City Council - Regular Meeting

All right, it's 530. We'll go ahead and call this meeting to order.

we all came from, right?

Thank you. Welcome everybody that's come to participate in the process tonight, and thank you for being here. We'll start with a prayer from Chaplain Paul Erickson from the Aaron County Sheriff's Department, and then I will lead us in the pledge.

Heavenly Father, we are grateful to be able to come here and meet in an open forum with the leaders of our community, and we recognize for our 250th anniversary in a couple of days. So we asked, what other things would be with the leaders of this community that you would give them special insight into the things that the community needs, the community desires, and a balance between them all. Give them special comfort in times that are hard to make the decisions that are best and needed.

Amen. Amen.

Please follow me in the Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thanks. Okay, any changes to the agenda?

Mayor, I see none, so I would move that we approve the agenda order for this work meeting July 1st, 2026.

I have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay, first one under our business. What's the update this week, Councilman Phillips?

Well, Mayor, I appreciate all of your help in our America 250 activities. I'm here to let the citizens know that we are at the halfway point in our 13-day celebration. We have... Six days down, six and a half, almost seven, and seven more to go. We'll end next Wednesday, July the 8th. We had a wonderful program today at 12 noon where we placed a time capsule in our Main Street Park. We had, I didn't count them, but there had to be 50 or 60 items that went in that time capsule. I think it was fairly representative of our community. A couple of keynotes of that. We put some change in there. We put half dollars and quarters and dimes and nickels and pennies because in 2076, 50 years from now, maybe there won't even be coins. Who knows, right? Photographs of our Main Street, some art objects from arts organizations. We had lots of really good stuff. But I do want to remind everybody because I think it's maybe not getting out there as much as it should. We're very blessed with our Fourth of July celebration and our fireworks that are controlled at our airport. are going on and this year we have contracted and have a wonderful support of businesses to have the fireworks Synchronized? Synchronized. That was the word I was looking for. Synchronized with music. So if our citizens will listen to any of the four radio stations in Cedar City, whether that's Star 98.1, KSUB, B92, or Cat Country 94.9, at 10 o'clock, They are synchronized with the fireworks. So turn to your radios and you can listen to great patriotic music while you're watching the fireworks display. And then we have several other events. We have America's Potluck on Sunday. And Monday we're rededicating and ribbon cutting our industrial road trail. Tuesday we have swimming throughout the county at the swimming pools, at the aquatic center, Parowan pool, of course Lake on the Hills and treats for the kids. And then we close it all out Wednesday night, a week from tonight with the symphony. So we gotta have a short meeting next week. But a lot of good things happening there. And then I have one other personal privilege, Mayor. We've had some issues with Cross Hollow Events Center again. And I don't know how we get the word out Ken's back in the corner there. I had several Sunset Canyon neighbors. The lights were on until 3 a.m., I guess Saturday night, Sunday. I guess it was cleaning up the carnival, but we've got to do something about how we control the lights there, whether they go off at midnight or whether, I don't know what we do, but I had several phone calls from Sunset Canyon citizens over the lights. That's all.

Okay. Thank you. Next one there was one I thought he was going to come, but if you remember a little while ago, we did a just serve city proclamation, and there's a couple of things down here that he dropped off this week. I thought he was going to come today to officially present them to council. Would you mind, Tom?

Pass them out?

Yeah, just there's a little plaque thing that they did officially recognizing this as a just-served city, and then he got some.

Oh, they're heavy.

Maybe they're gold pieces.

It's a little coin, I think, inside of what he told me. They are.

It's a coin.

Oh, sweet.

Thank you. America 250.

You're kind of the guy that pushes the ball up here.

No, I kind of think maybe the manner ought to happen. A lot of truth to that.

Who do I give that to?

That's perfect here. Thank you very much, Tom. Thank you. So David just wanted to give us the thank you and official recognition as of being a just serve city. So, and there's some fun stuff with that. I'm meeting actually this next, uh, actually this week on Friday, um, with, uh, Cleve Weaver that, that kind of spearheaded that cleanup along highway 56. And, and going to keep brainstorming some ideas of creating a service volunteer group that the city kind of supports similar, kind of inspired by the VIPS program of the police department, but having a place where people can come and officially join and be a part of something that we help support to facilitate some service opportunities in the city. So good stuff. We live in a great place with great people that want to give back and contribute to our community.

Mayor, I failed to mention something very important that we had a concert last Sunday and Councilman Schmidt was in attendance to that, I appreciate. We had our very own order yesterday in yourself and in Councilman Cox who read for us for Echoes of Freedom and did a great job for us. And then our very own Councilman Gallon is going to be the keynote speaker this Friday evening. for the Cedar Area Interfaith Alliance Program at Sacred Celebration of America 250. So there you go. And Councilman Wilkie is our float hauler and moving. So everybody on this council has been involved. I've got them all involved.

And we just show up when you tell us to show up.

It was only that true.

Yeah. Okay. Then let's jump to our first item on the agenda. Just as a reminder for those that are here with us, in this work meeting, the way we've transitioned to doing our business is we don't have any just public commentary in general on our work meeting, but as we hit an item before we move on to the next item, then I'll allow Anybody who's here to talk about that item to be able to address the council and add to the conversation. The idea is allow council to talk about it first and maybe you hear some things that help either stimulate some different ideas or resolve concerns that you might have had as we talk about it. And then we'll make sure and allow you to give your input before we move on to the next one. And then tonight's not a decision-making meeting. It's just the work meeting discussion. And then next week is the actual vote on items. So just make sure everybody kind of understands the process. And when you do come up and speak, then we limit that to three minutes. So our first one is let's consider removing a speed bump on South Mountain Drive. Go ahead and share your thoughts first.

I would like, so the council should have all seen the memo that I had put together on this. I did just today add one little thing to that. I wanted to point that out to you. One of the things I neglected to mention in the conditions that are different now from when the construction of that speed bump was approved is that we haven't always stopped controlled intersection right there within a couple hundred feet of the speed bump, which is not a good place for a speed bump to be at that close to that intersection. But that was the one addition I had there. I don't know if... If council members have any questions for me on this, you'll notice I did my recommendation from an engineering standpoint is that that speed bump should be removed. The design of it is not appropriate for use on a public street. There are speed hump designs that are industry standard to a degree, industry accepted, that are appropriate ways to control speed that do not require traffic to slow down so much below the speed limit. That's really what differentiates a speed bump from a speed hump. This is not a speed hump, it's a speed bump. not really something we should have on the public street. I've tried to outline in my memo the reasons why I feel that to be the case, that we should not have that on the public street, but that's an issue for your consideration, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Has the city as a general rule kind of gone away from speed bumps and humps, correct? I mean, it's not used hardly like it used to be for traffic. Am I correct in that assumption?

Yeah, I mean, there are some cities that use the speed humps fairly extensively. Those are primarily, though not strictly, in areas that are warm climate without snow. But there's even, regardless of the climate, whether you're snow plowing or not, every city I'm aware of that uses them, there's always a big concern about emergency vehicle response times. And whether if we have something that slows people down or slows emergency vehicles down below what they feel like they need to be traveling to address an emergency that there's some concern about that. And so I know the speed humps have gone out of favor in a lot of cities because of that, but there are plenty of cities that do use them very regularly. Yeah.

Councilman Phillips and then Schmidt.

Well, I respect Mr. Fugle's opinion very much, and I think he is very much probably the expert in this field. That being said, however, I, again, maybe everybody has my phone on speed dial, I don't know, but I heard from a lot of citizens who were not involved in this survey who are neighbors of that area and feel very much like the speed bump is important to them. There was a couple of examples. One lady gave an example of her dog. It was her dog. But there's been several others that have reached out to me. I understand and respect what you're saying. I just don't think it's being an issue. I know that it is more difficult for our street department, but for those seven or eight days a year that we have the snow, last year none, but... I would be in favor of just leaving it as is and studying it. But I would ask the question, and maybe you can help me here, what are the major differences between a speed bump and a speed hump?

Okay, so a speed hump is designed to allow traffic to travel at or near the speed limit. You should not have to, the whole objective of speed humps is to try to keep traffic from going too fast. And generally we define too fast by how fast you can legally drive on that roadway. What's the speed limit, right? So that's really, when you're talking about speed humps, and same thing with speed tables, you're trying to keep that traffic within a range that is at or near what the speed limit is. With a speed bump, you're forcing people to slow down well below what the speed limit is or risk damage to vehicle or losing control of your vehicle when you hit it. What I have seen in my career as I've dealt with this issue at other cities is that when you have devices that artificially slow people down too much, what it generally results in is a lot higher speeds between those devices, because people feel like they need to make up for lost time. And that's a very, very common problem with any of these traffic calming measures, is that if they're too aggressive, then between devices, people tend to go much faster than they would have otherwise. So they're kind of counterproductive. If they're designed, though, where people can travel through at a reasonable speed, that is near the speed limit, you don't see that jackrabbit effect with people's speed. You don't see the really high speeds in between. Would co-drive by the temple be a speed hump?

Or is that just a water channel?

It's kind of an inverted speed tunnel. Yeah, I mean, that is really there for drainage purposes and was designed, the attempt in how that was designed was to not make it any more impactful than it needed to be on the speeds. It does function very much like a speed hump would. It doesn't penalize you if you're going 10, 15 miles an hour. If you're going 30, yeah, you're gonna pay the price for it. Thank you.

Councilman Schmidt.

I'd like to hear from Ryan Public Works about the roads and so forth on this.

Okay.

Ryan Marshall, Public Works Director. I think Canton is right up. He had at the bottom there, he had the justification on the snowplow and the plowing of the roads. That would be our only concern is that it does cause a nuisance for us when we're out there plowing. They have to slow down for that. If they're not aware of it, sometimes they can start to rip that up. They'll have to go maintenance on it. So for us, it would be more convenient if that speed bump was removed and we didn't have that when we were doing our snow plowing system there. And the streets department is willing to, if you decide to go that way, go out and do that, work on that as well. So we could take care of that with our operational budgets, but whatever you guys decide on that.

Any follow-up questions there for Ryan? Okay. Any other discussion questions, council, on this one? Sina, is there anybody that's here to talk specifically to this one? You're welcome to come on up. You can just say your name and you got three minutes. Oh, we know who this is. I told her I was inviting her to my next party after last week.

Better be a good one. The speed bump is doing what it's supposed to do. And it was not put there, I read this, and it was not put there to deter traffic from coming in from Westview. There's no other way unless they go way around and they're going for Walmart or maybe the liquor store. I like to say the liquor store. But there's no way to deter traffic from coming on our street. We need to slow it down. They come out of that hill at a stop and then up that hill, and they are flying past my house. And I think last time we said 400 feet from that speed bump. And CCPD has been out there all week, and if they're still quotas, they probably made it this week because there's a lot of speeders out there. We just want to slow them down. It's a residential neighborhood, and it is only a block and a half between four-way stops. Slow down, but they still don't. They just speed right over it. So we really want that speed bump to stay. And I thought it was a hump. I've always been told it was a hump because it was lower and wider. So have you been out there?

Yes, I have. And I've driven over it many times to get a feel for how that operates. It definitely operates as a speed bump, not a speed hump.

Well, and the signage says 15 miles an hour over the speed bump, and the neighborhood is 25. If you got a high enough truck, you can go over it a little faster than that if you want to, but it's working for us and it keeps people slowed down.

Do you think that, is it okay if I ask you a question? Of course. It won't take you your time if you need to talk more. This is the first day I had the idea of that rabbit effect, is the first time I've kind of heard that concept. Living right there, do you feel like there's any validity to that idea of that people are like, I stopped already, now I have to slow down more and I shouldn't have to, and so now I'm gonna floor it from there to the next stop sign.

But the people who come through there know there's a stop sign in 400 feet.

But that's what I mean.

And there may be some validity to the rabbit.

That's an interesting one for me that I wonder if it does have some validity.

Am I willing to let go of that hump to find out? Uh-uh. Leave it. You know, I can't speak for everyone, but we used to drive by that development because we had a cabin up at Swains, and we had it for like 20 years. And we used to drive past that, and my husband would say, let's buy there. Can't afford it because I always did the budget. And we'd drive by, and he'd say, let's buy there. Finally, when it came time to retire, and we did our research between Prescott and, you know, I'd have done some of the central coast of California if I had a million bucks to start with. But we ended up in Cedar City because it's beautiful. And we ended up in that neighborhood because it's quiet. At least it used to be before they started building 400 houses out there. But it's quiet. It's beautiful. It's close enough. If I need a gallon of milk in the snow, I can go get one. But it's far enough out to be quiet. And we put everything we had into living there. And I'm never putting my crap in a box again. I'm not. And I say that all the time, only not quite as nicely to my husband.

And you did pick the best place. So good job.

So in my opinion, we are in the best place. And at least once a week I see somebody run that four-way stop. And I'm only out from 7 to 8 in the morning.

That's because they had to go to the speed bump. No, they haven't even seen the speed bump yet.

In my opinion, they need to multiply. We need one at the top of the hill and one over on Talon so they slow down. We can't deter them from coming through the neighborhood because there's no bypass road yet. And we could start a GoFundMe thing for building that road if you want.

That's a good idea.

You said you had the money to design it, so go ahead, design it, and we'll just start a GoFundMe for it. That's millions of dollars. I see them all the time.

I think she was ready to write the check if we let her keep the speed hump. I'll make the first deposit.

She has all that money she saved by not buying a house in California.

We made a lot of money selling that house in California. There you go. Yes. Thank you. So no mortgage. Anyway, thank you.

Thank you.

Anybody else? Yep, come on up. Yep. Great.

Before I start my three minutes. Say your name to start. Okay, I'd like to thank the city engineer, Mr. Fugle, for his well-written letter that explains the difference between a bump and a hump, which I didn't know before.

All right, sir, can you state your name?

Oh, I'm sorry. My name is Hugo Ramos, and I'm a resident right next door to the previous speaker. I wanted to, with respect, propose a scenario which is the only way that I can think our current situation developed. And my scenario is this. At some point in the past, we must have had a meeting between the the current mayor and the city planners. And the problem was the mayor must have said to the planners, tell me how I can get the residents of Eagle Ridge to be more engaged in city government to where they would want to attend city council meetings over and over again. And one of the planners must have said, let's take that quiet residential neighborhood that with a 25 mile an hour speed limit, let's develop more houses on one end so that the residents now have heavy commercial traffic coming down a narrow street at all hours of the day, beginning at 7.30 in the morning and going all day long. We did it on 1045 North. We did it on 600 South. By golly, we can do it again. And they all cheered. And it worked. It worked. Then the next planner spoke up and said, hey, I have a better idea. Let's take that scenario and let's not put a single speed limit sign for anyone going from South Mountain all the way to Talon Drive and Scenic Drive. There's not a single speed limit sign that tells them after the 20 mile an hour hill, nothing tells them that within the space of one city block, The speed limit goes from 45 miles an hour to 20 miles an hour for the hill, then 25 again for the four-way stop, then 15 miles an hour for the bump, and that is not marked, by the way, going from that direction, then 25 again. So no one really knows what the speed limit is going from that direction. Going the other direction from Walmart or the liquor store back towards South Mountain Drive, there is one speed limit sign on Talon Drive that says 25 miles an hour. And then nothing else all the way to the bump. And going that direction, it does say bump 15 miles an hour. And it does say hill 20 miles an hour. But that's it. So no one really knows what the speed limit is because of inadequate signage. Then they all cheered again. Then the third planner spoke up and said, hey, I have a better idea. Let's take all the signs on that street and take Eagle Ridge Loop and South Mountain Drive, and let's make the street signs say 2125 South. So all the delivery people will get lost as they try to deliver something to those homes. Let's do that all through Cedar City so that depending on which website you go to, if you want to go to the Shakespearean Festival, two websites say turn on Center Street, but let's make Center Street on the sign really small and put University Avenue real big on there so that people with older people who can't see can get lost.

Your three minutes is the most entertaining I've had for a while, but they are up.

That's the scenario I came up with, but really, I think the problem is inadequate signage. I think the problem is not understanding the difference between a bump and a hump, and I haven't spoken to my neighbors. I hope I don't get my house egged after this, but I am willing to propose a compromise where we take the bump, maybe turn it into a hump, but mark the speed limit so that construction drivers, other drivers, know what speed we should be going. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you.

Kenneth B. Williams, and I'm on Eagle Ridge Drive just around the corner from that speed bump. And I would like to know, do any of the snowplow people know how to read a sign where it says 15 miles an hour and there's a speed bump ahead? Because there is a sign there coming down. I would be more than happy to take that speed bump and make six of them on my street because people are going up and down that street all day long, going at least 50 or 60 miles an hour. Many of us have called. Nothing has happened. There's going to be some children killed because of the speed and what's going on up in that area. It's totally ridiculous. I'd also like to know who wants that speed bump removed because I can guarantee it's probably those construction people because they're going 90 miles an hour. One guy just lost his boat on that speed bump because he was going too fast, not paying any attention. and so I think the speed bump ought to stay there and if you want to put some speed bumps on Eagle Ridge Drive, I could get everybody on that street to sign the okay on that and we would maybe even help pay for it because it's just ridiculous how fast they're going. We've called the police. They're so busy, they don't have enough time to come out and bother with it. I called them on the motorcycles for doing wheelies up and down the street. They did catch them and then did nothing to them, turned them loose. They should have compounded their motorcycles and so forth. These construction workers that are coming in there before 7 o'clock, some of them start at 5.30, 5 o'clock up and down that street. As far as I'm concerned, We keep the speed bump, but one thing that does need to be done is it needs to be painted again from the city. You ought to come out and put some yellow paint on there or something so that you can see it a little bit better. But there is a sign there, and we need to teach our drivers, snowplow people, how to read signs.

Good. My name is DJ Bettish. My property is directly adjacent to the speed hump. 100% from an engineer standpoint, respect what you say, understand Jackrabbit, heard of it before, understand the difference between a speed bump and a speed hump. I understand that that thing might be a little bit narrow to classify as a speed hump, but to echo what this gentleman said, I think the solution is when I moved into that house, it was a dirt UTV trail behind me. There was nothing behind me, and it was fine. As we built behind us, and the city's built behind us, and everybody's built behind us, I think it's absolutely essential. I do agree, like yellow paint, eight inches wide, border, cross hatching, throw a crystal in on it so it bounces off the headlights when people see it, add another sign. The traffic increase that we have seen in the last five years is madness. It's absolutely madness. There are little kids on my neighbors that literally play on the sidewalk constantly. We've already had, before that, when it was still a dirt road behind us, we had a little girl hit in the neighborhood. Before that was even paved. It was still dirt and people were using it. Agree and respect public works. But if you go out and look at that speed hump, that blade, yes, he's got to operate it and go over it. I completely respect his position and what he has to do as an operator. But if you look at that speed hump, the gouges are not from a snowplow. They're from frames that are hitting it too hard. And the undercarriage. And I hear it all night. Boom, boom, boom. But there has not been any maintenance on that speed hump. Literally, it hasn't been painted in seven years that I've been there. And I think it should absolutely stay. It protects the kids in our neighborhood. And I'd really like you guys to consider doing some maintenance on it. Paint it. Like I said, throw crystalline on it so it reflects and And try to keep that thing and just keep everybody in our neighbor. Because if you take that out, it will absolutely the Jackrabbit effect. I agree with 100%. But if you take it out, it'll be a drag strip. They're slowing down and trying to make up time. The other thing is. is nobody can read no freeway access. So everybody leaving Walmart heading south or anywhere, they end up coming down the frontage road in front of that new development, and then they figure out, oh, I can't get to the freeway. Google Maps redirects them through the neighborhood, and they're trying to make up time to get back on the freeway to head back to California. So they haul butt through our neighborhood on that. So it's not just city traffic. And again, looking at future, we're going to have a school back there. I understand there's going to be a lot more But we absolutely have to control the traffic flow and the speed in that neighborhood because it's bad. And I would encourage you guys to, like, come out on a Friday afternoon and just park on the corner. I live right on the corner. Park in my driveway. And just watch how fast these people are driving. It's scary. So thank you for your time.

Thank you. That was, like, time perfect, too. That was impressive. Anybody else? Yeah, come on up.

Hi, Shalon Shaver. Just for historical knowledge, sorry I'm in my uniform because I just came from work. I don't try to wear this to public events. Just historically, we've been out there before there was the the freeway that goes through, basically the freeway that goes through there. And when I moved out there, there was crosswalks around, I'm right there on the corner when you come up. I did get my four-way stop and I'm very grateful for that. I'm very grateful for the police department that has come out in the last week. We've been seeing tons of them. I sent Chief Adams a, text to tell him how grateful I am. But we had crosswalks and four-way stops and all sorts of stuff. We literally are an island out there where it's 45, then we're like, here, slow down, and then 45. So we really do need to keep the hump, bump, whatever it's defined as.

Thank you. Okay, any others? All right. Councilman Wood.

Mayor, I just have one question for Chief, and Chief, you probably weren't expecting this question, so if you don't have any of the information, do you have anything to add to this as far as how it has been out there the last couple of, it sounds like you have a presence there for the last week or so. Have we had a lot of speeders?

Yes. Chief Adams with the Police Department, we have. I went out there with Officer Shumway the day after last week and witnessed the speeds that occur there in both directions, and so him and Officer Wilton have been out there and have written a lot of citations the last several days. As I sat there with him, it was almost every vehicle coming up over there. You go from 45 to 25 to 20 and then to 15 for the hump.

Were they speeding like a jackrabbit or like?

No, I guess you could say. They weren't hopping.

Coming from the direction into Eagle Ridge? Yeah, we drove coming east.

We got cars coming up over the top both directions exceeding the speed limit. Thank you.

Okay, thanks, Chief. Yeah, go ahead. Chief, how much is the ticket for, how's that?

I'll defer to Rand. He'll probably know better than I will.

Your base level speeding ticket is $130.

So I think maybe what we need to do is change that. We can't. We can't change that?

Yeah, we have to convince the judge every time.

That's what we really need to do. Just make it $500 and they'll only go to do it once.

Cut off their gas fund. Yeah, cut off. Yeah, that'll take care of it.

Once you get a couple of those, their insurance rates go up, so that hurts too.

I just was curious. How do you feel about that? Not to put you on the spot here, but how do you feel? I don't know. It's right between two four-way stops. Is it really – and I'm kind of confused – Everybody's talking about how fast it goes, but then the speed hump is there. But then they're still talking about how fast it's going even when it is there. And so I'm just a little bit confused. I think enforcement's a lot better action than that. But what's your thought?

I don't know that I have an opinion. I mean, I do tend to lean toward Mr. Fugle's recommendation. He is the expert as far as an engineering standpoint. And those can create issues if people aren't going over them the right speed. Traffic calming devices in our world is always a good thing if we can slow people down because signs don't always do that.

And how far is it between the two four-way stops?

He's going to let us know.

Oops. Yeah, we don't need metric.

This is America 250. No, that's 150 feet.

That was pretty good.

Yeah, 850.

About 850. 850 feet.

Chief, and you may or may not know the answer to this question, what does it cost to get one of those signs that shows your speed with flashing and blue and red and all that kind of stuff?

So those are right around 5,000.

Okay. I mean, is that something that you think in this area is something we should look at?

Yeah, we talked about that. You approved five of those in our budget, so our intention would be to put one out there as soon as we get one.

I mean, blue and reds usually do the trick.

And in general, this is actually one of the biggest items all over the city that I get emails about is people worrying about speeding. So it's not isolated to just one street. It happens all over the community. That's part of why in our budget we have another traffic officer now to try to get a couple officers that that's all they're focused on. so that hopefully the enforcement piece can help all over the city.

Who do we call when they're speeding up and down our street? What should we do? Throw rocks at them? No.

I wouldn't recommend that. Yeah, you might get a call back at you. Yeah.

So who do we call? Do we just call every time they come flying up and down? I call them and call them and call them and call them.

So I'll chip into that. The answer is I think every time they know they get more calls that recognize that that's an area that needs additional policing. Um, but, but, but we definitely don't want this to be confrontational, right? Like we're, we're here today trying to figure out how to actually, find solutions to help our citizens. That's why we exist. We're not here to try to make your life miserable.

We're trying to here to help and serve.

That's everyone's in this room's goal. So the idea of what I was trying to express there is that the comment of how police officers have been so busy is true. Like we haven't had a lot of traffic enforcement in the city because of the just normal volume of calls. One of the areas we're hoping that we're improving in that area is having dedicated officers that don't take those other calls. Then when we have these areas that are highlighted as places that people are consistently breaking the speed limit, we now are trying to give tools to help that. Because I do think over time, if those same people are driving the road and they get tickets on that road, the behavior starts to curb over time. And so that's an effort we're trying to make to help.

I just have one comment, and that's in regard to the snowplow. I know that they know how to read. The concern isn't whether they know how to read or not. It's the damage that's done to the snowplows when they go over those. it damages the trucks and it's just hard on them. So I just wanted to put that out there publicly.

Mayor, if it's okay with council, I would move that we put this on action agenda for next week.

Second. Have a motion and a second. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed? Thank you. Okay. Next one is a public hearing to consider an ordinance approving a development deferral agreement for a property located approximately 2411 West 580 North Bentley.

Just call it Horse Alley.

Horse Alley.

Thank you, everybody.

Thank you.

So I guess we're just here to decide whether I can approve that deferment contract. I think Randall helped write up. I'm fine with as it's written. If you guys have read it and are okay with that, it's fine with me.

Randall, I'm assuming this is the same type of thing we've done with many other properties on that same road?

Correct. I wish I could say that all the triggers are exactly the same, but they're not. This is the best that we as staff and planning commission could kind of come up with for the triggers for this one to come through. This is absolutely one of those we hope and dream someday that it won't be a third world country down there that will actually finish the road. But until then, this is what the planning commission recommended.

Yeah, Councilman Schmidt.

I think with this situation, that road, I'd hate to see this pieced together because it just doesn't make sense. I think this deferral is excellent. Until we have a full design road, sewer in it and everything, everybody on board with a full plan, there is absolutely no reason to put this piece together. So I'm 100% agree with this deferral.

Okay.

Is that a motion? We have a public hearing first. Oh, this one's a public hearing.

Any other discussion, council? No. Seeing none, I'll open the public hearing. Anybody like to come speak to this one?

Tom might. He's the only other person I know that has. Good evening, Tom Jett. So this has been a standard, and I think you guys mostly know this. This has been a standard for the last 25 years when there's been building on that street. And until we get our state legislature to get rid of the S, bring the SID back, horse alleys never get developed. So we might as well allow people to do what they want with their property. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Anybody else? Seeing none, we'll close the public hearing and entertain a motion.

I'll make a motion that we put this on consent agenda. It's an ordinance. It's got to go in action. Put this on action for next week.

I have a motion.

Second.

Second, all in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Great, thank you.

To that point, Mr. Huey, if we could put it on consent, we probably would. So you don't necessarily need to be here next week, I think. If you'd like to come, feel free.

And Carter's the stickler on that, so if he just gave you permission.

100%, but yeah, that one's pretty clear-cut.

It's pretty entertaining, though.

If you do come, bring food. Yeah.

Okay, number three, consider a resolution approving the allotment of RAP tax funds as recommended by Parks and Recreation Advisory Board. Mr. Chad Westwood.

Chad Westwood, do we sit on that?

Sorry, that's not tall enough for you. There you go.

How come you don't have a button like the... Can we raise it, please? The bishop button.

Yeah, right. No, I first wanted to express my thanks. I've been on this Rat Attack Committee for... I was appointed by Miley Wilson. I've been on this... for many years.

You're doing a good job. That's why you keep getting reappointed.

Well, I should say, can I just say one time, not once have we not seen Mr. Phillips there. You've been to all of our meetings. Appreciate you being there. He shows up every time, and he's not the councilman assigned to the committee. He sits out here and listens. He's really good. Every time we have a meeting, he comes up and shits. Well, thank you. which is amazing. But I first wanted to express my thanks to all the councilmen for their time, their efforts, Mayor for your efforts, and all the city staff and all their efforts. Randall McCune was out there, and he was helping us there, and helped us, and Natasha was there, she was great. Everybody, I appreciate all the time and effort and service and time that you give to your time and services. I would say callings, but that's not the case. But thank you. It was recommended. We had two people apply for the RAP tax committee. And as you can see, the leisure services, it was broken down, as you can see on your agenda items, what they needed it for, for the play structure for the pool, the sound panels inside the aquatic center, the black widow drag for the cross-hull event center, and the electrical upgrade for the new addition that was there as well. And then also has like from the preservation fund, all these different things that we wanted to fund. And then with the rotary, The Rotary is continuing with their plans there at the Canyon Parks. They need some additional funding for as far as to help them with their next phase with that development. They've been working with their city staff. The city staff and the Rotary have been working well. That's a great marriage, in my opinion, of both of them working together to help both achieve their goals. And then the War Memorial restoration is where it's right down here by Veterans Park. They just need some help. uh, repolishing and restating and everything there to help make that look beautiful. So that's what that war memorial restoration is to help those be preserved. So our recommendation was we have the funds to fully fund both of them, leisure services and rotary with all the leftover and the preservation funds. We had enough to pay for everything for that this year. And so it was our recommendation as a committee to hear from these, individuals, leisure services, and rotaries to recommend they be fully funded, and that is our recommendation.

Okay, any questions?

My question would just be simple. The repaving of Cross Hollow Trail, that does fall under preservation as the ordinance of the law states, correct?

It does, yes. We used the same for a different section of the trails last year.

Okay, very good. Councilman Schmidt and then Wilkie.

These funds for Canyon Park, does any of that go for the parking lot on the west side that needs to be fixed? Does that come from a different place?

That project has no budget. These funds are to finish the amenities that would go into the park.

Okay. So I do have one question and I apologize. I am your council representative and I actually had an emergency with the Long story, I was in the hospital that day with somebody.

We set a quorum.

No, I did make sure you had a quorum before I committed to, or before I, yeah. So I apologize for not being there. I just have one question. As far as the rotary portion, because I've kind of heard a couple different things, and I'm sure if I'd been in that meeting, I could have had all my questions answered, but with the $200,000 grant, that's coming in, so somebody along the lines of told me this is almost kinda like we're bridging while we wait for that grant to come in, but maybe that's not the case. Maybe that's a question for the Rotary.

That's mostly correct.

Okay.

Yeah, if all of their grant funding comes through in time, they won't need about 200,000 of that 212. Okay. So the idea being is that it was recommended that you guys provide that 212, but if they were able to get the federal funding before they have to pay Big T, right? Then we wouldn't have to give it to them at all or they would essentially refund it to us. Good.

Then we'd have enough money to fix the parking lot.

So what happens if you'd have the request next year?

You would have some money to fix the parking lot. And if the Rotary doesn't spend that $200,000, the council can reallocate it within the parks framework.

So what happens if we go ahead, if they don't get the grant money in time, we put ours up and then they get the grant money. Then they would pay that back. So they'll be paying us back. So either way, we should be getting back the $200,000 of the $212,000. Assuming the grant comes through. If they get the grant.

Correct. So we want it to proceed forward regardless. We have high hopes that the grant will go through. But understand, you might not get it back. So if the grant doesn't happen, we're kind of, I guess, semi-guaranteeing our funding instead.

OK. That was kind of my question. I thought that was the case, but I just wanted to confirm. But the funding is there. Yeah.

So if that money either doesn't go to them or gets paid back to us, it'll roll forward to next year. Well, that was my question.

How close are they to, because they still have to use last year's wrap tax of the $213,800. And then they have the 182. So is this the final thing they need to be able to finish the play structure and actually put it up?

That is what they, well. Well, that's right. Correct. That's what they say. But at the same point, this could be continual phasing. Yes.

Okay. So this still might not be.

This, I don't know if this will complete it. They didn't say that.

So I took it that they believed it would, along with state and federal grants that they have. Kenny can answer.

He's not with . He's not.

No, but.

He's talking more than we have, though.

Chad's abusive. So Ken, you have some leisure services. Rotary, this will complete the project for West Canyon. The reason that the city's involved in this is because of Big T deals with the city for different reasons rather than Rotary. So as long as that grant comes in, Sue thinks it'll be in before December. We won't need to pay Rotary until then. That's the beauty of working with the city. They don't require us to do deposits and stuff. So the play structure will go in September. They won't require us to pay until the end of the year. So it has a window to get that grant in.

OK. Any other questions?

No.

And I... No other questions? Anybody from public that wanted to ask or talk about this one?

If not, then... Mayor, I would move that we put this on the consent agenda. It's a resolution. We're going to have a long meeting next week. No, we won't. They'll still be fast. Let's put this on action next week. Second.

I have a motion and a second. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

Hey, Chad, if you need to go on another committee, I've got a few ideas, okay? I sense you've got this one down pat, so we'll... You got my number.

Thank you, Chad. Thank you, Chad.

Consider a resolution approving the allotment of RAP tax funds as recommended by the Arts Advisory Board.

She was the best chairman of a committee I've ever participated in.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Joanne Bratton, chair of the arts portion of RAP. I'm going to read the cover letter that I sent to you guys, because I think there's information that the public would like to hear. First off, thank you for considering our recommendations. Special thanks to Waldo for being on our panel. He was new this year. We had four new members. And also to Scott, who, as the other gentleman said, is always there, which is fabulous. This year we had a budget of $427,452 and requests from 23 groups totaling $513,700. We have a few more groups to listen to than the parks group does. Since the ordinance specifies that there can only be one request per each 501c3, just like last year, SUU combined their requests between the Shakespeare Festival SUMA and the Signature Series. However, we evaluate those separately, because we feel like they are very distinct entities, and we request that the communication, as was done last year to SUU, is specific about the final numbers for each group. There were four new groups requesting funds, Festival City Ballet, Pioneer Legacy, they were here in 2024 but not last year, and Signature Series and the Utah Symphony. We're recommending zero dollars for the symphony, not because we don't value it, but because, as Waldo suggested, We had such a small amount we could recommend for them based on the needs of the local groups that we felt like it wouldn't make that much difference for them and it would make a big difference for the local organizations. For the other three, we erred on the conservative side as we always do with new groups until we see a solid track record. Eight of those groups use their RAP funds to pay their rent at the Heritage Center. All groups are seeking funds, alternate funds, from grants, sponsors, and other donations. We've encouraged them to do that. Even the groups that have free admission, we ask them to put out a donation box. These RAP dollars are continuing to foster a robust artistic and cultural environment in our city. Thank you very much. Any questions?

Yeah, Council Member Phillips.

My only question would be, and I don't know if we want to do this, but relative to all the organizations, did they all see some small increase? Yes. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, we made, I think we made sure, I think American Crossroads Theater was the only one we put $1,000 less than last year, but everybody else got a little bit more.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions? Yes.

Did everyone that requested get something? No. No, the Utah Symphony did. Other than that one. Yes, yes.

OK. Yeah. Any other questions?

I would move that we put this on the action agenda for next week. Second.

I have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed?

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Great work. And I will attest to that. I mean, she came and met with me. She's just a phenomenal chair. I'm grateful for your service. OK. Next one is some board appointments. There still will be a few more that roll in. This is the time of year where we have terms that expire on most of our boards. And so these are people that have been serving. And we're just reappointing. They're still willing to. They're doing a good job. And we're just reappointing. So any questions on any of them?

Well, you're replacing one. Brent Drew's being released.

Oh, sorry. You're right. We did get that. So Brent's, that one has a limit of how many terms you can serve. Yeah. And so Brent was an expiration based on his number of terms he's already served. And so Tyler Romrell is going to do that one.

I don't see anything else on this other board that we had talked about where you were going to appoint some different people, some different places. How's that coming?

That's where you're still going to see a few more roll in. Okay, so it's coming. It's coming, yep.

So we understand in these places where we are releasing people, you will bring names back at a later point for appointment? Yes. Okay, thank you.

Okay, Mayor, with that, I move that we put this item on consent. Second.

I have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay, thank you. Number six, consider contract renewal with flock safety. Chief Adams.

Good evening, Darren Adams with the police department. So as you recall, the money for this was approved in the budget. This is just to get the contract alignment taken care of. When we started this last year, they put the first piece of hardware in the ground in February, end of February, and gave us the 90-day PPI or Project Prove-It trial. The person that we dealt with has since left, and so some new people have moved into those different positions with FLOC. And they wanted to go back and charge us from February of this year to July, even though we told them last year our fiscal year is in July. So through some conversations, they were really good to do that, giving us a concession of $65,625, which would have covered February to July of this year. This just gets the contract where it should be from February of this year to July 20th of 2028. It's a two-year contract. It'll auto-renew unless we decide to change that. And then the first payment, which is in the budget, would be due towards the end of July.

Councilman Wilkie and then Phillips.

Is this something that every, it sounds like we're kind of, Is this something we have to approve every year or every two years, or is the idea going forward that once it's in the budget, it's just a reason?

Yeah, so you approved it last year. The only reason we're coming now is because of that hiccup between February and July. Otherwise, it would be here. That's what I figured.

Does that answer my question? Okay. So, I mean, Chief, I'm full in support of the flock. I know that I'll probably take some flack for saying that I'm in support of the flock. There is... I mean, but I think we've had the proof has been in the pudding and we've been able, you've been able to solve crimes that have been directly related to, I mean, success of flock. And so I hope that people can educate themselves on what it really can and can't do and what we do with it. I'm not going to sit here and say that everything that I hear is unfounded, right? I don't know all of its capabilities, but I trust in you and I trust in our police department and I hope we're using it the way that we're supposed to and nothing more. And that's all I'm going to say. So I just, oh, sorry.

Well, to answer even a little bit on that one, like you just did a video that Chief and I have talked about that. Because I've had a lot of, probably all of you have gotten emails, right? There's citizens that are genuinely concerned about the technology. And so I've tried to really dive in and understand it and had a lot of conversations with Chief. And I think some of it's just different cities may use it differently. And I feel very comfortable with the way that our city is using it. And Chief's starting to try to do some more public outreach under explaining what it can and can't do to try to help with some of those concerns. Can I just say one more thing?

Yeah, that just went out. Me and Mary filmed that two days ago. We just released that today with some links for the portal, which you could go onto our website and look at the transparency portal. And it tells people what it can and can't do, how many vehicles have gone through the system. It's very informative. But we do see the criticism. In fact, we've had three damaged in the last 30 days, wires cut or pulled out that we're trying to fix right now. So it's hyped up right now across the country. I just wish people would get educated. And in the video, I leave my number and my email. If people want to contact me, I can answer questions and educate even more.

I had one of the critics just send me a text after seeing your video today that thanked me for it, that it was good.

No, I mean, just as a follow-up on it, You know, I think we would be ignorant to not realize that Big Brother does exist. And so I do get it. It's a real thing, right? And there are scary – there are ways that people can watch us and learn and do things, you know, about us these days that they've never been able to before. And so I'm not trying to downplay what people's thoughts are. No, I agree. It's 100% real. I just don't think this is one of those scenarios we – We looked into this extensively when we first put them in. And so I continue to support it. And I just hope that people can mostly educate themselves. I mean, I've seen the social media posts. And immediately, almost every single reply was still, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's lying. That's not true. They're watching us, all this stuff. And I just hope that people can really learn what these things do and don't do.

Councilman Cox.

So I was going to comment that I appreciated the video that you had done and also appreciate that you're willing. I mean, I mentioned someone in my name for this concern. You said, I'll go talk to him. And so I appreciate that as well. Thank you. But I can respect people who are anti-logging if they don't use toilet paper. So if people don't want to be followed, they need to get rid of their cell phones and everything else that tracks us, right? Yeah. So.

Councilman Schmidt.

I'm still trying to figure out what he just said.

I'm not sure where he was going with that, but anyway.

It's like mercy. We got to get back to that.

Are you on track now? I had an opportunity to visit with a district judge the other day, and I don't think people realize, and I'm sure you can agree, the amount of challenges, problems that are here. And we had a very good conversation. And see, we want people to think Cedar City is a great place. We want people to think it's very good. But there's a lot of junk that goes on here that probably 90% of the public has no idea. And so I'm 100% for these. If it can help on reduce crime, catch crime, but people just, there's always gonna be those that are conspiracy people, I can't help that, but I appreciate your efforts, because I knew you'd take heat for these, for doing this, but this is something that needs to be done, and if you ever go to London, there's a camera on every corner.

Every corner.

Every corner. And other towns, it's the same way. Cedar's just kind of catching up, but if we can catch one person, then it was worth it. And so I just want to say thank you for bringing this technology. It's the same with drones. Thank you for drones. I visited when we had the SU Southwest Tech, when they did the opening for the first responders, I talked to the drone people there. I just appreciate the technology is here. We need to use it. And I just want to say thank you for staying on top of it. Because one person caught or one crime stopped or one thing that we can control, it was worth it. Thank you. Thank you.

I agree. Thank you.

The other, this is one, you guys talk to people, because I don't think it's going to go away. I think we're going to continue to have people that are concerned about it. I had a really good discussion with with somebody that came into my office last week on the constitutional principle of it, right? Because that's where a lot of the discussion goes towards. It's an invasion of privacy. And, I mean, that was my degree. Like I love our founding. I love the principles and the protections that are guaranteed to us in the Constitution. And as I've tried to analyze it and grapple with it myself because of my tie to those same principles, This is the way that I have come to be comfortable with it, is when the founders wrote those protections to privacy, they were protecting private property and your ability to be on your own property, in your own house, and not have government be able to just come at any time and invade that privacy. They could at that time have placed a constable on every corner and the Constitution would have protected the government to be able to do that and monitor when someone came by in their carriage and had rolled their horse by and they could have taken notes of that person as they were on the public street coming and going. That was not something that they were trying to prohibit the government from doing under the protections of the Constitution. So technology is just allowing that same thing that was allowed then to be allowed now on public streets. So I think it's actually very solid constitutionally even if people will just take a step back and really think about that argument. The biggest question that I still am curious to get a little more information on is who else has that data and what else can that data be used for, right? And that one I still am interested in understanding. I think the way we're using it is appropriate and safe. We've got checks in place that we know who logged on, what they searched. So you can't have an officer that's using it for personal purposes that will catch them and they're going to get in trouble.

And FLOC went one step further, which I appreciate. As of six months ago, there's a case number required now. So I was helping Ken out with a reckless driver at the arena a couple weeks ago and had to go in there and I had to write a report. on the incident, even though it was minor, so I could query the flock system. So you can't just go on there without having a legitimate case number that it's tied to. So that's even strengthened that even more.

And do you do random audits on seeing who logged on? Right.

Yeah, I just did one last week just to see who's checking and what they're checking on, and we have that data there.

Is there anybody? Just on the issue of privacy and how we interpret this equipment, I think sometimes we forget that we buy these phones and we pay for being able to use them. We're being tracked all the time and we sign away.

Yeah.

We're signing away our privacy every time we upgrade or update our Googles and all of that. So I'm with you, Mayor. This is an incredible tool to mitigate some real terrible things that could happen in our community.

But I do get the idea that that's private, that we're choosing to allow Google to do that, right? And we're making a choice versus the government tracking. So I get the argument of where people come from, but I just don't think it's founded in the Constitution. Any other, and then.

Yeah, I was just going to say, so Randall caught some things in there that we need to have changed, and he's been in contact with FLOC. So if you could put this on action, we'll have this modified slightly just so we have specific dates from, for payment when that's due. Yeah. There's no ambiguity there.

Okay, thank you. I did see one citizen that wanted to say something on this. Anything else for Chief? No. Before we have him. Thank you. Yeah, come on up.

Do we need to put a trail camera watching the flock camera so we can catch who's cutting the wires?

Again, my name is Hugo Ramos, and I have what I believe is a relevant question for the Chief. I understand the data is periodically purged, and I'd just be interested in knowing how often it's purged.

I think 30 days is what you said, right? Yep. Thank you. Great question. Thank you. Okay, entertain a motion.

I would move that we put this item on action for next week.

I have a motion.

Second.

And a second. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed? Thank you. Next one is consider an ordinance amending amendment to 3510B to establish no parking zones in the city of 600 South and 1100 West.

Start again with you, Kent. So, council members, you have our memo on this. I guess I would wonder if you have any questions you would like me to try to address.

Fingers.

I'm just going to start down the line.

Scott can go first. No, I don't need to go first. I think you were first. I just have one pretty simple question. Okay, go ahead then, Carter. Would it be from a traffic... I have my feelings on this and I personally at this time don't want to see the left-hand turn lane on 1100. I fully support the one on 600, but the one on 1100, my question is this, would it be weird to have the left-hand turn lane headed south but not have it headed north? If you're going to have it, do you have to have it on both or can you have it going just one direction?

It's certainly possible to have it going one direction, but when you do that, you introduce a situation where the lanes don't line up. Okay, and that? A vehicle who, let's say, for instance, if you were to put the left turn bay in on the southbound approach, that north leg, right? Yep. And not on the northbound approach, on that south leg. Then a vehicle on that northbound approach who's trying to make a left turn If there's a vehicle waiting in the left turn bay opposing him, waiting for a gap in traffic, you can't see past them because of that offset between the two vehicles. Makes that left turn for the northbound vehicle more dangerous when you do that. So there's good reason for trying to line the lanes up, and when you do the turn bay on one side and not the other, it prohibits getting things lined up the way they should be.

So in your professional opinion is you either do them both or you do none. Correct. Okay.

Okay. Councilman Phillips.

Oh, was I next? I have a similar concern, and when we met with the neighbors, one of the things we did talk about is not that people can't make a left-hand turn, but we don't have a designated left-hand turn lane available. Now, I realize that it may create some stacking issues there, but I have a similar concern that Councilman Wilkie does on 1100 there, having a designated left-hand turn lane and how it will impact those neighbors on that street. So I really struggle with that.

Okay. Just a question for Kent. Kent, how long is the left-turn lane designed to be in terms of feet?

Yeah, so in both cases, those left turn lanes are approximately 100 feet long, which is kind of a, I mean, that's a pretty minimal left turn bay length for a signalized intersection. That's like what, four? About four vehicles, correct, yeah.

Thank you. Council Member Schmidt and then Cox.

Just a question. If we took the left turn lanes off but we used the light and we kept an arrow green and a green light so that the let's say we're going west on 600 they could turn they could turn left or they could turn if we had an arrow but the westbound traffic would be held. Then that would switch and we could turn the other and have a green light plus an arrow, which, and I don't know if that would work or not, but it will eliminate moving those over and taking out those, parking areas by the house. Could we try that? Is that something we could try?

So what you're describing is the split phasing that we were talking about earlier when we brought the construction contract award to you. And that is what we had our consultant look at. We had Kimley Horne analyze that to see with the split phasing how much that increases the average delay per vehicle, what that means in terms of the level of service provided by the traffic signal. And what we found was that puts us into a situation where some of the movements during during some of the peak periods of the day end up being a failing traffic movement in terms of the average delay per vehicle. And it puts the intersection at a hole even to where it's on that borderline of going into a failing status in terms of that level of service, that A, B, C, D, E level of service. And when we met with the residents here, I can't remember how long ago, maybe three weeks ago, somewhere around in there, we talked about a lot of things. They brought up all their concerns. One of the things we talked about was would it make sense to open this initially without the left turn bays on 1100 West and with the idea that as traffic volumes increased, we could add those when they were justified. What the analysis we got from Kimley Horn is telling me is that those left turn bays getting away from split phasing is justified from day one. That's why we're recommending that rather than, you know, open this up, the signal operating with the signal heads positioned where they would be without the left turn bays and, you know, doing the striping without the left turn bays only to find that with the complaints we would be getting that we're back in a few months wanting to change it. We felt like it made more sense to just do what we know is going to have to be the case as we move forward and do that now.

With that then, that's going to totally take any offsite parking away from those two houses. Is there something maybe we can allow driveway entrances or whatever could be a lot longer so that they could get off the road? Is there something we can do to help the two houses on the corner? Because this will take all of their offsite parking away. And so, you know, right now we have a limited width on driveways, but maybe with these two houses we could do something.

We made that a lot wider already. Not in this zone. Not in this zone.

Oh, just wait. Is there something that we could do to help these two houses with more parking space?

So that's a good question. The two homes on the, I don't remember for sure on the east side of the street, so I can't comment on that. The two homes on the west side of the street already have fairly wide driveways. You know, I don't know how practical it would be to widen those beyond what they are now.

If they needed to.

But that, I mean, if someone had a proposal of something they thought they needed to do to address a particular issue, I don't know why we wouldn't look at that, right? And try to work with them on a solution. Okay, Councilman Cox.

So you kind of answered my question, but I have a follow up on the study. Did it do a study that showed the turns that were happening in that intersection? So there was obviously more turns on two of the T than the other two.

Correct, yeah. They actually did full traffic counts with every 15-minute period what the number of vehicles were, making all of those turning movements. They did that twice. The first time they did it, we had the construction going on at Center Street and 1100 West, there by the stadium, with the roundabout construction. So we knew, OK, traffic patterns aren't normal right now. So we had them redo those counts once the roundabout had been opened and had been opened for a week or two so the traffic kind of had an opportunity to normalize again. And what we found was that those volumes were still

It was justified both times, right? Correct, yeah.

And it was those numbers from the second time after the other intersection was opened up that they used then to do this traffic analysis that they report on in their report.

Any other questions? So what would, if we were to hold off on the 1100 ones for now and they got at some point added later, it would be restriping, would it be actually physically adding another light to the pole or would it just be repositioning? What do you call the three lights?

Yeah, so it would be... What's the technical term for the three lights on the... Those are your signal heads, is that what you're... Signal heads, thank you. Yes. Yeah, in the split phasing scenario, I think we would still have the same heads that we would have under the... with the flashing yellow arrow display. Well, the same number of heads. The left turn head would be different because what we would have with the flashing yellow arrow display is a four section head where you have your red but then you have your, with the flashing yellow arrow display you have your red and then you have your yellow arrow that flashes and you have your yellow arrow that's solid and you have your green arrow.

Go, go faster and hope you don't get caught.

Yeah, and so, but with the split phasing, we would have a three-section head there that's just red, yellow, and green.

So we'd have to replace a head.

So we'd have one head that would need to be modified. You can add another section to the head. But the position of the heads would have to be changed. And would be, so we'd have to be moving the heads, repulling wire through the poles.

And some restriping.

And do the restriping.

So not a large cost, but there would be some cost associated.

Correct.

Okay.

So for my very simple brain, if we were to recommend that we not put that left turn lane initially in there. We would have to redesign the light. We would do this. At the end of the day, according to the study, we will end up having to put that lane in there and then put the right lights to accommodate traffic. Am I correct in that?

That is correct. And really what it comes down to is If we don't put the left turn bays in, then we need to run the split phasing. Running the split phasing means that those north-south movements have to consume a higher percentage of the green time in the cycle than they would otherwise, meaning we have less time to be able to allocate to that heavy east-west traffic.

The heaviest is the east-west. Oh, yeah.

Exactly, thank you. Okay, anything else? Okay, I know there's some that I wanna speak to this one to us, so you're welcome to come up if you would like to. Same rules as before, you got three minutes.

Hi everybody, I'm Roger Koontz, I live at the corner there at 608 South 1100 West. And the only rule traffic time is when school starts and when school ends. And it's coming this way in the morning, and it's going that way. in the evening. Other than that, we have very little or no traffic on 1100 West. My biggest concerns are safety. With that left turn lane, we're moving the distance. We have where cars can park and the lane is outside of the car. That's going to be right up against the curb, you know, right up against the near the gutter. And it's with that lessened buffer, it's going to be a lot less safe for pedestrians. I mean, we're talking about a neighborhood where there's a lot of people that walk through this intersection, run, little kids. All that kind of stuff. Kids sell stuff on the other corner. And it's going to be a lot closer. I think in the winter it's even more dangerous. Cars parking in front, it kind of shields and protects pedestrians. And then there's, you know, with rain and stuff, that gutter, my gutter gets pretty full and those cars are going to be in that deep water. It gets pretty deep. It gets above my curb and comes up my lawn. So, you know, it's happened at least a few dozen times like that that happens. It makes it less safe. I would think that speed humps should be put in with this light system because people... Don't go there. I'm telling you though, people speed down our street with a light, they want to catch it, they're going to speed even more. With a turn lane and a straight lane, you got more going on. That's a safety thing. There's predominantly been a lot of accidents in this intersection, especially when it was two-way stop. What else? I'm really concerned. When I bought this house, I didn't realize how it would compromise my safety being this close to that intersection. I have to be honest. I removed the junipers because I couldn't see the cars coming around the corner. There's the drain right at the corner. They're going to be so close, they're going to be running across that now with all the dirt and debris getting kicked up to pedestrians and stuff. I see it as a big problem. For me, the safety is bad enough now for me getting in and out that I parked backwards in there. just to get out so that I can see everything. With the light and the left turn lane and everything else, it's gonna be a lot harder, less safe for me. As I've mentioned, we have an eight-year-old autistic boy that lives with us. Across the street neighbor has a 15-year-old autistic boy. I have a 50-year-old female partner that's got multiple sclerosis, and then the lady next door to me is 93, lives by herself. I know that one of the sons is here possibly representing her. I think safety is a reasonable request. I'm really concerned about safety more than anything else to be honest with you.

Okay, thank you. With that, can I have a follow-up question to Kent? You bet. Did the traffic studies consider pedestrian safety when they make a recommendation?

The pedestrian demand that they did count that as well, it certainly factors into the traffic analysis that was done. In terms of, from a safety standpoint, where we are providing the crosswalks, the ped ramps, the ped signals, and the signal timing is such that it doesn't conflict with the ped signals, that's all figured into how that signal would operate. I think that covers what you're asking for. I'm not 100% sure, but yeah, that is included.

I mean, theoretically, it's gonna be safer for pedestrians if we follow that recommended study, right, of what they proposed.

I would say so, just because it, you know, when you're talking about the pedestrians being able to cross the street, you know, if those, if those, Movements east and west, for example, don't get as much green time. That means there's also not as much green time available for the pedestrians that are crossing east and west, right? It impacts both vehicles and pedestrians on that. So I think from that standpoint, anything that reduces the available green time to 600 south is impactful to both vehicles and pedestrians. Thank you.

But what I was talking about more was being closer to the sidewalk. You know, I understand it may make the crosswalk safer, safer, but, and then in the snow plow, the snow is going to be right up on the sidewalk. And I know we didn't have a lot of snow this last winter, but when there is snow, I think it makes it more dangerous. You know, there's going to be more snow to plow off of the sidewalk. Normally it's where the parking is, where the snow goes. So it's gonna be on the sidewalk, and it's gonna make it more dangerous for the pedestrians.

Okay, thank you. The other one I'll ask you, Ken, as a follow-up. My memory is the study. We thought going into it would only show the need during the busy times, but it actually showed that it's justified all the time.

And it was interesting as we had Kimlehorn doing that additional traffic analysis, we were actually finding that the worst case scenario wasn't during the before and after school time. It was more of the midday is where we had the worst traffic operations. you know, with the traffic demand. But yeah, when we looked at the traffic signal warrants in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices to see whether this signal would even be justified, it didn't surprise us at all that we would meet the peak hour warrant. The peak hour warrant has the lowest threshold, or no, excuse me, highest threshold, but only for one hour, right? But we thought we would for sure meet that. The four-hour warrant we thought was reasonably likely. I honestly didn't think we would meet the eight-hour warrant. And this intersection met that volume threshold for eight different hours throughout the day. In fact, I think it may have even been more than eight, but it met the minimum eight, which was kind of a surprise. This is a busy area throughout the day, not just at the before and after school time.

Thank you. Councilman Phillips.

I was gonna wait a little on this, but I'll just, maybe this is the perfect time. I don't wanna open up Pandora's box here, but I can't imagine, there's gotta be as many students that leave and go to the west from the high school as they, I mean, excuse me, the east as they do from the west. I live right on 300 and 600, well, not right there, but on that street, and that four-way stop seems to function Well, I don't know if we've done a study there, but I can't imagine why that intersection is so dramatically different than the other section on the other end.

Well, if I may, I think the other reason there is because that one involves Walmart and that one involves the hill. It involves, I mean, it's the only way you get over the freeway. I mean, that's one of the main ways.

Yeah, but if you come down 300, you're still going to go that way.

Yeah, but I think, you know, I mean, as somebody who... Has Kimberly Horne even looked at that?

Not that I'm advocating for another traffic signal there. I don't want that.

We did not analyze the 300 west, 600 south intersection.

It doesn't have the cars backing up near as bad as the other one. They go clear back up over the freeway.

This wasn't during the school time, but I counted 20 cars and not one of them turned left. I can honestly say that. I don't know what's going to happen during the school year during the peak traffic in the morning and And especially in the afternoon where I'm more affected, I haven't been able to actually look at that and count that. But I've never heard a count of how many cars out of how many go straight and how many go left. I haven't heard a number from anybody. and then when the snow plow comes, it's also gonna plow, now it's gonna plow the snow directly into my driveway. It's really a bad corner for me.

So the Kimley Horn report that was included in the packet that's on the website, that does include those numbers that he's asking for. There are considerable left turn volumes on all four approaches based on the counts that were done.

So we can provide those to you. Is there anybody else who would like to speak?

My name is Ben Hewlett. I live on the north side of 600. Just a couple things. I've been there for say 17 years, and when it was a two-way stop, it was horrible and dangerous. The four-way stop has been amazing. But the light, I don't know. We've been counting the last few days on traffic. Every time we get a chance, we'll sit there and count cars. We're doing our own survey. You're that bored, huh? On our side of the road is 12% turn left, 58% turn right, and 30% go straight. So if we have a turning lane to the left and a straight and a turn lane, the straight and turn lanes can get backed up with 60%, almost 60% turning right. In peak hours in the mornings, it's tough to get out of our driveway. If we back out, we typically back out and try to hug the curb just to go either direction, just because it's easier that way. But, I mean, that's our biggest concern is that, I mean, it is tough to get out of the driveway, but if traffic's backed up for right turns because they're waiting for a light because someone's going straight, It's going to be a lot because we get a lot of Walmart traffic, the hill traffic coming right past our house. I'll bet you, I mean, aside from 600, I'll bet we have three, four times the amount of traffic on this north side of 600 as they do on the south.

How many cars go straight and how many go right? What was the percentages?

Our count was right was 58%, straight was 30%, and left was 12%.

Because, so help me understand this, Kent, or yourself. This is on 1100. This is on 1100 headed south.

On 1100. Going to Walmart. Headed south. Right there.

So if we don't put in the turn lane, the left turn and the going straight are going to share a lane, and then the right would be able to technically hug the corner and...

There's not really room there to have that be two separate lanes, so all three movements would use the same lane. if we don't have the left turn bay.

Can I ask a process?

That seems like that would really be a backup problem, right? That would make it worse if you only had one.

You could get in and out if there's no turn lane because it was faster.

I think if we have a left turn lane, the backup problem on that side of the road is going to be more significant than it is now. You think it'll be worse with the left turn?

But if there's only one lane that all three are sharing, then it'll back up even worse.

Yeah. Well, there's two lanes there now. People do it all the time. I've seen them. They stop, and the other ones move to the right and make the right-hand turn. There's enough room for two cars there.

I don't know. I've driven through there enough. Like, since the whole stoplight stuff, I sit there and count every time I go there. I'm yet to sit there for 30 seconds to get through the intersection the way it is now. Even when I've come for upstage drive and turned on 600 to go home, I mean, peak school hours to where people coming off the hill have to let you in, you're there for maybe two minutes with the four-way stop. I mean, it moves. I mean, I can see why everyone's frustrated with it, but at the same time, I mean, it does move. I mean, we restructured how we get our kid to school by three minutes, and we avoid the whole thing by three minutes. So three minutes earlier is amazing. That's, yeah, that's what we've come up with. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. Thank you.

Yeah, I thought I saw Council Funger first.

Just out of curiosity, I don't remember correctly all the statistics that went to back up the study, but I'm assuming that they went through the trouble of observing and counting so that there are samples that recommend every single action that we've discussed on this thing is statistically correct.

Yeah, so what the, I mean, they followed the typical procedures that are outlined with the various traffic engineering publications out there. What you typically do on a traffic signal and warrant study is you take a full day from early in the morning to late at night where you're counting all of the movements during that entire period. You try to make sure you're picking a day that is typical. You don't pick a Friday or Saturday. You don't pick a Monday. You don't pick a holiday. You don't pick a day when there's a storm. You try to make sure you have a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday which is your more typical days and avoids the extremes and you try to pick those days and make sure that there isn't some event, that there isn't anything that would make that day atypical and you count that day. That's the standard for how these studies are done and that's what our consultant did on this. Okay, thank you. Ken, could you scroll down to page six?

Don't scroll down yet. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Tom Jet, could you go right up here? So one of our local residents, Tyler Brown, owns this parcel right here.

Correct.

Is this going to limit any of his use for access with this new light? Now, full disclosure, I do own two lots up here that I'm building on.

I don't think Tyler has access right there. He just put up a new fence right around that corner.

No, he doesn't have now. I'm saying if he ever wants to subdivide this, will this in any way, this light limit his access into the two lots that he would make, potentially two lots if you base it by the potential size of the lot?

What do you mean by limit his access? Well, yes. He'd have the same. I mean, they could get in and out, but they'll have no parking in front of them.

He's asking if he subdivides the horse pasture, would there be limits on where you could put his driveways?

That's what I'm referring to, his driveways right in here. Well, but losing the shoulder is not going to change. I mean, his distance to the intersection would be the only thing, which he has either way, right?

I think Kent can answer that question with a yes or no. Okay.

They would be held to what our ordinance says on their access points.

Which is the same with or without stoplight?

Correct. Yeah.

Okay. I didn't know if you had to be so far away from a stoplight to have a driveway or that type thing. Not necessarily. Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. Anybody else? For the record, I support the light. I drive that intersection quite frequently because I have some other rentals in that neighborhood. Thank you. I take my life into my hands every time I try to turn.

They're going to throw water balloons or something at you after you.

That's the one.

This is the one you want?

Yeah, just so people can have an opportunity to see what the analysis was showing.

Yeah, come on up.

I'm Belinda Scriver, and my family has owned the second house on the east side of 1100 West, south of 600 South. And I think, I don't want to open the Pandora's box that was mentioned. I just want to say that of the people who live in this area, that's not the living experience of this intersection for the people that live there. I know this is based on complaints, but I really question whether people's complaints about traffic justifies changing the tenor of this neighborhood completely. You can't go back after you turn this into what amounts to an intersection like Main and 600 South, it changes the neighborhood. And I don't think that is what should really be done with this neighborhood. I think there should be alternatives, although I think that's gonna fall on deaf ears because we have the traffic study, we're gonna put the lights in. I think we should eliminate the left-hand turn lanes, that's my request, as being part of that home in that area so that the impact is as low as it can be on the people that actually live there versus the people that are complaining because they can't organize their lives to get somewhere earlier than the last minute and cause all these problems. That's it. And thank you for meeting with us. I wanna thank the city council, thank the engineering department. It's been a really good learning experience, so thank you.

Ken, will you go back to that chart? There were some members that won some, of our public that wanted to take a picture of that, and you moved off of it too quick.

Yeah, and just, that is online.

Yeah.

For the agendas.

Yeah, if you pull up our agenda, this'll all be part of the packet, but, well, not the agenda. They'd have to go to, it's on the website. Oh, okay.

Click on it. On the distribution, I'll turn it to you.

Okay, council?

Mayor, I would move this.

Sorry, we got one more coming. You're good.

I wasn't planning on saying anything, but I'm wondering when this study was done. When was this last study done?

I don't remember the exact date of the counts, but it was last year after the roundabout had opened up, and I believe it was when school was in session.

So did it take into consideration that the church across the street on 1100 West from my house was being used as the seminary, which means all that traffic from the high school kids, but they were going down that street. I think that you're interested to maybe do another traffic study because that increased the traffic a lot. Just having the seminary in the church. There were kids coming and going all day long. When on the year before, there were never, there was no one at the church.

Were they driving to the church from the school? Oh, sure. Oh, the tons of them. Oh, yeah.

Were they just straight there for seminary? Yes. Oh.

Yeah.

So that traffic study, I think, is flawed. I think it needs to be done again.

That's a good point.

See, when you come and speak data, that's powerful. All of us are sitting here thinking, dang.

That increased it a lot. Thank you. I retired this year, so I was able to see it. I was at South Elementary. Also, when you put this light in, I would like to make a request for one of those speed light things in front of that church for the northbound traffic you said you had a few of them on the budget i would love one of those because they come down that street really fast yeah that's when we definitely aren't even looking up they're looking at their phones yeah so i would appreciate that that's another through street we need to make sure we're policing better too yeah and they have been good i appreciate that too thank you thank you

Mayor, I would move that we put this on action for next week.

I have a motion.

Second.

And a second. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay. With that, though, how hard would it be, because we don't know which way we're going to go, Ken, how hard would it be to have both drawings of what it would look like with the left lane and without, or how would next week, because if we decide to vote on without it, we don't know what it's going to look like.

We could put something together.

Are you guys okay with that? Because it's like without the left lane. I'd still want to see what it would look like without the left lane if we're going to approve it.

We can put something together, yeah. No problem. Sounds good.

Thank you. Could you show the distance that the outside line, how close that's going to be to the curb?

Yeah, I was looking at that again, Roger, after you and I had spoken before the meeting. We were not planning on a fog line or whatever you want to refer to it as along that stretch where we have the lane going between the left turn bay and the gutter. but that's something we can certainly take a look at.

There's no space for a bicycle lane or any of that?

So I was looking at that again on the drawings as we've been sitting here and we actually have the bicycles and the vehicles sharing the lane through that short stretch until we get past the left turn bay.

I just have one more question for Kent on that data. The turns were similar off school time. Did it have times on that, if you go back up to that? I'm just wondering, because that is a good point on the seminary. Absolutely. And I'm just wondering if there's data outside of those hours, if you can see.

So the hours that we looked at, we had the a.m. peak time, which the a.m. commuter time corresponds with the a.m. school time as well. So that's why there's one a.m. there. We looked at a midday peak. So from the data that went throughout the full day, the consultant identified what the midday peak would be, and then there was an afternoon school peak, and then the commuter peak that came later than the school peak. So you see all four of those. There's similar data all the way through.

So it would be the middle one is the one that could be potentially influenced by the seminary traffic, right? The midday peak.

It could potentially have been, yeah. I mean, when you look at the street network.

I don't know if seminary.

Over there, you look at where the school parking lot is and where the church building is. This is the church they were using for seminary.

Oh, is that the one they were using for seminary?

Yes, they were using that one for the seminary right there. He's correct in the one he's pointing to. The shortest distance between the parking lot where the students park and that church building is to come around on 800 South, not 600 South. I don't doubt that some used 600 South, but certainly the...

But then they're going to turn right on 600 to go back to school, possibly.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, we're moving on from this one, so... Next one is consider a backup generator for the Quichapa well. I had a feeling you were going to bring this one up, Phil.

Well, you know, I did not realize.

Thank you all. It's kind of crazy, huh?

I did not realize that we have backup generators on our sewer lift stations. But we have zero backup generators on our wells. We tell you here how much it costs. We talked about this last week. No, we take care of that. Oh, you're paying for them? Yeah, I got lots of money coming in.

That's on the record.

I didn't say I had. Money's coming in. Anyway, I called Matt, and then I talked to Ryan a little bit. I talked to Matt a lot. So I would like Matt to come up. And also I talked to Chief, the fire chief, a little bit. So I'd like both of them, if they'd come up and give us a little feel here. You're being summoned. You're prepared, so come up here and tell us what you got.

It's not a million dollars.

Well, that's what we were told last year. No, it's not that.

Matt Baker, Water Department. This has been talked for a while in the Water Department going around about backup generators at our wells. It took a while before it got on to A budget last year there. Two years ago, we were almost there. We were two weeks out from having this generator come out of Quichapa 8. It got canceled, moved somewhere else. Now everybody is seeing what the power company is going to be doing now for safety reasons. And we have no water to get into Cedar City right now at this moment within an instant of a flip of a switch. We have two backup diesel motors that take anywhere between eight hours to 24 hours to get set up, depending on if we can get the crew there to do it. Everything has to be lined up. Us, pump guys, electricians, the cranes, if they're all in town, maybe eight hours. If not, who knows? By the time we get it set up, power's on, and then we just wasted all that time doing that. Then we got to switch it back. So what's it going to cost? So this bed I got right now for a 650K generator that'll run our 600 horsepower motor at Quichapa 8 is $401,000. So that's for one well. That's for one well.

So my question is,

That's everything, though, isn't it? That's everything. That's running. It's ready to turn on.

So one, does having, I mean, obviously having one well is better than having no wells. Correct. Is this something that we should be doing now, or is this something we should be doing in conjunction? Because we're going to be lowering the amount of power we have to use out of there once we complete the project at the Y, correct? The new pumps are going to use less electricity, right? Because we're not going to be pumping at 300 PSI anymore. So is this, if we were to buy this generator now, is that something that now it covers one well, but once we lower, it could be used to cover multiple wells, or?

We can move it to our, or not our, Enoch 3 well. It's got the same 600 horsepower motor.

So back to my question then, is this something you think we should be doing now or should we be waiting until we and buy a smaller one and possibly buy two or three to cover multiple wells once we are using less electricity?

My recommendation would be buy six generators right now. Two at our Enoch Wells, two at our South Quichapo Wells, our Golf Course Booster and our South Booster.

So 2.4 million?

It would be a little less at some of the other wells because they're smaller pumps.

And then a year, and then a year from now, most of them will have the other four, but then, but then most of those wouldn't be, they don't go out.

We use these, use it. We know the other ones are coming. So we're given enough wells to keep us going. Those wells, when the pressure's reduced, will have, I think generators are in that bid package, are coming. They will have the generator in that package. That's not, these are not.

But we buy these to put them in, but then we redo those.

No, we don't change those. These ones I just said will not be in that package, that Quichipaw North field well.

They're separate. They're separate, okay.

But to answer your question, Ryan Marshall, Public Works Director. We'll be having a meeting next week with the engineering firm that we've hired to develop and design that system. They do have backup generation in all of the ones that are going to be touched and going to be worked on. We talked about that. It's probably a third of the total cost of the project is just going to be in backup generation. So this meeting next week when Jonathan gets back is to find out Do we want to put one on everything? Are we going to look at emergency situations that we could reduce some of that down? How we want to approach that as a city? So I think it was between five and six million they were saying is built into that project for just backup generators and things like that.

Of that roughly 20 million number that we've been talking about, you're saying five to six, 17, five to six of that is just generators?

And we also talked about, just kind of off topic, is how we're gonna fund that. We talked a little bit about the brick grant that we just went through for our storm drain. We found out that Colorado, a lot of the water providers are using that grant funding to do backup generation on their pumps. And so it's something that we're gonna look into. I don't know if we can make this year's deadline, because I think that was last week.

I don't think you can make the brick grant that they're, currently working on for the storm drain, but Jones and Mill is very familiar with that though.

So we can look at that. That may be a possible solution to fund some of those and maybe throw some of these others in as well. That whole grant is for to try to avoid a hazardous situation before it happens and so they were able to justify it in Colorado for it. So I think we could maybe put that in for Utah. Like I say, I know last week or the week before was the deadline for the state. The federal deadline for these grants is July 21st.

July something, I believe, yeah.

So I don't know if the state would still consider it.

I don't think we could make that with this because you already had some stuff turned in.

Okay.

But with that, Mayor, and then Chief, you want to come up? So these wells that Matt's talking about are different. So if we were to do these wells, we might not have to do the backup wells right at this time on that other one. But right now, we have zero. And so the part that concerns me is that we don't have anything for backup at all. And so that's what concerns me. And then this project's coming, but it's gonna be, it's a year out at least. So Chief, what are your thoughts on the water situation?

Mike Phelps, Fire Department. We use a lot of water to fight fires with. Most of it comes out of the fire hydrants, but we have the capability to draft. So we can go to the lake on the hills and fill everything off of it and drain that down with our trucks and fill from there. But we have to transport it with our water tenders. So we have some contingencies in place for fires, but our primary way we get water is through the fire hydrants.

So do you think we need backup generators?

Yeah, we need water.

So which wells are these wells when you're talking about put it on these wells but not those wells? Yeah, that's where I'm confused.

Me too.

We have a well filled in Quitchipaw and we have two wells out by Enoch. That's it.

Matt, go over where you're at. Okay, so the two are the ones I just brought up today are the two Enoch 1 and Enoch 3 wells out in Enoch. And Quitchipaw 1 and Quitchipaw 3, those feed our south system. Those are separate from the four on the pressure reduction system. And the other two are boosters. at the golf course and at the Maverick south end of town.

Okay, wait, wait. So they would have nothing to do with this reduction thing that we're doing? No. So Quichipaw 1 and 3 are not part of the whole Y project?

No.

At all? They pump into that steel south line that goes to the south.

Okay, so they're not ones pumping at 300 PSI and all that kind of stuff. So those are the two at Quichipaw that you want to try and get covered by these projects. generators. The other four will get covered under that project.

So you're talking four wells and two booster stations.

That makes more sense.

I still have a question, Mayor.

This was all still Carter's stuff, so I was just letting it kind of play through.

Well, no, Phil was talking, and we keep talking about the package. What package are we talking about? I don't understand what we're talking about.

The pressure reduction one, the $17 million. Okay.

That covers four of our six.

So my understanding, we were going to have to probably bond for that.

Oh, yeah.

So I think that we have to look at a way to include some of this into that bond. If we're talking about $17 to $20 million... I mean, I don't know how else we do it.

Well, we could buy these six wells, these generators, but we just have to change a couple of things.

What's your lead time on them?

Generators? 55 weeks. 55 weeks? Wow. Well, these are like semi-trailers big, right?

How big are these things? 650 kilowatt. I don't know. What, maybe like a V10? diesel motor with big twin turbos?

Do we have to, like, put them in a little house so they don't sit out in the rain?

No, they just sit outside. Huh? They sit outside.

Oh.

The ones you guys saw last time was a portable one that was in a van trailer. And that was the one that was over a million dollars. And so I talked with Tony today. We talked with Matt. Tony Barney was the one to put that bid together. Tony's the one that's talking to Wheeler about these generators. Yeah, and it's just something I think that we need to start thinking about because of the lead times and everything else. But this, and I told Tony, I said, we don't want a portable because they're way expensive, three or four times as much. And these are permanent based generators.

So with the 55-week lead time, you might as well roll that into your bond and that would be your funding source and you could still have them.

That's what I'm thinking.

They would still be here in approximately a year.

Can we order them without having to put up a bunch of money?

I think we can do an RPO. You can do a rental purchase option. They work with a lot of municipalities, so you wouldn't have to pay for all of this right up front. Their head guy is on vacation right now, but if he got back, we'd just have a meeting with him. they'd be pretty easy to work with. It's not a lot of out cash that you'd have to do right up front.

You got, well, we could explore that option to figure out what the fiscal impact's gonna be, but if you have a multi-million dollar capital improvement, You're probably going to give authorization or be asked to give authorization for the larger bond for the pressure reduction project this fall when we have enough.

If we're going to have these, if they're going to be in there, then it's probably something that we need to say now. Because if the contractor waits until they have the contractor, you have the project, then you're 55 weeks from then. So at one point in time, I think, if we're going to do this, we need to say, OK, we're ordering the generators so that we can get them here.

I just think it's a bigger discussion. Do we feel like we need to have the full system function at max capacity for the emergency time? We just need something. Because you're also going to factor in a 4 million gallon tank of extra storage that comes into our system once we connected the Y into the Conservancy District. doubles our current storage capacity?

No. Maybe.

Around?

That's what they give us. I don't know.

Well, we have access to it. For an emergency standpoint, you'd have access to the whole amount, right?

Well, that's their water tank. But if they don't have power either, how are they pumping water?

No, it's got full storage.

If it's full. If it's full, yeah.

But I'm just saying there's extra factors here than us just jumping to an extreme of let's put it on every tank for the emergency situation. And should we really have a plan more focused on how to be cost sensitive to the taxpayer dollars to make sure we're covered and we can keep water flowing to their toilets and drinking, but not necessarily our full capacity?

I wanted to bring it up today because this Yeah, we're not going to figure it out today. Yeah, but get the discussion. I agree. We do need to talk about it.

Yeah, 100% agree. Councilman Phillips.

And if it's 55 weeks, we need to order them sooner rather than later, at least some. Yeah, can you help me understand, and I'm willing to learn in this process, but we've been talking about this pressure reduction process for months, and now we're saying it's probably going to be early fall or fall. Why? Why?

So you need to have your engineering done to a point where you have enough of the engineering done and a cost estimate so you can go to the finance guys and say, this is how big of a bond we're going to need.

and that's the process we're in right now.

The engineering for that project has to be done by, I think it's December or is it November? The full engineering's gotta be done by November. We would ask short of that for some cost estimates so we could start the bonding process. We would probably come and ask you to authorize bonding higher than that engineering estimate so that you can free up that capacity. It doesn't mean you have to use all the capacity. We would probably ask for a higher bond limit at that point. And if we need to roll these backup generators into it, then that's something we could consider.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what we should consider. But 55 weeks is a long lead time.

Yeah, it is.

Carter.

So, Matt, my thought on this, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, and obviously I don't know, one-tenth of what you know about all this. But if we were to, for example, let's say, look at doing two generators for now to get things moving, would it make sense to put one in Enoch and one out at Quichapa so that way both areas have... Because here's what I'm getting at. I do think us rolling it into the bond is where we're going to ultimately have to end up. But I would also like to see us, if we can keep it to maybe just a couple of the generators, we did just, in theory, well, not even in theory, we did just move money over unallocated into our capital I mean, if we wanted to go out and buy two of these, whether or not we can roll it over into the bond, we could absorb buying two of these.

So you need to go back into your discussion about enterprise funds versus general funds. That's part of the discussion you're going to need to have for that thought process. The other thing is if you put it on the two wells, you still need to put it on the booster pumps. There's a booster pump at the golf course and a booster pump on South Main. If you have it on the wells, it doesn't maximize our capacity if you don't put them on the booster pumps.

Okay. What I'm trying to get at is, I want to plan for us putting it on the bond, but for some reason, what would be the most, and maybe this is a question that Terry could work on and get back to us. Not any, what could be something we could absorb? I mean, would we have, do we have possible funding if we said, yeah, we need to buy two or three or four of these in the near.

You need to look at your capital reserves and your water enterprise.

And that's my question. Is that something we can do? Yeah, we can get that number.

Yeah.

And then that way, again, we plan on putting in the bond, but.

Yeah, right now this is the discussion to get data, right? To start to talk and get data. So that's great.

I'll visit with Wheeler too and see what all our options are. whether rental purchase or whatever, what kind of things we'd be looking at. Even if it comes in the bond, the lead time is so long that generators are going to need to be ordered pretty quick.

You could always approach it with the worst case scenario of using capital funds and then by that time we get the bond in place and can potentially end up buying them with the other

I'll come back with that.

I'm assuming the O and M on these, I mean, because you're obviously going to have to have guys that go and, I mean, you have to run them from time to time. You've got diesel fuel you've got to switch out. I mean, diesel can't sit forever, right?

So it comes with the diesel tank underneath, and they start every Monday, whatever day you program to exercise them.

It does it automatically? Just to keep them functioning. And then every once in a while you just have to go fill the diesel tank with fuel? Yeah.

Okay. Your question, if you put them on the north system, are they going to go three and four? One wells only feed the north tank and the 3200 northing. There's no way to get the water to the other system without Generator the golf course. Yes. Okay. Oh, yeah And so if you put them on the kitchen Paul one wells and three wells it only feeds the south tank and that's it because it's the lowest and there's no way to get it from there to any other well, that's why I was thinking so Matt could you could you do a little bit of data calculation for us as part of this discussion looking at it from a

Obviously, your preference. You're the one that would want to have it function at peak capacity and not have to stress at all about telling public that we have to shut water off and restrict water use for a little while until we get Rocky Mountain to turn power back on. But would you run some data on helping us just understand if you have two of those wells with generators on them and they're pumping, how many gallons a minute is that going to give us? How much does that mean we've got to restrict flows in the city in order to not run out of water? Just help us understand kind of what those levels would be as a worst case scenario, an emergency for a few days or a week, rather than the full capacity

During the winter, we're running two wells. That's all it takes to run our system. Right now, I'm running every single well we have to barely keep up. We'd have been out of water in six hours. I know. We lost a foot an hour in our cross hollow tank. So if nobody shut down, like people say, oh, I'm not doing it because of the data center, this and that bulk thing.

He controlled himself right there. He was about to let it fly.

It has nothing to do with that. The only way we're going to run off two wells is if everybody shuts their water down. If not, we're going to run out.

But we have a little bit of it. It would be interesting to see, like, for example, this time we did get the major users to shut down.

On that, I'll say that Thursday afternoon when I walked out here at 3.30, I texted the Parks Department, SUU, and Iron County to tell them to shut their water down to help us out, and they applied, no problem. They didn't even question.

We will do that. That ends up saving us how much of that peak use. That's where my brain's going. You can track some of that, especially with our equipment now. to know if the big water users shut down, that drops our need for pumps down to X, right? Just some of that data would be valuable.

I think some of that was like 20% to 30% that we saved. But that's what this meeting next week is going to be with the engineers is during your peak time in an emergency situation, if you were able to cut some flows down, can you get by with just one or two or three wells on a backup generator? or not, and that's what the analysis that Jonathan and the engineers are going to be doing next week on this.

Yeah, I think you know, Matt, it's not a question of, do we wish we could do it? I think there's not one of us here that if the budget, the money was there, we would just... Another thing to look at, if one of those has a generator on it and that motor's down, then we're out of...

Hopefully they don't go down.

This needs to not be a wish thing, Carter.

I'm not saying it is, but it can't.

I still think it's a balanced approach, right? When you talk about emergencies, all the time you can spend all the money you want to protect against every emergency, but there's still got to be some calculated risk that is a reality of life.

We'll get some information from our finance director, and we'll go from there.

Okay. A couple of quick things. Oh. We were about 11 million gallons. 11 million just before that, but our peak is 12.4 million gallons. And Saturday and Sunday, we were just over 8 million gallons of water usage. So we only saved 3 million gallons a day. And that shut off two wells. That's it. and that's including the tanker base running also.

Which ones did we lose to the power being turned off? Everything. We lost the six at Quichapa.

We lost Enoch 3. That was running, and then that shut off, and we luckily had Enoch 1 running, and it was only pumping 800 gallons a minute, and that kept pretty much the tanker base in water, that tank level with the tanker base.

Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Matt.

Anything else there, Mr. President?