Board and Commission - Regular Meeting

No. It's 532, and I'm Heather Washburn, and we're gonna start off with our roll call. I'm just gonna go down the line. If you're here, please yell out so that we can see you or raise your hand, but I would prefer you to use your voice on this one. Kimberly Andrews, John Biggs, Kelsey Brinkley?

Here.

Jim Farrin?

Present.

Annie Uhman? Here. Patrick Brennan?

Here.

And as I stated, I'm Heather Washburn, and I'm your chair. Did everybody get a chance to take a look at the agenda today?

Yes.

And I'm gonna see if I can choose this view so I can see gallery. There we go. That's much easier. And does anybody have any questions, or can I get a motion for approval of the agenda?

I'll make a motion to approve the agenda.

I second that.

Great. Alright. Can I'll use your hands up for those that agree approve. Alright. All approved.

Motion carries. I have an announcement, but does anybody else have an announcement? Nope. So it's come to acknowledge to me that my term is gonna be ending in June June 30. And after a lot of soul searching and looking at what I have on my books coming forward, I have made the hard decision that I'm not gonna be renewing.

I'm gonna roll off at the end of June. I I feel that my practice needs me, and I've got other things that are going on that I need to shift my time into other places. And so we'll pick this up. I think you saw all on the agenda that that's gonna be part of our new business that we're gonna be speaking to, but I wanted to let you guys know that and how much I have enjoyed being on the commission. And I felt like I have had a chance to do a lot of things, and I need now I need to do more things and and explore other opportunities.

Heather, as your as your vice chair, I just want to take a moment to say thank you so much for your amazing service to the town of Chapel Hill. I have benefited from your expertise and your knowledge and and how you have led this commission, and we're we're lucky

to

have been associated with you. So thank you for for for for this. Whoever takes over for you will have massive shoes to fill. So thank you.

I appreciate it. Annie, your hand is up, but I'm not

sure that that's for me. I think that might just be from the previous vote. But do you

There Anna, it's actually not from the previous vote.

Okay. Well, please go ahead.

I do not mean to steal your thunder, but if you are sharing that announcement, then I will also share that when I took on this role, I was filling an existing vacancy, and that term ends in June as well. I would have loved to continue with this, but, unfortunately, I am moving out of state in September, so I will not be continuing. Likewise, it's been an honor to be here even if it's only been for a few months. I've learned a lot. It's been really exciting for me personally and professionally. So thank you all for letting me share the stage with you.

Yeah. And thank you, Annie. Thank you so much for your time. And, Jim, you were trying to say something?

Yes. No. I I would echo Patrick's sentiment. And my question too also is, although you're going off the board, you have amount, excellent amount of expertise. Would you be available say, if I had a question on something Mhmm. Would I contact you?

Absolutely. Yeah. I'll be available by email. You guys should have that email. I'm happy to do that. Yeah.

Thank you. Shall

we move on and find out? Do we have any petitions that we need to address?

No. Heather, I just wanna note that Kim Andrews has joined. So for the roll call yeah. I know that she's present.

I don't I don't know why it has my name as Annie. I guess, Annie, I've morphed into you on this Zoom link for whatever reason. So, yeah, I'm here. I'm sorry I'm late.

Apple ganger.

Yeah. That's right.

People are always saying we look smaller.

That's right. Thank you for turning on your camera. Yeah. Good to have faces. Yeah. Okay. Thanks so much. Alright. So we move on to the consent agenda. Did anybody have any questions on this?

Take that as a no. Can I get a motion to approve straightforward? Yeah. Can I get a motion to approve the consent agenda?

I'll make that I make a motion to approve the consent agenda.

Can I get a second?

I second that.

Was that Annie or Jim?

I'll defer to, the doppelganger.

Okay. Alright. Okay. For those of you that approve, please raise your hand. Alright. Across the board. So motion carries. Alright. We can move on to new business, and we're starting with July, the paces. Do we have a presentation that's gonna happen?

Yes.

Okay.

Brian or Sean I believe Sean's gonna give the presentation. So

Okay.

Pull that up. Just a, quick intro, though. I'm Brian Boyles with Landmark Properties. We're here tonight to present our design on a multifamily development project located at 701 Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard. Just as a quick background on Landmark, we are one of the largest residential developers in the Southeast based out of Athens, Georgia and Atlanta, Georgia.

This will be our first project in Chapel Hill, but we have built several projects on both Raleigh and Charlotte. And our conditional zoning was approved by town council last October. So now we are, you know, working through, the rest of the prod, process here. So to that note, I'll turn it over to Sean to give a presentation of of our design here.

Yeah. Thanks, Brian. Thank you for having us and letting us kinda talk about our project here. Yeah. As as Brian said, we have gone through kind of several stages of the design process here.

We've met with Brian Peterson a couple times, and we've gotten, great reviews and and great feedback from him. That was all very positive. So as you can see here, we're at the corner of East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Boulevard, kind of a, as you can see, oddly shaped site. But you'll see here in a minute that I think we're doing the best we can with what what we've been given here. So moving right into the design, we have, five levels over two, a podium project.

We've we've worked hard to create a streetscape that is approachable, that does the best it can with the grading of the site. You end up with, brick and and masonry and metal panel along the streetscape. And then up above, you have kind of this offset condition that that helps to differentiate the streetscape from the upper portions of the building. It helps to break down the massing so that, you know, we're not trying to build a wall here. We're just trying to create a building that hits the yield that we want to hit and while providing an interesting building that engages kind of the the community and helps to create a walkable open area for pedestrians.

We have employ we're kind of playing off of the topography that which there is a significant amount here, with this sort of mountain skate parapet condition. That in particular, I think Brian Peterson gave us good feedback on, using these kind of vertical channels along the facades to help differentiate, kind of add a rhythm to the facade as you go. We group windows together to help kind of establish a verticality to it, and then we bookmark the or not bookmark. Sorry. Bookend the the massing with these raised areas of brick.

So moving into kind of a an aerial view here, you see this oddly oddly shaped building, but, you have a fire access lane that helps to divide the site up, and then now you can start to see how the the land planning is is really working with the the streetscape to establish an open, corner to just, again, to try to make the building feel integrated into the site. You can see some of these views start to zoom in on that condition. We intentionally pulled the building back at that point to help to establish a a distinctive entryway into the site and into the building. We end up with you know, you see plenty of space for seating and for planters, for foliage, and for places for people to gather and and move through the site organically. We have what we're looking at here is the leasing entry, and then over to the right, you'll see, we have a a spot for retail with plenty of opportunity for seating, for tables, things of that sort.

And then that's just another view of the same thing. And then getting more specific into the actual facade design, you see a a general palette of materiality. So like I said, you end up with masonry along the bottom and storefront metal panel and then fiber cement siding up above using these the interesting parapet profiles to differentiate the building from other projects that might be nearby, and kind of help to create, an identity for this particular building. It's a you know, for lack of a better term, it's a very four sided building. We definitely we designed it all the way around to be attractive not just for the street, not just for MLK or Longview, but also for the residents that live that might live behind it.

And then there's some courtyard elevations. So there's our street section. So we're we're staying 15 feet off the property line. There's some retaining conditions there. You can see the parking here. You have levels, and you come in off of long view. Yeah. I think that's that's it. Unless Brian or Brian wants to add anything, we can get into the site lighting.

No. Just as a as a heads up, you know, that that corner element there, that is going to be a public plaza area that we are going to provide the town with an access agreement, you know, permanent access agreement there. So, you know, that is going to be incorporating or sort of complementing that bus rapid transit stop that will be located along across the street from from this property on East Longview Street. And then, also, there is a 10 foot wide multiuse path along East Longview Street that will also be in court or excuse me, along Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard. As you can see, there'll be people walking on that.

So those are also, you know, public elements that we've introduced here to, you know, really, really create a sense of community here. So just thought I'd add that. And, good job, Sean, and, turn it back to you.

Yeah. I'll I'll talk about the lighting if you like.

Yes.

So I'm Wendy Ramsden. I'm a landscape architect with Thomas and Hutton. I've been working with the larger team on this for, over a year, I guess, at this point. So we you know, there's not a lot of site area, and there's not a lot of and there's no parking, so that is kind of nice. We've what we've done here is we've got a variety of lights placed on the site.

Some of them are post lights on 15 foot poles. They're sort of closer to the to the building. There are also some lighted bollards, which are 11 foot tall and four foot tall. We've tried to do a variety of these lights so that we don't have a lot of, you know, huge changes in the amount of lighting from place to place on the plaza, but so that it's sort of a more even light and and so that the whole thing is well lit. There will be wall mounted lights on the building as well on the building facades.

And I did wanna let you know we did get approval from council during the CZ to get the lighting levels to the five foot candle level at the right of way lines on both Longview and on Martin Luther King. That public plaza on Martin Luther King is as Sean and Brian talked about is actually across the street from New Bar BRT stop. And so the project Plaza really is intended to feel like a public space, what with the, you know, the multimodal trail going along on the street in front and it being close to the to the BRT stop. Whereas and, you know, having lots of seating and shading and plantings there, lots of sort of activity in the coffee shop. We really are anticipating that that will be a somewhat public place and, you know, even in the early evening when you might need some lighting there.

So we do have a variety of those of those different types of lights to highlight each space. And I did wanna let you know all the lighting is LED, and all are available in that warmer 3,000 Kelvin tone, and that's what we've specified for the project. On the when you when you look around at the at the top and the right side, the plans are actually north is to the right, so it's hard to call it east, west, north, south. But the two areas where we're about 15 feet from the property line, there actually will be some surface lighting on the building. It'll be lower down, but it'll be motion activated, just safety lighting.

And, one of the sides has an emergency egress, so there will be lighting, obviously, on that on that facade also.

Great. Thank you all. We're gonna start with some questions. Commissioner, so how this usually runs is that, the commissioners are gonna ask questions. We'll go one by one.

Then we're gonna ask for public comment, and then we'll come back to the commissioners with our comments, and we can have any discussions. Just for the commissioners, what we're looking at on this project is specifically the building elevations, if there are issues with buffers, alternate buffers, the site lighting fixtures, that is what our lens should be as we review this. And our actions that are gonna be available are that we approve this or we can defer this. But just so that you folks know, no action is actually required by the developer or the applicant, and they are not required to come back to the commission for any modifications. I just want everybody to be clear as to kind of the ground rules as we go into it, but it's our job to be able to give comment on how this affects our Chapel Hill community.

Okay? So let's start with let's start with Kelsey. Kelsey, do you have questions?

Yeah. Yeah. You guys were designing, I guess, the elevation and specifically the setback. Was there consideration to potential high volume pedestrian traffic with, potentially, you know, the movement of the Dean Dome to Chapel Hill North, in the long term?

Yeah. I mean, that's part of that was we work together with the town on. I mean, that's why we've started or that's why we've implemented that multimodal path there along the front. You know, we've given up a lot of space between us and and the road for, you know, public infrastructure there. You're on mute. Oh, sorry. Can

you Yep. No. Thank you so much. That I don't have any other questions. Thank you.

Okay. Can I go on to Jim Farrin?

Yeah. I had a couple maybe a little wider than, you know, Elevation and so forth. Who's your market? Who are you going for? I'm familiar with your organization starting in Athens University of Georgia with a focus on, I believe, student housing. Who are you looking to rent your places here?

Yeah. So, you know, due to fair housing laws, I mean, we can't discriminate who we rent to. This is a multifamily project. It's will be built by you know, it's in our Paces brand. That's our multifamily brand. You can go look at Paces South End. It's a multifamily project we built in Charlotte. We are very clear with, the town that this will be a a multifamily project, but given its location, there we do expect that students will will live here. So, you know, again, this will be marketed to everybody.

And any comments about transportation and, affordable housing relative to the project?

Yeah. We we have agreed. We've offered some affordable housing. There will be a level of of a number of units available for for affordable housing. There's a as far as transportation, you know, we are actually right below the minimum required amount of parking.

We feel like the proximity to downtown will we don't feel like there's going to be a ton of in and out traffic every day and the need for the need for store you know, car storage is not gonna be there like it would maybe a less urban project. There are currently four bus bus routes that stop right in front of of of our project here, and then the the bus rapid transit station will be built just directly across street from us on East Longview. So there's gonna be a a just a number of public transit options here.

Appreciate your comments, Brian. Thank you. Yes.

Okay. Can we go to Annie?

Yes. Thank you so much for the great presentation. This looks like a great property. We really need affordable housing here. My question is primarily about the photometrics. From looking at it, it seems like the vast majority of the lighting is going to be wall mounted. I didn't really find, and maybe I just wasn't looking carefully enough for lighting that is I don't know the term, but, independently standing, not wall mounted. And it seems like the green space and the site plan really emphasizes the walkability of the area. So I was just wondering if you could answer to defend maybe why there isn't so much stand alone lighting around the sidewalk areas.

So the there is if you go, Trishan, if you can go to the plan right before. There's yeah. And maybe zoom in a little bit. Yeah. So the, on the left hand side where there's the little one, there's three three poles there.

That is, pole lighting. That's the stuff that's gonna be about 15 feet high to light up that corner. And then as you get into the site, it's true there is wall mounted lighting, but then right along the plaza there's also four or five places there where we have the tall bollard lighting and then smaller bollard lighting closer to the entry door. So there is gonna be a variety. Now we, you know, we can't go over five foot candles at the at the street.

So at the at the right of way line, and so we are having to keep the lighting inside our inside our site. There are two overhead, like, street mounted poles, duke lighting on the street there, one at the corner and one that is just at the right hand side of, of our property at the service road there. So there is some street lighting along there, and we think that with the sort of the overall wash of ambient light that there will be a good amount of of, lighting on that multi model trail.

Okay. Excellent. Thank you so much. No more questions for me.

Okay. John Biggs.

Thanks. I just I just got here, so I apologize if I missed part of this presentation. My only question was mainly in regard to the the l the materials on the outside of the building. Did you all already cover that?

No. Well, they went over it, but not into detail.

Oh, okay. I I think in looking at this, I think there are some requirements in the zoning as far as a breakdown of breakdown of materials on the outside of the building as far as percentages of materials. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. Sean, do you have have that handy?

I don't know. I don't have this I can't.

This is, yeah,

this is Brian.

Thanks. I guess my my other question my other question was just in the regard to the the light gray material that's about 90 of the elevation there or 80% of the elevation as far as the the solid. There there's also a a certain percentage of glass, so I was just asking about that. But that the gray the light gray material that is the about 80 of the solid portion of the elevation, is that the fiber cement?

Yeah. And to your to your note on zoning requirements, there are transparency, you know, statutes that we and conditions that we agreed to, and we do we will meet them, obviously. I don't have them off offhand, but, you know, we we Okay. The requirements of the the zoning conditions.

Okay.

Yeah. I have the information about the transparency, but I don't see anything about the change of materials. So for the transparency, they've asked us to have 50% of the Main Floor facing MLK to be transparent, and we are at least meeting that. Actually, we're exceeding that. Looks like we're closer to 70. And then facing long view, we need to be at 35% transparency, and we are exceeding that by we're at about 35%. It's it's not much more than that. And then for the upper floors, the transparency is 25%, and we are at 35% in general.

Okay. I guess my the one comment I had about that about the fiber cement, how is that fiber cement done? Is that done as panels, or is that done as, like, a lap a fiber cement lap siding?

So we have a couple different material fiber cement materials across the facade just to help break down the massing. So you can see here wherever you see the horizontal lines, that's the fiber cement siding. And then wherever you see kind of this reveal system, that's the fiber cement panel.

Oh, okay. Alright. Yeah. My only comment about that, it just looks like a lot of fiber cement. I do I do appreciate the fact that that the elevation is not broken up too much, but I'm a little concerned about having the, whatever it is, six stories or so of the fiber cement. But I think in here, have it in different colors. So that that that that looks fine to me. But

John, we

can my only that was my only question.

Okay. We'll get more into comments if you guys can keep it to questions. We'll do comments in the next couple rounds. Okay?

Oh, okay. Thanks. Kim,

do you have questions?

I don't have any questions other than the fact I was just curious as to the lightings. Are they all gonna be consistent? Are they black? I was trying to look at the the information that you provided. So, is the up the stand alone lighting and the ones on the wall, they'll match. They'll all be the same color. And are they a black color?

Same color. I think that they a black or, like, a really dark bronze. I think it was black. Okay.

I was just curious.

That's But,

yes, we are coordinating with the building with the lights on the facade and with the other materials on the building so that it all reads Meshes together.

Yep. That's all I

had. Okay. Patrick?

Yeah. Thanks, Heather. I think Brian and Brian and Wendy, thanks so much for this presentation. Really appreciate it. I think you touched on this a little bit, but if you could just go a little bit deeper. Could you talk about how the sort of building elevation and its surrounding area, and sort of the choice of materials, how you guys made came to some of those decisions regarding the the elevation? And I have one of a follow-up question after that.

We wanted to I mean, having a masonry base was important both to establish kind of

a

hard, but still approachable urban, you know, semi urban pedestrian condition. And then using the change materiality going upward from there helped to establish sort of a base, middle, top condition by using the parapet, you know, forms that we did, and and just to help kind of establish a public and private, you know, realm vertically. And then going left to right, you know, we just we're using the the floor plate, the the actual footprints footprints of of the the of the building, using those kind of more natural shapes or the inside corner help to give us the break from one material and form to another.

Got it. Got it. Okay. And then does the elevation or does that does that have any impact on flood risk? Is there any sort of flood risk associated with the elevation of this building? Is it that you are aware of? No? It's not in the flood zone

or no?

No. I don't I don't believe so. No. It's not like

a peace gate.

And we are mitigating to the hundred year, storm for that.

Okay. Okay. And, Adam, just a quick question for you. What's the height limit in Chapel Hill?

That's a good question, Patrick. I don't know it off the top of my head. I think it varies by district, but, yeah, I can do some digging on that and send it to you. But this this one probably has a specific plan that's more than likely has heights noted in their CZD. And that that that may sound the applicant team has, but but it can vary.

Okay. Look. I look. Just a general comment for me. I I think and and as Heather said, we have no sort of real authority in this conversation. So I say this as a citizen. I I think to the extent developers could sort of use materials that are more in line with the materials that have been traditionally been in Chapel Hill, the, you know, the the the kind of the that also sort of fit within the natural environment, whether it be the red clay brick, or or sort of colors along those lines, I think would be really helpful. As a citizen, I'm sort of concerned that we're just gonna drive down MLK, and it's gonna be monstrous apartment buildings that are look like Russian prison complexes. You know? But I'm just a citizen.

Not Russian prisons. Let's let's refrain from comments. Let's keep to questions, and then we'll give public comment, and then we can come back around to our comments and and summarize. I I have a few questions I'd like to ask. Did you have any other questions, Patrick?

No. That was it. That was it.

Great. So I do you guys have a site plan you can pull up and point where North is? I know that Wendy had brought it up. I just wanna be very clear where North is because your renderings make it

So North is is on this planet, to the right?

To the right. Yeah.

Yeah. To the right.

Yeah.

Okay. So we've got seven floors. Yeah? And did you guys do shadow studies to see if you're gonna be throwing shadows on the buildings of the neighbors that are around you?

Brian, remind me. Do we do we do anything like that?

We not in a I mean, we did, but not enough. We don't have a formal exhibit put together that would demonstrate that.

Okay. I I'm gonna highlight is that it's very important to your neighbors. And then what led you to the mountainscape? What what if Chapel Hill says mountainscape, and how did that get applied to this? How is this Chapel Hill appropriate?

That was more specific to this specific site and the way it sort of nestles into the topography. Going out to visit the site, that was one thing that we noticed is, you know, we're at the base of a hill, a pretty significant hill here. Mhmm. And it just felt like a almost like a natural extension of what was directly around it. And we were looking for opportunities to create a building that wasn't just another box building. Right? We wanted to have a silhouette that was unique but still fit in with its direct surroundings.

Yeah. And, to, you know, elaborate on that a little bit more, you know, Sean hit the nail on the head. Like, we just did we wanted we don't wanna have another box. Right? And that was important for to the town council as well. Like so really helping to breaking up the massing and having different architectural features, specifically along, you know, Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard was was super important to us. And, you know, part of the reason we're able to to really do that was because of the shape of the site, but, you know, really just trying not to just trying to have some architectural features that break up the massing, and we felt, you know, items like that really helped.

Okay. I I'm not getting where in Chapel Hill you are getting these shapes or this size. So any any kinda comment or did did you have precedents that you were using in Chapel Hill to help inform you?

We had So I mean, the the the brick base and the masonry, certainly. I mean, there yeah. You know, I I think we all know that there's plenty of brick buildings around in within Chapel Hill. But, otherwise, we were responding more directly to the site itself and the footprint of of the

site. Okay.

And then how many units is this?

It's not we don't have the exact number yet, but it should be around a 190.

Okay. And what size is the property?

About 1.9 acres, give or take.

Okay. Alright. Okay. I think that's all of my questions. I'll come back with comments later. Thank you. Let's move on to public comment until we have any of the public out there that would like to make comment. Adam, we're gonna have to lean on you on this. I think we had been having some issues.

Yeah. I'm a little weird of any other, so I think we're safe for now. If we have some breakthrough, I'll let you know.

Okay. Great. Alright. So now we're gonna come back to the commissioners, and they're gonna make comments on this. Okay? We're gonna go in reverse order. So, Patrick, you're gonna start. Now comment away.

Yeah. I I don't know. I I just we obviously have no authority in this situation, but I I don't see how this facade or the materials choice fits in with the existing structures in Chapel Hill. And and, you know, I don't know. It's Landmark's fault.

I you know, you guys are probably trying to choose the most economical way to build this building, but I just wish the town council and others might sort of have more rigorous material standards and that we put up buildings that are going to have sort of a lasting quality to them and fit more within the existing townscape. Also, I have concerns about, you know, sort of what this building will do to its neighbors. You know, notably, there's a a little church across the street that, you know, I think to Heather's point, could get kinda overshadowed literally. And yeah. Yeah.

I think I think this is also in an opportunity zone, so I think, you know, it's gonna be a very profitable building. And and if they do end up putting Carolina North there, it's gonna be a very profitable building. And I just wish we made decision materials choices along those lines. So that's my comment.

Alright. Kim?

No. I don't have any comments at this time.

Okay. John?

I guess along the lines of what Patrick was saying, I guess one concern I have is with the the height of the building with I'm not sure what the the height limitation is for the building based on, say, the airport or the any other height limitations there for that zone. I didn't look at that before the meeting here. I otherwise, I I kind of agree with Patrick. I I would not I would not classify this the way that he did, though. But having lived in Eastern Europe before, I would say it it does there is a similarity anyway to housing blocks in other countries, but that's all I'm gonna say.

Annie?

Yeah. I understood the explanation that y'all gave about my my question for for lighting. And I was just looking at the the lumens, and the the wall mounted lighting is significantly significantly not as bright as the bollard lighting. And I just have a little bit of concern about the safety issues with not having as much bothered lighting outside of the main entrance at the corner of Longview in in MLK. If I had any ability to to recommend anything, I would recommend more bothered lighting on the furthest western and eastern points.

Just there's so so many students, and this is going to bring in so many students probably. And, this is on a really high traffic quarter, really high traffic, intersection. So I just think that, this is a situation that could really benefit from more high powered lighting, especially given the dense trees that are gonna be surrounding it.

We can ask our, our electrical engineer to look at how we can, improve the lighting a bit. And when you say the east and west, I I know that this has turned do you mean left and right or up and down? Or We're right.

Do mean left and right. I'm sorry. The furthest left pointy part and the furthest right pointy part Okay. Just seems like there's a lot of opportunity for some additional higher lumen lighting on the furthest right pointy part.

So just so you know, that is not really a pedestrian area. That is emergency access and trash collection back there. And so we we wouldn't expect pedestrians to be going any further than halfway along there. There is a small dog park in the in the center of that facade. But we will take a look at the lighting and see if there's an opportunity to increase it a little bit for pedestrians in that space.

Thank you. I really appreciate that, initiative. And as much as I understand your point about that, I think that reifies my my perspective as well given the very young population that will probably live here. I think it is really important to have a lot of lighting in areas like emergency access, garbage areas that are usually not as that may not attract pedestrians but could pose some safety issues. It's just something I foresee.

Annie, I'm gonna jump in here just a a bit on lighting. So there's been quite a bit of studies that have been done of when you have bright lights. It actually blinds you. And so darker corners, things like that, that's actually where you can have people that are hiding. And so there's been plenty of studies that if you have an even amount of lighting, it allows your eyes to be able to acclimate to that.

When you have harsh lighting, it's much harder, and so, therefore, it's actually more dangerous. So I I think that how they're handling the lighting is actually really good if we want to work out better lighting situations, especially the footpath lighting so that you can see so you don't stumble and trip and that your periphery lighting stays even so that you don't get blinded, and therefore, you can't see if there's somebody that's coming at you. I just wanted to jump in because sometimes there's a misnomer that bright lights mean safer, and that's not always the case.

I've definitely been a victim to that misnomer right now. Thank you. I really want to read that, actually.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I yield my time.

Jim? Yeah. A couple things. I personally am positive toward the project. It's another asset to the community. And height was interesting, the comments about height. Again, given Chapel Hill's somewhat landlocked situation, I would say in the future, that's the way things are gonna go, and that's gonna be higher. And, finally, I was interested in two of the commissioner's comments about exterior. Just to educate me what if you had to do differently, what would you do to the exterior to make it more palatable in your mind? So I was I was just curious.

This is Patrick. John. Oh, yeah. I think

Chip, Jim, happy to have a conversation offline, but I I think out of respect for this process and respect for Brian and Brian and Sean and Wendy's time. But I I think, you know, I think there's a historical context in Chapel Hill for sure that that that, you know, I think is is interesting to people. But happy to talk to you in another forum about that.

I'd I'd hope to. Yeah. I'd I'd educate me on this topic.

Jim, I have comments as well. Once we get to me, I will comment freely. Sure. Did you have any other comments that you'd like?

Okay. Kelsey?

Yep. My only other comment is in the public space. If there's an opportunity I I'm not sure or clear on what the awnings are. Okay. So it looks like there's actually not any real covered, truly covered spaces. As a community member with a dog and a small child, not having covered outdoor like, truly covered outdoor spaces will prevent me from frequenting some of maybe the tenants in the bottom. So I umbrellas only go so far. It really doesn't help with rain. So that would be my only comment is maybe consider I'm sure it has something to do with how much you can stick out into the space. But, for for future projects potentially, or even at least closing that first part, to be a true covering would be my only comment.

But thank you so much for your time, and, you know, look forward to I'm really happy to see that multinodule, you know, in that public space be granted to the, to the public. So thank you for working with the town on that and setting it back a bit to to ensure we can, have a pedestrian corridor.

K. I'm gonna jump in. So I I love that you have this public area that's in their front as you approach off of the corner. I think that's really important as we try to have a transition area from street to building. And I like that you have gotten brick that's incorporated.

I like the plantings. I like the lighting. Things that I think could really use some work is that your height is massive, and it is pretty much a vertical wall, and it reads as a monolithic boulder. And that's where I'm not seeing how that breaks down in scale to be friendlier to pedestrians. It's really more a stadium.

And you start to break that massing down with having the brick or having, like, sight lines. So in your large windows, having the band that dark banding, that starts, but your facades are going vertical very quickly of seven stories that as a pedestrian walking by, that's at minimum 70 feet that they're walking by. And the trees that you've got in there are ornamental trees that are not really gonna help with breaking that scaling so it doesn't feel as massive. And we get a lot of comments from right down the street at the corner of Estes And MLK and how that feels overwhelming, but they have actually got more materials that break down the massing. And I'd also encourage you to look at the South Creek Homes and how they've used materials to break down massing so that the scale isn't so overwhelming.

The covered spaces, I agree with Kelsey that you could actually grow from the banding that you have. That could become an awning that would provide some coverage. There's other areas. Like, at the very top of your buildings, I guess a question I have is, did you look at stepping it back so that you start to stair step back so that the person walking along the street instead of feeling 70 feet or more, that it's at five stories, which isn't so overwhelming. That would also help with shadow so that your your project isn't projecting a shadow on your neighbors.

Did that come up at all? Can Brian or the Brian's or Sean?

So we, I mean, look. We we have a small site. It's challenged, and, you know, doing that would have just been, detrimental to the density we would be able to achieve. So, yeah, this is, this is a this is the height that we worked with from with the city on. So, now to that point, there is, there is a lot of slope on this site. So, when you go back to the neighboring properties, those are actually sitting 30 feet higher. Right? So, you know, they're not looking at an eight story building. They're looking at a five story build. Right?

So we tried to incorporate as much as we could. And as you see, we did we did, drop the building down one story on the front along, along Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard, but, you know, that was really as much as we could give up, you know, to be candid.

I understand. There is a balance that's been with all projects like this. If you we look over on Fordham, we've got large developments that are happening there. They also are breaking down the materials and the colors to help with breaking down the massing. It still comes across as a large wall that is flanking Fordham.

They've worked with the power company to get larger trees because all of their wires went underground. And by having larger trees, that also helps to break down the massing of the building. Now we're not benefiting from that at the moment, but in ten to fifteen to twenty years, that is gonna break down the massing of the building. And it also provides shade and shelter to the pedestrians that are walking along the street.

Yeah. Sorry. To chime in real quick. And, Wendy, correct me if I'm wrong, but the issue that we have along this particular site is that there are a massive amount of utilities that are run under the ground there.

Yes. That I was just getting ready to speak up about that.

So if there's something that we can do We

have bypass pipes and, storm easements and Duke power easements, and we have planted a tree in every tiny space we can find.

And then this is Bridget Ganter. So I've also worked for Landmark, and we've been working with a civil engineer. Additionally, we were working with the town on fire access. So we have to provide, you know, access for their aerial trucks, and that limits the trees, the size of the trees that we can plant along MLK as well as the utility underground conflicts.

I actually don't have any issue with your landscaping. The like, I see where you're putting the plants in. What I have issue with is that it is a huge I think we can all agree. It is a huge building that's very close to two public right of ways where pedestrians are walking underneath. So I'm just trying to throw out ideas of so we've we've talked through.

It's a seven story building. You have a 190 units that you have to keep. That's from you guys. And there's we're not looking at doing a setback back so that the perceived height could be less. That that's been next. So I'm looking so I'm saying, okay. Well, did you look at trees? You can also look at materials and how you place your windows. And right now, all of your windows are reading vertical. That enhances how tall it is.

You've got some banding at the bottom, but that's only on the first two stories. Whereas if you did a material change for your top two stories or you started to gang your windows together so that they start to become ribbons, you also start to break down that. There's many different ways that this can be done. But, right, I'm just trying to give you ideas of how you can do that and the parameters that you've given to us.

Okay. Thank you. And the other, you know, just thing to to point out, I know it's still a tall building, but the the building is not you know, part of the building, you know, runs along the fire lane. So it's not as big of an impact on MLK. There's, you know, a property adjacent to us that's probably going to stay undeveloped, you know, just due to it's the UNC board of trustees and the topography the and the the utilities that are there.

So, I mean, still a tall building and definitely appreciate the suggestions, but it probably won't won't appear, like, Fordham. It's just less of a a length along the street.

Well and then what's the the other corner? Is that light view?

Or

It's long view.

Long view?

Yeah.

So you've got a prominent corner. One last thing is that you could increase your your canopy to come out or have a secondary canopy to help set that line. It doesn't have to go all the way across because I do see that you do have some gardens. But even having a rhythm like that, that also helps to set the scale for the pedestrian that's walking around that corner. And the benefit is is that are you gonna have retail or something on these lower floors?

Yeah. There's there's a small amount of retail on this bottom level right there at the corner.

So that's something that that's a rhythm that you could pick up for those retailers to bring people in. So right now, the way that this is showing is that you're streamlining by. Now you might not have a lot of retail, but I if you're trying to bring people into your space, you want something that says, hey. Welcome. Come in, which you've got going on with your front door.

So it's, like, pick up that language elsewhere in the building to help get the scale more appropriate to the pedestrians that are walking by, in which earlier in your presentation, you're trying to have less cars all for that. So make it friendlier to the pedestrians that are walking around or biking around.

Okay. So

as the highlights and commissioners, feel free to jump in. Things that we've highlighted is the height of the building, and we've given some comments and suggestions on how maybe that massing could be broken down to be more appropriate for pedestrians and for just humans in general. We've also talked about materials and that right now, this is reading very monolithic. We do like that you have incorporated brick. We have highlighted the lighting and the vegetation and that you have created a public space, but we would like to see more covered areas.

Basically, again, being friendlier to embrace the community that's that are your neighbors. And commissioners, have I missed anything on that list, or would you like to add?

No. I'm I'm good.

I think it was a good summation. Thank you, Heather.

Yeah. I think you captured it, Heather. Thank you. Thank you.

Ask here is that we can approve this, or we can defer it and have them come back to us. Now whether they do or not, that's up to them. But do I have any commissioners that would like to make a motion?

I make a motion, mister Farrin, to approve the project.

I second that motion.

Who was that Annie? Yes. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna go down the line since there's a different possible. No. That's the perfect decision. But So guys. You'll either say approved or that you do not approve. Okay? Annie, do you vote? Jim? Approve. Kelsey?

I'm gonna say do not approve. I'd really like to see some changes with the mass as you suggested,

but thank you. John?

Not approve.

Kim?

I'm gonna approve it.

Thanks. Patrick?

Yeah. I'm I'm gonna approve it as well. I just think it was just just with the commentary that I, I don't think we have any real authority in this situation. So just would ask the developers to listen to the comments and happy to be a collaborator in the future. So I vote to approve.

I don't approve. I feel like this needs more time to work through the elevations so that it is more in keeping with Chapel Hill. I think that there there are some real pluses here, but I think it it needs another I'd rather defer, but so not approve. But with four approvals, this the motion carries, and you have approval. All done. Thank you very much.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you for your presentation. Put.

We will list we are listening.

Thank you. Thank you.

We're gonna move on to 11 White Oak Drive. Thank you, everyone, from the Paces for your time.

Thank you.

Okay. Do we have a, presentation for White Oak Drive?

We do. Corinne, do you wanna share your screen?

We do indeed. Yep.

My name is Ben. I work for the developer of the applicant. So I'm living Brian Harris is our lead architect, and he will share the presentation.

Alright. Good evening, everyone. Thanks for having us. Yeah. So, we're my name is Ryan Harris. I'm with Dual Design Studio. We're the architect of record working with Zom Living on this project at 11 North White Oak Drive. This is at the intersection of Old Chapel Hill Road running east west, on the lower end and North White Oak Drive running, north south. This project is a a super exciting project for the area. We, we've got, as you can see, four apartment buildings on the site.

We're really leaning into, a bit about the site. We're really leaning into the greenway, along this portion of the project. There's an ephemeral stream, the kind of the blue line you can see here that's on-site, and we're, incorporating that into this greenway and a a multiuse path that is this green line going along here, that connects down to this other portion of the site and to a dog park. So the buildings kind of lean into the greenway a bit. You can see here this building, kind of presents its longest edge along the greenway.

Building 3, you know, faces due south and kind of fronted as well too and does give some street prominence. So Building 123, And 4 are the apartment buildings. This project has 400 units. We have 384 flats in the four apartment buildings, and we have, 16 multistory units or townhomes. You can see those this six unit building here, this and these two five unit buildings.

There's also a tiny little, outstructure here, that's gonna be where the pet spa will be located that will kinda be a nice addition to this pet park. And this pet park will most likely be the largest one in Chapel Hill. It's pretty massive. So those are some of, the outdoor spaces on that side. You can see here, in addition, sandwiched between Building 1 And 2, we're kind of creating, a giant outdoor room.

We've got kind of, a passive recreational area, on this north end of Building 1, and then we've got a a really more of an active kind of outdoor space with a a pool courtyard, you know, some grilling stations, cabanas. And so this kind of all kind of creates a nice little hub, you know, front kind of porch for the community. Some additional points of connection, you can see from Building 2, there's, a lot of the amenities or 95% of the amenities outside of the Pet Spa are really kind of dialed in and focused in in this building too. There's a nice, opportunity, and we are providing a connection from, the lower level of this building up to the northern, building here, a nice meandering path along the greenway. That then extends into a breezeway that opens into a really kind of lush kind of a wine garden, courtyard space.

Let me pull up some imagery just to kind of show what the landscaping is looking like. I think this is gonna help kind of convey it a bit better. This is how some of the landscaping is turning out. And I'm not the landscape architect. I'm just sharing these images, but I'd hopefully kind of give you a kind of a a bit of a flavor of where it's headed. This is that kind of, courtyard at passive courtyard at Building 1.

Let me just make one note while you do this, Brian. The the the landscape architect has a version of the building that they've used in this model, but it's sort of muted. So I I wouldn't take architectural cues from, from the colors you see in the buildings in the background. Go ahead, Brian.

Yeah. No. That that's a great point, man. I will get to the architecture yet. Please don't pay focus, attention to that until, I get to that portion. But, you know, so we've got the pool courtyard here. This is kind of the view you experience, around that. We've also got, this is kind of the courtyard at Building 3, the kind of the the wine garden experience that we're creating here. This is the let me share some images of the breezeway. This is kind of the connection from that greenway up into Building 3.

So we're extending the lush plantings up into the building and kind of connecting that courtyard and greenway, really, again, leaning leaning into that. Here's another kind of perspective of that. And let me go over to the pet park. The pet park, again, kind of some more visuals for that. You can see how large this thing is. Here's kind of the pet spa, and it really kinda feels like a nice incorporation to part of the greenway. Really kind of nice place making. So I think that hopefully gives you an overview of much of the site. Two other things to point out about the site are we've got these two tabletop decks. So you, off Old Chapel Hill for this deck, you would enter off high.

So it'd be kinda flush with grade. It would not stand above grade. And then, the way the site is working is you come in North White Oak Drive high. You kind of ramp down low, maybe eight to 10 feet, and that allows us to tuck up a a basement level as you can see here. So this is a four stories on grade, five stories down here.

But what that grade, that sloping of the grade does is it then allows you to enter the lower level of the deck here and then come out the lower level to a surface lot. Same setup on the the northern deck here as well. You've entered North High from the street, so very little exposure of the deck as experienced from the street, and then you're gradually sloping down, you know, 10 to 12 feet and entering at the lower level. So the prominence of the deck really isn't experienced until you get, down here. So I think that, hopefully and we got a little small trash enclosure. Don't wanna forget him. But yeah. So that, I think, is the general makeup of of the site. Just kind of some other things just point out real quick. Sorry.

I meant might have missed, missed this, but we do have some stoops along Old Chapel Hill, at these buildings and even the townhomes to help kind of elevate the pedestrian experience along here. There are some additional private yards along these portions of the building that, again, kind of allow the tenants to have direct access to the greenway and help activate those spaces a bit more. Alright. I think I covered all the site stuff. I think I'll move on to the architecture.

So here's a aerial perspective, three-dimensional to give you a better understanding of how everything is laying out. And this is a close-up shot of the architecture. So this is that Building 2 with the amenities, and this would be, North Red Oak Drive going to the left, and this is coming into the the parking lot area. So for for the architecture, we really wanted to lean into essentially two styles. We've got kind of this gable form, you can see here, leaning into the more residential, design architecture that we see.

And we've got masonry, at the at the bottom level to kind of, lean into the regional materials. Up above this material is a fiber cement product called Ceraclat that, has a wood finish and reads like vertical wood siding. And then we've broken up and grouped up the windows with, flat panels of fiber cement siding in between. Here's a material pallet board. So this is that vertical wood siding that you were seeing.

We've also got a a black brick, and then looking at kind of a more neutral fiber cement siding palette of kind of an iron ore, off white and kind of a light gray. This material that you see down here, this kind of Stockholm oak, occurs at the underside of these large overhangs that occur at the second expression of architecture. And I will pull that up here so you can kind of understand how those languages are operating. So this is that Gable form language, that I was mentioning earlier. This is Building 1 as you're looking on North White Oak Drive.

So you've got those that expression. And then along Old Chapel Hill, you've got the other expression, which is the flat roof expression. And in between, we've got this kind of connective transitional language, kind of a lower kind of simpler parapet design. And so but, you know, we were trying to harmonize and blend these these two languages together with this transitional piece. So tying the more flat roof modern design with the more traditional residential aesthetic.

There's also there's a lot of material variation, and change. You can see here, we've introduced a lot of horizontal banding, to help break down the massing of the four story and five story portions. So along Old Chapel Hill, we've got that kind of, we're picking up the vertical wood siding and extending that along the base, and then it's picking back up here as well. Again, giving more motion rhythm to the eye as they're driving along. We've got a horizontal band here in the middle to kinda break up that four story portion of white panel and just some variation in between the windows of siding materials.

Then at the top, we've got another horizontal band to a kind of vertical board and batten. So I think that but, you know, all four buildings are predominantly designed in the same manner. They have these two languages with the connected transition, in the middle. And then the townhomes, kind of tie into that. You can see here, they're a little simpler, but they do have the gable form roof alternating between the flat roof form.

So picking up, the same language from the other buildings, but kind of simplifying it and using the same materials as well. I think that covers it from an architectural perspective. I don't know if there's anything else we wanna cover, but I think I think that's everything that I had to add. Appreciate your guys' time.

Quick question. It might be for Adam. I didn't see anything in the materials that address site lighting, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to be looking at at that now or that something to come down the line.

We do have lighting in

Later in the packet. Yep.

Oh. Yeah.

We do have lighting.

Yeah. Tuck them just a little bit just so that we make sure we cover our bases.

Well, I'm not the landscape architect, but I believe the way this is set up is that we have mostly pole mounted light in. I'll go to the fixture spec. It's similar to the project we were just looking at earlier. Pole mounted. So we have to be dark sky compliant here. So there's no uplighting whatsoever on the site. So it's it's a mixture of, this, kind of, surface, lot lighting and pedestrian scale lighting. So you can see here that's what's occurring outside of these kind of these black dots. Those are those pole mounted lights, and then there's some additional pole mounted lights. There should be some pedestrian winds showing along here.

This might be, slightly outdated, but I do know that there are some along the greenway as well, and there will be some along this path. So that so a lot of the so a lot of the site lighting is pole mounted fixtures. There's a there's a little building mounting lighting, but it's mostly accent building lighting.

Great. Perfect. Those that don't know what dark skies is, can you do just a quick summary of what that is so that we make sure everybody's on the same page?

Are you asking me?

Yeah. You you brought it

Oh, man.

I I can speak to it if you would like to, but I you know, I know you use them. I can't tell.

You're probably more of the expert. I mean, I'm not I'm not a learning expert, but I do know that, like, I yeah. Maybe why don't you speak if you know

you'd probably see more of

it with it.

Well, so the idea behind dark skies is that you can be able to see the stars. And so you try to have as little ambient lighting as possible, like, high level lighting that disrupts your view of the stars. And so by using low level lighting, it's kinda like what I was saying earlier, that allows your eyes to get used to your surroundings. You can actually see more. Chapel Hill prides itself on being able to see the stars.

So as big projects come in, we've been trying to be very cognizant of light pollution. That's that's my And

that's like Yes. That's like stars like Michael Jordan? Or I'm kidding. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. Sorry. Sorry.

Yeah. Nice Nice try, Patrick.

We saw an opportunity here to have a building that was much more, nestled into nature than some of the properties that, you know, you could find in a very short distance from us. We thought that that would be a great benefit. So all of our amenities are are leaning toward and into into those things. The dog park amenity, the the pathway that goes into Building 3 from, from the the stream area, we've really tried to say this is an advantage for our site and for the resident experience. And so you you we don't have pictures of our gym, but our gym is all oriented toward that area.

It's it's sort of, heavy wood look. And so to the greatest extent possible, we've, we wanted it to have a a modern feel, so that's where some of the flat roof came in. But trying to lean into that nature component, which dark sky is a important, component of any anytime we can.

Great. Why don't we get to some questions? Kim, would you like to start us off?

No. I would just like to say that I really appreciate the, details that you guys put into the site design. This seems really well done with a lot of, thoughts, like you said, and how to work it into the existing site and keep it within nature. It it's a really nice, development, and it's refreshing to see this sort of detail put into a design. As you guys are probably aware, we we don't get a lot of that lately. And so, this is I'm very impressed with this. So thank you very much for sharing this with

us. Great

to hear.

John, do you have questions?

I don't I don't really have questions at this time. No. I have comments, but I don't I don't have questions.

I appreciate that, John. Thank you for holding on. Alright. Kelsey?

Yeah. Sorry. My question is, is the Greenway existing? Are you you're working within an existing one? I was I was trying to pull up a Google Maps and

So Greenway anyways. We're using Greenway in a in a lowercase, sense, not a uppercase sense. But, and to to Brian's point, we probably should have had landscape join as well. Brian, do you recall if there is a plan for, the extent so we're we're showing the the stub there on the West, and there's a new sort of Cowan Boulevard there, but I can't recall what plant you know, immediately Sierra West, you'll see there's two retention ponds there. I I suppose there may be a plan to snake through it.

But I I regret that I don't. I can't recall. A year ago, I would have been able to tell you, but I can't recall what the broader plan is. But we've certainly

Is it a town? Would it be a town managed, like, a part of the official greenway system or a light greenway that conveniently connects these two things, which, you know, I'll I'll

I believe it's I believe it's a public easement on a private greenway.

Okay. Great.

Thank you. I believe. I'd Okay. I'm I'll I'll go back and check. But it's certainly something we wanted to build for our own sake. And to the extent that someone else can get use out of it, all the better.

Okay. Great. And then my other question, it it looked like there was quite a bit of, you know, fencing as particularly and I understand, you know, public private space, there's a delineation. But can you talk through, like, the selection of the fencing to kind of cordon off the difference between the, you know, the Greenway area and maybe where you had the the dog park and the the beautiful wine lounge outdoor wine lounge that I won't be able to, partake in unless I move there.

No. You can absolutely partake in it. We can. So on the dog park area, can you flip back to that, Brian?

Yep.

I don't know what slide that is. 40. Yeah. So it's a bit tricky. We you know, we've got this, this really cool hangout, this this building where it's a pet spa, but we thought, well, you're, you know, you're all there needs to be a place to as a recent dog owner, be nice to have the place to sit down and talk.

So we we put that area, Brian, can you flip to yeah. You can sort of see it there. So that was also an area that, seemed like, you know, if people are gonna be sitting here, they're going to have their dogs. And, so this is probably you know, I think you can see there. We're we're trying to ensure that the, the sidewalk remains something that you can, you know, use outside of this park. It does get a little I'd have to pull up the plan to refresh my memory, but we were trying to maximize the size of this area, different areas, different dogs, socializing. But, is is that answering your question, asking

whether you can No. I appreciate the, that the fence is transparent and that there's still visibility between, you know, the the spaces. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like, a fence didn't necessarily prevent egress on that greenway. I just wasn't able to be clear. I wasn't able to see that on the site plan.

And, actually, this is a different path. If you'll flip back to the, Brian, if you'll flip back. So there's sort of two so there's a sidewalk, if you'll see there, where it says Greenway. Greenway is north of it, and the sidewalk is south. So we're sort of and this is an this is an early, an early plan, but this is sort of what we've, carried through that so those are two slightly different two slightly different things.

And then the trees along the stream, that are, like, less defined than this plan, are those the existing vegetation?

It is.

Okay. Great.

Have Thank you. Just a a couple, which we're not gonna, by building two, which, I think just for constructability reasons, but the the overwhelming majority of the trees in that buffer are staying.

Okay. Great. Thank you so much.

Jim?

I was just curious. I I was drawn to the stream coursing through your project. Was that an asset or liability, and how did that impact your, planning, the stream?

Oh, we we started with that, and it sort of it led to the design that you see here. That's not I mean, it worked out really well here. Sometimes it's, you know, in a in a position that's not as accommodating, but, you know, the team did a great job in finding a way to design with it as the centerpiece and not as a not as a nuisance. It's very nice. We we, this path has has been modified just a little bit.

So you zoom in there, Brian. You see number 12. So when we drew this, we weren't quite sure, you know, what path that would take, and we went out there with a surveyor and our horticulturalist and basically said, what would be the nicest way to walk from this exact spot to that spot and plotted that out? So on the site plan, it's tailored to, you know, what's the nicest walk given the existing trees and plants and all that sort of thing. So, it's something that we have let leaned into more and more over the course of the project. This is not the Niall River, I should say. So it's a it's a it's a modest stream, but it's it's nice.

No. That's good. No. You did a nice job, and I think it brings the outdoors to a Absolutely. Project.

Alright. Jim, you good? Annie?

Yeah. I just wanna echo everyone else. This is beautiful. Thank you so much for your presentation. I just have one question on not even about community design. But looking at the first page of the site plan, it seems like White Oak Drive is planned to connect to an unnamed street a. So currently, White Oak Drive doesn't connect to anything. So are you operating under the assumption that maybe in the future that White Oak Drive will connect to a future road? Or So that there yeah.

So what we've got great out here so on the Southwest is Ernie Brown's East Lakeview project. On the East is their Chapel Hill Crossing project, and the Northwest is a project called Meridian Lakeview, which broke ground, I think, two months ago. And so they have that Street A is not public, but there is a, public it's not built to public standard, but there's a public easement over it. And if you go west on Street A and you turn right at that intersection I don't have a I can't annotate. But if you turn right at that intersection, that takes you right out to 15501.

So that is, a way that if you're on 15501, you could turn left basically at the North eastern northwestern corner of this plan you see here, then turn left onto Street A and then come down White Oak. So that street will exist. By the time we break ground here in in a bit, that street will have at least been formed. So it's it's definitely coming.

Wow. That's really interesting. I'm a transportation planner, so that was my initial thought.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a critical connection.

No more questions for me.

Patrick, do you have any questions?

No. No questions. Actually, I do. What what what is the what I'll I'll save my, comments for the comment period. But what is the facade of the parking deck, the parking deck? What is the facade of that?

Well so it's a

And you may have already showed us it. I beg your pardon if you did.

We haven't. If I think, so and, Brian, maybe you could mention this. It At at certain places, there is no facade. It sort of blends into the hill where Okay. You know, the the site basically does this. So from Building 1, Old Chapel Hill is the high point, and it slopes down toward the the stream, and then it goes up from there. And so at different points, there is no facade. It's almost flushed. In the Okay. In the places where it's not flushed, we're doing a a heavy landscaping barrier.

And I think, Brian, we're still sort of talking about maybe a a light treatment or a a paint color that will, help us deemphasize it. But at certain points, there is no facade, and the other points, it's heavily landscaped.

Okay. Well, again, I'll save my comments for the conqueror, but a beautiful job on this. Thank you for the Thank you.

I think that my commissioners have a great question. I actually think So we'll go to public comment. Did we lose Adam? Ricky, can you see anything on your end? Okay.

If there's public out there and you would like to comment or ask questions, if you can put it in the chat, that would be great. It sounds Adam's texting. We're safe. Let's roll into comments and Patrick Valentin.

Sorry. Was that for me?

It was for Patrick, but, Kelsey, you can go ahead.

Can you guys hear me?

Yes. We can now, Patrick. Go for it.

Oh, I was just saying beautiful project. Thank you so much for the way you thoughtfully designed this and love the green spaces love the dog spa. Don't know the permissibility of bringing my dog over there, but it's, you know, some a place I'd wanna live. It's a nice job.

Thank you.

Kelsey, you wanna go?

Yeah. Comments just echo what other folks said. I think it's a really nice job. So thank you for bringing it, and thank you for maintaining the vegetation and really considering Canopy throughout this project as well as scale. So thank you so much.

Great. And Hey.

Heather, can I make one more comment? Sorry.

I gotta go. Can I make one?

We've been big on public art, and so this this project's already a home home run. It'd be a grand slam if you guys would consider some public art, but that's obviously to your discretion. But but just public art would be a a

I agree. Yeah. We should get that on the agenda, Brian. I agree. That would be the exclamation point.

Annie, do you have comment?

Yeah. I just like to echo Patrick. I completely agree, and I love the the stream in Greenway or stream light Greenway light. I think it's a it's a great way to achieve the goals of this commission.

Wonderful. Jim?

No. No. I don't have much more to add. You did a nice job. The exterior tried to mitigate height. That was a big part of our discussion on the last project and another asset to the community of Chapel

Hill. John?

I'm gonna I I just have one one comment. I I really appreciate the the way the the massing of the building and the elevations and the, yeah, just especially the massing of the building, how you brought the gables into it, and then you have some areas next to the gables that drop down slightly. There's a lot of nice detail with the architecture itself sorta has some ins and outs and reveals and stuff. So I I appreciate the massing. But I'm I'm just gonna make one comment, which is usually Patrick's comment.

So I'm just gonna say and I'm asking this is kind of a question just for my own education because I'm not familiar with this in North Carolina too much. But so you have this black brick. And so, what I'm familiar with in North Carolina, and it's specifically in this area, and it's all has to do with the iron rich clay that is here. This area is famous for red brick. So, I mean, that's just that's actually part of the soil here.

So but I'm not sure. You know, maybe there's a historic precedent for black brick. I'm not sure. I know that, you know, that's popular in urban areas now, and it's not, you know, if you just burn the brick more, you get black brick. But, I was just curious about that black brick. And my my main comment would be, I'd rather see it be red brick. And I know that that may be, some people may think that's boring or it's just too similar to everything else, yada yada, but that's actually the regional color. So I would rather see red brick.

Ben, John calls me Patrick Red Brick Brennan.

Is my nickname. Red brick coming I've heard tonight.

Yeah. Yeah.

I love red brick. And I I I hear you. We when we started designing the project, we we were coming off designing a project in Cary, and I said, this is not Cary, and I want to sort of understand what's what's in the water here. And and and I think it was more the the nature setting than the Chapel Hill setting maybe that sort of won the day. And so we ended up sort of with some Scandinavian precedents that we were looking at, and I think that's probably where the where the black brick came in.

I hear you on the red brick. I love, red brick as well. It's it's each side is its context. We have a building that we finished in Durham recently. It's actually mostly white brick, and that's because it was facing north. And we said, this thing is not gonna have a lot of direct sunlight, so we don't want it to go dark. We want it to we wanna brighten it up as much as we can, so we want the white brick. And so I, I hear you, though. I I love I love red brick. I I don't know if I have the perfect answer for that.

I I think it was mostly, the precedents that the design team had, and this specific setting is is what tipped us in the direction of the darker brick, which I suspect is also gonna be local, just given the cost of shipping bricks. But

I'm sure that Triangle Brick makes oh, there's I think there's actually two brick companies in this area. I'm sure Triangle Brick makes a black brick. And I know that that's very trendy now, especially for commercial projects. Right. But that that's just my comment.

We have another we have another Chapel Hill project where, I'm gonna try to take this red brick comment to heart and bring something back that's that's, that Then the loop on that comment.

If you did, you'd be our hero. That would, like, you just speak you're speaking our language, man. Those those

those are goals. Those are things to strive for, Patrick.

Yeah.

Kim, do you have comment?

No. Just what I said earlier. I just think this really well thought out and project, and it's refreshing to see. So thank you.

Yeah. Ditto. Ditto.

So I will my comments are first of all, I really appreciate your use of language. I can see, like, through the roofs, how you have taken the vernacular of our area and that that is reflected in your buildings. And you just have done a great job with breaking down the massing of these buildings. We can look at your Building 3 that is kind of in line with what the first project was, but you've really taken to heart how to break that down so it doesn't feel massive. Your use of material materials is beautiful.

And and it really highlights how you can use scale so that it brings a human communication connection together with nature. I love that you are leaning into that, and that was part of what was the catalyst for your design, and it shows in all of your buildings and how the landscaping is coming together. And it really shows how much thought and that you were just very considerate of all the different aspects that I mean, this has a lot of moving parts. Yeah. And it really shows how with you've got a very defined framework that each building is relating back to, and therefore, the whole development development holds as a community and fits within our community.

It's just wonderful. On the brick comment, I would say, triangle bricks, our local brick folks, there are bricks that aren't black but are on the darker shade. So if you're looking to pull, like, from the bark or the trees

Right.

That also would probably be less trendy and yet give a little bit of a nod to that red brick and make a couple of these people in the commission really happy.

Right.

But your use of colors, it's it's very purposeful, and and I think that goes a long way. I think we're ready to ask for a motion. I'd like to motion for approval. I second that.

To approve.

Aye. Okay.

Yeah. Everybody, go down the list real quick. Patrick?

Aye.

Annie?

I approve.

Jim? Yes. Kelsey? Approve. John?

Approve.

Kim? Aye. And I approve as well. Thank you so much for bringing such a beautiful project to us.

Oh, we appreciate the feedback, and, look forward to bringing a a red brick dream next time for our next project. Thanks so much, guys.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you so much.

Bye. Bye Okay.

I feel like a new business item, vacant seats. Adam, I I need you to run us through this one.

Yeah. Sure. So we've got two applicants that are that we provided applications for. Those are the ones that just come in through our normal course of intake. We need to get recommendations to counsel, like, ASAP.

So we're obviously, with the announcements tonight, we're gonna have two commissioners who are rolling off at the end of June. That will leave us five, which is enough for quorum. So if the two applicants that are presented tonight do not check boxes for the for for our current commissioners, and you don't want to recommend anybody, you certainly don't have to. But if you want to, we wanted to make sure to get those into council as quickly as we could so that we could get them processed. And when we have our the two commit when we have the two commissioners who spoke earlier tonight roll off at the end of June, in August, we'll be ready to sort of hit the ground running.

It won't have to go through that council process. So the recommendation will come from the CDC to council, and then they'll they'll take that recommendation and determine how they feel about those two applicants as well. So you've got two in front of you tonight. We're asking you to just if you have discussion about them, that's fine. If you feel good about them and you wanna just say we motion to approve both of them, that's fine. If you wanna motion to now, that's fine. Cleaving your

Heather, my here's my opinion on this. I think anybody who raises their hand to serve, we should we should motion to approve. I think to me, it's an easy discussion. Yeah.

Well, my question is is that have we been given these, applications? Because I haven't seen anything come across.

There was, information in bios on all the peep both people.

Okay. Somehow, I did

I don't think I I didn't see them.

I didn't get that myself. Those of you that were able to see them, can you guys vouch for them or give the rest of us kind of a quick synopsis? And because I don't feel confident in being able to vote or not vote when I don't know what I'm voting for. That doesn't doesn't seem like a smart thing to do. And, Adam, if you are able to resend quickly, that's an option as well because I I hear you.

Yeah. I think Annie also provided a link. If you click on that link, and then that'll take you to, like, a town page, and you'll see CDC applications in blue on the left. If you click on that, that will take you to the PDF. Sorry for the background noise, but that'll take you to that PDF.

Adam, is there not a way for you to pull up that PDF and just share it do a share screen with with us on the applicant's

Wait. Sorry.

Yeah. I'm sorry.

Hold on, buddy. Hold on. Hold tight.

Go ahead.

Yes. Hold on one second. I can do that. Just give me

a second.

Thank Thank you. You. Uh-huh. Thank you.

Thanks for working with us. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. I I don't think I'm the one who needs I think I'm the one who needs to be thankful here, so just hang tight. Applications.

Okay.

Are you seeing my screen by chance?

Not yet. No.

I'm sorry. There we go.

We're seeing it now.

Yeah. I'm ready. It'll smell young.

Yes. Okay.

So we have Kelly Mills.

Yes. We have I can maybe do a high level here, and I'm I'm That

would be great.

Yeah. Sorry.

Great, Adam.

Kelly, and then each of these applications, most of you are probably familiar. Like, it sort of asked about your history, what information you have, and and how you sort of feel like you will fit within the commission. I don't think either of these applicants have what I would classify as direct experience in the in like, a design field. And well, actually, says that here at the bottom for this one. Maybe it's best if I just leave I'll leave this up on the page for, like, fifteen seconds, maybe let you skim as opposed to me doing the reading.

You can pick out the pieces that jump out to you, and then we'll move to the next person's name, and then we'll go to their page that show that talks about their interest. So maybe I'll just be quiet for a second.

Hey, Adam. Let me just quick question. Do we have any other applicants?

We only have two.

And if these two aren't nominated, we don't have quorum, right, with the two people No.

You no. We have four. Quorum is four. So if nobody is recommended or council doesn't accept your recommendation, you will still have five starting in August, and that still makes form.

Okay. Okay.

What's the second candidate?

So this is Rachel's second one. I will just if I can get my screen to work, I will scroll down to her sort of.

Yeah.

Scroll down to her bio page, which doesn't look like there was a lot included there. You can see, like, what she wrote at the bottom that talks about relevant qualifications or application store of desires. So that's what we've got for her. Let me just skip and make sure I'm not missing, but that's it.

I would just move that we I'd make a motion to, you know, accept both of these applicants and propose and and endorse them to to town council.

I not so fast. Can we talk about these real quick? So we've got Kelly Mills who has a background in nonprofits as residents, does not have design background but is interested in being on the commission. And then we have Rachel who is a primary care physician and hears concerns and what affects their health and loves the outdoors and loves Chapel Hill and finds that it's one of the most beautiful towns we have lived in. I guess my question, Adam, is what is the likelihood of other candidates coming forward?

For me to put a percentage on that, I would say relatively low. We haven't had a ton of applicants over the last three or four years, at least not in a sort of flooded format. So if you ask me to bet, I would say relatively low.

Okay. So we have two candidates in front of us that would like to do their civic duty. It's unlikely that we're gonna have a flood of people coming in. And I'm actually gonna recuse myself from voting in this, being that I'm one of the ones that's rolling off. But I would like to hear from the commissioners how they feel. Like, do they wanna fill these two spots? Annie, please go ahead.

I will also be recusing myself for the same reasons, Heather. But I do have some thoughts because I did read through these. And I overall agree with if anybody wants to do their civic duty and they are able, then I think that they should. My only concern is that, very apparently, of all the people who are presently on this board, I have the least amount of experience, but I would still identify as being in this field and being, fluent enough to be able to participate. And I still struggle a lot.

It's a huge growth ex there's a big gap. This is a very technical commission in my opinion. And that's some coming from somebody who works adjacently to this, looks at site plans relatively often. And so my one anxiety is I'm looking at people who seem like they have even less, experience and knowledge than I do. And more out of concern for them is I just worry that yeah. I just worry that it might be almost too much of an experience to maybe contribute effectively is my only qualm.

Does anybody else have comment or would like to

My comment my comment is kind of like I said earlier. I think if anybody's willing to raise their hand and serve, that we should very sympathetically take that application. And, I look forward to supporting both these, applicants.

Great.

What is the is there a certain period when people have to apply or there there's a limitation? Or

We we put out sort of regular emails of interest for lack of a better term, social media, email blast, Teletalk, those types of things. I think we do do a push every year at some point in time, though I can't tell you exactly when that is. So for me, it feels like more of a just a consistent, a consistent effort across the board. And then those are just fed to me. I don't know, like, actually how or when these came in. Those are given to us by our admin staff.

Yeah.

And then those go to y'all. And then when you send me the recommendation, I send it back to that person who then sends it to counsel. So a little bit of a runaround, but, yeah, sort of consistent effort across the

I guess second question is, who are the people that need to vote on this?

All of us can vote again. But Annie, we need to have at least four. We have four if Annie and I recuse ourselves from it. We have five members right now that are that would be voting.

Okay. Are are you and Annie leaving? Or

Yes.

I thought Annie just came with me. You

you missed the beginning announcements. So my tenure is coming to a close June 30, and I'm gonna be rolling off. And Annie is moving out of state, and so she is also rolling off. So we have two seats on the commission that if we would like to fill, we can. We've got two candidates that are in front of us.

And if we would what the next step would be is we can vote on either one or both together to send as a recommendation to the council, or we can say, we don't want either one of these and send that recommendation to the council.

Well, I guess my only concern just expanding on what you guys have already said. My only concern is that this this particular commission involves requires the ability to look at drawings. Mhmm. And understand drawings and have some kind of understanding at least about the tech some technic technical issues. So that would be my only concern is having people that don't really have any background in looking at that stuff.

But what you've what you've already what what you've already said. But on the other hand, I do appreciate what Patrick said. I mean, if people want to participate, they should be allowed to participate.

Yeah. I guess I would and I I apologize. I'm I'm trying to kinda push the meeting to a close, selfishly. It's my anniversary, so my wife is sitting at the table in there. But

Yeah. I I have to I have to leave in, like, five minutes to

would make a motion that we approve both these candidates and and recommended town council.

Do we have a second?

Okay. I'll second.

Like I have was did not have me chance to make a comment. I think I would go back. I would echo Patrick's comment. Earlier in this session or the years. We were going to have an educational assessment. I think if Adam, you know, it never came to pass, I think if we put some effort into doing a little in service education with the the commission members, that would go a long way in bringing people up to speed according to the design commission requirements. That's my Yeah.

I think that makes a lot of sense, Jim. Jim, apologies for not giving you a chance to to make comments. Apologies about that.

Okay. So right now on the floor, we had a motion by Patrick. It was seconded by John. And now we're gonna, vote for approval for expediency. If you approve, please put your, give us a hands up. I've got three yeas.

I'm sorry. I I'm on the phone here. I can't I can't put my I'm not sure how to put the hand up, but I vote yeah.

Verbal yes?

I yeah. Yes.

That carries. Kelsey had deferred to the majority. So with that, the commission is recommending both of the candidates be taken to the council for approval. And and and with that, I would like to adjourn this meeting.

Second. Alright. Thank you so much. Appreciate your service. Heather, do we do we I guess we'll vote later on the other matter.

Yes. That would so but that is a good segue. For next month, when we come back, we will need to vote on who will be taking over as chair and cochair. So be thinking through that, please.

And, you know, can I just make one comment?

Yeah.

This is this is off the record comment. You know, I think that that first applicant that I saw that had the monumental building, you know, I think they kinda missed a design opportunity. Because I think if they had if they had simply I mean, you all probably will not like this. But if they had taken their entire facade of the whole building and done this really vibrant really vibrant, like, mural on the whole thing, some kind of crazy abstract pattern with all kinds of colors all over it. I think that actually would be a cool looking building.

I think they missed their missed an opportunity. Just make the whole thing gray. It's it's kind of a they really missed an opportunity.

Well, I would encourage you guys that as you move forward, don't hold back on those comments. These developers or anybody that's coming in front of us, the reason why we're here is to be able to give those comments, and we don't know which ones are gonna stick and which ones are they're just gonna let go in one ear and out the other. So I would encourage you, Like, you have thoughts like that, that's what our comment period is for. Just always be respectful. That's it. I also have to go. So I Yeah. I will see you guys next month, and I appreciate you all and all of your time.

Yeah. Thanks, Heather.

Thank you. Thanks,