Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

All right, good evening, big crowd here tonight. Welcome to the May 26th Zoning Board of Appeals meeting for the Town of Carmel. Board members' names are in front of you on the dais. We have Ed Spadaro, our new code enforcement officer, and our exiting code enforcement officer, Mike Carnazza, with us tonight, as well as Town Council Greg Fulcetti. The way we operate is we'll hear the case. I'll swear you in. You present your case to us. We'll poll the board for questions and comments, and then we'll open it up to the public for any questions and comments. I don't think anyone's in here, so I won't mention about signing in. Even if you just did? No, we'll sign in when public, just sign on that podium, but we don't have to talk about it since there's nobody here. So will you all please stand and join me for the Pledge of Allegiance?

for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

All please remain standing. I have to mention and thank Mike Carnazza for his many, many years of service and being a friend, a mentor, and just a great person for this board and this town. I'd like to give Mike a round of applause for all his hard work. I've been on the board for 25 some odd years. Mike's always been there for us and guiding us. And, uh, thank you, Mike, for all your guidance and friendship. Good luck to you and your retirement endeavors.

You will be missed.

All right. Um, we're going to go out of order this evening because, uh, the second case or third case is, uh, looking to get home early. It sounds like so for obvious reasons. Um, so with that, We'll take application number three, Michelle Montero, 114 Old Route 6, Realty, LLC. And that's for a variation of section 156-9, seeking an interpretation regarding previous variance granted to allow Marshall Art Studio. Now wants to convert a daycare center. The property's located at 114 Old Route 6, Carmel, New York, and it's tax map 55.12-2-6. So the code requires or allows one acre. What's provided is .98 acres and a variance of .02 would be sought. And then the code requires outdoor play space What would be provided is indoor only play space, and the variance being needed would be to allow indoor space for play space. So bear in mind, everyone, that this is for an interpretation, correct? So good evening.

Hello.

Just give me a second. Turn the mic down to your mouth so we can hear you. It's being recorded for minutes.

Can you hear me?

And speak clearly and distinctly, if you would, please. No problem. Raise your right hand. State your name and address for the record for us. Sorry. Sorry.

Michelle Montero, 114 Old Route 6, Carmel 10512.

Keep your hand up, sorry. Swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God. Yes. Okay, thank you. All right, tell us what you're looking to do here. I guess this is existing as a martial arts studio, right?

Right now it exists, half of the building exists as a martial arts studio. They're leaving. Their lease ends June 30th. I have a new tenant who, somebody who would like to become a new tenant. They would like to bring in a daycare space, children's daycare into there, but just want to use, they just want indoor space, not outdoors.

All right, so you're the owner of the building, correct? Okay, and you're representing a potential tenant to come in for that space? Yes. Okay. I don't know what the code reads, Mike, maybe if you find that section about outdoor space, but I do think it is very essential for children and the development of children, so it might be kind of a tough one here, but let's see what it reads as, Mike, if you would. Sorry to put you on the spot. I should have mentioned it before.

No, let's make them work as last night.

So how big is the space? It's how many square feet?

The their side or the whole building?

Well, the potential side, the tenant that's looking to...

The potential their side is... I'm sorry. My brain's all scrambled right now. I think it's a little less than $4,000. $3,000 something.

Okay, which is not too bad for a daycare center.

Yeah, it's a decent size. It's not... Yeah, I'm sorry.

I don't know why I don't have it written here. But it's not... It's not a small space.

Well, the drawings that you submitted, is that what's proposed or what's existing? That's what's existing right now. Okay. So what changes?

And that's brand new, nothing. They're not changing anything. They don't want to change anything.

So they're going to, they would potentially use the same layout as it is. The exact same thing. Like nap rooms and like infant rooms are separate from toddlers and.

There's already rooms existing, so he said he wouldn't change anything about the layout of the building, of his space, excuse me.

And is this someone who currently has daycare centers that's looking to expand?

Yes, I believe he has two at the moment, two or three at the moment.

In the area?

I think they're in the Bronx and Queens. Okay.

Yeah. And do you know if those spaces currently have outdoor space?

He said, we don't take them outside because the Bronx is a little. So I didn't really press him too much on that. He just said, we don't really take them outside. And I said, okay.

All right. I mean, it's. That's my only issue is the outdoor space. I mean, the acreage is very minimal of a variance.

So this is really two parts. This is an interpretation to make sure that the use is still acceptable, and then it's the two variances, right? Is that what we're looking at here?

So what happened is you interpreted that they could do the martial arts. The martial arts operated as a camp. Okay, so all summer long they had children in and out. I think they bussed them themselves too, didn't they? Yes, they were outside in and outside the whole time. I mean, it was all day after school programs. Everything was going on there, but it wasn't a true daycare center. It was a martial arts place with the aftercare and other things attached to it. So it never came in front of the board. The code now changed. It's no longer... permitted so I just want to make sure that I would my thing was is it similar to the to the what you call that was there before that's what I would that why they're really here now the outdoor play space it says it has to be at least 200 square feet of outdoor play space per child with the minimum play space of a thousand square feet so if you have five kids you need a thousand square feet you have four you still need a thousand square feet but right so can can any space be created for outdoor

Yes, it can, but I think there was an issue when we spoke, Mike, right, that it couldn't be.

It's a dog daycare as well next door, and I think that they were concerned about the crossover between dogs and kids. I don't know how the child services or child and family services, I think it's the OCFS. I don't know how they would feel with the dog daycare. human crossover on the outside. I'm not sure how that works.

Well, I mean, it could be a fenced-in type of space.

It's fully fenced-in right now. For dogs, though. For dogs.

No, but I mean, if you created a space for the children, right, could that be done on another side of the building, away from where the dog pen or fenced-in? 100%. So I don't see who would have jurisdiction over that, the health department.

No, it would be us. So if you say that you want it there, deny the variance, they have to put it in, then they can do it. It's up to the board. Well, I think she still needs the variance for the .2. Agreed. No, no, agreed. But I'm saying that part of the variance, if you deny it, then they would need to do it.

So could that open up another can of worms with a variance of setbacks or something of the space they're creating or no?

It doesn't say there's a setback to it.

Okay.

The play space, she'll be looking in the rear or side yard.

And there's room for it. Okay.

So where is that fenced in space right now? Right beyond the building. Can I come over there? Yeah, absolutely.

Do you want to grab the microphone? No, no, we'll give it to you.

I don't want you to keep the thing back and forth.

Sorry about that.

Do you see behind these? You can't see it, but that's the fence. Do you see the little lining right there? Yeah.

That's the outdoor space right there. And where on the building is that? It's pretty much rectangular. So this is the back. So if you're facing the back of the building, that's facing that.

Yes.

And that's for the dogs?

No, no. This is the martial arts center. I am the front of the building. I am the dog daycare. We have to let them out. They go out a door, and they run to the back normally, into the backyard.

The bad part is this says it has to be 50 feet away from the property line. 50 feet away. Not going to do it, because you're 100 feet wide, aren't you? The property?

I'm sorry?

The property is 100 feet wide.

Yeah, we had.

That doesn't leave much in the middle. I should leave nothing in the middle.

And I can't build a play space for them right out of their door? Because it's in front of the building? It's the back of the building. Like if they open their door and I built just a little outdoor area for them, can I do that?

For the dogs you're talking about. No, no. For the kids.

I'm sorry. I know they're both daycares at this point. They're both daycares.

They all need care, whether they're dogs or children.

So the dogs have, in Nogginwood, never been near the children of UMAC, ever. It's fully fenced in. It's a six-foot fence. It's blocked out. They don't go near them. But they ran as a camp, right? This is going to be a daycare center.

What I'm saying is, I mean, I've seen daycare centers that have a fenced-in play area with fake grass and swings. That's what she's asking.

And I'm... Oh, yeah.

Mike, is that... I don't know what the length of the building is.

She was asking if she could put it off the back, if she made an opening off the back of...

So, like, if you open their door... She's got to be able to meet the setbacks that are required, 50 feet from any lot line.

Okay. But this will have to go to the planning board for a site plan if they get the interpretation that it's allowed. So, I mean, if there's a variance that you're not going to be able to get up front, you may have to get it afterwards once we find out exactly what you're doing.

I just fear if we do this for you and, you know, it's Pandora's box and every daycare center is going to try to go against the code. I think it's essential, personally, for children, especially up here in the suburbs, maybe not the Bronx, but to have exposure to outside space. Like I said, I don't have an issue building it.

I'm fine to build it if it was approved that I could build it.

I think cart before the horse. I think maybe you should look and evaluate your options before we make an interpretation. I don't know if you have a timeline that's critical for a potential tenant. Agreed. He's on his way.

A month.

Would that impact parking, though, Joe? It would take away some, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point, but.

The thing about both of our businesses, the parents drop them off.

I know, but that opens up, this is what Claudine was saying before. If we start to do this, then we're opening up Pandora's box because then variants of the setbacks, the variants of parking spaces, there's going to be, there's going to be a cascading chain effect there. Yeah, that's all. Cause I'm looking at the lot right now. You know,

The problem is the town made it BP, zoning district, which was lead industrial before. It doesn't, I mean, it's lead industry, wholesale, warehouse use, research labs, data processing, business and professional office, restaurant, self-storage warehouse, entertainment, fitness facility, trade or vocational school, landscape material yards. metalworking, laundry and dry cleaning plants, fuel storage, public utility, vet hospital, animal kennel, craft beverage, hotel, and indoor pistol range.

I think it's easier to give a variance for parking issues in light of the nature of the businesses compared to allowing for no outdoor space.

But this becomes a use variance, correct? Because it's none of those uses.

Oh. That's the problem. They already have an existing use. That's what we were trying to see if it was within that.

So they want to ride along the existing... Camp or daycare?

Two different things, camp and daycare.

They are, but close. It's just that the change of the code, this is where it affects specific properties. Right next door is a car wash. Not allowed anywhere. So if anything wants to be done there, they need a use variance to do anything. Next door to that is... Bruce Douglas is fine, so they would be fine. But, you know, this is the problem when you rezone things.

Things get squeezed. And then they change.

Somebody leaves a tenancy. You have to find the same karate school to go in there. That's not going to happen.

You have a whole list of things that it could be. You just set a whole list of things.

No, understood, but it's a totally – every one of them is totally different from a karate school is all I'm trying to say. The only thing that would fit in there is a pistol range. Everything else, metalworking, it's an indoor space, it's not a garage. You know what I mean? There's a lot of things that don't make sense, but either way.

The code had to be created generically. They couldn't pinpoint and target everything. Correct.

Our old code used to say day camps and daycare together. Now they're separated out into two separate things. So that's all. It's just a tough situation for an owner of a building that got somebody leaving at the wrong time.

Michelle, what would be the total number of children that would be there in one point of the day?

When we spoke, I think we looked it up together, the maximum amount of children that it would allow was 28. When I told them that, they said absolutely fine and giggled, so I'm assuming it's going to be 28 or less.

You're right. It's going to be 15.

Is this picture the overall layout of the entire space?

of that area, yes.

So could you just explain to me what everything is? What this, because I see a matted area. Is that this?

Would you like me to come over there?

Yeah, please.

You could take that microphone off and bring it with you. There you go.

Looks like napping space, maybe? I don't know.

We're making her get her exercise tonight. I know. That's okay.

Yes, so the, what is this? You said which one was the matted space? This. This is, so they have two matted spaces. They have one downstairs, one upstairs. So this is the downstairs layout. It's right when you walk in. It's like the front desk is right there. And then right off to the left is a little matted area. Matted, it's the martial arts kids. So it's like a spongy mat. And then off to the right is like a little area with benches that they would do their homework after school or during camp, whatnot. They also have another little room off of that. It's like cubbies, kind of little lockers for the kids. And then upstairs, it's another big area. And it's also a matted space. But downstairs, sorry, also there is two bathrooms as well.

And how many children could be there at once?

The maximum amount is 28.

28? Yes. Would 1,000 square feet of space outside account for that, too? Or just needs to be a minimum of 1,000 square feet on the outside? 200 square feet per track?

So 28 times 250, 600 square feet?

But you need 1,000, you said, right? Minimum. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That would suffice, right?

No, minimum of 1,000. They need 5,600. 5,600.

Oh, 5,600.

Which is... That's a good amount of space. 10 parking spots.

For outdoor space. Yeah, for outdoor space.

40 parking spots.

5,600.

They'd need 5,600 square foot of space outside.

Yeah. I'm just trying to figure if you have that ability.

All 28 wouldn't be outside at the same time.

Yeah, but the code is the code.

That's the problem. Do you need me right here?

Here's something crazy. Just a thought. I know it's kind of a flat roof, but is there a potential to put something, you know, you'd build another space on the roof to accommodate?

Parts of it are, parts of it aren't. I don't know that they would, I mean, I would have to ask if they would even want to do that.

From an engineering standpoint, could it support the work?

Again, just thinking out loud. no I'm asking I'm not because you're not then you're not affecting parking space but you know look at it's outside space is what it is you're gonna put something I got what you're doing either you know to protect the kids from the sun to a certain degree anyway outside but no I I appreciate the effort I get what you're saying do you know if OCFS requires outdoor space

Office of Children and Family Services or whatever it's called.

No, we talked about it last time. I think that's the whole reason I came is they do, but we were talking because UMAC didn't have it.

But they weren't under OCFS. They were under the health department because they were a camp. Right. I think they do require it. That's the jurisdictional differences.

But it was different counties because the – It should be a state.

OCFS is a state agency. I don't I'm not I remember that we talked about it and I remember it was like a thing Yonkers takes all of Westchester Putnam I believe it is part of Dutchess and then it goes up to Albany down there's a whole bunch of different uh districts so um I don't know what their rules are so I even if you gave them a variance for I don't know if they would be able to do it through OCFS you'd have to check with them I can give him a call

Essentially, he obviously is not gonna move forward unless this happens.

Under the New York State Office of Children and Family Services, all licensed and registered child care programs are required to provide daily supervised outdoor play. So it doesn't say what to do, but it says that supervised outdoor play is mandatory for all children in care. It must occur daily except for extreme or inclement weather or if otherwise ordered by a child's health care provider.

But it doesn't say it has to be fenced in.

Well, you have to have it fenced in.

Yeah.

Is there a way to give her some trailer that she would be able to go there if she went to the planning board And that space

if she could get planning board approval and meet some of these requirements is there any way to get some sort of yeah but if we interpret it positively then you know does that hold true agree no no and that's what i'm saying i'm not trying to be difficult i'm trying to think of a case that comes in front of us you know because it has to like you said it has to go planning so if it has to go planning we're gonna have to show all of these requirements from the code um it just it was it was

shot in the dark because of the type of use that was there before so i think maybe we hold over let you do a little more homework right of what would be required from the state or uh county requirements do a little more homework in that sense before we can make an interpretation but the roof can be considered outdoor space I get that, but that's an expensive endeavor to make that structural walled off and safe.

So what's to say I can't share the backyard with them? My dogs only go out three hours a day.

Well, I think it would have to be 50 feet apart by the code, right?

From the property line.

From the property line, yes. Oh, from the property line.

The outdoor space has to be 50 feet from each of the property lines and 100 feet from a house. There's no houses there.

No, there's not. That backyard was already there. I'm saying there's no houses that you have to set up. No, no, no. That backyard was already there when I bought the building. Why can't I just share that space with them? Our dogs only go out from between the hours of 11 and 3, especially on days when the weather is terrible. When I mentioned it to him, he was like, I don't mind. We would only take them out before 11 or after 3.

How are you going to keep the area clean? I know, but I don't know that as a matter of fact. Oh, no, no, I completely understand. No, no, no, I understand that. I understand that.

I spoke to him about it, and I said, if that's the case, we'd have to come up with some type of cleaning plan.

Well, we're talking about two potential different areas, though, as well, right? Of course, I prefer the... The child care proposed would be on the opposite end of the building. Yes. If you could create an outdoor area that's 50 feet away from that, you might need to, like, consult with an architect or an engineer or somebody to give you some guidance. We could maybe give you... I would see us being easier to give you a variance for 20 feet for that setback as opposed to the whole...

I mean, if it's 50 feet from that back of the building, there's more than 50 feet there. But not for 5,600 square feet.

There could be. There could be. You'd have to look. It could be rectangular. It could be oblong. It could be different configuration altogether.

Or we could provide an area variance there.

The outdoor area has to be bigger than the indoor area?

Sorry, Mike. The outdoor space has to be 5,600 square feet?

Unless we provide a variance.

28 kids times 200 is.

unless she also minimizes the number of what water attendants allowed to do, maybe 20 kids. And we limit it based on that. It's a lot easier to give you a variance of area variance as opposed to use variance. Use variance, you need to comply with all criteria, including not self-created, and you have to show numbers of why it's a burden on you.

Yeah, but John, I think we're going to use variance regardless because the code changed. think we're stuck i mean the fact that the town changed the code and that's no longer permitted use i don't know how we do it and it wasn't it was not an existing use that's the issue so if it was a daycare and they changed it they were making it bigger or something that would be different than a whole new use going in because if if it was apples to apples we wouldn't even need the interpretation we could have probably gone with the last decision of the board the code change totally messed this up

All right, so I know this is a tough one. I would say we maybe do a little more homework, right? We can hold this over. We can hold it over another month or two if we needed to to help you out, but I think you have to do some consulting.

Okay, so you want me to find out if I can build the 50 feet past the building?

Well, first of all, it's not a permitted use as per the new code. Right? So that's a whole bigger.

So you're going to have to go for a youth fair. Yeah.

Meaning to change it to you guys allow it to be a daycare center.

You're going to have to show financial hardship. Yeah. That's the key. Yeah. You're going to have to show financial hardship. And I think you have a compelling case, right, because you have a tenant that's leaving. The space is empty. You're losing money on the space. Right.

And based on the type of space that it was, you kind of have a good case because it's a similar type of use for children and play, you know, activity type of situation, I would think. I'm not speaking for every board member, but my opinion. Mike's going to be here in a moment. I'm going to miss you so much.

You have your phone on you?

Yes, I do. Do you want to sit? No, it's okay. We can talk to you while you sit. It's okay. Don't worry. I know. Sit and talk to us.

It's okay. You can sit and talk. It's fine. It's okay.

Yes.

Take a picture of 1, 2, 3, 4. And that's what you're going to have to show us here for a use variance to...

So that means I come before you guys again.

Have you had any other people interested in the property? I'm sorry, say that again? Have you had any other people interested?

All daycare centers. All daycare centers, nobody else?

Note that in your application.

It's either something with children, something to do with children. I had one person come in wanting it to be a musical center. I don't know how that would do with the dogs. I was very honest about that. That's his choice. Either way, it's children, and it was some type of camp situation. It was an after-school program. They would be outside. They would be doing whatnot outside. Or it was a daycare center, whatever. Because of the nature of the dogs, they're loud. I get it. You can't really put anything else in there. You can't have a quiet...

I listen to the martial arts center.

The martial arts are just as loud. Those kids are just as loud.

How long have you been looking for a tenant? Two months, a month and a half, two months.

At least. At least, yeah.

We've been talking about it for over two months.

Yeah, at least then. And that's all it's been. That's it. He's the one guy who's like, I want this. I will do what it takes but at this I mean at this point it was very cut and dry if he didn't get it he's not going to take it which is fine so I will but still I do think if possible if I could get it to be approved to be a daycare center it would still be helpful because every single thing is children children children children that goes into that space there's really nothing like What do you put next to dogs?

Also screaming children. What's it, grooming? I have everything there already in the space.

It's daycare, grooming, like everything. The issue is if we bust it through those walls, there's an upstairs space. It's dead space. I can't use it. I can't have the dogs going up and down the steps. So it was a waste of space.

Sorry? No office space?

We have an office.

No, for other people. An accountant, a lawyer. It's so loud.

Okay.

So loud.

Yeah. It's like they'll be quiet for a little bit. Why don't you give me a call tomorrow or Monday? Okay. We'll discuss it. I'll go over what the board was saying, and we'll figure out how to keep you going in the right direction.

Thank you so much.

Okay.

I appreciate it. All right. Thank you.

Sorry for the trouble.

It's just, there's no trouble. This is your job. I get it.

It's a tough one.

I get it.

Yes. Because she's going to come back for use regardless. Well, we we've had holdovers go three, four months before. And in fairness, no, I'm asking if we should, should we hold it? Should we dismiss it? Cause she has to come back with use. She has to, um, Then let's do it that way. Yeah, I don't want you to file another fee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're trying to keep the cost down.

It just has to go before so we notice it properly. Okay, perfect. That's all. Okay.

All right, so I'm going to look for a motion to hold this. So moved. Second. Do I have a second? All in favor? Aye. Okay. Thank you and good luck. Thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

Good luck.

Next time you come back, you'll be a mommy. All right.

Sorry about that. Kid number one, so we can hold it off. So gracious. Just appreciate that. And that's Elizabeth Zimmer.

Oh, you want to bring her up, and then we'll do one of the four? Okay.

Oh, well, you're right. I'm sorry. i failed to mention application number one is is looking for a holdover coming up i'll look for a motion to hold that matter over and then the same situation with case number one one twelve crossroads number four promotion to hold that over second all in favor okay thank you Thanks for keeping me on my toes. No, no, hold it.

Just hold it. Don't, don't.

That's fine.

Okay. Good evening. Elizabeth Zimmer for a variation of section 156-9, seeking an area variance for permission to retain the existing shed. The property is located at 11 Daisy Drive, Opac, and it's taxed at 86.39-1-55. So the code requires or allows 10 feet for the side. What's provided is 4.5. 4 foot 6 inches, so variance of 5 foot 6 inches is required. It's 4 foot 6. Rear, it's also required to have 10 feet, and what's existing is 4 feet 4 inches, so variance of 5 feet 8 inches is being sought. Good evening. State your name and address for the record.

Elizabeth Zimmer, 11 Daisy Drive, Maypack, New York.

Raise your right hand. Swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so I'll help you God.

I do.

Okay, you're here for a shed that's been there for how long?

I don't remember exactly, but at least 30 years.

30 years? Yeah. All right, so that's been a long time. It's been a while. You didn't realize you needed a permit?

My husband took care of everything. He passed away. I know nothing about anything. Sorry for your loss.

Thank you. I guess he didn't realize he needed a variance as well.

That I can't answer honestly either.

Okay.

I don't know.

Obviously, there's no property you can buy to bring it into conformance, right? You're all landlocked and owned by other neighbors and Oh, yeah. Okay. I saw pictures of it. I didn't get a chance to get out there, but it seems like it's well screened and fenced in. It is.

It is. Completely fenced.

So it's got some natural barriers around it. It kind of hides it. Yes. So that makes me a little more comfortable. And I'll just open it up to the board members for their opinions and comments.

I have no problem with that.

Why is it coming up now? Because I just retired and I want to be selling my house, I can't afford to stay there if I'm not working. Got it. And my real estate agent said, there'll be a problem at closing, take care of it before you close the house. He advised you what? Yeah, take care of it now so it's not a problem at a closing. So I said, okay.

All right, that's good.

I was out there, it is screened. Yeah. Fencing on both sides.

Yeah, the whole property spends.

Okay, no complaints from your neighbors. Obviously, it's been there 30 plus years.

No, honestly, all my neighbors have a shed on their corners too. Shh. Yes.

All right, Sylvia.

They could have variances or it could be in the right spot. Anybody in public wishes to be heard on this application? There's only one person out there.

All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good luck. Congratulations on your retirement.

Oh, thank you.

Motion to close public hearing. Second. Let's look for a motion. So I have a second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Okay. Great. Let's vote. Minutes from?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. I'm a little out of order here. I can still vote on the minutes. It's fine.

Yeah. You're good if you want. All right.

All comments? Right. No public. I'll look for a motion on Elizabeth Zimmer.

Motion to grant. Second.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. Granted. um i look for happy birthday happy birthday see you got a gift um motion to accept the minutes from april 23rd 2026. before we do that can we just give dawn a round of applause too

Everything was perfect.

Good job.

I'll move to accept.

I'll look for a second.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Okay, motion to close the meeting.

So moved. Second.

All in favor? Aye. All right.