Board of County Commissioners - Regular Meeting

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  Welcome to the Thursday, May 7th,   2026 open session for the Board of Carroll  County Commissioners. As we always do,   we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance  and a moment of silent reflection. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United  States of America and to the republic   for which it stands. One nation under God,  indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I hope everybody is doing well today and I hope  you'll forgive us for running a couple of minutes   late. We all just came from the sheriff's  annual prayer breakfast. Absolutely wonderful   uh morning of camaraderie and community and prayer  and Commissioner Krebs, we'll start with you for   priority Carol this morning. Well, I won't discuss  that. We just all came from the prayer breakfast,   but it was excellent. Uh, today's the National Day  of Prayer, and it is always that that breakfast   has been going on for many, many, many years,  and it's it's so satisfying. They go all the   way from the president all the way down to  local law enforcement, our first responders,   and people that we just don't think about.  And, you know, in this hyper political time   of we always say that, but I think each year we  think it gets worse. that we just have to focus   on what is right and good for the people that we  serve and to get get out of the rhetoric and just   focus on what's important and you go back to the  the book and do it. It all works out. So anyway,   we did all just came from there. This is where  Commissioner Coller's um coming from as well. Um   the only other thing I had this week since  I was on vacation last week went to visit   Minnie Mouse. I'm all mini moused out with the  grandkids. But um on Tuesday when I came back,   I had an opportunity to speak at the chamber  breakfast which is held at our local libraries.   each of us go around and the chamber supports  an event at our local library and I had a great  

opportunity for the first time to meet with some  of the local businesses in my area and uh and   share some of the good things we're doing and  some of the things we want to do with our local   um chamber members and our library. So that's all  I did this week except for catch up. Glad to have   you. If I didn't answer your email yet, forgive  me and give me a another week or so. Glad to have   you back, Commissioner. Thank you, Commissioner  Garrett. Nothing for me this morning. Thanks,   Commissioner Gordon. Thank you. Uh, good morning,  Carol County. Got a few things this morning. Uh,   first, I wanted to give a shout out to,  uh, Christine Murphy with CCC Fence. Uh,   the Baltimore magazine uh, somewhat recently did  an article article called Women Who Move Maryland,   and she was a Carol County uh, business operator  that I wanted to mention because obviously always   great to see Carol County showcased. So, I wanted  to give her a shout out for that. Uh secondly,   wanted to give a congratulations to Emily uh Burns  for being named Carol County Public School teacher   of the year. As always, uh you know, we take a  lot of pride in Carol County when it comes to   our education and definitely our educators and  just wanted to uh give her uh congratulations   and uh truly appreciate all the incredible work  she does in our community as do all our teachers.   Uh also wanted to mention it's National Teacher  Appreciation Week. I wonder if they timed that   around the same time. But uh truly want to, you  know, recognize and celebrate all our teachers for   all the work, all the hard work they do, not only  during school hours, but also after school hours,   mentoring kids and just all the devotion they put  forward in the community. Truly truly appreciate   the sacrifice and countless ways that they all  make a difference. This week is also Go ahead,   Chris. Small business week. So, uh, as we all  know, our small businesses are a significant   backbone of our community. Um, many of us do shop  locally. I would just suggest anytime we can,  

let's please support our local businesses because  they're not just businesses, their families.   These are the people that not only support our  nonprofits, but also our wreck and park teams,   as well as uh keep Carol County being what Carol  County is vibrantly. So, if you could, I would   encourage anyone to take a a moment, you know,  shop, dine local, support our local businesses   in any way we can. And next, I'm going to move on  to last night. Last night, uh, as everyone knows,   the five of us were at the uh, budget meeting, but  before that, I had the pleasure of being at the   uh, Boys and Girls Club youth of the year event.  So, first off, you have in the one photo there,   Aaron Bishop from the Boys and Girls Club with  uh Vimar, who is a senior graduating who is the   youth of the year for Carol County. Today, he is  in Haggartown competing for the Maryland Youth of   the Year. So, we might get number six. Let's keep  our fingers and toes crossed. Uh just exceptional,   exceptional evening for all the kids involved.  And then last night I and uh Jana had the honor of   um uh announcing a new scholarship that we had  set up this year and this was the first recipient.   This is Andrea who received it. She is going to  Salsbury next year. So we created a scholarship   called the driven to dream scholarship. The  scholarship which was established this year   uh is to support a member of the Boys and  Girls Club who demonstrate determination,   strong character, leadership and a commitment  to achieving their goals. scholarship was   created to help a deserving student pursue  post-secary education, vocational training,   or other career advancing opportunities.  And we wanted the scholarship to recogn for the youth of the community. So, had a great  time at that last night. Then had to rush over to   our budget meeting, which was, you know, was good  turnout last night. was a pretty uh quick budget  

meeting which I was not expecting. And that is all  for me. Thank you very much, Commissioner Gordon.   Commissioner Kyler. Okay. Thank you. Um yeah, busy  busy busy times. Um last Thursday after our open   session, we had employee appreciation day out at  the A Center. Great time, great people. Uh and   uh um I want to thank HR. I want to thank all the  staff for setting it up. Um, a lot of games. Uh,   I had two or three dimes and on the second one  I won two glasses. I didn't think you could   win two at the same time, but I did. So, uh, fun  games and, uh, fun lunch. Always always good. Um,   on Friday, I went early to, uh, Carol Citizens  for Racial Equality at the community college.   uh great event. Um great I got to hear the first  presentation and uh and very very good. Um she's   an awesome lady and uh um I wish I could have  stayed for the rest of the day, but I had many   other things to do. But great event, great start.  Um I went out to uh Union Mills Homestead. Um,   and I didn't I didn't realize uh we were  receiving the preservation awards from the   state of Maryland. I thought Union Mills was, but  uh we received it. Um, it's here in the office and   uh I want to thank Union Mills for all they've  done out there and the uh the flower market   was going on too. A lot of people buying a lot of  stuff. I was smart enough to buy a hanging basket   and I didn't know what it was but it's I don't  know it's called straw flowers or something and uh  

um Rhonda liked it so I lucked out. Um I want to  thank Dean Lyster and uh Brian Boi for all they do   out there and they got awards also uh with their  name on it. So uh yeah, great event. um one of the   jewels of Carol County and uh it's I told him um  I'm sorry I I went off on a tangent. Uh we lost   uh Mad Shrivever Franklin and uh her service is  coming up. Her brother Frank was there. Sorry.   Um I go off on a tangent, but uh it was awful to  lose Match, but I'll still pick on the Shrivevers.   Um, I told him it was the first time I've been  there that they had probably minimum wage paid   parkers. I said, "Every other time I've been here,  a Shrivever has volunteered and parked cars." So,   um, they they must be rowing in money because  they actually paid people. Um, and then we had   some some staff meetings that day. on Saturday,  um May the 2nd, um there was a ribbon cutting at   Christmas Tree Park in Manchester for um just the  floor, just the base of a totally accessible tot   lot. And uh I don't want the town of Manchester to  kill me, but they probably will. Just the floor,   just the rubber floor. 130,000. I told him uh  Vernon Smith and I were part of the first ever   tot lot at Manchester Elementary. The entire tot  cost about 15,000 and uh we were allowed to be   volunteer laborers to put it up. Now liability  won't let you do that. But but great for the  

town of Manchester and great in memory of Haley.  We got to talk to her mom who uh um we knew her   from North Carol and uh and her father and uh it  it's just awesome that they set up a foundation.   They do so much. Um then we went on to uh the  American Legion in Westminster. Junior Fischer   turned 100 and uh it I think it's 130 people  there celebrating his birthday and uh he uh I hope I can be that active at the age I  am much less at 100. He was jumping around   and as we leaving he was putting on music and I  think he was going to dance. Um, Sunday was the   uh veteran celebration at the uh farm museum.  Awesome, awesome event. Uh, and uh, Secretary   Rostine and I and I want to thank the committee  and, uh, the patience of some of the people. Um,   most of the day we rode around in golf carts,  which let us see 10 times as many people as we   would have walking around. and we'd jump out and  do selfies or jump out and talk to people and then   head on we got to see the helicopter take off. Um  didn't climb on top of it like some people did but   uh you know it it's it just it was a great day um  for next year just and I know you won't believe   but it was sunny, it was beautiful. make it just  a little bit warmer. It was perfect. It was a  

perfect day. But but great day. Um and uh earlier  this week I got to see uh the early couple. Um   she spoke and he talked and and that was great.  um got to see the chamber breakfast and listen   to Commissioner Krebs talk in Eldersburg. And  uh last night um I had an activity and I it's   the first time in years we've missed the Boys and  Girls Club, but it was just tough to make it. And   uh actually Wyinners Mill uh National Honor  Society had their program and uh we got to watch   my grandson get his cord I guess it's called that  he gets to wear and graduation and they inducted   some new new people and uh um unless something  happens wild our granddaughter there will be   in it too. Um, and uh, it it's just it's a great  program and and of course everybody I think knows   National Honor Society and grades and all that,  but they also do volunteer hours and um, I didn't   know it. um my middle son was in it and I probably  didn't pay attention but um the chord you get and   what you get as a senior is also uh indicative of  how many volunteer hours you did. So it's not just   academics, it's it's community work, too. Um, then  we did our uh public hearing and like Commissioner   Gordon said, it was a little bit shorter than we  could have expected and uh great comments. Uh,   I'm I'm glad I'm glad the commenters that did come  came and uh talked to a bunch of them individually  

afterwards and a good event. Um this morning um  was the sheriff's prayer breakfast and uh um nice   event, nice uh individuals giving prayers and and  a nice nice people there to talk to and I talked   to some of them afterwards and uh it just a good  event. the sheriff has his uh picnic at lunch. So,   I did ask him what we were doing for dinner and  he kind of told me I was on my own. So, uh um I   think that catches me up for the week and thank  you for listening and uh thank you for the veteran   celebration, the uh employee appreciation. There's  a lot of good events this week. Um and and uh so   many veterans out there and both at uh Junior's um  birthday, we talked about guard. He was he was one   of those guys that was Navy World War II, left  the Navy, and then became Army National Guard   for the rest of his career. And it it's it's  interesting. There's a number of veterans that   served in two different types of service. And  and and it's awesome. So, we talked about that,   but we talked about in my last commercial  here this morning for the veterans out there,   you deserve what Carol County can do for you and  and you deserve it. Number one, and number two,   uh tell your friends because there's still people  not aware of it. I learned uh many many years ago   with North Carolina Rec Council and Manchester  Wrestling, you can put it on a billboard,   you can put it in a paper, you can hand each  kid a hand out, and there's still people that   don't know and don't get the word on what's going  on. And uh so veterans, uh you deserve it and ask  

about it and and pursue it. Thank you. Thank you  very much, Commissioner Kyler. And uh with the   exception of me uh uh echoing all the uh uh kind  sentiments of my friends up here regarding the   veteran celebration, congratulations again on how  well that turned out. I'm going to presend my own   report this morning in the interest of uh time.  I know we have two items of very uh significant   uh discussion ahead of us. So I want to make sure  we uh move along a bit here. So uh Commissioner   Gordon, I believe you have a proclamation. Uh yes,  we do. We have a proclamation for mental health   awareness month and would like to ask anyone  that wants to come up to the table, please do. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Morning. So, I'm going to let you both speak first about  what you all do in Carol County for mental health.   So, I'm the CEO at Carol County Youth Service  Bureau, Lisa Goff, and our clinical director,   uh, Angela Schmar. And just appreciate the  recognition. This is such an important issue, and   unfortunately with stigma, you know, people don't  either access services, there's a huge gap. You   know, when someone has something like diabetes,  within a couple months or a couple years,   they're within they're in treatment. you know,  they're receiving services and medication and   adjusting their lifestyle where it can be 10 to  15 years from the onset of someone having symptoms   with a mental health disorder um or or struggle  before they even think about starting to get help   or treatment. So, appreciate the commissioners  just taking the time to recognize the importance   of care um and that we have services here  in the county to really support all ages. And uh this is our clinical director, Angela  Schmar, um who oversees the outpatient clinic that  

we have as well as some of our community based  services. And I just I want to thank you for your   support of us too over the years. I've been there  a long time and the support of the commissioners   has always been really, you know, amazing and  very helpful to us. Okay. Well, I'm going to go   ahead and read the proclamation. proclamation. May  is mental health awareness month. Whereas mental   health awareness month has been observed since  1949 and has been a way to help people recognize   the ways mental illness impacts lives, educate  about available services, and highlight ways   to advocate for those with mental illnesses and  recognition and education are important. Ways to   remove the stigma associated with mental illness.  Mental Health Awareness Month creates a time and   space to start a conversation. Talking openly  about mental health can reduce misconceptions and   stigma and can encourage those who are suffering  to seek help and find a support network. And as we   observe Mental Health Month this May, we recognize  that the path to wellness is one we walk together.   We honor the Carol County Youth Service Bureau  and our dedicated network of behavioral health   agencies for their unwavering commitment to  providing a continuum of care from prevention   and intervention to life-changing treatment.  And by meeting our residents where they are,   these organizations ensure that every child,  adult, and family in Carroll County has the   support they need to experience more good days  together. and we stand with our providers and   our community in fostering resilience, reducing  stigma, and building a healthier, more connected   Carol County for all. Now, therefore, we,  the board of Carol County Commissioners,   to hereby proclaim May as mental health awareness  month in Carol County and urge all communities to   increase awareness and understanding of mental  health, adopted the 7th day of May, 2026,   signed the board of Carol County Commissioners.  Well, thank you very much for coming in. Thank you  

for all that you do. I know it's an incredibly  difficult thing to do, but incredibly grateful   that that someone has the the capacity to do it.  I know it's difficult and God bless you for it.   I'll just echo those comments and just say a  couple brief things. Um, I'm always, I guess,   intrigued, for lack of a better way of putting  it, that we live in a society, especially in   2026 and even earlier, that you break an arm,  you go to the doctors, you have another issue,   you go get help. But for some reason, uh, in some  environments, we still don't understand that there   shouldn't be a stigma to mental health. And, uh,  I know it's at times very challenging to find,   uh, providers. I know it can be exceptionally  difficult for people, but I truly appreciate   all the hard work you and a number of other  organizations are doing in our community. And   uh I I think I think there's probably more of  us that need a little assistance. It's not a bad   thing, but uh truly appreciate all the hard work  and dedication. Thank you. Thank you. Any other   comments from our friends up here? Thank Thank you  very much. you. It's It's a tireless effort and   uh you don't always get thanks, but this morning  you're getting it. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank   you very much. Absolutely. We'll do a photo,  maybe have them bring the rest of the group   up front and we can just How many you guys got to  stay up? We probably need to stay up here. You got Sorry, Susan. Am

I okay? You normally like being blocked  by something like duck down a little. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you  guys. That's yours. That's yours. All right. Up next on our agenda, we have grant  and approval to submit application and acceptance   of the award for the FY27 and Maryland Criminal  Intelligence Network program. We're joined by   our venerable states attorney this morning.  Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Um,   seated next to me is uh Liz Kamudi who is  our Mson prosecutor and she is phenomenal.   Uh I don't think I'm overstating it when I say  that uh from a public state safety standpoint,   this is one of the more important grants that uh  you'll have presented to you. So at this point,   without any further ado, Liz, and we love the  county contribution part. Yes. Yes. It's it's   it's small that and uh you get a lot of bang for  the buck with that. Yes, definitely. Now good   morning everyone. Good morning. Good morning. Yes,  we have submitted a briefing paper. Um it's about   um basically application to renew for this year uh  the fiscal year um uh 2027 uh MSON grant uh which   is uh uh goes from July 1st through June 30th  of next year. Um again u MSON has been vital.  

We've been very busy this past year. um really  um have upped the numbers of uh um investigations   and prosecutions. It's been very successful. Um  this grant will um continue the critical work   and provide um funding for um two positions.  It does fund um my position as well as a crime   analyst and it includes requests for data sharing  software, surveillance, training, overtime funding   for local law enforcement agencies. We also were  um successful this year. there was a um we asked   for an additional amount for overtime funding from  the governor's office and that was granted. So,   we were happy with that. There was definitely the  need for that. Um and that is is shared between   uh the sheriff's office uh at this point Maryland  State Police has joined in on the task force,   the Westminster Police Department, and also in  the past year the Tonytown Police Department   has joined. So, it's been very successful. of the  collaboration efforts which is the purpose of this   um are being affected and um so I'm happy  to present. I do um respectfully request the   county contribution for fringe benefits. The  grant only covers up to 30% of salary fringe   benefits. So that's what the additional ask is for  and um thank you. Thank you very much. I move the   board of commissioners approve the submission  of the FY27 27 Maryland Criminal Intelligence   Network grant application and accept the award.  Second. We have a motion. We have a second. Is   there any discussion? I just had a question.  Um we al often ask how often these things get   um the grants come and go. How many years  have we been getting the grant? Um I believe   this is the seventh sixth or seventh year. I'd  have to double check on the narrative, but I   It's good. It's good that they've continued that  instead of left. And it has been they did submit   um success like they there's been a review of  the past I think it is seven years um that was   submitted to the governor's office um to just show  that you know the the bang for the buck is really  

there good because a lot of times they just leave  us hanging and then you're like what do we do but   I'm glad that they're continuing to fund it and  it's been working very well. Yes. Thank you. All   right. Any any other discussion? All those in  favor. All those opposed motion carries. Thank   you both very much. Thank you. Thank you. Have a  good day. You as well. Thank you. All right. So,   up next we have a briefing discussion on  retirement homes and retirement villages. And so,   uh you'll notice that we have uh two more items  on the agenda today, but both of these uh would   pro probably prove to be uh quite substantial  in terms of the uh breath and discussion that   may ensue from them. So, I'm going to suggest  that uh what we do is we go through the entire   presentation. We'll make note of our questions  or comments that we have along the way. Let them   get through the presentation. uh so we can uh uh  get that completed and then ask the uh questions   that we may have. So without further ado, Daffany,  I'll turn it over to you to introduce our guests.   Thanks so much. Good morning everybody. Daffhany  Daly with the Department of Planning and Land   Management. I'm here with Troy Trex and Seth  Coons from Michael Michael Baker International.   um they are the consultants working to uh go  through the items addressed in the four different   uh development deferrals. So um if you  recall we have um deferrals on retirement   homes and retirement villages. That's one  item. Self-service storage facilities,   cluster subdivisions and planned commercials.  sorry, plan commercial centers. Um the work for   each of these involves three different tasks. So  the first task is a review of um our current uh uh  

um situation, what what we have in our  codes, how that aligns with our plans,   that sort of thing. The second task is to look  at best practices for each of these development   categories and then the third task will be to  suggest specific code revisions. Um what we   have today is a report on the first two tasks of  one of those development types which is retirement   homes and retirement villages. At the end of the  presentation, what we're hoping to do is get some   direction for you all from you all on the types of  code revisions that they could look at as part of   task three for this particular use. So, with that  context set up, I'm going to turn it over to Troy   and Seth to walk you through what they've found  so far and some of the best practices that they've   uh surfaced. You might want to help them pull  up the I'm sorry could probably do it a little   more. There it is. It's right there. You're  good. I know what it looks like. There we go. Okay. Good morning, commissioners. Thank you  so much again. Troy Truax with Michael Baker   International. Uh had the pleasure of working  in Carol County before, namely in Sykesville,   Maryland. Uh work with town manager go  Joe Kosentini uh several years ago. Oh,   Joe and I go way back, but uh had the pleasure of  preparing Sykesville's new comprehensive plan and   then currently have been working uh still working,  if you will, of uh rewriting their zoning and   subdivision, which is a new unified development  code. So, um but it's been great to travel through   uh your neck of the woods, uh and be here today  and help you with this project. I'll get started   and Seth's gonna chime in. Um maybe Seth, you  can just advance the slides. Keep on going there.  

Um so again as Daphne said on this slide um we're  focusing right now on on this first two tasks is   uh we collectively call them age re uh age  restricted communities uh namely retirement   homes and retirement villages. Those are two  prescribed uses uh provided for in your zoning   code and they're defined there in that document.  Um, first of all, we wanted to evaluate your your   comprehensive plan, not only for Carol County,  but also the Freedom Area Comprehensive Plan,   the Thinksburg area corridor plan, and evaluate  are there consistencies or inconsistencies with   those policy documents and how they're actually  implemented through the zoning code, um, if you   will. And then also too, as Daffhany mentioned,  we've tried to look outside your county boundaries   to look for other examples, what we call best  practices to say, "Hey, how are retirement homes,   retirement villages, how are these done in other  areas that we might think about exemplify good   community planning uh uh practices and ideals.  Um, again, these are the the current plans that   we evaluated. Um, and then also to I think I've  covered this, you can keep on going then, Seth.   Um so the regulatory review um again chapter  155 is your development and subdivision of land   uh section um if you will um and then also too  in the code zoning is under uh 58. Um what our   key findings are um age restricted housing is  permitted in several districts and I know you   have tackled this issue uh before and the staff  has done Chris and Daphne have done a great   job of giving us the background history on that.  Currently, age restricted housing is permitted as   a conditional use in the R20,000. Uh just villages  only. So there's retirement homes and retirement   villages. Villages only are permitted in the  R20. Uh R10,000 and R7500 and then permitted by   right in the C1 and C2 districts. Uh regulations  rely heavily on general residential standards. So  

again, one thing that we find you'll see in our  presentation is that what are the expectations   that you as a a community are looking for in these  types of products, these types of developments.   And what we're finding is that there's not a lot  of I'll call it meat to the bones when it comes   to design standards. So, it's left then having  uh your yourselves, your planning and zoning   commission as well as the applicants basically  not guessing but saying they're meeting the   basic requirements and then the reaction is well  that's not really what we envision this community   to be. So, what we're finding is you probably  definitely need and that's jumping to some of   the policy recommendations. Make sure you have  clear design standards laid out because one thing   we think about age restricted housing, it's not  just a residential subdivision where people are,   you know, living there for the day, going to  their work. These are places where individuals   with active living lifestyles. You know, a lot  of times we think about retirement individuals   55 plus. I mean, I'm 53. I'm going to be in that  age category in a couple years, uh, which I don't   like to think about, but we're active. I mean no  longer are people you know uh going to nursing   homes although their continuing care is part of a  the discussion not for this topic but it's part of   the overall discussion but certainly we're finding  that people go and spend their retirement in a   village or a setting where there's activities and  amenities and that's what we're finding in some   of these best practices. So again that goes lays  into some of the design standards and requirements   among other things uh that we have identified  in there and that also talks about some of the   limited use uh specific requirements and and and  spec specifications in your ordinance. So I do a   lot of zoning work um if you don't explicitly  call it out um it's not provided for. So it's   left up for anybody's interpretation and also to  on the back end if you have planning and zoning   commission officials. I'm a planning comm  member of my municipality for 27 years. Um,   so if it's in the code, great. If it's not, then  unless it's a conditional use, we don't have much  

say and and what we can dictate or require, even  though that we're thinking like, boy, I wish they   would have actually designed that better. So,  what we what we we see is what we react to on   the back end. Um, next slide there, Seth. So, some  of the issues, uh, again, scale and compatibility,   uh, like Snowden's Creek, for example, was  a a multi-story apartment building. Uh,   that would be a retirement home. Um, you know,  what we've seen in the field tour that we took,   uh, Commissioner Krebs was part of that field tour  and Roberto as well with staff is that that's a   product that's situated right in the middle of a  residential single family, one-story type of uh,   uh, lower density, medium density development.  And, uh, no difference to that project. there's   no amenities. It's a parking lot with a high-rise  building to it. So, we think about, okay, that   that's serving a purpose, but again, on the on  the flip side, could we have done maybe a better   job of requiring amenities? Because you go to  some retirement villages or even apartments, and   you'll see in our best practices, there's a lot  of amenities, even a gazebo um of open space areas   where people can get out of their apartment living  or what have you to enjoy that outside area. So,   that's just one. I'll call it a deficiency, but  it's might be a design deficiency that you would   see. And also thinking about the context of that  scale of building placed in the setting of that   residential community is also gives you kind of  a a pause for consideration going forward. Uh   we talked about lack of community amenities. Uh  universal design. I think I touched upon that in   terms of aging and place. You think about you  know you you want to start living there today   as an active retiree member of that community but  you know 10 20 years down the road life takes its   uh toll on everybody and we don't know. But  there's also that I don't want to say continuum   of care but also choices of housing products  within that development if you only left with   a single product. You're not giving a variety of  of options for affordability but also scalability   depending on uh your life situation going forward.  And then I think I talked about disparity between  

zoning and expectations uh and projects like  Nellsacres. There's one, you know, on the surface,   beautiful looking product, um, if you will, but  there's a lot of lot packed into that small area.   Um so if you start to drive through it um when  we've seen a lot of other examples I think Amble   Brook up in Gettysburg which is one of our best  practices or Bloomfields in Frederick much larger   scale developments but you can also if you can  even think about it as a smaller scale just the   fact that you have more open space usable open  space also there's space between the buildings   there's a variety of products there um I would say  you know Nell's acres beautiful product no but but   in terms of the design and layout I think there  could have been some opportunity for improvement,   but again, there's no standards. There's no  design standards for site layout or anything.   And also too, we saw some issues. If I were a  retiree, if I'm having mobility issues, you know,   trying to park my car, ingress and egress in my  car is really challenging. You're open your door   up to the edge of the pavement and there's grass.  I I don't have a place for a walker. Um, also too,   inside the garage or even the entry levels, you  know, you're up steps. So again, you have to   think about these are for retirees today that have  active lifestyles, but also retirees that maybe   need accommodations immediately upon arriving in  those communities, but they still want their sense   of independence. Um, and also to pedestrian  connectivity, parking. We understand that   particular project gets overparked on the weekends  because visitors are coming in. So again, it comes   down to the site design and amenities. And I think  that's one of the biggest kind of recommendations   we would think about from a policy standpoint.  And then finally, one thing we saw is emergency   access. I know in my planning commission days of  27 years in doing planning, um, one thing that   we really enforce and we codify is the NF NFPA  standards for fire access and emergency access.   You know, if our developments don't have at least  two points of ingress and egress, and if you can't  

provide for it, you better figure out a way to do  it in a temporary basis via a gravel a crossing   or an easement that can actually handle the gross  vehicle weight of a fire apparatus, if you will.   That's one solution we've come up with. But that's  one thing to think about too, making sure that   those types of standards. Um, and I understand you  get your, you know, your fire chiefs and everybody   start to review these plans, but make sure there's  clear standards and think about maybe there's an   opportunity to codify uh those requirements  and you do it elsewhere. We've seen where   NFPA is recognized elsewhere and like your site  development code, but this would be another area   for improvement uh in that. Um, best practices,  I I'll go through these at a high level.   Um again uh some of the best practices highlights.  One thing that we see in these planning projects   there's flexibility. I mean these are significant  projects that have a lot of amenities typically a   lot of different types of use involvement in terms  of the different types of residential products. So   we always try to think about it you know the way  that you approve them either permitted by right   or possibly actually think about the process of  conditional use. And one thing you'll see in our   recommendations is possibly even leveraging your  PUD, your plan unit development. You provide for   that for the R10 and R7500 for certain situations.  That's a great process because that allows you to   have a master planning process as that application  comes in. And then you also are able to provide   flexibility for both the applicant and also the  reviewers reviewers on the county side to make   sure that hey there's a lot of considerations in  this project. Now's the time to actually think   about that through the PUD process and always on  the back end. You're writing and prescribing the   bulk and area and density and all those types of  standards through the PUD approval process. So   again, that's a great tool that you currently have  in your code that might be considered uh for these   types of projects to actually add more flexibility  because there's a lot of times you don't  

anticipate until it hits your hits your desk and  the applications there. Um also establish clear   standards for permitted uses and open space. A lot  of these projects do just that uh through their   code provisions. Um we talked about conditional  use or special exception approvals uh and not   just treated as a permitted by right because  these are typically have special requirements   special elements of of safety health provisions  that we have to think about. Um open space is a   huge amenity. Certainly we need to ensure that  there's walkability accessibility but also think   about those amenities that support those types of  active uh living retirement living uh lifestyles.   Um, and then also too, use regulations that  attract developers who understand the product. Not   saying that those that with Nell's Acres, I know  that's Ryan Holmes, do not because we've seen them   do projects elsewhere. Um, so again, you don't  have it in your standards. They're meeting that   standard, that minimum standard. So why would they  want, again, it's business. Again, think of it,   it's business. Why would they want to spend more  money on something when you're not requiring them   to? So again, again, the buck's going to be passed  on the consumer. So, we have to think about what's   the balance in all this, too. Um, but certainly  we've seen that there's an expectation. It's like   the McDonald's of old days. You know, unless  you require it, but they're going to say no,   but we've seen it. If you require it and they want  to be in your community, they're going to meet   your standards. Um, so I think that as a planning  commissioner myself, I've often said no. Uh,   because our plan said this and this is what the  applicant wants. have the backbone to say no,   but also make sure you're prescriptive and also  you identify what your expectations are for these   types of projects. Um, so again, Amble Brook just  right up the road. Has any I know Commissioner   Krebs, you're quite familiar with Amblebrook.  Um, has anybody else been in Amblebrook up in   Gettysburg? Strawband Township just right off  of 15. Uh, right up right up 97. You hang a  

right on 15 and go up there at Gettysburg. Uh,  great project, brand new. Um, it does offer um,   Yep. stuff is moving through it. Um, it does offer  a ton of amenities. Um, but also too, if you look   at the next slide, um, it's a diverse landscape  of housing types. So, not just one product is in   there. There's a variety and options for choice.  Um, go to this slide there next, Seth. And you   can see it also includes a clubhouse. So, again,  much larger scale. Um, but again, that's where I   think the PUD, for example, can help scale these  projects and making sure that you're considering   types of amenities that would make sense to  a certain product based upon that scale. Uh,   Bloomfields at Frederick's, I'm Bloomfields at  Frederick, right up the road from you all. I'm   sure you've seen that driving along 15. Uh, there  just north of the city. Um, but again, another   great project. Uh, very large, very diverse as  well, but there's some kind of common threads   through that too. a diversity of product and it  meets all those design standards, requirements,   etc. uh through that process um as specified in  the county uh code. Um and then um you can see   again a number of amenities. Again, these don't  have to have outdoor pools. We're not saying that   all these projects have to have these high-end  amenities, but think about the basic amenities.   If you were going to live there and retire there,  you know, what would you want to see? you know,   what were the minimum kind of things that you  wanted to see if you're because you're not paying   cheap prices for any of this stuff. Uh I mean,  these are half million, quarter of a million. It's   amazing what the costs are. So, if you're paying  for that and then you are complaining that I don't   have access, my friends and family can't visit  because they can't park. Um I can't get my walker   out because now I have a a knee surgery I had to  have done. Think about those things if you were in   those shoes, but also what kinds of amenities you  would like to have in your communities. Uh, a few   other ones that we p pointed out. Transitions of  America is very much a national builder in this  

space. Uh, Litz project again they abide by the uh  uh the local uh development codes there that also   included architectural design standards uh and  other requirements uh that they met. also a mix of   housing. Uh for example, for the Lidditz project,  minimum of 70% single family, maximum 30% duplex.   Again, requiring a mix and I think that's some  things that we want to see uh in these projects.   Um amenities also, this one happens to be within  the community of Litz. So there's even immediate   access to a hospital. So you think about the  medical care and other types of facilities. Again,   you can't specifically dictate uh the properties  that these goes on relative to within the zoning   district that are permitted for, but these are  also kinds of things that the developers are   looking for in terms of where they're placing and  what types of services. And then finally, a couple   examples on retirement homes. Again, these are the  multi-story apartment style living. Uh but again,   the examples that we offer definitely show  that there are amenities within uh that build   environment. uh attractively designed um and  again an area where um provides those types of   amenities that I think that that the consumers are  definitely wanting and also getting their money's   worth um out of as well. So let me just go down to  the policy recommendations then too and I'll have   Seth join in uh on this. Um so again the purpose  of the recommendations right now these are just   high level policy recommendations. what we're,  as Dafany said, what we're looking for you folks   um commissioners is to give us direction like,  yeah, we agree on these or we may not disagree   totally on this, but give us kind of the the north  guiding star of how do we proceed because what   we would do next for this particular category of  uses is put pen to paper on particular amendments   like literally what are the changes that we would  recommend in your codes to actually accommodate  

these policy recommendations. Uh, so for number  one, um, just go down to Sorry, Seth. So,   I'll I'll take the first one. I'll hand it off to  Seth. You can start going through these. Um, maybe   think about, you know, instead of having the uses  scattered differently in the ordinance. You know,   you have your definitions where it has everything,  but then you have to start finding where all the   use regulations are. So one example is if you  think uh uh uh Nell's Acres, the community's   expectation was that was zoned R20 20,000. Um  so they're thinking in their mind that's medium   density residential and then the product comes  out it's more higher density, right? 3.5 units per   acre if you will. And how did we get there? Well,  they use the age uh like the uh age restricted   community provisions of the code which is  somewhere else in the code. So on the surface, the   average person is looking at your code and saying  R20 and then going and saying, "Okay, now we're   going to apply this different section and all of  a sudden we're now able to increase our density."   And that might be one where the community's  expectations are just met because in their mind   it was R20 and somehow we ended up with something  with higher densities. That's fine because you   provided for it. But again, making sure maybe  there's an opportunity because that provisions   applies to age restricted, maybe consolidate those  types of requirements uh in an age restricted   category. Uh uh so that everything's in a not  saying everything's in a nice tidy neat place, but   also helps make sure that you're not searching and  hunting where these provisions are in the code. Um   if you will. Seth, do you want to take the next  one? Yeah, sure. Uh morning everyone. I just   want to introduce myself real quick before I jump  into the kind of our second recommended action.   Uh my name is Seth Coons. I am a senior community  planner with Michael Baker out of our Pittsburgh   office. Uh it's my first time working directly in  Carroll County, but I actually began my planning   career down in Charles County, Loa, Maryland.  They hired me right out of school. Grew up in   the Midwest. Um so I'm familiar with Maryland.  It is great to be back in the state and I want to  

thank you all for your time this morning. Uh one  other recommendation that we are proposing as part   of this project is a more structured density  framework as part of both the age restricted   housing for retirement homes and retirement  villages. um what is currently happening now in   the county zoning and subdivision regulations um  does a average density that is a little bit more   uh flexible and difficult to to kind of nail down.  So uh we want to replace that open-ended density   determination um with averages that are based on  um ranges within the zoning districts that are   clearly established and identified just to make  it easier from both the administrative review and   application process. Um, this could also include  things like density bonuses, um, that allow for   an increase in the underlying density allowance  based on, um, additional community facilities,   uh, recreation areas, those types of things. Um,  and also establishing some kind of more general   broader, uh, regulations in terms of like  minimum tract acre for some larger projects   like retirement homes and retirement villages of  certain scale. Keep going. Uh in addition to kind   of rolling with that uh that density framework,  reassessing density calculations um could be a   valuable tool to help kind of guiding and crafting  some of the development we think we'd like to see.   um in terms such as like calculating density as an  average units in terms of the number of acres um   and replacing uh that uniform maximum application  across the entire site um with something that is   more again easier to implement uh apply for and  uh work with through the approval process. Um   the county's current regulations talk about net  development acre area um that should be clearly   defined more clearly to help work through this  process some more. It's a very kind of technical   underlying portion of the ordinances, but it does  play a heavy role into how these projects come to   fruition. Um, we can also allow for the clustering  of development uh throughout the site to allow for  

uh the preservation of critical open areas or  you know set aside spaces for community areas.   Uh these density calculations can definitely help  uh craft that type of projects that we're looking   for. Yeah. And if I could just highlight one  important part about this is gross versus net.   So right now your ordinance is require when a  developer is required to have open space. It's   calculated on the gross. So what ends up happening  then you're allowing that applicant then to take   advantage of areas that you think about open  space. We want to use that maybe for active or   passive recreation but too often you know again no  requirement. So why are we're just going to take   some of the I won't say wasteland but the areas  that you couldn't develop and yield product out   of that's part of your open space calculation.  So what we would suggest and recommend and we   see this a lot and we've helped other communities  correct that problem use net. So you you you're   first subtracting out uh the undevelopable areas  the environmental sensitive areas flood planes   etc wetlands what have you all important  environmental features but again at the   end of the day we want them to say okay you still  have to provide for open space. So once you remove   all that from the gross now you have a de net net  developable area and use that net developable area   to start to say okay now now start to use your  open space calculations. The key to this though   is too you also have to have flexibility in your  zoning because you're asking the developer to say   hey I have to get you you prescribed a specific  average density for me now I can't get it because   and I can't make my project pencil out. So what  we've seen too is allow flexibility where those   those lot sizes are able to actually contract,  get smaller, so they're actually getting the yield   that they need out of it to make their project  work. Again, it's economics. They have to make   it work pencil-wise. So we have to think about  their end of it, too, in terms of the applicant,   but also the consumer of what they're  getting out of these projects. So sorry,   sine. Thank you, Troy. Uh, so this is something  that we talked about kind of initially as part   of Troy's introduction to this whole project.  uh in terms of what we saw in our site tour,   what we see in some of our guiding documents, but  also really what we uncovered throughout our best  

practice analysis. Uh contextsensitive design  standards get away from that underlying technical   part of density calculations and net versus gross  uh and really get into more of the things that we   see uh when the projects are built out and we see  in the long-term lifespan of projects. Um some of   the things that we have compl contemplated and put  forth today um such as like requiring height and   massing transitions for large-scale retirement  homes. So getting away from blank facades uh   singular long uh roof lines that kind of be pretty  ominous um against its context. Um placing some   of our larger buildings as part of a campus style  development more internal to the site. Putting our   smaller more context uh sensitive uh buildings  along the perimeter up against its context.   um potentially increasing our buffering  requirements around large projects near   residential areas of much lower density and scale  provide that nice transition um and then improving   per the building and pedestrian circulation  requirements both within and outside of sites   where it's available um to ensure that as Troy  had mentioned earlier we're not only requiring   those community amenities but setting aside spaces  where we can have an active lifestyle and some of   the connections throughout the community um and  a well-designed project is Winterford Manor. You   know, if you think it's older, but it's really  nice. Uh it's tucked back in. Uh it's in the   contextsensitive design. Tall buildings in the  middle. We've got some of the duplexes around the   perimeter. It's got good pedestrian circulation.  You've got some good examples already just in that   project. And again, it's older. It's not something  new. It's an older product, but still relative   and very uh serviceable in terms of it's meeting  these types of standards. And these regulations   not only make projects better, but they preserve  the compatibility with the surrounding community.   uh and preserve some of that character what we  have today um without being overly uh ownorous   on those areas. Um going more thinking external  to more internal uh some of the things that we  

talked about earlier about aging in place and  universal design standards within structures. Um,   we have taken some example examples from within  Maryland uh about providing some stepfree access   into our units to allow for residents that  are aging in place to not have that be an   impediment for them to stay in this house for  a long time. Uh, ensuring that our pedestrian   routes throughout the site and within buildings  are fully ADA accessible. Um, that's something we   we always shoot for, but making sure that we're  really hitting that hard as part of these types   of developments. Um and then making sure that  mobility is something that we're accounting for   um within units at all times uh to again ensure  that you know people don't feel like as they get   older and you know mobility becomes more difficult  that they have to leave these areas that they it's   going to age with them. Uh the approval process  is something else that we've talked and touched   on today. um you know, we do have a conditional  use process for for some of these um as it exists   today, but uh maybe considering making that a  little bit more objective and providing more   clear criteria for what that process looks  like. Um as Troy had mentioned earlier,   we do have the planned unit development PUD  process on the books in Carroll County today.   Um and it could help us allow for some of that  flexibility in site design, bulkan area standards,   those types of things that we've already talked  about. Um so it it's a tool we can use now. uh   would just require a more clear connection uh with  the PUD and these age restricted housing criteria.   Um part of this could include uh requiring like  a community amenities package which clearly   lays out some of those community facilities  that are being provided as part of a project.   Uh internal pedestrian circulation plans that  again show some of those other requirements   put into place and multiple different avenues of  ensuring that we're meeting all our requirements.   um such as like a two-way access or a circulation  plan that's a little bit more clear and prescribed   for emergency access. Troy had mentioned when we  were uh driving through Nell's Acres, uh even kind  

of on an off- peak time, it was pretty obvious  that parking design was going to be an issue   was an issue there. Uh it was confirmed to us uh  through some of our uh conversations and research.   Um so parking design and minimum standards are  something we've considered looking at as well.   um making sure that we're providing not only  adequate onu uh off- streetet parking for houses,   but ensuring that our design standards for streets  uh can allow for some adequate on- street parking,   but also uh clearly requiring some off- streetet  guest parking areas that are kind of, you know,   easily distributed throughout developments  to make sure that people are visiting houses,   have places to park, and they're not taking over  the streets and making things too difficult uh   for existing residents or others that are driving  through these developments. And then uh something   else we had mentioned earlier a minimum housing  type mix. So um establishing a a pretty basic   standard of we want to see a range of housing  units throughout these projects mostly retirement   villages. Uh so setting a minimum standard  for uh duplexes, town houses or or quads uh   in conjunction with single family detached. You  know there's a there's a variety of different   ways that this is done. Different levels that  different communities have gone in it. Uh some   are much more restrictive. Some are a little bit  more flexible. Um but you know certainly we think   as we projects grow in scale and size uh we would  like to see some of that uh variety of housing   units and requiring this pretty basic standard  condition and your pud already does that. So   again it's only for R7 R10,000 or R7500. So your  your PUD already includes this type of provision.   So again if we think about applying the PUD to  retirement homes villages types projects you   could easily just you know that would be a very  simple but also logical type of code amendment   that you already use it. So it's not introducing  something foreign, if you will. Um, I had talked   about a community amenity plan as part of the  approval process recommendation, but revising what   those requirements are. Uh, providing some clear  guidance on the types of community amenities we  

would like to see as part of these projects. But  again, revising the standards for uh the minimum   size of those areas when they're triggered into  effect. um certain, you know, types of projects,   whether that be villages or homes, um require a  certain scale of community areas. And then clearly   saying in there that they need to be accessible,  but um also, you know, functional and useful. Um   not, you know, small green areas that are just  randomly distributed throughout uh a large site   or a retirement village that aren't necessarily  all that useful or accessible for the residents.   And then another one be looking at our open space  calculations. Um kind of goes back to what Troy   was talking about net versus gross. Um looking  at what our underlying open space standards   should be for mostly retirement villages but also  retirement homes. Um and so looking at should we   be somewhere in the realm of like 25% of our net  developable area should be set aside as um conser   preserved open space um in conjunction to those  community amenities. Uh, and I believe this might   be the last one. Emergency access standards  as Troy talked about earlier. Very important.   Looking at uh NFPA or fire code standards that  require at minimum, you know, two-way access   um or, you know, internal circulation throughout  the site. Um, ensuring that we're not pro being   overly obstructive and making sure that it's clear  that fire apparatuses and emergency vehicles have   good access in and throughout these projects.  Not the last one, uh, sidewalk and pedestrian   standards. uh you know a lot of these are are in  interrelated uh so I won't hammer this too hard   but again really making sure that our pedestrian  standards are clear consistent and effective   uh about achieving all of our goals and objectives  with these projects. Then just wrapping up again   as we talked uh we'll take your questions  and comments and then uh then look for some   direction from you of how we would proceed of uh  possibly making these uh doing the text amendments  

in terms of walking that through the process  drafting those amendments and then that would   go through the the normal procedures for enactment  um if you will. So do you have anything to wrap up   with? Okay. No. Well, let me say thank you to all  of you for the incredible work and the amount of   time that went into this. Um, I know that this is  certainly a lot. Um, and I know that, you know,   we're certainly always looking for areas that we  can improve. And so I'm very grateful that that,   you know, all of you u set to work on this.  Uh, so I I'm certainly going to open it up   to my colleagues for discussion. And if I uh may  start with just one small question of my own. Uh,   back on the slide about emergency access  standards. Um, and I know my colleagues have all   uh gone through the report and gone through the  uh uh presentation. Um but the emergency access   uh standards. So I know that a lot of the report  and the presentation dealt with uh things like   roads, but are you also taking into account uh  emergency access to each unit from the front and   the rear? That is if a you know fire engine has to  pull up or an ambulance has to pull up. Uh you an   EMT has the ability to to get around to the back  of a unit in case of a of an emergency. There's   a snow drift or or you know there's some kind of  obstruction out front. Yeah. If you uh actually   in the report um the the doc the report document  goes into pretty good detail and actually cites   the specific standards that that addresses that  commissioner in terms of you know again again   the the that's the standard that's what all  you know fire you know response agencies are   evaluating not just hydrant location if you will  but also that addresses access rear access etc uh   to buildings. can they actually tackle, you know,  attack that fire, if you will, and get, you know,   not just maybe apparatus, but hose. So, again,  it's it's making sure that that's clear. Again,   not to saying that you aren't abiding by it,  but it just sometimes I just want to make sure   that we're having clear standards. You already  codified some of the NFPA standards elsewhere.   I've seen this might be a good opportunity just  to reiterate those in your code to reference  

that those are what we are expecting when we have  these communities being designed. Thank you very   much. I just wanted to make sure because from  my reading I just wasn't quite clear that that   but I'm glad that it is the case. So, thank  you. Yeah, the PowerPoint just summarized it,   but if actually on page uh 15 of the report um  emergency service access truly does site uh the   NFP1 fire code access road location requirements,  access road specifications, obstructions,   and then it also references uh how your county  code uh talks about uh some of these requirements   for access and fire protection um as well. So,  um, yeah, the bottom line is what the code says   is what we should be making sure that those are,  um, we're elevating those to a level of importance   from a design standpoint. Thank you very much, my  colleagues. Um, I've got several questions. Um, I understand aging in place. I don't understand  why it would be a requirement. People People move   every five years. people people want over 55, but  they don't want aging in place. They want over 55.   Many of them still work. Um I'm a hair over 55. I  don't want any of that. Um I live in a three-story   farmhouse. Um so, uh many move. Nell's acres I  think met all the fire requirements when it was   approved. Um, and uh, I respect your opinion,  but many communities, 90% of the communities,   particularly high-end communities, you couldn't  get to their backyard with a golf cart if you and   had a and had a gun. My daughter's has a retaining  wall on one side and a shared access with her   neighbor on the other side that you probably could  have get a golf cart through, but you can't get a  

fire truck through. And that's okay. That meets  the law. That meets the standards. I I I I hate   to see us get too excessive with uh standards. And  again, uh one of my other comments is uh landowner   rights. Again, my house, it's been there since  1854. Nicely put. Um I don't care what Manchester   thinks about it. um they can buy it or not buy it,  but um it it's I should have the right to have the   house I want. Um and I'm curious, Nell's Acres,  did you get many complaints from anybody there?   I know every house built there was sold before it  was completed. And and I think uh they knew how   long their driveway was. They knew how wide the  road was. Um and they're happy. So, I get to tell   them they're unhappy. Yeah. So, a lot of questions  there, Commissioner. I'll try to go back. So,   so in terms of retirement, and I got a lot  more, but if I may, I didn't I thought you might   have been finished there, Commissioner. No, no,  good. So, so re re retirement or aging in place,   if you will. Again, my my mom and dad are near 80.  Uh they've lived in their uh 1976 ranch home since   they've done, and my dad still uh does sawmilling.  there would be no way my dad would go into to a   that's not his style. He's like you farm boy. Um  you know country living loves it. But again people   want those types of products. They want to move  maybe out of congested urban areas go to a place.   So again there's a there's a consumer market  choice for those products. And what we're seeing   in the industry is that um they want to they've  made they this is their next retirement. This is   probably where they want to try to least live for  out their aging years. Again, the whole idea is   that, you know, you're not providing continuing  care, but you're actually providing choices and   options for them as they maybe say, "Hey, I bought  this single family two devel um when I first  

retired at 55. Um now I'm probably near 6570 and I  thought I don't need all this space. I'm I I don't   want to do all this." So again, having the options  first and foremost is is important. Um in terms of   uh uh Nell's acres, we're not saying that's a in  terms of people are unhappy. It's quite frankly   probably one of your few uh retirement villages  in the county. Uh and I think what we're getting   at is, you know, if you look around otherware,  you you might potentially losing market share.   People that want to stay or move to Carol County  because of the rural environment that you have,   good quality of life. Um that's really kind of one  of the minimal products that you have. So again,   it's not to say that they're unhappy because  they bought it. It's like almost fully built out,   right? But if given other choices, if you had  choices to choose from, if you're spending that   type of money, where would you want to spend  it? I think we're also trying to think about   the consumer. Are you getting, you know, are  you getting, you've got choices elsewhere,   right up the road in Frederick, right up the  road in Gettysburg. Um, that's competition in   your backyard. Um, so again, depends if you move  to Pennsylvania and want to have your retirement   not taxed. Um, hallelujah. Um, or if you want to  stay in in Maryland and and but go to Bloomfield,   you've got competition. So again, it's not  saying that's a bad product. If you just compare   it to other relative type of products, you could  start to say and on the fire access, absolutely,   we're not saying it doesn't meet fire code. It's  just one where um as long as you're fire chief,   they're satisfied with it. It does meet code,  but again, thinking about um it's pretty tight   spaces. I'm sure they can get apparatus to fight  it. Whether they have a ladder truck or not,   um I don't know. But it's just making sure as a  planning commissioner myself, we always look at   those things. Can you actually It doesn't mean you  have to get a a truck behind there, but can you   get the hose? Is it accessible? Is it easy to get  through there? Or do we have all this storm water?   I mean, this is encumbered by storm water. I mean,  the last thing we want is a serious flooding issue   like we had last year. I mean, uh, I had nine  inches of water in my basement after that one  

hurricane. If the fire company had to come, I'm  not their priority. Um, but again, if you're if   you're thinking about where they're putting open  space and storm water basins and backyards, that's   a problem number one. And number two is if it's a  flooding event, you got a fire going on and they   can't get to the back there because it's flooded.  It doesn't matter if it's if a truck or a walking,   they're you're that that place is burning down.  Um, and property rights absolutely. You know,   not saying that you care, but again, it's  consumer choice. It's also how you are giving   uh the best and and the best product that you can  provide within re reason in Carol County because   again it's competition. Uh you want you somebody  made the comment about living here, working here,   etc. is very important. This is where you grew  up. This is where you want to stay. So let's   make sure that we don't lose them to Gettysburg or  Frederick or some other area because they've got   maybe products that are meeting their needs. Plus  the demand's there, right? So again, it's already   built out in El's acres probably pretty full.  There's more demand coming down the road. So it's   it's it's also to looking at those projects and  say, "Hey, what would we do differently?" And I   agree. But do we want to require that they can't  be different? It's all in the balance. I want to   give an example. Plum Creek in Hanover, which  is pretty close. Yep. Um nobody wants a Well,   I I'll get the lot size. Uh a halfacre lot. Uh not  too many seniors want uh not too many young people   want. They don't want the maintenance. Yeah. And  but Plum Creek, you're in a cottage. A lot of them   are duplexes, pretty small, you're in that. If you  need different accessibility, you move. And if you   need the nursing home care, you move, right? And  and it's all in the same community, which I think  

is a great choice. But very few people buy at  55, 60 the house they want to die in. They buy   something for their age now. And some of them go  to these communities where they can get more care.   Some don't. And and yeah, like you you talked  about parents. My mother lived in a two-story   house until she was 92. And and uh she wanted to  be home. she didn't want to be someplace else. Um,   lot size. Um, and and I agree with open spaces.  Now, for recreation, what people want by far is   walking paths. They can be around a stormwater  management pond. They can be in a slightly   rougher area. And and and I have no problem with  that. I can't imagine too many 60 year olds want   a soccer field. Um and they definitely don't want  the local rec council playing in their community.   Um walks are a big issue. Um 36 inch is allowed.  You you were saying up on 50% or more. My gosh,   does that cost money in storm drains, storm  water management. Um which which all goes   to the price of the house. So you've now  made the house unaffordable. Um, there's   nothing wrong with 36 inch walks. Now, certain  areas maybe you should have some wider walks,   but to say I want all you guys say 65 foot wide.  Yeah. And that's that's ridiculous as far as storm   water management storm drains. Same thing with  making the streets wider. I've heard comments, oh,   changing from a 22 foot wide street to 30 doesn't  affect storm drain. Well, if if you've ever built  

those or you've ever developed lots, my gosh, it  it jacks the cost where um and and there's two   issues. Uh as a developer, I'm going to press  all that onto the lot. If the market doesn't   allow that, I I'm not going to do it. I'm going  to go to another county. Um Frederick County made   some changes and saw very little development in in  that. I love what you talked about PUDS. We we you   know again Frederick County was awesome with that,  but and you talked about some R7500, R10,000. Um   that's lot sizes that seniors want. Not not R20  and definitely not R40. And they don't care if the   community ms the grass or not. They just don't  want it. And and if you have a halfacre lot,   you don't need a community center. You don't need  a pool. You can put the one behind your house. Got   your open space in your backyard. Exactly. So So  there's nothing wrong with smaller lots and and   even our normal clustering. Um my humble opinion,  we should we should look at maybe three per acre   at at the at the max, not not R20. But that's  that's a whole another subject. So that's that's   kind of Yeah. And if I could just address on the  rambling. Yeah. No, those are great comments,   Commissioner on the on the sidewalk five foot.  You know, one thing that we look at is, you know,   ADA requirements now every so often you have to  have where wheelchair passibility it's 5T and   do that. I think one thing I think about in my  own neighborhood and I see it all the time. Um,   how many people walk on a 36 inch sidewalk?  Nobody. Everybody walks in the road. So, if you're   thinking about myself included, you can't walk  to a breast on a 36 unless you're, you know, uh,   your your two children walking on there. It's very  difficult to try to actually walk together. Again,  

I I want to contradict that. The area we used to  be in actually town of Manchester allowed blacktop   sidewalks 36 in. So, again, I saw a lot of people  walking their dogs with a glass of wine. Um,   and they were fine with those 36. I think it's  just more about what I what we've seen. Well,   it depends on traffic. If Exactly. I'm walking the  street, too. And I think part of it is in in a in   a retirement type community. The safety part of  it is make sure that the accommodations are on the   sidewalk to encourage people to use the sidewalks.  So again, that's where even my township,   we went to all five foot sidewalks because you're  going to require five foot at some point. Yeah,   it's a cost. We know that it's more storm water,  but storm water requirements is you must provide   for it on site. Nothing. It's it's pre-development  versus post-development. So, we get it, but we   made a decision for walkability and accessibility.  A half mile from you, they might have 36. Well,   or there's no sidewalk. There's a sidewalk to  nowhere sometimes, right, Commissioner T? So,   again, it there's a lot of, you know, a lot to  unpack there in terms of requirements. And again,   I think the the the the PUD you can start to see  it gives you the flexibility. And I think you made   a great point um with respect to the 7500 and  R10,000. I mean, why not have the these types   of projects, retirement villages, retirement  communities um involved in that PUD process   because a lot of these design standards could be  instead of being very specific and in particular,   you could actually have the flexibility in that  PUD process to get the project out that actually   is more suitable to the property to the to the  landowner, etc. That's where I think that that   flexibility is so much better on both sides uh of  the coin in terms of these uh applications coming   through. And I want us I want us always looking  at these details, but but I just I I don't want   to see us require developers out of Carroll County  and that's happened in other counties and and I've  

seen it and and there's a reason. Um I did 3,000  lots in Frederick County. I think I did four   in Carol County and they weren't too bad to deal  with, but but yeah, it's definitely striking chose   to do where we where we had le I think the other  part of it is, you know, you've got great planning   and zoning commission members that are volunteers.  They're all over the from the county in different   parts and you know, as volunteers go, they're  subject matter experts by day and then they come   to the meetings and then this is their volunteer  job. They may or may not be like Seth and I who   are certified planners, if you will, trained like  Daphne and Chris are. We do this every day. So,   this comes natural. You know, you're expecting  those volunteers to understand these projects.   Some do, some don't. And back to Pennsylvania,  most of your town managers are farmers. Yeah.   They're not professional land planners and and  and they can make very good decisions as our   planning commission and our BCA has made very  good decisions. I don't always agree with them.   But I that where I was going at is making sure  they've got standards at least in the ordinance   to say this is what we're evaluating. What's our  evaluations based upon? What they should be based   upon? And these are some of the design principles,  criteria, if you will, that they could say, "Hey,   going through this, have you considered this  piece? Have you considered this?" And then the   PUD then gives you the opportunity again that  flexibility to either wish or don't wish that   we impose that type of standard on this type of  project. And thank you guys. And uh um and I'm   not buttering you up. It's too late. You you  look better in person than I Well, we all do.   The camera definitely does doesn't do justice,  right, Commissioner? So, thank you. I'm done. Any other comments or questions from my  colleagues? You guys go first. I'll finish. Tom,   Mike, anything off the top of your head? Go ahead,  Commissioner Krabs, if you'd like to. I just want  

to hear from you guys. You've heard from me so  much. No, I appreciate your um all your work on   this and everything you said um is what I've been  I feel the same way and this most of this is in   my district. I can tell you that the people in  my district want this product. They're moving   out of my count out of my area a lot and they're  moving out of state, but they're also moving to   Frederick and they're moving to Pennsylvania to  these very products and that's why I know about   them because I've gone to see them and I um cry  when I see them. They don't want to leave. They   want to stay where their families are and they  want to and there's other places in the county.   We have them up at really nice. We have some other  products um up in Tonytown. Um excuse me, Carol   Vista. Carol Vista, which is an older product,  but and they're having parking problem. They're   having road problems now because the widths are  not as wide as they wish they are, but you can't   make them wider. But um the functionality, as you  mentioned in Nell's Acres, uh what the only thing   you said incorrectly in the whole thingres it was  R4,000. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. or 40,000. Now,   I threw that in there just to see if you would  were paying attention. The only thing I that's   the only thing I thought you did a good job. My  apologies and thank you for correcting the record   on that. The only there's a couple things that  um might be unique to Carol County. I I mean,   I think your presentation was great. I think these  things need to be put into code and for not only   the reason of predictability for the developer,  predictability for the community and getting a   better product and having more marketable project  and for people. I think this is going to be a huge   demand. I was up in Frederick a few weeks ago. It  was unbelievable how many people were looking at   these open houses. They're selling by the week  they're selling five and six a week because   it's such a great product. Now it's a lot bigger  property. Um, very nicely done. I happen to have   a home in one of the communities that the same  developer is doing. That's phenomenal. It's not   over 55, but they're people want the they they're  on smaller lots obviously because they don't want   to take care of things. It's maintained by the  community association. Maintenancefree is a big we  

don't mention that, but maintenancefree obviously  is something comes with this because as we age,   I know some people like to cut the grass into  old age, but some people don't want to fool   with it. I've never met the I'm getting there,  commissioners. But but um the couple things that   we need to look at you keep me me talking about  the conditional uses. I don't know exactly how it   works but the standard in our county and it's  a legal standard or something that usually is   applied from what I understand is is it make is  it worse off in this spot versus some other spot   and that's it. They don't come in and put all  these other um they're not looking at it in a   technical way like the planning commission would.  And I'm not familiar with the PUD uh concept and   how exactly that would work. I still think the  more more expectations that you have up front,   the very same developers, the very same builders  are building in Amberbrook that would come and   do it here, but they're they're putting not the  product here. And um and they have the designs,   they have they're doing them there. They're  beautiful. It's a beautiful community. So,   the product is there. It's just they're going  to build the least possible because it is there.   It's it's a building to the standard. Building to  the standard in the ordinance and and you know,   I think we can have higher standards here in  Carol County because we're a great place to   live and I think everyone will benefit from that.  It doesn't affect the price people say it does.   These products that are are meaning the minimum  standard are still selling for $750,000. So,   that a high price and those same price is at these  other places that have the higher standard. So   that's the market that I'm seeing cuz I've been to  them on I have all the brochures. So they seem to   be not a lot difference in the prices. That's  the market you're competing in, right? It's a   market we're competing in. So you know some of it  is what's really happening based what what could   happen. So the one issue on the conditional use  we just maybe the attorney um Tim can help with   what our standards are and why they are if it  would be different. But Nell's acres went through   the conditional use process and their standard  was is it worse off here than somewhere else?   Yet they were never told that it was happening at  a failing intersection because that wasn't part of  

their I don't know. I'm just saying that did not  stop it from being built even and it's still at a   failing intersection. It's still the intersection  is still not solved. So those issues did not get   caught for whatever reason when it got to the  through the conditional use process. So that is   um something that we just got to figure out. Also  in the state the legislature just passed and I'm   talking to Chris back there. The legislature just  passed one of the governor's bills is to expedite   the planning process. And I'm not um arguing with  the fact that it shouldn't take five years to get   plans through a process. Um but there is some  happy medium. I think they made it like six   months after to a complete application. I don't  remember. I got to read the bill. 30 days. Well,   whatever it is, whatever it is, it's a standard.  I don't know how it's going to be met, but it's   going to mean more than ever for everything that  we do that everybody knows upfront what what the   expectations are. And they should know upfront  here's what you know, here's what we'd like to   have. Here's what you need to have. Um but even  more than ever for everything we do, we've got to   make sure otherwise it's going to get approved  and we're going to end up with a mess because   we don't have clear standards on many things.  So, um while we're talking about this stuff,   I think we should I haven't read the bill yet. I  just saw the synopsis of it, but I was going to   bring it up later. Um, the effect of this bill on  our total plan approval process in the future to   make sure we all know here's what you need to do  because I don't know what a complete application   looks like. Um, but we want to make it better for  all parties, even the development community. They   time is money for them. So, the more they hold  on to a piece of property, the more it's going   to raise their holding cost and the more they  got to pass that along. So, it's it's, you know,   I I definitely am committed to that to that piece  of it. So um that and also we we had talked about   product type. It didn't come up enough but  the whole first floor living issue is huge   for people. You know when you have a threetory  building and you your square footage is based  

on a third a third and a third. As you age you  can't use those two/3s. It's hard. It's tougher.   Most of these products the majority of the uh it's  either they're two stories. So you have optional   finished basement or optional finished upstairs or  they're one level most of them. And that's what I   want to make sure that the square footage over you  mentioned Wifford Manor the square it's all one   floor. Uh the condos are on one floor. So having  the majority of the space um or enough living area   uh on a single level. You mentioned your mother  lives in a a somebody did in a rancher. That's   why they can stay there. My mother's 92 and she  lives in a two big two-story house. She can't do   the steps, but thank goodness they moved from a  rancher 30 years ago and they put a first floor   bedroom at first floor so she can still live  there. But many people that's been their their   problem and they don't move. People don't want to  move twice. Moving is very very challenging. You   want to move once. You want to make a move.  And I said that 20 years ago to my wife,   I'm not moving again unless the good Lord makes me  do it. But you want to make that one downsize. I I   believe the people that I come in contact with and  I've been I am older than you are and I have do   hang out at the senior center with these seniors  who talk to me all the time about this and um in   my community this is what they're looking for. So  the commissional use piece is a thing. Also I've   read a bunch of ordinances from other counties um  and mo everyone that I've read has something in   the deed restriction. We don't have anything in  our deed restriction at all for this for the um   the properties to make sure because that becomes  a problem later if people stop doing it. It it   can't be controlled by the homeowner association  because then if they don't control we lose we a   lot of these projects are happening because of  schools or and because you get extra density by   doing this even though you have to give nothing  in return. So um if there's got to be something   that makes them stay that way. Yeah. I I know we  talked about that before and I we might have been   remiss in because it's a small detail but it's  an important detail. I didn't I mean I missed I  

read this last night. This is good because um you  know again you want to make sure and we we again I   just use my example where's oftentimes we we as a  condition of approval we'll make a recommendation   that hey you need to make sure that that's placed  in the deed not only on the site plan for approval   but also on the in the deed that's recorded for  the property. And then even sometimes too we make   sure that you know when people are consumers are  buying you it's a notification. So there's a lot   of tools but yeah the deed restriction tying it  back to make sure that it's like now you can't   it's it's 55 plus that's what it is that's what  it should be and it needs and it was in every   code that I read I read Frederick I wrote even  our towns had the restriction we did we don't   have it in our code so make sure it's required  in our code. I'm not sure if we make them do it.   I don't think we do but if it's in if it's in  there we they h it has to be done. Um what was   the other things conditional and the pud process  I don't know how many we've done the first when   I first moved to Carol County 40 some years ago  I moved into they told me at the time the first   pud it was in Carol town it was starter homes it  was very nicely done but I don't know exactly how   our pud process works and if we use it but but we  need to make sure those requirements are the whole   part that's difficult for us is the scalability  because obviously if you got a thousand houses   you can do a lot more than you can do with 30  houses. So, we got to be reasonable with that.   And I'm not sure how they do it with the smaller  um you know, 200. Right now, your putt, I think,   correct me, Daffany and Chris, I think it's 20  acres is the minimum track size that that you   can start out with. So, again, um um you know,  smaller projects less than that, you know,   then it it's a different animal. You know, you've  got such a small area to work with to begin with.   So again, you want to make sure and I think the  20 acres is a standard that I've seen elsewhere   um be applied in terms of the the entry point  of when the it could trigger a PUD type of use,   right? And and we didn't visit this one project,  which is a small one, but there's an area that's   right in the middle of the community and they  just took the the property and it's not very big   and they just said we're going to call it over  55 and they just put a bunch of town houses in  

there. And so even though it's over 55, it's a  small, it might be 20 houses, 20, I'm not sure,   but just by calling it over 55, they got all  the extra density, but nothing came with it,   right? And so that one we didn't really point  out, but it's and I know it's not 20 acres, but   it literally was a piece of property in the middle  of a neighbor. It's a higher density neighborhood,   but they just jammed a whole bunch of stuff in  there with with not enough I don't think there's   enough parking either. Um, so the conditional  use piece, the just understanding what we have   in place. And then the one of the issues we've had  is the site plan versus subdivision plan. I I was   reading state law the other day. I started looking  up the code and it was 700 pages long. I read up   to page 400. And in state code, it says we have  to have 30 foot wide roads. And so I'm not sure   um like at Nell's Acres, it says right in the  plan, you may not have parking on these roads.   Well, it's unrealistic to say you can't park.  People are going to have to have a place to   park. They're not they can't just park in their  driveway in their garage and have visitors.   There's not enough space. But it's it said it in  the in in their in the documents. You may not have   parking. You can't have parking. But we can't  require parking signs. We can't require lines.   We can't require enforcability. So people do park  and then the then they can't get down. Then it's   not wide enough. That's why they're parking on the  sidewalks because it's not required and there's no   enforcability. And how does your friend that's  come to visit know that there's no parking? How   do you know that there's no parking? It says it  in this report that was So that's part of the   problem. I don't know why I every place that I've  looked at and talked to their site plan and sub   subdivision plan are the same. Those requirements  ours for some reason are different. So we need to   make sure that they're treated the same because  all of these will be site plans, right? Because   they're one property. Yeah. Theoretically, I mean  that's, you know, in terms of a site plan and then   there's a subdivision plan. So yeah, it comes down  to usually if it's one site going through the the   development process, it's a site plan versus  a whole subdivision. And and most of the and  

I'm not storm water seems to be running the any  any state requirements and federal requirements,   but it seems like storm water is is um it seems to  be a priority of everybody versus just you need to   find a balance. Most of these developments, the  ones that I've talked to the people, they they're   putting them underground uh or they're doing them.  It's not between all of these units. So, you know,   making sure that we look at alternatives for the  storm water and if they're going to put things   close together, they might have to put them  underground. And some of the good developers   do that and they automatically do it. I'm not  sure what the cost is, but at least it's not   taking up the open space, the considered open  spaces, not, you know, storm water swirls. Um,   let's see what else here. Oh, in terms of the  sidewalks, I I appreciate what you said about the   sidewalks. Um, one of the first things that came  to mind, one of our older retirement homes, um,   it's Homeland. I rode in there to see it. I hadn't  seen it in a long time. I rode down there. There   was a lady in a wheelchair with her dog going  down the middle of the street. And I had to wait   for her to get down to the end of the street. And  I'm like, why is she in the middle of the street?   Well, the sidewalk was up against the building,  three foot wide, and then the cars were so close   to it that they were parked over the sidewalk and  you couldn't walk down the sidewalk. Well, this   woman in a wheelchair had to walk in the middle  of the street to take a walk. That made me angry   that we allow that. And I showed Mr. Hind and he  agreed with me. We We need to do better. These are   our seniors. I care about them and we're going to  make these products that we can be proud of. That   building, mostly older women live there. It's a  more affordable place. The sidewalk should have   been wider and we should have had something called  a verge. Do you know what a verge is? You know   what a verge is? The new word that we learned.  It's a little grass strip between the road and   the sidewalk. And you have that because then if  somebody goes over the sidewalk, then they're  

into the grass. They're not onto the sidewalk. So,  thank you for teaching me a new word instead of   the little grass strip. And those little grass  strips, some of them are like this. And nice   developers make them wider. Um, and you can tell  now when I go into development, I look immediately   and I can say they're usable. Yeah, they're usable  and that um that's where people walk their dogs.   Also called the tree lawn, whatever. So um you  know I agree with you that you can't two people   can't walk down a three-foot sidewalk and that's  why they do end up in the street. So I put the   and and on these these communities that's what we  want. We want people to be walking and talking.   That's the whole point of doing it. So, I'm all in  favor of doing you, they all doing five walks up,   four to five foot sidewalks and making sure that  the driveways are wide enough that you can open   your car doors because you have to park in the  driveway because there's nowhere to park on the   street out acres that you can open your door  without hitting the other car or open the door   and still be on the on firm ground and not in the  grass. when we had all the snow this winter. They   are seniors and they should be able to stand on  firm ground and they should also be able to stand   on something that is not so tilted that some of  these driveways are so tilted that they're on   an angle that's not handicap accessessible  needs to be flat. And again, we're talking   about developments that um aging in place um gross  versus I don't know if you want me to go through   all this. I agreed with everything that you you  talked about and just pointed out those those few   things that we don't need to look into a little  more carefully and I didn't know what um the one   um issue we have now with the code and I I read  everything you said our our code and and um master   plan are written it's being the interpretation  of what it says that's being applied that is   the problem the interp I mean they A I've said  this many times. It says clearly in the book,   you know, on R20 what type of housing it should  be. And on R40, it doesn't say anywhere you can   deviate from that except in a chart somewhere  else. There's a little letter everywhere. It's  

very consistent with the housing for our current  law. That interpretation has been changed. It says   this is the use. Single family home is the use in  R20. Doesn't say may be the use. It says is the   use in the master plan. and it's been interpreted  because it's this that it could be interpreted as   something else and it doesn't say that anywhere  and so that's what I I've you know tried to make   clear because it in clear words here and here but  somewhere there was a chart made and somebody put   a C that the where zoning appeals could make it  different I don't know how you can interpret the   words into a chart that yeah and I we've talked  about that one that goes back to the way the the   county plan and the future land use description  of residential medium and high residential medium   does it it's it says uh single family detached  is the use it ex says that then residential   medium says is the predominant use so that the  differentiation one thing I would I think at   least my interpretation of that commissioner if  you read further down in that description it does   call out retirement 55 plus um so in my opinion  my opinion um if you interpret that over to the   zoning code the table the use table you're talking  about single family detached dwelling is a per use   permitted by right. So that's telling me that's  the predominant use. But also that description   back in the master plan calls out retirement  homes etc 55 plus are also an appropriate use   in that residential medium district. If you apply  that over to the zoning code, then it provides for   retirement uh villages, for example, and then it  provides for different types of housing choices,   but those are conditional uses only. Um, in the uh  R, help me, Deafany. R 20 are um the cheap, sorry,   a cheat. You're talking about the retirement  villages. It's it's a commit a conditional use  

two family dwelling in a retirement village. um  conditional use in the R20 R20 R10 and R7500. So   it allows for but by condition commissioner. So  again the way I interpret it is when it says it   is the use single family detached it's interpreted  in the code as condition it's permitted by right   there's no conditions on it. It does provide for  in the definition for future land use retirement   55 plus. If you go to the zoning code, it provides  for that use, but then it gives the different   types of uh uh residential types. Two family  dwellings or town houses uh could be actually a   part of that retirement village, but those are by  condition. So, Right. But they also says the word   predominantly, and predominantly is not 100%. And  it it really Yeah. And I I like to think about the   plan the planning document is that 60,000 foot  policy document that's here. And then there's   enough flexibility there that when you write the  zoning code, there is consistency. uh between the   two in our opinion um the way we wrote our report.  So again that's we've talked about that and I   think that that's the way I would and you're right  the next one residential high is in the definition   of the future land use it's prescriptive um it  comes out to me in terms of but that was all done   uh numerous years ago if you will um I think the  opportunity is to think about how do we then think   about these types of products in the zoning code  and we talk about the better product that we want   to see design etc. That's what I think we have  the ability to change. I just want to make sure   the ones that are in progress get changed because  that's all we have left. It's the only So, one of   the um other questions scale alignment chart  alignment process where conditional uses. Oh,   the name um we c this is little but we call  retirement homes. Not everybody's retired and   everybody else call I'm not sure how we came up  with it. It's a long long time ago. Most of them   call it active age restricted or something like  that. Just I I think it'd be nice to change the   title because people are moving in at 55 and  they're not retired. They might not be retire.  

So it's just retirement used to be they used to be  retirement homes for old people. Now this is a new   thing. It is for age restricted people. We think  of retirement homes as like a continuum continuum   care. So I think it be a little more yeah it's a  marketing thing. It's a marketing thing. I think   a little upgraded. So come up with a y what there  most of them are called active age restricted or   whatever. um just marketing. That's a great point.  And I'm not sure what the process is going to be   in the future, but um I won't go on anymore  because I think uh I think you covered a lot   of it. Um the some of it is about the basing it on  the underlying zoning and the land use. The reason   we're we're not getting a variety. That's been my  problem. We're not getting the variety of house.   We're getting all the same thing. They're all 100%  threetory town houses and they're small. They're   they're narrow. They're small. Plus, we're not in  the other pieces with the safe the safety issues,   the road issues are very big. I've had so many  fire people approach me. And it's not just about   fire, it's about EMS. When you got rows of eight  or seven houses and you can't get around to the   back and you can't get through, um, you got to  sometimes they're getting more and more calls from   these a everybody's aging. Our fire department  is getting way more EMS calls, not fire calls,   but EMS calls. And so, we need to make sure that  they are accessible if something's in the rear.   Um, so that's uh they have been pointing  coming to me thanking me for um helping   with this because it's been they've been raising  a red flag for years on it and we haven't changed   the code. So I I appreciate that on the behalf  of our volunteers and our new fire departments   that we make it easier for them. Okay, thank you  commissioner. So whatever the next process is,   I will get more involved in the details, but you  laid it I think you laid it out very well. Thank   you very much. and the universal design. We talked  about this last year in our work and a housing   affordability work group. drafting will remember  that and I know there's a whole bunch of things   you can have and some are nice and some don't  cost any more money and I mean there's something  

called a peepphole and it's like okay maybe you  should have a peep when you're older that and you   don't think about that but hey you're living alone  you're a woman living alone you want to see who's   knocking at your door okay requiring it is no big  deal you just don't think about it but hey um and   there there are number of other things but Howard  County took a balanced approach they they said   these you must do and these we recommend you do or  but but you wouldn't maybe think about them some   of them is just a lever handle versus a doorork  knob because when you're older sometimes you you   need to push the lever and doesn't cost any more  money. It's just another way of doing things. So,   and there's a few examples, but as we walk through  them, I would hope and suggest that we would   um not just include the planning commission. I'd  like to see us go to one of the senior centers,   the senior center where these are and talk to  people there and say, "What kinds of things?   Here's the list. Here's the ideas. What do you  think?" Because they're the people that are the   that's your um audience. That's who's and then  just get a feel from them what they believe in   because um that's who I'm hearing from and that's  what I'd like to and now that I'm getting there I   understand their issue. So I just think that would  be helpful reach a reach out on you get down to   some of the details of what things are important.  I know zero entry is very important. At Nell's   Acres you have two steps. There's not even a rail  you have to put it's aftermarket. They're all   different. So I I think having that zero entry,  everyone I went to has zero entry. It just means   you have a little lip there and you can take a  wheelchair over it or walk up into it. And I think   most are doing that. So I thank you for your all  of your work. I think you uh hit the nail on the   head. We think like I appreciate you taking the  tour and seeing you know seeing what we have in   place. Yeah. Well, that's is our pleasure and uh  we appreciate the opportunity to help and we want   and the other thing is time is of the essence and  I know we've said that all along. I'm sorry we're   delayed this long. So, as much as we can expedite  this. Yeah. That's why of the four categories,   we we got direction from Chris and Daphne to say,  "Make this one the top priority." That came from   us. The board asked them to do that, too. We don't  That's true. Yep. And Yep. They definitely they're  

passing it through. No, they did. No, they did.  And we appreciate that because we don't These   are the ones that have active projects that we  want to make sure they know what's the ex what   the expectations are. The other ones don't have  the as active as projects or as important. So,   we appreciate anything we can do to facilitate  that. Um, moving it along. And that's where our   next step would be if we get your blessing and  direction forward here. Do you need any more   direction than do you need anything else from us?  Do you have direction? Well, before we I'm sorry.   Yeah. Before we get too far along in there, I  know Commissioner Garren had one or two things   he wanted to say. And then to follow up, if I  may, something on that Commissioner Krebs said,   I know it asked earlier about uh rear emergency  access to the buildings, right? So, I went back   and I read through the report again while we were  sitting here and it talks about exterior doors,   distances to roads, hose length, sprinkler  systems, access roads, uh, but specifically uh,   you know, when there's an emergency, what I'm I  guess maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier and I   apologize for that. Getting a physical body  into the building to respond to something.   And as Commissioner Krebs had alluded to, I've  heard from numerous fire and EMS people that   getting into a building specifically, not just  being able to fight a fire from a distance is,   you know, matters. Um, so I I just want to make  sure again that that uh that's being taken into   account that somebody can actually physically  get into a building because if you have so many   units together in a row, it's tough to get like  if it's the middle house you have to respond to.   You have to run around the entire building and  get into the back and if there's no rear access   road to it. Yeah. And that would be one where it  comes down to where the building code. So again,   zoning code versus building code um has those  types of requirements and like like even like fire   escapes and things like that, access to the actual  building. Um but uh certainly we can do some more   research on that through an FPA, but typically  what you're finding here, what we've written   out is relatable to the zoning or site development  code in terms of the site layout and design versus   the building fire code requirements um in terms  of getting into the building itself. And I would  

very much appreciate uh if you would look into  that because again uh from firefighters and EMTs   who have spoken to me uh you again if there is no  you can't pull a vehicle up behind the building   and they have to get to the back of the building.  Um you know I've heard of a number of instances   uh down in Commissioner Kreb's uh district where  that is the case where you know that difficulty   of getting to the rear impinges their efforts  to provide emergency assistance. So thank you   very much for that. Thank you. And you know, you  just brought up an issue about the building code   versus the zoning code. And I don't know how  that works because some of it you don't see in   the zoning. It actually is in the building code.  And I I don't know what version we use. I don't   even know where it is. But that is something I  think we should make sure that that that building   code that we're using is up to date. I mean, I  don't never looked at it because some of that   stuff is in that code. It depends on what I'm sure  you've dropped the international building code and   the international residential code. So yeah, it  would be uh separate from what we're doing here,   but it definitely would be one just to as the  commissioner here talked about just, you know,   use this opportunity to check that to make  sure you've adopted the current standard.   Yeah. And I don't know if it's easier on some  of these things to put some of that. I don't   know what the developers look at if they look  at that that code and if everybody uses the   same code or not. They Yeah, we try to not not  mix and match building versus zoning. You know,   you you want to keep the building code separate.  How do we make sure as I the few places that I've   talked to, even Westminster, they like with  site plans and subdivision plans, they they   have the same requirements. We don't. We have  different requirements, and I'm not sure why. So,   I want to make sure that, you know, if you need  to have a road a certain width, it should be   a certain width, whether it's in a site plan or  subdivision plan. So, I don't know where that came   from, but I I just want to and I've asked in in  Frederick, it's the same. I think it's in Howard.   They don't have a differentiation. I want to  make sure that we clearly know that I don't care   if it's a site plan, it has to be followed for  those safety issues. It can't it's got to be the   same. Understood. Thank you. For the retirement  communities especially. Commissioner Garren,   I know you had Yeah. Uh thank you. So, um I'm I'm  pleased with what we're we're seeing here. the the  

board understood that this was going to be a huge  undertaking, which is why we took the approach we   did with spending county taxpayer dollars to  get a good consultant to help us work through   these things because they are very important. Um,  obviously for people who are listening, you they   they need to understand that, you know, we do have  eight municipalities within Carol County and these   things do not apply to those municipalities.  So the towns you live in make those decisions   and sometimes they do a good job with them and  sometimes they don't and then sometimes they have   to go back and try to try to fix things. Um this  this is not just about for me this is not just   about doing better because we always need to be  doing better. Um this is not just about sort of   you know making sure we've got a good product. I  mean we've all got our own personal experiences   here. My both my parents are 80 years old and  they were looking for something like this where   they moved. They moved out of uh Delaware to North  Carolina and these are the type of communities,   neighborhoods that people want to move to. Do  they need a pool and all these amenities? No.   But they need something. They need a they want a  you know central location where they can meet and   do things. It's they do want some paths that are  wide enough. And generally speaking, that's what   that's what people are asking for. And that's  pretty it's pretty standard stuff. Obviously,   safety needs to be a factor as well, but it's this  is also about the the county's economic viability   going forward. I mean, these are the neighborhoods  that people are wanting to move into these age   restricted neighborhoods. People are not retiring  at 55. And if they do, they are not just sitting   around. I'm 57. It's, you know, hard for me to  believe that sometimes I'm I'm qualified to move   into one of these neighborhoods and no, nothing  in my life's slowing down. That's right. So, this   is about the county's economic viability moving  forward. I mean, this is what people expect out   of their elected officials at the county level,  you know, looking forward to the future, and this  

is the future. So, again, I I'm pleased. I I feel  like we we made the right decision in going down   this path because it's an enormous undertaking.  Um and uh I'm I'm I'm ready to move forward   with these recommendations. I think it's in the  moving in the right direction for sure. Um and   um I'm thankful for the fact that, you know, we've  got some good staff to to make sure these things   are they're happening and our desires and wishes  as we move forward are are being conveyed to you.   So again, thank you very much for all this. Uh  very thorough. you you clearly know the subject,   you are the subject matter experts because it  is a lot to take in. Um so appreciate it very   much. Thank you, Commissioner. Appreciate it.  Commissioner Gordon, is there anything you wanted   to add? I'm going to be really brief. Um truly  appreciate all the hard work and dedication to   this. I know this was quite the undertaking,  not just for you all, but also our staff and   uh really appreciate the uh the scope of work  here. Thank you. And thank you and thanks for   the coordination. Thanks staff. Thanks. Thank  you staff. I've said it like out loud, right? Just play it over and over and over. Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Any direction from the board?   Move the board of commissioners direct staff to  work with the planning and zoning commission on   potential amendments to county code chapters 155  and 158 related to retirement homes and retirement   villages. We have a motion. I'm sorry. We have a  motion and we have a second. we have any further   discussion? I would just like to add, it doesn't  have to be part of the motion. I've asked if we   could have at least one um opportunity for not for  people to come up here in three minutes and talk,   but to have a conversation with a group of seniors  at the senior center at South Carol because this   is where it is and just invite people to come  and and and maybe give them this presentation   something like this of what we're looking at and  get their feedback. And then on the universal   design features in particular, that might be  something you get feedback from people on. Um,  

I just think it would be a good outreach of what  we're doing because I think what we're doing here   is phenomenal. We're catching up. We're catching  up to Ana. We're catching up to Har. We're   catching up to Frederick. We're catching up to  what people want. We're catching up to Delaware.   We're catching up to Pennsylvania. And I think  this is the future. And it's in my district. And   I'm so proud of it and I'm so excited. And I um I  think the economic development piece of it, I know   there's push back from some folks that say, "Oh,  we need more housing." We do. This is the housing   that's going to bring people here and keep people  here and keep them here with their families, keep   their wealth here, keep their philanthropy here.  When people move out of here that we lose their   philanthropy and we lost a lot of philanthropy.  Um, so I think this product will keep that here   and allow people to want to stay here. Um, so I  appreciate it, but if that could be part of it   just I know it's one maybe one more I think you  get more ideas from people that are actually in   that age group that are looking for that kind of  thing. So if that could be added I would that we   a good outreach of good work that we're doing here  with the county. Very good. Thank you. All right,   we have a motion. We have a second. Is there any  further discussion? All those in favor? I. All   those opposed? Motion carries. Thank you very  much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you   guys. And I'm sure we'll see you again. Yes.  Uh, self storage is right around the corner. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank  you, Daffany. Safe travels best. Up next,   briefing and discussion and introduction to  data centers. Data. Data. Data. Yes. Data.   Data. Potato. Potato. Yeah. All right.  I guess it's data. I call it data. Data.   Data. Data. Data. Data. Pata. Like the movie The  Goonies. Data. Data. Is it data or data? You can   drive. Is one singular and one plural? Maybe.  I don't think so. No. No. It's It's It's very  

good. What's the difference? Rednecks versus  refined people. They're crazy. They're not. My daughter, the chemical engineer, knows it.  She uses it all the time. See, you're going to   get the answer. I'm gonna get the answer. Morning  commissioners. Good morning to you. Yes. So um   as I'm sure you're aware there has been a lot of  talk both at a national, state and and local level   um regarding data centers and uh so it's a very  hot topic. One that's in flux. There's various   um state and federal legislation that's all been  considered and and so on and so forth. And um as   you I'm sure you recall um a couple months ago  you passed a deferral on data centers to allow   us some time to to research the the issue and and  come back and and talk about it with you all and   um if you wish uh then we could move forward with  looking at what kind of text amendments we would   want to put in place from at a local uh level to  protect uh the county um as we would wish uh from   a zoning perspective. So, uh, we've been working  for the past couple months on doing research and,   uh, Brenda is going to be walking through  a presentation to just bring us all up to   speed on terminology and and concepts and issues  that we're seeing, uh, at a state and and federal   level. And then, if you would so wish, we can take  whatever next steps you would like. So, with that,   I'll turn it over to Brenda. Good morning. Good  morning. Do I have one minute? We give you two. Okay. Well, let me just first start by saying  I am not a data center expert. You know,   we we put together information based on the  research that we've done at this point. But   if you have questions that I can't answer, I will  certainly look into it. So, I guess um the first  

thing to do is let's look at what are we actually  talking about here. Data centers. Um generally   the definitions are roughly the same. it's a  facility, a a building or a room that houses   um data, but what we're talking about is for our  purposes is going to be a building or a facility,   not not a room inside of another use. The  state has a definition of data centers. Um   it's a it basically matches what we already talked  about. that's housing the equipment uh for the   um data infrastructure. Same with the federal,  it's basically about the same. How many ways you   can say the same thing? So, the real question  is why do we care? And the the reason we care   is because we're trying to be prepared for  what might be coming down the pipe here.   Uh the anticipated continued rapid expansion of  data centers um continues to uh be a trend and   um provides opportunities and challenges at the  local levels. Uh the have the potential to take   advantage of tax revenue generation, potential  infrastructure improvements, and community   benefits. But it also comes um with requirements  that might need to be put in place to mitigate   impacts and ensure a long-term sustainability and  comm strengthen the community. So here's just a   couple pictures. Um one at the top corner is a  just a development plan of a data center. The   other larger one is um an example of a very large  data center. And then the two at the bottom are   what um you we probably won't be talking about  too much in the rest of the presentation, but   it's what the inside of a data center look like  looks like is racks and racks and racks of uh data  

storage equipment. So, we have a couple of terms  that I did want to just go over real quickly. They   aren't necessarily related to zoning requirements  that we would maybe look at putting in place.   um they're more related to um like ownership and  management, but I just wanted to go over them   quickly so that if you heard them, you'd know um  what they meant or how they fit in. So enterprise   um data center is basically uh it's owned and  operated the entire thing by one organization.   So everything inside belongs to one group. A  collocation facility is uh one where the fac   uh the owner of the facility leases or space  to um other organizations inside um and then   delivers infrastructure such as like the power  and cooling but the tenants themselves manage   their own operations. A managed data center is  very similar but the difference is that the owner   of the facility also manages the infrastructure  and hardware in addition to the other things. So   those are all basically terms about ownership  and management. Um not necessar like I said   it doesn't really matter to us so much because  it's going to look the same on the outside no   matter what the management structure is inside.  So the one thing that I found is there is no set   standard for um megawatt usage or size for  data centers in terms of what you might call   uh a certain data center. Um so we've grouped them  into three sort of general sizes that we found.   The first one on the small end is called an edge  data center and um obviously this is the smallest   and fits most easily into a community based on  its size. The midsize and and I'll look at these  

in more detail. I'm just giving you a sense  of the size. the midsize data centers. Again,   you can see there's a wide range of uh power  usage and um size requirements that fits into   this. Um and then the hypers scale is the ones  that are the giant very very large um facilities. So if we look at the edge data center first,  basically what we're looking at, it's called   edge because it's on the edge of where the network  users are. Like you and me and local businesses   were the the uh network users. So they put them  closer to the customers so that they can sort of   provide a bridge between your use the internet of  things and uh where the data is stored and managed   at a broader scale. Those would be in the midsize  and hypers scale facilities. So they're generally   loc they're decentralized and located near urban  areas. Um internet of things. I'll just bring   up you can see at the bottom these are all the  various uses that are now generating the increased   demand. um our smartwatches, um security cameras,  all of the computer needs that we have, printers,   everything that's wireless and generating  data, that's all in the internet of things. So the edge data center helps to provide  faster service to the customers who are   located near it. And this is just a example  of what an edge data center the, you know,   might look like. You can see it is a little  bit smaller scale than what you might picture,   but it can also be even smaller  yet. The subset of edge data   centers are the containers. You see this  is actually a small shipping container and   um they're designing these to be portable so  that they can be moved to where they're needed.

Then you have the midsize um which is pretty  much everything between edge and hypers scale.   It's designed to fill that gap. Um, it's popular  for certain types of uses and they're often found   in like corporate campus settings like  an industrial or employment campus. Um,   they might look like an office  building within that um setting. And here's uh some examples. And these are all  different sizes. They could be even smaller than   this. But this just in a corporate setting, this  is what it might look like. The one on the top   right is is the developing center. Then we have  hypers scale. These are the largest of the data   centers and these are the what you've see um very  prolific rapid development in Northern Virginia.   So the hypers scales are generally responding to  um the growth of things like 5G, AI, internet of   things deployments. Um and often they're so big  that the buildings themselves that do represent   the hypers scale facility are designed as a  campus facility themselves, not in a campus,   but they are the campus. Um they can be designed  to scale up if they need to be bigger. Um and they   because they're so big, they do have a little bit  more emphasis on um the ability to reduce energy   consumption, water use, and minimize other risk  that is only just trending in the midsize. So you   can see things like Amazon, Google, Meta, Apple,  IBM, Microsoft are all examples of the of hypers   scale users. And here's a picture in Northern  Virginia of one that um was under construction.   This this is five buildings just for this one  facility. You see it's sort of in a campus  

setting. Um I was going to wait till the end but  but you're transitioning a little bit anyway.   Um, do we have any place in Carol County like um,  Random House in Hamstead's probably 10 acres and   that's the high end of your midscale. Do we have  any place in Carol County where the hypers scale   buildings could even fit? I look at Amazon I think  was a million square feet in Cecil. That's a big   building. Yeah. Um do we have any place that they  could even happen? So that's that's part of what   we're looking to discuss, right? Is um from a  there are different aspects related to zoning   where we would want to allow them and then um  Brenda's going to admit it talk about water usage   and and power usage and so on. So I don't want  to say it's not possible. Anything's possible   with enough money, right? We we don't have too  many industrial or commercial areas that are   that big. Correct. You know, they could buy the  random house building maybe. Yes. Um, you know,   but that would be about it. Okay. I'm Yeah, I  don't I don't like the water, the power. I don't   like a whole lot about it, but I'm just wondering  how likely the bigger winds could even come here.   So part of our concern and we we brought this up  when we first discussed this with you all is that   our current zoning code doesn't address data  center specifically. So probably the closest   match would be warehouse. So if somebody came to  us um and said we want to put in a data center,   we would pigeon and hole it into a warehouse. So  and warehouses are allowed in c certain zoning   districts and and so on. So that's really  the the purpose of what we're trying to   do is figure out what is the desire as far as do  we want to change that um not for warehouses but  

for data centers specifically and and all that.  So under existing zoning code it would be very   limited locations where this could be done. Um  but we just want to make sure that we're we're   following what you all want. Thanks. Sorry.  And these do have different requirements that   warehouses wouldn't have. Oh yeah. Now this  particular facility just point of interest is   um when at full buildout will be 300 megawws 130  acres and 2.3 million square feet of building   area. So some interesting facts um I'm not going  to go through all them but uh Virginia is actually   home to 35% of all the hyperscale data centers  worldwide. So that's you can see it's it's local So, community benefits, there are community  benefits to developing data centers,   and this is why a lot of um a lot of  communities are considering what they want   uh to be able to do with them. They can generate  tax revenue. There are construction jobs during   development. Um and they can result in high-paying  jobs in IT, security, and facility maintenance.   They can be used as an opportunity to spur  infrastructure investment and development   uh particularly in um water and power and um  technology and then they can also attract other   technology related businesses. On the flip  side, there are also community concerns that   um arise. For example, the two biggest would be  their power usage and their water usage. Uh you   either have water or you don't. So, um, that  that's kind of a very vital issue that has to   be addressed. And then, of course, we already know  that we've got power concerns, um, that would need   to be addressed because there's such heavy power  users. But then, there's other things such as,  

um, air pollution, noise, aesthetics, um, you  know, that all communities have raised and,   um, would possibly need to be addressed  or mitigated. At the state level,   there's not a whole lot of um requirements for  data centers just yet. Uh it is required to   uh um get a CPCN. No, it's not. Never  mind. Um it's required to get an air   quality permit from MDE and also would need a  water appropriation permit from MDE if it's not   on public water. and that they're high water  usage is gen primarily for cooling purposes. There's a lot of um bills that were introduced  this year regarding data centers in the Maryland   General Assembly. None of these passed.  Um someone looks a little familiar there,   but they none of these passed. You see  that at the bottom, Roberta? Oh, yes. I recognize that. forgot that was there. There was another bill passed though that um  wasn't specific to data centers. It was called   um HP 1532 which was is known as utility  relief act um and that did include some   requirements for data centers. It lowers the  threshold for what's considered a large load   from I think a 100 megawatts of use to 25  megawatts of use. Um requires them to pay   their own grid enhancements. They have to  register with the Maryland Public Service   Commission. And then there's also um in the  bill it's only they voluntarily bring their  

own energy. But I I imagine there'll be more  bills introduced in coming years. So, we did   take a look at some of the what other Maryland  counties are doing. When I put this together,   there were only five counties that either had  something in place or in progress and uh only   three that had a deferral or moratory in place  at that time. I think Harford is also considering   one at this time. Just as of yesterday, it was  introduced and and Frederick County is in the   midst of a major ballot referendum due to data  centers. So, that's worth mentioning, right? Good point. Good point. So, there are a number of  local requirements that could be considered. Um,   when we looked around what other places are doing,  um, you can see there's zoning requirements,   there's studies that can be required, site  development requirements, and even agreements   that can be put in place. And I'll I'll look at  each of these. So for um under zoning uh you have   uh zoning districts where you can specify what  data which where data centers would be allowed   and whether they'd be principal conditional  use or prohibited. Uh you can require specific   studies in the zoning in order to identify  what the impacts are and um how these impacts   might need to be mitigated. And you can include  specific site development requires requirements   um to implement those plans. If it's a conditional  use, um, should be noted that the use would have   to go to the board of zoning appeals first in  order to be approved by them. Board of zoning   appeals could put additional requirements in place  that aren't listed in zoning. And then after that   approval and whatever conditions are put on  it, it would a development plan could then be   submitted for uh review and consideration  by the planning and zoning commission.

An overlay zone is another type of zoning  district that could be considered. And what   an overlay zone does is it kind of you map an  area. Um so if you took an an underlying use,   you would map areas within say a certain  industrial zone. Um where you where this   would be allowed and then so it wouldn't  be allowed anywhere in that district,   only where you put this on the  map. and then this could impose   additional requirements and restrictions  on top of what's in the underlying zone. There also um studies that are often required  for the data center developers. Um you can see   water energy and noise are common studies  that are um required for water. Of course,   again, one of the biggest things they need to  evaluate, they would require them to evaluate   their water needs and the impact and if there's  water available and um how they would propose   to provide that water. You could potentially  even require them to bring their own water.   Um and this plan could require them to uh  re like recycle or reuse the water to help   um reduce use of the local water supply or  groundwater. Energy manage management study   or plan is another one that's often are required  and it identifiies energy needs and how they'd   be managed or mitigated. Again um you also can  potentially require them to bring their own power.   That's pretty common. Um such as um putting  solar uh powering their facility with solar.   Some of the larger facilities also look at small  modular reactors which is a small nuclear use   um to power the large scale like hypers  scale facilities. And then noise studies  

um are another type that's commonly imposed and  it identifies your base level baseline levels of   noise and mitigation measures and to uh address  that for people who are nearby. And then you   have your site development requirements. So you're  familiar with these bulk requirements, setbacks,   height limitations, screening, etc. You can also  have design standards that you put in place in   um your zoning and development code. They could  be architectural, landscaping, lighting, um other   types of, you know, of standards like this to  help mitigate um the irrelevant impacts. And   then the last type of thing that we find pretty  commonly are agreements that are put in place.   There's one called a community benefit agreement,  which um is used in Maryland, but I I didn't see   it specific necessarily to data centers yet, but  but can be. And this is an agreement or a contract   that's negotiated between a community group and  the developer. generally the um local government   isn't a party to it but could be. So then we we'd  require the developer through this contract that   every that both sides uh sign to provide specific  amenities and mitigate a lot of the impacts. And then of course you're also very  familiar with the development rights   and respon responsibilities agreement. And  in in this particular type of agreement,   of course, the local government does enter into  an agreement with the developer to um establish   additional conditions and requirements to  mitigate impacts or um generate benefits.

So, I'm going to turn it over to Chris to kind  of get a sense from you what direction you might   want to go. So hopefully that provides a good  background as far as what we're talking about,   the scope of what we're talking about and it is  a very complex issue and and obviously a lot of   um communities are are raising concerns, but there  are some benefits that that should be considered.   Um so at this point we're we're basically looking  for your thoughts and what direction you'd like   us to take. Um there are some as Brenda mentioned  size considerations. So we could certainly talk   about do we want to treat edge um uh data centers  differently than um than the midsize and hypers   scale. We could come up with three different  options, two different options, those sorts of   things and all the associated bulk requirements  and and so on related to both. Um so really it's   we're we're we're looking for your feedback as far  as what direction you would like us to take. We   could certainly um put together a work session and  discuss this in more detail with you all if you   wanted or we could start working with um planning  commission and obviously doing more research and   and also seeing what other jurisdictions at the  federal and state level and come up with kind   of the best practices and and recommendations  to you all um and work through the planning   commission with some some uh actual text amendment  suggestions. So So first of all, yeah, go ahead.   First of all, Chris, I just want to say thank you  to to you and Brendan, to everybody for putting   this presentation together. I mean, I know it's a  lot of research and a lot of this is is, you know,   ever evolving is every year is, you know, yields  new uh technology uh uh parameters and and and new   u u uh I guess you would call them developments  within AI and data centers and everything they're   involved in. So, for me, and I'm I'm certainly not  not going to uh to speak for any of my colleagues.  

I mean I while I appreciate all the the research  and the the the information that you've provided   to us I mean for me um I guess for me it really  does come down to a question of uh community and   energy right so uh and if you don't have the  answer to this particular question today that   that's quite okay um so what size determines  whether on-site power generation or drawing   from the grid is appropriate for a data center  right and the reason why I ask that is obviously   because we're dealing with MPP. And so if Virginia  needs energy from Pennsylvania and they need our   county to convey that energy to Virginia, who  might we end up drawing our energy from and who   are we going to infringe upon to get it, right?  So I think with data centers you know by their   nature it isn't just a question of how it affects  the places in which they are constructed but how   do they affect the places that uh surround them  because those places places invariably are going   to have to in some way shape or form contribute to  a data center and then so for us personally um you   know how do they demonstrate a fittingness within  the community as it exists as we you know went   through that whole uh exercise at solar and we're  continuing to to fight solar and the transmission   lines. Now, you know, are these in keeping with  the nature and the character of Carol County? And   personally, I would argue that they're not. Um  again my my colleagues may disagree with me and   and maybe you know suggest restrictions or or a  way to to you know maybe advance some middle path   but for me I I just don't see how uh data centers  especially the hypers scale or even the midsize   um uh for that matter um you know would  demonstrate a fittingness to the the the   fabric of our county. So that's just at least  where I'm coming from. and and al along with that   you talked to energy and and a um I don't think we  need a work session. I think you guys need to get  

from more more information and to go through the  process. But my concern is also water. I know like   um we we were going to build for a marijuana  place. They recycled the water could reuse it. So,   their needs weren't much once they got going and  they didn't put much into the sanitary sewer. Is   that the case here? Or does it evaporate? Does  it can they reclaim it? I I I think as well as   energy, you need to find out how much water will  they need and and and Virginia, there's plenty of   data. Yeah. Or data, whatever. But um you know and  and how much goes into the sanitary sewer because   I think that's important because my inclination is  similar to yours. I don't know if we want them but   but we need to know the facts of of what they do  and and would and how can we tax them? Can we get   income that offsets some of the issues? So that's  a good question. Yeah, I I I appreciate that. Um   yeah, aside from from what you're going to hear  from us individually up here, I'm not really sure   I have much of a direction for you to go at this  point in terms of a work session or sending this   to the planning and zoning commission. I mean, we  did put a 12-month moratorum for lack of a better   term for on these and I feel like we do have time.  Um we are discussing this issue right now. It's   the right thing to do. uh counties throughout the  Mid-Atlantic right next door in fact in Frederick   County are struggling with this issue because they  didn't foresee the problems. They didn't prepare   perhaps and I think in a lot of cases they just  didn't care. Um you know they look at the revenue   side of this and incidentally all these counties  that are going down this route they're the same   counties that have deficits every single year.  this has not solved their spending problems.   That's not hasn't given more money to schools and  parks and recreation, all the things that people  

in this county care about. So, that's that's an  irony that's not that that shouldn't be ignored.   Um, but this is certainly something that we should  definitely be looking at and maybe there's a right   way to do this at some point. Um, self-sufficiency  in terms of energy, water, and all those things.   Uh yes, they are putting an enormous strain on  energy grids and at the same time it has been   proven and the Maryland Office of People's Council  and a lot of other entities and organizations   around the state, the these data centers are  raising people's electric and water bills. I mean,   that's just the facts of the matter.  So, I'm very glad we're taking a look   at this. Uh people in Carol County deserve  this. We're not saying we don't want them,   but there if there's a right way to do it, then  that's that's where we need to be going. Um, but,   uh, this is what this is what people, especially  in rural counties like ourselves, this is what   this is what people expect out of us. And what  we're seeing throughout the state and Northern   Virginia, it's a real mess. um in Frederick County  right now, they're going through an entire ballot   referendum process where they're going to vote on  these things because a couple of them are going   in and there really was very little um thought  given to any of these things that that that you   and Brenda just just discussed with us. And that's  really unforgivable. That should not be happening.   That is not good. That is not good policy. That  is not good executive legislative policy. And   that's what we that's what we exercise here. And  unfortunately in Frederick County in particular,   uh, elected officials have tried to thwart that  entire process of the people having their say   over what happens here. That's not happening  here in Carol County. We're going to take a   time out to if we're going to do this, we're  going to do it right. And there's obviously   a lot to learn. And there's things changing  all the time. I mean, the technology and the   uh the scope of these things and how they're  operating, they're changing constantly. And I  

think somebody mentioned at a planning and zoning  commission meeting a few months back. I think one   of the planning and zoning commission members  even mentioned, you know, 20 30 years from now,   who knows if data centers are even going to exist  anymore. There will be some better way of doing   things because that's what that's what we do here.  You know, that's what we do and that that's that's   American ingenuity, right? So, I appreciate all  the work you put into it. I personally, aside   from some of the comments you'll hear from us,  I I don't think I really have a a um a direction   anything specific for you to tell you now. Only  that thank you for your work on this and clearly   you and your staff understand that this is a very  important issue and I appreciate it. Yes, if I may   for just a second, all the things that you raised  are are exactly my concerns as well. And um from a   um zoning code perspective, um I'm I'm happy that  the commissioners put in place the deferral that   gave us time to look at these because if a and  and we have not been contacted by any I don't want   people to assume that we're we're fighting someone  coming or anything like that, right? We have   we have not been approached. However, if someone  were to approach the county, we would be obligated   to start looking at how do we treat them in the  zoning code and we don't have anything right now.   So, we would have to treat them as a warehouse  and start processing them as a warehouse and   so on. So, this deferral is giving us some time  to maybe we can't solve everything. But I think   um my opinion would be to put some basic guard  rails in place um to protect us that if something   were to come in, we at least have those and and  maybe the finer details are worked out as the   state passes more regulations, the feds pass more  regulations and so on. But my recommendation would   be that we get some basic guardrails in place  so we're not defaulting to a basic warehouse   um if one were to be proposed. Right. Well, that's  that's sound that's sound advice. Um, I don't know   what that would look like, but if if that's  something the other commissioners are willing  

to go toward, that sounds completely reasonable to  me. I greatly appreciate you and staff doing all   the uh hard work on this. And obviously, I think  right now I agree with all of you. I don't see a   point that we need to have another uh work session  on this at this moment. Um, greatly appreciate all   of you up here uh taking up this with me that we  deferred this for a year because this we've got to   get ahead of this, not behind it. That's I think  you know Commissioner Garren said it best. Look   what's going on in Frederick. I mean that's that's  a huge problem. We don't want it to end up on a   ballot referendum. We want to do what we need to  do. Um and I think right now the best thing is to   figure out how do we approach this? And you know  to Mr. Hines's point about it being a warehouse.   We know it's not a warehouse. It just falls in  that category currently. So I think I think we're   doing the right I know we're doing the right  thing. But I really appreciate all of us taking   the time and effort and energy because obviously  we do have limited water. it is affecting people's   electric bills and I think we're doing this in  the most respectful way possible. Um I do think   we need to come up with some language in the  future. Doesn't need to be right now but before   we run out of uh time unless we're to extend this  deferral. I think we do need to get something in   place because the last thing we want to do and  luckily it hasn't happened it won't happen is   have somebody come in and be able to make it as a  warehouse. So, I greatly appreciate all the work.   Last but not least, so I appreciate again that  you were proactive on this because it's going to   take a long time to get involved. I I cannot see  how you can do this alone. And when I say alone,   this is a regional issue and I I had thought  some of these bills had maybe passed. Um, we almost need to work with someone else that's  either doing it. You can't do this alone. I mean,   it's all new frontier, you know. So, and I want  to say I think that we are the policy makers,   the elected officials should be helping you. It  should not be punted to the planning commission at  

this point. We're the policy makers on policy, but  getting the information and and working with other   counties or even talking to it, the pros and cons  in Lowden County, what guardrails can we put up   um either to to discourage it, to make sure it's  mediated, if it would would present itself, but   what are all the options? I I don't know about the  environmental issues. No one really talks about   them. We know about the energy use and all I can  tell you is whether we put them or someone else   puts them right now the energy we're going to pay  for because it's so messed up how this is being   determined. Lowden County is taking our they're  eating our lunch with power. They're getting our   my daughter lives in Lowden County. Their electric  bill is no complaint like ours. I don't know how   they do it but we're paying the price somehow for  other thing. Maybe it's other things but they're   not their electric bills are not high in Lon  County. So that's a gripe of mine. Not not that   I want them to pay more electric bills, but you  know, we're footing the bill for this for this all   this stuff for many other reasons. And now we're  going to be paying it for the the um transmission   line as well, which isn't even starting to hit  hit people's electric line electric bills yet,   but it will because all the stuff that the power  companies are doing with the transmission line is   all going into distribution rates for people in  the state of Maryland, even if we don't benefit   at all. And it's wrong and it needs to change.  That's why I keep putting that out there that   that is affecting our rates of how they're trying  to put this power line in and they shouldn't have   gone this route. But I would suggest if there's  opportunities for you to work in as a as a group,   I don't know if we need even I think our economic  development people should be involved in this one   way or another. Um to do some homework on it  and then the environmental people should be   involved with it. How does it affect water? I  hear that but like what does that mean in Ldon   County? I read their paper and I go down  there all the time. All they talk about,   you talk about benefits financially, the money  that's coming in from these data centers is it's   they're drunk off of it. Even their jail looks  like the Taja Mahal. It because they can't find  

enough to spend the money on. I'm not saying  you do it for that reason. I'm just telling you   uh they overlook a lot and they they've put them  they started along the Dallas throughway which is   a very good place to put them. It's a highway  big highway and there data centers then there   communities. However, you know what is the impact  on water? I keep hearing that, you know, obviously   they've got hund they've got hundreds of them.  I think 600 or something. There's a ton of them.   Hundreds. Um, but they somewhat they have many  of them separated, you know, in certain areas.   I don't know if they're hooked to public water.  Do they use other type of I don't know how they   do it because they obviously have water issues  as well. So, I'd like to understand the water   piece of it because here we can't even have wet  ponds because of brown trout, but they're they've   got all these data centers somehow affecting the  water and it doesn't seem to be word about it. So   I'd like to understand that environmental impact  um the water the recycling plan and you mentioned   that on the hypers scale ones that there is more  emphasis on reducing energy consumption water use   and minimizing the risk of outages I would  hope that after these hypers scale big ones   um figure this stuff out that it would go down to  the smaller ones and they'd you know what things   could we mandate what could we make them do for  small ones because I'm not asking them to come   but right now as you said a warehouse what if  random house wasn't here anymore they said oh   want to put a data center in what can you just  exclude and say you can't have that use or not   you know and there there are questions but I'm not  asking you to go alone at this I mean if there's a   way to hook up with Frederick County uh people in  Lowden County that have been there lessons learned   is there some group out there because it's a whole  new frontier and it's big and I think that we as   the commissioners should be in the policy seat of  it and then if we ever decide we want to move in   that direction or get the pressure to move in that  ction, we'd be prepared and we'd even have what   would it look like if you tax it? I don't know how  they tax it there. All I know is that I think it's   either a third or a half of their county budget  is paid for by data centers. I'm not suggesting  

it. Teachers are very well paid. people tend to  not I think they've getting overload because I   know Prince um Prince William County they had a  a upscale neighborhood of million-doll millions   of dollars of houses and the developer just sold  the property to the data center for like 10 times   more than he would have ever gotten on all the  profits for all those houses. That's crazy. It's   it's it's it's almost a new frontier. I mean or  something we've got to deal with. So I would just   suggest that you know keep moving forward with  this. I will be happily help be involved with   it. I think the policy part of it is important  of whether we put guardrails in place in case   they want to come. But we need we need to do our  homework on it. You know what is the water issue?   What and going to somewhere where they're doing  it. Is it an issue? What are they doing about   it? Um I think they all should be providing their  own electricity. I know uh at the federal level I   think uh FK is correct me if I'm wrong. I think  FK is um looking at making certain users provide   their own energy. Um right now they're getting  it the cheapest place they can which is off the   grid and making everyone else pay for this  stuff as well. But I know down at Northward   Grman they actually have small nuclear reactors  that they used to use on submarines years ago or   still use and they're offering them now for data  centers. But until they're forced to use them um   so maybe that has to come from the feds but they  should be providing their own energy. they should   not be sucking down energy from Pennsylvania  coming through Carol County. But right now,   that is what's happening and it's it's a reality  and we whether we do it or not is it's going to   keep it's going to keep moving forward unless we  uh push push for an alternative. So, you know,   the being proactive, can we simply exclude a use?  You know, if one of our big warehouse things came,   could we say no? I don't even in the future, could  we say no? Um and then what would that look like?   And again, what are the environmental benefits?  What are the um and and we should put in place   you must provide your own energy. If if we even  were going to think about it, you'd have that in  

place as a as a discouragement. You know what I'm  saying? If you have to if you have to offer it,   you would have the discouragement there to say  yes, you had have to provide your own energy.   This would be the tax. And if we don't want it,  you would discourage it by those types of things   and and and maybe size. But I think ignoring it  is not not ignoring it, but not dealing with it   is not helpful because it's going to be  in front of us and then we're going to   be in a crisis. So your your proactiveness  is appreciated and it is it is here and um everybody loves AI. I don't think this is going  away once people get businesses and all. I mean   the chamber the other day was saying they're  having classes about it. It is a useful tool   and unfortunately this is the way it's powered.  I don't understand at all. Uh that demand is not   going to go away. So we've got to realize that and  again it could be all around us but then what does   it mean if it's it presents itself here. So I be  happy to um help in any way but I think if you   could these other counties are dealing with it as  well. probably their economies of scale of brain   power, you know, working with them if there's some  consortium or but I would also again talk to folks   in in Lowden and say what how did you handle this  stuff coming? What would you do different? What if   you didn't want it? They they probably know some  of those things that that we don't know. And then   and that's our normal course of action when we're  we're dealing with something like this. We work   with Mako. We work with the various counties. We  talk to our cohorts and in other jurisdictions   and so on. that that's just normal process. It's  all new to them, too. I mean, you know what I'm   saying? It's and it's a you have your regular job  to do. This is a whole big issue that could take a   lot of staff time and we're not that huge to have  Brenda for it's it's bigger than one per you know   what I'm saying. It's it's it is a bigger than  just one person. That's my point. This is not just   I'm not putting this pressure on one or two people  or the department because it's it's large. But   I do think the policy part and and these issues  should come back to this board and then and then  

you know once we decide whether to totally try to  not have any or have small ones or allow for it   or discourage it or whatever at least that policy  decision is coming from the elected body who is   elected to make those decisions then we would give  those recommendations to the board of the planning   commission because they don't know what to do  either. So maybe maybe after we do a little more   research and outreach to um um you know counties  like Lowden and other places maybe there are a few   others around the the country you know as you  said what they've done right what would they   do again maybe Frederick County what are they  doing etc that we um flesh out some possible   courses of action um some things to think about  and then um um have um a in-depth conversation   with the board at that point, more stuff for you  to chew on and then you can give more specific   direction of where you want to go policy-wise to  the commission. We want them to start the process   but not go to the planning commission, come back  to us and then see I hate to see us do it in a   panic because somebody's asked for one, right?  So, I think we need to do it now. Um, Mr. Burke,   if if we wanted to A year sounds like a long time,  but it ain't. If we wanted to extend a deferral,   are we okay doing that? It's uh it was in place  in in February. So So if next February or whatever   January we said we want to extend it, they're  still working on it. We can. Yes. As long as you   have legitimate reason to extend it and you you  will if they're still working on it. So Okay. And   then also understanding that some of the pictures  you showed showed them like out outside of areas   that didn't seem that they're connect I know in  Len County they have them both close and far to   um I guess growth areas. Well well water and  sewer because you certainly would not I would   not want them to be tapping into water and sewer  necessarily because we don't then we'd have to  

provide it. You know what are they doing about  that? Uh and environmentally you're the storm   water guy. My gosh how much storm water for  a facility that big? A lot. a lot and and but   that's a technical that's a technical but the  reason that I ask is because you know um Lowden   County in the Midwest they got tons of land it's  flat they don't have to worry about wetlands and   all that kind of stuff but in Virginia they sort  of still do because they're similar to us or not   just south of us so they similarly positioned  as we are not sure how they're dealing with all   those things and I don't want to become Lowden  County I'm just telling you they're doing it   because they're getting a lot of benefit from it  and their citizens I think they're on hold now   like we've have enough but They they've made uh  it's a very it's a one of the wealthiest counties   in the country and and it has been but it is  because and it's a lot of I bet you they have   one person that's just dedicated to answering  all these questions because I am sure we are   not the only county. No, but all these land so  come back to us. I mean I I think and we but   Commissioner Garren you wanted to Yeah. Just so  for the purpose of moving things forward I think   what we're asking and I don't know if we need a  motion or not but we're asking for Mr. Hind to do   is formulate some some of that basic quote unquote  guardrail language. Um, and when you've got it,   come back and Yes. We'll put on the agenda and  and and consider it appropriately. Yeah. Thank   you very much. Thank you very much. Thanks for all  the work. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. You   can say someday I remember when I worked on that  data center stuff. Now, now it's in space. By then   I might not have a good memory. So, we appreciate  all you guys are doing. I've thanked you once   today. So, we need to wait 24 hours. I'll do it  again. Thank you both very much. Thank you. So,   next we'll move into public comment. Robera,  do we have anybody here for public comment? No,   sir. All right. Thank you very much. Chris, do we  have anybody on the line for public comment? Yes,   sir. We have one caller left. Uh caller, if  you could use star six to unmute, you'll have  

three minutes. Please identify yourself and  tell us where you're calling from. Thank you. Miss Adelide. Yes. Yes. Good morning. Can you  hear me? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Good morning,   commissioners. I did get my timer on. You're  always worth the wait. Katherine Adelaide,   one of nine members of the Carol County Republican  Central Committee. And I did want to thank you   uh for the opportunity to speak to you  as always and for also remembering the   National Day of Prayer. Our country  needs prayer and we also need action.   Um, prayer is a starting point, but we  need to take the next steps and do action,   which I know these commissioners both  pray and act. So, I appreciate that. Okay,   big news. Our big news for Carol County Republican  Central Committee is the MDGOP spring convention,   which begins tomorrow, runs through Saturday at  Rocky Gap Resort in beautiful Alageney County. So,   pray for that event. I did want to thank the  central committee again for purchasing a full   page ad for the Maryland Right to Life Convention.  That's my big news of the day because one week   from Saturday, Saturday May 16th um will be the  car the Maryland right to life uh convention in   beautiful Gambles. There'll be an opening prayer  breakfast from 8:00 to 9:00. The convention runs   from 9:00 to 5:30 with food trucks for a picnic  lunch and a closing cookout with live music. The   um the theme is a rising tide for life. It's a  family-friendly event. Um there no be no victim   images and it's to educate and encourage the next  generation of prolifers. Um you can go to maryland   righttolifeconvention.com if you haven't purchased  the ticket. But if you can't make it out, I'm   really encouraging you to consider purchasing a  oneline tribute for $25. Um it can be a memorial.   Uh for example, Carol County right to life,  we remembered all the pre-born babies lost to  

abortion. And we also funded a full page ad. I did  one for my sister I lost tragically two years ago.   Um Carol County uh yeah Carol County right to life  did a memorial and uh and actually a a candidate   who's running her son is graduating on that day.  So she's going to actually do a tribute to her son   who is pro-life. So get creative but you know if  you can't make it it's just a small wonderful way   to support the front line of remaining pro-life at  least in Carol County and hopefully pushing into   Maryland as well. And then finally, um I did want  to wish everybody a happy Mother's Day. Obviously,   thank your mother for having you. And I especially  wanted to really just honor the mothers of the   pre-born children. Um they are mothers from the  moment of conception and we need to support them.   I have a daughter-in-law who's 18 who is a  pre-born mother and I'll be sending her a   wonderful Mother's Day card. So, wishing everybody  a wonderful weekend and happy Mother's Day. Thank you very much, Chris. We have  anybody else on Okay, that's all I have,   sir. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right,  we'll move into administrative session open. Does   anybody have anything for admin open today?  I do. I hope I wrote this right. If I didn't,   um it was brought to my attention that our  deferrals on the other agenda items are coming   up in June. So, we needed to extend them so these  guys have time for their work. Um and they haven't   done the storage facilities yet. So, I don't  know all what's open and what we've done. So,   I want to make it broad. So, I just want to add to  uh my motion is to add um current deferrals that   are in place to the agenda for next week for  possible extension to accommodate the current   anticipated timeline for completion of tasks  by our consultants uh through the planning   and zoning commission and board of commissioners  approval process and they will give us that's it.   I give you two thumb two thumbs up on that motion.  Well done. Second. Okay. Second. All right. So,  

we have a motion and a second to add deferrals  or the rem outstanding deferrals to the agenda   for next week. Is there any discussion? All those  in favor? I. All those opposed? Motion carries.   And one more. I just came up with this later. I'm  allowed to have more. No, but this is goes with it   because I I talked about I want to make officially  a motion. We talked about the effect on the house   bill and I don't remember the number that about um  the building um approval process. I don't know if   there's regulations written, but I just would like  Chris to give us an update on that. He's going to,   but just I just want to make an official motion  to say that we want to do this. The effect of   the House bill, whatever number it is on the  plan approval process and the effective date   and to make sure that whatever we're doing here,  if we know much about it, will be considered. I   read the bill will be considered as we're moving  through this um process. So, you're you're just   asking for I think so update on House Bill. Yes.  update on House Bill, whatever the number is about   the plan approval process and the effective date  and some details. Right. We're not 100% sure,   but we think the one that you may be referring  to did not pass. Uh the one I mentioned,   the 30 days is the vesting that changes from  the late to early vesting. Whatever whatever   we'll check it out. That's why I left it. Whatever  impact would be on this on any of these processes,   one or two bills. It's a concern because um  because life will change in OC whatever whichever   one is the deal. Life will change on October 1st.  That's what we need to figure out what and if they   have any regulations. So that that's my motion  just to get updated on that and staff is planning   to do that. Okay. I I can Okay, I can second that.  I just you're what you're asking for is a briefing   on any relevant recently passed legislation that  affects our Okay, I can I can I can second that.   It affects our our planning process. Sure. Okay.  All right, fair enough. We have a motion. We have   a second. Any further discussion? All those in  favor? I. All those opposed? Motion carries. All  

right. Anybody else have anything else for admin  open? Yes. Um, and uh, I just want to note that   speaking of deferrals, yesterday at 4:39 p.m. all  of us got an email that the Carol Highlands self   storage building um, and I'll skim um, all they've  received all technical approvals for the proposed   facility. Under normal circumstances, they would  be on the June Planning and Zoning Commission,   but because of our deferral, that cannot be  scheduled. And uh my concern is here we've got   a project that has met every requirement we have.  He's exceeded most um building height setbacks,   etc., etc., and we are now delaying um them being  able to start it. And I I if I may um suggest that   would be part of your conversation maybe next week  because the two deferrals that need to be extended   or not um um are the uh retirement villages and  homes and the self storage the um data centers   of course that really doesn't count for these  purposes and um self uh wait no self clustering   cluster clustering But there's nothing in there's  nothing in the queue right now for that. But we   should clustering. It's the clustering in the  retirement homes that need to be um extended or   not. Self storage has already been extended.  So, excuse me. So, yes, that's a different   conversation. That's why I just said whatever  needs to be extended because I can't remember. So,   the two need to be extended. That will be covered  by your motion, commissioner. But, uh the self   storage, this one would not be correct. So, I I  wanted to mention and uh um and make sure all five  

commissioners and anyone listening know that we're  we're now delaying that project and they've met   every they've done everything we ask, everything  the community asked. Okay. Thank you very much,   Commissioner. Um so, I guess we'll be talking  about that next week and then um we could add   that to the agenda. That that is not I mean so  do that that is that would I would say that would   not be part of the of commissioner Krebs's right  because so is that is it a right now the storage   facility deferral is for how long is it I think  we did it for another six months okay all right   so it's still in place yes thank you all right  does anybody else have anything for admin open   can I just ask clarity do we want to add the this  um whether you want to continue the self- storage   deferral for this particular property or not to  the agenda next week as an agenda item. I think I   think I think given the conversation on deferrals  we should I mean given the fact that they're at   that that point and just the general conversation  I think we should at least have some discussion   about it. So I would I'm going to I didn't want  to interrupt you. He looked like you wanted No,   I wanted to say we we still have a consultant  that's been paid to look at this stuff. So yeah,   I'm going to what I'm what I'm going to  recommend is two separate agenda items. Um,   one on the deferral extensions that are looming  in front of you. Those are the retirement homes,   villages and the clustering and then a separate  item on this um self self storage um issue because   that deferral has been extended. And so this this  question is in light of a project now meeting all   the criteria to going to go to planning commission  and in fact now truly being deferred because of  

the deferral. Do you want to make any changes?  That's really the question. Does that make sense   to Yeah. And what I'm going to say I mean the the  folks are doing that um to push the envelope. We   made a decision to extend the deferral. They knew  that. They knew there we we've moved them forward   in good faith to get to this point. I would have  preferred to say don't move to this point. Stop   back then and we wouldn't have moved to this  point. But we gave them the grace to do that.   The storage facility folks and the retirement.  They knew clearly that where we were heading   I believe to do was right just like we're doing  with public, you know, MP. We're going to fight   it technically. We're probably going to not win if  we don't do something different. But we're going   to continue. But we have control of this. So right  now we we've gone through this. We just said we're   going to extend it until the consultant comes back  with some recommendations and I think we should   stick to that because nothing has changed.  There's no new information that has come up   um to the facility guy. He's act he made  a decision to continue to move forward and   that's fine. But um we have two others that are  now moving forward with they be included as well.   There's two more that have and we're going  to probably have five more. We're going to   have them all over the place because it's the only  place in the world that lets you do it like this.   But we have a consultant in place to to recommend  make recommendations about next to neighborhoods   and I think we should stick with that because  it's already we've already done it and there's   nothing that's changed that this developer didn't  know when we put the deferral extended it put in   place. I I I don't I don't I don't I don't know  if adding it as a separate agenda item. I don't   agree with that concept, but a commissioner has  a a wide breath of ability to raise that issue   during that deferral discussion like you just did  and we can certainly have a discussion about it,   but I mean we do have a deferral in place, but  the commissioner can vote to add anything to an   agenda as well. So, well, I'm just recommending  it be a separate item because that deferral  

is that deferral has already been extended. I  understand that. It's not a question of of Yeah,   I think it's not a question of a good point.  It's a different issue and and I would argue   that what's changed is they've completed  everything. And and as far as the other two,   they're a year or so away. If we can't resolve  this issue in a year or so, we ought to give up.   It's they're they're not factors in this  one. And that's what I wanted to mention   today. And if if somebody else is interested in  us discussing it in open session, I'd love it. But   um if nobody else is, then I don't know if it's a  it's a reason to. So well, I think the challenge   is they're not in the same place. You have two  that are just starting out. This one's farther   along. So for me personally, I'd rather have some  conversation about Yeah. I'm I'm defending I mean,   we have we have a a sort of loose set of rules.  Commissioner Krebs made a good comment. It's not   part of her motion. And I understand that. Yeah.  We we sort of have a loose set of rules in that   regards time. But you have every right you have  every right to raise that issue. And so if that's   what that's why I didn't wear a tie today. And you  know what? And you look great. You look great. So   mark that one down on the calendar as well. It  almost was three of us. So for the sake of time,   I guess what do we I mean and the question becomes  also timewise. If this is going to come back up,   we need to make sure it's on the agenda and  we'll have to get everybody to come in here and   say their peace. But keep in mind, it's setting a  precedent. If we do it for the storage facility,   you've now set a precedent for the retirement  villages because they're moving along. We in good   faith let them move along all the projects and at  their own risk. And I think they're I don't know,   but we're basically if we do it  for that and have that discussion,   then next week it's going to be for the retirement  villages. And then we might as well have not had   the consultant because that's all that's left.  I mean, that's what's left in to to be done. So,  

it's sort of it's sort of an exercise we're  doing for no real meaning. Commissioner,   I'm I'm I'm going to respectfully disagree with  that. Um, you know, what we're talking about, I   guess what my colleagues are talking about here is  a potential exemption for that storage facility,   but I wouldn't say that that hiring a consultant  has been for not. I mean the presentation we   received today was phenomenal. I mean there plenty  of places we can strengthen our code and improve   some things and unanimously we all said yeah let's  let's look at some of those potential changes um   and and uh by virtue of uh the motions you made a  couple of minutes ago u you know it was unanimous   to to put the the discussion on the deferrals on  the agenda again. So I you know I certainly would   support having a discussion about a specific topic  about potential exemption for them as well. Uh,   and who knows, maybe all five of us agree with it  or disagree with it. Or maybe the vote is is is u,   you know, divided, but I certainly think we should  uh give uh Commissioner uh Garin, I'm sorry,   Commissioner Gordon and Commissioner Kyer the  the grace of having something on the agenda,   too. And and and what the procedure would be,  you know, like you say, we're uh kind of in China   uncharted territory with stuff. So, you know,  what what can we do and what's the procedure and   is there another hearing? You know, what what's  the procedure? So, yeah, I' I'd love to see us   discuss it. Could we agree to put it on not next  week's agenda, but the week after to give Mr. Hine   a chance to address some of our concerns because  when we did have that deferral vote, I think there   were several of us who did have concerns about the  endgame on this. So, if we can give him at least   two weeks commit, Mr. two weeks before it's  on the agenda. Is that it's up to either of   you? I don't know what else we hear. They've done  everything and he's told us that. Well, I mean I   and I want to hear from Mr. Hine, too, uh on that.  I just do. I mean, um, I I think he's prepared to  

talk about the other request that Commissioner  Krebs had, which is the the timeline and how the   new legislation will affect the timeline for um  the all of these issues in in front of you. Um,   it does make it much more compressed. Um, I hope  you're right, it's six months. I hope I'm wrong   that it's 30 days. Um because um if if I'm right  uh and something comes in on October 1st, it has   to be up or down. On October 30, it's actually  35 days, which is really weird. Um but anyway,   um so six months gives us a whole lot more time um  if you're right, but even then is super compressed   for sort of for that initial yes, you you are  vested or not vested conversation. So um um but   he's he is prepared to have that conversation  and I think that does have an impact on all   of these conversations. So, you're saying he he  can be ready next week for that particular aspect   of the conversation, and I don't I'm not 100%  sure that's where Commissioner Garin was going,   but if I was understanding, it was just strictly  on the this this one storage facility case was the   only thing I I mean, again, I just want to I just  want to give him an opportunity to with everything   going on if he needs more than a week. But again,  you have you have every right to raise this issue,   but I think you have a valid point. I think  to give him the opportunity at time, that's   val that's valid. Okay. So, I I'm okay with that.  It's up to So, we want it on the agenda two weeks.   Okay. You want to make a motion for that? Uh, I  so move. Yeah, we put Okay. put the uh deferral   and possible exemption on the agenda in two weeks.  All right. We have a motion. Do we have a second?   Second. We have a motion in a second. Is there  any further discussion? All those in favor? I.   All those opposed? Motion carries. Okay. Just make  sure I'm clear. Commissioner Krebs's request next  

week is next week. The other is the following  request for the the timeline issue. Yes. But   then this request is for two weeks. Two weeks.  Okay. Just making sure I'm clear. Thank you.   All right. Does anybody else have anything for  admin open? All right. Hearing nothing. We'll   go into agenda review for the week. No one said  it was going to be easy. That's good discussion   though. It was a very good discussion. Good  morning, Wanda. You Wanda. Good morning, Wanda.   How are you? Good. All right. So, the week of  Monday, May 11th. Monday, May 11th, uh, homeless   services summit with Commissioner Kyler at Carol  County Community College. Tuesday, May 12th, uh,   board of county commissioners open session with an  adopted budget work session. And to be very clear,   there is no public comment at that. And, uh,  then at 3:00 p.m., transit advisory committee   with commissioners Kyler and Krebs. Uh, 7:00 p.m.  11th annual drug overdose and prevention vigil at   the Portugo at St. John with commissioners  Gordon and Kyler. Wednesday, May 13th,   farm museum board meeting with myself. 5 o'clock  PM historic preservation month reception. Uh   Sunday morning at Savannah's in New Windsor with  Commissioner Gordon. Thursday, May 14th, 8:00 a.m.   closed admin followed by open session at 9:00 a.m.  Item number one, priority Carol Scouts of America   State of Scouting presentation to the county  and then older Americans month proclamation.   Item number two, uh, grant and approval to accept  application and acceptance of award for Marbidco   local government cost share program for the  faithful friends farm LLC expansion project.   Item number three, contract award for coordinated  community support services for Carroll County uh,   public schools. Item number four, approval to  purchase Cisco Hyperflex replacement. Item number   five, approval to purchase pavement testing and  rehabilitation recommendations. Item number six,   approval to purchase storm water pipe CCTV  and evaluation services. Item number seven,   budget transfer small area plan amendment and  overlay zoning district. Item number eight,  

contract award for small area plan amendment and  overlay zoning district for the freedom area. Item   number nine, uh discussion decision amendments  to chapter 158 use off the premises signs and   chapter 158.13 general regulations in chapter  158. the the billboard conversation we've been   having. Item number 10. Uh yes, Commissioner. Item  nine, public hearing and comments are closed. So   that's no public comments. Correct. Correct. Thank  Thank you for the Thank you for pointing that out,   Commissioner. I just think the people are  here. It says it does say. Yeah. Yeah,   but I wanted people to hear that. Yeah,  good point. If anybody's listening and Well,   it says it on each of these items, I think. Nope.  Oh, no. Okay. I thought it said it the other one.   I read it wrong. Sorry. No, no worries. Item  number 10, uh, uh, briefing discussion, possible   decision on proposed amendments to chapter 15  forest conservation. Uh, item number 11, work   session on road design and traffic impact studies.  But we also now have the two uh, items that uh,   Commissioner Krebs raised as well. So, do we want  to uh, postpone the work session on road design   and traffic impact studies? Because I think that  we probably will have a full agenda otherwise. Is   everybody okay with pushing that off a week? The  road studies work session? I'm okay with it. Okay.   All right. So, we'll we'll move that off then. Uh  that'll So, then after Commissioner Krebs items,   we'll have public comments followed by admin open  agenda review and then that evening is the joint   Maryland Municipal League chapter dinner for Carol  and Frederick Countyy's. I will be attending that.   I must have missed the RSVP. RSVP. Who's going  to miss going to dinner in Mount AR? Okay. So,   wait. So, you are or you're not going? I  am going. I I didn't see the invitation   for some reason. You can probably still go, I'm  sure. Yeah, they'll they'll let you in. If not,   if not, we'll sneak you in. I'll just go as your  date, Joe. Okay, that works. That works. And then,   uh, want to spend the evening in Mount Airy?  Mount Air is what I just said. That's right.  

We're going to be in Commissioner Garren's neck of  the woods. All right. So, so Commissioners Garren,   Kyler, Viliatti are attending and Commissioner  Krebs. Um, and then Friday shows nothing on the   formal calendar. Saturday May 16th is Hemstead day  with Commissioner Kyler and then Sunday May 17th   Commissioner Krebs has the podcast. Are there any  changes or alterations to our first week hearing?   None. We'll go into the second week. I just have  a question. Yes. While you're all here because I   might miss you on the on the adopted budget work  session. Can you just tell me how that works? So   it's it's basically what we were doing in the  closed work sessions but will be on film and at   that point we can add a couple things, remove a  couple things. Do we go through like like capital   first and then operating? I mean is it I mean Oh  no. It's just like a work session with us. So like   when we go in there on uh Tuesday u you know there  are two things that I'll be requesting that we're   going to add to to the the budget and then we'll  vote it up or down and then uh once we have all of   our discussions together about you the formation  of the budget we'll vote to advance it or to   to and if we vote to to move it forward we'll  have to vote on it in a separate open session   to to actually uh implement the budget to move it  forward. Can I just ask I mean it was trouble for   me just because I'm a little slow but popping back  and forth between capital and operating. Can we   like do one and then do the other one just so we  Oh, you mean you separate what we're Well, one's   capital, one's operating and might it might be  enterprise funds or whatever, but can we just like   work on one and then work on the next one instead  of hopping back and forth? Well, I mean I guess   it really comes down to how the board wants to  do it. I mean the two requests that I'm going to   make I think one of them I think I think both of  them are operator I think no yours are operating   at are they both what you asked me about was no  it's just easier I don't care which way we do it's   just easier if you stick to one and finish the one  and then it's certainly reasonable to just stick   to one and do the ones in that and see what the  impact would be and then go to the next one. Well,   see, and the reason why I was curious about what  I'm going to bring up is because even though it   it is I guess it's operational, I'm not requesting  anything beyond this year for it. So, that's why I  

was curious with it. So, oper Okay. All right. So,  one time it still can be and bonds or something   affect both. Okay. And and I I just I don't care  how we do it, but okay. We've done it well and the   only thing I don't want to hear is we get done  capital, we get done operating, and one of you   want to bring up something for capital, then you  certainly can. Oh, sure. Sure. I'm just saying if   we could at the first round try to stick the one  and do all the and then certainly you can keep   coming back just all right. Makes sense. So, all  right. So, uh so again, u and that's here that's   in this room. I'll be in this room. All right. So,  the week of Monday, May 18th, if there's nothing   else for the previous week, uh formal calendar for  Monday, May 18th shows nothing. Tuesday, May 19th,   7:30 a.m. Chamber of Commerce annual public safety  awards. All five of us are slated to attend and   at 9:00 a.m. Planning and zoning commission. Uh  however, if needed at 10:00 a.m. we will have a   second adopted budget work session if needed.  And Wanda, I'll be at planning and zoning if   we don't need that. So we could indeed accept the  final budget at either meeting. Correct. Correct.   So after we make the changes if we make stuff the  next which we were there'll be little things. Yep.   Do we have any um time requirements having to  have that out for a certain amount of time? Is   there anything? It's just done. As long as they're  not doing something like raising taxes or or Yeah.   Yeah. You there are certain changes you cannot  make after the public hearing has happened. U you   can't raise taxes without another public hearing,  for example. Um and just to be very clear, we're   not raising taxes. I just want to be very clear  about that. Thank you for pointing that. It was   just an easy example. We are not raising taxes.  No, but I guess what I'm saying is if we all add,   you know, put these things in and and somebody's  expecting that we do something else. There is   nothing more unless unless we might not do we're  saying we might not do the second work session  

because we might not need it. But if the people  that ask us to do these things know that it didn't   happen. Well, we can talk about it next week.  I'm not sure what they are. Okay. So, if needed,   we can talk further. Okay. So, if needed, uh,  public budget work session and there will be no   public comment at that. Then at 2:00 p.m. Veterans  Advisory Meeting with Commissioners Gordon and   Kyler. 5:00 p.m. certificate ceremony for Academy  of Health Professionals at the Career and Tech   Center uh and certificate ceremony for Child  Development and Early Education Engineering at the   Career and Tech Center. So far, nobody is slated  to attend that. Uh Wednesday, May 20th. Wow,   Wednesday, May 20th. There's a lot going on.  Springfield Hospital cent's 130th anniversary   celebration. Commissioners Gordon and Kyler, I'll  be there. probably been RSVP two months ago and   we've got a citation. Okay, there's a citation  that's been been prepared for them. All right. A   historical society of Carol County board meeting,  Cockis Tavern, Westminster with Commissioner   Gordon. Uh certificate ceremony for biomedical  criminal justice building maintenance at Carroll   County Career and Tech Center. Uh followed by the  Carol County Community College Board of Trustees   meeting in the great hall with Commissioner Kyler.  7:00 p.m. uh certificate ceremony for cosmetology   interactive media at the Career and Tech Center.  Uh the Emergency Services Advisory Council at 7:00   p.m. with Commissioner Garin. And then at 7:00  p.m. New Windsor fire and host company number   one parade in New Windsor. Uh Thursday, May  21st, 8:00 a.m. closed uh admin for the Board   of Commissioners, followed by open session for the  Board of Commissioners at 9:00 a.m. Item number   one, priority Carol. Item number two, FY27 budget  adoption. So that's the that's the big budget   vote. Uh 10:00 I'm sorry, 10 o'clock a.m. followed  by item number three, uh briefing discussion,   introduction to water resources elements and I  would imagine that is where we will do the work  

session on roads if we can fit it in. Uh followed  by public comments, admin open and agenda review.   Friday, May 22nd, Carroll County Farm Museum  annual Yes. And did you say uh the the self   storage? Oh, I apologize. Will be added to also.  Thank you very much for the reminder. So, the self   storage discussion will also be on Thursday,  May 28th. Thank you very much, Commissioner   Ker. Um uh followed by admin open agenda review.  Friday, May 22nd, Carol County Farm Museum annual   volunteer dessert tea. Commissioners Gordon and  Kyler and I may attend that depending on how my   schedule works out. Uh Saturday, May 23rd, nothing  on the formal calendar. And then Sunday, May 24th,   I have the podcast. Does anybody have any changes  or corrections to the second week? Hearing none,   we need a motion to adjurnn. So moved. We have a  motion. Is there a second? Second. All those in   favor? I. All those opposed? Motion carries.  I just want to mention one if if we on the