Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

will be videotaped and rebroadcasted by Area 58 TV. If you could all please stand for the flag to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Good evening everyone. We have a minor modification uh of an ANR to the approved lot lines of an application concerning assesses map 122-2 and 5-1 located at Mayflower Road cover mass in the residential agricultural zoning district. Uh this item has been removed from the agenda at the request of the applicant. He will be resubmitting so we won't be hearing on this tonight. Uh the next item on the agenda will be discussion on the MBTA zoning bylaw discussion with the Barrett group whom we have here with us this evening. Judy Barrett and forgive me Lily.

Lily, thank you. So um there have been some discussions regarding some options that are available to us that we had previously discussed areas. Yes, Valerie. If I may, I just wanted to mention that we were able to get a a second technical assistance grant. We'd mentioned it in one of the previous planning board meetings and so we're pleased to be able to re-engage with Barrett Group to talk about the u the MBTA districts and this is our first meeting with them since um a long time ago and so we're excited that they're here.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you for your assistance. um you know we had a discussion about the MBTA um zoning bylaw and also a dis further discussion about the 40R and whether or not that would benefit us. Um I've asked someone to attend the meeting tonight and I would like him to come up and speak um invite him to come up and speak Mr. Alan Germaine because he was instrumental in having the discussion with the town administrator that we had, you know, a conversation about the 40R. So, if you wouldn't mind if I we could allow him to speak and then, you know, go over to the MBTA and the and the possibility of a 40R.

Sure, that's totally that would be fine. Mr. Germaine,

yes, I'll sign it. Helen Germaine 24 Pine Street. This all started after town meeting when thank God the town voted no on the MBTA mandate overwhelmingly. And it got me to thinking because eventually inevitably we're going to have to do something. So, like in your personal lives, if you decide to go on vacation, you come up with an idea and you go to your better half and you say, "Hey, what do you think about this?" And they say, "This is a really stupid idea." Or they say, "That's a great idea." Same whether you're going to paint your house a different color, buy a buy a new car, you know, it's an idea. Everything that happens is an idea. So that being said, I went to Art Bordon because I know that his client owns the property behind Noria. And I simply asked Art, which who he was, his client was not treated very well by this board when he came here. But I asked Art, is this client going to build something? Simple question. and he said absolutely with or without the planning board's blessings which means you know whatever it means. So I said would he entertain a discussion to turn that area behind Noria into a 40R project which is combination residential and commercial. Town has a lot of leeway in that. we'd have to have town meeting approve a zoning area for that. Um, but it can be a win-win for everybody because there's a lot of grant money that comes along with it. And I reached out and if I

could pass this out. If you could hand it over here, please. Excuse me. Hand it to our town planner, please. I can't give it to you. No, that would be I'm going to give it to you. Knock it off, will you? Trying to give you an idea. Thank you, God Almighty. You'll never change. Read it. Don't read it. I don't care what you do.

Thank you, Mr. Durant. Thank you, sir. Thanks, sir. Alan, do you have an extra one? Um, me. Did you get one? No. Oh, I apologize. Okay. Apolog.

Thank you. Anyway, that's an email from Kelly Duner's office because I reached out to her and this is what I got back. And there's a little wording in there that talks about a 40s. A 40s is awesome because a 40s and our planners should certainly know this. A 40s means that the state will reimburse that project for the net cost of the students going to the school system. Now, the big problem we have with housing in this town is what's it going to do with our infrastructure, schools, public safety, so on and so forth. God forbid if it becomes a 40B, then we get nothing except the overall cost. So Art reached out to his client. His client said, "This is a great idea. I'd love to do that." I then got a hold of the chair and I got a hold of Glen Cannon because again, we're just playing with an idea here. And I invited the chair and Glenn to a meeting with Art Bordon. I was there. And the developer, real nice guy. He doesn't sell the paper. He doesn't sell the properties. He builds it. He keeps it. And my personal opinion is I was taken taken away by this guy. He wants to work with the town. Now, there's an alternative. I think what we need to get really understood here is that something is going behind Noria. So once you get past all of the permits and the what are you building and what kind of control are we going to have on

it? Once you get past all of that, you have to realize something's going there. So this really started with Middlebar voting no on the MBTA Communities Act and then them creating a 40R district and the state deeming Middle in compliance without ever accepting it. And that's the key. We can we can be found in compliance with MBTA if that is the end result. But after never having accepted the MBTA, we're not subject to their whims five years from now when they decide they made a mistake and here's new legislation because it was never accepted. We're not married to it. Rochester is trying to do the exact same thing. I don't know where they are in that process. Glenn's familiar with it because they were trying to do it when he was there. And um perhaps Valerie is it I'm sorry.

Yes. Perhaps Valerie would know of other towns that have tried to do it. Is it successful? I don't know. Is it worth exploring? Absolutely. It's it's a it's 30 acres of land behind Noria. He'll put in his own well. He has no problem doing that. His own uh water treatment system. He'll put in his own sewer system. And he'll petition Middlebar to see if he can buy water. and Middlebar is provided they have enough water to service their own and this is a quote we're in the business of selling water. So if his needs are such that Middle can meet them then Middlebar will connect him just like Middle approved and will is willing to connect the car wash. Now, that didn't happen uh because there was intervention from the North Caba water district, but the owner was okay with it and Middlebar was okay with it, but the North Cab district didn't like the fee. So, this guy's still working on a well, but so this is what's down the road in the future. if they were to be and and a initial drawing shows 240 units plus a L-shaped commercial structure similar to Connorstone's plaza which would be the first thing you'd see and then the housing behind it. Um when you think about where it's located and the logistics of it, it's on the other side of 44. So my guess would be unless someone's going to wear him, they're going to get on 44. If they're going down the Cape or if they're going shopping, they go to Shaws, they'll go to CVS. You're not going to get this massive influx of

traffic that we would have had, God forbid, something happened with West Street that you'd have up there because it's right on the highway. What better place? What better place for it if we have to put up something like that? And and the inevitability of it is is something is going to eventually be built in this town. We've got 80 acres sitting down the street and who knows what's going to happen with that and there's a lot of other land that's available too. So, you know, the other thing with 40R is 20% of those units have to be deemed affordable. And that goes that would help us with our inventory to get us up to the 10 or whatever that magic number is for affordability. So, this could check off a ton of boxes. Please correct me ladies if I'm wrong in any of this conversation. Um, that could check off a ton of boxes and we'd have a developer that's willing to work with us and we could work with then a commercial corner as well as the housing. I I I just um I have real hard time understanding the downside of it all. But like I said, it's up to you guys. Um this has to be something that the planning board puts through for a zoning change. The select board has to be on a in agreement with it. They have not been involved to this point. This is nothing more than an idea. That's all this is right now. It's just a thought that's had some limited discussion. And we thought it was a good idea speaking with Mary, we thought it was a good idea now to bring it to everybody because, you know, time is of the essence. So, and I know that Costa would like to get started sooner than later. He's had that property for paying taxes on it for five, I think I'd said five or six years. He's been paying taxes on that

property. So, you know, better that he should want to work with the town and have this be a winwin for everyone than to have [snorts] him take an adversarial role like what happened in Plimpmpton where the planning board got mean and nasty and there's 6040B units going in and all that guy wanted to do is put a material yard in there and recycle stuff in an industrial industrial zone district. So now Plimpmpton is sitting back saying, "What are we going to do about these 60 units?" Well, there's nothing they can do about the 60 units cuz he went to the state, right?

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen on behind Noria, but that's always an option. And you know, we've seen that come up with Edville and the possibility of the only reason that Edville didn't go through is because the numbers didn't work. They wanted a friendly 40B at 346 units because when you did all the math, the numbers didn't work, right? The state would have given him 200, but you couldn't make the numbers work for 200 units. So, that's it.

Thank you, Mr. Germaine. Um, we did discuss that briefly with with Judy and her group and I think that she may have some information about that tonight together with the other properties that we had initially discussed on the MBTA matter. Um, so I I just wanted to have him explain where this came from. Sure.

Yeah. And I also just Madam Chair, if I may, one more thing. Um, I don't want anyone thinking that this is a backroom deal or anything. There's been no assumptions made. There's been none of this made. This has been nothing more than a casual discussion between me and a friend of mine. Art Bordon is a dear friend of mine and and just bouncing around some ideas and then it kind of went from there to the next step. So I didn't ever think it was appropriate to just have this idea come up before the planning board and say, "Hey, what do you think about this?" Not having any facts, figures, numbers, anything to go on. So, there has been no um wink wink, we can get this done for you. There's been none of that cuz I don't believe in that. This should be transparent. And all I've done now is is bring the cart and the horse kind of together and now it's entirely up to this board um where it goes from here. You can sit back and say we don't want to even consider it and then he'll take the next step, whatever that might be. But I do know for a fact something is going to be built behind Noria. I think we know that because he came in front of us and I probably wasn't very pleasant to him and he made it quite clear that he wanted to build there and I asked him, you know,

to read the room. He's built down the Cape. He's built north of Boston and every single thing he builds he keeps. He doesn't sell any of it. He's not looking to get approvals and sell the paper, which I think is what was going to happen at Eville. Um he what he buys he keeps. This is him and his brother and it's they're young guys and they're in this for the long haul. This is for his kids according to what he said. So, well, we do know he he is going to build there and in a perfect world. It would be nice if we could kind of kill two birds with one stone. I don't know if that's possible, but that's what Judy can provide information on. I'd much rather the devil I know than the one I don't. So, thank you for your time.

Thank you. Thank you, Alan. That was awesome. So, it's nice to see everyone again. Likewise. Thank you.

We're not your enemy. We're really not your enemy. We're here to try to help. Um, let me shed a little light if I can on chapter 40R and the MBTA community's law so you understand how these things come together and where they don't. I've worked on two chapter 40R districts, including the one in Rochester. Um, so I'm pretty familiar with the law. It is different from the MBTA Communities Act in a couple of ways. One, you choose to apply to the state for approval of a 40R district. It requires prior state approval before the zoning goes to town meeting. If you uh pass the zoning to enable development under the chapter 40R law, u the town receives an initial payment. It's called a zoning incentive payment just for passing the zoning. And then for each dwelling unit that's built in the district that would not have been built without the 40R legislation, um you received what's called a bonus payment. It's a $3,000 per building permit for each building permit for a unit that couldn't have been built without the 40R. you receive an additional payment. So those are the kind of big financial incentives to think about with with 40R. The law was passed in 2004. The specific intent was to encourage communities to create higher density multif family housing. There are three tiers of housing types that are allowed under chapter 40R. Single family, townhouse style sort of attached units and multif family. And the density requirements differ by housing type. So one of the an example of a difference between 40R and the MBTA communities law is that in a multif family use which you really have to include under 40R the minimum density is 20 units an acre whereas under MBTA communities it's 15

units an acre. So if you can arrive at a plan for a chapter 40R district that that checks all the boxes, you will um at least be able to meet the density requirement for MBTA community. So there is a potential to make it work. It doesn't always work. When we worked with Rockland on their MBTA community zoning, they wanted to put their MBTA district in their downtown area because they already had a chapter 40R district there and it didn't work. So the laws are different in the way they measure density and the land area that they consider developable per for purposes of figuring out can you build the number of units that you say you're going to build. Um [snorts] and I just want you to know it sometimes works and it sometimes doesn't. There's a lot of mythology about happened in what happened in Middleboro and I just need to get this on the table. Middleboro was able to satisfy the requirements of the MBTA communities law. They did have to comply. They complied by adding land to their 40R district which already existed. They already had a 40-yard district in Middbor. They wanted to use that to to meet the requirements of the MBTA communities law. They were almost there. But the MBTA communities law in Middbor because they're a train station town required a minimum land area that was like 50 acres. They weren't quite there. So the state said, "Look, if you add land to your 40R district, you can probably get to a something that complies with the MBTA communities law and and now you've got, you know, your 40R district, but you also are meeting the requirements of of the MBTA communities law." And that's what happened in Mbro. So they still did have to comply. They agreed to comply. They did it by changing their 40R district. And we do have a few communities in Massachusetts that have met the MBTA communities law by being able to submit a district that already existed. That's not that's not unheard of. It's not common, but it's happened. Um, and

Middle chose to say, look, we already have this 40R district that we like. Can we just modify it? And the Commonwealth said, sure, if you can make it work for both, that's fine. So, that's just a little background about Middbor. Um the the laws are a little bit different. I did kind of have sort of a conversation with the Executive Office of Housing and Livable Communities a while back when we were working with Rockland just to sort of understand how these two programs come together. So we kind of understand this. Um I think that if you want to go the Chapter 4R route, I think it's fine. um we would need to analyze the property both for MBTA compliance and 40R and it's done differently. So nothing in state government is the same, right? Um they measure density differently there. It's just a little bit more complicated than you probably even want to know about. But we would have to look at both and say, can we make this site work for both from the from a density calculation standpoint? And if we can, then you would need to decide, gee, we do we want to do this 40our approach. Uh, and if you do, then we would need to have a conversation probably with with Val, if you're still here, I hope um Mary and anybody else you wanted with the state um office that handles 40R because it's different people. Um, and then we would have to also coordinate with the MBTA communities folks. So, there's a little more work involved, but if that's what you want to do, it's fine. I just think the first step is for us to determine can we actually beat the requirements of both. Um if you in the other thing I I want to just make clear um about 40s was referred to earlier. We have only one town in Massachusetts that's getting a subsidy under chapter 40s. There is no guarantee that you are going to get additional state aid. The way it works is more complicated than you want to know, but just trust me on

this. Most towns with a 40R district have gotten no aid under chapter 40s. The only thing about chapter 40s is that if for some reason the property tax revenue generated by the 40r development does not generate enough money to meet the per pupil cost of children living in the development based on the average per pupil cost for the state. Not yours, but the average for the state. If that project's not generating that much revenue, then you would be eligible for a subsidy and the department of revenue handles that. But at the most, we've only had three towns qualify for it. And at this point, it's only one, and it's Lakeville. Um, and the issue there is, I don't know if you're familiar with the 40 in Lakeville, but that happened to be built under a low-inccome housing tax credits program. So, you know, there's reasons why that project doesn't quite generate the revenue needed to meet the state average for the students who live there. But I just don't want anybody going into this thinking there's going to be a windfall under 40R because it's just not what happens. But the advantage is you can sort of take the position of we're doing this because we want to we want to do a 40R. Um, and if we can make that work and that also satisfies 3A, then what have we lost?

I [clears throat] think it's great that we that we have you on board that you understand all of these ins and outs already heading into it. That makes it a lot cleaner in terms of uh figuring out the modeling and that kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the modeling is different. So, we've just had we would have to um be able to get the most current version of the 40R model. It's another Excel model. Don't forget that model and and take a look at it. I had asked you um when we had that call if this particular property if the town chose to go with a 40R and if we fell a little short um with your compliance model as you've referred to before with the MBTA would we then be able to create an overlay district to satisfy any shortfall? Would they work together or they have to be two separate animals? I think we want to try to make them work together if we can. Okay.

I would think that'd be a lot easier for you folks and your voters to understand. It's like here's this zoning overlay and gosh golly gee, it meets both requirements. So now we don't have to have an argument anymore about the MBTA communities law and we get this 40R district that's actually going to generate some financial benefits with the town. Yeah. But also gives you a district you've got that people are going to feel like they have a little more control over. Right. Right. The downside is that you still have to explain to your residents that the density requirement is higher. So just understand that.

I I know. But given the fact that this gentleman came before us two times, I found out that he was discussing things with um the town planner previous. Uh he he's definitely is intending on building there.

Sure. And uh I'm you know a little concerned as to what might go there if we can't make something work. And none of us and me especially want anything to do with the MBTA being forced down our throats by the state. But if we could check a box and if this developer is willing to work with us and we can work with him, then it almost seems like a win-win for everyone because we could gain some commercial business, get some commercial tax revenue in the town, which we desperately need. And unfortunately, there would be housing, but I think that the housing that we could possibly be looking at with a 40R if we chose to do so would be less than what he could do.

Right. So, [clears throat] there's some additional work that's going to need to be done on the 40R side. um they're going to require some type of a like a at least a sort of a sketch plan or a representation of what a proponent might want to build because that's going to form the basis for what gets plugged into their spreadsheet model. Yeah.

Um, and I will also say because I don't know the property you're referring to, the chapter 40R has a specific mission. It is so-called smart growth. So, the location really matters. With MBTA communities, not so much. Some communities have put their MBTA communities district in a place where they actually wanted to see some housing happened. Others have not. But under 40R, [clears throat] you don't get an approval just because you've got a project that might want to go forward. They're going to really look at the location, what it's related to, um how it relates to your master plan, how it relates to your other zoning. is there. In other words, we have you have to sort of be able to make a case for it is so-called smart growth. Um, and they've turned some down. So, I just wanted everybody to understand that it's it's it's a higher bar that has to be met.

Uh, and I'm not saying that to discourage you. I just want you to understand. I just [clears throat] excuse me. I'm sorry to interrupt. I just have a couple quick questions. So, Sure. [clears throat] It's 20 units per acre for the 40R for for multi for multif family. Yes. And we can over overlay that on top of the M MBTA. There shouldn't be any issue with that. That that is what Middlebor did. They were able to say here's our 40R. We've added land to it. Now we meet both MBTA requirements and 40R and everything's fine. Okay. Um 40R has a higher percentage of affordable housing, 20%. Yes, they do. It's not limited to 20%.

To mean it's not limited to 10%. No, no. I'm say I'm saying it it says in here um Mr. Germaine's uh a minimum of 20%. The state will not approve more than 20%. Okay. So, it has to be it's 20 it's going to be 20%. It becomes infeasible at at a certain percentage. It just becomes the project won't work. Yeah. [snorts] So, just so you know, the statute 40R actually refers to 20%. In the old days, we had some 40R districts that were created with a 25% minimum, but they're not approving those anymore. Okay. And it says, uh, multif family or mixeduse development. Can it be limited to mixeduse or must it be both?

Um, it would be mixed use including multif family. So, I mean, preferably what the town would like because that the area we're talking about currently is a commercial area and the town is very very little of that. Um, we would prefer a mixed use with uh commercial and residential development in an area such as that. Um, but that I suppose that's dealer's choice. Whoever comes forward can say I'm not building commercial, I'm just building multif family. That is yes, that is correct. That's all. Thank you very much. Yeah, no problem. Mr. Termaine, just to clarify, make it easy for F.

Can you please come to the microphone for the audience at home? Yeah, I'm I'm sorry, Judy. I'm quite familiar with uh 40R, but I'm sure you are. Um the proposed plan is it the the plot is 30 acres. 15 of [clears throat] it is buildable. 15 of it is considered kind of wet. on the 15 that is buildable. The proposal is from what I've seen for the plan so far is 240 residential and I think there's six or eight commercial but that's in an L-shaped fashion like I said similar to cornerstones. So it certainly meets the minimum standard for density

and that's fine. I think what the Commonwealth's going to want to see is um some multif family units above the commercial as opposed to a complete separation. Oh. Oh, there would be more than 240 units. Yeah. Well, sometimes developers don't want to do those. So, I'm just being honest with people. I mean, it's a smart growth law. And so, um the, you know, the scenario they're going to want to see is freestanding multif family is fine, but on the commercial piece, they're going to want to see housing above I think that even Costa suggested that I think we talked him out of it and said no commercial should be and then housing, right?

So he's willing to do again he we have a very proactive developer who's chomping at the bit to work with the town not against the town. So I think that this we should do everything we possibly can. I think the location is perfect. It's right off the highway. It's in the shopping center area of Caba with gas station, CVS, Shaw's market, Tractor Supply, Avashan Hardware, and Route 44. And higher densities are going to help those retail. Sure. Market going to help them a lot because where they going to go shopping? They're going to go to Shaws. The

the other thing I want you to all know about 40R, and I don't mean to do this peace meal. It's just things come to me as we're sitting here talking. Um, when you're applying to the MBTA community's folks for approval under 3A, they're not requiring you to show that you have adequate utilities to support development. The 40R people will.

So, they're going to want to know how are you providing water and wastewater to this project. So, I'm telling you this because there's there's a higher burden on the town to meet in order to get 40hour approval. You don't just get it. Um, and I think that's a conversation that you and Mary or someone from the town needs to have with Mass Housing Partnership because right now our scope does not include because because we were just the program we're working with you under is to get 3A zoning pass. So, I'm more than happy to help you with 40R, but I just think you're there's needs to be a conversation as to who's going to do that extra work. And if you want us to do it, which is fine because I've done two of them, but if you want us or someone else, somebody's going to need to pay for it.

So, we can have that conversation offline. I'm I'm not trying to be a mercenary. I'm just trying to be honest with you. I know what's involved. All right. So, is the town on the hook for the uh necessary infrastructure, water and sewer in regards to 40? No, you're not. But you are on the hook to show that it can be done. Okay. And the plan that A has drawn up has shown that this developer will put in his own public water supply well. He'll treat the water. He the race wastewater is already delineated. In fact, if you get a hold of a and maybe invite him and Costa into, you know, your next meeting is pretty jammed, but maybe the one after that, um, they'll bring in the plan. He's got it drawn up

so you can see exactly what it looks like. And this abuts um town of Carver conservation land because there was actually some very early discussion about possibly swapping some land with Carver would give him some more backyard and then because he owns property going down 58 toward Plimpmpton and he would give some of that land to Carver and do a land swap. U but that's in a conservation restriction up there. So, I think that'd be difficult to do, but that's all conservation behind there. So, I I really I really think it checks off 99% of the boxes. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of leg work, Judy. I have no doubt that there's going to be a lot of leg work involved, but I think it's a much better proposal than trying to just get a MBTA community rammed in, which I honestly and truly think that that based on the last town meeting will spectacularly fail again. I just don't see it happening. So, that's just my personal take, but I'm the guy who stood on the front of the room and washed everybody's face. And that that was going down the toilet before we even called that question. So,

I would agree with that. Well, I'm happy to pick up the phone and call Mass Housing Partnership and see what what could be worked out, whether it could become from the other side. It's two different programs. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um and I I have tried not to push that because I didn't want to get out in front of anybody on this. Um Yeah. But that I just think we just need to cover that base. It's it's just like there's a whole application that has to be prepared and um you know the modeling. Yeah. It's just I've I've been through this so tell you.

Is there any reason this wouldn't work on the West Street property as well?

So all I'm going to say about West Street is speaking just for me. I was never a fan of that site because it's a big parcel and there was no way honest to God hear us on this. There was no way we were going to be able to make that property work and be close to the zoned capacity target Carver has to meet and then also meet the density. [clears throat] It just doesn't work. It's too big. You need a smaller property. It was why ironically some of the other sites we looked at were much closer to what you said you wanted, which was stay as close to I think it's 235 235 as possible and we can't make it work.

And Spring Street was much closer to that. It it was right think seven acres and it it really cut the line a little close but we could always add a little more property onto that. Yeah. To ensure proper screening and clearance from the wetlands. It's it's your call. It's your it's your decision. Right. Understood. I am looking at this project that we're talking about behind Nuras for the 40R to check that box with MBTA. Yep.

That's my whole thought process. And I don't know, you know, this is the first time the board has heard about this. I don't want MBTA. I don't want that shoved down our throats. But then again, if we don't do something, you know, this gentleman is still going to do this in North Car. He's still going to build. So, if we don't create an area, you know, we could create an area with MBTA and then what's going to happen is some developer could come in at some point in time and do that and then we've checked the box with MBTA, but this guy is still going to build there. He came in with his plans and I nicely told him to hit the road and you know, it was kind of awkward actually sitting and talking to him. Um, but he's not going to hold on to this land. So, yeah, we could have this box checked over here for the MBTA if we o do an overlay district. But he's still going full speed ahead

hopefully with commercial which is what the town needs because absolutely um and that's the reason why I there's no water available. He's doing residential out there [clears throat] if there's no currently no water available. He can put in his own well, but he's still limited to somewhere in the neighborhood of uh 30 houses as a subdivision in that area currently. I'm not so sure he's thinking about substance 40 units. Well, that would that Excuse me. That's the plan B. Excuse me. That would be adversarial to the town and Absolutely. and the state would allow up to 200 unless the town um right came through and approved for a higher number. So, thank you because I was just going to say that there's the town has previously stated

Yeah. that they had no interest in allowing anything over 200. So, I think uh if they stick to their guns um and that's how it's it's going to go. And honestly, well, I mean, if you're looking at 200 and then versus what I think Mr. Germaine said 240 plus commercial, he doesn't have to do commercial, but if he did a 40R, he would be putting it commercial, which would benefit the town. So, right. If were we to do a a 40R? Correct. Yes, Mary. I just want to be honest with everybody.

If you have a plan that says we're going to have commercial here, some upper story units, and then we're going to have multif family here, there won't be something in the zoning that says you have to build the commercial. It's just providing for it. Just understand, please. No, I would, like you said, I would prefer uh over picture what the zoning is going to say. It's going to say permitted uses, multif family dwellings, 20 units an acre. Uh retail, uh whatever, you know, mixeduse building,

ground floor retail, ground floor food service, upper story, residential. Those are permitted uses. From that menu of permitted uses, the developer gets to choose. So, I'm not discouraging you from 40R. I kind of like 40R. I really do. But I just want everybody to understand what you're what you're do what what you're asking for here so that you don't feel blindsided later because that's the last thing I want to see happen to this town. I appreciate that. And u with 40B um I don't know what the uh the restrictions are on units per acre in regards to that. But um there are none. There are none.

No. So, in other words, like if I had five acres, I could put 50 100 houses on it or So, there's a you have a a large scale project cap that applies. So, it's 200 units no matter what until your total housing base goes over some number that I'm not even remembering right now, but um you know, there is this cap. You correctly know. Well, and it's about 300 h uh affordable houses that the town of Carver needs to meet that particular Is it that number? I haven't looked at your 40B count, so I I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, at the most the town could, you know, might allow a 40B development and get the 200 houses out of it. But again, that would also be a 20% uh affordable requirement. And if they're rental houses, I believe that all would count towards if they're 25%. If they're

So, this is another confusing thing. Don't you love these laws and how they don't align? So, under chapter 40B, um, at least 25% of the units in a proposed development have to be affordable to households that are moderate income, which means an income at or below 80% of the area median or 20% for households with incomes below 50% of the median. 40R is a maximum of 20 units, 20% affordable and it can be 80%. So the only units that are going to count are the affordable ones

in 40R or in 40B also. In 40R 40B, you can't get there at 20% of 80% of median because they won't approve it. It's either going to be

I should do a big board on this. I should have a slide deck for you guys so I could show all this. It's either going to be 25% of the units are affordable to households at or below 80% of the area median or 20% of the house housing units affordable to people at or below 50% of the median. That's the 40B standard. Under 40R, the statute says at uh that 20% of the units must be affordable and [clears throat] affordable is defined as at or below 80% of the median. So you can have a 40R district that's creating 20 a development whatever the number of unit 200 units you know 40 of the units are affordable at or below 80% of median those 40 units will count toward your subsidized housing inventory not all 200.

Okay. Now do rental units in general count towards affordable housing. Oh absolutely but depending upon how many count they are. Yes, the 40R affordable units will count on the subsidized housing inventory. But because it will only be 20% of the units are affordable, only those affordable units are going to count. Okay? As opposed to the entire development. So under 40B, they'd have to have 25% affordable and the entire project would count. So that's that's the big caveat. I'll put a memo together for you on this

bonus for the town. I I'll put a together memo on this for you because it's hard to th sort of throw these numbers at you. But on the 40B, the town doesn't get any benefits financially. On the 40R, the town gets maybe and No, no, no. When she talked about the bonus payments, the zoning incentives, Connie, you will get those, but that's only if it's developed above the the base minimum of 20 units per acre.

No, no, that's just se separate standards here. Under 40R, if you adopt zoning that the state has pre-approved, 20% of the units are affordable. I don't care if it's mixed use for purposes of this conversation, it doesn't matter. States approved what you're proposing. You go to town meeting. Hallelujah. It passes. You get a bonus. You get a zoning incentive payment at that point that's tied to the number of units that can be built in the district that couldn't have been built otherwise. Let's just say it's a $100,000 for the sake of this conversation. Then if the units are built for each one that could not have been built without that 40R district, you get a bonus payment of $3,000 per building permit per unit. Okay? So there is a fairly generous payment that comes out of this. You do not get that financial benefit from 40B and you do not get it from the MBTA communities law. You get it specifically for 40R because that's how the project that's

and that's just a one-time payment. The zoning incentive payment is a one-time payment. The building permit payments are as the project is under construction. Okay. But again, that's still a one-time payment. Yeah. It's just Yes, exactly. And then in regards to the education bonus, I you probably don't know off the top of your head what the the state average. You cannot you cannot go there. Please don't go there. I'm telling you, you're going to you're going to regret it because you're probably not going to qualify and then your residents will be mad because they will have heard something that didn't turn out to be true. That's what I'm trying to clarify. Thank you.

I really wouldn't do it. It's It's a complicated formula. It's like So, let's say your per pupil cost I'm just going to make up easy numbers is $10,000 per unit. I know it's higher per kid. I know it's higher, but the state average is $7,500 per kid. So that's the number that the state is going to use to determine do you get a 40s payment. If the development does not generate enough property tax revenue to cover the number of kids in the project times 70* 7500 you will get a payment no matter what you're actually paying for those kids. So that's why I'm saying that it's

communities really have not gotten it. Chelsea got it for a few years and then fell even Chelsea fell off. So, it's only Lakeville right now that's getting that 40s payment. No. And there's lots more 40R units and 40R districts out there. So, I just I want people to understand what's probable, not what maybe. No, thank you for that. I appreciate that clarification. Another highlight of checking the boxes if you're able to do the comb combination of satisfying the MBTA with the 40R if that's the route we take uh is that you're eligible once you adopt something that's um satisfies the MBTA zoning for [clears throat] a lot of grants.

That's true. Yes. And there's a lot of money only for communities that have that and and it's available for infrastructure and available for a lot of other um a wide array of things that can support the town. So, good point. there's a there's a strong incentive there to have the ability to not not that Carver wants to do it, but if it's if it's something that you're checking the box, it does open up a lot of windows in terms of the possibilities for grant funding. Okay, thank you. Yeah, it's a good good point. Yeah.

So, my concern is that uh putting a 40R there. I mean, if he's going to go ahead and put in 300 units on that property is is what's the ask is, but we'll say 200 for whatever the case may be. Um, under the MBTA law, they wouldn't all count towards affordable housing. Is that correct?

That's correct. Because you can't ask for more than 20%. That's a big loss on meeting our goals and getting out from under the threat of 40b. We need roughly 300 houses. It would be more beneficial for the town to take in 240b houses and all of a sudden be up at close to 80 plus% of our required and then with uh you know as affordable housing which we can never come up catch up with at this point. Um it would allow that the state uh the town would only be required to allow up to uh a 100 or even less of 40b to meet our uh I think it's 380 um required for affordable housing. So that's that's how I look at it. So 40B I'm not a big fan of it on the one hand. On the other hand, it it kind of checks off a really big box on meeting the affordable housing requirements and getting out of the thumb from under the thumb of 40B. As I understand, Middleboro is probably the closest town in the state of Massachusetts to get it. Um, they're 10% and they're at somewhere around 98 99%.

So, you'd be okay with this gentleman putting in a 40B project there? Not that we have any say over it because we don't. We don't. We have zero. I'm not okay. I I wouldn't prefer it. I would prefer commercial development on commercial land, period. No, I understand. But what he's trying to do is work with us and he's not even come before us yet, so we haven't seen anything. But he's proposing to do, you know, the the units to kind of check the box in with the 40R and with the MBTA, you know, to find some sort of balance there, but also put in commercial. So, but if he puts in a 40B, we don't have any commercial. So, we don't even know what we're looking.

But that's not There's no promise of commercial either under 40R. That's right. There isn't. That is correct. But if he comes forward with his plans and we see, but that doesn't mean he has to build it. I mean, we can approve the plan so that maybe sometime in the future he can build it if he wants to, right? But there's we can't require him to build any of that. And that's it's 40R and I looked into it previously and it is it is promising and and 15 years ago it was

it was more promising but now it's an old weak carrot that doesn't really hold any hold a lot of uh you know nutrients in it for for the town. I mean uh if we go under 40R and we do that and only 20% of charge uh of the housing gets put towards [clears throat] uh affordable housing. Well, we're still on the hook for all the rest of the infrastructure upgrades we're going to need in regards to that project. Um, and a one time We're not doing it. He's doing it. No, but we're going to be paying for the school, the police, the fire, and all the other town services that that go along with project like that. Um, regardless of what road he goes down,

right? regardless of of of what road we go down. Uh unless he goes down 40B, then we'll at least have the bonus of the affordable housing and we won't with the threat of a uh 40b development in this town will be severely lessened down to well under 100 um for any 40b project going forward. Would it be helpful to you if we created a matrix that shows MBTA communities 40R 40B? Yes, it would be very helpful.

Show you density requirements, you know. Um, whatever, you know, a variety of parameters. It might just be helpful to you to at least see how these three things come together. Um, one thing I want to also mention to the board because it wouldn't it would be remiss if I didn't say this. Um, there the possibility always exists in a an MBTA communities district or a 40R district that a developer may decide to apply for a 40B comprehensive permit anyway.

And here's why. I do a lot of work with 40B If the developer needs relief from your local wetlands bylaw or your local board of health regulations, zoning alone isn't going to fix that. And the only remedy available is chapter 40b. So just understand that it's never just zoning ever in my experience ever with with 40b. I worked on a a very small 40b in Brewster about 18 months ago. There was no zoning relief needed. It was all about the local wetlands bylaw. So, you know, just understand that these things they they have different purposes. They came from at a different time different points in time. They do have some different requirements. I can lay this out for you in a matrix, but just understand always that if if for a project to go forward, the applicant needs more than different zoning. if it's any sort of waiverss under other non-zoning bylaws, they may they may end up applying for a comprehensive permit. Anyway,

the other thing we have to keep in mind too is if we do look at the 40R route, there's the economic feasibility analysis that has to be done um because of the 20%. If 10%. So under MBTA, I have a meeting with MBTA community staff uh 40R staff tomorrow. Okay. about a different project. Let me just run this by them because my understanding is that um MBTA for MBTA communities purposes if it's a 40R district they will accept the 20% but they won't accept more. Okay.

Um because they had to do something to accommodate these situations like a middle where with some tweaks to middle bro zoning you had something that would work. Um but you can't do a 40R with 10% affordable. So, I think they created this sort of waiver for these 40 yards, but let me find out. Cool. I don't want to misspeak. Thank you. I look forward to finding out that. Yeah. I mean, you have options. Look at it this way. Um, well, unless it's the NBTA bylaw, which we do have to come up with something.

Yeah. I mean, you do. And I think as as much as it sort of feels like a bitter pill, I the irony of this is you're interested in pursuing or potentially interested in pursuing a district that has a higher density requirement than MBTA communities. So you're going to have to think as a board about how you explain all this to town meeting. And fortunately, you don't have to do that right now, [laughter] but you're going to have to think about how you explain we don't like this law, but we like this one. Um so just be processing this conceptually. Combination may have more synergy. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's true. Very good.

What would you like us to do? First of all, we can model. We can look at the property that you're referring to in the MBTA communities model. We can do that. Um I have this meeting with um HLC tomorrow about another town, about another 40R. I can make sure we have the current version of their their density model and we can look at it that way and I think we can at least give you a read. I can do that much within our existing scope. We can we can try that out. That would be helpful. And we've already rough modeled the Spring Street one. Yeah, we have. We've done Spring Street already. So, if we could use the two of them as as a comparison for development. Absolutely. We can resurrect that work. That's fine. That would be helpful.

I would uh add another property onto that to make sure. Um, you'll notice that when you pull it up, there's a circle of properties and there's you can add one more on to that to to kind of flush out the 15 acres for us for the for Spring Street. Okay. Because I think we came in at 14.7. There's no minimum. Yeah. For you guys, you're a you're a adjacent small town. also says there's not a requirement for there's no requirement for minimum land area if if that parcel meets the density requirement and the unit capacity then All right. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. You have somewhat different requirements than say a middle or a Plymouth.

Okay. Yeah. How else can we be helpful you tonight? You're all looking a little bit shell shocked. I mean I'm really sorry to drop this confusion.

I'm not sh I'm intrigued by this. It is does check the boxes. It does check the boxes which is very good. Uh it it potentially just as a concept it checks the boxes as a proposed reality. Mr. Germaine's proposed it puts us in working with a developer who who wants to comply and wants to work with this and wants to make this a solution. So, I think we're I'm I'm intrigued by it. And I think what you said about the Matrix or whatever else you want to call it, that explains how how not not the verses, but how these work together. Sure. How how the MBTA um and 40hour work together, you know, maybe maybe an ideal picture because I mean,

you know, this um it's got a lot of problems. that solves a lot of problems and um it's more encouraging. Anyway, you know, you know, Mr. Jermaine said, "The better the devil, you know, I always use the analogy of the root canal. When you're going to have a root canal, you're going to have the root canal and you you better have it at a time and place of your choosing." You know, the dentist you like with the right kind of anesthesia and a nice [laughter] glass of wine afterwards. You know, it's it's it's uh you got to have that root canal. You know, it's just grit your teeth and get it done. And that's uh we're in a funny situation here. It's not untenable yet. Nobody strung us up and we haven't been arrested, but um it's uh it's difficult because we want to do the right thing.

Yeah, I know. And but we don't want to do the thing that we're being told to do. So with good reason. It's not simply one last question on our part. Um, under the MBTA, 10% is required to be affordable housing. No, you're actually not required to do any affordable housing. Well, I mean, you can do up to 10% do 10%. But out of the entirety of the project, how much is considered affordable housing towards the town requirement? Only the affordable units. Not all of the even though they're rental units,

right? Because the only way all the rental units count is if at least 25% of them are affordable at or below 80% of median or at least 20% are affordable at or below 50% of median. When we put this memo together for you, we'll put these numbers in it so you can see. No, I I get it now. And so they they the state more or less intentionally made it on it to animals by maximizing it at 10%. It's kind of it's kind of locked in. So that there's the state is really doesn't want you to reach that. So the law the part of the problem is that the statute itself does not require any affordability.

So before we start blaming the state agency that's trying to administer this, let's just look at what the legislature did. What was put together? Yes. It's not about who's trying to administer it. It's about what was put together. And it was I feel it was just a little shortsighted in that aspect of it. All right. Sounds good. You feel like you have a a pretty clear plan of what we've asked. Okay. And uh Mr. Germaine, can I just ask one more quick question? Sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, Judy. I think Mr. Sheay is wrong. If we were to come up with the affordability number to comply

to make everybody happy, which I think is a 10% number townwide, that about right 10, 10 and a half, something like Chapter 40B standard is 10% of So if we were achieve that, it doesn't shut off future 40b. All it does is allow us I believe if we meet the minimum, we can take a 2-year moratorum. No, you can turn them down after 10%. And permanently? Yeah. Until you fall below 10%. Which which will happen eventually. It will happen eventually. What do you mean will [clears throat] happen eventually? Because eventually your housing stock's going to grow. Oh, okay. And then we'll fall, right? And then we'll have another project. Right. That's right. That's what happens. That is the world of 40B.

And but 40B is only So if we're required to have let's say three 400 to make it easy and we have all of a sudden we're we have 4,01 houses. Then all of a sudden the number 0000.1 is eligible for 40B. They can't come in and say we're going to build 240b. They can come in and say we can build one. No sir. No sir. No dispel this. Less than 1%.

No. No. [clears throat] Because actually there's real stories, very sad stories in my long career in this business. uh if you are less if you're below the 10% minimum which is 10% of your your year round housing units um if the proponent says I need 200 units to make this project feasible even though you're only shy of 10% by 10 units yeah doesn't matter

they can apply for those 200 units and you would be you know in the same position you're in if you had only 5% of your housing on the subsidized housing inventory because it's the applicant is asserting I need this number of units to make my project feasible. So it's an unattainable goal. No, it's not unattainable. We have a lot of towns that are over 10%. [clears throat] A lot of towns in Massachusetts that are over 10% to unattainable to maintain.

Well, yeah, but I mean unless you have a super high growth spurt, it's you don't fall below that 10%. If you have enough of a buffer, I mean that's part of the problem. I I worked with Brooklyn, which is a much bigger town than you guys. They had 17 comprehensive permits in like seven years. I I felt like I lived at Brock Brookline Town Hall. What that board went through was brutal. That's a lot.

Um and so and they for all the units they've approved, they still hover up and down relative to 10%. Because if the projects aren't under construction within a year after the comprehensive permit's been issued, those units which have been added to the subsidized housing inventory now come off. So poor Brookline, you know, is just a subject to the whims of the developers who can't get these projects moving. It's hard. To Mr. Germaine, is it Germaine? Yes. Just to Mr. Germaine's point, you're referring to safe harbor where if we were to construct so many units within one year or two years or 6 months depending on the math. Yeah.

Uh we can get a temporary safe harbor which is what you were referring to 40b. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. Even if you're below 10% you get a so-called safe harbor, but it's temporary, right? So, you know, different legislators at different times with different objectives are writing different laws. And that's what we're that's the car that's the deck we've been dealt as cities and towns. So, I'd have to say there aren't very many consultants that sit in the driver's seat the way that you in particular. It's my old age, Val. That's [laughter] all. It's just my old age. your expertise is is really germanine to what Carver's up to and and uh I personally really appreciate that we have you working with us.

Well, thank you. I'm glad you're here, too, believe me. So, all right, we'll take a look uh we'll get the 40R model tomorrow and we'll take a look at it. I can kind of walk you through it's it's actually very similar in some ways. Um and we can get back to you. Meanwhile, I'll get you a memo with the matrix and all these numbers that are just going to make you blind. But at least if they're on paper, you can kind of look at them and say, "All right, if I study this hard enough, next time we come back, we'll quiz you." Perfect. All right. Thank you both. Thank you [clears throat] so much.

All right. Take care. Next in the agenda this evening, we have a public hearing that has been continued for Wingham Street Solar 2 LLC requesting a special permit and site plan review pursuant to section 29-3-1, 29-3-6, 29-5-3, and 29-4. 4-3 of the Carver zoning bylaw located off Wearham Street in Carver, Mass. Assesses map 134, lots 4-2A, 4-2B, and 4-3 in the residential agricultural zoning district. This project consists of a largecale groundmounted solar photoic system with coupled battery energy storage system. Uh, this applicant has requested a continuence to the January 27th, 2026 meeting. Um, I have a question for the board before we make a motion.

I I would not put it on January 27th. January 27th is is chock full and four fourhour planning board meetings can really wear on a person's nerves. You know, Mr. seen this one yet. I would probably agree with you on that one because we haven't even gone out on this cuz February 10th is wide open and there's nobody. So, yeah, we haven't been to the site yet. No, we haven't. And we were going to discuss that. I have notes to discuss that walk through. So, um,

if if it if I was to make a motion, I would make a motion to continue the public hearing for Wear Ham Street Solar 2 LLC for February 10, 2026 at 700 p.m. Carver Town Hall, room one. Second. He made the motion, right? Yes, he did. So, second. Yeah, he made the motion. Yes. Okay. Second. You say I I Kevin Robinson says I say Mr. Shay says I Marilyn Williams says I Very good. And we need to still sort out uh sitewalk with that particular project.

We do. Do you want to do that at the end or do you want to discuss it now? It's up to everyone and now we have a little bit of time. So, well, I don't want to hold up Mr. Benson since I Okay. So, I'll read the next

Yeah. Public hearing which has been continued on Tmont Street Solar One LLC requesting a special permit and site plan review 73 Tmont Street and Cover Masses map 121 lot 4-0 in the residential agricultural re zoning district to construct solar floating dual use can canal canopy and ground mounted solar arrays with associated ESS. This applicant has requested a continuence to the January 27th, 2026 meeting.

If it's uh acceptable, I would make a motion to continue the Tremmont Street Solar One LLC to February 10th, 2026, 7 p.m. Kyra Town Hall, room 1. And I'll second that. I Kevin Robinson says I. Mr. Sheay says I. Ellen says I. Mariela Williams says I All right. And we've already done the sitewalk there, so we should be all set with that.

That one is all set. Very good. Uh, next we have other business. Uh, we have David Baston, 15 Pleasant Street, Assesses Map 29-9-B1, is requesting a waiver of the special permit filing fee for future filing. I'm sorry, I mispronounced your name, Mr. Cast, you're not the first actually. So, quick glance down. So,

okay. Um, well, first, thank you very much for I know you added me to the agenda late. Thank you for your help. I know I slid in home plate a little bit late on this, but uh that's kind of the way this process has gone. So, um so, uh I'll keep this as quick and uncomplicated as possible. I'm here asking for relief of those fees. We started a process to get a permit to put a an ADU on our house for my in-laws almost a year ago and have gone through uh building commissioner uh zoning [snorts] board of appeals three times legal uh town selectman like for a whole number of different issues where I sort of every time I got referred to one place that they referred me to someplace else to someplace else someplace else. So, the amount of time that I've we've put into this year-long process to finally get to you to submit a special permit for [snorts] this ADU um has been substantial. So, uh Rod Palmer had recommend that I come before you and ask for uh relief of the uh fee to file that special permit, which we plan to do u hopefully by your next meeting. So,

I I did read your letter and I fully understand it. Um, and aside from the public hearing notice that we have to that has to be paid for to put in the newspaper and the mailing to the abuters, it I would be in in favor of of waving the fees, just not out of pocket fees that we would otherwise have to cut cover because our budget is pretty tight as it is. I appreciate that. Um I I feel badly that you've gone through all this. I really do. I believe you. So,

and you know, from the town perspective and also for what you've been dealing with with your personal life. I feel that if we make an exception to wave this filing fee, it sets a bad precedence because everyone has to pay it that comes forward. I would like to do that for you, but I just don't know if it's fair to everyone that comes in front of the planning board or, you know, makes submission for a special permit

and I certainly understand that. And and had this process, I think, gone the way that I expected it to, I wouldn't I wouldn't be here, you know, like but but having been sort of referred and bounced and moved and the the dynamic that it's caused in our home over the last year, like it's it's been it's been something. It's worth me being here and try to explain that to you. I I suspect that as you move forward, and I know that there's some novelty here. I know that the the special permit for a second ADU is a new thing. I know that um but but I feel like I haven't really gotten to that point yet, right? Like I've been we've been through zoning board three times and waiting on legal and and I understand that uh their meetings only once a month and so these things take time, but I feel like my communication has been relatively one-sided to this point where I' I've communicated with the town for what I needed, but there was very little communication back unless I facilitated further. And so there's there in lies my frustration. So that I I'm assuming that not every application will go like that, right? So I hope certainly not every application will go like that. So I'm just hoping that you would consider it in this particular case because of the the exceptional pathway that this has taken. That's all. See, see the only reason I recommended that is because he has already been through the review through the the various agencies inside the town, which normally our filing fee covers a portion of that, not the entirety. I mean, it's an expensive process and uh but that was the only reason I recommended that um we cut it down to the mailing and the uh notice fees that would come out of pocket. I'd also note that regarding as an exception, an exception really doesn't create a strong precedent. It's a weak precedent because it is an exception from the norm. And the exception is designed for

exceptional cases. And this is I think back to my experience trying to build a house in this town. This is pretty exceptional. How many times were you in front of the ZVA? Uh three. Three times. Yeah. So, so just just a note with that song. Yeah. No, I I I don't think there's any of us here that feel badly or and and honestly, I'm I'm embarrassed. Yes. That this has happened to you. And I understand this has nothing to do with any of you like and and I appreciate you even hearing me on this situation. We passed the ADU law last year and you kind of fell right into that little creasse. Yeah. Right. Correct.

That created. and and I understand that, you know, I do and I understand that these things take time and it's a process and I'm I'm willing to work with the process and I'm willing to cooperate, but this has been really something and I I hope that in some respects it it sets some sort of example of how not to move forward on this with with people who are trying to to take care of their aging parents or or do which is exactly what we're trying to do. And um I hope that this to some degree, you know, can be used as a learning tool to streamline that process a little bit because this is I mean we've had to, you know, we have one small ADU on now that my mom typically winters in because she can't spend winters alone where she lives to the weather's too severe without my dad there. But we've moved my in-laws in. So my mom's been sort of extricated, you know, like so for the last two winters and she's not getting younger and so so it's just been a it's been a bit of a strain. So, I hope that that won't be the case sort of moving forward. I suspect that it won't, but I think mine is an exceptional case and I understand for a host of reasons why it's been that way. But there's also been a number of a number of things that could have been done better by the town to shorten this process and none of those were done. Like that's that's my biggest issue. So,

any other comments? Make an exception. I think we need to vote on this and make I'll make I'll make a motion if it's acceptable. Um that we wave we we wave all not out ofpocket fees which would include advertising in the paper and the mailing and any other um direct fees that we otherwise wwise might occur in regards to this. And I'd second that,

Mr. Lake. Um, I'll say I. Kevin Robinson says I. Mr. Shay says I. Ellen Sillo says I. Mary Ellen Williams says I. All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate you. I appreciate it very much. Um, the next step then is I will next week be uh submitting an application for this special permit for the ADU. Yep. Special permits. Yep. And so I assume I'll be back before you at some point after that. Um um do I need to do anything specific with regard to submitting those fees at this point? Do I need a paper from you that says that these fees are coming? Our town planner is here and you will be talk discussing

uh your special permit with her to make sure everything's in order. She's very good. She was very helpful the other day when I was here where we're going with this. So I think she'll you'll be in good hands. Great. Um I couldn't be happier then. I appreciate your time. Thanks very much. All right. Have a nice night. I got everything. That's okay. Thanks.

Okay. Now, if we have any uh notes, Valerie, would you like if we don't have any as the board, do you have anything? Uh just that we are uh coordinating with Middleboro at the request of the applicant at we had that discussion at the yes opened public hearing for Fullerstone Street Solar and uh we're working with Middle Burough to cross-pollinate in terms of having a the same peer reviewer

and having our um peers within the two town halls talk to each other so that the conditions will um echo each other rather than conflict. And hopefully we'll also be doing some inspections together if if the permit is approved and if the project is constructed the the conditions that we put on it would be similar in so that the project itself would be more successful. Okay. Very good. We have a sidewalk on this. We did. You did have it. Yes. It was the long one. Ellen, [laughter] she walked up and did it did the whole thing. Yeah, over muddy water. We did that at 2:00 and then we had one at 3:00, but

and then uh one question for the board. I discussed this with Valerie earlier and I checked with Area 58. Um I don't know what anyone's thoughts are. Uh we don't I was concerned about the next meeting that we had coming up, but that doesn't seem to be an issue now so much with me. But I think Mr. Mayor that You might have a problem with this. Would you ever be available for a 6 pm meeting during the winter months? I'll do. Okay. Very good. Well, now the agenda is looking a little bit lighter. So, um I wouldn't but I don't know what everyone's thoughts are on. And I know not the springtime, Mr. Robinson, but I didn't know in the winter months. Yeah.

I'm with the associate, Madam Chair. You can't revolve everything around me, you know. No, but your attendance is very important, so we appreciate it. I keep getting old that so feeds my ego. Good to know. But I was going to initially request it if if the agenda was looking as heavy as it had as it was when the meeting started. But now we're it's looking a little bit better. Um so that's good to know. Now we can move on to the minutes. I will make a motion to approve the minutes of October 7, 2025. Um, I think I have a with possible edits.

Yes, I was okay with these except my name is just missing an S at the top. But otherwise, the the minutes look fine to me. So, this motion is to approve with edits. Yep. Do we have a second? Second. Very good. I haven't read them so long to stay. Sorry. Okay. Kevin Robinson says I. Mr. Shay says I. Al says I. Marilyn Williams says I.

And I will make a motion to approve uh the minutes of October 14th, 2025 with any um edits. I think I have some edits. Um again, my name is uh needs an S at the top. I don't think this meeting started at 5:30. I think maybe this was just copied over from the October 7th one that started at 5:30. Yeah, I think you're right. And so this one should have started at 7. Um and then the uh the motion that's made under Rickett's pond. Yes. It has me um taking a roll call and voting on it.

Well, there was that. And uh No, you're you're right. Yep. So that needs to be completely changed. Um and I that other than that they look good to me. So Mr. Shay made the motion to approve with edits. Those were my edits. I'll second that. Second that. Okay. I was absent. You were absent. Mr. says I. Ellen Sadel says I Marilyn Williams says I very good motion to adjurnn. Second.

Kevin Robinson says I Mr. Shay says I says I Mary Williams says I thank you. Have a good evening.