Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

All right. Good evening, everybody. This is the Carver Zoning Board of Appeals. We are meeting in room one this evening. It is June 25th, 2026, and it's about 635 p.m. As is our custom, the first thing that we do is handle some administrative matters before we get into the actual cases that are before us this evening. FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS WILL BE TO APPROVE THE MEETING MINUTES OF MAY 27, 2026, WHICH WAS OUR PREVIOUS MEETING. DOES EVERYBODY HAVE A COPY OF THE DRAFT MINUTES WHICH I CIRCULATED IN ADVANCE OF TONIGHT'S MEETING? YES. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY CHANGES, AMENDMENTS, OR MODIFICATIONS THEY'D LIKE TO MAKE?

NO.

ALL RIGHT. SO DO I HEAR A MOTION?

MOTION TO ACCEPT THE MINUTES. AS WRITTEN. AS WRITTEN. SECOND. FOR APRIL 9th. SECOND.

May 27th. May 27th. And Mr. Poirier seconds. All in favor? Aye. Okay, so those meeting minutes are adopted and become part of the official record. Next, we have one public hearing which had appeared on our agenda for this evening. That was public hearing case number 60-6-0R, the petitioner being billed X, LLC. Now, as I recall, the vice chair recused himself from this particular case. Is that true? That's correct. All right. So whatever action we take tonight, you're not going to be voting. However... We have received communication from the petitioner in this case that it wishes to withdraw its request for relief because they have changed their building plan. And as a result of changing their building plan, they no longer require any relief from this board. But for the fact that they are now asking to withdraw without prejudice, meaning that should they decide that they want to refile, they would be allowed to do that. I'm not quite sure why they want that. I'm just speaking for myself now. If they're going to go ahead and build and not need any relief from this board, I'm not sure why we should keep this open, but I throw that open for discussion to you folks. What do you want to do? Withdraw with prejudice or without? Without. without just in case something happens? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Anybody else want to say anything?

No.

All right. So do I hear a motion to allow the withdrawal on this case number 60-6-0R, the petitioner being billed X, LLC? Do I hear a motion to allow withdrawal without prejudice?

I'll make that motion.

Do I hear a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. So we're done with that. Now we have two other matters, one of which is a new one, and I'm gonna get to that one straight away. That one is public hearing case number 117-11-KR, and I ask the vice chair of the board to read that notice into the record, please.

Okay, for case 117-11-KR, Petitioner John Spinetto, A petition was filed seeking a dimensional variance pursuant to Article 290-2-3.2 and 290-5-2.2 of the Carver Zoning Bylaw for property located at 10 Bisbee Drive in Carver Carver Mass Assessor's Map 117, lot 11-K-R. So as the construct of 30 by 30 accessory dwelling unit in the residential agricultural district, a variance of approximately 8.4 feet is needed due to the fact that the east side of the subject property has a setback of only 21.6 feet, 30 feet is required. Very good.

Now Ms. Dahl, do you have anything you want to say for the record?

I guess just for the record, I should say that I do know the Spinettos. Our children grew up together, but I don't see any reason why I can't make a fair vote on what they're looking for.

So you don't feel as if you have a partiality one way or the other?

Yeah, no, absolutely not.

I have to say, again, for the record, that we live in a small town, and we frequently encounter people in our personal lives that sometimes then we encounter in our lives. semi-professional lives up here. And if we were to recuse ourselves every time we happen to just know someone, hello, how are you, seeing them in the post office of the grocery store, it would be difficult to attain a quorum. So I understand what you're saying, and if you feel as if you are able to render a fair and impartial decision, then the chair is fine with that. Does anyone have any concerns about the disclosure that Ms. Dahl just made? Mr. Poore, you have any concerns?

I have known Ms. Dahl to be impartial in all situations, Chair.

Thank you. The gentleman to my right? No concerns.

No, no issues.

Okay. So let's proceed. Is Mr. Spinetto here?

Yes.

Could you approach the microphone? And I see that you are sitting with a nice young lady. Are you with Mr. Spinetto?

Yes.

Would you like to come and accompany him? Thank you. So you are John Spinetto. I am. And you are?

Camille Spinetto.

Camille Spinetto. And Mr. Spinetto, can you tell the board, please, a little bit about what it is that you'd like to do?

Requesting relief for the zoning laws to construct approximately 900 square foot ADU attached to my existing home. my wife and i plan to move into that and my son and his growing family will move into our existing home this will ensure that my wife and i can live out the rest of our lives on the property that we've brought our children up for the last 27 years and we've raised our children there and my son is excited about bringing his soon-to-be three children and and bringing them up in the town that he grew up in and the house that he grew up in.

Are you excited about that, too?

Yes. Because we'll have three of our grandchildren directly right next door to us. That would be pretty cool. Okay. The location on our property is essentially the only place on our property that we can do this. Why do you say that? Due to the fact that there's an Eversource easement in the back of the house with the power lines. And on the left side of the house... There's a chimney to deal with, and quite frankly, we'll run into the same 30-foot setback on that side. So basically, it's the only place I can go. This project will be great for my family. My son will get a lodge at home for his family. He travels quite a bit for his job, so we'll be able to help his wife out. We'll have our kid grandchildren right next door. And then later on in life, when my wife and I get a little on in years, we have help right next door. So we plan that we'd be able to spend the rest of our life in our house.

All done?

All done.

Mrs. Spinetto, would you like to say anything?

I'm shaking like a leaf. He does a really good job. But I'm very, very excited.

OK. We review all of these cases in advance of the evening that we have our hearing. Don't shake like a leaf. You're fine. So we come to these hearings with a familiarity, a certain familiarity with regard to the case. We don't speak to each other in advance of the case. We don't make preliminary decisions behind your back, but we review all the paperwork individually. And then we get together collectively and we render a judgment. So let me tell you what I gleaned from the records, and you tell me if I have this right, okay? Your property is at 10 Bisbee Drive, yes? Yes. And this is going to be an attached accessory dwelling. Yes. We had one recently that was detached. This is an attached. Yes. And you've lived in this home since roughly 1998. Is that true? And you've already explained eloquently that you want to have your son and his family move in. to the primary residence, and you're going to move into the ADU, which is going to be constructed. Now, the side set back to the east of the property is just that 21.6 feet, as you heard the vice chair read into the record. So you know that 30 feet is required. You're short, what's that, 8? 8.4. 8.4. See, he's going to mine like a steel trap. 8.4. And you have trees on the east side of the lot?

Yes.

Down the lot line?

Yes.

Which separates your property from the neighbor. Is that true?

Yes.

I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm just kind of summarizing based upon what I read from your submissions. So you think that that tree line will be sufficient to ensure privacy between your property and that of your neighbor?

I have no problem putting the fence up there if that's...

Is the tree line sufficient to insure property? Can you see your neighbor's house through that tree line? I'm sorry? Can you see your neighbor's house through that tree line?

In the wintertime, you can. Yeah, you can actually.

Can you see it now, now that it's all leafed out?

Yes.

Okay. And you've indicated as well that the location of the ADU cannot be adjusted on the lot. Because you have lack of space on the west side. And is that where the power line easement is on the left side?

No, the power line is in the back.

Where is the septic system? Is that also in the rear?

Yes.

Okay. In the paperwork, Mr. Chair, it indicated that If it was on the other side, you'd be requiring the same relief regardless of which side of the house that's going to be attached.

Is that true, Mr. Spinetto?

I'm sorry?

Speak up, Mr. Poirier.

He's having trouble hearing. You require the same relief even if you were attaching it to the opposite side of the house. Is that correct?

It's my family because my house is pretty much directly in the middle of the east and west side of that lot.

I'm not sure you answered Mr. Poirier's question. Are you going to be short on both sides?

Yes. Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Poirier. Okay. That's what I gleaned from the paperwork. What do you have, Ms. Dahl?

Just a couple questions. So you want to do 30 by 30. Are you opposed to making the front shorter and then going back further? Would that work? So you could gain some footage basically so you wouldn't have to ask for so much on that right-hand side?

the easement will allow me to go back and pretty much if you...

So that dotted line is that easement that you really can't go beyond?

If you look at the plot plan that the surveyor did, the easement goes right up, almost right up to the... To the back of where you're proposed and where the back of the house is now?

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you have any plans you would like to show us? I see some rolled up papers in front of you.

These are a full set of plans.

Yeah, we like show and tell, so come on up.

Do you have the picture that Jake did, too? We didn't do this. I don't know nothing about AI.

Sure. Potentially.

Potentially.

AI rendition that my son did about what it's going to look like. This is the new edition. This is the existing house.

Can you believe that? All right. We can figure this out. You can go back and sit. So give us a couple of minutes to take a look at this. A lot of brain power up on this side of the table. Let's go on this side, right?

I would agree with that wholeheartedly, yes.

Did you get to see the picture yet?

He saw it.

He did? Oh, okay.

I'm sorry.

I think it's because they found out during, from what I read in the notes. So did you find out during the surveying that your lot was off by seven feet? Yes, very much so. So that's why the fence kind of runs at an opposite way?

The back story is that the I don't know, maybe eight years ago.

Who built your house?

Eversource, clear cut everything.

Yep, they did.

And everybody screamed and yelled. And they offered to put out the fence.

Okay.

I said, well, yeah, that's fine. Right. And they put the fence up. Well, now, when I got the surveyor's plan back... You found out that it's not... We found out that we're way into... You're way into someone else's... To Joe's property. And also, the surveyor told me that... They were virtually no markers on Bisbee Drive. He found one out on the Bog Road, and he had to go all the way up to South Meadow Road to come back and get it. And he said there's virtually no plot plan on the street.

My mom lived on South Meadow. That's correct.

I believe that, yeah.

So is your neighbor here?

Yes.

Oh, okay. So your neighbor is still eating out.

This is bigger than that.

Yeah, this fence. This fence line over here on this.

Right.

So are you planning on removing the fence when you do the actual?

I have the surveyor coming out a bit next week. Okay.

Yes. And it goes back in on the Navis property.

Yeah.

This was a subdivision back in February. Is the space that you're building there above, there's a garage underneath, right? Yes. Is it at the same level as the main house?

Yeah, the floor is going to be the exact same level as the existing home.

As the existing ground floor of your house, right? Right. Okay.

I didn't understand anything else. Yeah.

You have an extra set of plans? I'm sorry?

You have an extra set of plans.

I do. I have another one at home.

Yeah. You're going to have to submit these plans. Can you hear me?

I can.

Yes. You're going to have to submit these plans.

Okay. Mr. Palmer has a set of plans.

You have a set of plans, Mr. Palmer?

I do.

That's the building commissioner for the town of Carver. We're honored to have him here again this evening. Good.

But you can have those if you'd like.

No, you're going to take them back because Mr. Palmer is the guy that needs them eventually. Okay? Now, Mr. Poirier asked a good question. That is, you've got a garage on the first level, and the accessory is going to be on the second level above the garage. Is that true?

Yes.

And what's above the accessory? Is there some sort of floor up there that you're going to use for some purpose?

No, it's basically an attic.

And this attic, is it a full floor or is it just a... Like a crawl?

No, it's short.

You wouldn't be able to... Couldn't even walk in there, is that right?

You couldn't, no.

And the height of this accessory is going to be below the peak of the primary residence. Is that true?

Yes, correct. I have those dimensions if you'd like them.

Those are always good to have.

Go. The height of the accessory from the back of the house, which is up higher, is 19 feet 8 inches. The height from the driveway, which is in the front, It's 23.1.

And what's the height of the peak of the roof of the primary residence?

That I do not have.

It would be less than 23 feet 1 inch, correct? It would be more.

I mean, it would be more. The existing home is higher.

It would be higher? Yes. Okay. Thank you. I misspoke.

Mr. Chair, may I ask a question?

You don't have to ask me.

Go. Does Eversource or New England, whatever, Edison like, do they have a required setback for their easement?

Yes.

I don't believe so.

Question again?

So the question I'm asking is they have an easement through your property, correct? Yes. typically with easements you know they they in my experience they usually have a setback that so that they can get equipment or whatever they're doing in that location usually they you know the statute has a setback on that and i'm not sure i believe you could be right it isn't in i think it's like 20 feet or something if i show you the uh And the reason why I'm asking is it looks like part of your ADU and there's a deck off of the rear of it is in within that easement. So I'm just curious to see if they would have any concern about that. That's all.

I don't know that. That little piece that's in is basically a back stairs and porch.

It's not part of the... No, it's still a structure, though, that'll be in that easement area. That's all I'm concerned about. I'd hate to have you build something and if they had to do something, ask you to remove it because it's within their easement. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

So from a common sense approach, it might be a good idea to communicate with the holder of that easement to see whether anything that you're intending or wanting to do might be opposed in the end. You don't want them coming close to the back of your house with big pieces of equipment and disturbing your peace, right?

So it looks like your existing structure, you're like right on that line. That deck crosses a line and gets into the backyard based on what I'm looking at. That's all.

You ever have construction equipment from... Is it Eversource?

Is that what you said?

Yeah, Eversource. You ever have equipment come on there?

Just when they cut the trees down, when they trim. But I've never had any, you know, right. How often do they do that? Five years or so. Five to seven.

Do they come in your backyard? They do. They come right down the backyard.

Okay.

They've gotten much, much better.

There are two towers, and the tower that's closest to our house is one that, I think it's a spare. It's a training. It's energized. And that is, I believe, that when it comes across the back of the house is the outside of the, whatever it is, 20 feet or something from the lines that it goes.

I would just ask that question, that's all. But it's a good question to be asking.

Yeah, just to make sure they don't... Just to protect yourself.

I mean, I don't want you to spend money for nothing.

I mean, we can go ahead and act anyway, one way or the other. But if I were you, I would want to make sure that the holder of that easement is not going to feel as if they're right to enter. and use that property for whatever purpose it sees fit is going to be impaired by the construction of your proposed ADU.

Would Mr. Palmer know anything on restrictions like that?

Well, typically Eversource, the width of their easement with high tension lines is typically 125 foot easement. I'm not sure what yours is. But typically that easement is where structures should not be built. But it's right out to that easement line. Correct. There's no actual... additional setback from that line okay these properties they just have access easement okay they can't build within that easement so is that and thank you for that clarification is that dotted line that's on this plan the inner side of that easement yes

And then the outer part of the easement would be, and I'm just using 125 as a number, would be the backside?

Yeah, it's been a while since I looked at the site plan. Could I take a look at it?

Yeah, please.

It looks like... Because normally it's shown. It looks like the deck invades that easement. Well, that's what I'm saying.

That's why I asked that question, Stephen.

Yeah, so it looks like there's even a shed... So that deck, you may have to rethink that. Within their easement, it's stated that no structures.

But even the fence line on that right side. That goes through the neighbors, goes through that easement as well.

Yeah, that's going to get, yeah.

I mean, even if it gets moved, I'm just saying that.

Yeah, they still have the right to plow.

So if they service you, do they come in from the left? They come in from the back. The back gate.

There's a big gate at the end.

So you leave it for access for them so they're used to, okay.

They usually come to the front door, say we're coming in to cut down all the brush. I mean, all the trees are already gone, so it's just maintenance. Yeah, maintaining. Now it's just maintenance, which is, I'm actually fine because they're all thorns and half of them stick in the dog. So when they come and take all the thorns down, I don't have to deal with it.

That's a good thing.

I'm kind of wondering out loud whether we need to save you from yourselves here. And what I mean by that is whether we should defer making a decision tonight until you communicate with Eversource to let them know what you're doing.

They may not object. However, if you show the plan with that, they may have some discretion with it. And then you're you'd be honed in on that easement not to build that, and it may change your configuration, that's all.

Not to say that you can't try to fit it some other way, just maybe bringing it up a little further. Yeah.

Can I ask one further question?

Your ADU, the setback that you have from the house, Is there a reason why you said it was to give you driveway space? Why is it set back so far into that easement?

Pretty much driveway space. In my home, there's a two-car garage under. We're going to cover over one of them. um for the adu i was kind of hoping to keep the other one oh i see what you're doing so for convenience sake you were trying to keep one of the two stalls got it yeah and also It also covers all the windows on the first floor of my home. It's already covered over my kitchen windows. And at the end now, I kind of wanted to keep the dining room window open so that they have some light on that side of the house as well.

So I would definitely ask Eversource just what you can and can't do because I'd hate to have you.

Because if we voted this tonight and then you found out you had to change it, then you'd have to come back again with your revised plans because you have to build whatever has been submitted that we vote on.

And they have the legal right, as you know, as the holder of an easement, to use that property to maintain whatever equipment that they have out there. They've got the legal right to do this. And that legal right exists in conjunction with your legal right to your own property. So you're kind of sharing that easement, that piece of land there on which the easement rests with Eversource. So I think the members up here raised some very good points. And there's a shed on there too which invades the easement. So you have the shed, you've got It would be the deck.

The deck.

Yeah, you've got a shed and a deck which are clearly within that easement. And now you're going to build further into that easement, it looks like. So...

How long has the shed been where it's located? Roughly. And they've never said anything? I'm not saying they're going to be objective. But you don't know what thing they're going to object to. That's really your point. They may not care about the shed, but for some reason they might just care about the fact that the deck is two feet out into the easement.

Let's say there is a structure in the easement, and when you add a secondary... build onto that. Now you're creating an obstacle for them to try to maneuver around for equipment. The shed may not be an issue for them. When the deck gets on there, their piece of equipment may not be able to maneuver as easily for them. That's all. And they'll tell you instantly whether it's a problem or it's not.

Do you know who it is that I would call them? I don't.

The wires that go across your property, how far back are they in that easement?

From your house. 20 feet.

That's pretty close.

Wow, that's really close.

You don't lose power very often, huh?

I mean, one fix here would be to remove that deck.

But where would you put it? They would need something off of that ADU. Right.

For an egress purpose. I'd just rearrange. If you look on the left side of the ADU, it goes out to a patio.

Yes, I see it.

I could probably put a door there and then make that a solid wall to the back of the house if that was an issue.

Well, it's not an issue to me right now until you talk to Eversource.

Right. If it's an issue with them, then that's what we'll have to rearrange. We'll rearrange the deck furniture, so to speak.

So I get the sense that the consensus is to defer judgment tonight.

To continue.

Yeah, defer judgment tonight, continue this case to allow you an opportunity to speak to Eversource.

Okay.

And what I would suggest for your own protection and also for our own records here, that you get some sort of letter or memo from them saying that they have no issue with you constructing an ADU on your property based upon the plot plan that you show them. And you don't have to show it to them.

Anybody have any idea how and whom that I would... Go online.

I'm sure that there's some sort of contact information that you can get on the Eversource website about questions concerning easements. Okay? I don't have that number. I get a lot of numbers in my head. I don't have that one in my head.

I don't imagine that you're the first person who's ever called about building something that's bumping up against an easement. I'm sure they have to deal with this on a fairly regular basis.

A lot of people in town use the easement as part of their property even.

We're not saying this is going to blow everything up for you by any stretch. Ms. Bonetto.

I know. Breathe. It's all good. It's all good.

But we want to make sure that you're not getting involved in a project that is going to end up causing you problems. When are you looking to begin construction?

As soon as I can.

Well, it's going to have to wait for a little while until you get this squared away.

Yeah, I understand.

The suggestion would be while we're delaying to the next meeting, gives them time to get the answers. What if we did a site visit? And then we'd have a better picture of exactly where everything is, how close to the tree line.

The survey is coming out. Can he stake out the ADU? Could he put stakes in the ground or where the proposed ADU is going?

Yeah, in fact, stake the amount.

I mean, I'd take a right of it.

He's got that blank look on his face.

No, I'm looking at Ms. Dahl.

It's all good with me.

What's all good with you?

To do that, to go do a site visit.

Mr. Poirier has a very busy schedule. What about you, Mr. Poirier? Depends on the day of the week. Why do we need to do a site visit?

Just to get a visual. I mean, I can see what's going on here. You don't have to. No.

Yeah, I'm just suggesting, since we're going to have a delay anyways, to get a better picture. Do you want a site visit?

Yes or no?

I would like to go see.

Okay, it's the custom of this board that if one of us wants a site visit, we all go. So blame this guy here. All right, so we're going to come up now with two dates. Before we do, do you have anything else you want to add?

My neighbors are here.

Yeah, we'll hear from them. But do you have anything else you want to add at this point?

As far as I'm concerned, no. Okay.

Mrs. Spinetto.

I'm breathing.

Good, good. Breathing is good. All right.

Oh, I do have one question.

Yes.

So as soon as the surveyor comes out, then do we get in touch with you and let us know that everything's all staked out so you don't waste your trip coming? Come out for nothing?

CALL THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT DOWNSTAIRS AND LET THEM KNOW IT'S ALL STAKED OUT AND READY TO ROCK AND ROLL. NOW, USUALLY WE HAVE ONE MEETING A MONTH. OKAY? SO THAT OUGHT TO GIVE YOU PLENTY OF TIME TO GET IT STAKED OUT FOR US. OKAY? AND USUALLY WE COME IN THE MORNINGS LIKE ON A SATURDAY. IF IT'S LATE MORNING, THEN YOU PROVIDE THE PIZZA. If it's early, the coffee and the donuts. I'm teasing. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Okay. So you do have some stakes out there already.

I do have a stake out there. Just one.

Just... Okay, so we would like to see the four corners.

I'll take care of that.

Okay, the four corners. That one ought to be easy. And again, when you contact Eversource, see if you can get some sort of memo from them saying that they have no issue with the proposed construction. And they're not going to be able to say yes or no until they see a copy of the plot plan. So you're going to have to be prepared to give them a copy of that. So they know what they're saying, yes or no, too.

Correct.

Okay. Now there are some people here that may want to speak as to this particular petition. Is there anyone here? Yes, sir. What is your name?

Joseph.

Joseph what? I didn't hear. What's your last name, Joseph? Can you spell that?

A-N-E-U-S.

Okay, Joseph.

Come up a little closer, please. Yeah. That's good.

Close enough. I can be shallow or really loud.

Go ahead. Or in between.

My concerns are the variance that they require.

How does that impact if I have any future plans?

Well, what side of the property are you on? I'm on the right. So we're facing their house.

So you're on the other side of the trees? Yeah. Okay.

So you have some future plans?

If I did, I'd like to know because

Well, any future, you have to have a 30-foot setback with whatever you do, right? That's the bylaw in town. So whatever you decide to do, you've got to stay 30 feet away from their line. Now, his problem is, what he wants to do is not 30 feet away from your line. So he needs 8.4 feet relief from us. Because he's a little too close to you. He likes you, by the way, but he's a little bit too close.

My question is, is that by granting this 88 foot, 8.4 feet, I need a future variance.

It doesn't hurt you at all. It doesn't. It doesn't hurt me. No, no, your case would be your case. Your property line is in the same spot where it's always been. It just means that his construction would be less than 30 feet from where that line is.

On his property. It has nothing to do with your property.

Nothing to do with you. Now, also, there's a fence line. I'm a VP. You trust that or not? It is like 20 feet off of my property. My property exceeds the fence block.

That'll be addressed from what I was told.

So he said that they're going to move the fence to where it should be properly?

Take it down and move it, yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

The surveyor, after I talked to you the other day, I called my surveyor and he's coming out next week and he's going to stake off the whole thing so we know where to put the fence. And when that's done, I'm going to go 10 inches my side of that line.

I just want things right so they don't cut my off. Right.

No, that's fair. That's a fair ask.

We understand.

No, that's totally fair.

Was there anything else? Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Joseph. Anyone else want to be heard on this? Okay. Anything further from any of the board members?

No, no.

So I think the next order of business, unless the petitioner has anything further to add, would be to schedule... Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Unfortunately, this whole fence thing, that fence has been there for over 15 years. We all were just aware of all this when we started this project. So we deeply didn't know.

We don't hold that against you.

It happens when the original survey lines are off, and you're not the first person in town that's gone through that. Trust me.

And you're rectifying the issue, so that's fine.

No problem. We don't hold it against you.

No.

All right, so we need two dates. We need a date for our next regular meeting, and then we need a date for Mr. Barrington's site visit. So I think we're looking probably towards the end of July. Mr. Poore, do you have your phone out? Somewhere.

July 23rd? No. Is it Thursday? The last week of July is not good for me.

It's not the last week.

27th is. Oh, let me take a look. Okay. Hold on a second.

This is why he has to get his phone out.

He's going on a cruise again.

No, no cruise. Hurry up, would you? I think the 23rd is okay.

I've got to double check. What day of the week is that? Thursday. Okay, so July 23. And let's decide as well on a date for the site visit. We should be closer to the 23rd than... Not, because you're going to have to get your surveyor out and you're going to have to stake it and so forth.

Saturday the 18th.

Saturday the 18th. Does that work for you, Mr. Poirier?

Yes.

Mr. Poirier? Hold on one second.

Let me just double check there.

This guy's schedule is busier than mine.

18th is fine. Okay. Do you have anything? That's a Saturday. Somebody will be around.

Hold on just a minute, Mr. Berryman. That's a Saturday, right? So what time of morning would you folks like for the 18th?

4.30, too early?

Yeah. No joke.

Good answer. Why don't we say 9 o'clock? 9 o'clock.

That's July.

All right, so July 18th at 9, we're going to go out and visit you. And on July 23, we will reconvene in these quarters. And hopefully you'll be able to provide us with some sort of communication, written, not verbal, from Eversource. And also a survey plan.

What kind of puppets do you like?

Just keep them under $50. That's right. Exactly. I'm a general manager of James Dinah, so I... Oh, okay. Okay, does anybody have anything else? No, I'm good. All right, so I think we can move on. Let's vote to continue the case to July 23rd. Let's do that vote first. Do I hear a motion? So moved. Second? Second. All in favor? Aye. And let's do a vote to do a site visit on July 18th at 9 a.m. Do I hear a motion? So moved. Second? Second. All in favor? Aye. So we are squared away. You know what you got to do, right? Shouldn't be difficult. And any questions, you can coordinate with the building commissioner who sits behind you or any of the nice ladies in the planning department.

She is a nice lady.

Well, there's three of them down there.

The lady in the zoning office is very patient.

Good. That's nice to hear. Very good. Nice to see you both tonight. Thank you. See you in a month.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

All right.

Okay, we have another matter on the agenda for this evening. Okay. This is case number 17-28-0-R. The property location is 18 Brockton Avenue. And Mr. Barrington, could you read the public hearing notice into the record?

Case 17-28-0R, Petitioner Raquel Feria, requesting a special permit pursuant to section 290-2-2.5-D, also 290-5-2.2-A, and 290-5-3.3 of the Carver Zoning Bylaw for property located at 18 Brockton Avenue in Carver, Mass. Assessors map 17, lot 28-0-R so as to reconstruct and extend the legal nonconforming nature of said single family dwelling in the residential agricultural district.

Very good. Thank you, Mr. Barrington. And I observe that the petitioner is present. You may approach. Before I turn this over to the rest of the board, I have a couple of quick questions. The home that you're intending to build there, is short on frontage how many feet so it's currently 16 feet you're short 16 feet you only have 16 feet um it's

From the street to the...

I don't know if you can see this. Is this what you're looking at? Yes. Mr. Palmer, could you take a look at what you're doing? Because I'm going to want... I want to know if they're short on frontage and also short on sideline dimension. So they are. I want to know how many feet.

I don't see a dimensional set.

Yeah, and I didn't either. That's why I'm inquiring.

So I think the intent is that the footprint is in the same position that the original house was. I believe the applicant has an as-built from the original house.

Do you have an as-built from the original?

I do. It's the floor.

Because the original was short on the left, short on the right. And was it short in the front as well, Mr. Palmer? Yes. But okay in the back?

Yes.

Okay. So those three dimensions did not meet bylaw guidelines. Current bylaw. That's correct. Guidelines. And you have an as-built plan, do you?

Yes, I submitted it.

You don't have one with you, right? Mr. Palmer, would that be in your file back in the office?

It was submitted, yes.

Okay, he says it was. So, just want to make sure.

It would have been under the first permit that they pulled, probably. Yeah.

Yeah, I required a site plan for the original building permit application. Yeah.

Okay. Now, we know from last month's meeting that although it would appear that this home that you're now building is within the same footprint, right, Mr. Palmer, within the same footprint, the shape is different. The box is different. You now have, get my notes out. The configuration is different. Yes. Yeah, you now have a roof. The original home did not have a rooftop deck. But the building permit that was issued recently by Mr. Palmer included that rooftop deck because it was within the previously approved scope and setbacks. But the addition you want to do was not approved. That was a new piece of this construction. Is that true, Mr. Palmer?

So the original building permit was to do a renovation on the existing wall to include a rooftop deck. And that application met the...

Yes.

the requirements of our zoning bylaws.

Yes.

I don't believe that the actual shape of or the footprint of the new structure is different than the old.

Yes.

I believe the reason that we're here today is because they razed the building. The building was essentially razed in its entirety and rebuilt. That cannot happen without a special department. And that is what brought the applicants to the board today.

The question that I was asking, though, is the original house had no addition. You're intending to build an addition to the original house?

No, sir. They're just adding a roof deck. The only thing we have is the square footage of the building is no more than it is today.

So they just changed the internals. So they're trying to put a kitchen where the living room used to be.

Yeah, internal, yeah.

Okay. And did you approve the newer...

The renovation?

The new renovation with the kitchen? I did. You did?

I have no jurisdiction over how somebody designed it.

Designed the inside. That doesn't matter. Right. Right.

But...

Again, the house was raised without being approved or without them approaching you and letting you know what happened. That's right.

So if you have a home and you want to raise it in its entirety and it's legally not conforming, that requires a special permit.

A special permit.

And we know it's not conforming based upon the configuration of the lot.

Yeah, and the existing conditions.

Well, the dimensions, the dimensions on the sides.

Yep.

Okay.

Ms. Dahl and gentlemen. Okay, so I have a few kind of statements, questions. Last time we were here, we talked about soil erosion and correcting that situation. And I assume that was before this meeting happened. took place, I drove by today, I did see kind of a silt attached to the metal fence that was there that's tipped over, which in my mind, you're still gonna get stuff draining right underneath it, so that really didn't mitigate.

Sorry, but we didn't put any silt fence yet. They're the stop work wear, so we didn't step on the property. We have the silt fence, but we did not put anything up.

Okay, there's some black covering.

There was that from the beginning.

So nothing has been done to mitigate.

So to your point, the engineer record for the civil was going to propose a recommended So mechanism to catch any of that. Was that done?

Yes. So I contacted Outback Engineering on May 28. And I spoke with Jason Youngquist, which is a civil engineer. And he also contacted Ron Palmer to verify all the information. We do have the plans right here. If you want to take a look, may I step forward?

And the reason they didn't install it yet, because it's a stock. Technically. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Palmer, have you seen this plan?

I have.

Can I ask a question? On the silt fence, why would that not be permissible prior to any other hearing just for the watershed, I guess?

I can't answer that. It sounds like the applicant had reservations about going to the property while there was a software order.

Okay. it just like with that but if she had brought these to you would you have allowed the stop order to be lifted uh it really would have come to me that i'm not going to probably that was their that was their project okay i've worked with jason and he's pretty good yeah okay

i can i can tell you that i had a in-depth conversation with jason and i explained to him i sort of articulated what your concerns were i also talked to him about being responsible and doing a site visit during the construction of this permanent erosion control so i think if you look at that document that you have you'll see if you have a right-hand corner the lower paragraph And there will be an inspection done after everything is ready as well.

Does that inspection and that site visit include the restoration that's going to be needed to the adjacent neighbors?

I'm not sure. All I can say is this plan that they created was to ensure the stabilization on both sides to prevent any further erosion.

But it was my understanding some of the neighbors, not only the fencing, but some of the neighbors experienced some of the silt runoff onto their property. So that restoration more than likely will, I would like to see it included as part of the... So Barry is saying, you know, before, I mean, it doesn't make any sense to do it until you restore what they had, you know?

I agree.

That was some of the neighbor's concerns, if you remember.

Yeah, one in particular, and I observed the gentleman to be present tonight. Sure. What else would you like to say?

I also contacted John Woods from DPW. I contacted him as well on May 28, but he wasn't in. He was on vacation.

So he answered me on June 1.

And I have the email as well, because I just requested him to have it in writing, which he states that, after our conversation this morning, I took a ride to Brockton Avenue. The road is in OK shape. It definitely needs some potholes patched, which I will have done. But other than that, I did not see anything that should cause any safety issues. Please reach out if you need to discuss this further. That's all we have.

Let's make that email part of the record. Absolutely.

It's my understanding that's a private way anyway.

Yeah, is that a private road?

Is it accepted by the town?

Yeah, I don't know. The town maintains it. It isn't a private road. The town maintains it. They do the bombing. They do the maintenance of it.

That does not sound like a private road.

Yeah, but it's something that they take care of because there's enough people down there to take care of it.

Continuing on with some notes that I've made, I went on your website, Boston Dream Group, And you talk a lot about professionalism and doing high quality work and all of that stuff. So that brings me back to what I said last time was how did we not find these issues before buying the property or right afterwards and then you inspect and say, uh-oh, we can't rebuild it the way we wanted to.

We can't imagine, we can't see inside the walls. It's just, it is what it is. So we have our reputation, and if you look up reviews and everything, but I can't see inside the walls. It's real limited. So I wish we could help better. I wish we could just, you know, see it, but some of the areas, if you look at it, the first that we have, it was just discovered after the Bible was ripped out, and now the stair walls, you know, nothing we could have done.

There was no way to get underneath the building prior, like when you looked at it.

So the major structural issues that you found

were discovered when you took the walls down? Is that what you're saying?

And the floors? Yup.

So the joists were shot. Was coming up with it.

Can I ask you just a question? Why you didn't just stop right then before you ripped it up and go talk to Mr. Palmer and just say, hey, I got a problem. I mean, I get it. You're totally trying to have a business.

I mentioned on the last meeting, so it was on Saturday when we took the demolition. But there's a Monday after. I know, there was a Monday after. Call me. But like I said, it was on Saturday, and then I came by the job, and I looked at everything, and I ran by, and my guys were working on Sunday, and I didn't know. I talked to my man who was late on, and that was when the demolition was way too quick. They just stacked work. But I took the blame. I was supposed to be there, but I didn't. Would I have told you on Sunday? I couldn't make it. And then they were there working on Sunday, and then one day he called me, and I was surprised as well. The same as he was.

So, I'm going to make sure I got this straight. Are you saying that by Monday that the house had substantially been taken down?

So your crew took it down Sunday?

Gotcha. Who gave the crew direction to take it down? Well, there's no direction. So when you had a suit contract, it was full. You know, we built the addition in the back and took the whole roofing. That's why we got the permit for it. But he just said, in his imagination, that's why I have a tax email with him and I exchanged an email because... Not at this point because of him, but I took the blame because it's my father's fault.

Are you the responsible party for the construction? Who pulled the permit? Yeah. So ultimately, it doesn't matter who you hired. It could have been Sammy. You're ultimately responsible. I know. Okay. You know, whether he thought it was the right thing to do or not.

I'm not blaming him. I'm just explaining what happened. And unfortunately, he did. He thought it was way faster. Does he still work for you? He's with his imagination. But I told him, we've got to stop and talk to do this right now and see when he wants to do it. But, you know, that's not what happened.

Mr. Palmer, when did you issue the stop work order?

It was on Tuesday, October 21st. Yeah, he called me Monday, October 20th, and he said, you've got to stop, and that's what I told him. You've got to get out of there and stop the work.

But my question is, and it was my understanding, you didn't reach out to him. He reached out to you because he got a complaint from a neighbor. Would the, and my concern is, would your crew have continued working? You can't say no because he issued and not stopped work on it. That's why they said no. When you saw it Monday or you got whatever happened, the only reason you... you came in contact with him was because he had issues.

No, I was on my way to the project to check on the job and then he called me and said, yeah, I'm on the way to meet you. That's why I met him after 20 minutes.

I understand that, but you only met him because there was a problem.

No, I was driving down to the project to check on the project. So I didn't know until then.

I was surprised that... When did you get notified that there was a problem? He was that one. Of Monday?

And what time did you end up meeting?

Did you visit? Before noon. Before noon. Did you visit the site when you got the complaint first, obviously?

I received the complaint at home call. And then within an hour or two, I wrote it down. Okay.

And his crew was still there at that point? Yes.

Mr. Barrington, continue. I'm sorry.

That's OK. We've kind of answered or made a few points. So you're the purchaser of the property, and you're the builder. okay because i again you have a website advertising your company i went online and i saw you showing the house and and what your hopes and plans were uh for it and you know it sounded like this was going to be good until we ran into this wall um that we're all discussing right now so

It's probably a little unfortunate that you put it up there for sale as all said and done before you had all your permits and stuff issued as well.

Yeah, no, it was only we were going to, if someone wanted it, it would be finished. Like, we would go through this process anyways.

Like the roof of this. Yeah. Yeah. It was just pre-advertised.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm good.

Mr. Poirier?

Pretty much everything that we've discussed are things that we've missed all.

Mr. Sullivan? I'm good right now. So there was a question that we entertained when we were last in session. And it is what to do with what appears to be a clear violation of the scope of the permit that was issued in this particular case. And you know that the bylaw allows us to enact a penalty in situations such as this. So I want to kind of take a poll of the board and get a feel for whether or if you folks feel that that's appropriate in this situation. And if so, what sort of penalty you have in mind. Mr. Barrington as Vice Chair will lead with you.

I do believe a penalty should be assessed. There was a lot of time in between when it was taken down and the stop work order. I just think there was a number of violations that was included that occurred. And I'm, for a dollar amount, easily a thousand plus. In my mind. Without getting down to nitty gritty, let's count the exact number of days.

Right.

And X number of dollars for every single day. I want to be careful that whatever a financial penalty might be, that we don't kill the project altogether and then we're stuck with a monstrosity sitting there. But I also think we need to, again, make sure that rules are followed, policies, and that people are doing the right thing and not trying to circumvent. So that's my thought on the matter.

Ms. Dahl, your thoughts, please.

I say I feel the same way. I feel that you really should have just stopped when you hit the floor and just sent everybody home and got a hold of him first. I get it. I mean, I own a business, too. I get it. Stuff happens. People work for you. Ultimately, you're responsible. But still, there's rules. And if we don't follow the rules, then why bother, right? And, yeah, I do feel that you should pay a financial penalty for it because... Again, you've been in business since like 21. I think I looked up online. So it's not like it's your first property. It's not your first flip, whether you live there in some of the previous flips you've done or someone else. So it's stuff that you guys should know. So it's just not cool to kind of go around him because we need him to keep everything going in a good direction.

Do you have a number in mind, Ms. Dahl?

I would say more than $1,000, yeah. Because otherwise you could be fined $300.

What is the minimum bylaw? What is the minimum penalty per day? And what is the maximum?

Like $300 a day. Minimum? Yeah, minimum. For like every day that you're in violation.

So what is the maximum? Longer than two days.

Yeah, three days.

But the verbal, when you stop by on Monday, it requires two days. But, you know, put on the paper, it's Tuesday.

Mr. Poirier. Well, I guess to be honest with you, after the last time, I didn't have quite as clear of a timeline as I got today. And what I heard makes me feel... a little bit better about how this kind of went down. But, you know, we've had other petitioners who have had things that are outside the scope of the bylaw, and people need to know that that can't be allowed to happen. So, I mean, I'm I probably would be in agreement with Jim somewhere in that vicinity, I guess, once we decide. I don't know if we have an exact number of days at this point.

It depends on whether we want to get into the weeds and calculate an exact number of days or whether we just want to impose a penalty. It would be within... That's what we're allowed to do.

Okay.

And it is $300 a day. This project, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, was basically abandoned between October and when you came and filed your request for a special permit. So that's months. Nothing happened out there.

Yeah, it was winter. There was nothing that could be done because the step deck needs to be installed before the house is built. Yep. And we haven't even had the septic yet because the land was too, like, hard.

Yeah, they couldn't do it.

Yeah, they couldn't do it.

Yeah, they're not going to allow a septic to go until you have a building plan with the building department. I mean, that's typical. They're not just going to put a septic system in a vacant lot.

So is your septic system in now?

No, they haven't even put it in yet.

So you started building without...

No, we have. The septic plan was approved and everything, but they have not installed the septic.

But you started building.

No, we have not started building.

I drove by today. There's walls.

I mean, so you started rebuilding.

Yeah, we started rebuilding.

We put up the wall. Once we're done with roofing, we wrap it up, and then we come into the second. So we have everything on the schedule.

The sequence, and this is where I'm having a hard time with everything right now. There was a permit pulled for renovation with a proposed deck addition on the roof. Your crew came in, they tore down, they tore apart the building for the renovation. Was there a new foundation put in place?

It was a partial foundation replacement slash repair on the back of the house. Okay, so that... The same footprint.

All right, so that was put in place where you discovered the floor being, or the support mechanism, the structure, not being able to support it The crew tore that apart. And what were they doing when Mr. Palmer visited?

So this whole back here, so we took out this whole back here. And with excavation, and the footing was inspected, and we did the walls. And only the back. And after we did the back, we raised it, the whole back, and we came to the front.

So those walls that you saw standing, was it was on the... inspected footings and foundations of that section. The pot came into question was when they took down the entire structure and started doing the front. What work was, when you get on site, what were they doing?

On October 21st, they were voiding the roof or finishing the rafters.

And what was going on with the front of the, was the spot that was knocked down, was it reconstructed already?

going. It's the applicant. Sometimes I'll get a call once a week. Sometimes I'll get a call for six months later. So in this particular case, I had done an inspection of a partial foundation replacement slash repair on the back of the house. That was my last Now, I had received a number of complaints from neighbors about erosion, so there were site visits that I made, not to do a building inspection, but to look at the erosion, the concerns of the neighbors. So that was my only actual building inspection. On October 21st, I received a phone call that the house was razed and rebuilt. So I went out there on Monday morning, and when I went out there Monday morning, all of the walls, the main building, was reconstructed. New floor system, new walls, and they were, at that time, constructing the roof. I don't think there was plywood on the roof, or there may be some plywood, but most of the rafters, I think, were in. And that is when I placed a stock worker or a quarter on the project.

So to clarify, just so, you know, because I'm running into a wall, the area that they tore down and brought upright, what was that bearing on?

I think just, you know, it was an old house built in the 1940s or 50s maybe.

So piers?

Yeah, mostly pier footings or piers on top of cylinder footings or just...

So when you, and I'm just going off of what you said where the walls and they were putting on the roof, but the front area that was supposed to remain, was that, any work done to that?

LBL. Carry and beam, yeah. Yeah, so I think that was in before they decided to raise the remainer.

So I'm going to ask you now, when did that occur? So, like the footings.

So, yeah. Concrete has to secure before you put a carrying beam on it. So, it wasn't... It happened together with the back. Everything together. When they spec the foundation in the back, they spec the front. So, what do you mean they inspect the front? Yeah, the front footings because we add that in the pyramid.

That wasn't going to be removed, though. How could it be inspected?

Yeah, no. We removed the bottom and then we just support it so to put footings on it because there was no footing in the front.

As a construction supervisor, any inspection of footings would have to be done by the building commissioner to verify that it- And it was inspected?

They were done.

They were done?

Yeah. Just a hole.

Just a hole. A hole in the cylinder. So, I'm done.

We have taken a poll of everyone on this board but you. What would you like to see happen here?

Being in this career, you get held accountable for issues that arise, and that's part of your ownership of having a construction supervisor's license. The training, the classes, all of the education you get, it's to minimize an impact of this nature. I haven't been through it, and I've been through enough zoning board hearings to understand there are repercussions and responsibilities held by the construction supervisor. I'm going to leave it up to the board. I think an infraction happened and there needs to be accountability. That's all. Do you have a number in mind? I'll go along with whatever the board decides.

Let's take a look at the bigger issue, which is a special permit is being requested at this point so the construction can continue and eventually finish. Is that true, Ms. Ferry?

Yes, that's true. I want that done just so the neighbors don't have to deal with this for the next two years as well.

Before we go any further, there are people in the audience that might like to be heard. Does anyone have any comment or comments they would like to make or questions they'd like to ask?

Yeah.

Identify yourself, please.

Scott Hanson, 20 Broughton Ave. I'm standing in front of my father.

Okay, and you are right next door or across?

Right next door on the right-hand side is the face of the building.

Go ahead. We've had a lot of rain lately. What's been happening out there?

The erosion is still coming down. I've seen they had it surveyed a little different than we thought to, because up in the back, the fence is actually on their property. So that we've got to address with them, however they want to work that out. But up in the front, there's more property loss. So the fence is on the property now, and there's erosion on that side more. So my concern is I want them to finish. I want them to get through this. I want them to get it done. What do we have on the drawing that's going to protect our property from erosion going down there? That's all I want. If we have something in writing that you guys have on this drawing, I'm all for it. Let them continue. As long as I have something to cover us, at the end of the day, this is all inspected, and let's take it. Let's go there now and put Silsak up there, protect it so it don't fall down there anymore. And if there's going to be a wall there later, I'm all for it. Let them move forward. I appreciate your time.

You bet. Anyone else like to be heard on this?

What's your name? Judy. Yes. I live at 13 Brockton Ave. I live across the street.

I remember you. Yes. Yes. Go ahead, Judy.

So, I don't know, maybe I'm being too kind or too nice, but, you know, I think they get it. I think they know they made a big mistake. But I also do think that let's try to figure out how to get the project going. I'm not trying to break any laws or anything like that, but just to kind of

If at all possible. Okay. Okay. Unless somebody else has something they want to say. Mr. Palmer, do you have any final remarks? I do not. I think we all understand that there are certain local laws by which we must abide. And if we don't, then these laws allow for certain repercussions to occur in our discretion. So if we don't follow the laws, if we don't follow the rules, and I think we all understand that in order to do a project of this kind, you have to have the appropriate permit when you decided that you would need to do something different by way of your construction. That is to say, no longer a renovation, but a total rebuild. That required a special permit. And you folks should have been aware of that. You can't plead ignorance. People who sign or request a building permit have to live by what is issued by the building commissioner. And if they don't, as I said, there are potential repercussions that have to be paid, potentially. So I don't think anybody on this board is looking to bankrupt you by imposing a penalty. But I'm the one person that hasn't weighed in on this just yet. Everybody else has. And I'm inclined to agree that these rules are in place for a reason. These bylaws are in place for a reason. These are the laws of the town of Carver. These are our laws. And in this case, they were broken. either intentionally or negligently or recklessly they were broken and you say maybe you weren't quite aware but you should have been because the building code says that if you pull the permit you're responsible for the work that's being done so i'm inclined to agree as well that there probably should be something that we do in this case to recognize that work was done here well beyond the scope of what was allowed, that this work was being done and would still be continuing today perhaps had there not been complaints from neighbors. In other words, you didn't say, after encountering the structural deficiencies in this building, you didn't say, okay, well, we've got to stop right now. Can't go any further. We have to figure this out. And you should have made a beeline to Mr. Palmer's office. So, yes, I'm inclined to agree that there should be something done here but we're not looking to squelch or kill the project either. So speaking just for myself I'm inclined to grant you the special permit that you need but there are going to be conditions attached to this and I'd like to get a sense of the board as to what conditions they'd like to see in the event that we decide

to grant the special permit which is what you're requesting now correct yes okay let's start with ms doll what condition or conditions would you like to see well i'd like to see the i mean it's such tight borders down there and i drove down there today to see exactly where the project stood like just the way that everything is kind of torn apart you're going to have to like Be responsible to do something to protect your neighbors on both sides.

And what would that be? What do you want to see?

They recommend that you do to keep the dirt back. I mean, obviously, you're going to cut down, whether it's retaining walls on your own self or...

So we do less time.

So we have, as I said, we already have the silt fence. Once Building Commissioner authorizes us to step on the property, we will put up the silt fence during construction. After it's done, there will be, as you guys can see on both sides, there will be a drenching chain. drainage trench yeah on both sides done and it will be inspected after construction but the drainage can only be done after the house is done