Board and Commission - Regular Meeting

I'm Heather Washburn, the chair of the Community Design Commission. I'm calling this meeting to order. It's 532, and I will start with roll call. Patrick Brennan?

Present.

John Biggs?

Here.

Jim Farren?

Present.

Kim, we know is going to be out. I am not seeing Kelsey Brinkley or Annie. And again, I'm Heather Washburn and I am here. Okay. I would like to move on to the approval of agenda, but I wanted to ask if My fellow commissioners, I was looking at our agenda and I'd like to move Hillmont development up to the consent agenda if everybody else approves of that. If you don't approve, can you voice your opinion? And then can I get a motion to move it to the consent agenda?

I make a motion to move the Hillmont development to the consent agenda.

Do I have a second?

Second.

Second from John. And then, hey, there's Annie. Annie, we were just getting ready to vote to move the Hillmont development to the consent agenda. It's just been seconded. And if you approve, can you use your little hand sign to raise your hand in approval? or your real hand. I got one, two, three. John, what say you?

I'm confirmed.

Okay.

Sorry, I was trying to find the hand in here. Oh, I see it. There it is.

No worries. And Annie seems to be having some issues with audio, but with four approvals, it passes. So Hillmont Development will move to the consent agenda. And with not everybody here, I'd like to add to next month's meeting a discussion for who will become the next chair and co-chair. Does anybody have an issue with that?

No.

I just wanted to formalize it. I don't know. Corey, do we need to have a vote on that so that we can get it on the agenda for next time or just add it then?

Um, we're, we're aware that next month would be a good time. So I think we can accommodate that having on the agenda. Um, yeah, we'll just, we'll just know it's on the June agenda for a discussion of officer appointments and, uh, potential for election of office.

Okay. All right. So, um, The only changes then that have been made is that we've moved Helmont up to the consent agenda. Can I get a motion for approval of our revised agenda?

I make a motion to approve the revised agenda.

Can I get a second? I second that agenda. Annie has seconded it. Raise your hand if you approve. All five are approved. It carries. Let's jump on to, are there any announcements?

I'll share that we have some new member appointments. This group took up recommendations of those who had applied and then it was on the council agenda last week and town council has appointed Kelly Mills and I I won't say the name right but Rachel to shabby to uh Community Design Commission seats um I believe to with terms starting July 1st based on um open seats uh to come okay we look forward to welcoming them Yeah, and staff will be reaching out to confirm with them, give us some office, do some onboarding, so they'll hopefully be ready by then. I mentioned this as we were starting, since Heather asked, but uh we we do need to catch up a little bit on minutes from past meetings it seems so I know that April minutes we're still in process um uh as of tonight so we've got that in mind to um do some extra approvals of minutes uh hopefully on the next agenda okay um do we have any petitions

It doesn't seem like so. So let's move on to the consent agenda. Do I have a motion to approve the consent agenda?

Heather, I make a motion to approve the consent agenda.

Can I have a second?

I second it.

Tim Farron has seconded. All those that are approved, can you please raise your hand? Motion carries. All right. We are ready for new business. West Rosemary Hotel.

I'll provide a brief introduction. The West Rosemary Hotel that's on your agenda tonight is at the corner of Rosemary and Columbia Street in downtown Chapel Hill. The site kind of frames the parcel that contains historic town hall, so it's at that corner. for folks keeping track or who have kept up with with past work of the Commission. This project has come before you in the past with the review of the building elevations. The, that has made some modifications. I'll talk to you about, um. The project is still in the process of getting zoning permits from the town. Um, so, as you may be familiar from seeing the site, um, this, this. Project has yet to begin construction, uh, even even with it being reviewed by the spot in the past. AND IT DID COME THROUGH TOWN COUNCIL A FEW YEARS AGO FOR A CONDITIONAL ZONING APPROVAL. SO KIND OF THE SCALE OF THE BUILDING, USE OF HOTEL AT THE SITE IS APPROVED BY COUNCIL. AND TONIGHT AS OPPORTUNITY CONSIDERED, THE NEW VERSION OF THE BUILDING ELEVATIONS PROVIDE COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK ON WHAT THE APPLICANT PRESENTS WITH THOSE. DAN, I'M GOING TO TURN IT OVER TO YOU.

Thanks, Corey. Hey, everybody. Good to see you. I'm Dan Jewell with Thomas and Hutton. We've been and with us here tonight also is Gail Wallace with Clarendon Properties. She's one of the members of the owners group, and she and I have been working together for what, Gail? Six or seven years, maybe now. I think it was pre-COVID maybe on moving this project along. So we're happy to get here now because we think we are here. We made some changes to the building in the pursuit of getting more guest rooms primarily, and those have rippled through to the building elevations, which I will share in a moment. We were also able to get rid of one level of the parking, I believe. And I think we've been working with the town to provide work on other parking spaces. Since the project was originally approved, the amazing Rosemary parking deck has been completed. And as we all know, that's a two-minute walk down the street. And the 20 or 30 times I've parked in that parking deck now at all hours of the day, I've never had to go above the first floor to park in it. So I think that's probably a good arrangement for the town that they have. they've been able to work that out and not, you know, having more parking on site has always been a goal. Uh, so with that, if I can just, uh, share really quickly, um, see application window. All right. Are you all able to see my screen? Okay, great. So what I am going to do is try and flip back and forth between the, um, original building elevations that the CDC reviewed back five years ago or so and the modest changes that have rippled through based on the interior layout. We did not change the massing of the building or anything like that. We spent a lot of time working that out with Brian Peterson and staff and council members. The way the building steps down toward adjacent neighborhoods and that sort of thing. So that all remains the same. Basically, it's a matter of where do we have fenestration in terms of windows and just a little bit of changes to the way the brick is broken up, things of that nature. So just to start, the north elevation is the one that faces the neighborhood north of the proposed site. The original elevation, you can see, had a combination of a couple of different brick colors. And this level was parking, which is why that's so open. We needed airflow to get through that sort of thing. And also we had a lower level parking. The south elevation is the elevation that phases West Rosemary Street. And just for reference, This building is the old historic town hall that sits at the site right now at the corner. We spent a lot of time working with the town on that. This is the mass of the building that recedes back. And you can see the original elevation had parking here, a parking level here as well with an entrance. So that was all grilled for airflow. And then this mass comes out to West Rosemary Street to address the street. If I go to the new elevation, if I can get down to it, there we go. So here now we have that new proposed north elevation. It's very subtle, but you can see we actually have introduced some, maybe like a third brick element in there to further break up that look of the building. And whereas this level was at one time parking, it is now some guest rooms, um, and amenities for the guest fitness center, things of that nature, a little, little back of the house. Um, I'm going to go back to the original elevation and jump around. So I compare apples to apples on the elevations. Um, this whoops, this is the original. west elevation of the wall. So again, this would face over toward the, I guess the AC hotel, sort of that side of the building. And you can see what we did is we created the actual entrance, drive up entrance to the building on the west wall, because at one time we had parking in the courtyard in the middle, but we've eliminated that. So, you know, this was the entrance element there. and uh what that looked like in terms of of the the total mass of the building addressed from the street in a iconic element in a couple different colors of brick the new west elevation there you go um you can see we've uh it's the massing is the same we've introduced again a third brick color in there to again break up that mass a little bit but again we have that I what we call the branding elevation all in the same location in the color of the brick here changed just a little bit. If I go back now to the. Next elevation.

Which was the.

South again, I described that a minute ago on the original elevation, the new elevation. now has that parking level has been eliminated. So again, there's guest rooms in here, some fitness, that sort of thing. Everything else is generally the same except for that introduction of a brick color. And I think we've strengthened the base here, this portion of the building that comes out to West Rosemary Street. And then finally, this is the east elevation this is the elevation that faces uh south columbia slash martin luther king jr boulevard so again this would be the historic town hall to the front we work carefully to make sure that the brick is complementary to that we still have that we have that iconic branding element here because this would be Another entrance, but this would come off of a park that we're actually working with the town to create in the middle here. This portion comes out to South Columbia and, or North Columbia, excuse me. And this is the portion that goes over toward West Rosemary. So then if I go over to the new elevation for that, oops, I went right past it. So we still have that iconic element there. in the middle and the east elevation again is the same other than previously there had been parking behind this wall but that did not ripple through to the street because we worked carefully with Brian Peterson to create some I'll say for lack of a better term some marquee spaces that face Columbia opportunity for public art, private art, things of that nature, things a little bit different. But those, the rest of the elevation remained pretty much the same, again, other than some minor changes in color. So really that is it. We eliminated a level of parking, gained some restrooms, that changed the fenestration in this area and along this facade as well. And we, you know, been a little more thoughtful about the final brick colors and things of that nature. So that's what we wanted to present and be happy to hear your comments and pass those along to the owner and the architect. Thanks for your time.

Thank you. We'll start with the commissioners asking questions and go around and then go to the public and then come back for comment. Let's start with John. Can we start with you tonight?

Okay. One question I have. Between the old and the new, what I see on the screen for the new, I'm not sure if it's represented, if the colors render correctly. Anyway, what I see on the screen for the new it's the brick color is a much lighter color. What I saw with the original drawings, the brick color was very similar to the to the old town hall building. Is that changed or is there something going on with the rendering?

No, it has changed. And again, these aren't final, final colors, but after much thought on these brick colors, and Heather will tell you architects spend more than an hour or two thinking about those, we actually felt that it was maybe more important rather than try and match the color of old town hall to have something complimentary, but not the same so that it stands out as its own special historic building that it is. So it is different.

Okay. Um, so yeah, so the brick color is different. Can, can you, um, one question I have is can you talk about what, um, What design features are you having there that either on purpose relate to the old building or are intentionally different? Or I think with, with both anyway, I'll just keep it as a question because that, that basically is similar. That same question applies to either the old elevations or the new elevations. Right, right, right. Again, we didn't...

If you can just talk about the process, the thought process. Sure, sure. That's my question. Well, number one, brick, brick, brick. It would be disingenuous to do something different there. But secondarily, if you look at the shape of the punched window openings, we wanted to make sure that those were, at least in terms of the ratio... uh you know be again uh close to what is in existing town hall even though it's uh uh uh you know they're they're larger window openings i think those were the two main things and and again we uh we worked with brian peterson to get this to the point where i think everybody was uh was happy with with what we've ended up here okay thank you

Jen, are you able to go next?

With the change from a two-story to one-story, that area for the fitness center, Dan?

Yeah.

Reduce the equipment or what effect did that have on usable exercise things?

I think we actually increased it. You know, Gail can confirm that. But I believe we have more than we did before. Because remember, we eliminated this whole wing was parking. So we've taken all the parking on that level and turned it into finished, conditioned space, added more guest rooms, but we've also been able to provide a little more space for amenities like, you know, fitness center, some lounge area, things like that.

And if I can add that, that is correct. Actually, the fitness center originally was up on the fifth floor alongside some of our guest rooms. And so our choice was to bring it down to the first floor, which is more public space, which allowed us to have a little larger fitness center. And that offered us the ability to add some additional guest rooms upstairs on the fifth floor.

And one other thing, I don't know relative to the design, but I'm researching the history of this building. It started in 2021. What took five years?

Well, honestly, the cost of construction has taken us to this stage, which presented an opportunity for us to go through some minor redesign. We have... been able to, by eliminating one level of parking, that eliminated an awful lot of concrete in our construction costs and offered us the ability, again, to bring some of the amenities that were up on the fifth floor down to the first floor offered us an opportunity to add some additional guest rooms. So we've gone through a redesign and have landed here, which has made this project a lot more palatable for financing and for equity infusion. It allows us to build it.

Thank you. Annie?

Annie? Yeah, thank you for the presentation. My question was the same as John's, just inquiring about the difference in brick

It's very similar, honestly, you know, slightly lighter, but very similar to where it was originally. I do think the rendering reads a little bit lighter than what it will actually be. But the brick color certainly will blend with architecture and the other buildings that are in the area.

Great. Thank you. Patrick?

Thanks, Madam Chair. Thanks for this presentation. What is the material on the third level?

Up in here?

Yes, sir. Yeah.

Let's see. Gail, do you recall? I can zoom in on the...

It's brick. It's brick. All of, well, I'm using my cursors if you could see it. I'm sorry. The only level that is a different material, which is more of a panel versus brick, but it's still a masonry product, is up on the fifth floor.

Got it. And is the reason to do that is to give the building depth? Is that the reason for a different material?

And that's absolutely right. Years ago, when we went through city council and went through our original CDC presentations, it was desired that the fifth floor not be so... I don't know, visual, I guess, and that it almost went away. That's why it steps back in a number of different places, actually three different places. The fifth floor steps back, again, to help reduce the massing a little bit. And then the material and the color, just to visually give you an appearance that it's not... I think with the reddish color brick or the lighter color brick, that that would be a lot more visible.

Thank you so much. And if I could ask you this question, and this is really for our own edification, I know that you've served on a number of boards and commissions yourself, including here in Chapel Hill and Carrboro. But one of the things we deal with is sort of new buildings in the context of old buildings. How do you think about that from a design standpoint? And how would you encourage us to think about that?

Well, that's a... I'm not an architect. I'm a landscape architect, but I drink beer with a lot of architects. So I'll tell you what. The context is always important. Particularly a site like this, which is, as I understand it, is not in a historic district. It's close to a historic district. It is, I believe, in the West Rosemary overlay area. And if you're familiar, that study was done six or seven years ago, but I know in this case the directions from Gail and her partners to this architect from day one were to make this building complementary to the other things in Chapel Hill, particularly on Rosemary Street. You know, if they had been building this building in many other locations, I know they wouldn't have used as much brick because brick is more expensive. I know they wouldn't have done the window openings the way they did because more punched window openings rather than bigger windows is more expensive. And we worked with Brian Peterson closely on the massing of the building, which is expensive. Anytime you put a notch in a building vertically or horizontally, you're adding cost to it. So I think... Gail, I think John said from day one, this will be the most expensive hotel your group has ever built.

And that is still true. Yeah.

Yeah.

And if I can add, it's been on purpose not to try and match the historic town hall, because if you miss, you really miss. And so that was on purpose for us to complement, but not mimic what is existing.

That's really helpful. Well, Dan, thank you for that perspective. I was taking notes as you were describing it. And Gail, thanks for your thoughtful approach. No more questions for me, Heather.

Okay. Great question, though. I just have a few questions. So is it written on here somewhere about these potential art, mural or art, public art opportunities?

That was one of the conditions, stipulations of the conditional zoning approval. The 187 conditions or whatever that we agreed to.

Yeah, yeah. It's not coming across in the presentation. I read your white squares as loading for like semi-trucks coming in. And then what are the little red and...

DOT would not like us to...

Sorry, Dan. Can you repeat?

I think he froze. I can explain those, what might look like a loading dock or loading doors. Those are actually...

So first and foremost, the...

Go ahead, Dan.

Can you hear me? Can you hear me now?

Yeah. You got to get the squirrels off the line.

Yeah, I'm having some bandwidth issues, but if you can hear me, no, the squares are not loading docks. They are above the street, and DOT would not want us to back a truck out of Columbia Street into there. The loading is on the back. Those, the red things... Yeah, the red things, if you can hear me, are, Gail, I believe those are louvers.

That's correct. And are they metal? They are metal. They'll be painted to blend with the existing brick or any other type of material that is there. But yes, they're metal.

Okay. Okay.

They're part of the HVAC system in the guest rooms.

Yeah. I imagine that the brown ones are to go with the brown brick. Correct. Correct.

Yeah. Yeah. They read again in this, in this rendering, they read a little bit redder. We don't want them to stand out. We want them to go away.

And then I'm also seeing a darker banding. Is that another color of brick or is that shadow? What's happening there? It's shadow.

It's shadow. And it is, it's a shoulder, excuse me, a soldier course. So it will stick out from the building a little bit. So you've got some definitions.

No bans. Build your course. Alright. And then what is the material that is on the main entries from Columbia MLK and then on Rosemary where it has element? Does that look like a different material than your top floor material?

It is. It's a metallic coating. And it, again, it reads more of a bronze color. But it's a metallic coating. but it's not real shiny, so.

Okay. Not a lot of inflection. And then out of curiosity, what are the park elements? Dana mentioned that you guys are working with the town on park, and right now I don't see trees or vegetation or stuff, so I was curious as to how that's going to weave itself in.

Let me see if I can pull that plan up. Hold on a second. I think we have a planting plan in here. There you go. Let me zoom in a little bit.

That's really helpful. Thank you.

Heather, this is a Wendy Ramsden designed just to let you know.

No doubt.

So here it is. Excuse me. The original design, we actually had a drive-through loop in here, but it just got so crowded, we moved the entrance to the west side. And so this is, you know, other than... Gail, I don't even think we have this driveway in here anymore, do we?

No, that's correct. The driveway only goes to where the parking spaces are available for the town hall. And then the rest of the drive will have a few parking spaces right there for valet parking or valet drop-off. I don't want to call it parking, valet drop-off. But yeah, the park there, we will build that for the town, and then the town will have it as one of your city amenities.

Okay. That's all my questions. Let's open it up for public questions and comments.

So, small audience currently, but I'll invite anyone who... Anyone to use the raise hand feature if you'd like to be called in to make any comment on this item. And I'm not seeing any hands raised.

OK, we will go back through and get comments from my fellow Commissioners and in with myself. Annie, why don't we start with comments from you? Sure.

My main comment about the difference between the original and the updated, and this is probably just the difference in rendering, but I felt like within the building itself, not just in compatibility with the Old Town Hall, but just within the building itself, I just personally preferred the coloring of the metallic and the brick. I just think that the original rendering, like the newer, lighter color, I personally don't find to be so, I guess, visually compatible with the proposed metal siding and such. But that's my main comment. I don't think that's a reason for me to personally not support this.

All right. Jim, would you like to comment next?

I have no real reservations. I think they've been working five years on this project. I'm sure Okay. Move forward.

John?

Yeah, my main comment is that I think in both the original and in the new, the new building reads very generically to me. whereas the original building has a lot of detail in it. I don't really find any of that level of detail in the new building. And there's not a lot of ornament per se in the original building, but for example, there's a cornice, there's dentals, there's different features in the original building. There's maybe up toward one of the sides, there's some work in the brickwork. I don't really find that in the new building.

Are you speaking about the courthouse when you're talking about the original building?

Yeah, I'm talking about the old building.

Okay.

The old building has some level of detail in it that is from that era of buildings. And in either the original or the new elevations of the new building, I don't, I, that, those, that reads fairly relatively generically to me. The, the level of detail in it seems kind of generic. I don't, you have some design features, like for example, the, the new entryway that you've put into the new elevation, you know, you have some design features, but overall I don't see the, the same, a compatible level of detail. Um, can, can you go to your landscape drawing again? I just have a suggestion for you. So one thing that you could do to kind of break this up, and I think it would improve your design, is in the elevation that's across the park from the old building, if you just took the first and second floor of the elevation and introduced some kind of a lintel or a cornice or something that a band that basically ties together with the original building and just try to make the brick compatible and introduce some details. That's going to be a much more human scale element in the building. And I think it'll tie together a lot better with the old building. The one issue I see with your design is that you've got a, whatever it is, five story building. with very generic detailing right across this park from a building with a lot of detail, much more human scale type of details. So I think if you did something like that, and that could simply be in the zone here between, it looks like 9-47, 9-A7 down to the corner of the building, and maybe something similar on a portion of the the elevation toward the north. I think that would introduce a really interesting design element that I think is missing in your design. Okay. Appreciate those comments.

Patrick?

No comments from me. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this design and sorry it's taken so long.

Okay. So it's back to me. Can you go to your elevation, Stan?

Let me know which ones. This is north and south.

Yeah, this is fine. So the comments that I have is that the previous iteration had a nice breakdown of colors of the brick. Right now, this is reading before it helped to break down the massing. And now the way that their renderings are coming across in this is that it's actually coming across more massive. The top's still doing what you guys were saying that you were wanting it to do. And I do see what John is saying with like in this south elevation, the... kind of the taupe beige part is you're making that more prominent. And so one of the things is that if that were brought up, that line, to where the top of the cornice is on the courthouse, you start to bring in that proportion. It's a line that's there. I can see where you're trying to with the windows you're pulling that element, but I'd look at the courthouse and the windows are very strong against a darker background. I don't think that you need to, where I disagree is that I don't think that this building needs to become a historic hotel that is pulling language directly from the courthouse. But I do think if you want to play well with each other, those lines of where the windows are or where that top cornice is, those could totally be pulled and there would be a comfort in that. I also agree with John that when you have banding or an awning that's at a lower level that makes that area more human scaled, that could also be brought into your park. so that that becomes a communal space over there, which we need more of that on Rosemary Street. And, you know, when we have games and celebrations, that would encourage people to gather. Now, maybe you don't want that. I don't know. That's for you guys to determine, not me. But I don't feel like this is in any way needs to hold you guys back. I would just like you to take these comments and fold them in as you continue to develop the elevations and the plans. I love that you're reducing the parking. We need more places to stay. So I feel you're headed in the right direction. I just think some fine tuning would be great.

Thank you.

Can I get a motion of, do we, I feel like from the comments that none of us feel like this is something that has like any dire issues. I think that we could totally make a motion to approve with them fine tuning. their elevations, looking at massing. And that's pretty, like if they can pull some details from the courthouse, that that would be a great addition.

Let me attempt to make that motion then. I make the motion that we approve this project. and ask the owners and developers and architects for their continued consideration of the comments that have been made here this evening, which I feel they will do because they're local and they've shown a tremendous commitment to the community already.

Second.

Awesome.

Can each person go down the line, and if you approve, say you approve. If you abstain, say you abstain. If you don't like it, say no. Okay. Annie? I approve. Jim?

I approve.

John?

Approve.

Patrick?

Approve.

And I approve. So, unanimous. We approve. Motion carries. Let's move on.

Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your meeting, and thank you all for serving on the CDC.

Yes, thank you.

All right. See you next time.

Bye. Bye. Have a good night.

Yep.

Okay. That's all the business that we have, folks. All right.

Cheers, all. Nice discussion. Sounds good.

So it looks like our next meeting is June 23rd?

I believe. Okay.

All right. I might be doing that remotely from Connecticut. We've got some family stuff going on up there. All good. All good. Just it's that time of year.

Is it planting time? That's where your farm is, right?

We do have a farm, and we're looking at trees, apple trees and such. Okay.

Just protect them from the deer. Protect them from the deer. My only advice. Having planted a field of apple trees before on a farm, you got to look out for the deer.

We're trying to replace ones that we've lost in the last two windstorms up there. So we're not going to be planting them right now, but we are trying to make sure that we're prepared for them for next spring is what's going to happen.

This is a orchard type of farm?

Yeah. I have a farm in Connecticut that's been in our family for 300 years. And so this summer, July, we are going to open up the farm to the public to tell stories of what happened. So it has been running since 1735. The town was established in 1726. So there's a lot of history there.

All right, y'all. We'll see you in June. I've got a screaming baby in the background, so I'm going to go attend to that.

No worries. This meeting is adjourned, and we will see you everyone in June. Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.