Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, good after, good evening. Welcome to the Tuesday, April 8, Historic District Commission meeting. I'm gonna start with a roll call. Polly? Here. Nancy? Here. Michael? Here. Josh? Here. David? Here. Clark? Present. Don? Here. And Duncan is absent as we knew he would be. Town staff sent out a copy of the agenda in advance of this meeting. If anybody has any suggested changes to the agenda, I'd like to hear them now. Otherwise, it asks for a motion to approve.

Secretary need to read the

Mr. Yes. Secretary needs to read the procedure into the record. And then I need to read the public did we skip the step? We did. Chernika, please go ahead. Sorry about that. Or Anna Scott.

I'll do that.

I'll now read into the record the following. The commission operates under NC general statutes one sixty d dash nine forty, which gives local government's historic preservation authority and the Chapel Hill land use management ordinance, including Article three, which established the local historic districts and sets forth regulations governing them, and the Chapel Hill Historic District's design principles and standards, which sets forth standards for changes in the historic districts and the rules of procedure adopted by the Chapel Hill Historic District Commission, as well as the significance reports from all three historic districts and photos. I also call to your attention each of the applications and associated materials in your agenda packet. All of these items are hereby entered into the record. Thank you.

Thank you, Anna Scott. And then I will read the public charge. The advisory body pledges its respect to the public. The body asked the public to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner both with the body and with fellow members of the public. Should any member of the body or any member of the public fail to observe this charge at any time, the chair will ask the offending person to leave the meeting until that individual regains personal control. Should decorum fail to be restored, the chair will recess the meeting until a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed. Thank you. Okay, back to the agenda. Does anybody have any suggested changes to the agenda? Hearing none, could I ask for a motion I to

move to approve the agenda as presented.

Second. Second. Thank you, Polly and Josh. All in favor, if you would say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Okay. That passes unanimously. Thank you. Shanika and Anna Scott, do we have any announcements?

We do. So I sent you all an email earlier this week. We still need two commissioners to, complete CLG training by September. So staff are working on a workshop in May in May with, the Orange Chatham Realtor Association and Preservation Chapel Hill. So if two of you attend that, that would also count, to meet their your CLG training.

Duncan, Michael, and Clark's terms are ending in June, so you all can reapply. I'm just time's got one. Yep. Sorry. So the the link to reapply is available on the town's boards and commissions page.

And we hope you do a reapply, please.

At tomorrow's council meeting, there's an item on the consent agenda to call a hearing for text amendments to the procedures for boards and commissions. I think that text amendment would reduce board size to seven members. Even if you all reapply, I don't think it would affect the board right now. If you have nine members, we're not gonna remove anybody off the board, but that change might be coming in June. And a reminder to please speak into the microphones. Thank you.

And towards that end, speaking into the microphone, so do we need to let you know if we'll go to that, real estate thing in May?

You can, but we are gonna gonna work on the invitation with the steering committee. But we'll we'll send you all out the information for that workshop.

Okay. Great. Because I'll I'll probably go to that.

Okay. Thank you.

Me too.

I have

a question about the certified local government training, and this seems like the right time to ask it. I did look on the page, and the one that appealed to me is the one that's given by the Institute of Government. However, there's a fee attached to that. Is the town exempted from that fee?

No. I think Anna Scott and I are going to that training for quasi judicial procedures that the school of government is having. We did have to pay it. I don't know if there's a budget for commissioner training, but we can check.

Okay. Thank you. Any other announcements? Polly?

Well, everybody knows this is my last meeting.

So this is Polly's last meeting. We're gonna talk a little bit about the implications of that a bit later in the agenda. But I do feel like this is an appropriate time to say thank you for your service to the Historic District Commission. You told me earlier that you had served on the CDC I think for twelve years or So two decades of service to the town of Chapel Hill. Thank you and congratulations. Well, thank you.

Thank you very much.

She's going to take the gavel after the meeting just because, you know, I'm just kidding. For your for home use, but thank you for your service to the town hall.

Well, thank you.

Amazing. Any other announcements? Okay. Anna Scott and Shaniqua, were there any petitions? No. Thank you. So the staff also sent out copy of the minutes with the agenda. They're attached to the meeting for March 11. Were there any comments or clarifications about those minutes? If not, I would ask for motion to approve, please.

I so move.

Thank you, Polly. Second. Thank you. Was that David? Michael. Thank you, David. Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay that passed unanimously, thank you. So second item on the agenda is the written decision associated with 5 East Rosemary which was on the agenda for last month and the written decision and the COA placard are attached. Procedure is that we would approve those also and then I will sign them. So I would ask for a motion to approve the written decision in the COA placard for 500 East Rosemary Street. So moved. Thank you Josh.

I'll second.

Thank you Michael. All in favor please say aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay that passes unanimously. Thank you. So we have old business which is 208 Spring Lane and Josh I think you're gonna recuse yourself and Do

I think we have to vote to recuse him?

I was just going to say

All in favor please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay that passes unanimously. Thank you Polly. And thank you Josh. Would you all like to staff wants to introduce.

I swear me in.

Oh, you have to swear.

Josh this script is going to seem very familiar but if you would say I so affirm and state your name after please. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm.

I so affirm. Josh Grolitz.

Thank you. Floor is yours.

Okay. Well, thank you all. This is a pretty straightforward application. I live in a house that I built in 1983, which is on Spring Lane, which is in the Historic District, of course. Look at that, somebody changed it to April 8.

Very good, thank you. This is where the house is. This is East Rosemary Street, Franklin Street. There are several houses, mine included, which are in this central area that really don't have frontage on any public street. This house, our house, is in back of a sorority, and it's accessed off of Spring Lane, which is right here.

For those of you who are, I guess you can see down here, I hope you can see my moving of the cursor. The house is tucked in back there. This is an aerial photograph. The house is back here. Some of these trees have been removed, but the house is not very visible from Rosemary Street, or from Spring Lane, or really from Friendly Lane.

We are interested in installing solar panels on the south facing roof, and a few solar panels on the west facing roof. This was taken in the I guess in February after the sorority had done some brush removal back here, and before we had painted our roof. The roof is a metal roof. It's a barn roof, and it's 43 years old. It gets painted every ten years with a specific rust oleum barn roof paint.

That's the south facing roof, and that would be the roof that would have most solar panels on it. This is the front of the house, and the front of the house faces into a completely enclosed courtyard. And I would say that the houses, we built all the houses back in this little cluster between 1981 and 1983. And it's a pretty, it is a good example of what a cluster could be for our new communities initiative. This photograph, the roof has been painted when this photograph was taken.

This shows the, there are I think 27 panels here on the south side. You'll notice that we don't have very many windows back there. It faces a parking lot for the sorority. The house really orients west and north. So there are 27 panels on the south facing roof, and we have four panels on this west facing small roof.

These are what the this is a construction drawing for the panels. The panels are thin photovoltaics. They sit about four and a half inches above the roof. And this is a plan view of the 27 that are facing south. And that completes my presentation.

I'm happy to answer questions or see if anybody's here to comment. I will say, thinking about people here to comment, last Sunday we had a homeowner's association for the houses in our cluster. And the homeowner's association voted unanimously to enable us to put these on the roof.

Thank you. Josh? Anybody have clarifying questions for Josh?

This really doesn't affect the look, but I was curious, the solar panels you're using, are they for hot water or to create electricity to put

them They're in photovoltaics that create electricity. We have a battery attached to it so that we can live through cloudy days.

Gotcha. So you've got a backup battery system. That's awesome.

Okay.

Are there other houses in the neighborhood that have installed the panels?

Yes, there are. Let's see. I don't think you can well, actually well, commission approved panels on this house about two years ago. And so this house has panels on it.

On the west facade? Pardon? On the west facade or west facing plane?

No, they face south too. This house is sort of an L. 1990, and there are panels that, even though there is a lot of west facing roof, it has south facing roof also. Most

of the panels face the parking lot for the sorority house. Is that right?

Most of our panels face the parking lot for the sorority.

Any other questions for Josh? Any member of the public that wants to comment? Okay, Josh, give us just a couple minutes, please, sir. Is there any need for discussion?

Hearing

none, I would love for someone to make a motion and I have a script if anybody needs it. Does somebody else like to practice since it's always last?

I move for someone who's within reach of your script to make a motion. Okay.

I was

gonna offer one too. I

move that the application is not in congress with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HTC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and as specifically referenced in this motion. Well, this is more confusing than I had anticipated. I move that it's not in Congress with the applicable standards.

So you got most of it. Think the only addition would be you move that we also approve the COA placard which allows us to sort of issue the certificate of appropriateness for construction to take place.

So moved. Okay.

Second.

Second. Okay. Thank you. And thank you. I'll take roll on this one. And I will start at this end of the dais. Clark?

Aye.

Don? Aye. Nancy?

Aye.

Polly?

Aye.

Michael? Aye. David? Aye. And the chair votes aye, passes unanimously. Thank you very much. I'll take my script back if you don't mind just in case we need that one more time tonight. Thank you Thank very you Josh and please welcome back to the dais. Okay we're gonna move on to the next item on the agenda which is 742 Gimgel Road. Good evening. Hi there. I'm going to read a statement and after that statement if you agree with that statement if you would please state your name and say I so affirm. Anna Scott or Shanika do you have anything you want to say before?

I'll just say that this application is to amend a previously approved COA for Gim Gold Castle.

I'm going to read a brief statement if you would state your name and say I so affirm after please. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth, I so affirm.

Craig Ward, I affirm.

Thank you. Please go ahead.

Good evening, everyone. So I come tonight to discuss a small modification to the Gimgall Castle that was previously approved almost a year ago now, actually. I have I've included in the presentation pictures of the existing castle. I'm sure all of you are familiar with it, but I can go through them if you like, but this gives you the north elevation quickly, and it shows the cylindrical tower on the front of the building, which is really the key subject to tonight, or its reference. Here we have another view from the, from the north looking at it diagonally.

This is the far side or the west side of it, where the chimney is. And then this is the rear of the building where the work is scheduled to take place, that was previously approved. So tonight, we're really wanting to just discuss, again, excuse me, this is another view, from the west, again, the work's going to take place actually on the left side of this picture here. It's being omitted. I'm sorry.

Pardon me. So, the issue tonight is, the original application called for the loggia that connects the extension of the new restroom addition to have a tower on the end of it that sticks out over the patio area, and then a set of steps that came down directly from it, out onto what they're calling the new lookout point. And in consideration of the building of it, the board, the Gimgul board and such, come to the conclusion that that tower, even though out there on the side, really, it takes away from the character of the castle, in that the castle is what they call, or refer to as, understated. It is the Gothic architecture, the Roman architecture with the arches, the rocks and everything, and adding this secondary tower to the back of it, they feel like it begins to take away from the front tower and the focal point of the castle as you approach it going forward. It is convenient too that they have some budget issues and deleting the tower also helps with that and allows us to spend some more money inside the castle to do some additional work that the building officials would like to do as part of the construction as well.

So tonight, it's really the only change from the previous plan, is instead of the tower being here as my cursor's pointing, there is no tower there, and the stairs has been rotated 90 degrees to come down parallel to the existing exterior wall. And then there's a landing at mid rise down, that landing is purposeful, it gives them a chance for a speaker to stand there to speak or talk in the evenings or when presentations are done outside, or at ceremonies and such. The lookout tower, excuse me, the lookout remains in its same position here, and of course, this is the fire pit that gonna be semi reconstructed, it's got some damage to it, we're gonna be fixing it while we're out there doing all this stonework. Is it appropriate to ask if there's any questions as I go through this,

or do

we go through all

of it? If you would maybe just finish your presentation, then we'll ask clarifying questions.

This is an elevation showing the tower that we're going to be emitting. The same, everything else in the elevation stays the same with the addition of the restrooms. This is the new elevation looking at it from the side with the tower missing here. The door that was on the backside, we've moved it around to this side just for accessibility and ease of loading the building and access to the building, and not take away from the patio or area or the terrace in the rear of the tower, the rear of the structure. Again, another elevation from the rear, showing with the tower, and you can see both of those elevations there.

And this is now an elevation showing it without the tower and the stairs coming down the side against the existing wall. And then finally, probably the best way to show it is, this is a rendering, a VDC rendering, without the tower and showing the new steps coming down parallel to the wall with the intermittent landing, walking out onto the terrace and the lookout. So that that's really the presentation. It's just the elimination of the tower tonight.

Thank you. The clarifying questions from commissioners. I do have one just clarifying what we're looking at currently on screen. It's essentially the back of the castle. Is that true? Right?

Yes, sir. Got Yeah, it's showing the new terrace down below.

Other questions? Is there any member of the public that would like to comment? See anybody, but just making sure, cover our bases. Okay, if you would take a seat for a second, we'll have a conversation and we'll be back with you. Is there any discussion needed?

I agree that not having the additional tower is a good decision, that it really preserves the original intent of the building.

Right, I think I agree, and I think from if you were standing on the patio, not having the tower gives

more of

a sense of spaciousness.

I do recall that when we when this came through, for approval, I don't recall any comments that, any comments from any commissioners that felt that the tower was an important part of the composition. And my own feeling is the same as Nancy and Polly's

that

the forms work just as well without the tower as with it.

Okay. I would entertain a motion, and I have a script. Clark would like to practice.

I move that the application for

742 Gimgall.

742 Gimgall Road is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HDC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record and as specifically referenced in this motion. And I move that the historic district commission approve the written decision and direct the chair to sign it.

Good.

Second.

Thank you, David. Okay, so I will take a vote, and I will start this end this time. David? Aye. Michael? Aye. Josh? Aye. Polly?

Aye.

Nancy? Aye. Don. Aye. Anne Clark. Aye. And the chair votes aye, passes unanimously. Thank you very much.

Thank Okay.

So next item on the agenda is officer election. So let me give some context for that. So Polly is moving out of Chapel Hill and so she is stepping down from her district district commission position. Polly is currently the vice chair of the commission, and so we would like to replace Polly's position as vice chair on the commission, and I believe the way that that works is that we're replacing you for the balance of this term essentially which we think goes through August. So we'll actually have officer elections again later this summer and I'm actually serving my second term as chair so I will not be eligible to serve as again.

I think vice chair is a very nice way to get some experience in the procedures associated with the commission, and we need someone to step into that position.

Oh, and Nancy isn't going to, she's finishing up

Are you also?

She's She's finishing

up what? Finishing her term,

finishing your second term. I don't think so. I think I have one more year. No, no,

no, you've been vice, oh, correct.

Deputy vice chair.

Deputy vice chair, right, twice, so I think.

So there is a term limit on the officer positions, and so with that in mind, we would like to elect someone to replace Polly as vice chair when she steps off, that would go into effect for the next meeting, and that would be effective essentially for the next few months. We would talk about officer elections again this summer, which would include Chair, Vice Chair, and Deputy Vice Chair. So, we're doing essentially a special election to replace Polly, as she steps off the commission. That is the context for this item on the agenda. Is anybody interested?

Or who's interested I should say? And you can just speak up and say I'm interested in serving. I know it's a little awkward, but here we are.

I may be rolling off in June.

David Clark Don, would you be interested in serving? Josh has served in all these positions in your long tenure on the HDC and your second tour of duty.

And I think I'm coming close to

think you're all my next second year, yeah.

I'm not sure exactly what year, but I shouldn't be preparing to step into something.

Well, think of the vice chair position as, you know, you can test it out to see if you want to run and sit down.

And it's, know, from a responsibility standpoint, it is if I, so last meeting I was out of town, I could not be here, so Polly stepped in and my Steve to run the meeting. We do do an officers meeting in the morning of this meeting to prepare to make sure we've got ourselves ready for this meeting, and then it's interaction with our council liaison, Camille, and then sort of other discussions that need to come up to make sure that these meetings are run effectively. That's essentially what you're signing up for.

Is the time commitment like

in the morning?

An hour. Because of the

nature It's of your usually less, but occasionally it is a full hour. And

what I would say about that is that during hours that we know the town staff are available, so 11:00 is just the time that kind of all works for us. I don't know if that's necessarily fixed, but we'd want to respect their time also, so it is normally during office hours, that's what I would say. It doesn't have to be that day, it could be the day before. If I'm putting too much pressure on folks and you don't feel comfortable doing this now, I'd ask you to think about it between now and the next meeting, because we will need folks stepping into these positions later this year. So, why don't we continue this to next meeting, and we'll talk about it again next month, making sure you and I are both here.

We'll see.

Might not be here next month.

We'll have a discussion about making sure we have items on the agenda that we actually need an in person meeting, and that we've got more. So we'll continue this item to next commission meeting. From a discussion item standpoint, we do have several things we wanted to discuss. There are a couple of subcommittees that are currently chartered. Nancy, do you want to give a brief update?

It will be brief because brief information is all that I have. But as I understand it, the town communications team is going to put some information in the town news about preservation month. As I understand it, the town only provides the information or links to entities that are part of the town or get funding from the town. Much as we would like to have

on

the town side information about other organizations, as I understand it, that's not possible under the town's current communications policy, but there will be some recognition. And I spoke with Camille just now. Tomorrow, I'm going to send Jeannie Brown, who's the clerk of the council, last year's proclam well, whatever Jeannie's title is. Last year's proclamation with the proclamation request form, and that will go before counsel. I believe that they're not tomorrow, but the meeting later this month with saying that May is preservation month.

And I am going to send them last year's, that they pretty much developed. And if counsel or their staff want to make changes, of course, that's up to them. So that's basically where we are. We have had a number of meetings over the years. Know, I want to thank Josh and Polly and David for their work on this. And Brian. And Brian, sorry. Yes. So that's basically the update. Happy preservation month.

Thank you. We also have a subcommittee that has been working on what we had termed a look book for the historic district commissions. I think we need to talk about next steps on that based on feedback we got in our last discussion about that. I think we'll do that at the retreat we've got scheduled for later this month. I think those are our two subcommittee items.

The next item from a discussion standpoint is the agenda for the upcoming retreat. Shanika and Anna Scott very nicely gave us a hard copy of that. So, if you all have got a copy of that in front of you, I've got one extra if anybody needs one. So, if you want to take just a second to browse at that agenda and then I'm going to tell you a couple things we talked about this morning that I think we're going to adjust. Okay, see a few eyes up off your paper, so I'll continue the conversation on this.

So it's scheduled for April 25 from twelve to five at the library. Lunch is gonna be served at noon, the town omnibud Ross gonna be facilitating, so he'll be there to help facilitate this meeting. Town staff is also welcome. Camille, I think you are out of town or you have another commitment, so we're gonna miss you on this one. But we'll give you a report afterwards, and we'll think nice thoughts about you, maybe put a picture

We'll miss you.

So we feel your presence in the room. So after lunch, we are gonna do a bit of a get to know you. I think the discussion this morning was it felt like the prompts were a bit off point for what our purpose is as a historic district commission, so these prompts will likely be more along the lines of why are you interested in this type of work, do you have a professional background in this type of work, what historic building to you is most meaningful in town, sort of the things that of ground us a little bit more on what the purpose of the commission is. So we'll give Ross that feedback and change those prompts to be more on topic, let's say. And then the other discussion we had this morning was sort of a question for the commission about the second item on the agenda, which I think is really intended to talk about the spirit of constructive disagreement, and given that there's a quasi judicial component of what we do, and we are being recorded in front of the public, sort of how do we constructively disagree with each other, and do folks feel like they know how to do that in a way that we all agree to, and that is comfortable, and so that we actually get to the best solutions for the public and in the interest of the town, but we're not too awkwardly having those conversations with each other.

Just to give some context for that particular item. So I think that one item that we would like some feedback on does that feel like a topic that's worth spending time on, and then I would open it up just for commission feedback or discussions on the agenda to make sure this feels like it reflects what you all want to talk about and previous feedback for the subcommittee that's been working on this agenda. Sort of our last time to make adjustments and then we'll have Ross help us lock this down.

I think, I'm not gonna be there, but the design standards thing, I think, Anja was keeping a list, oh, sorry, for the design standards review, Annie was keeping a list, I thought, of things that have been brought up, so I assume that will be available to people. Yes.

Sharnika and I are going to compile a list of resources to send you all, and that list will be included. Our hope is to send that the beginning of next week, so you'll have about ten or more days to review it before the retreat.

That's great. Thank you. I suspect fences will be on that list. What? Fences will be on that think fences will be on that list.

One thing that I don't see that's on this is any discussion about the boundaries of the historic district, which is something that we have raised from time to time. And it might be important, especially now that there is an effort to establish a new historic district. I think maybe some of the time that is devoted an awful long time, that forty five minutes at the beginning, some of that might be moved into that issue. I don't know if others feel that way, but I think that's a substantive area that might be helpful to think about.

What I would propose is the next to last item on the agenda, so planning for future growth and development, think sort of fits, I'd probably add that as a topic to discuss during that period of time. And then maybe tightening up the how do we, how do people feel about meetings. So tightening that up to about thirty minutes, giving us fifteen more minutes there. So we've got the appropriate amount of time to talk about it.

Thank you, I think Great. That's

Any other feedback? Something that you wish was there that's not? Anything that's majorly missing? Okay, well that's good. Okay, so we will distribute a revised version of this agenda with those couple of tweaks. And then Anna Scott and Trinika, I'll communicate that back via email tomorrow so Ross knows what we talked about and we'll aim to get all that information out next week. That sound good? Okay. Anything else from a discussion item standpoint? If not, that was a very tight forty minutes. We will adjourn the meeting. Thank you very much.