City Council - Regular Meeting

Good evening and welcome to August 70 council meeting here in the council chambers. Call the meeting to order right at 6 p.m. First thing on the agenda is agenda approval.

Move to approve.

Next up is our invocation. Right before we have our invocator, we're going to have Rashaun. Rashaun? come speak a little bit about a special ceremony he did. Or whomever.

Namaste everybody. My name is Ania Bursay and I'm a junior at Carmel High School. Along with being a junior, I am also a regular volunteer at HSS or Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh USA. Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh is a volunteer organization that conducts social, cultural and educational programs for our Hindu American community. Today, HSS volunteers, along with myself, came here to celebrate the Hindu tradition of Raksha Bandhan with our city council. Traditionally, Raksha Bandhan Festival is celebrated on full moon day of Hindu month called Shravana. This year it falls on August 27th. On this day, sisters traditionally tie a rakhi, a sacred thread, to their brothers seeking protection. They also pray for the safety and long life of their brothers. In HSS, we extend this tradition beyond siblinghood to friendship and emphasizing the Hindu value of Vasudeva Kutumbakam or recognizing the entire world as our family. Every year, we celebrate Raksha Bandhan as Universal Oneness Day in HSS. Instead of limiting their tradition, we expand the meaning of the protective thread to honor public servants, civic leaders, and community protectors as a symbol of mutual respect, social responsibility, and a shared global goal of familyhood. On behalf of HSS, I thank all the city council members today for celebrating this beautiful tradition with us. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And our invocation this evening is Cantor Melissa Cohen from Congregation Beth El Zedek.

As we gather tonight, our thoughts remain with the residents, business owners, and first responders who have faced the burdens of the heavy rains and localized flooding in our community. Events like these remind us how quickly the waters can rise, disrupting our daily lives and testing our collective strength. In the story of Noah, a great flood overwhelmed the land, bringing uncertainty, hardship, and fear. Yet, this ancient narrative is not ultimately about the storm itself. It is about endurance, faith, and the promise that follows. When the waters receded, a sign was set in the sky as a lasting symbol of hope, renewal, and shared responsibility to care for one another and to the ground beneath our feet. Indeed, Psalm 29 reminds us, God was enthroned above the floodwaters, enthroned, God is eternally sovereign, granting strength to us and blessing us with peace. In this same spirit of resilience, may we work together with wisdom and foresight to strengthen our infrastructure, protect our neighborhoods, and support those who are rebuilding. Let this moment inspire us to serve with patience, compassion, and a steadfast dedication to the safety and flourishing of all who call Carmel home. We pray our God and God of our ancestors grant to our city and these esteemed council members the will and wherewithal to make just decisions on behalf of our community. May each of us fulfill our responsibilities of citizenship with care, generosity, and gratitude, ever mindful of our duties to one another. May our elected leaders, volunteers, and all who hold public office exercise their responsibilities with wisdom, fairness, and justice. creator and protector of all, watch over our law enforcement, first responders, and all those entrusted with our safety as they put their lives at risk to protect us and our freedoms. May the one who protects peace on high bring peace and prosperity to our city, to our country, that we may be kept in safety, and we can all say together, amen.

Thank you. Next up is a Pledge of Allegiance. Please stand.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

RECOGNITION OF CITY EMPLOYEES AND OUTSTANDING CITIZENS. I JUST WANT TO MENTION THREE PRIOR TO THE NATURAL DISASTER. THIS BODY DID A GROUP PROJECT AND WE FELT WE COULD DO IT A LITTLE BETTER BUT WE GOT A LITTLE BIT OVER OUR SKIS AND CALLED THE STREET DEPARTMENT AND THEY SENT OUT JEREMY ADELMAN, Storm Bingaman and Bryce Powell and those three street department employees were so willing to help volunteer their time and were a tremendous help to this council helping out another resident of our community. I just wanted to say how much we appreciate them as we do all of our city employees. Recognition of persons who wish to address the council. First up, Mr. Swanson. On deck will be Coach.

Good evening, everyone. My name is Philip Swanson. I'm a resident of Atlanta, Indiana, north in Hamilton County, about 30 minutes north of here. I work and I worship here in Carmel, Indiana, and I've lived in this state since I moved here in 2022. I'd like to talk today about the proliferation of flock security cameras that have come into our community that stand as a symbol of the over surveillance that is encroaching into our neighborhoods. In 2024, Republican leaders ran on an agenda of opposing what was known during the coronavirus era as the Build Back Better, sometimes associated with 15-minute cities, this concept, if you recall. This has been a concern that many voters responded to and were activated in the last election. What got them what got voters out to support Republican majorities nationally and in the state. We have created the infrastructure that's required for these 15-minute cities with the installation of flock cameras. These surveillance systems are the requisite tool for those policies to be implemented, and we were never asked. We never got a choice on whether we wanted these cameras in our streets, looking at our homes, staring at our cars every time we drive. And this was a fundamental violation of our Fourth Amendment right, which is a broad protection of our right to privacy in this country. I just want to express my concern with the continued proliferation of these cameras and offer some community pushback to say that the people who live, work, and pray in this community do not want these cameras. We never had the chance to express our opposition, and I believe more should be done towards granting that sovereignty back to the people to have a voice on whether we want to be surveilled like this. And I yield any remaining time I have back to the floor. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Swanson. Mr. Charlie Demler. On deck will be Dakota Crawford. And Hal, I believe Mr. Demler would like the overhead. No, I want on my phone. Yeah. Not a picture of me. You said perfect. OK.

My name is Charles Demler. I've lived in Carmel since 1980. I have addressed this city council numerous times. There are still a few on the city council, including the mayor, when about five years ago, Buckingham came in to build an unprecedented six-story building right behind my house and two other houses. It was approved by the city council. It was approved by Mike Ballingham. I don't know if you can see the picture very well. I'm trying to show you what the picture looked like. Well, let me get a different picture here. Right here, this is what looked behind my house. I have a pool. I might sometimes swim naked. This is what the back of my property looked like. And I want the city council to look at and take me as an example of what happens when we allow builders to build right next to a residence. Here is what my property looks like now. Sorry, that's the first. This is what my property looks like now. Six stories, and I know it's hard to see. I can send it to you guys in the email if you'd like. Six stories looking exactly right down into the back of my pool. I have lost all privacy. I would like each and every one of you to think, if this were your backyard, would you have approved a six-story building higher than any other building in Carmel next to a residential area? Okay, so that's the first thing I wanna talk about. I will say Buckingham, the builder, has been a great neighbor. I appreciate what they have done, because they have had numerous issues that they've caused me, and they have cleaned those issues up. So I'm not bashing Buckingham so much, I'm bashing the approval process of the body of the city council in Mike Hollenbaugh's office to allow this to happen. And there were some of you that were on the city council that all approved this. So I'd like you to make sure and look at this and see if you want that in your backyard, okay? I only have a few seconds left. I would also like to mention, I was a person that the flock cameras helped. Two years ago, I was threatened by someone. Carmel Police did great. They talked about the flock cameras. They knew if this person was going to come into Hamilton County. It was great. Two years ago. Fast forward to now, the flock cameras are being broken into everywhere. Police officers are getting fired from their jobs. I'm not saying it's happening in Carmel. It is happening all over the country. Flock cameras, if you're going to use them, they need to be monitored. And I'm a retired IT director. They can get rid of the data in 30 days and be done with it. That's all. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Coach.

Just a reminder, you have three minutes. When it turns yellow, 30 seconds. Red, finish your sentence, please.

Thank you. Before I start, I just wanted to thank the councilors and the mayor, other city employees who have worked tirelessly over the weekend and into last week as we've dealt with the flooding and the other issues across the community. I know it's tireless, exhausting, and you maybe don't get as many thanks as you deserve. So thank you all for your leadership, for your work in the last three or four days. My name is Dakota Crawford. I live in the Gramercy West community. I'm here tonight to oppose a dismount zone for cyclists between West Main Street and City Center Drive. This was proposed in an ordinance that is on the agenda tonight. It was discussed at last week's, I think, land use meeting. So I want to be the first to acknowledge that there are real safety risks that the dismount zone aims to address. We've seen a nationwide uptick among adults and especially young riders putting themselves and others in danger on e-bikes and e-moto devices. We should work towards solutions. I know we're all like-minded in trying to find ways to keep the Monon Trail safe. I think that there are a whole suite of ideas from signage to encourage responsible riding, use of a bell when passing, signage that reminds pedestrians to be alert, CPD presence to help police bad behavior, and maybe the simplest and cheapest fix, or one of them is to require a driver's license for some of these electric or motorized devices. It gives us a clear cutoff for age requirements and an easy way to check who is using them on the trail. But to me, a dismount zone next to art that shows a young girl learning to bike and a Monon branded ride counter feel deeply ironic. And I think it undermines decades of progress that we've seen in our city. The Monon was built for bikes. It has anchored both incredible economic growth and a uniquely successful network of greenways and paths that make biking a legitimate form of transportation in Carmel. We just passed Bloomington for the highest rated bikeability among major cities in Indiana. I say that with all due respect to our friends in the number one ranked Santa Claus, Indiana. It's an incredible feat. I think that the ability to safely navigate our city without a car, it's rare in America, but especially in Indiana. We should double down on that momentum and that success. We should find ways to add more spaces for pedestrians and cyclists, not take them away. Just for one moment, I'd like to challenge everyone here to imagine that the next time a car hits a pedestrian at a Monon crossing or has a close call in a roundabout, imagine ever writing an ordinance that would require drivers to come to a complete stop, exit their cars, and check for pedestrians before taking off again. I know it sounds extreme, but again, in my mind, as an avid Monon trail user, the dismount zone is similarly radical. We're treating the Monon like it's purely recreational, But in my view, that's a mistake. The Monon has made bicycling a legitimate form of transportation, and we should regulate it as such. I hope the council and city leaders will consider more reasonable solutions. And again, I thank you all for your leadership. Thank you, Dakota.

Ryan Hellyer. On deck is Adam Muller.

Hello, my name is Ryan Hellyer. I'm a resident of Arcadia, Indiana. However, I work in Carmel and have been around the Carmel area for the past 10 years. What I'd like to talk today about is the mass surveillance, specifically by flock cameras in our community. Over the past three or four years, Carmel has built over 100 of these cameras in and around the area. And it's gotten so bad to the point where I can't even go to church without being surveilled by 10 of these cameras. I've looked them up. You can look that up online, right? And it's an incredible breach of Americans' Fourth Amendment rights to privacy. You don't have to take my word for it. The Supreme Court earlier this year in Chattree v. The United States in June determined that big tech companies cannot share detailed location information with the authorities without a warrant. Obviously, flock cameras do this. This is a massive violation of Americans' Fourth Amendment rights. And beyond that, no one was asked permission to build them. I certainly was not asked permission back in 2021 when I lived in Carmel, and I'm sure you haven't asked anyone's permission since then. I would really like to see a referendum of the Carmel populace on what they really think of these cameras. You're spending, what, $300,000 a year on them? Have you actually asked anyone if they like this, if they like being surveilled, if they like being tracked, if they like being treated like criminals? I think that's a massive violation of Americans' rights. And I hate to see it in Carmel, which is a city I love. So just to wrap it all up, I ask the city council not just to stop the contract with Flock, but to take down every single one of the Flock cameras, because it's a massive violation of Americans' Fourth Amendment rights. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Elliott. Mr. Mueller, on deck is Mike Cohn.

My name is Adam Moeller, and my family moved to Carmel two years ago. The freedom to walk and bike to everything we needed was one of the major reasons that we decided to move here. The Monon Trail for us is not just a park path. It is our primary transportation corridor. We use it every day to go to school, get groceries, visit friends, volunteer, and attend this meeting. I watched the Land Use and Special Studies Committee meeting earlier this month, and I shared the concern regarding safety on the Monon. Reckless high-speed riding has no place on the trail, and I fully support curbing dangerous behavior. However, a mandatory dismount zone penalizes responsible everyday commuters and families. Navigating a forced dismount zone with three kids on a bike is highly impractical, creates added congestion on foot, and treats the Monon purely as a recreational trail and not part of a vital transportation network. Furthermore, a blanket rule will not stop the reckless riders who are already ignoring the rules. Instead of adopting a blanket dismount requirement, hires a council to direct resources towards education and targeted enforcement of existing rules against unsafe and reckless trail use. Please preserve the Monon as a usable transit infrastructure for community members who rely on it every day. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Mike? And last up, Kelly. It will be Kelly Nagy on deck.

All right. Before I begin, I want to extend my gratitude towards the government officials, rescue teams, volunteers, and businesses for the professionalism, communication, and service here towards the city, county, and state over the last few days. The sheer volume of information and immediate assistance that was available to folks six years in the worst day of their lives is something to be proud of. We as a city showed up for each other in our time of need, and I believe it to be worthwhile to remember that going forward when times get tough. I realize that in the grand scheme of things, what I speak about tonight is a comparatively small issue, but city affairs stop for no one. Before the weekend floods, city leaders have begun discussing a potential mandatory bicycle dismount from Main Street to First Street Southwest during peak hours. I believe this proposal will not discourage the very behaviors that are being targeted by this ordinance, and I believe that it will punish people that it is not intended to punish. I have witnessed aggressive behavior by both kids and adults riding entirely too fast in crowds while not on Monon and not during what I would assume would be peak hours. But riding behavior is not going to be limited to peak hours in this specific section of the Monon. I wonder what enforcement of the mandatory dismount would even look like. I fear enforcement would be near impossible for those riding upwards of 20 miles per hour and potential speeds of two to three times that amount. I believe we need to think bigger on this issue or at least think differently and encourage behavior to change. I do agree that this section of the Monon, especially peak times, is incredibly crowded, but I also believe that a mandatory dismount won't work during these peak hours. I've noticed when going south, many cyclists end up choosing to bypass the crowds and take Monon Boulevard until the path splits into a separate bike path and walker, runner, dog walker, stroller path. The car traffic from Main Street to First Street southwest through the Monon Boulevard creates another conflict point with vehicle traffic in a very pedestrian family area. I believe it's time to look at closing down what some people view as an unnecessary street when cars and trucks have the exact same access when entering from the east or west on First Street Southwest. On a personal note, I'd use this exact section of the Monon as a way to get groceries with a bike trailer, commute to work, and even attend this very council meeting tonight. Having to dismount adds time to my commute, can be extremely awkward if carrying a large load with a trailer, and can potentially be disruptive to pedestrians when I have to stop suddenly and dismount, especially with the sidewalk on the north side. I haven't even touched on other citizens who need, say, a trike for added stability or an e-bike to relieve stress on their knees, or even parents who carry their kids, pets, cargo, et cetera, on their bike. Those bikes tend to be extremely heavy and are unwieldy to dismount and then walk and then get back on again. Personally, my commuter bike and I can live with inconvenience, but it's deeply unfair to those who may not be as able-bodied as I am. For a city that recently regained a silver-level bicycle-friendly community by the League of American Bicyclists, it confuses me that we would jump to a proposed objectively bicycle-unfriendly rule. I get that we have to weigh all options for this situation so everyone can enjoy them or not, and I believe that's part of the process, but I really do believe this option will backfire for everyone involved, and I humbly object to this proposal.

Thank you. and Ms. Kelly Nagy.

Hello, everyone. It feels strange to stand here today to talk about micromobility while people's homes are underwater, and so many of you all have been working around the clock. So first, thank you for your incredible response and dedication to this city. It is truly to be commended. So let's imagine a better time. Back in time to a perfect summer evening a few years ago, we were in town for a birthday party at Three Up. At the time, we were planning our move back home to Indiana and deciding where to live. We were looking at Fishers and Zionsville. Carmel wasn't even on our radar. Then I walked onto that rooftop and saw the Monon in all its summer glory. The bikers, the tons of bikers, kids playing, people walking, relaxing, just being, it was magical. That was the moment I knew we were gonna move to Carmel. We have a gem. And why? The native landscaping, beautiful. Buildings, amenities, wonderful. Infrastructure, truly world class. But I think there's something more fundamental. People are comfortable there. They can walk, bike, gather, and exist largely protected from fast moving cars. And I say that as a mom who sometimes feels like I live in my minivan. But some places are special precisely because they give us a break from the noise, the exhaust, and the stress of cars. So what does this all have to do with micro-mobility? Well, apparently, I'm not the only person who loves downtown Carmel. We have a problem of popularity. What an incredible problem for a city to have. So I was disappointed to hear that one solution being discussed is a mandatory dismount zone. For some of us, walking a bike is less safe, especially with my clown car. This is just one of children in the front. Individual circumstances aside, I think the major issue with dismount zones is that they introduce mental friction. Where does the zone start? Did I miss a sign? I'm a rule follower, and I don't want to be a jerk. Every little bit of friction makes biking a little less easy and a little less inviting. Instead of responding to the popularity by restricting it, let's build for the popularity. There's one underutilized area that seems just ripe for the picking, the red brick roads right by Bazbo's. why not make these bicycle priority? Free up more space for pedestrians and people. Bikers have more space too. And for the cars, there are so many ways to filter traffic while preserving controlled access for deliveries, valet, police. There are longer-term design solutions such as ballers, but there are short-term solutions like cones and signs. We can do pilots. We can do seasonal options such as bicycle priority on weekends, in summer, and do summer streets. Thank you all.

Thank you, Ms. Nagy. That is all of the blue cards we have this evening. I'm sorry? I don't know what you're saying.

The robotics team.

Okay, who's doing that?

Okay.

It's really a joy up here to be able to recognize outstanding citizens in the city of Carmel, especially when those citizens are shorter than I am, which is not a feat. But they are incredibly tall in their outlooks and their progress and working towards great solutions for the future. And so I want to introduce the coach of the robotics team. And I'm going to let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what your team accomplished.

Good evening, everyone. My name is Navdeep Saini. I coach a private robotics team that has kids from four as Carmel Clay Schools on the west side. We have Town Meadow, Clay Center, College Board, and Creekside Middle School. We've been doing our robotics program for the last three seasons, three competition seasons. We started in 2024, and we are getting ready to start our new season in a month here. But in our first season, we went to the state competition We didn't make it past the state competition, so we decided that, hey, we're going to work harder next year. So last year, we made it all the way to the World Championship. And to give you a little context, there are about 1,000 elementary teams in Indiana. 122 of them end up in our state championship. That happened at the Lucas Oil Stadium, and 18 of them progressed to compete at the World Championship. There were about 420 teams in our division from 53 countries. So I'm really proud that my team stood at the end of the rankings, about 79 of the 420 teams. So we were in the top 20%. So we are here to recognize our team. We have nine of the 11 children here. And robotics teaches a lot of problem solving, working as a teamwork. I'll invite Maddie, who's our youngest team member, to kind of read what she learned from her experience last season, and then we'll go and give out some participation certificates by the city council members. So, Maddie. Yeah. Let's go ahead and do the certificates first, and then while Maddie is setting up. We also brought our... our latest robot that we'll be competing in. But in the interest of time, I think we'll pass that opportunity. But we are happy to showcase you what our team has built so far. So I'll invite Arif to come get your certificate. And next is Aishwarya. Isabella. Next up are two of my children, Myra. Neil. And the last is Samuel. Two additional team members had a conflict today. Connor and Olivia Sullivan could not make it, but I would like to recognize them as well in their absence. All right. We'll give you some extras for them as well. Thank you. So if Maddie can come and just read her essay. At the end of the season, I request every team member to come out and tell me as a coach what did they learn in the season And Maddie is our youngest team member. We had team members from 8 to 12 years of age. Maddie was just 8 when we started the season, so I'll have her read her essay.

Hello, my name is Madeline Rosinski. And this season, I learned so much about working with other kids and being part of a team, which is new to me because I hadn't built anything big with the team before. Our team captain, Olivia, helped us learn how to work together. And I saw that everyone has special skills that help the team. For example, if a robot part falls off, Sam knows how to fix it. If the battery dies, Myra knows what to do. We learned when we work together, we can do much more than if we tried to do everything by ourselves. Sometimes we even help other teams at competition by giving them parts if they ask if we have them, which shows that we all work together as a robotics community. Everyone on our team has a really important job. From the loaders to the builders, we need everyone to succeed. Robots don't always work perfectly, and I learned a lot about solving problems this season. Sometimes our robot's beam doesn't lift or our pins don't fall into place properly, and it even gets lopsided. These are problems that we need to solve at practice or at competitions. We learn that problems don't always fix themselves, and we have to try multiple things to try and fix them. It's really cool how everyone has a different skill to help solve what goes wrong. This season taught me a lot about not giving up, even when things are hard. We faced many obstacles, like When our robot didn't work right during a match, we had to keep trying different things to fix it. I also learned about losing with dignity. It's kind of upsetting when you lose a match, but you can't cry. Instead, you have to stay positive and be glad even that you got to be in that match. Being on a team helps you stay positive when you lose. And I learned about winning with humility, which means saying thank you to everyone who helped you get there. I would definitely like to thank our coach, Coach Nebdeep, for pushing us through those hard times. It's important to thank everyone who helped because everyone helped make our robot succeed.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Those are lessons I think we're applying to our current situation here in Carmel as well. I know the mayor has applied them, as well as all the teams. So thank you so much, Maddie, for those great words. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Can we have a picture for the city council?

Thank you and congratulations. Okay, council and mayoral comments. Let's hear from the mayor. We also have, I'm sorry, we also have County Commissioner Christine Altman here with us today as well.

As well as City Engineer Brad Pease and Utilities Director Lane Young, and you're pointing at someone else?

Tim's here as well.

Tim Griffin from the County Council. County Councilor, exactly. We thought we'd give you a little bit of the public and the council a little bit of an update. regarding the complex and unfolding situation we have, ever-evolving situation we have going on with the flooding. I'm going to give you just a brief overview, and then we're going to turn it over to Christine, Brad, and Lane to provide a little bit more context to what I'm telling you, and then we'll open up to questions. Fair? As many of you know, the Carmel Emergency Operations Center was opened up Saturday, and that was to basically address the rain and flooding we were experiencing and that Many of our neighbors up to the north had already gone through. Saturday was largely dedicated to emergency evacuation and public safety. A total of 41 residents had to evacuate their homes, along with 44 residents from the Bickford senior living community. A total of 215 homes have been affected by this flooding so far. The Bickford residents were able to return on Sunday. However, the 41 evacuated homes will take longer to reopen. Most of the, in fact, all of those were de-energized by Duke Energy in the essence of safety. We're also concerned about gas leaks and instability of homes. Now the waters have receded and some of those residents are back in their homes surveying the damage and starting to do the process of cleanup. We have updated social media with information outlining how the city can help those residents with cleanup and more to come. We will be evaluating and communicating with Hamilton County Emergency Management a wider scale cleanup initiative. Many of you have also seen the very dramatic pictures of the bridge over Blue Woods Creek on Hazel Dell Parkway that started to have some fractures in it late Saturday. And as of today, all four lanes are sitting partially in the creek. That started as a result of floodwaters coming from the river, eroding the bank, and making the very well-built bridge and roadway above it unstable. I mentioned that that was from floodwaters coming from the river toward the quarry, which is owned by Martin Marietta. The problem was Saturday morning, those waters were a small creek coming to the river. So as the pressure, as the depth and volume of the river increased, it changed the flow of that creek and pushed water into the quarry, which was empty as of Saturday. Now the capacity is 9 billion gallons. And what do you think, around 7? Six and a half, seven billion gallons have gone into that. It's an incredible bathtub that Mother Nature created as a stormwater detention because that seven billion gallons that didn't go downstream to Indianapolis and further increase the flooding that happened downstream. Right now we're closely watching as this new channel of water that damaged the bridge is moving to the north and east toward the White River. erodes away a channel that's getting deeper and deeper and deeper toward the river. And it's also much, much wider. Brad will give you a little more information on this, but it's still looking at it today, right before we came here, the water's very fast moving. So if this channel joins the White River due to its depth and that of the river, there is a potential for the entirety of the White River to take a new course because it's now the lower path and go into the quarry. Once the quarry fills, it'll equalize its level with that of the incoming White River and the water flow will return to the riverbed, likely across our city-owned land there. However, for some time, it's possible the river will stop flowing south at that site. The river will stop flowing south at that site as all the water moves into the quarry. Additionally, in this area, Carmel Utilities maintains a large wastewater force main for this area. Elaine will talk a little bit about this more. If the White River redirects into the quarry, there is a potential that the forest main will be damaged and release sewage into the water. I want to be clear though, our current water system and our wastewater operations are not affected. Our water is safe to drink and the wastewater is functioning for our residents. We have been in touch yesterday and today with our federal, state, county, and local partners, for-profit, non-profit, community leaders to make them aware of this possibility and we are watching developments closely. There remains a potential that this channel will not intersect with the river and no downstream impact will be felt. However, in the matter of transparency, we want to make sure that this is something we're very concerned about, are watching very closely, and we want people to understand the impacts. We don't mean to frighten anybody or concern anybody. We just want to make sure that people were aware that we've been watching this and trying to measure the effects of this and want to make sure we're speaking openly about it. Next, I want to introduce Commissioner Christine Altman from Hamilton County, who can give us a little more information on the bridge and their role with the Hamilton County EOC in emergency management.

Good evening. It's not raining, it's good. We activated our EOC on Thursday. Being a county organization, we obviously had issues all along White River, had a lot of evacuations north I just can't thank our first responders enough for the heroism and skill they employed in keeping everyone safe. We lost property, but we haven't lost a life here in this county, which is very commendable. We are currently active in our EOC, monitoring the situation. The Blue Woods Creek is a regulated drain. It was reconstructed by Martin Marietta, as we do with lots of regulated drains. But to have it reverse course obviously puts strain on that bridge and just the velocity of the waters scoured out. And we had hoped, I guess foolishly, that perhaps it was repairable when it first started. The waters did not recede in time, and the pressure's been too much. So it is a full replacement. which is obviously problematic for both the county and for the people who use Hazel Dell Parkway. The way the jurisdiction of that roadway works is as a bridge that's 20 feet or longer, it's county bridge and county responsibility with respect for the reconstruction. And Hazel Dell Parkway remains under your jurisdiction. We have pledged to work as quickly as we can, and in fact, Highway spent all day looking at various procurement methods, analyzing which engineering firms would be the best for a quick recovery of the asset. Even saying that, with the permitting and procurement, it is not going to be a quick fix. As you well know, bridges are expensive. We're probably looking at up between seven and $10 million to replace that structure. I know you have your own infrastructure issues having looked at your park and it's truly phenomenal what that water has done. But we're here to work with you and we will work with you as quickly as we can to restore that asset and try to make us as whole as we can. And also there'll be reconstruction again of Blue Woods Creek And a lot of work to do and quite honestly, I think Martin Marietta has been an excellent partner if the When it's when the rest of the bridge goes down we have a bathtub to put it in the quarry So it'll be but yet another recovery issue. We have to deal with when they finally get to their assets underwater Thank You Commissioner

I'm sure everyone wants to know what happened and what's happening. And so I'm going to try to walk through that and describe that as best I can with as least engineering terms as possible. I will say at the moment, everybody gets to do it. So I want my chance to shout out the street department who is out there feverishly putting some riprap in to protect some of our facilities. So when I ask them to jump, they don't say how high. They say, why didn't you ask me sooner? So they are out there. with 15 trucks plus dumping concrete from Martin Marietta to protect some of our facilities. So if you look at the map that I have up here, the lighter blue is Blue Woods Creek. And again, that flows across Gray. It takes water from across Gray and northwest of 106th and Gray around the Martin Marietta site. Martin Marietta's drainage also, as they have pumping activities, pumps into this creek. and it would flow eastward into the White River. It's not a significant flow, but it is a continuous flowing creek normally. As the waters rose, it pushed back. At some point where that orange line starts to the southwest there, the bank of the river was breached and water then started flowing into the quarry. That created a suction event, a highly erosive condition. That started pulling material then back that way. That lowered the elevation in that creek significantly, 5 to 10 and now 15 feet, so it's now 15 feet lower, and that works its way eastward. So it started there sometime Saturday afternoon and has been doing that ever since. And it has moved eastward toward the bridge. Obviously, when it gets to the bridge, as the mayor said, it's a well-constructed bridge, but everything below it was gone. So the bridge, while still technically standing, has sunk significantly and will potentially be a loss into the quarry. That has since moved further east. You can see a north-south line, blue line there. That is a water line. That is a 30-inch and a 12-inch water line, which Lane will discuss, but both of those have collapsed and are no longer functioning. The Water Department has redundant services, so all services are still enacted. It was about there at that water line or just maybe 50 feet east of there last night at 8 o'clock when we left the site. When we showed up at 6 o'clock this morning, it had moved an additional 200 feet, so significantly tracing back toward the White River. And that dotted line had started to form as another erosion point, then compromising potentially our sanitary lines, a marathon pipeline, other assets that direction. There's also a well in the area. Again, the street department was out there today placing riprap and effectively stopped that condition. So it was a lower flow. They could have access to it. The reason we hadn't done it on any other portion of it is it is 2.8 million gallons a minute flowing through the heaviest portion there, and you just simply can't access that. So no amount of dumping riprap or other material in there would have stopped. It would have just been a loss to the quarry. So that has continued again. You can see the sort of yellowish line there is the force mains, a 30 inch and 24 inch force main. Those have not been reached by this deeper cut yet. And I will say over the last six hours, that deeper cut has slowed significantly. So it's possible that is moving through different materials, whether it be clay or sand and will change So earlier today, you know, based on the progression, you know, as early as 3 p.m., we thought that that orange line would connect all the way to White River. At this point, it's slowed. But the risk is if that orange line makes its way to the White River, as the mayor was describing, that is now 15 feet lower than it was before. It becomes nine feet lower than the existing White River. So it becomes the new White River. So for a brief period at that point where that blue line meets the White River, all flow or a significant portion of the flow could divert totally into the quarry. So that south of there, there would be no water on the White River and it would potentially dry out. It will take between two and six hours for the quarry to fill, depending on when this happens. And then the water will then come back east again and go back into the White River. So we've been in contact with all partners to the south who would be affected by the fact that the White River doesn't have water. So those water departments or other agencies will be prepared to react if that becomes a reality. If that orange line again does trace back, we would lose the force main there, get to the river. It's probably a pretty highly... violent or another erosive opportunity there where the 8 million gallons of water a minute that go through the White River right now are going to come back and potentially erode and create a larger path than it already has to the west towards Hazeldale. Again, at that moment, the bridge will certainly probably be swept away and a larger portion of Hazeldale. As of 10 a.m., Yesterday, the road has not eroded further. You know, we put some marks down to kind of see the progress. And so we've not seen erosion of the road because the water line has dropped significantly. And so the channel is getting smaller now, finally. It's just deeper there. But it's a race against a number of different factors. Does the water in the White River fall soon enough so that this erosive factor stops? What materials are we going through as far as the progression? Does it speed up or slow down? I'll let Wayne... I'm sure there's going to be a lot of questions. I'll let Lane kind of address the utilities, just make sure we have all the details covered on that.

Yeah, thank you, Brad. So, we started noticing issues Saturday morning pretty early. Obviously, as the White River was going over River Road, 122nd, as it was flooding into our neighborhoods, our manholes, which are made for rain events and storms, were not made for eight feet of river water to sit on them and just work its way down. So our collection system was starting to surcharge. And so probably at nine in the morning on Saturday, we started pumping out of those and just de-watering the river from our collection system. And so it was mostly river water, but obviously it's mixing in. And so we let IDEM know, we kept the clock going, and as of last night, we were able to stop. The inflow had stopped, and so we were down to normal flows last night. So that was kind of the first thing that we addressed. The next thing we were concerned about then, once we kind of knew that was going on, was the 106th Street lift station, which is kind of up just north of the little blue curve that, yeah. It's that yellow dot right there, yeah. So the water was continuing to rise, and 90% of our collection system flows through that structure. to our treatment plant. And so had the water breached that and shut that off, then we would have lost that lift station and then we wouldn't have been able to convey. So that was a concern. So we were there. We took sandbags and other things. We were able, and thankfully the water didn't rise enough. We think we probably had 30 inches left, 24 to 30 inches when it kind of finally crested. before it would have breached that. And so that started subsiding, so that was a positive. And so that kind of settled things, and then that got us back thinking about our drinking water system. So we have six elevated wells kind of along the river. Two of them are at 116th and River Road just south of 116. And then you've got one right there at Hazel Dell Landing Park, the one right there. You've got one, you see that solar field there? That's a solar field. There's one at the north end of that and there's one toward the south end. And then we have a well at our wastewater plant at 96 in Hazeldale. So all of those initially had issue except for well 20. Well, 20 continued to be able to function. 27 and 28 lost power. In order for us to reset those things, we can do a lot remotely, but in order to reset those, we have to get out there to the wells. Well, we couldn't get to them because they were so far underwater. And so eventually we were able to do that and got them going. So that was really the only impact to the water system was just the loss of those wells. But because we have enough wells north of here, we have enough raw water source to treat and keep our system going. So we didn't have any disruption. in our drinking water and no breach of anything has continued to be safe. Now as that event happened and it started at 3 o'clock on Saturday, I think it started a little sooner than that. But as that started flowing the other way and eroding and as the bridge was going out, our 30 inch raw water main and a 12 inch treated water main were compromised. Because as the under bed was eroded away, then they collapsed. The only thing that that drinking water feeds is our wastewater plant. Now, it needs that water as part of its treatment process, but we were able to slow that down. We could get some tankered water in there, and that's what we did for a while. Until today, this morning, we were able to run fire hose from two hydrants, one at 96 and Gray, and then one to Hazel Dell. To then get water back to the plant. So we were able to maintain our waste water operations, but we had to adjust sort of the way we did that during that time frame. That's probably it on the water side. And the water side has stayed safe and we've been in great shape. So we've had no real threat to our drinking water. Now, as Brad described, the threat comes. Well, I shared that that lift station is where everything flows, and it flows into it. It's still far away from the treatment plant, so it's got to get to the treatment plant, and that's what those two force mains do. It takes all that flow down to the treatment plant. If this keeps working its way up before the White River gets down low enough to stop it, then those force mains, which are about 10 feet below what was the original creek bed, we have no idea what that creek bed is now, because it's We've just seen it erode right in lower and lower. So we probably could get down to, I think, 715 elevations, something like that. If the creek bed gets to that elevation, then those force mains will be exposed. And depending on the pressure of the water, then those could be compromised. If that happens, we will continue to be able to provide service because what will happen is we will just pump water into that channel. If the event doesn't happen and it all stays, that would be great, because that will just then flow into the quarry. Solids in nature will just sort of settle themselves out. The cleaner water will be at the top, and then it'll be just a matter of cleaning that up. There's a lot worse stuff in that quarry right now. They had a lot of fuel down there, various other tools that have just obviously been. consumed by the water. So that's our concern right now is if that happens. We are working feverishly to come up with a solution. The problem is the width of that creek now creates a problem for bypass. We bypass all the time, large pipes we bypass. But you have to be able to build the bypass, use it, and that span is such that we're having to come up with some creative ways to sort of support that pipe. And so we're working with consultants and with construction companies or contractors. We're going to have them on site in the morning to start digging some pits should this happen. If it doesn't happen, we're thinking about doing these pits anyway as a bypass structure so that if some other time in the future this happens, we've at least got the start of that structure in place. So that's really, I think that's it from Columbia Utilities.

Yeah, just because I know the question is going to come up, I'll add, you know, why weren't things designed differently or should, you know, looking back, what would we do differently? So while Carmel didn't get a significant amount of rain or a decent amount of rain, but not to what would cause something like this, other communities to the north did and we're in what's called a Q1000 or a 1000 year or what is a 0.1% chance of a storm happening. So we just don't simply design stuff to a point one chance, something that's going to happen once every 1,000 years. So the bridge isn't designed to that. This levee and this river bank aren't designed to that. And we're not accounting for that with our water and sanitary systems. Such a low chance of such a huge storm.

I just want to add two things. One, the partners we've been working with include, of course, all of our partners at Hamilton County. the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Indiana Department of Homeland Security, FEMA, Martin Marietta. So we're trying to get as many experts around the table to talk about these issues and try to come up with solutions. And we're all trying to brainstorm how in the world can we stop this water from channeling? How can we stop the sewage from flowing if it does break? And it's just a little disheartening for action-oriented people, which I think are all of us that have been on these calls, to hear things like, It's too unstable. It's just not safe. We're going to have to let Mother Nature do her thing because there's just no solution available to us at this point that isn't going to put people's lives at risk. So very frustrating, clearly. But we have approached this whole thing from the beginning as how do we save lives and protect assets as much as possible. I do want to thank Northview Church as well. 14 residents from the Bickford Senior Living Center went there, as did numerous of our residents. And their generosity is greatly appreciated. And we've had so many residents. I got an email today from someone. Adam was copying on it, saying, I'd like to donate $10,000 to residents and to help the issues that they're facing. So many offers of volunteerism, dollars, prayers. It's just greatly appreciated. It's what makes Carmel so special is our residents, you know, paying attention and concerned about their neighbors. I think you would also be exceptionally proud of your city team members. Saturday I spent lots of hours with them and just seeing the pride, the professionalism, the caring as they're pumping out manholes of water so you don't back up sewage into homes as they are. literally helping people on and off of boats with cats and dogs that are scared with the contents of their lives in a backpack. Caring about each other, caring about horses and bunnies and cats and dogs as well. But it's just, you know, all the training that they do. And Firefighter Tim slash County Counselor Tim Griffin had said, hey, you should be proud to know that two-thirds of your fire department trained on water rescues two weeks ago. So time well spent and dollars well spent. So I just want to kind of add that at the end. I'd like to open up for questions. Mr. President, if you want to run the dais? Or if you want me to just take questions?

Take them.

OK. Go ahead, Adam and Shannon. I think you may have said this in some of your previous comments, but I want to reiterate it. Even the worst case scenario that we could be looking at with the water in the quarry, homes that are to the north of there near the quarry, we don't anticipate any risk that they would be affected.

I'll let Brad answer that. Yeah, that's correct. So earlier Saturday and Sunday, obviously that was our number one concern, is if the quarry continues to fill, what are the implications to the northwest and south? And working with our partners at the Army Corps, of course, to figure out protocols for that. The water level in the river has dropped enough that we are... I'm sure that that is not what we should be worried about right now, so it's not going to breach any of the corners of the quarry. It'll contain it. The new lowest point now is Hazeldale under there, as that has carved that new path. So the water will potentially rush in. It'll go right back out the way it came once there's an equalization event. Thank you.

Also, Councillor Austin, I do want to say, I think I said you as a group, but for the public to hear, Martin Marietta has confirmed they're not concerned about their mines and those things that are underground, that they're not concerned about any instability with those at all.

Yeah, we've been in contact with their teams. They've been very helpful.

Thank you, President Schneider. Lane, I really like the phrase that you've become creative. And so I appreciate those creative efforts to try and maintain clean drinking water and making sure that our toilets don't back up. Living close to the White River, as You know, some of not only our residents, our mayor lives close to there. Adam lives close to there. I live very close to there. I want to thank you for that. I want to thank the entire city staff for their hard work. But my question for you is this. With that pump station to the north there, if Brad mentioned that there's 1,000-year floods, but are we going to do anything to build up that area, protect that area going forward? I know it's a woulda, coulda, shoulda. type of question, but knowing that that might fail, is that something that you're considering or we are considering?

I mean, I think it's something that we have to look at. We can work. We were able to handle that water. We hope we never see that amount of water again. We would have to look at what would it take, right? I think it becomes the, do we build a new station, and that's not a cheap thing to build, but in the end, do we say that's worth it? to raise that up a little bit higher. There are some things I think we could do a little more cost effective. Part of what we needed to buy some space for was the power, right? And so where the power comes into that station and the control center right there is lower. I think we could fairly cost effectively elevate that to a much higher place along the building. So that would buy us several feet, right? So because the water was getting into the inside of the structure, that's not the issue. It's got pumps, we can do all that. It was if it got high enough and killed the power, then we're in trouble. And we have a generator there, so we can also elevate that generator. Both of those things are at a level, that was the level we were worried about. So we could cost effectively do some retrofitting and elevate that, that should buy us quite a bit more elevation. I think that the question, and Brad can probably answer this better, is do we look at building a berm and a levee along that road there that just buys us that much more time to direct water? So those would be some things to consider.

Yeah, that was where I was going with it. The electricity is very scary. You need electricity to run those pumps. And then just Two follow-up questions, and I'll let Brad explain just so I have your attention. For the general public, how many wells do we have in Carmel around the entire city? I think it's just an interesting fact. We have 21. So we've lost two.

So we've lost three at the moment. And when I say lost, they all can run. Power gets them, their motors run. But because they have to go into a pipe source to get it back to the plant, that source has been cut. So those three southern wells, so it's that one there north of the- solar field, the one in the middle, and then the one at our wastewater plant, those three are, that they, that pipe, that raw pipe feeds them and takes it.

Well, thank you very much. I have more questions, but I'll let other people have their turn.

Councilor Menard, can I do a follow-up? Yeah. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of analysis when things are stable. Right now, we're just trying to monitor the situation. Make sure we support our residents who are trying to get back to their homes. Make sure that the public health and safety remains at a high level. But clearly, as Commissioner Altman stated, we will have to look at the creek. We'll have to look at, obviously, the bridge and the road and all this infrastructure. And this is a perfect example of we take for granted how much infrastructure is underground. It truly is an invisible city under there, and when you drive by, you see this beautiful wooded field, but there is water, sewer, fiber optic, gas lines, and more there, and everywhere. So it's certainly complex, but they'll be formal for both the county, the city, collaborative, after-action reviews that are standard in any type of incident where there's a variance that has occurred. In this case, it's a large, innumerable complex variants. And so that would be something we'll be doing. And, you know, you'll be getting the information about that as well. Thank you, Mayor Fincom.

And I want to thank Commissioner. Thank you for coming. And also to Tim, our county counselor, for coming tonight as well. Appreciate it very much.

Okay. Well, you know, thank you, Mayor. And to all the team, you have been I would say, I mean, you've really been the shining example of how to handle a situation like this. So I'm grateful to the team. My questions, I know there's a lot of work yet to be done. The thing that I'm probably hearing or being asked most is just really a couple things. Commissioner Altman, I'm not going to hold you to this, but to set expectations and Do we think this is a two-year bridge fix, a one-year bridge fix, a one-week? No, I'm just kidding. But, you know, just, and if you don't want to say that's okay, but I want to go on the record asking the question, you know, are we talking a year?

We are probably realistically looking at at least two years. Okay, yeah. I mean, because we have to go through the design process. Yep. I'm concerned about permitting. Yep. Because we are working in... permit area, and then materials and contracting. So I would be thrilled to get this done in two years. And there's no other... Yeah, and we might as well say it now. It is what it is, and that would be rocket speed.

Yeah. So therefore, City Engineer, do we need to be thinking anything about Gray Road... Are we prepared for, I saw, I don't know if it was an article or whatever, but Keystone is obviously a go around, but Gray Road is going to be used. So is there anything we need to be thinking about as a council as far as doing any road work? Do we need to do anything in order to be prepared for that road to take a lot of extra traffic down there south?

Yeah, certainly it'll be part of our review when we meet with the county and get the solid timelines of what's going on and then what timelines can we meet if we need to, you know, is it worth it? How can we make improvements to 106 or Gray Road or the roundabouts there if necessary or what kind of MOT we would go through. So certainly we'll review it and if we have a recommendation, we'll bring it to you and know that you'll support us.

Yeah, exactly. I just want to be now thinking about, I know you're still worried about a lot of things, but I'm going to try and, as I, you know, I was out there on Saturday I got to say the officers, the gentlemen pumping the station there at 122nd, they all had the care of the community top of mind. And standing and talking to a young couple who's there on it, you probably know who they are. You know, the water's halfway up their home. They're devastated, but they were still very grateful and thankful for all the help they're receiving. So then my next question is, Mayor, are we thinking about you know, dump trucks and pulling out carpet and all that kind of stuff, can I assure, can we assure that, you know, we're going to try and have some way of getting rid of some of that debris?

Absolutely. And our 1 o'clock call today was going to be focused on debris removal, but this took precedence. So we've already talked about similar to the tornado cleanup where we can put dump trucks out there, have staff available to remove debris. We do have residents outside of the flood area that also had limbs damaged and other things because the storms are pretty significant. Thursday night, Friday night, I can't remember now. So we do have some other limb removal and stuff we can help them with. But yes, we're working on that. I know the street department this morning was making calls to Republic. We were making calls to the Hamilton County Solid Waste District to see what we can do about all the electronics that are going to have to be discarded. We really don't want that going into the regular trash to practice what we preach. And so those are already those that started earlier today. And so we are encouraging residents with questions to primarily either put a request in through our 311 program, but more importantly, call the Hamilton County EOC. That number's on our website because that they are centrally located with a manned call center to take questions. And then they get, they're starting to divvy up questions so that we can address those for our residents. We're also having residents, um, if they are in need of shelter, and we are not collectively Hamilton County, we decided not to have a shelter with cots and lack of privacy, but rather put people in hotels that the health department has already approved and are safe, reliable places to stay. So the Hamilton County EOC has been fantastic with the emergency management team and getting people into temporary shelter. Our fantastic Hamilton County trustees as well are helping people in time of need. So if people aren't getting these, we want to know about it. But we've also had hundreds of people offer to volunteer their help. If you want to volunteer to help our community, we need them to call the Hamilton County EOC as well. They'll ask them to fill out a volunteer form and then serve, what is it called?

It's Serve Noblesville is the entity doing that. And when you're ready, I can give you that number. We have We have actually established one number to try to direct calls and also set up a reception area at the fairgrounds in Noblesville. So supply donations go there. Monetary donations, we're suggesting the community fund in terms of dollar donations. But the number to use is 317-645-3255. So if you receive citizen requests, they'll be registered. And also the people who want to volunteer can also use that number because Serve Noblesville is down there too. Okay.

And they're asking people to come into person or via the phone to fill out this form. They're not putting the form out online because they want to make sure they're verifying legitimacy of these requests for help. And also, as we are ready to have 100 volunteers or something come into an area, we will work with them directly to say, okay, we need volunteers at Hazel Landing Park to help clean sludge off the parking lot or whatever it might be. So we will work closely with them. We're also getting there and waiting for a flyer from Serve Noblesville and the Hamilton County EOC so that our first responders who are helping people reenter their homes or our street department, they'll have some kind of flyer to tell them this number. Maybe they went away for the weekend to get out of, they had a family member in Ohio, they're coming home, they haven't seen some of this information, try to get them information as best as we can.

I was just going to add about Republic. So our team's been working with them and talking to them, and they're coming up with a plan. There's a meeting tomorrow at 1 to talk about the different options, whether that's orange tags for other carts and other kinds of debris. So They've reached out and are playing. So I'll know more tomorrow.

Well, I think it was just a perfect example of great communication, good training, great people, and good leadership.

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate the answers you gave about, you know, the most important thing, getting help to the people who need the help. And there'll be a future plan and even an intermediate plan once we're able to get into a full assessment. But earlier you talked about things that you might do just in case, you know, before the next. I'm not a weather person. While you were talking, I'm looking at the weather. The next, you know, it looks like we're going to have 24 dry hours or, you know, maybe 24 hours of dryness. And then we'll see. But you talked about the event and kind of the cause, or not the cause, but the result or outcome of the event. But what kind of rain or how can we anticipate the likelihood of that event coming? And again, I know you're an engineer, you're not a weather person, but just, I mean, we're kind of looking at the weather.

Yeah, it feels like meteorology because we're looking through muddy water to predict depths that this thing is and the progression as we chase it back and kind of come up with percentages. So earlier at our press conference today, I think we had an 85% chance that this connection would happen causing this event. It's unrelated to the rain we would get. It's just how, not totally unrelated, even if it's dry, it just takes time for the water to reduce. I just got updated during this meeting pictures and measurements from the field that I would reduce that down to 75% or 70%. So things are trending definitely in the right direction. Maybe the event will not happen. And I hope it continues to obviously lessen and maybe even the sanitary line is not breached.

And you were talking about potentially putting in some pits just in case, or just like in the next 24 or 48 hours to mitigate, maybe to reduce the likelihood of that percentage?

Yeah, so we have a contractor on site, and we've got them ready. They're going to mobilize in the morning and start that first step, because it'll take six or eight hours, that first step, just to get in and get those dug. to even begin to start to transfer the pumps. And so we can do that in such a way that we can install infrastructure that even if we don't need to do it this time, it's already there and ready. That six to eight hours is taken care of. And the next time, if something happens, we're getting pipe fused and we're getting it connected. So if it doesn't breach overnight, We can think about stopping them, but I think I'm going to be on site in the morning. And to me, I think it's money well spent. And then if it does breach, then they're on site working.

We'll know a lot more in the morning, I think, on whether the sanitary pipes will or will not breach. So the next 12 hours are going to be pretty telling.

Mayor, so I've got people who in my district who've had to evacuate. They're somewhere safe with family. They know it's going to be a while. But now that they're there, they're contacting me. The uncertainty is always scary, not knowing what's going to happen next. And a lot of them are trying to navigate resources, whether it's FEMA or insurance. And I know it's easy to tell people to be patient, but it's hard when they don't know what to do next. They want to do something. But realistically, at this moment, can people do? What do people need to wait on when it comes to assessing their property for the future?

I believe that most of those roads are passable in Northwood Hills in particular. But with the electricity being de-pressured, can we talk, de-energized, that's the challenge. We want them in there safely. So the thing I would recommend is that they call the non-emergency number and ask for an escort to make sure they're the actual structure is stable, because some of those homes had water very, very high. Tri-level homes had it up to the second floor. So that the area is safe to approach. It truly is de-energized. There's no gas line concerns, which we don't think there is, but that they actually have an escort to make sure they're safe, and so they can be on the personal cleanup mission. And then, again, they just need to be calling Hamilton County EOC, either 301 for a request, but Hamilton County EOC for those resources that they need. If it's something beyond the scope of the Hamilton County EOC to provide, then they'll also direct them to the township trustee. Clearly, there have been federal dollars allocated. There hopefully will be state dollars allocated. We have rainy day emergency funds, but we're just not at the point yet to say how those funds will be used and if we'll be able to access any of them, frankly. allow the request to also be very individual. Some people have pets, some don't. Some have kids at home, some don't. So we're concerned about the health in that home if there's mold. So we just really want them escorted in the first time they're in there and take the advice of our very well-trained public safety staff.

And I would offer up that Hamilton County Health Department is on this and has advice. Some of your folks are probably still unwell. service. So they need to take care when they go back in to make sure they do the proper procedure to sanitize the wells and make sure it's safe drinking water again. So the health department is standing by to help.

I want to add one thing too. When they do go back into their homes and they're looking at getting the electricity turned on, it's a bit of a process. They'll have to make sure their insurance inspector has come out. Then they're going to need to make sure that an electrician has come out and done what needs to be done. Then our building inspectors will come out. We will be waiving all fees for any kind of permits and requirements there. And then once our building inspector OKs it, then they'll go to Duke. It's a process. And unfortunately, some of these insurance inspectors and adjusters will probably take a little while because of the volume of people in Indiana that need help. So again, I think in the meantime, we want them in a safe location. like a hotel or like a friend and family member first. So if you have any questions on that later, happy to talk you through it.

I just had some more questions kind of on the event. And it's really two events, right, where if it keeps moving and it gets the wastewater line, that's basically event one. It could stop after that before it gets to the river, which is the The reflow event. Are you guys looking at it from that perspective? That's the fix tomorrow that you're talking about is for event number one to ensure that that kind of piece doesn't fall?

Well, as far as far as Lane's fix, we're not waiting. Right. So he's actively given the go ahead as of much earlier today to start this process. It's just not something you can fix right away. So like he said, maybe they'll cancel tomorrow if we have a surety that this wouldn't happen, but we'll kind of assess that tomorrow. But you are exactly correct if you're looking at the map as it chases. The first event is that sewage spill, which again, in event one, goes into the quarry, which is great. It's then a period of time before event two happens and it comes back. So there are two separate events. One could happen first and not the second.

And then as far as...

of the fix for event one what you're planning to do puts us in a position even if event two happens that will be in a better position correct correct yeah and just the the fix on on if it happens I just want to be clear it's not going to be a quick fix because depending on how wide that channel is to be able to fuse that size pipe that can handle that kind of flow that's going to take time and We've been having people reach out everywhere. A lot of that pipe's not even available. Quite a bit of, I hate to say this word, but the data center, they need a lot. They just take a lot of pipes. So the larger diameter pipe is just hard to get hold of right now. So we might have to use smaller diameter and do more of them to make up for the flow. So we're working through all those scenarios. So they're working through those issues. But it the first step is to get these two pits dug so that both sides can be ready for when that pipe is fused. When the supporting structures that will get that pipe across is built, then we can connect. So we're going to have to do that regardless. And so in the meantime, that we'll be working on where do we get the pipe? How do we get the structure to hold the pipe? How do we get something large enough to get it over? And that's where, as the mayor mentioned, I mean, we have access to state and federal resources who, if we really need to get some equipment that we don't have, we can reach out and start that process.

A little behind the scenes, so the first fix we investigated was over this, you know, which is a quicker fix potentially. One, then what happens in the second event that wipes that out. Two, even as is, if we know that's not going to happen, it's just a lot of water rushing through there, which I think Lane touched on before. We reached out with people who had helped in Hurricane Katrina and fixed levees and all this thing, and there's just not a barge or boat that can get in there safely and mount this thing over the water. So it's probably the bore pits solution that we're investigating now, which would be safe from a second event if that comes back.

And then for... Event two, I mean, you kind of referenced it based on looking at the landscape. You think once, if it breaches the river, the river will flow into the quarry, the quarry will fill up nine billion gallons. It's topped off as water starts to spill out of that from the flow from the river. You think that goes back east or southeast to the river? Or do we know just kind of in thinking just externalities as we get to the next phase? Obviously, there's a lot of water And waterways down there we saw, like off Lakeshore or whatever, the road is by the fashion mall where they had a diversion there too, wondering if those things connect and what that kind of looks like from your perspective, just in case we are looking at 96th Street, 86th Street, that area taking on that water as we figure out a path to divert it back or what that looks like.

Yes, we don't anticipate. So again, this large erosion event, it's hard to predict how much that might erode back towards it. But when there's this equalization, that is an energy dissipation kind of event so that when we do get equalized and come back, it's a slower moving amount of water that's coming back. It's not 9 billion gallons all at once dumping. It's just the surface water that comes. There will be potentially some flooding that does happen across Gray through that other creek. And of course, our first concern is this happening all over again on Gray. It's not the same event, right? There's not a pit there to suck all that water, so it would just kind of fill like floodwaters do slowly, and then equalize, and it's going to come back more slowly onto the White River.

And then timing-wise, I know bridge obviously matters, but resetting nature to the best of our capacity or understanding where it's going to settle so that we know how to build around it matters, and I wonder... Love to hear that the Army Corps of Engineers is already in and around and that we're working on kind of those next steps. But when we dig a big hole and it fills with water, stuff like this happens, I do think it seems as though an externality of that is that the water downstream did not rise as much as it could have in other places, which is a positive silver lining of now having, to my Googling, the biggest lake in Hamilton County. but the idea of what are we doing next and how do we ensure that we either put it right or that we know kind of what's coming I think matters. And I want to echo from what I've seen on all the sharing, all the process, how quickly people were in and out of their houses, how well everybody responded that this once-in-a-thousand-year event has been handled so far exceptionally well. Wild to think that A river has diverted in our city limits and we're trying to figure out how best to deal with that. From my perspective, keep us updated. Keep us aware of what we can do to help. Obviously, we'll do our best as legislative politicians up here to stay out of your way and make sure you get the feedback you need. But truly thinking what's downstream and where we go from there. A drying river is a once in a thousand year thing that we are helping deal with, and it's going to matter for the people south of us and potentially north of us if that stays and it has to move in a different direction. But this information has been great from my perspective. Keep at it, and we'll figure out what we've got to do.

As soon as we have a better understanding of next steps, once we get past this emergent issue, we'll clearly keep providing you with information on... the bigger boulders to move, so to speak, and then what to do after that. This is especially ironic. I kayaked the White River two weeks ago, and we had a portage because it was so low. I mean, it's just two weeks made such an incredible difference here. And it's also sad because Martin Marietta has literally helped us build so much infrastructure in central Indiana, and now they're going to be out of commission for quite a long time, which is also going to have impacts for Concrete?

Yeah, I mean, the fact that the quarry is filled and nine other ones throughout the state are affected by the issues, it will affect our build-back ability because of raw materials. So it'll either be more expensive or outsourced from further away. So that's going to play into our ability to kind of get enough raw material back here.

Okay. I'm glad you brought up the trash.

Sorry, Jeffrey.

But that was a question I had. I mean, all this debris has got to go somewhere and not to a normal transfer station, I would expect. But you mentioned earlier that the quarry water that's going to separate and clean water on top and solids on the bottom. But they have a response plan. They have a prevention plan. And I'm happy to hear Martin Marietta has been awesome. I wouldn't expect them to be anything other But they also should have a list of all of their contaminants. And all that oil is going to rise to the surface. So I want to make sure we're clear. It's not clean water rising to the top. It's some of the worst water. And then, in my experience with this, working for years on the big dig, there's going to be something that's thousands of pockets of biohazardous stuff that isn't going to just flush out. I'm talking in the future, but they're going to have to pump this water out at some point. Where are they going to pump it? And who's going to decontaminate it?

Yeah, so I think Lane's comment was if the water gets to the quarry and is only in the quarry, then it's one set of circumstances. If it does flow back, yes, certainly we're going to have contaminated water into the White River. And again, we've reached out to our partners. All the water treatment plants south of us are capable of treating that kind of water. Carmel's got separated sanitary sewers, but not everywhere north of us does, so in large events like this, we're not the first people that would be doing that in the last four days. So, you know, when that happens, whether it comes back in, you know, eventually it will be cordoned off back into the quarry. It's convenient that there will be some settling effect, so that will be helpful, but certainly that's not the end of it. We're not just pumping it off, right? So we will skim off the top, work with Martin Marietta on how that water gets pumped cleanly back over to the White River. So there are decontamination methods.

But if you looked at the, I'm sure you have, but what are, I mean, miles and miles of tunnels and drilling groundwater for wells, I mean, you get them out of fissures and aquifers. Was there any scenario where that water is leaching into our wells? No indication of that at this time. Awesome. Awesome.

From my understanding in our conversations with them, a lot of the tunnels and stuff is pretty located onto their property. There are some easements they have that get outside the property, which they're definitely monitoring. They go to other facilities. I believe most of that's really south of 96th Street, not fingering all over the area there or anything outside of the limits of Martin Marietta. Obviously, we're in contact with them and asking those questions. As a part of the cleanup, it will be important to address those.

President Snyder, too, they were not allowed on the site over the weekend as an active safety concern. So they were able to access the site, I believe, still this morning.

Today, I think, yeah. They couldn't be on the site until 6 a.m. this morning. They had a briefing. They had to get a mining safety engineer out there to kind of make sure it was safe and not an issue. And they confirmed that it was, and there's no structural concerns. But that's probably the first time that they've actually been on site to kind of monitor was today.

So it'll be some time before we have to worry about decontamination of water at this point past what may happen with the flow. But there.

Well, to your point about not being on site, I've got a message from Michael Klitzing. I do want to pass along. The Hazel Landing Park closed indefinitely.

Yeah, I didn't get into the damage to the park. I don't care about the damage. It's closed indefinitely.

Yeah. River Heritage Park closed for probably some time. We'll say indefinitely. The trails closed indefinitely. And why that's important is because, well, for now, we've got police out there blocking. And if at some point you could please mark the barricades so people know on the map how far they can get. But the Parks Department intentionally, because they're separate, not technically city right-of-way, they do actively pursue trespassing. And with all of the cameras that we have around our park system and the city has and everything else, like them or hate them, you will be charged with trespassing if you step on that ground. To Commissioner Altman's point, at this point we have lost zero lives. It would be asinine if someone goes exploring and dies in the undercurrent. Our parks are, those parks are closed And if you are found, you will be arrested. It's that simple.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So, you know, our traffic cameras and stuff have been monitoring where we're on site. Saw a significant number of people crossing. Police do not cross barriers. Other barriers really putting their lives in danger. We have chased people for three and a half days out of here. Previously, Hazel Dell Roundabout was open. It is no longer open. So you can't get here from 106th and Gray. You can't get here from 96th and Hazel Dell. And you will not be able to get there from 116th and Hazel Dell. So we have moved. Because of the potential for this more catastrophic event, which I don't anticipate affecting the roundabout, but it is in that potential area, we have moved all those barricades back. So do not go past any of those. It is not safe. City employees will not be there tomorrow morning. We'll look at the cameras first before we're getting any of our people even in there. That's how dangerous it is. So I know they probably saw us walking around thinking it's okay, but we have engineers and safety personnel that know where you can walk, where you can't. So, yeah, thank you for saying that. People, please stay away. Do not kayak on the White River. You will get sucked into this and be dead in the quarry in a matter of minutes.

Being arrested will be the best outcome. Yes.

I would point out that the underscour from the pavement, it looks like it's solid pavement. You could go to the edge. There is no support under that pavement. It is extremely dangerous, as your engineer has advised, extremely.

We also watched a gentleman fill his jugs at the Flowing Well Park. That water looked like the most disgusting water you'd ever seen. It's been closed up, but just don't bother going there, folks. Buy your water at Kroger. But this is, the Sartesian Well needs to be cleaned up and the water needs to be tested before you can access it.

To reiterate, including Flowing Well Park, Hazel Landing, River Heritage, closed indefinitely. If you trespass, you will be arrested. And that is not to be Just strict. That is for your own safety.

The county's Prather Park.

Oh, Prather Park. Also, I don't know about your trespassing rules, but.

Like you said, that's the best outcome for those people that they're arrested before they make a horrible mistake.

Did Director Klitzing say anything about the White River Greenway pathways? Because those are flooded as well. Most of them are closed. Yeah. Yeah. Is that the same?

At the barricades. Yeah. Or at the closures. They remain closed. OK. OK. So 9 billion gallons, that is 380 years of your garden hose, to put it in perspective.

16,000 Olympic swimming pools. I knew you'd be ready.

That is every person on the planet flushing the toilet at once still wouldn't fill it. It's a lot of water. I'm also accounting for evaporation at a quarter inch per. But yeah. It's a lot of water. It's amazing to see everybody working well together. 317-645-3261. If you need any help or you know of anybody that needs help, that is the number to call. As the mayor and the commissioner have stated, it is a human on the other end of the line. They will pick up the phone and you will get help. If you call any of us, we will hold your hand, but we're going to give you that number. That is... The best scenario in these types of events is one point of contact. Thank you to the mayor and to the commissioner for creating this, doing this. 317-645-3261. Thank you guys for all being here. Thank you. We're going to move on. Consent agenda, approval of minutes, August 3rd, 2026, regular meeting.

Move to approve.

Claims payroll in the amount of $4,552,131.37. General claims $3,358,709.85. Retirement $137,832.06. We need to finish the first vote. Actually, on mayoral vetoes, there are noncommittee reports. Councillor Taylor had an absolutely unavoidable conflict this evening, which is why he is not here. So unless somebody else from finance wants to say anything, saying no one raised their hand, land use.

So we had a meeting two weeks ago right after a council meeting to discuss, as you heard, many comments tonight about The Monon Trail and e-bikes and e-motos and making that path safer for all of us in the city of Carmel. Those discussions are ongoing and we have another meeting coming up on Thursday. And so I invite everybody to come. Again, it's a new date, so Thursday, new time, 6.30, same location, Carmel Library. Thank you.

Mr. President. Yes, sir. May I ask a question? So could you kind of give us a quick summary of what the folks who spoke to us tonight, what they're responding to? What is the proposal for dismount?

We had been working with the police department and had gotten recommendations from them for a mandatory dismount zone on the Monon at Main Street and to have people be able to get off their bikes so that they could safely cross that much busier area of the Monon and then to again remount when the bike lanes resumed. as separate bike lanes. So that was one of the proposals that was put forward. That was what we had discussed placing into the ordinance. And that was on recommendation of the police department and their thoughts on enforcement abilities and safety.

So as it stands now, will that be in the ordinance that will come to us next?

We are still actively discussing that in committee, so it may not end up being in that form. It is there now, and that was one of the discussion points, and that's why you heard the feedback, which is exactly what I love from this committee is that we go and we get that feedback and we come back and we discuss this again. So we will have police there again. We will have members of the community. We'd love to have anyone who wants to be there to be there so that we can have a full discussion of that possibility.

Okay, thank you. Thank you. Along that point, I know someone in the public said they were disappointed that that was being discussed. To your credit, discussion is not action. So thank you for discussing it and all suggestions being thought of, even if we don't move forward with that particular suggestion.

Thank you, Councillor, for bringing that up because it is, we can never, we can't vet ideas until we put them on paper. and then get the feedback we did, and I'm sure, to your point, there'll be lots of further discussion.

Oh, Economic Development Commission.

Good evening. My name is Jeff Moore. I am the Council's appointed member on the Economic Development Commission with a refreshingly boring and short update. So I'll be quick about this. This is a semi-annual update. My last update to the Council was August 18th, 2025. The Economic Development Commission met the following week on August 25th, 2025. We had one project before us for review, that was Rebar's Signature 55 project on Old Meridian, just south of Bruburger. That was for $11 million in bonds. It was a mixed-use development, 200 age-restricted multi-family units, 12,000 square feet of mini space, 356 parking spaces. There's an easement there for the public restrooms, which are under a separate contract, but these are public restrooms that serve the community broadly, and the board voted unanimously to approve those bonds. So, another point, we have no meeting scheduled right now, but we often meet in the fall, so I wouldn't be surprised if we have a meeting sometime in September time. Any questions from the council? Great, thank you. Have a good evening.

Thank you. Old business. Items A, B, and C all remain in committee. Public hearings. First reading of Ordinance D-2844-26. Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana authorizing and approving an additional appropriation from the Motor Vehicle Highway Fund. Sponsors Boyle and Menard.

Move to introduce. Second.

This ordinance appropriates funds to cover equipment and fleet needs. Zach.

Thank you, Mr. President. Yeah, I have a $389,000 additional appropriation request for the street department from the MBH fund. Earlier this year, the street department sold vehicles and equipment that no longer met the department's needs, and they're now asking for those proceeds to be reappropriated back to them so that they can buy other equipment and vehicles such as a loader, street sweeper, and various trucks.

Let's go ahead and open up the public hearing at 743. Seeing no one rushing, we will close the public hearing at 7.43 and additional seconds. Questions from the council?

I do have just one procedural one. As you at the finance department have started kind of pulling together like the vehicle use plan and the lifetime, are these loaders and other things like that part of that synopsis or is that still something left?

You know, these are more on the specialty vehicle side of things as opposed to passenger vehicle. Finance and street department are working together on kind of optimizing our overall fleet, but this was really more street department centric and looking at their bigger equipment.

Just a quick question on that. So the vehicles that were sold were aging vehicles that they felt they didn't need to replace them with newer vehicles. Is this part of just the OVERALL MAINTENANCE KIND OF PLAN. I FIGURED YOU CAME AND SAT THROUGH TWO FULL MEETINGS AND DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SAY A WORD SO THIS GAVE YOU A GREAT OPPORTUNITY. AND TO BE THANKED FOR THE INCREDIBLE JOB THAT YOUR TEAM HAS BEEN DOING FOR THE ENTIRE WEEKEND.

AMEN. THE SALE OF THE VEHICLES ARE IN QUESTION. We've sold one of our big loaders, looking to sell the other one. It's about optimization, looking at the future. We have trouble getting repairs done on the loaders. We don't have anybody close that can work on them. And so the only vehicle that was sold was we had a pickup truck, an older pickup truck, that was actually propane. And it was going to cost us, based on repair estimates, over $20,000 to repair it. We ended up selling it and getting like $14,000 out of it. So there was no, you know, that's the only vehicle that's been auctioned so far. The rest of them are equipment that we had continued mechanical issues with. Your question to Zach is part of the overall fleet plan. Once everything gets rolling, everything will be inspected, even the equipment, on a yearly basis, analyzed, and then oftentimes if anything is going to cost more than 50% of what the, if the cost of repair is greater than the value of, the current value, then that would be an automatic thing to trigger it. So all these things are in that nature.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Would anyone like to waive, suspend the rolls?

I move that we suspend the rules and act on this this evening.

Second.

Move to approve.

Second.

Okay. New business. We're good on that. Okay. New business. First reading of Ordinance D-2845-26, Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana, amending Article 4, Section 2-159 of the Carmel City Code. Sponsors, Menard, Taylor, Worrell. Councilor Worrell.

Move to introduce. Second. This amends Article 4, Section 2-159 of the Carmel City Code to establish a municipal tourism capital fund.

Thank you, Mr. President. So earlier this year, the Indiana General Assembly passed House Enrolled Act 1210, which was also the DLGF annual bill. Also historically, innkeeper's taxes that were collected from Carmel have gone to Hamilton County and retained by Hamilton County. In response to the mayor's request to keep more of those dollars in Carmel, House Enrolled Act 1210 now requires a portion of those revenues to be allocated directly to the four larger cities in Hamilton County. And so this is new money for the city that does not come, doesn't really impact our residents collected on visitors. House and World Act 1210 requires us to create a new municipal tourism capital fund to deposit this revenue. We anticipate receiving about $1.3 million annually in here. For what it's worth, the law specifies that the money in the fund may only be used for capital projects for tourism-related purposes.

It used to be money could be used for any legally available item, right? That used to be the language until they

You know, I think so. Again, these were innkeepers' tax dollars retained by the county before. I think it had to go into their tourism development fund, and I'm not exactly sure how they allocated that out. Yeah, it was definitely through Visit or whatever they're called, Indiana, or Hamilton County Visitors Bureau, yeah, and now it's coming to us. So in the past, there were larger projects that may or may not benefit Carmel. This gives us a defined cut of that money and can be used in the city of Carmel without being reallocated to others. We weren't getting these dollars before and so the use is very specific now too. It has to go into this fund. It can only be used for these purposes.

And who defines what actually is a tourism purpose. I mean, I can make the argument that every park contributes to tourism.

Well, and so the funny thing is that a lot of the funds in code say that it's the fiscal officer that controls it. This one says that it's actually the city fiscal body that's in charge of the fund. And so Benjamin will tell you how you can

So it is, in the non-rewarding fund, in order to spend it, you'd have to come make a compelling argument. Council would have to cooperate and everything.

I would like to make a motion that we suspend the rules and vote on this tonight, if everybody's comfortable with that. This is new money, new everything, so.

I just had one question, and that is, could you give us any idea of what the anticipated annual revenue distribution for this might be?

Yeah, I'm saying $1.3 million annually. LSA said $1.36 million annually, so we're pretty close. And that is Carmel's estimated share.

Thank you. We have a motion.

I will second that.

Move to approve.

Second.

Awesome. Thank you, Zach. Agenda add-on numbers. Agenda add-on items. Excuse me, none. Other business. We have an appointment that's been vacant due to a resignation from our Board of Zoning Appeals. This is, this appointment will fill out the remainder of the four-year term. This appointment would take the individual appointed to this board until December 31st of 2027. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna open it up for nominations here in a moment, but All right. I'm going to open the floor for nominations. Ryan Cadwell.

I will nominate Ryan Caldwell for the BZA appointment position.

Second.

I'm going to close nominations. We've had a nomination put forward. That's Mr. Ryan Cadwell, a Carmel resident Carmel business owner, has lived in Carmel since 2010, is in the area of commercial real estate. His resume has been vetted by Planning. Mike Hollibaugh, who believes his credentials are in line with the position. Mr. Cadwell, previous to 2010, served on the town of Pittsboro's Planning Commission, comes with experience in this area. We have A nomination put forward. Can we move? Can we have a motion to make the...

I close the nominations. I move to close the nominations.

Second. Nominations are closed. Is that all the action? Is that... Benjamin?

I move to approve the nomination.

It wouldn't be a meeting if I didn't screw up procedure. So now nominations are closed.

Move to approve. Second.

And we've got a motion to approve the nomination in a second. That's it?

Yeah, that's it.

OK. We all screwed up procedure tonight.

In the interim. Mr. Ryan Cadwell, if you could, after Benjamin tells us what we're doing wrong, stand up and... Benjamin Legge, Officer, Corporation Council.

You still need to vote. You still need to vote because it is potentially possible that the vote does not take place and then the position would remain open. So you still need to vote.

So we have a motion and a second. Yes.

Let's vote.

Thank you.

I bet it passes too. Ryan, if you could stand and just introduce yourself, say hi. Actually, so you can be on the camera recognizing that you are not obligated to give any sort of speech, but if you could just say hello.

Hello. And my last name is spelled Cadwell, C-A-D-W-E-L-L, just in case that matters.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for volunteering to serve. We appreciate you. Mike Hallbaugh or Rick Butler will be reaching out to you in the next day or two. Your next meeting is a week from today. Thank you, sir. With that, any other announcements? Yes, ma'am.

Yes. The Mayor's Advisory Commission on Housing will be held on September 10th. at 9 a.m. here in City Council Chambers, and I would recommend that anybody who's interested in the housing discussion to attend tomorrow's Planning Commission meeting where there is going to be an open hearing to discuss all of the nine regulations the state is requiring us to do, which will help our Housing Commission form some recommendations to send back to Council.

Thank you, Council Member. 317-645-3261. If you... Or anyone you know needs help, that is the number to call. Hamlin County EOC, a human will answer. Or if you want to find out about volunteer, thank you, Teresa. Volunteer opportunities, once it's safe to get in there, 317-645-3261. Thank you. It is 7. Yes, sir. One final. Did any of you reach out to the law firm?

Oh, yeah.

Good information? Yeah. OK, thank you.

Thank you. Yep. 756, we're adjourned.

Thanks for watching!