot structure on the back that holds, I think there's two batteries and some refrigeration and things like that in there. But it's totally off grid here. It's being made out of glulams. And it goes together kinda like a a tinker toy. It's all precut. It'll all be precut and assembled. Therefore, the and students will help construct it. It does have a TPO roof on top of what's left. It's not solar panels.

Here you can see where it is on the site. There's not a lot of locations for it, but it's right outside the fence line for the the garden. There is a gazebo, small gazebo with kind of information on that for the volunteers. And that's it. Very simple building. I'm not sure what the historic district commission issues are with these kind of structures. But I got four columns, a box, a top.

Thank you, Mr. Shostak. So I'm going to ask the commission if they have any clarifying questions. Then I'll ask for public comment. We'll have you take a seat, then we'll have a bit of a discussion. So are there any commissioners that have clarifying questions for Mr. Schostak?

I do have one

question. Thank

you for a very clear presentation. When you showed the structure, there was a wall behind it and you said that's where the batteries are, I think?

It's actually a four foot wide box storage.

Box. Okay.

Container, essentially. It's built on a slab, but it's wood sided. But there's two Tesla batteries or Tesla type batteries in there as well as small refrigeration unit. But there's a lot of things that go along with with the solar, the inverters and panels and things that are also being there.

So on the site plan, that's on the Southwest side? Yes. Okay. And from everywhere else you will just see the four posts and the roof of the structure.

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Trustee, if you go back to the site plan, could you and it looks like on the left, the structure is like a salmon color. It's like Yes. Immediately to the right, so what faces the back of that structure? Is that a street?

The street is on the very right hand side of the drawing. And there's this Chapel Hill grit sidewalk or walkway that goes around there. And right behind there, those boxes are planting areas, raised beds

that you see.

So the back of the structure faces the public right of way?

The public right of way is actually on the right. So it actually is the front of the building.

Okay.

And so this rendering is from the public right of way.

Got it. So then the back of that structure faces what? The garden. The garden. Okay. Yeah.

There is a fence around it. And and if you go there right now, the the garden is is taller than I am. And but later on this winter, it'll be cleaned out and a new garden placed in there. New seeds and plants.

So sorry, just back to your rendering of the structure. So the view there is from the street? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Any other clarifying questions? Okay. Thank you. It was just a few minutes, please. Is there any member of the public that would like to comment on this project?

Okay. Hearing none, commissioners, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Well, I'll jump in. Nothing but good thoughts. Like everything mister Shostak does, it's clean, simple, elegant, serves its purpose. And the function is part of its simplicity. And I mean simplicity in the nicest, most architectural sense of the word. It's simple without being simple minded. I like it.

Well done.

Saw nodding heads. Any other comments?

I concur. I think it's a fine design.

I would move to approve this on the grounds that it meets the standards under the limo.

Great. Can I hand you a script? So would you make a motion, please?

I move that the application is not in Congress with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HDC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and as not specifically referenced in this motion because I think the motion speaks for itself.

Good. Thank you, David. Could I get a second?

I'll second.

That's great. Okay. So I will now ask for a vote. Nancy, how do you vote? Aye. Glenn?

Aye.

David? Aye. Laura? Aye. Don. Aye. And the chair votes aye. Thank you, Mr. Schostak, very much.

You very much. I'll leave this presentation with you. There is a place on here that you can click on and you can volunteer.

Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. So we're going to move on to the next item on the agenda, which is 415 Hillsborough Street.

Okay. My name is Phil Post.

Hi, Mr. Post. Before you get started, I'm going to read a statement. And if you agree with that statement, if you would please say your name and say I so affirm. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth I so affirm. I affirm. And your name is? My name is Phil Post. Thank you, Post. Please go ahead.

I'm a civil engineer. I need to learn how to do this. Do I change pages?

Brian, conflicts.

Thank you. Any conflicts of sorry, Mr. Post, one other point of business that I always forget. Thank you, Sharneka. Are there any conflicts of interest or unauthorized site visits commissioners need to disclose?

No. No.

Thank you. Please go ahead, Mr. Post.

This is at 415 Hillsboro Road. I'm here tonight with Jim Lilly, who's married to Pam Zieman. Jim and Pam have owned the house for many years. It's about a half acre lot. It's a yellow house.

I have some photos. You really can't see the existing house, except if you walk down the driveway to the structure. What we're proposing under the new town rules to build a cottage, we're going to propose to build a cottage less than 1,000 square feet behind the existing house and have a 10 foot wide gravel driveway that will extend from the existing gravel parking lot back to this new structure with room for the parking of one car near the cottage structure. Let me page to the vicinity map. In upper corner here is our triangular lot fronting on Hillsborough Street right here.

The lot just to the north of us is what I call the tavern. It's a very recognizable, older structure. Just north of that is a a house with a is a two story house with an accessory dwelling behind it. To our south is a two story house on this flag lot. And here, it doesn't adjoin us, but there's a two story house right on the Hillsborough Street frontage.

The houses across the street are generally, I would say, from about the '80s. So they're not really in the historical context. Structure on our lot was built in Chatham County about two hundred years ago and was supposedly moved from Chatham County and placed on this lot. Previously, and this was done in the fifties. Previously in the fifties, the the home on this lot was much closer to the street.

Apparently, that was demolished, and this was this house was moved from Chatham and placed on this lot. The existing yellow house faces south. So it immediately faces into the back of the old garage on this flag lot right here. Behind us in this area is an undeveloped area behind the tavern. And joining us on the west are two major multi story apartment complexes.

Let me page to the next sheet. This is the existing conditions plan. The existing yellow house is here. There's a gravel parking lot here and a shared gravel driveway that serves both the tavern and this house. And then this is a brick patio and a brick sidewalk along the south edge. So you walk from the five or six parking spaces on a brick sidewalk. The front door's here. The structure's facing south. This is the old wood garage associated with this two story house. And this is an existing brick patio.

As I say, the the rear part of the tavern lot here is is undeveloped. Here's the accessory structure in the two story house here. This is the apartment complex. The proposed cottage would be an extension of the brick sidewalk to a front door. The cottage would be about nine ninety four square feet.

It would have a front porch, two rear porches, some bedrooms in the or a living room in the back and kind of bedrooms in the front. It's a low slung cottage. It's really of the most important features, I think, are these porches, the front and rear porches. We would propose a gravel driveway here. This would be like a turnaround area so that you could come back out.

So there'd be one on grade parking place here. I'll get to the driveway specifications later, but obviously it would match the gravel here, which is the size that's mentioned in the criteria where the gravel has to be less than a half inch in diameter. There won't be any trees cut to do this. This is a here's the existing brick patio. And just to the west of that is a thicket of bamboo.

So the the whole west end of the lot is kinda grown up in bamboo. There are some trees along the the Western property line, and then the the grade drops. The when the apartment complexes were built, they they cut down maybe around 15 or 20 feet. So there's a huge drop off on the apartment project. So the cottage would be placed in what I call the thicket of bamboo.

And the rest of the bamboo would be removed because obviously it's invasive and not welcome here. The driveway would be separated from the existing structure with plenty of distance at the closest point, no closer than about four or five feet to the existing foundation. And there's really no grading. It's all on grade. I can show you the photographs, but there's not going to be any new grading next to the existing house.

These are the elevations for the cottage. This is the front door. So this will be if you were walking down the brick sidewalk and then entering the cottage. This is obviously the front elevation. There's a front porch steps, obviously. This is a side view. So if if the dwelling could be seen from the street, which it cannot, you would you would see, for for instance, this side view of the front porch here and the screen porch on the rear. The bedrooms are here. The living area is here. You're kinda seeing through the screen porch to see the the living area.

Here's the rear. It does have a a chimney. Although, I don't know that there's actually gonna be a fireplace, but the design called for a chimney, and we thought that was a nice a nice feature. The architecture is truly a cottage. Consider it almost a small Eastern North Carolina house.

I don't think it has any attempt to look like a historic structure. I think it looks like a cottage, a small Eastern North Carolina design that might have been built in the sixties, seventies. So we're not trying to mimic any kind historical or compete with the existing historic structure. We're trying to make it compatible. I brought the color board for all the colors.

The the siding would be yellow to match the existing house. The windows would be Marvin windows. The glass in the windows would mimic very closely the existing windows. It's got sort of a low slung roof. But building height would be less than the existing structure. And again, would be tucked behind. Lastly, here's the floor plan. It shows the front porch, fans, downlights for lighting. There won't be any wall mounted fixtures on the exterior. Here are the rear steps that come into the screen ports to get into the living area on either side.

And so there's a bedroom here, a bedroom here, and a living area. I can go through your review criteria for both the driveway and the house if you want me to. But maybe I should stop here. And I also have all the color boards and the representation of the siding and things like that. So I have all those samples. Mr. Chairman, could you advise me? Should I maybe stop here?

So if you could just maybe show us your next slide. So if you do have something that summarizes which one of the design standards were referenced as you prepared your application, think that's helpful for us to see. Well Or if it's in the materials.

Let me just review it correctly. So with respect to the driveway, as again, gravel is mentioned as an acceptable surfacing as long as gravel size is less than a half inch. It talks about the driveway being compatible with the existing, which the existing driveway is gravel, the existing parking is gravel, the proposed drive extension will be gravel, and the proposed parking will be gravel. It talks about

not

allowing the driveway or the parking to cause any additional clearing or disturbance. As I say, there are no trees that have to be cut. The bamboo will be removed, but there's no trees or literally, it'll just be on grade. So there's really no because the lot is virtually flat, there's no additional disturbance to extend the drive or create the parking pad. Most of the driveway considerations have to do with preserving existing materials, patterns, dimensions, details, and we're absolutely mimicking the existing driveway and gravel parking.

With With respect to the accessory structure, the guidelines call for the new structure to be placed behind the primary structure, which is exactly what we're doing. It talks about not competing or dominating the existing structure, which I think is very clear because it's smaller, it's less height, less footprint, and completely hidden from the street. I think there's some other things about not trying to make it look historical or compete with the historical nature, which we're certainly not doing. It does talk about the doors and windows and being similar to, but not mimicking the historic structures, and maintaining significant site features. So without clearing or really doing any disturbance other than the removal of the bamboo, I think we're maintaining the existing site.

I have pictures if you want to be refreshed on the existing street views, the neighboring structures. I think that would be helpful to see. I'll run to them then. This is what I call the Tavern Building, which if you walk in Hillsborough or drive and see on the West Side of Hillsborough Street, this is the Tavern Building. And this is the shared drive.

I took these pictures in March. So the leaves were off the trees. I wanted you to be able to see how clear it is that when the leaves are off the trees, you can't even see the existing historical home, much less this proposed home that will be behind it. Moving to the north, so this is just to the north. This is the next lot to the north.

This is the existing residential structure. And behind it, you can see the accessory residential structure that's on this lot. These are two houses that are across the street, directly across the street from the driveway. I call them houses that were built in the 70s or 80s. I'm not exactly sure of the exact age, but they're not historic.

This is the greenhouse that's immediately south of our and the separation. I'm standing in the middle of the proposed cottage. So this would be the viewscape out the front door to the existing two story residence to the south. This is another house across the street. And these are other structures on Hillsborough Street.

Probably the most this picture right here is standing. I wanted to get the absolute best picture of what you you can see today if you stand on the sidewalk or if you were parked on on Hillsborough Street and looking into the lot. So this is the existing gravel driveway, And this is the existing yellow historic house. So you can barely sort of, at least in my viewpoint, you can barely see the existing house. And the cottage will be behind that.

So that's why I'm asserting to you that it won't be visible. So if we drove down the driveway and parked where the parking is today for the historic house, we'd be standing right here. And this is the alignment of new single lane driveway that'll go back to the cottage. So beside the driveway is a very old rock wall that we will not disturb. And this is walking on the existing grass behind the existing.

There will be the alignment for the new gravel driveway to get back to the cottage. And the distance here is about 20 feet, so it's very easy to fit. And you can see it's dead level, so we don't have to do much disturbance to get this driveway back to the cottage. These pictures here, this is, for instance, looking to the west towards the existing apartment complex. These are the bamboo trees. This is looking north right here. So this is the area behind the historic tavern. So that's our neighbor to the North. This is to the West. And I've shown you the neighbor to the South.

So those are my kind of top 10 pictures of where this is and what you will see from the cottage and what

Thank you. Very comprehensive. Very much appreciated.

And I have the colors if you

I'll see what questions commissioners have. So I'll ask the commissioners if they have clarifying questions. I'll then ask for public comment. And then we'll have a bit of a discussion. Are there any clarifying questions from the commission?

Are there similar I'm sorry.

No, you go ahead.

Similar structures nearby?

The house let me page back. So this is the house two doors down, two doors north. This is the tavern that's next door. So the existing house two doors north has the main residential structure here. And their accessory, their two story accessory living unit is behind here, which you can see.

So to me, yes ma'am. This is just about 100 feet north of our site where we have the of course, you can see both the primary structure and the accessory structure, but that would be the closest thing where there's an existing main house and, and in this case, a much larger living building just right behind it.

Okay. Thank you.

Two quick questions. Thank you. The front of the new cottage and the yellow existing house, do they face north or south?

South.

South. Okay. And then the gravel driveway, which is appropriate, you mentioned that you would not have to do grading to get it in. But in one of those pictures, I noticed a tree. And I see on your site, you have an existing triple

And we're

gonna save that tree. You're very you're very so this tree right here is what you're referring to. And as we pass through here, there's around 18 feet between that existing tree, which is kind of right on the property line. We do not propose to disturb it. And we're going to be on grade coming through there with literally no grading, probably just adding gravel.

And the property line and that tree are kind of diverging from one another. So it's a little narrower at the front of the existing house. But as we get back to that tree, it's much wider, and so there's more room to to get between it. So we don't we don't believe there's any cause to remove that tree.

That that's fair. And I I do see that. The the one I'm speaking of specifically is says existing six inch triple tree, and it's right now, it's shown right in the middle of the drive at the end of the yard

is a pretty dead tree.

That's I'm just trying to clarify.

Yes, ma'am. Yeah.

Okay. So that is coming out because

it's

it's But

it's virtually it's a goner.

Okay. Thank you.

Any other questions? Give us just a few minutes.

Yes, sir.

Thank you. Is there any member of the public that would like to comment on this application? Hearing none, commissioners, I would love to hear your thoughts. I appreciated the reference to the principles in our manual. It's very helpful.

Yes. Since is really is this the least since I've been at the HCC, this is one of the first ones where we've had the infill kind of cottage site. So it's kind of interesting. So thank you for presenting the standards because this is kind of like a precedent.

Yeah. It is.

Not kind of like a precedent.

This is

a precedent.

So thank you for that. That's awesome. But I appreciate the fact that the the cottage is not trying to be a particular style or styled house from another part of the historic districts. And the components are very simple and honest. Seems to be the word of the night for me. So I appreciate the way mister Post has positioned it, and I don't like the scale of it. And the detailing's not too over the top. Everything seems to be very appropriate, in my opinion.

I have no concerns.

Okay. I would love for someone to make a motion, and I have a script I'd love to hand them as they're making that motion. Thank you. Nancy?

Yeah, I'm just trying can't to remember the address.

415

Hillsborough I move that the application for a certificate of appropriateness for 415 Hillsborough Street is it street or road?

Street. It's street.

Okay, because your first slide said road. Well,

you were.

And is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HDC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and as specifically referenced in this motion.

Thank you. Nancy, could I ask for someone to second Nancy's motion? Second. Thank you, David. Okay. We're gonna take a vote. Nancy. Aye. Glenn? Aye. David? Aye. Laura? Aye. Don? Aye. And the chair votes aye. Unanimously approved. Thank you.

I'm sorry for the mistake about Hillsborough Road. It is Hillsborough Street.

It's right in the agenda, so we're good. Thank you very much. Okay. We're going to move on to the next item on the agenda, which is 702 Gimgall Road.

Well, they're setting up me. I have a five minute break.

Sure. We're going to just take a quick bio break.

Lot that we're just way overexposed.

We have commissioners are all back whenever you're ready. Okay. Go ahead. No problem. So I'm going to read a statement. And if you agree with that statement, if you would say I so affirm and state your name, please. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth I so affirm.

I so affirm. And your name is? Ethan Fitzpatrick.

Thank you, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

So I apologize for the form factor of this, but it is a a similar project in scope to the community garden. I'm with NC Solar now. We actually did the Curtis Media Center project, which he actually referenced. And so this will be a solar and battery project to offset utility bills and also provide backup power in the event of an outage. And our aim here is to blend historic preservation with environmental preservation and the our our mission for sustainable energy, allowing this homeowner to to capitalize on that.

So this will be a 20 panel 20 solar panel project, and it will contain battery backup, which is located in the basement of the primary residence. So there it's five symmetric sub arrays on a standing seam roof of a detached structure at the rear of the residence. And I think from a historic preservation standpoint, the key here is the fact that it's almost invisible. So it is not facing publicly accessible road or area. And the portion of the detached structure that does face a street, which is actually immediately to the north here, faces the gable of the detached structure.

And the other important detail here is that it is flush mounted to the roof surface, so it does not create a new profile. It is closely matched to the existing structure here. And so the goal with pulling up these two views is to provide some perspective both above and from the street. So this is the building at the back of the lot where the solar panels will be mounted. And as you can see from the public street here, it would be very difficult to see the panels if at all.

And so

That's very helpful, by the way.

Thank you for that. No problem.

I didn't mean to interrupt you. Please go ahead.

If that I realize that the guidelines suggest terse, concise, and focused bullet points. So if that provides at least a starting point for clarifying questions, please let

me know. That sounds great. Members of the so I'll ask the commission if they have clarifying questions. We'll then ask for public comment, and then we'll have a bit of a discussion. So commissioners, do you have clarifying questions? Mister Fitzpatrick?

I'm just curious. Where is the the power wall gonna be?

It'll be located in the basement, and that is called out by this leader. So the power three

Sorry. I didn't see that before. Okay.

No problem.

Any other clarifying questions? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Fitzpatrick. Give us just a few minutes. Is there any member of the public that would like to comment on this application? K. Hearing none. It's up for discussion and a vote. There's are there any questions or any things we need to discuss?

It's gonna be basically invisible to just about everybody, so I don't have any concerns.

Good. Would anybody else like to try the script out tonight?

You can also freestyle if

you want. Yeah. Yeah. And it starts at the underline.

Okay. I move that the application is not in concurrence with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HCC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and as specifically referenced in this motion.

I think that's yep. Second. Yep.

Okay.

Thank you, Glenn. David second. I'll now take vote. Nancy. Aye. Glenn. Aye. David. Aye. Laura. Aye. Dawn. Aye. And the chair votes aye. Passes unanimously. Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

Thank you. Thank you for such a nice presentation. It's very clear.

Thank you. And the views were awesome. Thank you for that. Thank you. It's a good tip, actually.

I've been pulling them up on Google Earth just to kind of see what we're looking at. It's really helpful.

Okay. On to item number eight on the agenda, is which 724 Gimgall Road.

Hi. So this is a presenter view. Okay.

Okay.

Excellent. Hello. Hello. So I'm gonna read a brief statement. If you agree with that statement, if

you would

say, I so affirm and state your name, please. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the reference application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm.

I so affirm that. And my name is Kobe Linton.

Thank you, mister Linton.

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for having me. I am the architect for Matt and Lydia Dill, who live at 724 Gingoul Road. And Matt is here with me tonight. I suspect most of you probably know the neighborhood well. 724 is, if you're coming into the neighborhood from Country Club, it's toward the end on the right hand side. It's on the south side of the street, as you can see in this vicinity map. The house was built in 1935. It's a colonial revival. The primary form is a front gable facing the streets, so with the ridge running perpendicular to Kemgol.

And over the years, there have been several additions, mostly on the east and rear of the house with low sloped hip roofs. So here you can see the existing site plan. Among those other sort of additional renovation projects in 2015, there was a big addition on the rear of the house. And part of that project was the introduction of these Chatham Fieldstone retaining walls in the backyard, which you can see here and here. Can you see my cursor when I move it?

I don't know. Anyway, so there are these sort of two large retaining walls in the back. Like most of the houses on the South Side Of Gimgul, the property slopes down steeply from front to the back. And so these terraces were introduced to sort of help create some level surfaces in the back. So just kind of to get oriented from left to right. So Gimgul Road is on the left hand side of the site plan. This is the footprint of the primary house, sort of shaded in gray. Behind that, there's a deck addition, a former deck addition, and some paths that were added in the stone patio. And then you can see the retaining walls I mentioned. Sorry, that just skipped ahead.

So in this next slide, you can see the proposed work. So on the lower terrace, we proposed a garden house. And on the upper terrace, we proposed a plunge pool and a small stone patio. And then just along the western edge of that patio, we've extended that Chatham Fieldstone wall to create a privacy wall with a water feature in order to introduce some ambient noise to help kill some of the street noise that comes up from Raleigh Road. And just on the backside of that oh, I'm sorry.

Just on the backside of that wall is a small seven by nine foot sauna. So here you can kind of see the site plan annotated. This drawing is probably also the best place to describe the layout of the fence that we're proposing around the yard. So the building code requires us to create a barrier anytime we have a swimming pool. It's just a small sort of eight and a half foot by eight and a half foot plunge pool.

But we still have to create a sort of pool perimeter around that. So projecting to the sort of from the back corners of the house to the east and west, we've proposed these brick fence at either side with wooden gates. And then going back from that, that's sort of encircling the rest of the backyard, we proposed a four foot tall black painted metal fence to create that code required enclosure. So here, mostly for reference, we have images sort of of the back of the house at the east and west. So this one is showing the sort of toward the back of the house viewed from the east side.

And here you can see the back of the house from the west side. And in the next slide, so these are both images of the rear of the house. We aren't proposing any work to the existing house at all. I'm just showing these for context. Everything you can see in that larger image to the right is former additions to the back of the house except for just kind of the primary gable that's projecting up the top.

But the rest of the back of the house, as you can see it, is all sort of former additions that have been added over the years. And here you can see those stone retaining walls. So these were built in 2015 as part of a previous project. And they kind of break the yard up into an upper terrace and a lower terrace. And they vary in height from zero up to about well, at the southwest corner, actually gets all the way up to six feet tall.

But in most cases, they're about three or four feet tall. So just to get a sense of the placement of the proposed structure on the property and its scale in relation to the house. This is a site section kind of slicing through the property. It's like a cut through the property that runs north south looking at it from the east. So on the right hand side, we have Gimgul Road sort of up at the top of the property.

And on the left hand side, have the rear property line. And you can kind of see that the proposed so down there on the lower terrace is where you see the proposed garden house. So as you can see, because of the sloping grade, it sits significantly lower than the primary house. It's obviously much smaller than it. And is actually entirely behind it.

So the top of the ridge of the proposed structure is over 20 feet below the ridge of the main house. And then you can also see in the background between those two structures, that's the fieldstone wall that I had mentioned that we proposed on the upper terrace with the water feature. And we'll look at that more closely in a moment. But I just wanted to point out kind of where it is here. Mostly just to say, the top of that wall, it's about an eight foot tall wall, but the top of it is actually below the level of the street just because of how much the grade slopes down.

So this is the garden house, sort of looking at it from the north, which is its sort of primary elevation. You can see it's a pair of twinned brick gables separated by these two pairs of French doors that are flanking a central brick chimney. And all of the materials we proposed for this are pretty much entirely drawn from the palette of the house, which I was showing you a moment ago, we'll look at it again in a moment. But the gables themselves would be white painted brick and a Flemish bond. We have concrete lentils over the windows to match the concrete lentils of the house.

And the roof rail that runs across the the low slope roof between the two gables is a white painted wood Chippendale rail to match the railing at the at the existing back deck. So this is a view of the garden house from the east. We have six light casement windows to match the six light casement windows at the original house. The original house has an amazing assortment of window types. We have four over four double hungs, six over six double hungs, eight over eight double hungs, four, six, eight, and ten light casements, fixed windows, awning windows.

So the house just has an amazing assortment of different window types. But the ones that we've used here are these sort of six light casements that match some of the original windows. This is the rear view. The the garden house sits on the lower terrace, and the lower terrace wall is about four feet tall. And this is sort of perched on top of it.

But running along the south edge, like right on top of that retaining wall, is a row of mature cypresses that were built as a green screen to kind of shield the property from Raleigh Road. So the rear elevation isn't visible from really anywhere unless you're standing right in front of it. And then this is the western view. So very much like the eastern view. It's a very symmetrical structure.

Gutters and downspouts we proposed are bronze half round gutters and bronze round downspouts. And we've proposed a slate gray architectural asphalt shingle for the gable roofs themselves. So those are the elevations of the garden house itself. And now, if you don't mind, I'd like to just kind of run through some of the smaller details briefly. So this next slide, we see the brick fences that are extending out from the back corners of the house.

So the the upper image shows the fence on the east side of the house, and the lower image shows the fence on the west side of the house. So these are kind of projecting out east and west from the rear corners. And each of them is, it's a brick fence that's sort of broken up by brick piers intermittently. And the panels between piers are sort of perforated with a brick lattice. The walls themselves and the piers are capped with a rollock of brick.

And the gates through the fence are a down sloping wooden gate painted. The primary sort of path to get to the backyard is at the foot of the driveway. And so we accentuated that primary sort of person path to the backyard with a delicate metal trellis to create a moon gate for growing vines up over that main gate. And then the gate all the way on the east side is basically there to shield view of the trash and recycling bins, which currently just kind of sit at the bottom of the driveway. So now we can kind of put those out of view behind the gate.

This is the wall that joins the brick patio or sorry, not brick patio, the stone patio on the upper terrace. So to the left, this is the water feature I mentioned. So that portion of the wall would be a smooth cut stone with water that kind of trickles down it to create that ambient noise. One of Matlinlady's main objectives for the project was to not only create a more comfortable backyard environment that they can actually inhabit, but also to try to kill some of the road noise from Raleigh Road. And so the water feature is mostly aimed at trying to neutralize some of that sound.

Anybody who's spent time on the South Side Of Gimgul knows it's just kind of constant. So just to the right of that water feature, there's an opening in the wall that allows you to walk through it to get to the sauna, which is on the back side of the wall and that sauna is sort of outlined with a dash line here. I don't think you can see my cursor. So I apologize if I keep referencing things as if I'm pointing at them. Okay.

So this is the backside of that same wall. On the left, we have a wooden sauna, which would be clad in a stained wood, a dark stained wood. Immediately adjacent to that is the doorway that kind of takes you through the wall to access that. And this fieldstone wall, so this would be a Chatham fieldstone to match those sort of twenty fifteen era retaining walls in the backyard. And it's actually an extension of the wall that runs along the west side of the upper terrace.

So you can kind of see that wall continuing down the hill to the right. This is a view of the sauna looking at it from the south. So it has glass doors, but they're facing the back of the property, sort of downhill toward the back of the property. And then this is the view of it looking at it from the north. I'm not sure whether you can see this, but this dash line above that is actually the level of Gimgul Road.

So the structure is entirely below the level of the street. The west side of the property is very densely screened with bushes and trees. And plus, we're gonna build a new brick fence, you know, that kinda runs across at the bottom of the hill. So I don't think it'll be visible at all from the street roof. So just only slightly, especially because it sits so low behind that new wall.

So the next few slides are just to discuss material palette and also just to share some precedents in the neighborhood. And so the brick fences that we're building are well, are just a handful of very, very similar brick fences in the neighborhood. Not identical, but very similar. Actually, this one on the top right is very, very similar. So the fences themselves are brick piers and then brick panels between the piers.

And the panels themselves are perforated with that brick lattice, just to make it feel more open. And then we have a robot cap on top of that. So there are many more in the neighborhood, but I just took pictures of these three. The top left slide, you can also see an almost identical sort of black painted aluminum fence, almost identical to the one that we've proposed to create the pool perimeter around the rest of the backyard. So on the top left, you can see the sort of bronze half round gutter and round downspout.

This is actually the back of the existing house, so we proposed to match that detail at the garden house. Charcoal architectural asphalt shingle for the gables. This would be a bronze standing seam roof for the low slope portion of the roof that runs in between the two gables. And here is the sauna, or something very much like the sauna we proposed. It would have like a dark stained wood cladding.

So this next slide is just about windows. So you can kind of see. I could have taken more pictures, but on the left here we have awning style six lights. These are six light casements. Here's some eight light casements. Some of the windows are individual punched openings. Some of them are in groups of two, three, four. There's just a lot of different window styles on the house. And then these are some of the other material palette things I wanted to talk about. So on the top left, we have a white painted brick and a Flemish bond, which is what we've proposed to do for the two brick gables of the new structure.

Immediately to the right of that, that's one of those sort of twenty fifteen Chatham Fieldstone walls. And we're going to be modifying those in a couple of spots and extending the upper terrace wall on the west edge. The patio next to the plunge pool would be a variegated blue stone in a random Ashler pattern with a border, which is very much like the existing variegated blue stone patio that they have behind the house. And then in the bottom right, you can kind of see the inspiration for the chip and nail roof rail that we've got on the central segment of the new structure. And then this final slide is just a handful of the white painted accessory structures in Gemgul.

Again, there are others. The neighborhood, those of you who know it know it, there are accessory structures on probably 70% or 80% of the properties in the neighborhood. These are all white painted accessory structures, all in brick, which are more similar to the one that we're doing. All of these are larger than what we proposed. But I just thought they might be a good reference for some of the context in the neighborhood.

And so here is, in case we need to reference it again, this is that sort of north facing elevation for the garden house. And I also, at the very end here, included a rendering. This is that garden house kind of looking at it from the back of the existing house, kind of looking down the hill at it. And you can see the sort of twin gables in the central chimney with the French doors between. The plunge pools here in the foreground and that field stone wall with the water feature is on the right hand side.

So I believe that's all I've got. Anyway, if you all have any questions at all that I can help answer, I'd be happy to.

Great. Thank you. So I'll ask the commission if they have clarifying questions. I'll then ask the if there's public comment, and then we'll have bit of a chat. Alright. Do

you have

clarifying questions?

I do. Please. Okay. Referring to section 4.7 about accessory structures, it seems to me that this garden house has an awful lot going on for an accessory structure, which generally speaking, accessory buildings are generally less detailed than the primary buildings. And the main house is relatively straightforward.

And this building I don't know what that chimney thing is. But you've got this kind of Chippendale trim. And it seems to me that the garden structure is way more elaborate than the house itself, which our guidelines really suggest that an accessory building, it was designed to be subordinate to the primary structure. And I'm just wondering why you made these choices, especially this chimney. Does it have a function?

Yes. Well, let me try to answer the question at large first. I guess one thing is a question of scale. The structure is so much smaller than the primary house, which you can kind of capture in this section that cuts through the site. It's entirely behind the house. It's much smaller than the house. The house actually has quite a lot of forms. It has a front facing primary gable and a portico that's superimposed on the front facade. But then in addition to that, if you can, let me see, you can see some of the, oh, sorry. I'm going the wrong direction.

It has a lot of projecting forms. And I wish I had pictures of all of them in my slideshow. You can kind of get a sense for it here. So it has sort of the primary gable, but then it's also got secondary gables. It's got multiple low slope hip roofs, a projecting porch, a projecting garage structure, and just multiple different types of roofs and all at different scales.

And so I don't think that formally, I think the fact that we have a very symmetrical structure and that the gables themselves are alike in scale and they're just so much smaller than the primary house, I guess for me, it doesn't feel complex formally. It seems fairly simple. To answer your question specifically though about the chimney, it is for a fireplace. So it's a back to back chimney. So it has a fireplace that opens out onto the patio that's just in front of the structure. And then on the interior, it has a fireplace opening into the living space on the inside. So that that's why the chimney is there is because of its fireplaces.

Do you have any other questions, Nancy?

May I ask

a question?

Please. Please.

I'm gonna build on what you just said for a second, Nancy. I see where some of the elements for the pool house came from. The Chippendale railing came off the back of the house. The gabled roofs. I I just feel like maybe maybe the pool house should be simpler in its statement to the to the world even though you can't really see it from the front of the yard. So that would just be my comment about it.

Could you go back to the primary site plan and clarify for us where fences are going? And where they're visible from on the property?

Sure. So the I don't know how well you can see that. Okay. So the large gray shaded portion is the footprint of the house itself, of the main house. So in this drawing, east is up and west is down. So we have a brick fence that extends from the back, the sort of southeast corner over here. So running from there to there. And that fence, well, I'll flip ahead and show you the elevations again.

So the fence as it starts to enclose the backyard starts at the back corner of the existing structure?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all the way at back of the house.

And what height?

So it it varies in height because of the piers. I believe the believe the the fence panels themselves are four feet tall and then the piers stick up another four or six inches, I believe. So, where was I? Shoot, there we go. And so, one is on the east side of the house, then on the west side of the house, it again sort of projects off the back corner, the southwest corner of the house.

In this case, it doesn't run all the way over the property line. There are actually a lot of trees along that western edge. It's very dense with trees. And so rather than try to chop off a bunch of tree limbs or take down any trees, we basically just stopped it short. And so it only runs out to about here.

You can't see where I'm pointing at. But basically, it runs out just slightly into the sort of west side setback. And so those are the two brick fences. And then going sort of, if you follow that sort of western fence down, the dash line that extends out from it, sort of toward the back property line, is showing the outline of the aluminum fence, if that makes sense.

Yeah. So you showed us a head on view of a brick fence with a gate that I think starts at the back corner of the property and goes to the property line.

Oh, very good. I don't know if I can point. Thank

you, Axel. Thank you. Let me see. Oh,

I see. I see. Okay. So, right. So the two elevations of brick fence that I showed you, one of them is showing this fence right here that kind of extends east from the southeast corner of the house. And one of them is this elevation, which is showing the fence that extends west from the southwest corner.

And then the dash line is the continuation of that fence to enclose the pool.

Exactly. So that aluminum fence, that sort of black metal fence is extending back here. The dash line shows it and actually runs sort of coincident with that lower retaining wall. The retaining wall itself is four feet taller taller over most of its length. So it's quite likely that from a code perspective, we actually won't need to run the fence across like on top of the wall, because we might be able to use the wall itself as that pool barrier. But then the fence picks up again, sort of just inside the property line. I'm sorry, right inside the property line along the eastern edge and terminates into the back of that brick fence.

So the pool is being built on the first terrace and the pool house is being built on the second terrace.

Exactly. So that little sort of 16 by 16 plunge pool is right here in the middle of the upper terrace.

So then the elevation drop from street level to the first, second, and the second first terrace and the second terrace is how much of a drop?

So from walking on like the sidewalk in Gimgul down to walking on the first terrace is about nine, nine and a half feet. You know, it varies across the width of the yard. And then about another four feet down, well, three and a half feet down to the lower terrace from there. So by the time you get to the lower terrace, you're standing about 12 feet below the street.

So talking about the construction on the first terrace,

which is the pool and

the decking around it, the sauna is how tall?

The sauna is eight feet tall, eight feet four.

So you're confident that you're not going to see the top of that sauna from the street?

No. Just because of the trees, if nothing else. The truth is you might be able to see it. So we are building that brick fence, you know, which will obscure the view of it somewhat. I think that will probably block the view of the bottom three

or four feet of it,

just because you're looking kind of down

And toward

what you showed us makes no attempt to be a historically relevant structure. It's a modern structure that could potentially be seen from Gimgall Road, yes?

If you took down all the trees on that side.

We can't consider vegetation that's not permanent.

Yeah, sure.

So I still have the question of, so from the existing structure and the fence that's proposed, the drop to the second terrace and the sauna that sits beyond the profile of the house, that if it was at street level, would be clearly visible from Gimbal Road. Help me understand why that structure is not going to be seen from the street. That modern structure in a historic neighborhood would not be seen from the

street. Like I was saying, it'll partially be obstructed by the fence itself that sort of sits in the foreground of that. It would block a portion of the view. But again, since your eyes will be higher up, I suspect you probably could see the top portion of the structure. I'm not exactly sure how much of it you would see, if not for the trees.

So why wouldn't that sit behind the profile of the house?

Just because of the way the owners wanted to occupy the space essentially. They wanted that to feel like a bit more of a private spot. You know, if you're standing at that part of their yard that's completely encased in vegetation, which again is why we then vegetation is not permanent. I know. But I'm just saying that's why they wanted to put it there. So it just feels like a very private spot as opposed to sort of sort of stuck on the terrace itself.

So I'll be transparent that that's a concern of having something that is a modern structure potentially visible from a major historic street.

Right.

I mean, and not sitting behind the profile of the house. Sitting behind the profile of the house, I wouldn't have that concern, but that is a concern.

If I could make a suggestion. I have been looking at the Google Street View of the property from angles from 728 Gimgall Road to 723. And I I don't know how much light it would shed on the point you were just discussing, but particularly with respect to what you were saying earlier about the formal complexity of the existing structure. I think it's helpful. So you may want to display that on your screen there so it's in the record, and you can walk through what you were talking about. If I knew how.

Help me get the Google map. Okay. Alright. Thanks. Alright. So that's actually

I would suggest actually starting down at 07:28 because you you get I think a clearer angle other way.

Yeah. Sure. So if we go so this is further east. So this is two doors down. This is actually one of those other accessory structures that I was mentioning.

So here you can kind of see the house immediately next door. And as you kind of walk down the street this way, you can kind of see. So sort of projecting off the this is the house itself. This is 724. So we have the original Gable form. But as I mentioned, it's been sort of the subject of multiple additions over the years, including this one. Some of those have low slope hip roofs. Most of them do. We have this sort of front projecting portico, sort of classical portico. Sort of running across the bottom edge of that driveway, right where you see the of the paver stop is where that brick fence would go.

So it's sort of blocking the view to the backyard. You know, if you in terms of view of the garden house itself, if you were to stand sort of right here at the top of the driveway and look, you know, and try as hard as you could to see it, you might see the, just at that one sort of oblique perspective, you might be able to see the left edge of it, the sort of, you know, the eastern edge of it. But you would only see the top portion of it because we'll actually have a brick wall kind of coming across below that. But the truth is it might be obscured entirely. It sits well behind the house.

And then if we were to go a little further over, so this is that sort of western view. It's just completely full of And again, I know, understand that you can't sort of take into account the vegetation. But it is just extremely dense foliage. And it sort of starts here at the front building line of the house, and that sort of dense vegetation continues all the way down to the south end of the property. So that whole side of the property is just very green.

Well, you've got that up. Could you show where the pool house would be, what it would be seen from the street?

Yes. So that's what I was talking about, the garden house. So it wouldn't be seen from the street at all. There's really no way to see it at all, except that you might possibly be able to see the absolute eastern edge of it, maybe just the first couple feet of it. Again, I haven't really mapped out that view. But the eastern let me just actually I wonder if I can toggle back to the hang on one second. Nope. There we go. Yeah. So the eastern edge of it is roughly in alignment with the eastern edge of the house itself.

So you would see probably the first few feet of the eastern portion of it. But otherwise, the entire structure would be behind the house and you wouldn't be able to see it.

So it seems like our concern was more about the modern structure on the right hand side of the building. And is that a relationship to the neighbors at all that's a problem? I'm new to the commission, so I'm not sure if we can bring that up. But the idea of the modern structure on that right hand side

So you did show a

view that shows sort of all sides of that structure. So I think the question might be what's visible from the neighbor's yard, essentially.

Right. So I mean, right now nothing just because of the trees again. But if you chopped down all the trees and looked at it, you would be able to see the sort of western side of it. So let me go back and see if I can show you that. So essentially this. So the bulk of it is actually just a fieldstone wall. And then it's just a small wooden box that's sort of superimposed on that. So, again, like, if you took down all the trees between the two properties, you'd be able to see a wall with a wooden box on it, essentially.

So if you go back to your primary site plan, again, if you would for So just a to clarify, the scale of the I think you're referring to it as a garden house behind the existing structure. So what is the square footage of the garden house and then sort of the width of the total structure in comparison to the width of the house as it sits on the lot?

So I don't have the width of the house itself on the top of my head. The garden house has just under a thousand square feet. So it's 996, I believe, square feet. And I believe it's 40 it says it right there. I think it's forty Forty nine. 49 feet wide. So its width is very similar to the width of the house itself. But obviously it's a much smaller object in scale just because of its height and its depth.

So I have a question that is not for you but for Brian, but it's really relevant to what we've been talking about. The design standards say in a few places, they like consider the use of vegetation to screen x y z. Where what is the source for the standard that we can't consider vegetation in this context?

Vegetation is not permanent.

I I understand that. But I mean, is it in the design principles and standards document?

Is it somewhere else? I just I haven't seen that. It's a fair question.

I appreciate the question. What I thought you might bring up was the part of 4.4 where it says, new construction may incorporate contemporary materials and architectural details applied to modernist forms and designs that complement the historic buildings and the immediate surroundings. So I guess the question of I guess there are few different places where the standards talk about how you can make structures that are modern in historic districts. The use of modern materials may be appropriate if they're applied to modernist rather than traditional forms. Anyway, I guess I'm just wondering how best to understand those parts of the guidelines, where it says that you can use modernist forms and modernist materials on those modernist forms in the districts.

It's just a question.

To talk about. Maybe it would help if we heard from anyone else in

the community.

Yeah. Does anybody have any other clarifying questions?

I do

have one more question.

Sure.

Which is could you go back and show the pictures of the accessory structures? Yes, ma'am. Nearby?

Yeah. I believe they're right at the very end.

I think there was one picture that showed a couple of them.

Here it is. So the one on the bottom left is, it got loud, is sort of two doors down, two doors further east. And then the one on the top right is across the street and a little further to the west. Anyway, all three of these are sort of brick accessory structures that are, like I said, they're all larger than the one we proposed in square footage and mass. You know.

If I'm looking at them correctly, they don't seem to have a lot of ornamentation?

Well, I know that the one on the bottom left actually has a lot of ornamentation. It's, you can't see it from that perspective. Yeah. In fact, I could probably show it to you if we went back to the street view. It's got a covered walkway that leads from it to the primary structure that has a lot of almost Japanese joinery detail.

And I wish you could see it better. Oh, they can't see that. Oh, okay. Oh, very good. Thank you.

Unfortunately, can only see a little glimpse of it here. So this structure actually also has an exterior fireplace, actually almost identical to the one we proposed on its eastern elevation. And it also has this sort of covered walkway that connects it to the main house that has a lot of really complex joinery as well as sort of low stone or low brick walls with planters sort of built into them. Anyway, it has a lot of the similar details. And the others, I don't know as well.

But here you can see that sort of exterior fireplace. Oh, shoot. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. Here you can kind of see it. The tree is somewhat in the way. This is a chimney on the left side of that accessory structure that also has an exterior fireplace.

Other clarifying questions? Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Is there any member of the public that would like to comment on this application? Don't see anybody. Okay. Mr. Lund, give us just a few minutes if you will. All right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So I have one thought on And well, really it's two, which is that if there if in fact we can't consider vegetation and its role in screening new structures, then I share your concerns. The way I read the design principles and standards, I think we can. I think there are a number of references to it being appropriate to use shrubs and trees and so on to screen new patios, new parking. I haven't gone through the whole list, but it does seem like we can consider that. And if that's the case, and maybe Kevin can weigh in on that. If that's the case, then I think this is appropriate. Is your

wife a phone call?

It is. I have a terrible habit of leaning back. Sorry.

So I think this might be a good point for me to chime in at. I'm not aware of any standard that would prevent the HDC from using vegetation, shrubs, etcetera, or from considering those sorts of things as part of your review of the COA application. I would also remind the HTC that ultimately the standard that you all are tasked with applying is whether or not the proposed work is incongruous with the character of the historic district or not. And so really, I think that that is maybe a more appropriate place to place the to spend your time and energy is to determine whether what's being proposed is or is not in Congress with the character of the district. I think that your consideration of visibility from adjacent or nearby structures or from the public right of way certainly might play a role in that.

But ultimately, the question is not whether the neighboring property whether these new elements are visible from the neighboring property. Rather, the question is whether these new elements are in Congress with the character of the district as a whole.

To that point and I don't want to speak for anyone else the sense I'm getting is if we have to assume that this, if we have to treat this as being visible in from all of the places that would be able to see it if there were no trees, then it's probably not appropriate. But maybe more appropriate if we get to rely on the existing vegetation as screening it. And that's just kind of my read of where we're going. So I think that's why that's such a topic.

So I think Kevin's redirect is helpful. We should probably talk about sort of specifically what we have questions about. And I heard questions about, I'll call it the ornamentation on the garden house and sort of its reference to the existing structure, sort of one set of questions. I think the scale and visibility of some of the elements from Gilmour Road is a concern that I have, vegetation aside, both in the width of the garden house and then the placement of the sauna trip outside of the profile of the house. Those are the two things that I I think we've I heard concerns about.

Well, from my point

Just that I mean, looking at the site plan, I it looks like the the width of the garden house is actually wider than the house itself. I see. And so it actually would be visible from behind from the street potentially.

Well, not just the ornamentation, but how that compares with other accessory structures in the district.

Well, and with the front of this house.

Yeah. I'm sorry?

With the front of

the house. Front of the house and with other garages and so on in the district in the district.

If if I could make a suggestion, the modern element, if that was a a hang up for us, if that was placed in a different spot where it's clearly not gonna be visible from the street. From a functional standpoint, that may not be what you want. But if it could be moved up on the top near the pool or somewhere different where you really couldn't see it from Kim Kool, that might be a way to resolve that part

of Agreed. Tom, what are what are your thoughts?

Alright. My thoughts. Many thoughts. First of all, the concern you stated about it being ornate in a lot of pieces parts is true. But I think that's kind of negated by the fact that it's going to be all white. And I think that makes it appear to be more of a monolithic structure. So I don't have a problem with it. From a purely design perspective, the cleanliness and the clarity of the sauna wall, I'll call it, I find to be pretty fantastic. I think that'd be awesome. But juxtaposing the really clean sauna wall with the new house is a little bit jarring because they're they're kinda doing two different things.

But I'm getting in design weeds, and it's not design guidelines. It's design weeds. I don't have a problem with the fencing and where it is, and everything seems to be within code and basic design standards. And quite honestly, a year from now, if I'm walking down Gimagool with my dog, I'm not gonna look over and be shocked by anything that I see. So in that kind of eye test perspective, I don't think there's anything that's too jarring to the neighborhood and the way it fits in the overall fabric of the neighborhood.

In my opinion, I think it in in that regard, it works pretty well. The clarity of the design wall where it's one straight wall and you have the sign of tech behind it is really sweet. But if you wanted to address some of the issues discussed, you could take that wall and turn the end of it down west and cover that one end and kinda grab the sauna component a little bit more with the wall. And then if all trees were to be denuded, you would just see a stone wall there. You wouldn't see an attached contemporary flat roof structure there.

And I think your comment about modern components in the historic district is very true. But generally, the modern components want to somehow reflect the massing and the character of the other buildings around. And I think that little sauna building just stuck in the back of the stone wall is a little bit jarring from a design perspective in the historic district. Those are my basic comments.

Any other comments or questions?

Just to clarify, when we're talking about the ornament of the garden house, are we talking about the Chippendale lattice at the front at the top?

Well, the Chippendale and the height and style of the chimney and the, just the whole effect, it's much, much different from the house and the rest of the houses in the neighborhood. As Don said, it is going to be all white. That's correct, isn't it? It will be all white.

I think so.

Which somewhat reduces the impact of all of that trim.

Because I can see how it would tie in with the back of the house, but we're talking about we're concerned with the how it is if it's seamless from the front.

And sort of it's to the existing structure, the historic structure on the property.

Yeah. Okay.

So if anyone would like to make a motion, and that motion could include a request for the applicant to address items. Yeah. Go ahead,

Kevin. My recommendation and just forecasting where this may go if for example the commission were to find no issue with any of the proposed elements except for perhaps the sauna structure, what the commission might do is vote to approve those particular elements and then to continue with the applicant's consent. And I think we would want to ask the applicant their preference. But I would recommend, I think, that the commission at least offer the opportunity to continue the evidentiary hearing to a later date to allow the applicant to either redesign that element of the project and return with a new proposal or to return with new or additional evidence that might persuade the commission that what is proposed is not in Congress with the character of the district. So for example, maybe you know, evidence of other similar, you know, more modern structures in the district or that sort of thing.

I think that if that's where this is headed, you know, where there might be certain elements of this COA application that the commission feels have been adequately proven during the evidentiary hearing, you can certainly address those tonight and then work with the applicant. You know, You can either deny the remaining portions of the application or continue those to a future hearing date.

Mr. Linton, I saw you raise your hand. Would you like to come back up to the you've heard the discussion we've just had. And I Kevin was offering some options. So I think we'd like to hear your thoughts. Thank you

for having me again. I was just discussing it with Matt. And I think we'd be perfectly willing to either move or eliminate that sauna altogether from the project, if that is a sticking point. Likewise, with the chip and nail railing. I mean, if we feel like that's just too much detail, it can just go. And that will be perfectly all right, too. So I think that's what we were discussing.

So then thank you for So then I think what we may propose as a motion tonight is that we put forward a motion with those two changes in the record. And that's what we would be voting on as a motion. The other option would be we continue your application until next month, allow you a chance to adjust those things or sort of think about it, and then resubmit. And we'd have a discussion next month. So if you want more time to consider the discussion and decide what you'd like to do, we can continue to next month. Those are your options, essentially.

And for what it's worth, think and I don't know that this is where you all might want to go or not. And staff can correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that there would if any of these changes might affect kind of the overall context of the proposal, I don't see any reason and again, I'll defer to staff. I don't know where we are with certain deadlines. But it might be possible to continue the entire application to next month if you all want to tinker with anything and maybe suggest alternatives.

Which is not unusual. Mean, I think with the projects that are the size and scale of the one that you're undertaking, it's not unusual for us to continue if there are discussion points because you haven't had a chance to hear what our concerns are. And so if you just whatever you feel most comfortable with is how we'll proceed. Okay. Okay. Sure. No problem.

So I think what Matt was just saying, which makes a lot of sense to me, is that I feel like we'd I think we'd love to go ahead and have you vote on it, if it's possible to vote on it, with the removal of those two pieces that we discussed, the chip nail railing and the sauna, just to have that on the record. And then if we do need to come back

again anyway, then You have the right to amend an existing COA if you choose to make changes in the future. So if something needs to be reconsidered again, that's often what happens as well.

Okay, great. So I think that would be our preference, if that's Okay.

So just so I'm clear on the motion we'd be passing, is that the sauna would not be part of the COA application, the placement of that sauna and the Chippendale railing on the garden house.

I think that's right. Yeah. Since it seemed like those were probably the two biggest sticking points. Yeah.

Please, Kevin.

Just want to make sure

that the mic is on. And so with the removal of the sauna, would that also mean you'd be removing or perhaps filling in the gap

in That's the a good point. I

suspect that's probably true. I don't know that there's a reason to

have a lot So in the I would remind you that there is also the opportunity to extend, just continue this to next month. So if there's things that you feel pressured to make decisions about tonight that are going to make you uncomfortable, then I might suggest a continuation so you've got a chance to consider. But again, we'll proceed as you would like.

I think it's okay just because I think they are fairly isolated components of the whole thing. So think it's perfectly all right. I think we would eliminate the sauna and the little sort of opening doorway through the wall that takes you to what otherwise wouldn't be a destination. And the railing, and the Chippendale railing as well, just to kind of simplify the garden house itself.

Well, for what it's worth, keeping a little gap in the wall without the sign behind it, it's still going be a cool little

Well, actually would be cool, wouldn't it?

Zen view that'll cut out. I think that you'll actually kind of like that.

I take it back. We'll keep the hole in the wall.

Think I would recommend keeping the hole in

the So we'll contain the adjustments to the application to the sauna and the Chippendale railing on the garden house.

I think that's perfect. Thank you so much.

Don, could I ask you to

equal opportunity? You are allowed to freestyle.

And I think with the adjustments that we just talked about, please.

So it starts

with the underlying part.

Move that the application is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to the application relevant provisions of the Lumo and HTC design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and specifically referenced in this motion with the exception of is that a good way to put it? Removal of the chip and deer railing on the low sloped roof and the removal of the sonic component behind the stone wall.

Thank you, Don. Second. And a second from David. So I will now take a vote. Laura.

May I make a comment or is it too late?

Yeah. No, please. Yeah.

I I just wanted to offer a friendly amendment that the height of the chimney is reduced because I think when the railing comes off, the chimney is going to be sticking up really, really high. Would you consider lowering it to some

proportion? This, to me, is an example of I want to make sure you don't feel pressure to make changes in the moment that you then have to come back and do an amendment to if you'd rather continue so you have a chance to really carefully consider. Again, it would be a suggestion. If

you could come speak in the mic if you're addressing the commission, that would

be appreciated.

And actually, I'm going just so we're following procedure, I'm gonna swear you in So if you would, state your name and say I so affirm after the statement, please. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth I so affirm.

I so affirm. Matthew Dell, homeowner. Thank you. Thank you for the consideration and I think the feedback. Everything that we're talking about here are things that we've looked at sort of multiple times. So there's little it's a Rubik's cube. And so I think it's Okay. I would just like to share something a little bit about sort of what we were attempting to do in the design and why we're comfortable with some of the changes, or at least I'm comfortable with some of the changes that are being given back. The broad view from our backyard is actually Raleigh Road and the UNC parking lot. And so that's what we see when we look out of our back door.

And so when the width of the property is actually or the secondary structure is actually somewhat intended to block some of the traffic noise and then create a little bit of a space in between the two properties so that we have a sort of a more quiet backyard in between. And so that's sort of the purpose of the design structure. What I asked Kobi to do was to take the peaks in the house that I think are really beautiful and just invert them. And so the idea was if you see sort of old barns or things like that that have been connected with glass. That was sort of the inspiration for it was to take the peaks of the house, put them almost like puzzle pieces in the backyard, and then connect them with glass.

So I think some of the elements around it that you're pointing out are things that we tried to find places for or tried to pull in so they're not that hard to take out. I think removing the structure or the fencing, the lattice along the top is no problem. I think hearing earlier the discussion on simple, I sort of was thinking, was that unsimple in some respects? So I hear that in sort of the design language. The chimney is very functional.

It's an indooroutdoor space. The inside, it's the center of the living room space. The outside, it's the center of the patio. And so very comfortable shortening it because I do think it will stick out a little bit in it. But I think we could almost align it along the tops of the peaks. And it will

It'll have to project a little bit above For code. For

code. Yeah. But I think we could use code as our guideline as opposed to having it be an architectural element. The sauna is for winter. But the sauna can go somewhere else. And the sauna can go inside. The sauna could go in our garage. Sauna goes. So that's not a reason to, I think, spend a lot of time moving things around. So I guess what I'd just like to say is appreciate actually learning a little bit about what is good or bad or what you like to see or don't like to see. And I just wanted to share as a homeowner what our objective was a little bit about the road and what we see out of our back windows. Because that's probably different than what you would expect from the street. You don't see that. That's what we see from our kitchen.

Thank Thank you very much. So

the motion could be amended to also include to lower the chimney to within code minimums because you have to be two feet above the ridge if you're 10 feet away from it. It's it's a very clear code.

Is the height of the chimney does lowering it make it not incongruous with the character of the district?

I think, yes. I think that's right. So I think it would so lowering the height would

Help make it not incongruous.

Exactly. We would submit a COA that says yes. That chimney is approved at the lower height, if that makes sense.

And I think what Don proposed makes sense. So we have to keep it two feet above any roof within 10 feet. And so if we brought it down to just be two feet above the ridges of the gables, actually, the gables ridges are actually more than 10 feet away from it. So it would actually be even lower than that. But we could bring it down to sort of code minimum, which would actually probably drop it six feet from what's shown in the elevation.

I say, if we put code minimum in our motion, then it's

Then we have a reference point.

For quasi legal group. It's a good way to reference it.

Yeah. Can I make a new motion just so we have a clean record? I move that the application be approved with the following

modifications. So

Laura made an amendment. I think you all have to vote on that amendment before you can make

an actually update. She was the first one that I asked. She was the first one I called Rolland. So I think we can actually just pause and amend the motion that Don made, I think. So

I mean, I think the most procedurally correct thing to do, Sharnika's correct, would be to vote on the motion that's on the floor. That motion would fail presumably. Then a new motion could be made. I think that we could all Don could also withdraw his motion, And then a new one could be made. That is a little bit sloppier procedurally, but is also something we can do. I think that that would be a little bit more expeditious.

Don? Well, me withdrawing my motion seems a little less harsh than the other way. So I withdraw my motion.

So thank you for withdrawing. And then David, did you want to take a crack at a new motion?

Sure. I move that the application for certificate of appropriateness be granted with the following modifications, which are that the Chippendales railing be removed, that the chimney height be decreased to building code minimum, and that the sauna be removed.

Don, would you like to second that?

I will second it.

Okay. So now we're going to take a vote. Thank you. Thank you. Laura.

I vote yes. Glenn?

Yes.

Nancy? Aye. David? Aye. Don? Aye. And the chair votes aye. So thank you very much for the discussion. And the COA is approved as outlined. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Okay. So we have one more item on the agenda for this evening, and that is officer elections. And so Sharneka, you or Anna Scott mind just sort of clarifying what we're voting on and sort of what rules for town policy we're adhering to?

Yeah. So you are voting on a new chair and vice chair. Brian's term as chair ended in September, Nancy's term well, Nancy kinda served a partial term for vice chair because she filled in for Poly when Poly left. So she could, if willing, continue on as vice chair for another year term or chair if she chooses. I think Brian has rotated. I think you've been in all of the officer

roles? Maybe. I'm I'm gonna

say yes. Yeah. That sounds good.

Yeah. So I I think we might have to do some digging to see if you were deputy vice chair or vice chair because you have to you serve like two consecutive terms in a role, then you take a break.

And I think relevant to this evening is I've been chair for two years, so I'm not eligible to be chair again. So we need a new chair, essentially.

And I really do not wish to just be vice chair, I guess, is what it would be since we don't have second vice chair anymore.

So I think I am because I think this is my, I'm in my fourth beginning of my fourth year on the and I did not serve in an officer position for the first year or two so I don't think I have been vice chair I have been chair and so I'm willing for others to serve. But if I needed to, vice chair to try to sort of fill out the officer positions, I'm willing to do that but would prefer not to. So I think the other thing I would mention is that Josh is not here tonight, but Josh, myself, and Nancy have all served as officers. So we're here as resources for anybody else that would choose to serve. Ann, Shanika, and Anna Scott are great at coaching, as is Kevin, on sort of what I mean you actually you all do all the legwork.

We're sort of here to help administer the meetings on behalf of the town and the public. And it's interesting. I think you learn a lot actually.

And Brian I'll add that Sharneka and I will officer training with the new officers to help Brian, you get accustomed to what your role is as chair and vice chair.

Can I ask a question just so we understand our options? Number one, is Josh eligible to be chair? Number two, do we think he would be willing? And number three, is it possible to elect him in absentia? And I'm not suggesting we should do that. I just want to know if it's an option.

You never miss a meeting.

Josh, this is Josh's, at least his second rotation on the commission. So he was, I think, twenty years ago or so and was and was chair then. So he's he's eminently qualified. His term ends at the end of this year. So he's only got, I think, eight more months, if I'm not mistaken, based on the chart that you all showed us. And I'm not sure it's fair to ask Josh to serve it. He's not here. And I kind of think he's done his he served.

David, to answer your question, as far as I'm aware, there is no rule or law that would prevent you all from volunteering Josh to serve as chair or vice chair. I think obviously there are the practical concerns and the question about whether he would be willing to serve at all in the first place. But I don't think there's any rule or law that would prevent you from doing that.

I suspect he would if asked assertively, but let's not do that too.

We'd let you do that, David, essentially. Not here to deal with the consequences.

That's what I was about to say. David's suggesting this, and this is his last meeting.

I

nominate Don.

Can I comment to

that? Please.

Yeah. My my issue with that is time, and I wanna make sure that I would do a good job. And I'm gonna be back and forth between Virginia a lot because of a project I'm working in there. And my wife and I are going to be traveling a lot over the next twelve, eighteen months. So that's my concern there, quite frankly.

And part of the reason we have chair and vice chair is to cover for each other. And so I think Nancy and I both have traveled a fair amount and covered for each other, and so did Nancy when she was here.

Don't know. Does anybody know how long I'm in for? Because I thought I joined replacing somebody who just had one year left.

You were in your first term. Your term ends 06/30/2027.

Man, I got roped into a full term. See, Josh did that. I like your idea about Josh, though. He did that. He said, you're going to be replacing somebody that only has one year left to see if you like

Well, I said we shouldn't do that to him. But if you nominate him, I'll second him. It'll be your fault. If

Brian is your vice chair, I mean, he clearly knows how to run the meeting you're available.

That's part of the problem. He's so good at it. It's going to be a tough act to follow. I mean, honestly, you do a great job. Thank you. Yes. I'm not being funny when I say that. Yeah, I would be chair if nominated.

Well, you've been nominated.

Oh, Okay. Well

Is anybody else interested in serving?

I'd like to be on the commission for just a little while before I make

that choice.

Fair enough.

With next meeting. Maybe so.

It's nice to have somebody in the wings though. Right. Well

I move that we elect Don as chairman and Brian as vice chair.

If we can do it by motion, I second that. Okay.

So I think we'll just do a roll call vote, Kevin. Okay. And we'll start with Don.

Aye.

David. Aye. Nancy. Aye. Glenn. Aye. Laura. Aye. And I vote aye as well. So thank you, Don, very much.

So at the next meeting, I'm chair?

Yes.

Love the power. And I'll even give

you my book if you like.

We'll sit next to each other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay.