Board of Aldermen - Regular Meeting

Ms. Good

evening, everyone. Good evening, and welcome to the Tuesday, 02/17/2026, meeting of the Carrboro Town Council. This is a regular business meeting. And before we get into anything, we will be hearing from our Carrboro Poet Laureate, Doctor. Amanda Bennett. Welcome, Doctor. Bennett.

Thank you. Good evening, everybody. I'm happy to be back. This is a poem about ordinary care, the kind that may not make headlines but does make a life. It's called Sweetness Comes Late, Unglamorous.

Care, unglamorous. Love, unglamorous. Apologize, unglamorous. Forgive, unglamorous. Show up, unglamorous. Afraid, unglamorous. Will you be with me, unglamorous? Is this real life, unglamorous? Things we'd rather forget, unglamorous. To be whole, unglamorous. To desire, unglamorous. To know you, unglamorous. In the waiting room, unglamorous. Holding your tea, unglamorous. Holding you, unglamorous.

What are we doing, unglamorous. Ancestors dream the future, unglamorous. Taste these grits, unglamorous. Put a little more sugar in it, unglamorous.

Very unglamorous.

Sweetness comes late, unglamorous. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Doctor. Bennett. You know, had to speak up about that grits now, you know, that sugar. Doctor. It's the sugar on grits. Doctor. That sugar on grits. No, no, no, no. All right. Doctor. I remember that. All right. Thank you so much for that poem this evening and for opening our meeting, in always such a meaningful way. And so we appreciate you very much.

So I don't have any resolutions or proclamations this evening, but I do have a couple of reminders. Early voting is still going on, I believe, until the twenty eighth of this month, and with primary election day being March 3. So get out and cast your vote. Also, a reminder about Black History Month events. Activities are still ongoing.

I was very honored to be at our last speaker series last night, and we heard very powerful presentations by Doctor. Ivy Taylor from UNC and Representative Amos Quick III, who represents Guilford County and the North Carolina General Assembly. So I think there are several other events that are going on this month, so I just want to encourage folks to get out and try to participate in those. And next up is our town manager's update. Town manager Tony.

Good evening, mayor and council. In the same vein of celebrating Black History Month, we would like for you all to join the town of Carrboro with the Chapel Hill Carrboro Chamber of Commerce and Black Business Alliance for circulating black history, which is a community spin week, a community wide effort to celebrate Black History Month through collective economic action. My leadership team this week started the week at Flying Pierogi, which was excellent. We saw Councilmember Palmer there as well. Tomorrow, February 18, we wanted to patronize Tanya's cookies. And then on Thursday, we need to patronize Carolina Carwash right here

in

Carrboro. So it's free. Please you can register or just show up to attend these events, and it's a great way to give back to our black owned businesses in the community. That's it. Thank you.

All right. Thank you so much, town manager Tony. So we're going to move right along to public comment period. I do have one person signed up for a comment, Mr. Isaac Wolsey. Wolsey, yeah, you got it. Wolsey. So come on up. You have three minutes. Please address your comments to the council, and welcome.

Is it on?

Yes.

All

right. Hello. My name is Isaac Wolsey, disability rights advocate and activist. Right now, we're in a problem right now in this Orange County. We are get both Chapel Hill Carrboro, not not too much of an extent, but there is, like, one or two that are being built.

They're they're building luxury apartments, which is driving up rent and driving up property, the the the prices. And only 30 percent of Orange County actually owns homes. That's, a rough estimate. And yet so so the few people who own homes, they're getting their property values to increase. But everyone else who is renting, like me, we're we're being priced out.

I make $1,072 a month in SSDI payments and whatever odd job I can do on ShiftSmart and make extra money then. But the average rent price is 1,500. Do the math. So and right and and even with and I pay $7.50 a month in the cheapest possible apartment, but I have to share it with three other men. I I want to get my own place for for so me and my girlfriend can can start a life together, but but but she's also on SSDI.

And we don't want to have to be forced to live in a in a CASA apartments because you you've heard about CASA. I don't need to go into details. But they they I think housing, call me a radical, I think housing should be a human right and not just, toys for millionaires. Mostly chap now Carrboro doesn't do this, but they have been building a luxury apartment next to the Flying Pierogi. And I'm like, I thought that was very inappropriate, like a middle finger to our community.

I want you, US counsel, to to not grant any, building permit or land grant to to any developer who wants to make unaffordable housing. We need to invest in our community. Most of the homeless people that everyone complains about on Triangle Blog Blog, that are that are frequenting businesses and messing them up, Most of them are disabled and mentally ill. So it's a very ableist problem. And, and that's why I brought this pillow here to show my solidarity with with with the homeless and the disabled in this community.

And I even thought about sleeping on the floor in protests like John Lewis, but I thought that was too far. But thank you. Happy Black History Month.

Thank you so much, Mr. Woolsey. Very good comments. Some we continue to work on here in town housing, particularly affordable housing. So we appreciate you coming in. Thank you. We are down to our consent agenda. Council members, these items, of course, are part of Normantown business. I assume that nobody wants to pull either one of these items, And so we will be able to approve the consent agenda in a single motion for these actually, I'm sorry, three items.

I'll move the consent agenda. Second.

All right. It's been moved and properly seconded that we move the consent agenda. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. And all of us are here, seven-zero. Town Manager Tony, we're down to the general agenda.

On the general agenda item, the first item is the information only item. This is to provide an update on the town's recovery efforts following tropical storm Chantal and provide an overview of the FEMA public assistance process. Our fire chief and emergency manager, chief Will Potter, will give this presentation.

Good evening.

Good evening.

Thank you for allowing me a few minutes to talk about our tropical storm Chantal recovery and an overview provide an overview of the FEMA public assistance program. Ultimately, tonight, what I would like to do is provide a high level recovery status update, summarize the FEMA PA projects that we have submitted, and then also discuss our timelines, risks, next steps for those those projects. As we talk tonight, I'm speaking specifically to publicly owned infrastructure, public expenses that cost taxpayers funds. This is not in any way to diminish the losses of our friends and neighbors. We understand that they are still recovering and will be for years in many cases.

We spoke with them last night and are are hopeful that they will be able to return home soon, but we know that they are still suffering and are still working to get back into their homes. But this specifically is losses to town infrastructure and town expenses. We have spoken about the town damage to the public works facility and to the yard. There's also a fence there that was destroyed during Chantal that is also one of our specific impacts. We lost a lot of fleet vehicles.

When we were talking about fleet vehicles, they're vehicles that can pretty easily be replaced. And we also lost some specialized vehicles, so these are things that have more of a lead time. So maybe that's an upfit, as in a a police car or a garbage truck, something like that, that takes a little bit more time, and it takes some upfitting to make it effective. Something else that we have discussed briefly, but not ultimately when it comes to expenses is the emergency response itself. So there are a lot of personnel hours, a lot of time, a lot of equipment utilized in the immediate aftermath of Chantal and then also in the debris operations that lasted for weeks and ultimately over a month after after the storm.

I can say that 80 the best of our records, 84 tons of debris were hauled off following Chantal, so that's almost a 170,000 pounds. That is quite quite an undertaking. Hats off to our public works crews. I see Director Bellinger's in the back. But ultimately, that costs a lot of money.

And what that leads us to is FEMA public assistance, and the public assistance program is a cost share program supporting disaster recovery. And cost share sounds scary, but what I will note for this particular disaster is that the cost shares between the federal government and North Carolina Emergency Management. So North Carolina Emergency Management picks up the 25 of the cost share for the disaster recovery. The town share for FEMA public assistance funds is 0%. Now there will be some shortfalls and things that we will have to use town funds for, and there are town expenses that we have already town dollars that we have already spent, but that when it comes to the the public assistance funds, we do not have to have a cost share in that.

The program is a reimbursement program ultimately. So that is eligible costs are documented and reviewed at multiple levels through town staff and then through FEMA, and then we submit those for reimbursement. There are a few few exceptions, but most of it is reimbursement driven. And there are a number of categories of of coverage or of eligible expenses, and some of those are debris removal, emergency response or emergency protective measures, damage to facilities such as the damage at public works, and contents and equipment that was uninsured or underinsured as well. I don't think I have to say 07/06/2025 was the the day that this all started.

I know that that date will be etched in our our town's mind for the foreseeable future. But from a FEMA perspective, that sixth to the seventh is what we call the incident period. So it's that twenty four hours starting the afternoon, and those are that's important for some of our emergency protective measure expenses, but ultimately, that is our incident period. After that July date, the town, along with other partners in the county, worked diligently to provide preliminary damage assessments for both town facilities and for damage to the community, and that was submitted. And then on August 5, governor Stein declared a state of emergency or sorry, a disaster declaration for for the state.

Backing up one step, so there was a local state of emergency the night of Chantal on the sixth. That was the county and then the three municipalities. After governor Stein declared a disaster, he then asked the federal government to do the same. And a little over a month later on September 11, a FEMA major disaster declaration authorizing the public assistance program was issued. That October 11 date is important, because then that starts, I'm sorry, the September late because that starts a lot of, clocks and timelines.

The first one is the request for public assistance deadline. So from that date, on that September 11 date, you have thirty days to submit your request for public assistance, which the town did, and that request was accepted. Based on that acceptance, the on the twelfth, we had a recovery scoping meeting. So that's where we that was our first meeting face to face with FEMA. We met at the Drakeford, and then we went to public works so they could see the facilities and see the damage and start to scope what the what the total impacts to the community were.

After that date, you then have sixty days to submit a damage inventory. The damage inventory is a y is an overview of all of the damages and has but all of our damages have to be captured in that damage inventory. And that submission deadline was sixty days after our recovery scoping meeting, so that made January 11. So all of that our damage inventory was submitted ahead of the deadline and accepted by FEMA. Beyond that, the next date that is really important is 03/11/2026.

So that is six months from the actual FEMA disaster declaration, and that is the emergency work period. So it says there for project categories a and b, the next slide will show exactly what those categories are, but that is the deadline for performing certain emergency protective measures and debris removal. There is a six month time extension that can be requested, but our current plans are not to request an extension because all of our documentation is prepared to be submitted by that deadline. The last deadline is 03/11/2027, so that's eighteen months from the initial disaster declaration, and that deadline is for what FEMA calls permanent work categories or permanent work, and that is categories c through g. With that though, up to a thirty month time extension may be granted.

Those are for the long some of those projects are longer term and may include, like, relocation, rebuilding, things such as that, and that's why you have that extended time period and then the ability to request an extension. So there are additional categories, but these are the categories of work that Carbro has active projects in. The emergency works with that deadline of March 11, debris removal is pretty self explanatory. However, it does include things like force account labor, so personnel hours. It includes equipment utilized during that, which will be helpful to recoup and be reimbursed for some of those expenses.

And then also emergency protective measures. Emergency protective measures is fairly broad, and that is many of the activities and expenses that occurred directly and immediately after the storm. Beyond that, we have a number of permanent work projects as well, including water control facilities. So there was a was damage to a culvert pipe that was repaired by town staff, buildings, equipment, and vehicles, once again, the town public works facility and vehicles and equipment that were there. Parks and other facilities, while we did not have any parks damage, the fence is captured under the other facilities.

So that is separate from the vehicle I'm sorry, separate from the buildings, but that was captured there. And then category z is management costs. So those are expenses of town town staff time and then also the consultant's time for helping to prepare and submit projects for for our public assistance projects.

I'm sorry, chief Am I missing c? The C

We do not have the town does not have any projects. Are only the projects. Sorry, I don't have C.

We don't have anything categorized under C.

No, ma'am. Don't have any categories, any expenses. These So no are the these are the categories of work that we have. And then two slides will show kind of exactly what those are.

Okay. Thank you. Back

up one. From a high level, we have multiple projects across those categories that were just referenced previously. Many of those projects are in progress with FEMA review ongoing, and then several projects are awaiting eligibility, or insurance documentation and insurance coordination. As of this time, these are the projects that we have. And so there may be some separation between these projects and that is because some of these are going to be longer term projects and some of these, especially if town funds have already been used and they've already been completed, that we would like to expedite those reimbursements.

And so sometimes that is why projects are separated out. Debris removal, we've already discussed as well as emergency protective measures. There's another category b project that is freightliner. This is a boom truck that was replaced during the or immediately after the storm, and that was actually needed, and that truck that was able to be replaced was used as part of our emergency protective measures and as part of our debris removal following the storm. So that one is very, very close. It is in the CRC. They are basically costing, but that one, hopefully, we will have funds flowing in for that one in the very near future.

Chief, so that I understand the order here, if something is in progress, is that before or after pending submission?

The pending submission is like it has already been like it is we are for the debris removal, we are trying to capture a few extra load tickets, but everything is prepared. In progress is more like the step right before this pending submission.

Thank you. And

for the emergency protective measures and the debris removal. So the reason that those are pending, they are prepared to be submitted. We're just trying to make sure that we capture all of our eligible costs. So we are kind of pushing that closer to the deadline just to make sure that we don't get any invoices or we don't uncover any costs because after that March 11 date, we aren't able to submit any additional projects.

Quick question on that, and that was one of the questions that I had noted. Is these I'm seeing that these are all project based. Once you submit the project, you can't reopen or resend an application should something come in. Say, we submit the debris removal and then something happens and we find out a new invoice or whatever, there's no way of resubmitting that. That's why it has to be sent in one. Okay.

Yes. That is correct. So because it can't be resubmitted, that's why we wait kind of until later on. The finance department, we actually met with them pretty early on the morning of the seventh, and a project code was established to make sure that we were capturing all of our eligible costs. And so I feel comfortable with where we are. It's just making sure that I'm just kinda waiting until that deadline so we don't miss miss out on a reimbursement.

No. And I appreciate that. Thank you for that. Absolutely.

Storm water drain, that's a culvert pipe. So that one, we are working on finalizing some documentation for that and also looking into potential for hazard mitigation. There's a project for the garage and building damage that was that occurred, and that is some of that is damage to other facilities that are not captured in the actual main public works facility. We also have public works yard and garage relocation project. Specialized fleet vehicles, so we separated specialized fleet vehicles from regular vehicle damage due to the lead time that is required for some of those vehicles.

So because it's reimbursement based, we didn't want to hold up a easier to obtain vehicle or a piece of equipment while we were waiting for those longer projects.

Chief, could you speak briefly to the how the building damage and yard garage relocation sort of go together. Is this I know we have a much longer lead time on that. Is that eventually going to include sort of rebuilding costs or is it limited just to covering uninsured losses from the original event?

I would say the answer to that is yes and. So, yes, it will cover the uninsured losses. That is what it is designed the program is designed for. However, we are also, because of the critical nature of the facility and the location being partially in the AE flood zone that we are requesting that that be the relocation be included in that as well. So they're separated as projects, but we are working with town staff and FEMA to further our efforts of relocating that and including that building damage and the uninsured losses at the current site and the rebuild when that is when that site is selected.

Perfect. Mhmm.

We also had contents and equipment. So some of our equipment was either uninsured or underinsured, and some of it is even, like, losses due to depreciation. So there were I think there was around 28% roughly of depreciation in some of the contents and equipment, and FEMA will those the that depreciation is an eligible expense as well. And then the last project here is the fencing. So I think that's important just because regardless of what we do with the site, it's gonna take some time to making sure that everything is secured well while we while we work on that site.

And that one has been this says pending award now. That has been approved and obligated by FEMA. That goes from FEMA to North Carolina Emergency Management. So we should have in less than thirty days, we will have that award those award funds in hand for the fence replacement.

If you don't mind elaborating just a little bit. So once once it's approved at FEMA, what does the flow then look like before the the cash actually arrives to the town?

Absolutely. So I will say that so once it's approved at FEMA and then they move it to what's called obligated, those funds pass pretty quickly from from FEMA to NCEM. And North Carolina Emergency Management is amazing at turning those funds around very quickly. We have a very close relationship with our with our representative with NCEM, and they understand kind of the pressures that we are under, and so they are working to get those funds. I think they technically say thirty to forty five days, but we're seeing some with North Carolina Emergency Management as fast as ten day turnaround.

Oh, wow. That's great.

Sounds good.

Any other question? This is kind of the big slide. So any other questions there? Any I know it's a lot of projects, and I know it seems like a lot of it seems like a lot, but I think the biggest part is that we are trying to move these projects as quickly as possible, and we're trying to maximize our reimbursements and maximize how quickly we receive those reimbursements. So there is so we minimize the impacts to our community.

One final question, chief. For a and b's, how confident are you that we will be able to make all these requests in time for the deadline, or will we seeking an an extension for any of these?

We I'm very, confident that we will make the deadline. So everything is it is all prepared and we are ready to go. Right. We're just making sure that we don't receive Yeah. An invoice on March 1 and we're like, oh, that should have been that should have been under debris removal or emergency protective measures. We haven't really seen a lot. We most of those invoices are already in. We're just trying to be doubly sure. So I'm very confident that we'll make that deadline.

Nice. I appreciate

that.

And the only deadline that we may request an extension is when we start talking about the relocation realistically. Because I mean that could

be I imagine that would be the one that requires a little bit more than, what is it, thirty months or something? Or

Absolutely. The thirty month the thirty month extension from the eighteen months. Yes, sir.

One more question if I if I can send you back to that slide. Yes. We've heard some updates from the manager around the vehicle damage part, like sorting out what insurance covers and the gap between sort of, for instance, on a fairly old fleet vehicle, that there may be a gap between what the insurance covers, the replacement cost to get parity of equipment, and how much of that FEMA will cover. Are there any details in there you think would be helpful for us in terms of, like, understanding what impact that has on the timeline or the amount that we may be reimbursed?

I think ultimately it just extends the timeline for the reimbursement. And the reason for that is after we like, so we have submitted documentation and we have submitted kind of our reasons for kind of why we need this gap covered. This can be pretty substantial based on the number of vehicles. I think the challenging part is that normally for for some of these vehicles that set, like fleet vehicles, you don't see the number that we saw damaged generally. So it may be a smaller number, it's easier to kind of maneuver through, or it's easier even sometimes for for municipalities or counties to to move on and just cover the cost themselves.

Because of the number of vehicles, we are pushing very hard to have that gap covered as much as we can. So that will extend the time line, but it will also help us maximize that reimbursable expense. We haven't gotten a lot of, like, finality in saying, yes, this is or is not gonna be covered and what those dollars look like. But we are working closely with the consultant and with with FEMA. Our project manager with FEMA is is absolutely amazing and working through and pushing and fighting for us. Honestly, it feels like he's feels like he's one of us because he's really pushing right there alongside of us to make sure that we so I don't have a a specific answer except that we are working hard to make sure that we maximize those reimbursements because it can be pretty sizable.

Thank you.

Chief, I said last question. I lied to you. I'm sorry. The fees of the consultant that you mentioned, are those covered by FEMA, or is that something that is coming out of the town's pocket?

Yes. So those are that comes back into the management costs or category z expenses.

Okay.

And so the way that those are calculated is that we are eligible for up to 5% on top of any of the obligated projects. So if the so any of those projects that are obligated, we receive the funds over and above that and that will cover the expenses of the consultant, but that will also cover town staff, town time, so we can cover some of that. So I think I've seen Chaz in the back, like finance has been really helpful. I mean, it's just a lot of reports and it's a lot of pulling and looking and Yeah. Preparing everything, making sure everything is audit ready. So there's a lot of town staff time that will be reimbursable under that category, but then the consultant fees as well.

And that's the one that has eighteen month deadline as well?

For the management cost? Yeah. So the management cost, as soon as the project is obligated, the management cost become available to us, and then we submit the justification and we can draw down those funds pretty quickly Okay. From

I understand.

So it's 5% over and above. So it's I think that sometimes it's not that we only get 95% of the project and 5% for the management cost. So it's 5% above. Perfect. Thank you. Yes. Absolutely.

Great clarification. Thank you. So

factors affecting projects, document completeness. There is a as with any kind of program, there are a lot of documentation requirements and some FEMA eligibility interpretations as well. Insurance coordination and coverage determination. So FEMA or public assistance dollars are designed to be the last dollar spent, kind of the dollar of last resort. And so we are working with the league municipalities.

We've met with them we've met with them regularly to try to capture all of our what was eligible, what was what we received insurance proceeds for, and that will be deducted. But we are capturing all those expenses and submitting those as well. And then asset disposition. So FEMA is very interested in what happens to, especially vehicles and equipment, after they are disposed of. So they really wanna see where they go and that they aren't just taken somewhere and abandoned or buried or something like that. So we're working through those.

Really quick question here and this this might be for Chaz or for the manager. Have we received all of the insurance payouts at this point or is there any insurance still pending?

I believe we're a very close council member to receiving 100% cost recovery. There are some like the public works facility where we wanted a little bit more of insurance proceeds and then we received. But yes, we're on track for nearly 100% cost recovery.

So

our key challenges, once again, our eligibility determinations are still pending on several projects. That is really just helping us capture exactly what of those gap gaps we will be eligible for reimbursement. Insurance documentation is critical. Once again, the league has been terrific, and we've submitted everything, I believe, all of the insurance requirements so far. Some costs may not be fully reimbursable.

So this is all based on there is a a pro a program guidebook that really outlines the eligible expenses. There are some for instance, non congregate sheltering was not covered for this particular event. That's been kind of a larger larger conversation, but we are well aware of the expenses that are not gonna be reimbursable and we are capturing everything very closely. And then lastly, some projects will have extended timelines. You could be looking at years for some of them, especially if we talk relocation or rebuilding of the Public Works Building.

Recovery is progressing and progressing well, but it is dependent on FEMA processes and available staffing within FEMA consolidated resource centers. That's the CRC that I was speaking of earlier. So they perform costing on any of our projects. And so there there have been some staffing challenges there as far as numbers and how many projects they are assigned. However, like I said, we we have a very excellent relationship with our program manager, and he's been working hard to move projects through quickly.

Final reimbursement totals are not yet known, but they are looking through our documentation, and we feel confident with many of our award dollars, and we are very happy with the consultant as well as far capturing all of our eligible expenses. And then administrative coordination will continue long term. Think we're, like, two slides up. We're almost there. Next steps are continued coordination with FEMA and our North Carolina emergency management partners, finalized documentation and continue with insurance coordination, and then to advance the public works facility relocation and planning.

In closing, staff remain focused on recovery, compliance and fiscal stewardship. Part of that is making sure that we maximize every possible dollar that's reimbursable and bring those funds back to Carrboro to limit the financial strain and the burden and the effects on our community. FEMA public assistance is critical to long term recovery funding, but the process can be challenging, and so we are work dedicated to working through that. And then ultimately, I just wanna make sure that council is aware of where we are and what's happening so that when as we as decisions are made in the future that you have all of the facts and are are prepared. And now we'll take questions.

Well, we've had a few. Maybe there won't be any more. So great job on the presentation, Chief Potter. I appreciate it so much. And appreciate town of Carrboro's staff and leadership for just being on it in this process and, I guess, being as far along as we are. And I don't know, council members, do we have any other questions or comments before Chief Potter takes his seat? Looks like everybody is chilly booly.

Excellent.

Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Oh, yeah. You pulled one of mine. Really quickly. And so, when will there be another, you know, kind of check-in for counsel, or how often would that occur? I know this is a very high level overview, but I was just wondering how information will flow from this point since you presented this to us.

Absolutely. So I think that what we'll do is I'll anytime that there are updates in progress, like in the overall projects, that I can forward those to the manager's office for sharing via email. And then once we have several of these projects closed out, we I can present another present then and be be helpful be happy to answer any questions. Sorry. Can't speak. But I'll I'll do everything by email and then if we get to a kind of a milestone, I will make sure that we meet again and then I can present here in front of you.

Sounds good. Thank you, Chief Potter. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Next item, Town Manager Tony.

Second agenda item is for information only as well. This is a presentation about our stormwater enterprise. There will be a Part B to the presentation where our GIS administrator will give some information also about surface and pervious surface calculations and additional information about potential tiers. So to start off the presentation, we have Dylan Kirk. He is over our stormwater enterprise.

Alright. Welcome, Dylan.

Thank you for that introduction, and always a pleasure to be here to discuss a topic that I'm passionate about, stormwater management. I know we've had some struggles over the last year that have highlighted this and just welcome the opportunity to get a chance to discuss this with you tonight. So you can see we have a pretty full agenda. We're gonna work through that in a very conversational tone. We'll start off pretty, you know, just covering some general concepts and then move into a more technical discussion.

And as the manager said, turning it over to our GIS administrator to come talk about that component of, you know, some of this conversation. So starting off, we're gonna talk about two general concepts. And for those listening along online, I know we have varying degrees of expertise and familiarity with these topics. So just wanna really set a foundation for everyone listening online and and council members that may be less familiar with these issues. So what is storm water?

Basically, whenever there's sort of precipitation that occurs in our municipality that is gonna fall on our driveways, rooftops, streets, sidewalks, this water is gonna move towards nearby streams. And as it goes along, it's gonna pick up all sorts of pollutants. So oils, greases, garbage along in our community, and that's gonna get deposited in our waterways. And so I know that can be very concerning if people are unfamiliar with that topic. We are legally permitted to do this.

And so we have the federal government works with state government to issue what's called an MS four permit. And so we as a municipality have that permit, and we have certain program obligations that we need to meet. And that's why we have a storm water utility essentially. So the next sort of definition that I'm gonna present to you is the term built upon area, meaning impervious surfaces and partially impervious surfaces to the extent that water does not infiltrate into the subsoil. And so I chose to share this definition with you all as I understand from my conversations with the manager that this is a factor in in our future rate that y'all are interested in exploring.

And as you can see there, I have a a little fact down there. One inch of rainfall on a one acre impervious parcel yields about 27,000 gallons of water. So rightfully so, this is what's causing a lot of the destruction that chief Potter had talked to you about and the the kind of rain events that we've experienced here. And so with tropical storm Chantel, chief would have better better facts on this, but we received about nine to 11 inches of rain from that event. And so you can see, you know, just given this fact that that that volume of water gets amplified real quick, real fast based on this.

So, you know, that was a terrible experience we we had here in our community. To to kinda put that in perspective, hurricane Helene out in Western North Carolina, those communities experienced about 20 to 30 inches of rain. So there are bigger storms out there and, you know, just kind of put that into perspective for you. I'm sure our sustainability administrator could could go into all the facts about our our warming environment and why that's bad news for, you know, water vapor and the potential that that holds. Just go on from there.

So again, I'm going to cover just a reminder on fun types and ask you all today, you're gonna have to wear kind of two caps during this conversation. You're gonna need to wear a cap where you're a town council member and also a smaller cap, really in the perspective of managing a utility and managing an enterprise fund. So if if you all can indulge me, try to wear those different caps, realize where your perspective is coming from. I'm not saying that we can't work together, but really there is a differentiation there and, you know, a change in perspective that you each individually will have to undertake to understand kind of how the storm water utility operates. And so just covering some general definitions, you know, the general funds, I think that's everyone's pretty used to to that fund.

It's kind of how you all do business now. The government relies on a mix of taxes and general revenue sources. You direct that money through the general fund to essentially our departments to carry out work. So in in 2017, the board of aldermen decided to start a storm water utility and essentially break away storm water funds from that general fund. And kind of kind of the reason for that is it sort of sets those funds aside to ensure that they're for a specific self sustaining activity.

They really restrict those. So I I know there's we're in budget season. There all sorts of negotiations and priorities we're working on. Those funds get set aside. And really what allows us to do this is North Carolina general statute one sixty eight three fourteen.

I'd encourage you all to look at that specific statute because really a lot of what I'm able to do is statute based at the state level. And then finally, just covering for tax year 2025, you can see that we brought in about $1,100,000 in utility fees. So I just brought up and changed the slide. This is essentially someone's property tax bill that we received. There's different ways to kind of collect these fees.

Many municipalities, they operate as a sewer or a water utility and they just tack those on to those bills. We don't really have that as an option since we use a Wassa for our water and sewer charges. We work through Orange County. And so you can see the taxes that you would collect for that that pink general fund bucket. You would essentially take assessed property value, divide it by a $100, and then multiply it by your rates.

And so you can see the general fund for this particular property is getting about $2,525,000 dollars. And again, so the difference between taxes and fees, taxes escalate with the that assessed value. So if you own a nicer house, you pay more in property taxes essentially. Whereas a fee, we charge a standard rate. So if you're hearing from constituents that they're residential constituents, let me clarify there, if they're paying something else besides zero, one hundred dollars, or $200, they're they're most likely misreading their bill.

And so there are some circumstances and and self admittedly, we've made rate errors in the past. But if they're coming to you and saying that, please direct them to the utility and we'll try to correct their bill. So I'm gonna cover the next two slides pretty quickly. Storm water revenue sources, I just wanted to cover, you know, some of the other funds that we have, grants and partnerships. Overall, as a general trend, I would say that those are decreasing or moving towards limited back funding situations.

As chief Potter said, I'm just happy that FEMA exists at this point, and I do so annually. They're a great resource, especially when dealing with damage from, you you know, flood situations. Some of our other state funding we've seen kind of dry up over the last year and a half. And so we have very low levels of control over that. It's at the federal government or the state level.

You know, we try to seek out those opportunities, and we are working with our strategic partners to bring those dollars into our community. It's just getting harder. Moving on to service and permit fees, the trend overall is we'd be looking to increase in line with our neighboring communities. And so sometimes the work of development involves the utility either as we are kind of water quality experts. And so in order to proceed with development of the community, sometimes we're asked asked to provide services and we charge a fee base for that.

And it's basically to cover staff time to go out there and and make sure that we're getting infrastructure and assets put in the ground in a way that that we need them to be. We have a high level of control over this. You know, if if something you know, if we're using more staff time to do something, we should be charging to recoup those costs. And I think that in the prior presentations that I've heard from council, some members of the public have pointed that out to us. We we do use those fees and we do try to recover that effort.

And finally, the storm water utility fee. General trend, I've gotten calls from multiple municipalities asking what we're doing. It's it's kind of the same, you know, we kind of talk and and as a general trend, they're they're all increasing their fees at this point. And hopefully, can explain that to you in this presentation. And we have a high level of control over this.

The general statutes that I pointed out earlier points to our ability to do this. Covering fee history and operations, the residential utility fee history, we initially started the utility in 2017 at a cost of $75 for residential properties. The asterisk denote some significant fee changes. And what I would say is typically those fee changes relate to bringing on an additional staff member. And so overall, we're the vast majority of properties at this point in Carrboro pay $100 a year, which is fairly reasonable considered, you know, if you compare that to other utilities, your, you know, a Wassa or your cable bill, that's overall pretty reasonable.

And so I I have some concerns over this. And so if you look at inflation just from 2017, if we were initially charging $75, we're basically covering inflation costs at this point. And so as counsel, that might sound okay to you, but I'd like you to consider all the municipal assets that we've added since thousand seventeen. Every development that they've said, we're gonna put a public road in here. Well, there's typically in the developments that we've done over since that time, storm drain in those streets.

And so those are town assets that we need to plan for and bring in additional revenue to have programs that involved in the maintenance of those. And so, really, what I'm proposing in in this informational item is and what I've planned for in my 2026 capital improvements is to conduct a rate study. And what that is is basically a comprehensive fiscal analysis of the storm water utility, our municipal assets, and, you know, looks at the rate looks at the form of the rate that we use and the kind of formula that we're using and puts that into perspective. It's it's best practice and industry standard to do that. Most large municipalities do that on a three to five year cycle.

I would say it's not uncommon for smaller ones to do that on a ten year cycle. And so, you know, when we initially started the utility, we did not conduct one one of those. And so really, this is a good period to do that. We have good baseline data to do it and can project further into the future. And then it's really to just assess required and evaluates optional services.

So if we're going to add a service that's going to relate in cost, and so, you know, just taking that into consideration. So where do our utility fees go? About 50% to capital expenditures, about 25% to personnel, and about 25% to operating expenses. And so those are great words. I'm sure most of the public, you know, has trouble with that.

There's some pictures to kinda cover what that means. Starting on the left side of the presentation, so capital expenditures are actual physical storm water assets that we're putting in in the ground. This is our bio retention cell directly in front of the Drakeford Library. It's got some additional overflow capacity. You you can't even tell that's there.

It's under some benches right now. And so those sort of nifty, very urban storm water features, they're usually underground, and they usually take take money to put in the ground. In the top of the slide, this is you're gonna have to imagine yourself as a little robot in a storm water pipe, And what we have here is a root cutting tool that has been expanded inside this pipe because it's so wrapped up in tree roots. And so this is some of the regular maintenance activities that I'm talking about. I think I think some of the questions from the council members, how does, you know, trees and and vegetation play into our role?

And and I'm all supportive of trees just as long as they're not sending their roots into our storm water pipes. And so kind of planning where those assets are at is really beneficial. Not to say that that trees are not great. I I love trees and they they do an immense amount of work in lit in reducing storm water. In the bottom picture on the slide, that's just my staff member at Open Streets last year.

We wanna have activities where we can pay our personnel to be out there engaging with the public, help helping communicate the importance of this work and the importance of, you know, following our programs or or understanding why you shouldn't change your oil over the storm drain or, you know, leave open paint buckets out on the side of the road or, you know, dump dump your grease out in the street. You know, this this these are all things that that we see as an organization throughout the year. And then finally, over on the right side there, we have municipal operations. We have private operations in town. Sometimes stuff happens and there's no way around that.

So we wanna be able to address those spills that occur in our community, clean them up, and ensure that if there's any potential contamination that that we wanna make sure it's going to an environmentally regulated facility. And that and that, as chief Potter put it out, there's proper documentation for that stuff. A lot of my position in my program is all about proper documentation. And so I'm gonna kinda change the the conversation. We'll talk a little bit about our fee structure.

Currently, we use a tiered model. Residents below 500 square feet don't pay anything annually. Between 506,000 square feet, folks pay a flat fee of a $100 annually. And above 6,000 square feet, they pay $200 annually. The pros of this is it's simple to implement.

The cons of it is it's very minimally progressive. I would say in general interpretation of that is 6,000 square feet is a pretty high value for any municipalities that I know about. As a future consideration, this is just an ERU sort of formula that's used. It's there's about four typical storm water rate kind of methodologies that are used. There's probably as many as eight or nine in existence if you look nationally, but there's pretty much four that that most of the country is using.

And so this is an ERU model. It basically takes total built upon area, which I talked about at the start of this presentation, and divides it by what's typically used as a single family home residential unit. And so then you get an ER value ERU value, and then you multiply that with whatever storm water fee that a rate study would determine. So I part of the statute language is I can't just project money out there. I need an actual fact based determination about what are what is it gonna cost to implement some of these municipal improvements.

And so so rate studies are extremely helpful in doing that. The pro of this is easier to understand. You you pave over your lot, you're gonna pay for it. The cons of it is you requires very up to date BU information for actually owned parcels. So that's a that's why municipalities aren't using that. This is a really big lift. And so, you know, I just wanna emphasize that point to counsel that, you know, if we go this direction, it's gonna take some major changes and not just of the utilities consideration with the the other departments in our government as well. So

Can I ask you a quick question?

Yeah. Absolutely. I've been rambling up here, so I I appreciate the break. Do you need to go back?

Well, actually, this is fine. You talk about one of the cons being, you know, it's a very heavy lift. It would require a lot of up to date information. Currently, we stand and we were to move with this to say, just for argument's sake, what would be when you say big lift, talk to me more about what that means.

Yeah. So when when I say big lift and I think Matt's gonna get up here and talk to, you know, about some of that information. But there's significant legal questions that we would have to work through. There was there's significant methodological issues that we're gonna need to work through. People do it. I would say some municipalities are are pushing the scale a little bit. The big ones can do it. You have to think about, you know, our perspectives are government. I've worked for Mecklenburg before. They have other units inside their government that make this less of a lift for them.

They have a tax assessor's office that, you know, they have some of those other departments that the count that are with the county in our situation. So or, you know, basically, all the the big municipalities, they have a earlier lead time for when they started their stormwater programs. They all started around 1995. Most phase twos started around 2007, and we started in 2017. And there's other people behind us. You know, the the EPA pressures the state, bring more people on board, bring more people on board. So eventually, many more municipalities will head in our direction. It's just understanding where you're at in the life of your utility. Does that answer your question?

It does.

Okay.

Is everyone good? Anybody else have any other questions?

I a number of them, but I'm thinking I'm wanting to hold them until they all But go I do I'll pop in here with one. You pointed out that municipalities that do this often have, if they're large, their own tax assessor's office. Is there any so it sounds like there's no statutory block to using tax assessment data to do this kind of work.

I think you need to be very careful with how you approach that. So in 160 A three fourteen, it says I can use impervious surface. How you get there is particularly questionable.

I think I will have some more questions on that when we get to that point.

Everyone else good? Everybody still with me still? Okay. So again, just going back, I took the formula from the previous slide and know, kind of on our right slide, the formula is there and it's over there on the left now. So I've just kind of taken that bake basis.

So in this hypothetical situation, let's say a lot has built upon area 4,726 square feet on it. You would divide that by whatever equivalent rate was determined, and then you get the IRU value. And using our current fee structure, you could see that that equals a $189. And so currently, you know, this this parcel would be paying a $100 annually. And if you were gonna use some sort of formula like this, they would be raised up to a $189 annually. Again, I need to understand where the utility is at from a cost perspective and a financial add, you know.

Super quick, hopefully super quick clarifying question. Just to confirm, the ERU would be a value that we would get from the rate study to be able to justify what that is. That in this slide, the hypothetical is 2,500. We would get that through the process of the rate study. We would get the actual value there. Is

that correct? Yes. Absolutely. And so what they're gonna do in the rate study is they typically take a representative sample of all those, you know, they many many municipalities use single family residentials. There might be other conversations that we need to have about why we shouldn't be using that, particularly in a in a very urban environment.

But anything between 2,003 square feet is pretty typical is what I would say. And then, again, my notes down there. So, yeah, the YRU is based on a representative sample, and then, again, the rate is based on documented funding needs. So a couple clarifying assumptions and and there's a number number of them, but I I wanted to discuss these two. So, again, many of the systems that many of the municipalities that implement these systems are are making assumption or a generalization.

And it's that runoff is directed via connection to a municipal system. And so if you're in a Raleigh or a Charlotte and they paved over Paradise, that's a pretty pretty reasonable assumption to make. When you get into suburban and more bedroom communities, it's it's harder to justify that. We we have some very nice properties over this direction, large houses on large lots. There there's a potential for an overestimation of how how much of an impact they're having on our municipal system.

And then in actuality, there's many site features that affect stormwater. I I will self admit, you know, this is the more BUA or impervious surface is the most important one, but it's not the only one. And so things like soil type or slope, those all have impacts on storm water. You know, if you have a very sandy soil, your rain's gonna probably go right through that. We have very tight soils, very clay heavy soils, and so there's not a there's not a lot of infiltration going on around Carpet.

I think everybody knows that. And then assumption two, there's many factors as to why someone purchased a large property, family size, interest rates. The actuality is that higher economic status does not necessarily increase does not necessarily relate to increased BUA and vice versa. You know, some of our, you know, properties where people are not of economic means, they they have gravel all over their lots, you know. And so they could potentially get swept up in into this and something that council needs to just acknowledge and understand that that that's a possibility.

And then finally, implementation costs must be reasonable and necessary and relative to the benefits. So again, I would say, you know, it's a great idea to go into this and do an exploration of our rate structure and, you know, our utility costs. But again, it has to be beneficial. Most of the municipalities in North Carolina do use a a flat fee system. They don't wanna take on that endeavor.

But I appreciate the council's interest in this topic and the opportunity to do so. So timeline of recommendations, year 01/2026. We've had some internal conversations about potentially offering some bill relief in the fiscal year twenty twenty seven budget. And 250 property owners or $25,000, assuming they're paying a $100 right now, that 250 property owners is based on the Wassa report that you guys previously received. And so setting up a similar program than them.

I will self acknowledge, you know, I I know there's been previous conversations. That's not gonna help everybody that's struggling with bills right now, but at least it's a start. And then update, you know, our budget's due on Monday. I've remembered. So, you know, potentially looking at our storm water fees and just making sure that we're we're keeping those staff costs for other things outside of the utility fee.

Continuing to seek grant grant funding and with our strategic partners. I'm happy to report we brought about we're gonna bring about $200,000 in into our community in Bowland Creek again, hopefully, if the funds are received from the state shortly, and, again, be able to help our residents in that impaired waterway. Year two fiscal 2027, I did talk about this earlier, but this this previous year, we were audited by the state. So the folks from, NCDQ came and, assessed our storm water program in September. We received word from them in November that we were compliant program.

So essentially, we're doing the stuff that we need to be doing. That doesn't mean let off the gas by any means. It means that we're good enough right now. They're gonna come back in four more years and and ask for more as auditors always do. But it means that, you know, we've done a good job and we're trying to progress as a community for our size. So a new new permit will be issued in fiscal year twenty twenty seven. I don't know what they're gonna ask me to do. They might they might say, Dylan, you need to add another program measure and and we need to do this for whatever reason. And so an extra program, as I talked, is more service and so more service, more cost. Complete the rate study.

So looking at fall of calendar year 2026 next fall, and really a conversation and a presentation here is is kind of the last deciding factor on that. I just wanted to hear your questions so I can kind of guard guide that RFP. Happy to include anything you guys wanna explore in it. Revised chapter 18 of the town code. So the storm water section of our town code that would need to be updated in 2027.

Sounds like it's probably gonna have to get updated anyway with where we're at with the UDO and so some significant revisions in that portion. Year 03/2028. So new fields build on 07/01/2027 and payment could potentially be as early as 01/01/2028. And then explore bond solutions for larger community improvements. Council member Palmer, I believe you asked about this question.

So what I mean by that is bigger projects that a storm water utility fee is not we wouldn't wanna increase rates so much to cover these types of projects. So this is your stream restorations or your partnerships with, you know, sustainability and parks and recreation, you know. So, know, bigger bigger multimillion dollar projects if if that's something that the public is interested in pursuing. And I guess with that, just some final conclusive statements. We're at a really good position.

I think we can what we've done in the past and plan for what we want to head towards in the future. And just appreciate the opportunity to talk with you tonight. Happy to answer any questions. I'm going to turn it over to Matt right now, and I promise I'll stick around. So anything you guys want to address, I'm happy to answer. Unless, you know, someone's really burning for a question, happy to answer it right now.

Thank you. Okay.

Just want a light simmer, Madam Mayor.

Right. Hello. My name is Matt Simone. I'm a long time Carrboro resident. Been here since 2000 and the new GIS administrator.

I'm not gonna talk for long. I just wanna talk about the data that it takes to calculate our current rate, and what it would take to update that data, if we decided to change the rate. So I'm going talk about the data needs and opportunities, what we currently have, opportunities to improve what we have as it's related to the storm water rates, some considerations we need to keep in mind as we do this, and I'll present a couple options on what I would recommend to update this data. So just as a reminder, this is our current structure. As Dylan said, we have essentially two tiers for residential households less than 6,000 or above 6,000 square feet.

That is a large number. Currently, 95% of residential households are in that bottom tier. So any type of adjustment we do would impact quite a few people. And so if we are going to go to a either finer tier structure or the ERU model that Dylan presented, either way we need likely better GIS data than we currently have. So what we currently have is was last updated town wide in 2003.

It's been updated on a case by case basis as we get as built as seen on the screen. We'll get a site plan for an addition to a house. We scan that in, change the building footprint. We have a new impervious calculation. Remote sensing and modeling has not been used to update this data.

And I think that we have an opportunity to integrate some of those methods into our current procedure. We have new staff on board that can handle some of these calculations. We also have the availability of new and free imagery from the state from the North Carolina nine one one board. This is six inch imagery that we'll get every three years. There's also an opportunity to partner with Orange County who is considering a contract with an aerial provider who would provide oblique imagery, which is imagery from different multiple sides referenced together, so it's even more accurate.

As part of that process, they would also provide us with impervious models. Whether or not that happens is up in the air still, so it's option. Another option is light detection and ranging from the state, is free data that we could process and come up with our own model of the built environment. It's also an opportunity to do this as advancements in AI and machine learning are much further than they were five, even ten years ago. So some considerations just to keep in mind as we take, if we take this approach, and we are taking this approach partially currently, is that GIS is not a survey.

It cannot be certified. It is for planning purposes mainly. The property lines that we have, we get from Orange County, the tax parcel boundaries, and they can be inaccurate. They can be wildly off at times. That's a process that Orange County is undertaking to correct.

It's not something we control though. And any type of modification to the structure could lead to appeals and staff time to investigate and reply. So I see three main options for us to update the impervious data that we have. We could do it in house with modeling and image classification using what we have on hand, the free imagery, and taking advantage of machine learning and geo artificial intelligence tools within our mapping programs. We'd have to balance that with all the other stuff we're doing.

And it's a good option, but there are other options that I think are better. If we wanted updated data now, like this year, we can contract it out. It would cost something like $16,000 based on one estimate that I got. But that would come with certain accuracy guarantees and it would be obviously a lot less work for us. Third option, probably the best is to collaborate with Orange County tax office.

As I said, they are in the middle of they've requested the proposal to be approved to work with EagleView, an aerial provider. If that's approved, they'll know I think next month and they could provide us with updated imagery and data by March. So couldn't wouldn't be useful now, but would be for next year potentially. So my recommendations would be if we want the latest, greatest, best data now, that's an option. We can contract that out.

It would cost something like 16,000. If we would rather wait, which I think if the rate study is going to be happening and we're going to potentially need get more information from that, and if Orange County works out, then that's I think a better option. So collaborating with them, they could provide that information to us and data potentially for free or small cost. It's unclear. They didn't they wouldn't let me know.

They couldn't let me know. Between now and then, I think regardless, we would establish our own procedures for trying to extract this data from using the tools that we have and the data that we have so that we would have that process in place regardless of the path we pursue. But by year three, we certainly would have it in place. So I was super fast because I know we're kind of behind schedule, but any questions about that?

You're right So on

thank you, Matt, for the presentation. Council members, are there questions or comments? I guess we would take it from Dylan and Matt at this time. I know Councilmember Frey and, okay, it looks like Palmer so far.

Right.

Take it easy.

Sorry.

This is

I know it.

Mr. Mr. Kirk, I wanted to start out by saying thank you for this presentation because it's clear that you have done this. You're super familiar with what a council is often interested in. You've catered to a lot of different levels of expertise in this and levels of interest in this.

Stormwater utility is a function of government that doesn't get nearly enough praise in terms of what they do. It's actually one of the divisions that I hear the most praise about from folks in Carrboro. Because somebody will say, yeah, there was this really bad storm, and I was starting to get worried. And then I realized that the stormwater crew was out there literally pulling blockages out of our culvert in the middle of a storm, Not just during ordinary storms, during Chantal. The homeowner assistance program is incredibly popular.

I know you're doing the staff is doing an enormous amount of town wide maintenance. It's actually the department that I end up calling the most because I'll be walking down the street and I'm like, I smell kerosene. Somebody's working on a reno and I think they've just drained that tank onto the sidewalk. And I was able to call up the department and say, hey, this is going on. What advice do you have? And let folks know about it. So just first wanted to start not to butter you up or anything, but it's an important department. And it's something that I pay a lot of attention to and I think a lot of my colleagues also pay a lot of attention to. So we try to punch above our weight for municipality in terms of how much retention we're paying to this issue.

Could I add word there? So buttering me up, do need to reflect that the fire department and our public work staff, I don't have an operational unit. The three individuals that work for me more of do assessments. And really our our public works crew are in fact, you know, everybody in the the entire town is really all hands on deck for storm operations, but really public works for fixing things, fixing municipal assets. I said that those funds don't really work together, but in our size of government, they do often.

Yeah. So Thank you for that correction. So I'll extend that also to the public works team as well. But just to note that we know that this is an important function. We hear a lot about this function from residents.

And not in the cut my rate sense, but in the what can we do more sense. So when I first started asking this question about the tiers in 2024, the initial response I got back was, we don't need any more money because there's nothing more we can we can't really see what we would do to expand our operations. Even if we wanted to, we don't have the GIS data to do it. We can't get more GIS data. And the lift to fix that would not be surmountable.

So I love to see that you have clearly gone through this in great detail, and you've thought through all of the options available. When I originally got that response, I sort of did what will happen if you set a council member loose on a problem and started trying to get clever about it. So feel free to interrupt me at the point where I go off from the statutory options. Well, self

self admittedly, you know, I'm, you know, the the folks that do the rate studies would be the experts on that. I've I've gone down the rabbit hole at this point enough to realize where the other municipalities that are doing this have gotten clever as well. So

That that's what I and that's that's where I'm hoping to get your your input, your professional input.

Yeah. Sometimes as a municipal employee, we're really the only ones with the knowledge of what's the difference. Mhmm. So in taking that charge personally and with great protective status is something I hold dear to my heart.

Okay. So the question I had then was, well, if we don't have good as, you know, built area estimates, And as you've pointed out statutorily, we need to use impervious surface as the basis for this. When I asked earlier about tax data, I wasn't asking about valuation data. I was asking about the fact that the tax office maintains first floor square footage numbers for every building. They use it as part of their tax calculation.

And because it connects directly to the accuracy of tax valuation, residents and property owners tend to correct it when it's wrong. So what I was wondering is, when I dug into that, was is there any kind of proxy number that we could, appropriately under statute use that we know would be impervious, that we know would be an underestimate of impervious so that we're not overcharging anyone, that would come from a data source that is free and publicly available without us having to update our GIS information. So that's where I was coming from when I originally sort of started pushing this idea.

Yeah. So using a data sense in which they've confirmed it would, I believe, be okay. You're gonna run into situations where people have split level houses or where a second floor is bigger than a first floor. Those exist out there, but in a much reduced you know, the I think I looked at the single floor single story versus two story houses. And and in our community, we have many, many single story homes in this area.

And so you need to be clear about that. It's not gonna be built upon upon built upon area upon the lot, but it's gonna be based on your actual building envelope. And so that information would be valid from the tax office and also within, I believe, within a generalization that that is impervious surface as that is defined.

Okay. The reason I went looking for that was because also the point that you raised as well, a good one, that if you use built upon area and you use GIS data that we don't believe is accurate, then you're setting yourself up to use a lot of staff time dealing with appeals and other things. So an estimate so a number that we can be very confident is impervious and is an underestimate is really good for that because, yes, you can appeal it. And we'll come out and measure your bolt upon area. And it's going to be larger than the 1st Floor.

Yes. People would yeah, that would be

You would not get

a lot of pieces of

because you're giving a fair a fair value.

Yes.

It also helps tie a little closer to the fact that while built upon area doesn't really scale economically, house size does a little bit better. It's still not a perfect, but it's a, you know, helpful.

Yes, I'm agreeing at this point, also I would like to explore that in the rate study and have those experts, you know, weigh in on why the pros and cons of that as well. I

really appreciate your presentation. I think you've sort of given us the tiers as is or switch to an ERU based approach. I would love to understand, are there options that would take that very easy to administer tier structure and use reliable data that we have on hand or can get, whether that is, as Matt was talking about, getting the existing data sets or working with the county or other options or using, at least temporarily as a proxy, the information that the tax office has right now about square footage. What I'm wondering is, is there something we can do to add more tiers in the shorter term so that we can make that structure more progressive without making it dramatically harder to administer?

Yeah. Tough tough question to answer. The reason that I shared the ERU model is it kinda just does away with the whole confusion around tiers. It's, you know, it's all scalable. And so you don't need to when you have tiers, people are always concerned. It's the same with taxes. What am I gonna do to bound you know, to to to, you know, drop down to the next tier? With the ERU system, you're just kind of, you know, scaling. So as far as simplicity and cleanliness, and then the the fights, if you have a tier, you know, we're gonna get more phone calls because people don't wanna be in that tier. They wanna be in lower tier. So with the ERU model and with a solid data source like you pointed out, there's there's no argument about it.

Okay. Makes sense. Is one of

the reasons why I'd come back again to the to the square footage because you might feel like you're in the wrong tier, but you can't really argue about how big your 1st 1st Floor is. Yeah. That's an

issue that the tax office would have to fix. Right. I mean. Okay.

So given given all of that, like my goal here is how do we dramatically expand the capacity of the storm water utility to be able to expand some of these programs that are working so well, like homeowner assistance, to be able to with the understanding that you would need a bond for any kind of like large projects, but to give you some more flexibility on the medium sized ones, to make it a little bit easier to make the math tie for a bond for a large project. Where I was sitting at I'll let my colleagues speak for themselves is we would actually really like to find out what operationally do you think you could do to improve stormwater conditions, including potentially large projects. And then how do we make sure that this process that you've laid out here with the rate study and with other options expands that capacity without burdening the folks who can least afford it and who contribute the least to the problem?

Yeah, so you're going to have to break up that question a little bit more That's for a little bit

more can for

probably try to jump in a little bit. Okay. Thank you, Councilmember Frey

for those

questions. I would well, there's several things. I mean, I think the homeowner assistance is something we can do immediately. That will come from the general fund because it can't come from the enterprise fund. So, will separate that out.

To your question about tiers, we've thrown out a few internal scenarios about tier. Even adding one more tier because 500 square feet to 6,000, that is huge, right? Even if you break that up into one more category, it still gives you enough margin of error likely for people not to be concerned. Now, I will say, Dillon, core value is not to add more tears. I think though, based on what Matt shared, what Dillon shared, we just need some opportunities internally to flush out what's really possible and what's legal.

And I do know there are communities that do drones and they just, you know, so there are other and this is cringing for Dylan. So, do want to acknowledge that. And so, we're trying to push the needle a little bit on being creative in reducing the burden on low income communities. We do have a zero to 500 that doesn't pay anything. And then maybe where it makes sense to increase the higher end, the 6,000 square foot impervious surface.

So, I think that we could reasonably measure in say even a four tier. Now, having a 12 tier would be just not feasible, right? So, you have to balance it and it would need some accuracy in exactly the square foot. But I think adding a tier or two could be reasonably feasible. The other thing is that in this current year budget, we've budgeted for the rate study.

So it's really just a matter of dealing just moving forward with a contract. It's due for that anyway. I think we built in some opportunities to look at the various rate potential, rate structure changes in this study. And if he starts now, in next fiscal year FY '27, we should have a reasonable study result that we can then start implementing something new. So it really will depend on how eager you all are to do something, but we it would take some internal maneuvering to really flush out with legal's input what can we do immediately if that's the goal.

If not, we can just look through to the the rate study. Now, will it yield a significant amount of additional funding if we create additional tier at, say, 200 for the 6,000 square feet and higher impervious surface? It'll give us some revenue for the internal projects, but not the large scale stormwater projects that are really necessary. So this is why the idea of the bond was brought up. A potential bond referendum in the future, which would probably coincide with Amy's Office for Climate Resiliency in some way.

And we would package it that way probably in 2028, FY '28, to the community for those big dollars.

Thank you, madam. Thank you, One madam quick follow-up question. I wasn't I was talking about the not not assistance in relief of the storm water bill, but the

Residential assistance program?

Yes. Does that come out of the storm water utility budget or is that general fund?

So just to give everyone an update on the residential assistance program, the manager has authorized us to move forward with the program. We have and storm water advisory commission has already approved this. They've reviewed the projects. We're moving forward with four potential residents and their projects, and those contracts should be signed shortly in the next couple weeks. We kinda had to work through some internal discussions with our our legal department and have come to a place where we think we can implement it, the same as the r three program and the same as Raleigh.

So, you know, those are the only two programs that would be funding these this way is what I understand. And for perspective, I think the last time I talked with Raleigh, they're up over a million dollars. Now we we don't have their funding sources, but it's good for them to set the path forward and us to work through the logic of how this all works. So hopefully, others will follow us.

Manager Tony, could you clarify? Is that so that work, is that general fund or is that

It is through the storm water utility.

Okay. So that's what I was talking about expanding, not the general fund project that we were talking about. Okay. Yeah, I think broadly speaking, Mr. Kirk, you sort of came to us with caution, I think, with sort of prior experience of counsels wanting to not getting it or wanting to reduce the scope of the department.

And we're sort of sitting here saying, no, this is an incredibly popular department, incredibly popular projects. And I personally would like to make sure that we can get you the resources you need to do what you whatever what do you think the the department is able to do to help address stormwater at scale in Carrboro?

Well, I really appreciate that. I think I guess it's my sort of philosophy is and I think you you've highlighted this, you know, at some point, these larger municipalities are gonna realize that really working with private lands is essential for them to accomplish their their goals. You know, we can do projects on town property, and, you know, that's what we have available to us. But at some point, you need that other side to to help help contribute and help reduce those very detrimental impacts from that storm water volume and the pollutants that they're creating.

We've also seen this come up in our conversations around the UDO where we talked about having categorizations for something like a regional a regional storm water utility to provide other incentives for private property owners to build facilities that would benefit others.

Yes. I'm familiar with other places in the country, primarily around the Chicago area where there are regional utilities, so similar to what Owasso would be working on. I think what what you will see in that effort is the Jordan rule like rules rewrite. There are funding implication implications with that as well, and we should be seeing something from DEQ in 2027 as well.

Alright. Thank you very much for the care you've put into this. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

And thank counsel for the position to you all authorize the what was it called? Residential stormwater management.

Yeah. To just to thank my staff. So the residential assistance coordinator is Cassie Pettit. She's done an amazing job reaching out to our residents, being a, you know, in person, someone on someone's individual property, accessible, reachable. And I'd like to thank my other my other two staff members, Debbie Schofner and Heather Holley. You know, we all pitch in for stormwater, and I really barely get out behind the desk. So they are really the access to the public.

Thank you. So I I wanna start by echoing my colleague that I really appreciate the presentation and the work that went into it, and I I appreciate that stormwater is a discipline where there's even some specialization within it. People get master's degrees, terminal degrees. And we have an above average percentage of our town that approaches it as an avocation. And so I want to start by recognizing that I am not an expert in this.

Right? I have done plenty of reading of materials based on the packet. But, like, my my level of understanding is if you're watching this after the fact on the YouTube, you could pause here and go look at a fellow by the name of Grady Hillhouse as a YouTube series called Practical Engineering, and he's done one recently on storm water. That's my level of understanding. That's like kid oriented.

Right? So so starting from that, I know enough to know that that I don't know a lot. But I would I would like to understand, you know, given our our pillars, race equity, climate action, how are stormwater projects prioritized broadly?

Yeah. So just as a general sense for capital improvements. So we've we started the utility in twenty seventeen twenty seventeen. And so for capital improvements, you kinda have to build up that fund. Most of the successful programs, they actually start their storm water programs and then don't actually do a bunch for at least a decade.

So that's kind of in the space that we're at. We've done some culvert replacements, some storm drain system replacements. And and just to point out, you know, I I joined the town in July 2024, so my my predecessor has prioritized. The last project that he sort of prioritized with the was the fire station bioretention cell that we should be starting with shortly. And so really, I look at the rate study as an opportunity to prioritize those.

Some of the efforts that I sort of put my mindset behind are some of those storm water control measures when we do have available space. Anything that we can control kind of up above a stream is better. You know, if if you're working in a stream, one, that's incredibly costly. And then two, you're already sort of below the problem area. So you need to work above where a stream is already formed.

So our municipality is fortunate that that someone, council members like yourselves, had the forethought to preserve our ephemeral streams in this community. As I alluded to before, many of the very urban spaces, they never had a shot. They were developed way before, you know, this sort of utility existed. And and just to kinda speak on this, this is only a forty year old kinda concept. Know, people you know, we have subdivisions around town.

You know, when they designed those, they didn't know what storm you know, they didn't recognize what stormwater is. And so my hands are kinda tied statutorily to deal with those neighborhoods. But they're the ones that are suffering the most because they don't have these, you know, post construction stormwater control measures, a pond or a buyer retention cell. And, like, really, they need those there or they need to be put into regional devices, which the town would would essentially have to build. There's no there's no space. And and space is the issue. So, again, I think you're well aware. Our right of ways are very tight. We look for areas of opportunity, town owned land. That's half the cost on a lot of these things is, you know, just space.

So and then always keeping enough money in case there is a problem in our community. You know, pipe is no longer functional. We need to fix that. That is we're in a very reactive state right now, and we need to kinda get on board to replacing some of our older dated infrastructure. And that's really you know, you all asked me if we were funded enough. That's a that's something that everybody struggles with, all the communities. Very reactive. And, you know, we don't wanna burden our our residents, but we also don't wanna wait around for these emergencies because when you have an emergency, it's much more costly to fix that problem. So hopefully, answers or That gets the

part of

was great. And and so part of your answer is the regional I'm gonna hook on the regional device. Would that be an example of a thing that we would probably need to be bonded that's a larger thing?

Not necessarily. It would decide you know? So when I think about bonding, I think about municipal asset. And the most common thing would be if you ever been to Charlotte, they do stream restorations and they put a green ray trail right next to it. You know, usually, those things kinda go together. But they're at a point where their streams are so wrecked, you know, you're looking up at them when you when you're inside of those streams. So we would get there. We will get there eventually if we don't deal with the volume control coming off of our our community. There are already bad place Morgan Creek, for example, that's kind of a bad, you know, the volume of water coming through there is pretty intense, obviously, from our facility.

And then I guess my my last one that I would toss in here is then you you alluded to this. And and and to back up again, when I sent my email to the staff, I I did say, and I will repeat for for everyone, I don't think I've smiled as much reading a packet and any of my time on on counsel. It's no. This is this is really great. This really feels like it matches our our priorities, our identity.

We're going in the right direction. I'm really, really happy about this. But so to one of the reasons I was smiling was one of the consent agenda items, which was a admittedly, this is a grant application. This is not money in hand, but this is us pursuing a tree inventory and a and a plan for succession for street trees and tree canopy. And and I'm naturally thinking about how these things can intersect as you as you mentioned, because trees can act as a as an important stormwater feature. So you you already partially answered this in your presentation saying that they can grow roots into our our systems. Are are there on the positive side? Is there anything that we should keep in mind as we approach UDO maybe in terms of how do these things intersect?

So I just pulled back up this slide that, you know, I sort of began with the 27,000 gallons of storm water generation on an imprudent lot. The counter of that is a forested acre, which there's very minimal storm water generated on that. So I understand as a municipality, have trade offs. You know, people wanna build stuff around here. That's okay with me. There are repercussions to that development. And so I think y'all as a council are very aware of those repercussions. You know, some places, they don't they don't care about this at all. So good to hear good to hear you, you know, acknowledge it. I think from a sustainability perspective, there are there are multiple reasons why to put trees up and why to encourage people to plant trees in their yards.

As far as storm water, the roots are the main issue. So making sure that, you know, it's the same with kind of utility line. You don't wanna plant a tree under a power line. It's just gonna grow up and, you know, cause a problem for, you know, the power company. So it's it's the same. We need offset away from the pipes, but, you know, there are specific designs for facilities where it's good it's good to incorporate trees in those facilities, and it would be encouraged. So really, we base that on state guidance from the storm water control manual. So hopefully that answers your question.

Okay. So it looks like there are no more questions or comments. Dylan, I did have one question. We talk about climate and sustainability and also equity. And so was kind of wondering why there aren't pocket questions with this particular item. I know that I do use them. I find they have great value. And so this item looks like one that would be a good candidate for pocket questions, but I didn't see any.

Yes. So I guess in my understanding, as an informational item, it doesn't require the pocket questions. And I would love to provide them, but I was still working on this presentation to try to wrap it up for counsel here. So that's, you

know You said because it's an information item?

Yeah. Yes, ma'am.

Oh, okay. Thank you.

So there yep.

I guess that's nobody? Thank you, Dylan. And Matt?

If you would like me to make pocket questions for this topic, I'd be happy to do so.

Oh, I mean, that happens on the staff side. I just noticed that there weren't any there. And, you know, this item is stormwater. It involves climate, sustainability, and equity, and so was a little surprised not to see them. But however that's worked out on the staff side, it's fine. Thank you. Time manager Tony, I believe we're at the last item.

Thank you for the time tonight.

Uh-huh, thank you, Dylan.

Last item is

Board

appointments by our town clerk Lamar Joyner.

All right, thank you, town manager.

Good evening, council and madam mayor. We have a few suggested appointments for Housing and Human Services Advisory Commission as well as the climate and environmental advisory commission. I think there were oh, I know there were some emails sent out with information on applications, recommendations, and things of that nature. We do have Amy if you have any questions about the climate and environmental advisory commission, if you have additional questions that weren't answered by email. And I think Anne Marie tried to answer some questions about the Housing and Human Services Advisory Commission.

If I can assist with any questions, I will gladly do so as well. So I will turn it over to the mayor.

Alright. Thank you, mister Joyner. So it's my understanding, council members, that both of these, advisory commissions, would have quorum issues if we, did not, do the appointments, tonight. And so it looks like, we have Housing and Human Services Advisory Commission for two appointments. And I was wondering if there were names that rose to the top to be recommended in a motion.

And real quickly, if I if I may. I'm sorry. I forgot to let you know that on your sheet, it has that Imani Williams Oh, would be the affordable housing seat, and that was initially sent that that would be the case. But I think Anne Marie said it would be more valuable if she was recommended for the human services seat, just the notation there, if it wouldn't be for the affordable housing seat.

And that would be the human services expert? I'm sorry, human service expert?

Correct.

Okay. And not the affordable housing expert. So that seat remains vacant?

Well, I think both seats remain vacant at this time. If y'all were to make the appointment, that would

No. I'm saying the affordable housing expert seat, so there would not be anybody here to fill that seat. Is that correct?

At this yes. At this point, there is both of those seats are empty. If we were to appoint anybody for that seat, Imani Williams would be best suited for the human services seat.

And not the affordable housing expert.

Okay. By the way, Ann Marie did just walk through the door, so she is available as well.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Joyner. I got all my questions answered, I believe, via email. I'm not sure council members have any more questions. And so I'm going back to my question about a motion on some names, or if we need to have some discussion. Council members.

Madam Mayor, whenever appropriate, I would like

to move two people. All right. Believe it is appropriate. Don't Sandy Hands.

All right. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'd like to move that we appoint two recommended folks, Lori and Imani, to this council.

There is a motion for Lori Carter and Imani Williams to be appointed to Housing and Human Services Advisory Commission. Is there a second? Second. Thank you so much. Any further discussion about two names? Okay. So all in favor to appoint Lori Carter and Imani Williams to the Housing and Human Services Advisory Commission, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries seven-zero.

That is Housing and Human Services. The next one we have is Climate and Environmental Advisory Commission. I think it's the same setup with quorum issues there. And so I would entertain a motion. There are three appointments here. So I would entertain a motion on names for the three appointments, unless we need to discuss any of the applicants.

Madam Mayor, I would move that we appoint Daryl Carpenter, Lydia Vaughan, and Alyssa Paul, the latter of whom would be the youth seat, the Climate and Environmental Advisory Commission.

All right. Thank you so much. Council member now. All right. So it's been moved and properly seconded that we appoint Daryl Carter, Lydia Von, Alisa Paul. We'll go to the youth seat. So if there's no further discussion, council members. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed?

Motion carries, seven-zero. And that is our board appointments this evening, and so we're finished with that. And so before I entertain a motion to go into closed session for attorney client privilege, Council members, we do need to give some direction to town manager Tony as it relates to the potential pilot for the East Weaver Street closure. It is my understanding, council members, that we would like to put a pause on that for right now, for feedback, other options, engagement, whatever direction that we want to give to the town manager for this matter. I would like for this to happen in a motion and so that we can vote on that.

And certainly, if there is more direction or something more that you want added to the motion, please say so now. The core of the motion is, though, to pause the pilot for the East Weaver Street closure.

Madam Mayor, if I may, in light of what we have recently learned about the project and that we need to do some further outreach to a variety of communities, I wanted to just start by thanking the staff for the quality of their work on this because that execution plan is not going anywhere. We still have that available to us when we feel that we are ready to take this up again.

Correct.

But Madam Mayor, would like to move that we direct the town manager to pause the implementation of the Weaver Street pilot closure for one year to bring it back to us at that time so that we can decide whether we are ready to proceed then.

And if I may, I would like to amend your motion to also include some specific directives on reaching out and having some more conversations with all of the business owners that will be impacted by this move, possibly some surveys around the customers that are coming into this space, if there's some way that we can capture that information. And primarily addressing the issues that have come up around delivery, around parking, around security, safety, all that fun stuff. And in addition, I would also like us to take a look at what is currently happening on East Main Street with delivery trucks already stopping there when it's not supposed to be and how much of that is a problem and what we can do in the meantime to address that. As we look at some of the traffic concerns, I am very much on the same line of we're gonna have to deal with this holistically. Let's deal with it holistically, both with the town actions and the current actions that are happening that will cause some traffic issues.

Mayor Prochaim, I'm happy to accept a friendly amendment. Could I ask you to sort of

Bring it in.

Bring it in a little bit?

Yes. Again, apologies, Councilman Frey. So I would amend your motion to add directive to the staff to engage with business owners that will be fully impacted on this, specifically on their main concerns around delivery traffic and customer safety. I would like some kind of engagement with customers in the area to understand how or if they would utilize the space in some way, shape, or form. And I also would like the staff to take a look at what is currently happening on that stretch of on the East sorry, on the West Main Side, on the Main Street side with current delivery trucks not adhering to current rules that is causing traffic issues.

So when we see this in a year from now, we have all of this information to take into consideration.

Can we frame that as direction to the manager rather than to Yes. The So with that tweak, would be happy to accept your friendly amendment.

Thank you. My apologies to the manager. And I will second the motion.

So I want to before we take the vote, I want to appreciate Councilmembers Frey, Posada, Orozco, and the rest of my colleagues, as well as town staff. You know, we've come this far with this idea, and we realized that, you know, we need to do a little bit more work. And so we're just going take a pause with the pilot and gather information. I am not sure that there are other options that we may want to look at as far as location, which could be something else that I probably would want to to add to this motion. So maybe it's not, East Weaver Street, you know, that we look at, maybe looking at other locations, in town, and I would like to add that to the direction.

Are we capturing? Did we get all of that? It was quite a bit. And council members, are we clear on what we're hearing, for? And is there anything else to add? I see councilmember Paul.

Just for the formalities, I will also accept that friendly amendment.

Alright. Thank you so much, councilmember Frank.

I I just I I wanna make sure. So the work that we have received to date, from my understanding, one of the core things that was gonna happen from the last presentation that we saw on this was engineering work to address light timings at a complicated and frustrating intersection that would potentially have addressed some of the valid concerns that we have heard. And so I I don't I don't know that I'm altering anything or asking for any sort of amendment to the motion, but I want to make sure that that that work happens in a timely fashion, that that we don't end up losing that because we're punting by a year. Because I think that that OpenStreet, for example, is not going away. Right.

We we do intend to honor requests under our current framework where we have street closures. And some of the concerns that we have heard stem from impacts on those days. And we can improve things. We can do that process better as a separate matter from this pilot that was under discussion. And I don't want us to lose out on that potential benefit. And so some of the negative feedback that we've gotten, I I think that we can actually build in goodwill by continuing that work. Am I explaining myself well?

Uh-huh. Okay. Is that part I don't think Are you accepting that as you're wanting that to don't be

think you're

trying to amend it, but I guess, if I may, manager Tony, do you have any any thoughts to share with us here on there's a point that this intersection we're pausing the closure for some very specific reasons. That intersection doesn't get better in the meantime.

I wanna do some work there.

What direction do you need from us around that?

The engineer services cost. I would definitely have to come back with a budget amendment for that. We would have to see if for our regularly scheduled programming for street closures, fourth of July, open streets, so forth, that the engineer could in fact do the weekend sporadically. Right? And so that's what I would just need to confirm. And then we would need to just see what the resources and the cost would be.

As collected, yes. Okay. I want to just check. Mayor Pertem Posad Orozco, you had seconded. Are you still seconding the amended? No. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

So council members, we do have a motion and a second about the pause for the East Weaver Street closure. And we have a time frame on that as part of the motion for a year, as Councilmember Frey said, along with all of the amendments from myself, Councilmember Posada Orozco, and Councilmember Palmer. So if there is no further discussion, council members, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries, seven-zero. Thank you. Oh, now we need a motion to go into closed session, attorney client privilege.

Madam Mayor, move that we close new go to closed session.

Question. Can we have five minutes before we

Oh, yeah. We'll have that. We won't go directly in. They got a

And is there a vote or not coming out? I second second the motion. Sorry.

Okay. So we have a motion and a second to go in the closed session. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right. And close this.

Mayor, if I may, will you just, let the public know and anybody watching if there is a need to come back for any vote after the closed session?

Think we'll need one. I think so. I feel like that's information information and no vote.

Okay.

Pretty sure that

Thank you.

So they can roll on. Yes. It takes five minutes or so, guys. Gotta get somewhere.