Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Um this is the meeting for different topics.  Uh water resource is one of them and some other   topics that we need to talk about. So um I'd like  to welcome everybody to the meeting and I'd like   to establish a quorum. Good evening everyone. Mr.  Kane Mr. Robertson here. Mr. Hoff Mr. Mr. Kirkner,   Mr. Swissson here, Mr. Lester here,  Mr. Smith here, Commissioner Gordon,   Secretary Dailyaly here. Mr. Vice Chairman,  please let the record reflect we have four   members are present and we do have a quorum.  We'll stand for the pledge of allegiance. Pledge to the flag of the United States of  America and to the republic for which it stands.   One nation under God, indivisible,  with liberty and justice for all. Uh, we have to approve the agenda. We have  any additions or corrections to the agenda?   If not, do I hear a motion to  approve? I move we approve the   agenda. Second. Have a motion and  a second. All in favor, say I. I. Uh Davany Daily, uh would you give the  administrative report, please? If you have   any comments. Um I have no administrative  matters. Love that. Any other comments? Okay, we'll get right into one of the major  elements here, the water resource element.  

Uh Brenda Denny is here to uh talk to us about  this. This is a public hearing. Um so I'd like   to read this the statement about a public  hearing. To speak at the public hearing,   please sign in at the table in the back if you  haven't already done so. Public hearing comments   should be relevant to the topic at hand, namely  the water resource element of the master plan.   Speakers should state their name, address, and  talk into the microphone to facilitate audio and   video recording. Comments will be limited to three  minutes per speaker. Brenda, good evening. So,   as Mr. Robertson said, "We are here to conduct a  public hearing on the 2024 version of the water   resources element. This public hearing includes  both the Carol County Planning Commission as   well as the man planning commissions for the  towns of Manchester and New Windsor. Um the   water resources element document is a document  that all nine county jurisdictions, the county   plus the eight municipalities work together on.  So it's one document for all the jurisdictions. Now, if I can get the mouse to work. I don't even see a mouse. We'll get there eventually. Okay. So the  the purpose of the water resources element,   you you all know this, it's opportunity  to show opportunities and limitations   for water resources and address relationship  between plan growth and water resources. And   um we're doing this ahead of all of the  comprehensive plans because this information   will help inform the next version of the master  plan and the comprehensive plans that that  

are coming after this in terms of how this may  present opportunities or limitations for growth. So just to review quickly, all the planning  commissions reviewed the draft. Everybody   um all the planning commissions gave approval to  send the draft out for the state required 60-day   review period where the state agencies are given  60 days to review and comment on the document as   well as adjoining jurisdictions. So the counties  that surround us also received the document for   review. Um on January 14th, we held a public  information session. So that was completed. We   had one person attend that. And um then so the  next step was for all the planning commissions   to hold a public hearing. Um aside from the  two planning commissions that are with us,   all the town planning commissions have  held their public hearings except for uh   Tony Town and Mount Mountry. Theirs are  scheduled for February 23rd. After that,   all the hearings will be done and we'll  be able to to address the comments. So, because this is a public hearing, of course,  the document has been available for public review   since November 15th. I already mentioned it  went to 60-day review at that same time for   the state agencies. We received comments from  them on January 20th. The public information   session was held January 14th on behalf of  everybody and we had one person attend that. Of course, this was already said, but um  just a reminder that this is only to take   comments on the um not any other agenda  items. three minutes for speaker. Um,   you do not need to provide any responses and  there is no question and answer period. If  

uh anybody has questions on it, they  can contact me uh after the meeting. At this time, we'd be ready to open the  public hearing for comment. Okay. Is   there any comment? I'd like to welcome  Sorry, I didn't. I'd like to welcome   uh the members of New Windsor and Manchester  Council here. Um you have any comment any   Ralph? Can we get everybody to introduce  themselves please in their jurisdiction?   Thank you. Be a good idea. Drew uh Drew Strin  uh News Planning Commission. I'm Dave Hoffman.   I'm the leazison on from the town council to  the planning commission. Glenn Monroe uh New   Windsor Planning Commission. Kevin Shaughness,  New Windsor Planning Commission. Dave Grayson,   New Winsor Planning Commission. Dale Wilder,  Manchester Planning Commission. Henry Leinan,   Manchester Planning Commission. Chris Deario,  Manchester Planning Commission. Okay. Thank you,   gentlemen, for showing up here tonight.  Um, do we have any public comment? Any discussion at all? Okay, we have a couple  options here. And uh we can um we can hold this. There you go. Okay,  here we go. We we can I'll get my notes   here in a minute. Bear with me. Uh we  can hold this uh hold the record open,   leave it open for 10 business days. We can  close the record this evening or we could   leave the record open until February  the 23rd. Um, what's your pleasure?

My recommendation Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. My  recommendation was that you just go ahead and   leave it open to the 23rd since we have two more  planning commissions who are holding hearings   that night and we'll be taking comments until  that time anyway. Okay. Also, because this is   a joint hearing, any like individual who was here  for the hearing, who is a commission member both   of your commission or any other commission could  be the one to make the vote since we're doing this   all as a group right now. Okay. So, what's your  pleasure? I would move that we leave the record   open until February 23rd. Second. All in favor  say I. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm so sorry.   Can we do this as a roll call by each board so  that way each group has a record of what their   votes are. All right. So So it could be Carol  County, Manchester, then New Windsor, whatever   order you please, but as individually roll call.  Wait, so my motion does it pertain to us or does   it pertain to them too? It would pertain to  you only and then they would each need to make   their own. That's what I thought. I apologize. So  let's knock us out. Okay. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Mr. Kirkner, yes. Mr. Lester, yes. Mr. Smith, yes.  Mr. Swissson, yes. Mr. Gordon, Mr. Vice Chairman,   please let the record reflect. We have four  yays and zero nays. Okay. Now, we go to the   Yes. Whichever one of you would like to Whichever  group would like to go first? Well, Manchester can   go first. Should I? I'll make a motion we leave  the record open till February 23rd. I will second   the motion. All those in favor signify by saying  I. I. I. Opposed. The motion carries. Okay. Thank  

you. Have a motion to let the record open until  February. I'll make a motion that we be the record   open to the 23rd. Second. All in favor? Say  I. I. Okay, there we go. Thank you all very   much. Thank you for showing up. My pleasure.  Thank you. Thank you for having Thank you. So, I will be back after I go through  the comments um and provide staff   recommendations on the comments and that  will go to all the planning commissions   and then everybody will again make their own  decisions on uh the revisions to be made. So,   you'll be seeing me in the next month or  so. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Okay, we're going to move to item number seven,   the final site plan for Evapco  contractor storage yard. David. Good evening, commission  members. It is always a pleasure  

to see you at a different time of  day. Let me get things situated here. Okay. So before you this evening uh is one  project being presented by myself, David   Becraft with the development review division. Um  we do have a representative here of the project.   I'll let him introduce himself. Uh my name is  Jim Matias with development design consultants.   And before you is the AVAPCO contractor  equipment storage yard uh file number S249.   And this is before you as a final site plan. Um  you actually may be familiar with this. It was   before the commission um around this time last  year. And what's being proposed is a a storage   yard for the neighboring of Vapco business. So,  for those who might not be familiar with the area,   um the property itself is highlighted here on  the screen and where we are is if you can see   this hazed area. Um that is the city of Tonytown  and we are right on the outskirts of that and the   property itself is mostly zoned agriculture.  Uh you can see by the purple designation that   there is a little bit of industrial zoning on  the property as well. Some of the surrounding   properties um are mostly agriculture.  If you look to the south, you can see   uh that the property is undeveloped except for a  single residential dwelling. Uh immediately to the  

east is zoned industrial and undeveloped. Uh if  you look at those houses directly to the west um   along Krauss Mill Road um so those are residential  dwellings and then the property adjoining to the   north is within the city limits uh and that is  where the VAPCO business lies. So if we zoom in   um on the property itself. So in its entirety the  property is um 78 acres and some change and the   property is also split two ways. So it is split  once by Krauss Mill Road and then split again by   the railroad. And what we are going to focus on  is that middle 54 acre parcel. So if we zoom in   once more uh you can see that the property is  mostly or actually it is undeveloped. Um it is   essentially mostly wooded and also farmland. Uh  as mentioned there are some adjoining properties   uh that are fixed with private dwellings. Um  you can see that there is a stream that runs   along the north end of the property here. Uh,  but there's also um a stream that runs along   Krauss Mill Road as well. Um, which is not shown  on here. Uh, but I'll get into that a little bit   uh into the presentation. Um, you can see this  red and white line that cuts through the property.   That is a the Tony Town Greenway, which is a  planned major street. Uh, again, I'll get a   little bit more into that as well. Uh the property  is outside of the priority funding area, but it is   within the Tonytown designated growth area. And so  I have a few different options on how to look at   what's being proposed. I'll just show you all the  options and you can tell me which one you prefer  

as far as the easiest readability. So I tried to  superimpose the contract department storage yard   on the aerial itself. Uh this is showing the  full property. We have one where it's zoomed   in directly around what's being proposed. We have  uh an overall site plan drawing that was provided.   Um and this is how it was provided. And then we  have a zoomedin drawing or engineered drawing.   Is there a preference on which slide I remain  on as I go through the rest of this presentation back back up one this one one more one more I'm I'm in with you on that I'm in with you  on that okay um so what's being proposed is   a 3 acre outdoor storageard and ultimately  what this will be for is to store equipment   from the AVPCO business prior to shipping  out to wherever it's going. Um this is so   I'm going to go back just one more briefly. Um  you can see again this red and white line here   is indicative of the plan major street  that is within the county master plan.   Uh you can see this facility is not in  the way of that roadway uh by any means. Um along with this, so there will be a chainlink  fence that will surround the facility. Uh there   will be no proposed lights. There will be  no proposed signs. Uh if you're looking   at this drawing here, so uh these bolder  looking symbols uh represent a gravel base   uh outside of the facility. So, um you  could see there's a storm water management  

facility to the rear and there's two storm  water management facilities to the front.   Um those lines that are surrounding  the facility show grass swells that   will capture the runoff and direct it to  those storm water management facilities. So, as I mentioned, um this property  is mostly zoned agriculture. A contract   equipment storage yard is a conditional use  within the agricultural zoning district. Uh   the applicant went before the board  of zoning appeals uh on September 26,   2023. Um and the board of zoning appeals  granted uh approval of the conditional use   uh on this property. Now, with that approval,  they did have three conditions of approval.   The first one is that there will be no lighting at  the site. The second is that the hours at the site   will be from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. from Monday to  Fridays with occasional work on Saturdays with the   same hours. And the last one is that there will  be no manufacturing conducted on the site and it   will solely be used for the storage of equipment.  All the information that they've shown in this   site plan aligns with the three conditions of  approval. Access to the property is by way of a   25- foot paved access drive that's connecting the  facility to Krauss Mill Road. Um, as part of this   access drive, I mentioned previously that there  is a stream that runs along Krauss Mill Road. Uh,   this access drive will be crossing over that  stream. And because of that stream crossing,   there were variances that were needed  to be sought after uh from the flood   plane management office as well as the water  resources office. Uh both of those variances   have been approved. Um and the only condition of  approval was within the water resources variance  

that just noted needing to get those necessary  permits from the state and from the feds as well.   The project was brought before uh so it was  initially received March 26th, 2024. Uh and it   went to the technical review committee meeting on  April 22nd, 2024. Uh there were some citizens and   at present at that meeting uh and some of their  main concerns were in reference to um traffic   to the site, what they it may cause as well as  the view from the the property as well. So, um,   looking at the traffic numbers for this project,  um, the travel to and from the property did not   necessitate any traffic impact studies. Um however  during the review by our engineering review uh it   was noted that the piping uh the culvert that runs  under Krauss Mill Road currently uh you can see by   those black lines there um there is an existing  24-in culvert that runs under the roadway now   um and it is undersized as it sits which is  leading to over topping of the roadway and heavy   rainstorms. Uh, as part of this development,  the developer of APCO will be upgrading   that pipe under the roadway to three culverts  instead of just the one to help mitigate that. In reference to landscaping, so one of the  other concerns was the view to and from the   property. Uh, I'm going to skip ahead to uh  the plan sheet that shows the landscaping. So,   um there is adequate landscaping that complies  with the Carol County landscape manual.

Uh and landscaping uh also has a surplus  which is above and beyond the requirements   along Krauss Mill Road and also along the  adjacent residential used properties as well.   The project as mentioned was already before the  planning and zoning commission back in April of   last year. Um some of the the conversation had  with the planning commission was in reference   to the access to the property. Uh how frequent  the business will be utilizing the property. Uh   how the equipment is going to be stored on the  property. Uh but there are also concerns about   the proposed storage yard on the the future Plain  Major Street. Uh unfortunately I I tried to get   representatives from the city of Tonytown um  to to come in and speak on that since this is   their roadway, their plan Major Street. Um they  were not able to make this meeting. However,   they did provide uh formal correspondence noting  that um they believe that this use would not have   any in adverse impacts on the roadway. Uh and  they also mentioned that they had the plan to   relocate this plan major street to better  align with other developments in the area. So going forward just one more uh forest conservation will be addressed by  on-site forest retention. So you can see where   the storage yard area is uh on the Evapco property  that was on the opposite side of Krauss Mill Road.   There is going to be a forest conservation  easement to appease the forest conservation   uh requirements. The soil conservation district as  well as grading and sediment control have granted   approval of the plan. Storm water management  has granted final approval of the plan.  

uh with stormwater management being addressed  via those three submerged grapple wetlands that   are shown in the review. Uh the comprehensive  planning division determined that the proposed   plan is consistent with the 2014 Carol  County master plan 2019 amended the   2010 Tonytown community comprehensive plan and  the Carol County water and sewer master plan.   So pursuant to all of that, uh, staff recommends  that the planning zoning commission approve   the site development plan subject to the eight  conditions that are outlined within the report   and I'm happy to answer any questions you may  have. Uh, as well as Mr. Matias here. Mr. You   need to make a statement or I think David did a  more than adequate job summarizing the project.   The only thing that I would add is that he  mentioned that uh permits were required from   uh both the state and the feds and MDE and the  core excuse me have issued those permits. Okay. Any discussion questions? No. I think we had  when we saw it before we were pretty exhaustive   on our conversation. So, I'm good with what  they're doing. Is there any public comment? If not, I'm ready to entertain a motion. I  I move we approve the site plan as submitted   uh subject to the eight conditions noted in the  staff report. Second. Second. All in favor say   I. Roll call. Should we take Let's take a  individual vote. Gale. Mr. Hub. M. Kirkner.  

Yes. Mr. Lester. Yes. Mr. Smith. Yes. Mr.  Sison. Yes. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Vice Chair. Let   the record reflect. We have four yays and  zero naysay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Cut 25 minutes off the schedule. Do we have any general public comment? If not, do I have a motion to close this  part of the meeting? We're going to take   a break then and work. We have a master  plan work session coming up then. Motion   to close this part of the meeting.  Second. All in favor? I adjourned

We are here to uh for our master plan work session  uh the review of the vision goals from the adopted   plan. This is for discussion only. Have no  public comment on this. Uh Daphne take it away.   Thank you. So um we are moving into the phase of  trying to pull together the actual um pieces to   the master plan update. Um, you'll recall last uh  last meeting we talked about the um the fact that   we're working on creating redlinined versions of  some of the um currently adopted master plan so   that as we're updating that information, you can  kind of track along to see what's changed. Um,   of course talking about what's changed is what  we've been doing for about the last year or so and   that's all the information in your binder here.  So, um, we're now at the point where we're trying   to really put some meat on the bones in terms of  this update, and we thought we would start at the   very top, which is the big picture overriding um,  vision and goals that will kind of direct how the   um, how we view all of the other pieces of the  plan that we're trying to update. Um, so having   digested all of the things that we've shared with  you over the past year or so, um, the feedback   that you've heard from the public, the feedback  that you've heard from the, um, board of county   commissioners, um, and all the information that  we've shared in the discussions that we've had,  

um, I think we're in a good position to start  digging into the vision and goals that currently   exist and seeing which of those might need some  adjusting um to reflect either current um policies   or some of the types of um concerns and topics  that we've been talking about. Um so the vision   and goals were first drafted in 2014. This plan  was um amended in 2019. Um, so I think we've got   at least a 10-year span here where we want to  check and see whether the vision and goals that   are in the currently adopted plan still adequately  reflect uh where you all want to see things going   and what you've heard in the in the process of  kind of getting a read on where we are right now.   Um so before we dive into the conversation I'll  just give a quick um highle view of things.   We have a vision statement that you see in the  italicized blue there and that should really be   um as the the purple box indicates a statement  that defines the preferred future. Um it's it's   supposed to be pretty broad. It's supposed to be  something that you reach for a bit. It shouldn't   necessarily describe exactly everything that's  happening right now or how you see things right   now. It's a vision. It's that preferred future.  Um, but it shouldn't also be completely pie in   the sky unrealistic because then we want to  layer in the goals and the recommendations  

that will help us get closer to that vision.  Um this is followed by I think it's uh 15 yeah 15 goals. Um they all generally relate to  uh a section in the master plan that deals with   a particular topic. Those are not necessarily um  listed here. Some of those topics have a couple   of goals associated with them. Um, but this is  the compilation of all of those in one place. Um, and then the remainder of  this chapter just kind of   identifies the what a policy statement  is, what a recommendation is, and then the   layout of the plan. Those sections will update as  the plan actually comes together. So for tonight,   I'd like to just focus on the vision and goals  and see how far we can get with that discussion. So let's start with the vision. I'm going to um enlarge this just a little bit in  case you want to look at it. Um, can zoom in down   on the bottom right if you'd like. Yeah. Oh, thank  you. 100%. Hit the plus mark. That's the easy way. One more. Love that. All right. So, I'll  read it out loud just um just in case   you're an auditory learner. Uh Carol County  is a great place to live, work, and play.   The county conserves and promotes its unique rural  agricultural heritage, protects its environmental  

resources, and promotes a balanced approach to new  development and economic opportunities consistent   with the fabric of its communities. Carroll  County values and values, sorry, that looks like   a tight its Yeah. values its citizens unaliable  unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property. Pardon me. Yes, let me read that over again. Carol  County values and citizens rights unalienable   Carol County values and citizens unalienable  rights of life, liberty and property are   respected, protected and sustained. And that's  just a citizens unaliable rights, right? So,   I think if you took out the middle part, it would  say Carol County values are respected, protected,   and sustained. With the the piece in between  the two commas, it's adding that in addition   to respecting, protecting, and sustaining Carol  County values, we're also respecting, protecting,   and sustaining citizens unalienable rights  of life, liberty, and property. Got it. Yes. any changes that you would make to that based  on what you've heard in our discussions?   um any concepts for instance that might  be missing in terms of what you've heard   people are hoping for for the future um that  that aren't covered in this in some way.  

I mean, I like it just because it obviously  references the agricultural everything,   but it also too references how we also realize  that we have to have some level of growth,   you know, we have to grow, you know. So,  I I I like it as it is. Yeah, I do too. I think it says that we're going  to do a balanced approach to new   development and economic opportunities.  So, and without naming the communities,   but consistent with the communities within Carol I kind of I like what you have here or what we  have. Um, and to me it it reflects when you had   the individual meetings throughout the county  and the people put their little marks or their   stickies where they wanted to talk about the  things that were most important to them. Um,   I think this mirrors a lot of that. So when  you look at the at the overall welfare of   the citizens of the county and from  where we've come to where we are,   I think this this shows what what our values are  and what we what we're looking for in the future   of Carol County. So I like what you have here and  it teaches people how to stay on the alien board.   I think I need a drink of water or  something. My mouth is just the Carol  

County test. An alienable. It doesn't roll  off the tongue. It sure sounds good though. Any other comments, thoughts? Okay. Well, we'll use that as our um working vision.  Um, of course, as we go through this process,   my hope is that if if we get to a certain point  and something seems like it needs to be revisited   that you all had talked about earlier based on  discussions that you have or better understandings   of certain things, we can always go back and  add things in, take things out, what have you. All right, let's look at our master plan goals now.  Um, and I do just want to kind of highlight   um the very beginning of the that this section  and it underscores kind of why we're here,   what our what our what our um basis for doing  this plan is and that is um first and foremost   to pro promote the public health, safety  and welfare of the general public. So, um,   so that really kind of guides most of what  we're trying to accomplish with a plan and,   um, I think sets the sets the, um,  context for, for these 15 goals. Um,

so goal one, we can just take these in order  unless you want to address them some other   way. No, you're good. you you're doing it. All  right. Um so let's take a look at goal one. I   believe this is in the um chapter that relates to  um interjurisdictional that's another one that's   hard to say. Inalienable. It's just anything  that begins with a vowel. Yeah. Coordination. Um,   and the goal is to promote communication and  coordination between and among the county,   the municipalities, and state and  regional jurisdictions on projects   and issues of mutual concern. Encourage the  involvement of the community in developing,   amending, and implementing the master plan. Anything you would um amend  with that particular goal? I think we did all of that as  we were going through planning   um and looking at projects um issues.  We had open meetings. So I think   um going forward I would think  we should continue doing the same there it I I think I on this topic first of all  I think this is a great goal and I don't think   we should change anything on on that. I do think  it's worth putting in this if there's a section   on goal one or in inter whatever jurisdictional  jurisdictional cooperation. Uhhuh. If there's if  

there's a section on that I I there's something  going on and I don't understand it because I've   never lived in a town. I've never lived in a  jurisdiction. I've only been in unincorporated   cure county as far as I'm concerned, you know.  um we put the fund is in dysfunctional, you know,   I mean, so but my sense is from my little  working group is that things are not as they   should be between the municipalities and the  county and I don't know what's wrong because   everybody talks in code, you know, does that mean  do am I the only one who No, as a matter of fact,   I think you're on the right track here and it's  something we we want to make sure that that as   many people as possible understand this. Carol  County is this unique animal. Yeah. That it's   it's almost like a tale of two cities. We  have the the municipalities that that want   to be autonomous as much as they can, right? They  want to they want to forge their own way. However, when when the zoning was first established, there  was this loosen maybe it's gotten looser. I wish   it was a little tighter where the county and the  municipalities were willing to work together on on   their unique problems. Sometimes that drifts  and and it whose fault it is, we don't know.   It's just something that naturally happens where  the municipalities want to forge their own way,   but then they turn around and say, "We're willing  to to to make our own decisions. However, we sure   need your help from the county." And it and I  think we saw in in some of the presentations that   that came forward here that the municipalities  kind of stepped up a little bit and said uh there  

are some things that we really need your help with  and we'd like to see a little bit better leaison   between maybe like it used to be with certain  counties and you know or certain jurisdictions.   some of the municipalities, you know, can't  afford to do certain things and they made   that very plain. Yeah. Then you go to the Freedom  and the Finburg area. Now we're talking about a   whole different animal, a different Yeah. So, we  have to be cognizant in in this master plan that   um yes, we're we're willing to to to have the  municipalities be autonomous and make their   own decisions, but we'd like to see a little bit  better coordination between the county and the   municipalities, the county and these areas that  we call Freedom and Finburg. And that I think that   came up Yeah. multiple times in our discussions  how we make that any more um poignant in that um   I don't know Daphne but I think that was that was  something that really struck me when when we saw   the vision that some of these municipalities  had and then others came in and said you know   what we're just stuck in gear because we we don't  quite have that coordination that we might need   with the county. So, I I I'd like to emphasize  that a little bit more and stress the fact that   maybe we need to look into that. And yeah, we  we need to there's there's room for improvement   there. I'm glad you brought it up, Peter, because  and and it's it's funny because I mean, we had   we had two towns sitting here and you know, they  did their thing. We go and and it was totally in   the agenda. It was really kind of an opport a lost  opportunity for us to say, "Hey, before you leave,   is there anything you want to say to us?" You  know, let's do this. you know, but but you know,   because they were all here and because anytime  you get, you know, two or more together, we ought  

to have that. Are you okay? Because we're okay.  We don't know what we don't know, you know. So,   I I would and again, I think goal one is is right.  But I think when we get when we drill down in that   section, there ought to be a real exploration  of we we seek to improve what we what we we   can only control what we can control, but within  our county, there's no excuse for us not to have   better coordination and better communication with  our municipalities. And we will do this, this,   and this to improve. And we seek to improve it  by doing this, this, and this. and have a couple   of I don't and again I don't know if we can if  we can establish milestones but there needs to   be some sort of affirmation within that section  Daphany that we seek to improve it and be we want   to be enablers for our the municipalities within  our county to be whatever it is they want to be   um to within you know so long as it's within our  right our visions I guess go ahead I think that   statement is assuming that our county is in taking  the steps to talk to the cities, municipalities.   Um, from what I've seen, they do reach out, talk  to them. Maybe they could do it a little bit more.   And some of the cities, um, municipalities, towns  aren't saying, "Oh, come talk to us." Because they   feel they're able to do it on their own. So, I  think it's um it works both ways, right? Right.   That's what you're saying. And I I agree totally  because I think some of them kind of feel like,   you know, we should be able to do this. And  you know what? with a little bit of help,  

you probably could let us help you. I I know  that in Richard and I's, you know, housing group,   that was kind of a very common theme as well,  a lot of people were essentially saying, well,   if it's just in the county and you essentially  have to go to the municipalities because that's   where the water's at, right? What are we doing  here? It's a moot point because we can make all   the changes we want to for housing in the county,  but if the municipalities are allowed to kind of   do their own thing, and I'm not saying they should  or shouldn't. I'm not saying that at all. So,   that was same thing was a common recurring theme  with us to where it's we have to go there to get   the water, but you know, we're trying to make  these changes and it's only applicable to certain   areas, not in again where, you know, public water  was. See, what what worries me in this, Stephen,   is that um as the county grows, I'm talking about  uh the municipalities as they grow and then as the   county grows as a whole, um all these things are  going to start to blend together shortly or maybe   long term, but I think it's going to be sooner  than later where this person's water might be   affected by this person's this municipality. And  I think we're going to see that. Um, so I think we   just need to encourage more participation of the  municipalities in the in the total plan of the   county. I don't think we can stress that enough.  Yeah. Do they still have that advisory council in   Finburg and the advisory council in Freedom does?  Eldersburg does. Yeah. The freedom the freedom   district citizens association. Yeah, aren't  they? Yes, sort of. Is there a better way? Yeah,  

I'm not sure about freedom sort of sure about the  frequency of freedom. I knowsburg is is there a   better way of being able to work with them or how  they're kind of out there on their own and yeah I   so one of the recommendations that's been floated  a couple of times by different folks is the   um the reestablishment of uh council of  governments or some regular like quarterly   gathering of all of the towns and Freedom and  Binksburg folks and the commissioners and that   would certainly be something that in this  type of chapter for instance we would have   as a specific implementation recommendation.  Um, I wonder if one of the things that you're   picking up on for this partic the way this  particular goal is worded is um the the um subjects of what's being promoted are  communication and coordination. And those   are are fairly weak sounding words. I mean, we can  communicate and coordinate and it sounds very kind   of prefuncter. Um, but what I'm hearing from you  all is maybe some desire for stronger language   around active um engagement with each other and  um seeking solutions and mutual support and that   kind of thing. Is that um the kind of language  that you would like to see in a way and and I'll   get maybe give you an example or I'll ask this  question because I'm not sure I don't know the  

answer. Let's just take New Windsor. Y they've got  a problem and they've had some problems with uh   their their septic systems and trying to upgrade  it. Union Bridge has a terrible problem there.   They they talk about it all the time. What are  they going to do? What I would like to know is are   they on their own when they are asking for grants  or help from the state uh or or do they coordinate   with the county to because I know when Mr. RP  was the mayor of New Windsor, he really worked   hard for New Windsor to get as many grants and  different help on different projects as he could.   Are they on their own or do they coordinate with  our grant writers here in the county for different   things like that? I'm not I don't know. Um I  don't know for sure. I think there is some some   things that that municipalities will handle on  their own. Other things that maybe the county is   um either asked to or or volunteers to coordinate  um with or for them. So, I think it kind of   depends on what the what the actual funding  source may be, you know, and and I'm going to   take it a step further. I mean, I think part of  what ought to be in this plan is what does each   municipality or area, what do we think are the  biggest inhibitors to growth that they would like   assistance in solving? And then we as a county go  to our delegation as a group and say look here are   our priorities for the next 10 years. So that  10 years from now when because we have no term  

limits we'll all be sitting here 10 years from now  when we're all sitting here we'll be able to say   you know what of the 10 things on that list that  our county needed to do we knocked off a couple   of them that were heavy lifts and this that is a  good thing and the result of that is this because   otherwise we're going to sit here talking about  life liberty and pursuit of happiness and that's   great I'm all for life liberty and the pursuit  of happiness but you know there there are some   challenges that all these municipalities have.  Let's identify what they are and as a county,   let's try to, you know, if we can only address  one in the next 10 years because it's so large,   let's flip and do it. You know, whatever  that if it's if it's sewer for New Windsor,   you know, a new sewage system, then well, you  know what? We did it. And I'll look at what   h has happened. It's fantastic up there. So I  guess my question in in terms of this goal and   we can certainly make sure that those kinds  of recommendations are in here but in terms   of this goal my question would be is what  you're describing adequately captured by the   word coordination or does there need to be another  enga like you're saying like engagement or um uh you know I I would say, you know, communication  and coordination among county and municipalities   uh in order to achieve um I don't know in order  to achieve greater goals outlined in this master   plan. I don't know. I you know this is but again  like you're saying you're you're right. I mean I   that is communication and coordination is nice,  right? Yeah. And we I mean we all we all do the  

best we can as in time where we are in time but  I'll give you a couple examples. Um why could we   get a bypass around Hamstead but not Manchester  and look what what's happened. Look at Manchester   now. They they they have a terrible problem with  traffic because a bog turtle showed up. Uh but why   why didn't we just pursue it and just do a fell  swoop and but now we have a problem. A big one a   big problem. Uh that to me is is just one example  of if if everybody could have been coordinated,   then we wouldn't have that Manchester traffic  problem that we do where it limits Manchester from   doing some great things over there in the future.  And that's no dig. I'm just saying that there's   where I would like to see more coordination  where if there was money there to put a put   a bypass around Hamstead, why in the world And  what happened? I don't know. I mean, there's a   lot of history there. You know, everybody blamed  it on that stupid little bog turtle, but it had   to be more than that because we've really got a  problem now. And I hate that that that this mun   municipality is hurting so bad because of that.  But why didn't Hamstead years in the No, getting   it, buying the properties. And there was a limit  as to how much funds were available to be able to   make that all happen. So, um, and then this stupid  little bug turtle, trust me, get into development,   too. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. It's um, and nobody can  find them again. none of us can see in the future.  

But I would like to see that statement made  stronger. Whatever wording we need to need to use,   we can refer to that wording. So, you know, we  urge this or we hope that this I don't know. And   again, you I think Dapany, I think I think goal  one's not broken. Doesn't take a ton of rewrite.   Right. Correct. But but you know in the section  that deals with that, I would love to see a   more specific you know this city would like help  dealing with this. This this municipality would   like help dealing with this. We as a county would  like to seek help dealing with these things. You   know when you know 140 the intersections, three  intersections, whatever. And then at the end of   the decade, we could say, okay, what did we what  did we do uh to move the county forward in those   to to address those problems? You know, the that  bypass may be one of them, right? Uh but again,   you know, it it took 15 years to get the last one  done. Well, the same things happening in Tony Town   now. Go through there at at rush hour and it's  horrible. So we're we just need to to turn key on   some of these places and say I if we're going to  have development in the future, we want to place   it at at the right spots certainly, but don't  create more problems because of that. Let's look   at the whole picture. All right. So um a couple  of my notes and then maybe we can move on to goal   two. I don't want to do all the words. No, the  all the word smithing will will give this to you   a couple of different times, but um but the the  notes that I have are to look for something that  

would that would make this slightly more active um  and potentially oriented towards solving problems,   overcoming challenges, achieving the desired  outcomes. And then um a a specific note that   in that section we should identify the particular  challenges for each of the municipalities that we   want to make as a special focus these efforts  because that's what the c frankly the county is   what we have control over. So that should be the  the the the first thing on there. But in so far as   we're saying work together, I think we should put  the mut municipalities primary hurdles on there,   too. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, it  does. Janice, are you cool? Yeah. Good. Okay. Um, okay. Let's go on to and I'll I'll  put some language together and you can   look at it again. Let's go  on to goal number two. Um, here's that word again. Sure. I'm going to say it  slow. Ensure respect for unalienable individual   rights. Encourage community involvement in  planning in an open two-way communication   process. Encourage the involvement of the  community in planning and implementing   the master plan. Provide participants with a  balanced perspective on planning goals while   promoting the need to respect private property  rights and accurately advise participants of   the tradeoffs between various forms of  development based on real world effects. I like that.

I think that is what we do, what we've done. Um,   and I think we encourage all that community  involvement. I think it's um pretty That's a pretty good goal. Well, that's  a pretty good goal. It is. Yeah. Now,   there's plenty of room for identifying specific  recommendations that could make these maybe more   achievable or what have you. But as as a high  level goal, um it touches on a lot of the things   that I think we've talked about in terms of trying  to make sure everyone's voices heard and and we   don't want to lose sight of the individual's  rights. So that puts it right out there. Okay. Good to move on. All right, goal number three. Um, we're starting  to get into some of our uh natural resources   topics. So, protect and enhance the water quality  of Carroll Countyy's rivers, streams, reservoirs,   and aquifers. comply with applicable state and  federal requirements related to water quality and   quantity and maintain and protect adequate water  supplies to serve current and planned development. This is a lot of what that uh what the was  Yeah, it is all about. Yeah. And in fact,  

if I I don't have my plan with me, but I do  believe that um this may be even associated   with that water resources element. And and I was  just going to say, I mean, I I don't have anything   to add to that other than I I my sense is there's  a lot that's kind of come down from the state in   this area. Mhm. And if we need to enhance this  in some way to reflect those things that have   come down for the state. I'm just not sure I I'm  on top of it enough to comment on that. You know   what I mean? I mean, I think the one to comment  is sitting in the back room, back of the room. So,   you know, if he's cool with it being this broad  that I'm I'm cool with it, too. But I just it just   seems to me like there's a lot of noise around  this. Mhm. Um, so I don't know. Don't we get like   like with the water resource we heard tonight  throughout the year when these changes come,   we get to see them. Correct, Chris? Yes. So, um,  and certainly it's typically above our heads. So,   and I think we kind of captured it where it  says comply with applicable state and federal   requirements. I'm just saying if we need  to strengthen this in some way because of   stuff that's coming down from the state, you  know, tell us what we need to do and let's,   you know, reflect it in that. But that Yeah,  we don't want to be in you there's I have two   ways to look at that, right? The the first way  to look at it is I think we do a good job. The   second way is if it's bad law coming down from  the state, do we really want to encode that in   our own law even though it's coming down that  that's a funny thing to encode something that   you don't necessarily agree with? Do we have a  choice? I think you you have to comply anyway,  

but you don't have to necessar you can be sort of  uh compliant but not um endorsing of it. You know   what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I'm passively incomp  Yeah. I'm passively not compliant. Janice, I don't know. I think there's one thing Carol  County has done is is the water resource element.   Um, not only the water quality, but the the  water resource plans and the developments and   all have really been enhanced and enhanced and  enhanced. Um, wow. I don't know how much more   we could take. Yeah, as a matter of fact,  it seems to me like we're in front of it,   right? And I would hope and I will say that um  where my farm is located, given the example,   I remember when a good heavy rain would flood my  meadows. I'd love to see a good heavy rain after   last couple years, but I don't see that anymore.  So the storm water ponds, the storm water element,   uh all the work that's been done has made a  difference. I've seen it good. And because   there's a lot of development that is above  my and I'm part of the the drainage area from   Westminster moving that way and I've seen it  with the development that's occurred. Uh the   storm water has really helped. So we we've  stepped up with that. I don't think we have   to add one more thing to to that part of  it. Maybe we've done more than we should,   but uh it it's made a difference. Yeah. Well,  how about if um I made a note to maybe just   verify that that what's written here is consistent  with what's in the if there's any additions or  

anything like that, we can bring those back to  you. But I think otherwise um it's pretty much   capturing what the the intent of that element.  I know throughout the development process when   things change the developers have to change it  to coincide with what this is. So Mhm. It's Yep. All right. Let's move on to goal  number four. This is talking about   um community facilities. So to the extent  feasible, provide adequate and appropriate   community investment plan funds to support public  facilities and services. provide an affordable,   coordinated, and comprehensive system  of community educational opportunities,   facilities, and resources, including schools  and libraries, which enhance our communities. didn't we just see all that in  the community investment plan? So,   I think you all do a good job  with providing that information. Richard, what do you think? Should should   we have something in there about  working with the state to help fun Good.

Just make it clear that the state  will be involved in this also. Mhm. Anything else? Okay, let's look at goal number five. This is focused on transportation. So provide  a safe and functional intracount transportation   system that promotes access and mobility  for people and goods through a variety of   transportation modes. So this would be both um  private automobile, it could be bicycle, um could   even be pedestrian, it could in include our um  uh paratransit system, those kinds of things. Anything that's missing from this goal? I think sometime I would be interested in  hearing from whatever department it would   be about transportation within the county.  What? Because I know you saw a lot and now   you don't see a whole lot. So, and I realize  it's Are you talking Are you talking about  

the inter the inner county transit system?  Well, just transit in general for within the   county that's available. But yes, I think it  would be something beneficial for us to see. Bear with me for one second. I think we do  have some information on that in the I'm   sure we da handbook. I'm just trying to see if  I can quickly point you in that direction. We   can certainly though make sure that um I see  it hidden here. Chapter one, seven, chapter Oh, I'm going in the wrong direction. I see chapter 7 has um a lot of information in  the master plan. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um um yeah, we   have in the in this big binder that you guys have  um there was from the February 5th, 2025 meeting,   we talked about uh that was the data handbook, the  part two of the data handbook. And there is some   um information on page it looks like page 24 and  25 on our um oh it starts on 23 sorry on our Carol   uh Carol transit system. Okay. Um yeah, so I can,  like I said, I can certainly have um somebody come  

in and share um directly on the Carol Transit  system, but in the meantime um that's where   you'll find Okay. Can you give it to me one more  time? I'm sorry, Jeffy. Sure. So um the the data   handbook part two which was given to you at your  u discussed at the February 5th meeting and page   23 of that document is where that starts. Yeah.  Um I'll have to look. I'm sure I got it. I know   we were away then because that was we were in Key  West. Yeah. I mean I think there there are there   there are a few routes that are available and you  can see some of the writership data. There are   also some routes like um down in South Carol that  um were discontinued and I my understanding is it   was they were discontinued because of the wrership  numbers but um you know that may be something that   um I know we did receive some comments as part of  the open houses from people in that area who were   interested in reinstating that. Um, hasn't  that been replaced by the these, you know,   like Carol Lutheran Village and they have  their own? They do. Okay. But that's specific   to them. So if you're outside of that village,  it's not something you can get. Um, so yeah,   just a thought. This is a hard one to get a handle  on because how Carol County is set up as far as   the topography itself. No, you look at like the  the Tapsico area and and uh all the way up in   the Tony the Tony town area and the the line. I  mean it that's a tough one. That's a tough one.  

Yeah. You could have a a transportation systems  for say Tony Town, but what good does that do if   everybody wants to go to Westminster? You know, it  that that is just a tough road to hoe. Yeah. So,   I don't know how you could define it any better  than this. You just have to leave it the way it   is and do the best you can. That That's how I  view this. Oh, I wasn't looking to change this   just to get No, I understand that a little, but  it's just I think this is one you have to keep as   general as possible. Yeah. Well, it's very it's  very um the way it's worded is all-encompassing   and the the kinds of things that it is meant to  address are are so varied that it has to be pretty   all-encompassing. Um, now I will say we we have  a transportation master plan that has been done   um in the last few years that we'll be looking  to um roll into this master plan and we can   re-evaluate what's recommended in that document in  light of this goal and other things that we that   we discussed during the master plan update. But  um that is a significant way that this goal can   be implemented as projects that are identified  in that a um transportation master plan can get   done. Yeah, I know there are lots of smaller  assisted living um nursing homes throughout   the county of course that don't have their own  transportation mode. So I think it' be beneficial  

to know and I'm sure the county gives those  places um information on who and what may come. Okay. All right. I'm good. Number six.  So, keep this one as is for now. Yes,   ma'am. Yes. All right. Goal number  six, this one is short and sweet,   but there's a lot there. Incredibly complex. Uh,   encourage a range of housing types, density,  and affordability. I think that's good enough. This is this is another almost a non-definable  Oh, yeah. What is affordability? You know,   nobody's ever been able to tell me what affordable  housing is. Okay. So, it's it depends on a certain   demographic. So, what's what's affordable in one  area cannot be I I like what we have. Let's keep   it that way. I I'm gonna push on this for a second  if I can, Rob. That's what we're here for. Yeah.   You're the man. I appreciate it. Um, I I y'all  are reading the same stuff I'm I'm reading. And   I think there are two things that are kind of  the Manhattan project for the next 10 years   for our country, and it's not just Carol County.  One's energy, which we can't solve in this room.   And the second's housing affordability. And um  I mean every realtor I talked to I mean Janice   I mean this is and so for us to say you know I I  act I would like to see us kind of dig in once we   once we kind of get pretty far into this. I would  like to see us dig in on a housing affordability  

and consider some things outside the box um  along the lines of and I'm not talking about   mobile home parks. I'm I I I don't want to create  a slum. That's my biggest fear here. I don't want   to create a slum. But I do think that if we came  up with a zone of housing that allowed for and   I'm talking I mean when I talk outside the box  I'm talking about container fix fixed homes, not   and I'm not nothing on wheels, nothing that you  roll in and plug it in and and you could roll out   the next night in the middle of the night. I'm I'm  talking about permanent homes for people who want   to live and work here and teach here, EMTs, that  kind of things. It if you want to live and work in   this county, we've got to come up with a solution.  And and and it it requires us to allow for things   that I don't like, Malaf. I mean, I don't like  modular housing. I don't like container homes,   but I but if we don't at least think about it and  talk about it, again, I don't like it. Right. So,   so here's here's where you're thinking outside  the box, and I'm glad, but this is where the   municipalities can step up and work with us  because where where are the open spaces areas?   where what has deteriorated that we could could  fix and do better. Where I get worried about this   kind of language is that we've always connected  affordability with subsidization. No. Yeah. No.   And that's and that is not what I want to see in  Carol County. I want people to be able to live   freely, make their own decisions. So affordability  I'm okay with. Subsidization I'm not. I'm sorry.   Can we not go ahead talk about that um you know  from a fair housing standard? But I I think and I  

brought it up to Tom Gordon um and he kind of took  it and has talked about it some. If you ever have   the opportunity to go over to McGomery County  and see some of the developments that they do,   they they encompass everybody. They encompass  multi-million dollar properties. They encompass   homes that are for people that are middle inome.  They encompass homes that are specifically for   fire teachers. Um, and they do it in a way that  you you go from one development directly into the   next and it all blends very harmon harmoniously.  Thank you. We are really struggling. So, um, but I   would love to see us look at something like that  and encourage the developers, not to say, "Oh,   I've got, you know, a hundred acres and I just  want to build multi-million dollar homes because   that's what" But you need to have them work on  it and there's probably some grants that end   have to be given. But it's worth and I think  Howard County might do it to a degree too,   but it's worth looking and exploring those avenues  for the future because that's where affordability   comes in. We lose so many people that go to  Pennsylvania because they can't afford it here.  

Well, and and I I agree entirely with you, Janice,  and I think that there is a um and we and and if   we think about it, we would be hardressed not  to realize that we're living it because we have   not seen a wellthoughtout mass. We we've seen  we've got one, we won't name it, but we've got   one that's coming that's single family homes and  but they're not starter homes. I mean, let's not   let's not kid ourselves there. It's we have not  seen anything of what we're talking about here. We   haven't we haven't seen it in the entire time I've  been on this commission. The only and and the fact   that the only thing we're seeing is over 55 homes  is also concerning to me. As a guy who's over   55 and headed that direction, I'm I'm glad that  we're building an inventory. But you know what?   On either end of the spectrum on the We haven't  seen anything in a long time that was affordable,   and we haven't seen anything in a long time that  was well thought out and that was high-end. And   we we're getting the the mediocre middle, which  is really concerning to me because we don't we   don't want to be a mediocre county. And by design,  because of things that we're doing, the unintended   consequences are we're in the mediocre middle.  And Ralph, we've never wanted to be mediocre.   Nowhere in our I think we all agree. Nowhere in  our master plan in our vision and goals is to say,   "Hey, I want to be mediocre. This is what we're  shooting for." I I don't think I mean I I don't   want to pigeon hole um and say we're mediocre  because if you look at some of the properties out   there they're million plus and keep escalating.  Of course, if you are a scholar of real estate  

and have seen how there's peaks and valleys and  it's always going to be that way and it's happened   numerous times, I suspect somewhere probably in  the next several years, we'll be seeing a valley   come back around. A lot of this is dictated on the  cost of land, right? Yeah. And it's so expensive   to even have the property. So that to make it  worthwhile, you have to build a big house on it.   I mean, well, it's it's it's weird how we're doing  this. If you have enough ground, I mean, we're not   going to solve that here, but if you have enough  ground that you can do, you can divide it up and   have bigger homes and less homes. I've heard  people say, "Well, you know, we're gonna build   the bigger homes because then it opens up the  homes for the people that can afford the homes the   others are moving from. Move up." Yeah. Well, and  that's all well and good, but lots of people that   need to buy a house may not just want somebody  else's house. They may want their own to start.   um and and start with a smaller home. So, Janice,  what what has what has caused this? Have we have   we tightened up our our our U code so much that we  can't even entice builders to come in and do those   mixeduse developments? Is that what is that what's  going on here? that that we that that they do it   in in McGomery County, but we've we've tightened  things up so much here that developers aren't   interested in doing those mixed us. We don't have  a section of our code that allows for it for those   major developments. Yeah. That that we we don't  have what have we pushed? We don't have a section  

of our code that allows for someone to come in and  say, "Hey, look, I know this was zoned a um but I   think I could pay to get sewer down and water  down to it. And I would like to develop retail   along the the highway. Behind that, I'd like to  put some starter homes. And behind that, I'd like   to put some some but they're all these are going  to be single family homes. We don't have anything   in our code that allows for somebody to come  in. Maybe maybe you could do it under the putt.   You maybe maybe but I doubt it with a lot of those  things are and I didn't mean Brook is in those big   counties those major developments all that those  major developers they want one thing and that   is tax breaks right and if you look at the tens  of millions of dollars in tax breaks that let's   say the uh Port Coington development was I mean  you're talking tens and tens and tens of millions   of dollars and from what I understand they got  the city to pay to put all the infrastructure in.   Yeah. You want us to develop this? You're going  to put all this money up. You're going to give   us these breaks. So that's that's the problem.  And they're they're just you're not going to get   and and and you know, Richard and I in our group  too was the same thing talking about, okay, well,   you want starter homes, you got to build them  in the municipalities where the water are. Well,   but then you also run into the issue where  okay, well, now we're doing a pres. And if   you look a lot of the municipalities, they're  kind of segregated. So then you have to build   houses outside of that. They're on wellwater  mde. You have to have what a minimum of three   acres. You're not building a house for $400,000 on  three acres of land. So that's the big issue. And   and I've seen I see it in the city all the time.  Okay. Well, we're going to give you tax breaks,   but you have to give us 20% of the housing has  to be uh you know for low income this or that.   The rest of it market rate charge whatever you  want. I mean, there's literally a building in   the city right down on Key Highway where the upper  level apartments are $10,000 a month, but to get  

those tax breaks, they also have a percentage of  them that are low-income housing. So, you have   that mix and and that's the biggest thing. Not  saying the county can afford it, can't afford it,   but if you want that type of development, you  know, you're not going to get a big developer   in here unless basically they never have to pay  property taxes because even Port Coington, it's   tens of millions of dollars and it's like for 10  15 years where they don't have to pay a penny of   property tax to Baltimore City. And by then, which  Kevin Plank's already sold what he didn't develop,   and he'll sell the rest of it, so he'll just  that that's what those developers do. They hold   the buildings just long enough to and then So, I  mean, that's just a big part of it. So, I mean,   obviously we on goal six, it's it's a great goal,  but I do think and I and I'm of the yoke that it   at at either end of the spectrum when we drill  down on this as a section, the housing section,   I do think it's it's a Manhattan project for us  because we need to come up with a way to allow for   someone because Richard's not wrong. I mean that  that the the there are only two ways to approach   this and and one of one of it is the cost of it  and um we either have to help lower the costs,   shorten the development cycle, the permitting  process and all those kinds of things, but we   also need to be willing to allow for these modular  homes that you can come in and you can build for   $70,000. They're they're not, you know, four  bedroomedroom, three and a half baths homes. their   two-bedroom, onebath homes. I mean, you know,  and that's I as a guy who again, I don't want to   develop a slum. That's not what we want to do. But  we do want to we do want to enable people to come  

work here, live here, aspire to live here, aspire  to move up. I don't know how else to do it if we   don't think outside the box. And so, there needs  to be something in that section on housing within   our master plan. The goal I think is fine and  I'm fine with you on Ralph, but I think we really   ought to drill down and and you know what? We  think about it. We propose something and we don't   like it. We did the best we could, but I think  this is what the state is asking us to do because   again, we we've we talk about affordability. We  know what affordability is. Listen, let's not   throw up our hands and say we don't know. We know  what it is and we don't have it. You know what it   because it's not 400,000. That's not what people  when people say affordable and and by the way and   and it I I won't go for the fair housing act. I  won't say it. I'm I'm I you know we're not going   there. I you know we are a veteran community. We  want it to be nice, safe. We want people to live   here who want to live here, right? Bring them.  Let's bring one and all. Life liberty pursuit.   Let's do this. These modular homes, you can't tell  the difference. Now my they've come a long way,   haven't they? neighbor. My next door neighbor  built a modular home and nobody knows that it's   a modular home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again,  you we can we we I just want to There's I do work   for a bank over in East. It's the largest bank  headquartered in in in Maryland. And there's a   guy on the board who runs a nonprofit and this is  what he does. and I've been I've been talking to   him his into his ear for the last six months and  I'm telling you we c we as a county we may not   want to do it. That's one that's do we can do it  we may not want to do it. I think we as a group   ought to put forward some ideas that say, "Hey,  we think we can do this." Now, then the question  

is to the commissioners, do you want to do it?  That's not our call. That could be their call,   but I think we ought to we ought to at least, you  know, you built a modular home. You're saying it's   a good home and you wouldn't know. I look, I'm  telling you, I think we can do this as a group.   And I don't mean to be the pep talk about this,  but I think again, I think this is we've been   talking about this. How often have we been heard  affordability? the entire time that we've had this   this master plan, we've been talking about it.  That's as a realtor, that's all we talk about.   We're going to um meet the delegates Monday  night. We're going to Annapolis. And you know,   that's one of our key talking points for everybody  down there. And and a lot of it too with with the   county like you know I'm a elder millennial but  the younger millennials you're getting into Gen   Z and you know because look as an elder millennial  we we've not saying compar but we've been through   a lot from the great recession to everything else  that's kind of happened throughout you know when   is let's say your your wealth building phase right  so a lot of people of the Gen Z and the younger   millennials they don't want those big houses they  want a house that hey I can raise a family and I   can afford it, but you know what? We can go afford  to go walk downtown and and or wherever that might   be. And I also think, you know, there might be a  little tonedeafness with a lot of the developers   that do come in here. Well, everybody wants a  5,000 square foot, you know, million plus dollar   house. And it's like they don't. And you look at  it now like where my family is. Okay. So, we're   in that prime phase where he would say, "Well,  you're going to move up into the next house." No,   I'm not. I don't like cutting the grass. I have  now, much less moving into something bigger. So,   there's not going to be that upward mobility  because my generation, we don't want that. I want  

to be able to go away for a weekend and not have  to worry about a, you know, $2,000 a month heating   bill and, you know, paying a $5,000 a month  mortgage for just to say I have this big house. We   see a lot of families um parents buying a house,  kids either living in the main part and parents   low or adding on. So, yep. It's it's definitely  more generational that they're looking for that   type housing. some of them because they know their  children aren't going to be moving up anytime in   the near future. Quite frankly, then we So, we  we've talked we've talked for 20 third 25 minutes   on a nine on a a nineword sentence. And again,  I think the phrase is fine, but there's more   there that we got to do. and and I just there's a  whole lot to unpack in the recommendations as to   how you would encourage a range of housing  types, density, and affordability. Sorry,   my bad. My bad. And I haven't I haven't heard  anything in this conversation yet that would add   any specific boundaries around this like in order  to do such and such or whatever. I think it sounds   like the broader the better at this point because  all kinds of ideas then can be on the on the um   table for consideration. plus what the state owe  the Yeah. Yeah. We don't we don't want to think   about it. Yep. Okay. Uh so goal six we'll keep as  is. Um goal seven preserve at least 100,000 acres  

of agricultural land to support the production  of agricultural products and promotion of related   agra business. you, Ralph. Ralph, do you want  to put something in there about more strategic   approach towards I sure do. Okay, there you go.  Bring it up. Um, to me, this is too broad. Um,   and I've I've preached this for for quite a while  now. I've had a couple people pick up on it. Um,   I I think we we really need to be more strategic  on on what we do. We talk about affordability.   We we got affordability problems right here  also because um if if we don't if we don't do a   strategic plan on how we're going to move forward  with agriculture land preservation then we're   wasting our money. We're wasting our time and our  talent. We got to have something better than what   I would call a shotgun approach. I think we need  to to to put the word strategic in there. Um I   don't think we should should have agricultural  preservation on areas where where it's easy to   would be easier to access main roadways like 140  where there's certain areas that could be used for   purposes other than egg. Uh I see it happening.  You know, we talk about having some of these uh   municipalities in. Well, some of them um it was a  good thing because how many nice affordable homes   do you think we're going to have next to a quarry?  Now, egg preservation has been the greatest  

protector of the quaries anywhere. We'd have all  kinds of lawsuits of the quaries blasting people   out of their homes. I mean, it's it's It happens.  They run them out of water, things like that. So,   a preservation, I've I've said this from day  one, the quaries should be adding money to the   egg preservation program because we protected the  quaries. Union Bridge, New Windsor. Look at that   whole Wakefield Valley area and and then all the  way up through Union Bridge where these quaries   are doing nothing but expanding. And that's  they're going to keep expanding. So in that   regard, we're doing a good thing. Okay. So if we  could, we have our priority preservation areas. We   should key on them. We should not put egg press  where it would hinder further good uses of that   property. And believe me, I want to see as much,  you know, I'm so upset about covering a land with   certain elements that are out there now. You know  what I mean? That's that is a disgrace. But as far   as strategic planning on a reservation, we need to  do it or or our money is wasted. We don't want to   waste. We want to use our money as as as strategic  as we can. Give you an example. And I don't want   to hold this up, but I'll give you this example.  The values we started out in the a preservation   program preserving land for five, six, $700 an  acre. Now we're up to what, four, five, six,   $7,000 an acre. But in the meantime, the state has  never changed their formulas. So if we put up if   we put up a million dollars, the state will put  up 1.3. And then they moved it up one time to $2  

million. If we put up 1.3 million, the state put  it up to $2 million. You go over to Rural Legacy,   that's a grant program. And the max that when I  was in here was $500,000. How much is that going   to help us? So that has never the state has never  kept up with the values that we're seeing now. So   then we have to add county money to make all this  thing all this work. So, should we be spending big   money on 23 acres somewhere instead of pulling the  money and and and looking for a 100 acre? That's   right. And that's what there's where I think we  should define this language a little bit more.   And I'm not as worried about 100,000 acres as I am  strategically putting land under easement in the   right spots. That's right. strategically preserve  at least. There's my Now, how we're going to   change that language, I'm not sure. I I would love  to see the word strategic in there. Strategically   preserve at least 100%. If we don't do it, we're  going to fall behind way more than we are now.   Well, the and with any program, Ralph, the last  10 15% is where you make the most impact. That's   where the plan should come together. Sure. And  that's where we are. We're at 75,000. So, if we   don't start, you know, getting people acclimated  to this is what we're trying to do. We're trying   to put the bow on this thing to make it to where  it worked and the outcome was what we all wanted   it to be. If we don't start doing it now, we're  not going to get there. So yeah, the the the   last 10 15% is going to be the most important to  make sure that this program was successful and   it's going to be certainly expensive and but it  just drives me crazy if you have an an area like   this and there's no egg present much in that  area and you see one right in the middle of it  

and you say why why we should never you know and  maybe I made some of those mistakes. We all have,   but I think we're so far along with the program.  We've been so successful with the program,   we can now be strategic. We start to need to  really define it. Agreed. How are we going to   make this work? Agreed. Can we take land that's  in a preservation out of a preservation? You Well,   that depends. At one time, I would say absolutely  not. But it depends on who holds that easement.   Well, so if if the state use your your example  there, there's that little piece that really   doesn't serve any purpose at all. Take that out  of a preservation. Well, it would it would be   costly. It would be costly to do that because if  you do, you don't just pay the person back on how   much money they put in the program. It's based on  current values. So, no, I I I don't even want to   go there at all. I don't even want to talk about  it but it depend but Richard it depends on who   holds the easement. The state holds the easement  DNR holds the easement which is part of the state   co-held with the county. Okay. The county has  their own easements held by that the county   commissioners. The county commissioners hold  sway on that. So, you know, at one time I would   have told the the crowds, no, it is a permanent  easement. That's what it says. With the with the   power lines going through, solar on a and all this  stuff that's going on, I'm starting to wonder. So,   there's the answer. I' I'd like to see something  strategic in there. Gotcha. So, um, so we can  

suggest some rewarding that would wrap in the  idea of strategic preservation as well as um,   not hemming in the municipalities. Um, and part  of the strategic aspect being building off of and   filling in existing blocks of preserved land. Does  that sound right? Well, I think we should actually I I' I'd love to see the word in there. uh you  know, we have priority preservation areas. Mh.   And uh whether we put it in this language or we  go on down later on in in more of a detailed part   of the plan itself where we talk about, you know,  building the contiguous acres, you know, keying   on priority preservation areas and rural legacy  areas. I mean 08 goal eight addresses some of   that. Well, it does. Yes. So, we could look at um  so goal eight is in the um I think it's a separate   chapter of the master plan that's specifically  for the priority preservation area. There's   nothing to say that we couldn't sort of combine  those. Yeah. And look at um well, there was   talk priority preservation area as part of that  strategic approach to land preservation and and   there was there was talk in that committee about  expanding the priority preservation areas. That   would be a hard lift. That would really be a hard  lift. You'd have to have some good good strategic  

reasons for doing that. I think we're we've done  well on creating the priority preservation areas   that we have, including the upper pepsico and the  the uh little pipe creek world legacy areas that   that's a big chunk of this county. And I can't  remember, I did calculate this not too long ago.   um to figure out what percentage we are at.  So the goal eight is to preserve 80% of the   undeveloped land in the PPA and I did calculate  it. I knew that one time. I can't remember what   I calculated it out to, but there's plenty of  land still that could be preserved within that   um within that target of 80%. Um so I could take a  stab at trying to merge those two goals. Or maybe   it's maybe it's um separated by a semicolon or  something like that. relate them in some way to   one. I don't see I don't see where we need goal  seven and goal eight as separate. I I Why would   we have those separate? Yeah, I think I think  we could merge those two. Yeah, I think they   were just separate because uh the PPA was treated  as the as its own separate element slashchapter,   but it doesn't have to be that way. I don't  think it does. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. Um   and and then goal eight, I mean, we can have it as  a goal, but that really can't be changed unless we  

wanted to bump it up because the um priority  preservation area uh legislation specifically   states that that's that's the goal of the priority  preservation area. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um Okay. So, I'll I'll see what we can  come up with in terms of maybe merging   those two together and adding in this notion  of strategic preservation. um without losing   this this idea that's kind of in the second  part of that goal seven which is to support   the production of a agricultural products and  promotion of related agra business. All right. Um are you guys good to keep rolling along for a  little bit? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Uh let's go on   to goal nine then. This is looking at parks. So  the goal is to provide an affordable, coordinated   and comprehensive system of public parks, public  and private parks, recreational facilities and   programs and open space that will enhance our  communities. And that's being done basically   through program open space. So I mean you may as  well leave it the way it is. Excuse me. Because we   only have so much money from program open space.  Yeah. Although I mean if we were to take a little   bit more proactive approach in terms of say um  developments and perhaps what types of things we  

um request when developers make proposals.  You could look at um creating some sort of   um open space network or um public space,  public spaces, public amenities that   um become part of this sort of system. Um but but  to to the park and Rex's point, when we do that,   they don't they don't necessarily want to take  control of that. They we're just saying as a part   of as a part of the development process, we're  going to look at trying to incorporate more open   space and activity spaces within developments.  Is that what we're saying? That that not that   are not necessarily maintained by the county?  Well, yes and no. It depends on what you are   trying what you're trying to achieve. Okay. So  if you're trying to achieve a system of parks   that are open and accessible to anyone in the  community, then there has to be some element   of public ownership to it because I think most in  in most other cases that's private land owned by   a homeowners association who can say who can and  can't use it, access it, Right. All right. I see   what you're saying. So, I mean, there are there  are pros and cons to that. You know, if if you're   if you're simply trying to create open space so  that it's not developed, then that can work. If   you're looking to create a network that the entire  community can take advantage of, then that's less  

um uh less successful in that model. Doesn't the  Department of Recreation and Parks now when they   get X amount of dollars in program open space,  don't they determine at that point where they   want to put it? Yeah. You know, going to land  owners that that live right next to open space   trying to expand that. I mean, we've been doing  that for years exactly like that. So, I mean, It's really up It's really up to how much money  you have and then a department determining where   they want to try to acquire land to either add  on to existing Yeah. or new areas. Yeah. So,   you know, just leave it the way it is. Yeah. And  this also encompasses um recreational facilities   and programs. And while we don't while there are  some public recreational facilities and obviously   public programming that happens um there are  also uh things like golf courses for instance   that contribute to our recreational landscape but  are privately owned. So, um I think it's trying to   find sort of a a balance there between public and  private, what's offered and what's what's lacking, but I I it seems like all of that  is covered under goal nine. I don't   know if you guys have anything you would  want to modify. I don't have anything to  

add. Okay. Can we back go back to number  six, please? Sure. I'm being sarcastic. Number one. Okay. Go 10. Also sort of vague, but um Oh, thank  you. Um needs me here. I can do it. There we go.   preserve the county's historic, cultural,  scenic, and architectural heritage. Um, I have to dig into what the specific  recommendations are in this section, but that's   a pretty that's a pretty broad goal and and pretty  hard to do because pretty much everything Yeah.   out there is part of the county's history. Well,  and and the the the state maintains a an inventory   of historical properties. And it's amazing what's  on that inventory because, you know, I I actually   went through that and made a list of everything  within the Freedom District that was historical.   You It It was amazing. There there are there are  places listed that don't even they've fallen down   and they've been removed. They've been carted  off, but they're listed on the Maryland Inventory   of Historic Places. Yes, ma'am. They're still  on there. And um but they've been removed for   years. So, um I mean, you'll talk about uh three  bay home a three bay home such as say, you know,   it it hasn't been there for years. So, um but but  that has nothing to do with here or there. I I I   love history. I I applaud this. At the same time,  we need it would be great to get some retired  

people who love history to go through there and  help them reinventory that because it needs some   major updating. I mean, I could send you what I  did. It's I mean, like, it's not 50. It's like 170   parcels that are in the Freedom District. It's  It's crazy. I think society out the county. Do   they do they deal with this at all? The who? I'm  sorry. Historical Society, historic preservation.   Yeah. No, they're primarily chartered to just  deal with Union. Well, so we have the Carol   County Historical Society, which I think has a  a pretty broad Yeah. mission. Um, and then you   have the Historic And then we have the Historic  Preservation Commission, which only has authority   in historic districts, of which we have one, which  is in Uniontown. Yeah. Um, so but this section   of the plan talks about a lot of other I mean it  talks about our historic properties. It also talks   about the um heritage tourism initiatives that the  county is party to principally the heart of the   civil war heritage area and um the journey through  hallowed ground national heritage something. Um so   it it does cover a lot not just bu old buildings.  Um to me what the what some of the the challenges   with this goal is the word preserve. Um because  I think in some cases yes you do want to preserve  

those things. Um, but also sometimes you  might want to promote or enhance them. Um,   so would you do preserve, promote, enhance? I  mean, really, I mean, because it it does hit the   nail on the head a little. I think just preserve,  promote, enhance the county's historic, cultural,   scenic, and architectural heritage. Kind of  does make it more all-encompassing, I guess. There you go, Steve. Way to go. Say yes. Yeah. Okay. You guys good with  that? Yes, ma'am. All right. It's easier as time go. Hey, if finds another  Come on, hang in there. We've got five more.   Okay. Goal 11 um gets brings us back to some  environmental resources. So this is protect,   maintain and restore where feasible  the environmental resources and natural   ecosystems in the county by promoting land  use practices that are in balance with and   minimize the effects on the natural environment  subject to appropriate costbenefit analysis right   beaver alley. As president of the society  for the preservation of the bog turtle,   I would like to add just kidding. No. Was that  the We just put a picture there. Yeah. Yeah.   I I'm for the bog turtle. I want to be clear. I  love reptiles. I love amphibians are my jam. Well, what did you say? The little bog turtle.

I think that was the turtle because there  was a bridge at the bottom of corn. For   the longest time, they couldn't finish it. And  somebody said it was like a bug or something,   but I guess it was a turtle. Bug.  Bug. Turtle. They found some down   off of Barlet Road that prohibited a road  from going with Yeah. Because of the bug,   of course, bypass. Nobody could see the  stupid things. I'm I'm joking about this,   but in all seriousness, I'm all for all  of that, and I have nothing to add. Okay. Uh goal 12 is oriented to mineral resources and  um we do have a mineral resources element of our   plan. So this is to protect certain mineral  resources of current and future economic   importance from preemptive land uses and to  ensure availability for recovery in a manner   that minimizes impacts to surrounding areas and  for reclamation purposes assure recovery to an   environmentally sensitive aesthetically pleasing  condition. And that's essentially what our mineral   resource overlay zoning suite does. Um it ident  it's identified where particular recoverable   resources are where they can be actively recovered  where they could potentially be recovered and then   what your notification area is for um areas  surrounding the buffer area surrounding those.

Anything to add or change on goal 12? No. Okay. Um, goal 13 is a multi-part goal to promote  a healthy economy and additional employment   opportunities by A supporting the  retention and expansion of existing   businesses including aggra business  through sensible land use policies.   B. Focusing on development and redevelopment  of existing vacant and underutilized commercial   and industrial properties. C providing land  appropriately located and zoned for a variety   of types and intensities of new economic  development activities. And D maintaining   a desirable balance between economic  development and residential development. We kind of address these  things on a casebyase basis. I don't see any problem with the way it is now. I've mentioned this before. I would love to see  some sort of, you know, within the not within   the goals fine within that section. I would like  to see some objective measurements that we as a   county have said we would like to have you know  this kind of growth you know that this you know   a number of and but we in order to do that we  also have to identify places where we think   it's appropriate to be able to achieve it. you  know, if we want to have 200,000 square feet of   industrial space absorbed in a in a year, we need  to identify where we think that could go. And it's  

probably down there by I7 and not, you know,  up off I40 towards Pennsylvania. So, you know,   being able to identify it and make it happen. I I  just I think, you know, promote a healthy economy,   that's great. I would like to see some sort of  objective markers that we've created that says,   okay, this is how we're going to try to do it.  Now, the funny thing about that is is we as a   county, and this is where the interjurisdictional  thing comes up, easy for us to say, you know, we we identify a piece of land  down by Mount Area. Mount area says, "Well,   wait a minute. We don't want industrial down.  We don't want a big box." And so, that's where   we need to communicate to say, "Okay, this is what  we're thinking." And if they say, "We don't we're   not thinking that," then we're back to, "Okay,  well, what are you thinking?" because we we'll   incorporate that instead because, you know, we're  saying we're going to be inclusive or, you know,   communicate communicative with our municipalities.  But again, I I would like to see within the   section on this goal, I would like to have some  guidance as to what we think a healthy economy is.   So that 10 years from now when we look back we've  said okay we set as a goal to develop you know to   promote encourage the development of 500 homes  a year or you know we if we say we want to grow   what's healthy growth this is more employment and  economic development too right so if you look if   you have the master plan book and you look at  chapter 15. It kind of describes a lot of that.   Of course, it's dated because it's years back. So  assuming that when somebody digs in and does the  

significance again that all would be updated to  bring more current numbers, correct? Yeah. Okay.   Yeah. Well, this there's there's a portion in this  that we alluded to previously and number and C   providing land appropriately located and zoned for  variety of types of such and such. That's what I   mean about strategically locate or strategically  doing that a press so that we have that and you   know I think you talked about mount area so we'll  bring it up. There's a a wonderful stretch of   land. There is from the Lee Share property to  Quinn Arch. Yes, sir. And I can just see that   being something else. Top-notch tech center of of  medical centers and and places where people could   go for radiation treatment and all kinds research.  It's just there for the taking. Yes, sir. I agree   totally. Now, wouldn't that be a shame if one  of those farms along that way would be an egg   preservation? Yes, sir. So, that's that's what  I'm talking about. The sea right there. That's   where I'm agree. I'm heading with this. Agree.  Totally. I don't know whether we should put some   kind of language in there so that there's a  a coordinating effort between municipalities   and the county to provide those things, whether  we need language in there that would talk about   that or whether we need to drill down deeper in in  a later part of the section to do for that kind of   thing to happen because you know if Mount all  that in and then the county could come in with   economic development and help that happen. You  know, maybe this is pie in the sky, but I can  

see it. I'd see it happen in other areas. So, I I  that to me is but given given its proximity to 70,   that's the spot it providing land appropriately,  you know, b located. Yeah, that's what I mean.   So maybe in C um we could work in  some language that also alludes to coordinating with the municipalities um in a  way to also achieve some of these same things   and and you know I I think we have some  basis for this Daphne because when when   Mount Airy came here and gave their the best  presentation which I thought was tremendous it   the best one. It was a great presentation and  I really uh I really was on board with them.   I was too. Uh I could see this. Absolutely.  I talked to them a little bit after that and   um I could just see if if if our economic  development people in Carol County could   coordinate with Mount Ary and and their people  in this, wouldn't that be a great marriage? So,   yes, I I would like to put something like that in  there, Daphne. All right. Thank you. if we could anything else on 13 13 and I've noted  to sort of wherever that gets nested to   um look at some kind of I don't  know if they're KPIs or something   that'll give us some tracking  mechanism for how we're doing.

Okay, thank you. Two more. Goal 14 then is to facilitate a development  pattern that remains consistent with the   fabric of our communities, is in harmony with  the surrounding built and natural environments,   encourages community interaction, and in rural  areas preserves the county's rural character.   And I'm just going to read goal 15, too, because  I believe these are both in the same chapter,   and they kind of are related. So pursue  policies that facilitate development in   appropriate areas, including  the designated growth areas,   thereby protecting and conserving agricultural  and environmental resources, preserving open   space, and providing public facilities and  services efficiently and coste effectively. Deafany, do we have any language in any of these  goals that talks about communications Carol County   like broadband and uh is there anything in  here that refers to you know because there's   a lot of a lot of that going on now where we're  trying to reach out to these areas with broadband   and and enhancing our communication  network. I would have to confirm this,   but it's probably in the public facilities and  services section, but I'd have to verify that.   Just just wonder. That's the only thing  I had a question about in on these. Mhm. Um for future consideration, we also I know  there is a section in here that talks about  

um there's one of these chapters where we touch  on solar. Yeah. Um, it's possible that we might   I mean, you mentioned energy as being kind of  one of the the big things coming down the pike,   big things. It's possible that we might want to  look at energy as kind of its own section. Um,   in which case we would want to look at some goals  for that as well. But that's if that evolves   out of the discussions from from our update  process, right? It's a post-it to consider. I   agree totally. Yeah. Because it's coming. Yeah. We  wanted to or not. Um that's an aside. Now, as as   far as broadband is is concerned, I can verify  where that is in the plan, but I do think we   touch on it. I I think I mean I saw it somewhere  in here, too. I Yeah. Yeah. There's a statement   about broadband being expanded and road surfaces,  uh, unpaved roads be getting paved. Um, I recall   that being kind of in the same, uh, area. I'm not  sure if I'm recalling a different document. Okay. Um, okay. So as far as goal 14 and 15 go, um  mostly focused on what the development pattern   is that we're trying to achieve and how that how  the built and natural environments relate to each   other. um what our community how our communities  function. I we haven't used the phrase development   pattern much and I think this is probably the  only place I've really seen it. What do we mean  

by that Daffany and I just in the quiz? Um help  me understand what we think we mean by that.   I would I would define it as um the places in which stuff makes sense.  It it's we're not we're not putting   stuff where it shouldn't be is I'm asking.  Yeah. Well, development pattern I mean it I'm trying to to describe it without only  describing the built environment because I think   it's both the built and the natural environment.  So collectively what does that pattern look like   when you take developed areas and undeveloped  areas or semideveloped areas that's your your   pattern? Is it kind of is it um clustered  in little nodes? Is it kind of spread out   all over the place? Is it aligned along certain  corridors? Corridors, that kind of thing. Um,   so what I how I would read this goal is uh to try  to have a hand in shaping what that pattern is by   um kind of building off of existing communities.  um making sure that there is some harmony between   where you're building and where you're not  building and that the natural environment   is also able to thrive. Um I love the the  idea of encouraging community interaction.  

Um, we talk about where people tend to have  that that one-on-one inter interaction. Um,   in a lot of in a lot of places that's in your  public spaces. Mhm. Um what do you do when you   don't have designated public spaces and everybody  has their just has their own um private space. Um,   and this resonates with me because I do remember  talking about some of our statistics when we were   going over some of our health statistics and  some of the um unfortunate uh data around um   suicide rates and things like that and the mental  health crisis that we have um in our general   society right now. And so this notion of community  interaction and how we're able to find um a sense   of supportive community through the through our  development patterns I think is an intriguing one.   Okay, that's my own personal um so that's how  I would describe like development pattern. Then   um goal 15 I think almost brings that to a little  bit more um definition. So we're looking at   policies that direct growth to specific areas.  So designated growth areas um as your primary   places where that development occurs and then  um the the flip side of that which is protecting  

and conserving um agon environmental resources,  open space and then making sure that the public   facilities and services are in place that support  that kind of directed growth and and protection. I have nothing to add to either one of those. I think these um these two goals are If you  recall at the very beginning of this process,   we talked a little bit about sort of the  the um big big ideas that were behind the   original county master plan and how that's  been implemented and tweaked in some cases.   But to a large extent, what was put in place in  1964 um has been the the path that we've been   on. And I think both goals 14 and 15 kind of sum  that all up. Um and those early discussions all   seem to indicate that nobody really wanted  to radically change that. We like the way   things have um kind of unfolded and there's no  need to take a radical shift. Yep. Agreed. Y Okay. So, I have um a few of these that I'll  work on taking some of the ideas we've talked  

about here and try and try to put those into  some words and um integrate them into the the   goals. Otherwise, we've got a fair number that  um that you think are are good as they are. And   of course, we can always revisit those as  we continue to move through this process,   but I'll bring some revised text back to you.  Um, if not at the next meeting, then definitely   the one after that. Our next meeting, we're  going to start looking at the recommendations   that came from the workg groupoups. And the way  we're going to roll through that is we're going   to put them all like all of the um um let's  say like the capital project ideas. We're   going to put them all together so you can see  how they compare with each other. Um so that   hopefully that'll give you a chance to discuss  any recommendations that might either align or   conflict with each other. So you're not saying,  "Yeah, this looks good." And then, you know, two,   three meetings later there's a another similar  recommendation that says something a little bit   different and we have to go back and revisit the  first one that you talked about the first time.   Um, so we'll we'll look at the master  plan uh I mean the workg groupoup report   recommendations and then we'll start to  layer in the master plan recommendations   from the adopted plan. And we're going to try  to kind of look at this in an iter iterative

iterative way so that um at the end of  it we've got a list of recommendations   that all sort of are compatible with each  other um that preserve goals from the I mean   recommendations from the existing master plan  if they're still relevant and we want to keep   them. Um but also build in some um new ones  from both the master the worker reports and   uh things like the open houses and other other  comments that we've received from the public. Sound good? Yes, ma'am. Sounds good. Thank you.  Okay. We did this. Um uh February 17th is our next   meeting. Next meeting. That's a day meeting in the  morning. 9 a.m. 9 a.m. Yes, they said it was okay.   Okay, so I guess our session's over. Public.  Oh, no. We don't have no public. We exhausted   the public. We're not going there. You exhausted  more than just the public. So, we're we're done.