Board of Commissioners - Regular Meeting

Just so you all know, I've been hauled out and I've been out by the sheriff. real.

Call the Frank County Commission meeting to order. Start the pledge of allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Any additions to the agenda or changes? Yeah, I'd like to add it would just be a short thing at some point where it fits in. I'd like to talk a little bit about the music center and the board. Okay.

No, no decisions. just want to run something by and uh I want the uh music board to hear about it and in our next admin meeting Tuesday if we can discuss it a little bit more be good and then that Tuesday I believe they'll have a meeting and then I can go to that meeting and talk to them about it and see if we can work something out. All right, I'll move it down to county office department reports. Okay. Uh, first up. Okay. I know approval of minutes and claims. So, I reviewed the claims and the minutes. I didn't have any issues with the bucket there. Yeah. I I run into a couple things, but I've had it explained to me since then, and I'm okay with it.

So, you make a motion. I'll make a motion to approve claims minutes. And I'll second roll. Okay. Ron, [clears throat] how do you vote? Yes. Tim, yes. Kevin,

yes. Okay, the first agenda item is the ordinance established usage of county owned vehicles. And typically what we do, this is an internal ordinance uh for for our staff. Um we generally rehab two readings whether we need it or not. And so this is ordinance number 26-2-18-00001. It's an ordinance establishing usage of county owned vehicles. So read that into the record. I'll just cover three paragraphs to give you a little background on it. Whereas Brown County, Indiana, owns various motor vehicles and may at its discretion provide a county-owned vehicle to a county employee to be utilized for a county business. Whereas the board of commissioners of Brown County, Indiana, the commissioners desire to clarify the policies and procedures regarding county-owned vehicles. And three, whereas the commissioners have determined that updating the Brown County ordinance and the Brown County personnel policy handbook to revise the regulations on county owned vehicles is a priority for county. Now, we don't encourage uh personal use of vehicles, but when they have to be used for that, it's a taxable benefit from the IRS. So, this is this covers that that circumstance.

Okay. Next, I'm sorry. So, do we need we need to vote on that formal one? My comment to allow the public more time to look at that. I take I propose or make a motion to table that for now. Okay. Well, I'll second that the take home. A motion to table table the ordinance. Okay. Um Tim, how do you vote? Yes. I'll read that. Kevin, yes. Bron, yes. And Teresa, can you make sure that we put that up on our web page under the document section? So, that's

I thought it would actually look pretty good. Yeah, actually it wouldn't it's not going to be widely used because like Tim said, we don't we don't allow personal use of those vehicles. The only area where that is which is not covered under this ordinance is the sheriff's department or and we reviewed with department heads a couple meetings and two or three rounds with the attorney. So yeah, I think it's pretty complete. Um contract AT&T law enforcement center dispatch center lines update Kevin.

Uh okay. So, can I ask one? Dwayne, can I get you to turn that big old screen towards the audience because I don't need it. Thank you very much. Good morning.

Rather than tripping over myself to get down there. So, as most of us know that technology moves along. So, one of the things that's being impacted by the the law enforcement center, the dis in the dispatch center, is that we still had copper lines that were being used to take rerouted 911 calls from other counties. Um, since most people are now making 911 calls on their mobile phones, it pings to the nearest tower and sometimes if they're in the area, it pings in the tower that's in Bartholomew Johnson or wherever that is. So what has been happening as process is is those calls would be routed from that call center whether it be Monroe or wherever to Brown County and these two lines uh that we physically have now that are copper would handle that traffic and they would also basically use those lines to do follow-up calls in the event that someone hung up from a 911 call. They would do a call back there. So since the technology is no longer being supported by AT&T we're having to move to a different solution and there were three solutions. All of them are fiber, but it's just various degrees of content as to what support we needed. We needed a minimal um minimal plans in that which is reflected by the $125 a month. That is only $25 more than what we were paying with the copper lines. And it also gives us a backup in the event that the fiber systems go down. It is a wireless broadband backup. So the functionality continues to function as it as it's intended. So in solution one it was similar except the lines were being provided by a third party and the second solution was uh solution number two was way overkill is actually allowing us to give huge bandwidth and things for data which we didn't need. So in having that conversation initially the budget um you know they're they're not willing to step away from their standard terms is one of the first ones we I've had engagement with where they weren't willing to do that but in compensation for that they provide

proposed a cheaper solution. Um just looking at that if you worst case scenario on the termination clauses if we were to go with solution one the worst case scenario would be $3500 in termination clauses. If it were solution two, it' be a little over 11,000. With the solution that I'm proposing we accept, it would be $2,50. And obviously, every year that we are in that contract, it goes down. So, after having gone through all of that, I'm making a recommendation that we proceed with signing the contract with AT&T for solution number three. Recommendation or motion? Motion.

Sorry, making a motion. We accept solution number three. I I kind of read that, but if you got the price down to that, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'll second your motion. Okay. Roll. Uh Kevin, how do you vote? Yes. Ron, yes. Tim, yes.

All right. Next item is the INDOT agreement for Mount T State Forest, the upgrade of Pumpkin Ridge Road. U let me explain how the process will work. I'll start open up with a few injured summary comments. We'll turn it over to the audience for your comments. Uh come to the podium if you can limit it to about three minutes. If somebody else covered something you said, you know, you might not want to repeat it. Um and again, be civil and kind of respectful. A lot of work went in by a lot of people on this thing, both pro and con. And uh like I said, a lot of good work went in. So kind of civil and respectful and and um you know, make your point. Um, Eric, if you could bring out the main page, guys, let me just for folks that may be new to this or tuning in, I guess, on YouTube. Let me just cover kind of summary points. Um, Pumpkin Ridge Road is unmaintained by the county road. Mount T State Forest dedicated on August 20, 2020, but the deed to the state, it was deed to the state in 2013. The county has responsibility, not the individual owners on the property. The county has a responsibility to maintain a two-lane road to provide safe access to Mount T. Given the condition of the road um too expensive for the county to upgrade, DNR and Brown County asked and received state funding. INDOT modified the initial concept of design to a minimum standard they would approve and fund. Regarding land acquisition only, we only need land to accommodate needed changes in the road. Temporary easements are needed for construction areas to allow access, install covers and ditching. County only need the land and rideway needed to maintain the road. Property owners have choices how they want to landscape their property once construction is complete. Uh we need a signed agreement before additional work can be done that leads to preliminary engineering report and that leads to getting final plans and costs. Um and then phases if you could bring that up.

If you look at the agreement, there's a lot of tasks for the LPA uh be the commissioners and and the highway department. And what we had INDOT do is develop a is that? Yeah.

If you look in the agreement has a lot of individual tasks and what we asked for is, hey, could you break this down by phases? So when this project progresses, we've got kind of a timeline and different decision points. So if the things change, they find certain areas on the ground that have to adjust the plan, uh we'll be in tune with that and and communicate that as much as possible. But you know, like we've done throughout this process, I think this is what we on 10 months. Um we started this back I think the first vote was what April somewhere around in there. And this pumpkin ridge road mount has been on our agenda ever since. Kept everybody updated on where we're at. The last thing we did was uh on the final plan was do a walk through on site walkthrough on the 24th and uh the property owners were there, Kevin and I were there, INDOT was there, DNR was there and we walked the walk the road up and down um to get a feel for for what was going to be happening. So, uh with that, I'll turn it over for public comment. If you would just step to the podium, state your name, uh kind of limit yourself maybe three minutes or so. Thanks to everyone for coming tonight. My name is Bob Cle and my wife and I have owned property uh just north of Humpkin Ridge Road since 2001. I've been coming to these meetings uh regularly uh since I think late summer. And it's been interesting to me and that as the project has gone on that there's been more support uh against the project. Um, at the last meeting on uh February 3rd, uh we talked a little bit about the uh online uh review or petition, which I'll reference here in a second. Um, but we also had many neighbors um that don't live on Pumpkin Ridge Road. Charlie Shaw, Rich Samley, Greg Dong, Sherry, um Dana, a lot of people are interested

in this project that don't necessarily live on Pumpkin Ridge Road. They're longstanding, respectable members. Uh and they say this is happening to our community. Um and we we do not support it. Uh not to my knowledge, not a single property owner on Pumpkin Ridge Road is supportive of this project. Um, I think that uh based on some of the comments made last meeting, February 3rd, there's a lot of people in the community and neighbors uh of Brown County that are not uh supportive. Um I think that uh you know there this is personal to me just in terms of the impact it has on our property. Here's a picture. I don't know if you can see that, but here's a picture of Son Ridge Road. Here's our home. Here's an out building. Here's a lake. This is where Pumpkin Ridge Road is. And if you look at the construction boundaries of where the uh stakes are, it it would bring [clears throat] it up almost halfway to our house. And that is to me is is just not acceptable. I've also made reference on the septic field. Well, we've got somehow when they put a septic system in. This is the house. This is a septic line and it actually crosses under Pumpkin Ridge Road. And so that's the thing that Nick and I have talked about would have to do a work around, but it it actually tunnels I guess underneath the Pumpkin Ridge Road and certainly um would be uh disruptive. Um, I think that of the online petition, um, uh, thanks to Jason and probably some inputs by Melinda, uh, put together a very nice summary of that, not more than a few weeks ago. And as of about

9:00 this morning, there were 309 votes to stop the widening of Pumpkin Ridge Road um, in Brown County. And um I think what was interesting I as I mentioned last time if you look at this visual these votes in signing a petition are local. It's not somewhere up in Chicago or out California uh 70% of the votes are coming from Nashville, Columbus and Morgantown. So, you've got people in the community that are saying leave Pumpkin Ridge Road uh the way it is. Uh I'm I don't have time to read through all the remarks, but I did want to to do a couple highlights. One, and I won't mention the name, but Pumpkin Ridge Road is consistently empty, and we almost never encounter other hikers on Mount T. It's cons deeply concerning to me there's consideration to remove wildlife and spend millions of dollars developing or altering the area that has little loose or no significant demand. Here's another one. I do not want my tax dollars to be used to maintain a road that's been forced on Brown County residents. All Brown County taxpayers will have to pay for maintenance to a road nowhere that nobody wants. Now, uh, this individual also said at the, uh, September 17th meeting, Commissioner Clark made statements that we, the commissioners, have no intention of taking anybody's land. He stated, "Worst case scenario is we would walk away from this." Well, that's what I would vote for. Walk away. That's not what people That's not what people want. Um the thing that I I'm almost done. Uh the one other thing that I raised in a meeting last fall is um we believe that

one of the commissioners uh had Kevin has a conflict of interest. His family owns a logging business. I think some of us are speculating the reason you want to have a super highway is to get those logging trucks and heavy equipment in and out of there. And if that's the case, guess what? They're going to log Mount T safe for us and he's got a family or family member that has a way to gain from this project. I'm going to wrap up and just one more comment um and that is someone else that had made comments um on the petition page. I've heard from many neighbors neighbors who are opposed to this project and I have not personally spoken with anyone who supports it. If two or three of the commissioners uh approve the project, it grants INDOT the authority to use imminent domain, including seizure of private property. Okay. Uh Commissioner Clark said they he didn't want to take anyone property. There are alternate ways to address access without widening the road on the project. There's a lot of key questions to remain unanswered. Over time, the scope of DNR's plans has shifted and there is no clear detailed plan in place. I am not comfortable supporting a project where there's no clear plan and so many unresolved issues. As commissioners, we have a responsibility first and foremost to the citizens of Brown County. I've been here a long time. In most cases, I side with the people who live in and care for these communities. And this was written by Commissioner Ron Sanders which we support. We thank you. And that's all the comments I have. Thank you very much.

Thanks. [applause]

Barbara Nicks. Doctors must take an oath first do no harm. Elected officials should take the same oath. By signing a blind contract with Endot, the county commissioners will be harming the good people on Pumpkin Ridge Road. Harm one, the use of eminent domain to steal land from the homeowners. Land that has been in families for generations. Land that has meaning, land that is love, and land that does not meet requirements for imminent domain. harm too. They will not get just compensation for the land being stolen. Unlike elected officials, they will have to hire a lawyer with their own money to make sure the compensation is just inequitable. Harm three, the land that they get to keep will lose value. Not just the amount of land, but the aesthetics, and it will decrease its worth. A giant highway to a forest that's only 3/4 mile long, beloved trees, landscaped, etc. are plowed down for reasons that no one has yet been able to explain. The road being proposed is over a hill and every rational person knows this. Karm the water source for one family is close to the road and anyone will tell you with a fourth grade science degree asphalt, salt and chemicals are poisonous more harm. NDOT has canled over 300 projects due to funding. Why is this so important? It's not even a mile of roadway and they want a blind contract signed. Then they will do the studies. Then they will do the studies. They will not environmentalists or other experts. This is backass words. Studies should come first to see if it's even feasible without harming anybody.

Yeah,

their studies could find they need more land or a different route, more harm. When I called last year after finding out about this horrific use of eminent domain, I spoke with Kevin Patrick. I was trying to get a hold of Tim Clark, who at the time I thought was someone trustworthy. Mr. Patrick laughed about my concern and why would I complain? So, I sue Mr. Patrick is going to vote yes. When I did finally get a hold of Mr. Clark, I was met with silence. In the past, he's come out against eminent domain. So mind start my mind starts to wonder why he wants this. Why? He'd be throwing good people under the bus. Mr. Clark has been a strong advocate to opening up Indian Hill Trail. He posted a lot about it on Brown County Matters. All he needs is Endot to say yes. And it's okay if you don't look at me, Mr. Clark. We know you're gonna ignore me. Okay. All end needs is for Mr. Clark to say yes on the Pumpkin Ridge highway. I see a quid pro crow and or conflict of interest. I have no proof, but it's something to consider. And that begs the question, is all of this just a barse up about up here talking? Look, the bottom line is that this will hurt good, honest, hardworking people. We will have no control over the amount of hurt from how much land will be taken, how many trees, how much money will be offered, what's left. I think as a community we can come up with a better plan. Get Pumpkin Ridge, the highway department to come up with a plan that won't cause harm. If the purpose is only have access to Mount Tiny Forest, there's a much better idea. Use Salt Creek. No one gets hurt

here. Okay, think [applause] about the think about this for the future. Hoover is problematic. Think 5, 10 years down the line if more internet domain [clears throat] will have to be used to flatten the hill, widen the road, etc. Let us come up with a plan. We know the area better than NDOT. We respect the area and the land more than NDOT. And we can make deals better than NDOT. There is so much pain and sorrow in the world right now. Please do not add to it. [applause]

Everybody here. I'm Charlie Shaw. I'm preceding committee in Hamilton one township. I talked at the last meeting. Um, something that was just said today kind of kind of got me wondering. I think Tim just said that Brown County owns that road now. Is that correct? Cuz we had a conversation about that. Who owns that road? It's a county road.

Okay. There was a lot of conflict last time when we talked about that and I think you Mr. Cle. Yeah. The other thing that we talked about and I see the uh the layout is gone. That was a beautiful layout by the way. Uh we talked about narrowing the road. I think Tim you need to correct me on this is down to 18 ft 18 ft

with two ft on each side. Right. But what we really don't talk about and this is where it gets back to Mr. Clean on homeowners is the scar they're going to make. They go 70 feet beyond that up the hillsides. Right. So that's the scar that's going to be let there and all you have to do is go over to Yellowwood and see what kind of scar they did there between Yellowwood and Lam Ridge. So I just want to get that out. Again, we weren't being real honest on I don't believe when we just say well it's only a 20ft or 22 ft road. We don't talk about the scar that is created on both sides of that railroad. And I think that really needs to be out there and that's why the people who really don't want this to happen because it is a scar. It's going to be a scar I think on Brown County and I think I talked with you the last time. I think it ruins a lot of the essence of Brown County when we do those kind of things. So I appreciate the fact that you let me talk about this and bring this up. So thank you.

[cough] [clears throat]

Tim Ford. This has been a deal going on for a long time, but a longer deal has been going on out in Elkinsville on that bridge. The county has asked the DNR over and over to help finance repair that bridge and they've done nothing but stub their nose at the county and now they come back to the county and they want something from us and they want us to pay to maintain it. I don't understand why we would even consider working with them after they have stubbed us for years over access to their property. There's more property out there of theirs than anybody else's. And they will not put one dime. In fact, when something tried to get done out there, they fought the county. They shut it down. [clears throat] Why? Why would we work with them? Everybody says come up with a plan. The plan is do nothing at all. Leave that property back there alone. It's not just about that road. It's about all the property back there. That is one of the last places in Brown County where the wildlife actually has a place to live. The rattlesnakes and endangered species. What about those? It it means nothing to the DNR now [clears throat] because they want access. So, they got a way to make a dollar because that's what this is all about. They're not spending millions of dollars and not going to get a return off of it. Somebody's not being honest about that. That that just doesn't happen. That doesn't make sense. So, my plan is do nothing. Leave alone. Leave the property alone. I was I was actually happy when I heard the DNR took over that property. I thought, "Oh my

god, it's going to be saved. Nobody's going to build a subdivision." in turn is the worst nightmare possible. And from what I know about the Nature Conservancy, anytime they transfer property, there's a lot of restrictions on it, is there not, Bob? Yes, sir. What's going on with that? Because they just don't hand over property to be developed. It's about conserving nature. So, I'm against the road, but I'm going to save the property. [applause]

thought long and hard about this code this way that I took time to write. Can you please introduce yourself? My name is Chris Tuttle.

Thank you. I speak [clears throat] on behalf of myself and my wife Anton 10 years in this community and I've had nothing but headaches and heartaches with regards to the silliness that we always deal with with the commissioners and the issues that are sometimes frivolous that stab and hurt people. And uh I wasn't going to read from this. I was going to do it from the heart, but I think I would probably offend most of the audience that's here because I won't bite my tongue just to be politically correct. So, I'll stick to what I've already had planned here for this evening to justify something kind at least coming from the words that I can present to the commissioners that I could go home with. But I do hope you take the words that come from everyone's mouth that speaks here this evening as something to take home and pout upon and possibly even go pray upon to whoever you might pray about because you will be affecting the lives of most of the community. My name is Chris Tuttle. started. I stand here tonight not just as a property owner, not just as a member of the Brown County People's Assembly, but as a father, a neighbor, and a citizen who loves the land with every part of my being. This is not just about a road. This is about our homes. This is about the forest. This is about the sweat, sacrifice, and years of labor that built what we have. For over a decade, we have maintained the road ourselves. We cut the trees. We haul gravel. We grade the facilities. We try to keep everybody happy to the best of our ability. We took care of it because it mattered to us. It was ours to steward. And now we are told that an 6 to8 million blacktop project may come through and

take between 8 and 12 to 12 acres of my neighbors land as well as others of private property under the threat of imminent domain. Imminent domain is supposed to exist for true public necessity. It is not supposed to be a weapon. It is not supposed to be something families lie awake worrying about, wondering if today is the day that their land is taken from it. Under Indiana Code 3224-1, property may only be taken for legitimate public use and only after proper safeguards and good faith efforts. The burden of necessity rests on the government. It is not to rest on citizens to surrender their land or property, not to do so quietly.

[clears throat]

We have endangered species in this area. Rattlesnakes, flying squirrels, protected bird populations. We have fragile watersheds. We have erosion challenges that already strain the community. And yet, no comprehensive environmental impact documentation have been presented to justify clearcutting more than 100 ft of forest and paving a road that may see and many may see as unnecessary. This is a non-maintained county road that the neighbors have responsibly cared for. If improvements are needed, modest widening could address concerns. But replacing it with blacktop at somewhere between 6 and 8 million in cost. Why other county roads suffer from potholes and neglect rises or raises serious questions about priorities in this community and those who govern it. The Brown County's people assembly along with numerous advocacy groups and petition signers stand united in opposition to this project. This is not just a fringe concern. This is the voice of your constituents. We elected you to stand for us to protect us to exercise judgment not to yield automatically to pressures from the state. We are not asking for special treatment. We are not asking for we excuse me. We are not asking for special treatment. We are asking for restraint. We are asking for transparency. We are asking for justification before land is taken and ecosystems are altered forever. Our homes are not expendable. Our land is not expendable. Our land is not a line item.

Our community is not a blank canvas for projects that lack clear necessity. Please do not allow the the imminent domain to become a threat hanging over families who simply want to live in peace on land that they have earned. Stand with the people in your community. Do what's right here for our behalf as well as yours also. Thank you. [applause]

MELINDA Moffet really have notes here. Just something to keep me on track. How'd you guys sleep last night? Because we didn't sleep well. Yeah, just like he said, I'm so concerned about nature. You're going to destroy the beautiful Brown County that we chose to live in. That's what's going to happen. [clears throat]

They're going to destroy the trees, the wildlife, not to mention take our property. [clears throat] Tim, I want to talk to you because I met you almost two years ago in this very room over a different matter at APC meeting and you were running for commissioner, the seat you're sitting in right now. and you seemed like a very genuine, sincere, caring person. You said you must be going through hell. You're right. We were still kind of that's that situation's still not solved. But guess what? You're putting us through more hell because we've been dealing with this for so long. And I gave you my vote that's put you in that seat right now. You're there to speak for us. We put you there for that reason. You need to remember why you're sitting in that seat. It's for these people who voted for you. We're asking you to say no. Please remember why you're here. [applause] Hello Jason Dickmire. So the notes I have says that the current road provides adequate access for the amount of traffic that uses it. People I mean you you can't drive back in there. You park at a little big tiny parking hole and you go walk through the ticks and you you find some copper heads and get bed, get some shaggers on you, you know? Pretty lovely place.

Uh the DNR's already logged, right? How' they get them logs out of there? Did they use a helicopter or did they get them down Pumpkin Ridge Road? So it already sports semis full of logs, big logs, bunches of them. for years. Foley Hardwoods had it before that and they logged it. [clears throat] How do they get them logs out? Pumpkin Ridge Road. It's It's big enough. It's just fine the way it is.

Uh, so why hasn't the county got it got got a few estimates together there on what it cost for them to to deal with it? Nobody's ever got any estimates. It's just end dot end dot end dot. Well, before you can even find out what estimates you need, you need to have an easement. And I've asked commissioners personally in this office right over here and in this meeting before Matt asked you on the road and nobody can provide it. INDOT can't provide it. They can't find it. It doesn't exist. So, how's it a county road if you don't got an easement for it? You have to have an easement. Where is it? Can you find it? Do you know where it is?

Blank. Draw your own blanks up here. Okay. Uh there's grants available. You know, if you need me to take a vacation day off work, come into your office and we can look through some grants and apply for them. I'll help you. I'll give you a vacation day. I'll come in here and help you do that. Then we can go that route. Uh, but a two-lane paved road already exists to Mountain T State Forest. It's called Salt Creek Treat. The forest owns all the way to Miller Road. It's two lanes. It's paved. Sorry. Improved. Why you got to wipe out another lane? It's It's unnecessary there. There's no need for it. A gravel parking lot off the Salt Creek Road would provide multiple accesses to the same property. Multiple accesses, not just one. Uh the agreement there's I got a few issues with their agreement. Uh the agreement now two days ago, I guess it came out with a new revision. Well, there's a typo. Section 13. It's made it through three revisions. I mean, a $8 million contract ought to have a spell check. Go ahead and look it over and see if you can find it. That it would makes me mad if I had to sign an agreement over 100 bucks. You're going to agree on one over $8 million. Section 13. Section 14 gives up all power to INDOT. We have no more say in it. If you sign this, it's over. Endot has the soul. I can read it word for word if you need me to. Look it up. It's on there. Number 14. Uh the petition.

I want to know what other people thought. And I deliberately only shared it locally on three Facebook pages plus our personal one. the Brown County Chatter Refreshed and Bean Blossom page. Okay, I didn't share it to Columbus or Ninoa or anywhere else. Want to know what people right here wanted and they told you there's there's several signatures that aren't on there due to technical barriers that folks couldn't figure it out or what have you. So it the number is higher than that and they're local people. There's names on there. Okay. The people who work for INDOT. People who work for INDOT's names are on the petition. Hello. If I don't if I don't tell you something about this project, there's something wrong with it. Now, here's something else I got. I've been in several of these meetings, and the ones that I don't get to come to, I watch on YouTube, and I've yet to see a single person stand right here at this podium and say, "Go for it. We want this road." Zero people have come to this podium and said, and spoke in favor of it. None of them. Now, the new agreement uh you didn't post on your your m your matters page, but I got a hold of it anyway. Um there is some issues here that it's just an agreement that says go ahead with the project. It don't list the project. How wide's the road? It don't list that the road's going to be this wide. It just says go ahead with the project. It doesn't list the construction limits. It just says go ahead. Project's a project. Go ahead. And you

already you already know what number 14 says. Just I just told you. Endow's got the final say. They can do whatever they want. Doesn't say whether or not it's gravel or whether it's going to be asphalt. So, I'm going to end with uh the people told you what they want and you've been elected. to support those people. So, I'm asking you to vote no. My name is John Mueller. And I I want to start off by saying I think what's most disturbing to me is is Tim and Kevin, we haven't heard justification in your minds for this road. we're we're approaching a vote and we haven't heard why you're for it and that's that's a problem. Um, now I was told to start off positively. So I think there is some agreement within the people in this room on both sides DNR and the residents and I don't speak for the residents but as I as I talked to to neighbors and whatnot you know there is agreement that Pumpkin Ridge Road should be improved. I think as talking to Jack Seaffort, he said we just want a road to an improved road and I don't question him in that. And I don't think the neighbors are opposed to an improved road. So that's what's frustrating about that this whole issue this this controversy for the last really actually year. Uh we got our notes in what late February or or early March.

So, you know, what we are in disagreement on is, you know, the excessive cost to scalp this this approach to a small state park. It's a 4,000 ft driveway to a tiny state forest, not a park. Um, if DNR can influence the governor's office to come up with 6 to8 million for this irresponsible project, they can go back to the governor's office and come up with a community conforming and situationally appropriate solution. It is Brown County Commissioner's responsibility to listen to their community and let DNR know we're not against road improvement. were against INDOT's inability to conform this project to community uh to county appropriate standards. And and as we've gone through this whole thing and I I sent uh Tim a PDF presentation with some other pictures that have been outlined by this gentleman here that spoke earlier about the scalping of Yellowwood Road. Um, residents are paying about on average and mostly the telephone company around $6,000 a year to maintain this road. And Commissioner Patrick said it costs about $150,000 to pave a county road. This is 3/4 that's per mile. This is 3/4 of a mile. So $6,000 a year. Nothing out of the budget from the county. Residents aren't complaining. Chris doesn't complain, he just does it, right? And compared to 6.4 to8 million for an expansion project of what accounts to a driveway to a tiny state park. That's

what makes no sense. And and just go like what you said, sir. go to Yellowwood Road and look at what DNR or INDOT did to that road from Lambridge Ridge from Landom Ridge to the park. It's 200 plus feet wide in areas and then as soon as it hits the park it's about 30 ft wide. What makes sense of that? That is that is so when we use words like gluttonous and do not understand this that's what we're talking about. It's just inappropriate at best. So, this is an example of a bloated state project pushed down the line from one irresponsible or financially uncaring bureaucrat after another. We are asking the Brown County Board of Commissioners to finally be respon the be responsible elected citizens to make the right decision and kill this overfunded project. This is what responsible governance looks looks like. I want to be clear and say to you as commissioners, a vote for this project is a vote for unnecessary abuse of taxpayer funds, our our [clears throat] earnings. A vote in favor of frivolous private land seizure is a yes vote here for this project. And that's grotesque under the circumstances. It's not a safety issue. It's not even a need. There are other options. It's just walk on the residents and the taxpayers along this road. That's the easiest thing to do. And then it's also a vote against voters and taxpayers in our community. So we ask that you do the responsible thing. We

all talk about these government issues. How did this happen? How did they spend this much money on on this? This is ridiculous. It's our It's our earnings. And And I know I I guarantee you've you've thought that, Tim. You I' I've been impressed with you. And why you could search your soul to vote and push this thing along? That is disappointing. If that happens, I ask that you do the responsible thing and vote no. Thank you. [applause]

I'm Rich Stanley. Uh, since there is almost universal opposition to the current INDOT proposal, I would like to see the commission take a different vote today. I would like the commission to vote on a motion to investigate a county-led option for Pumpkin Ridge Road. While that motion might be better, it's just a general motion if you want. It could be a very specific motion. For example, you could vote on a motion to determine how much would it cost to take a dozer or an excavator up there, cut out three pull outs for cars to pass by, and then lay down some gravel on those new pullouts and be done. Arguably, nothing more needs to be done for Pumpkin Ridge Road, if anything at all is necessary. So, how much would it cost to do that? And what if the results of that investigation shows that it would take $50,000 to fix this whole issue? If that were the case, why are you considering spending $6 million when it might only take $50,000 to fix this problem? I just don't see how this is fiscally responsible when you have not investigated the less expensive options, [clears throat] especially when a less expensive option would be much more popular than the current INDOT proposal is.

Yeah.

Thank you. [applause] Got to get this down there. Hi, my name is Dina Patrick and I am a county resident. I live here in town. Um, you have listened to people who live on Pumpkin Ridge. You have walked the road in 8° temperatures and you have had public meetings where any resident could have attended and spoken in favor of or against this project. On 716 to 25, Nick Battle from DNR said that according to the Indiana statute, they will revoke the improvements on Pumpkin Ridge Road back to Brown County to maintain all the way up to the state force. Have you, our commissioners, sent a survey out to all Brown County taxpayers asking them how they feel about having INDOT/DNR spending millions of dollars on a road to a very small state forest? And have you made it clear to all Brown County taxpayers that the improved road will then be turned over to the Brown County Highway Department for maintenance and improvements in the future? I do not feel that you have done this. This room should not have to be packed to influence your decision. You work for all Brown County residents and even though I choose to live in town and I pay local income tax and I do not want my tax dollars spent on maintaining a road to nowhere when the people who live there are already take care of it and DNR has not been fully transparent as to future plans for Mount T.

here. [applause] Nick B and DNR have not reached out to all Brown County taxpayers to ask what we want. They've only reached out to the people who live there and I guess that is what their requirement is. I say vote no to any improvements to the road. As a Brown County taxpayer for the past 34 and a2 years, I don't want to pay for maintenance on something that DNR is not willing to disclose their future plans. Leave Pumpkin Ridge Road and the residents alone. Don't take any more money out of the pockets of all Brown County taxpayers for this project that the former commissioner signed up for.

I prefer to have my tax dollars be used for bridges to be repaired. Thank you. Good job. [applause] Any additional comments?

Good evening, gentlemen. Sherry Mitchell. You're going to be standing on your record after today, and I will hold you accountable. I think we all know that. If that record includes seizing your neighbor's land and/or or for an Indianapolis driven project that many oppose, you risk more than just an election. You risk losing the trust of the community you serve. That's right. Yep. Yeah. Please be careful what you're doing here. Thank you. [applause]

[snorts] Hello, my name is John Sarnicki. Um, I don't have live on Pumpkin Ridge. I live off Hoover. I don't have as much skin in the game as as these community members do, but but um I just want to say I I noticed some things here. Um, we all stood up and and said the pledge of allegiance to that flag and and you all put your hands on your hearts and you said you pledge allegiance to the republic for which it stands. And what is that republic? The republic is where the power is supremely held by the people. This is the republic

that you all turned around and put your hands over your heart to swear to to uphold. And you know uh I am a student of history. my my bachelor's degree was in history. I I earned that on the GI Bill. And uh I'm often reminded of the the story of Benjamin Franklin being asked what kind of government did did they put in place during the uh Philadelphia Constitutional Convention? He said, "It's a republic if you can keep it." That's right. And to vote against this republic is tyranny. That's right.

And by God, resistance to tyranny is obedience to God. So, if you put your hand on your heart and you swore to that republic, this is the republic that you swore to uphold. And I hope you'll just keep that in mind because I've never heard anyone here the couple meetings that I've been to in favor of this. It is all in the community opposing this tyranny. So, eminent domain is tyranny. These people just want to keep their private property. So, let us all take sir. What's your name [applause] again?

What is your name again? Hi, my name is Ty Goodwin. Uh, I live off of Hoover Road. We're actually neighbors with John. Just spoke. Um, you know, humans by nature are very, very destructive. And the the folks that are in power and that have all the money, they don't put forth this much money and this much effort in a project unless they're going to get something out of it.

So, what is it that y'all are getting out of it? What is it that the state's getting out of it? Uh some time ago I was sent from a neighbor um an estimate of how wide this road was supposed to be. And Hoover runs right through my property. I actually own the land that's under it and across from my house. [clears throat] And the original measurement that somebody sent me was wider than where Hoover is on my property. So, if this little driveway into the state forest is going to be wider than Hoover, are you coming from my land next? Probably.

So, I I can literally walk to Pum Ridge Road. How close I am. And my neighbor behind me butts up against Mount T. Right. In the four years that I've lived in Brown County, I have found three endangered species on my 2 and a half acres. And that's residential lot. Not saying what lives in Mount T, right? They in history they used to say that a squirrel could run from the coast to Mississippi without touching the ground because of all the trees, the beautiful part of Indiana. Well, how much of that has been flattened? How much is left? [applause]

If there's nobody else, I'll chime in. Well, we'll close it off for public uh public discussion. Bring it back up to the board discussion. Yeah. Um, I think the gentleman from NOT is here. Could you possibly come up front and answer a few questions maybe if you could Nicole or Nick about the project engineer? I'm talking about the DNR. You said instead I'm sorry.

I'm I'm as nervous as anybody in this room. Um, [clears throat] basically what they're saying they they don't know what you're going to do back there. Have you finalized or you got any ideas in your head what you're going to actually do back there? I think I crafted a letter to the commissioners. Did you not get a copy of that? I'm having trouble getting copies. So, okay. If you uh it was always intent and still is the intent to keep it as it is. It would be primitive recreation area, mostly hiking. He can wrote it as it is. Excuse me. Keep the road as it is. Please keep the comments from the audience down while he's responding.

So, yes, we don't anticipate any changes in the near term or the long term. Well, I remember you originally said something about getting trucks and trailers back there. For some reason, that stuck in my mind. Yes. Now there the question that was posed to be was were you going to increase or bring in uh horse riders and trailers and stuff like that. We've always we've never ever said that was our intent. Okay. But the road would be wide enough for that in the future if that was the change. Yes. I mean it could be. I mean it's up to the design folks to make that decision.

I looked up a little bit. It seems that you've got three primary state operations that you let OVs on. You got Redbird, right? You got Inner Lake. At Inner Lake, you let Jeeps, trucks, dirt bikes, ATVs, four-wheelers side by side, and then you got Lawrence County. Um, so I was just wondering if in the future there's a possibility of that. the uh the two first two you re you you listed were uh outdoor recreation areas, right? They're strip min areas, right?

The the it was determined many many years ago that that the outdoor recreation people who had these vehicles were looking for a place to recreate. So that place because it's been turned upside down ecologically has been destroyed. And so we have in DNR's policy other than those that I'm aware of is not to allow art ATV, UTV, uh four-wheel drive trucks, anything on on state lands. Yeah. Well, that was kind of a question. And when it gets a lot of unknown facts,

you know, we we don't know what the cost of maintenance is going to be on that road, you know. Um, and I was wondering, you know, going through the contract, um, are we going to be able to handle all the wordings to comply? It's pretty intense. Uh, you know, in a big county that's got endless amount of money and people maybe, but it'd be a strain for us to honor this. And if we don't honor it, we get stuck with a lot of things. uh legal bills. The legal bills are on us. If for some reason the citizens uh decide to sue, uh the county is going to get stuck with the legal bills. And we just signed [clears throat] claims for $14,000 for litigation. I'm constantly seeing litigation bills. We got all We got all we can handle already. We don't need to pile more on top of it. The other thing is I done asked you what DNR is really going to do back here. You said nothing. Uh, and how's this actually going to affect the landowners? We don't know. We we don't know how it's going to turn out. You know, and the cost we got, it sounds like we got plenty of money to do it, but we really don't know what it's going to cost. And we don't know what the cost could be to the county in the future. We don't know exactly where the road's going to go yet. It could change once you guys start corn or you find artifacts. All that could change. Um, and is this new agreement? I didn't see it. Is it in there, Kevin? How wide the road's actually going to be?

No. No, they don't even know how the road's going to be. Be careful there because there was added that stipulated that any discussions and exceptions that were identified in all the discussions we have done to date will be honored. Well, and they presented the the new plan. You were here at the meeting. It's it's not in here. And so the litigation's a problem for me. The black top. Did you guys ever decide whether it's going to be gravel or black top? Don't It's another unknown. Um and said that the governor requested this. Was it the former governor or the current governor? Former. Former. Okay,

just trash it. Does Mr. Braun even know about this? I don't know the answer to that. Pardon? I do not know the answer to that. Okay, start. Um,

this is probably not going to be good for me, but I do want to I do want to read this. Me and this board up here, we don't get along very well. Okay. I've not had positive experiences in regard to trust with them and I'm not comfortable sharing personal information because of past issues with them. This contract, you know, I'll just go ahead and make a motion that we deny it because this is out of you guys's league. We would be held responsible for legal. Now, here's where I'm a little fuzzy, and you [clears throat] two can explain it to me, I'm sure. Is DDOT's money going to pass through the auditor's office? Are we responsible for dealing with all the contracts, all the contractors? Maybe that's for you back there, indot lady. Come on up, Nicole. Come on up. explain to me and the people how this is all going to work. Is the contract. It sounds to me like we're responsible for the contracts. Uh dealing with the contractors. Uh we got to provide insurance. We got to pay any legal fees.

Well, a lot of that is boilerplate pardon. A lot of that is boilerplate text as well. So, INDOT will handle and manage the contractor. I can't do anything will handle the contract. They they will deal with all the contractors. We'll be handling the contractor because we're the vehicle for that. But in here, I think it says it's us. No. So again, it goes that as Nicole is trying to say is that's a boilerplate contract with NDOT. And then the conversations that we have had with our attorneys and their attorneys is that anything is not applicable to us. So the actual agreement is that NDOT is acting in as the project manager.

If if there's a lot of language in here also that says if something on our end don't work, you guys can stop the project and it can be held up. I mean, what can we possibly think [clears throat] would happen to where you guys would stop? I can't think of an instance that would be the case. Yeah. If we got caught with a um alien working up there, that could be a problem.

You know, there's times to fix this stuff, but it causes delays is what I read. So, I don't know. You know, I support these people. Um, I'll make a motion that we say no because there's no way. I have a question. Well, there's Wait a minute. There's no way in hell I'm signing it.

Okay. Is there a second? We're still in the discussion phase. John, I have a question for you on on on the on the project, John. And John, I I agree with you on the agreement on improvement of the road. John, what's a typical county road going to an 1100 1200 acre state forest? What's a typ what's typical in the state of Indiana? It's this is probably one of the worst we've got in our portfolio. Yes. I mean two lane 18t. Is that pretty much most paved? Yes.

Okay. So nothing, this is not out of the ordinary as far as it's it's within the typical norm for DNR and for counties to provide a road going to state asset that state taxpayers contribute to. That's correct. Okay. Thank you, Kevin. Anything you want to address or No, I've looked at everything. We covered had the conversations we've done. I think again I hate to say this is being due diligence but we've met we've heard you are you listening we've never got to hear from you on what your justification is for it

nothing never hear what you say you say that there's there's there's there's state tax dollars that own own that property back there mountain that they can access that now that comment is as if to say the public can't access it and and the public seems to choose not to want to. And I don't know that it's because of the road. You know, if they want to get back there, they can get back there. That that's a that was a that's just a a wrong statement. What's a wrong statement? The that your implication is is that you need to allow the public access to their property. They've always had access to that property. The norm within the state that road is is one lane in a lot of areas.

Um one and a half. Okay. Okay. So, so, so, so, so, so, so that's the case. No, that's the case. So, is is Yellow Wood a better example of what of of of a of a of an option to access? We go from 200 ft to 30 ft. That's not what we want. This is ridiculous. And you talk, excuse me, please talk about stop the public comments. I guess we can open it back up if you've got something to say. I mean, we finally hear from you guys. Although, so yeah,

we heard everything you said. This is not nothing that you brought to the table is new. We've heard it. Um I've read the petitions. I've heard your comments. Um these were repeated multiple times. Um and and those and they're addressed. The other No, they weren't addressed. Salt Creek Road was not addressed. And and and quite frankly, Nicole, I appreciate it, but about 4 hours ago, you said we'll examine Salt Creek option once the document gets signed. That is wrong. and and why wasn't there outreach prior to any of this to see what the what the community's inputs were and what those options are. Salt Creek is a solid option here. It doesn't hurt anybody.

DNR owns that property all the way to the road and that road has a line in the middle which means it's 19 ft wide and it's not a dangerous curve to get to that road. It's a straightaway. I sent you pictures of that. It is a much better option. It doesn't include imminent domain and and it puts the onus on DNR and it allows for a second access point to the public property.

John, that wasn't a viable that wasn't a viable option. They talked about they'll consider it they'll consider it as part of the planning, but they looked at it's not a viable option. Is that what you were talking about? I think that's 20 studies until after everything's okay. And so well studies cost money and and the agreement leads to starting the study. I know of no lawyer that would say okay sign a blind contract where you have no control. So it's true the contract does include the checkpoints of commissioners which is good stage two as well. But you got to have signed contract first.

Well all of that should happen before time and money. Well, then do those first to see that if it's feasible. Why hurt? But Nicole, there's no construction that's outlined in in the agreement. Correct. Nicole, could you go to the bluffing bags, please? There's there's but there's no there's no construction. Well, because the the plan will be developed. So, the design will be developed. That is part of the stupid.

Why are we here? We're not being led with an actual plan. We're being left with a blank piece of paper that doesn't allow any of us to have a voice. You say you're listening to us, but you're not. You're sitting there with smug hooks on your face that are upsetting to all of us. It affects the land in which we purchased in this county. We're we're all active members of this community who stand what they believe in and what WE'RE FOR. YOU GUYS ARE HERE FOR A PURPOSE. THAT'S THE BENEFIT OF US, THE PEOPLE. You need to calm down. Calm down. Calm. I'm sending you out to the mic the micro sir.

He's being passionate because we care about our land. I would ask you guys, do you want this to happen in your front yard or your backyard? I don't think so. So, I'm I was question if I would want this to occur

where I live and I'm going to answer that question. No, please. I'm going to answer that question. The answer that I gave her is I don't have a problem with it. I live on a 12 to 14 foot wide single lane gravel road. If I were approached in such a scenario, I would say yes, let's widen this road because it has blind hills. It does not have room to pass. You have similar capabil similar issues and challenges as you go closer back to the state park or the state forest. Okay. Well, you're destroying the front door to that state forest is what you're doing. I think I think the point is again to your point Kevin you we agree to improve that road from 13 ft

not not to 110 all right not to scalp that thing out see it's ridiculous obscene drive down Yellowwood Road you can you can snicker I have been down Yellowwood Road just stop laughing at these people I'm not laughing so we're finally getting some feedback county and I don't live on this side of the county, 77 years old, and they still haven't I haven't never heard nothing that they said they was going to do. Why are you spending that kind of money when state highways need it and stuff like that? Safety issues. Do you agree with this? You're shaking your head. Yes. You're behind this.

I'm shaking my head that the funding is tied to access roads to DNR state forest. So, if the if the money is not used, it cannot be moved to another project. That sounds like government bureaucracy.

Just really correct that statement. You need to correct that statement. Those phones just don't go poof. They go back to the general fund. They can be reallocated the next year. They should be. They get fixed. 46. Go fix Kevin's road. He wants it. [laughter] It just doesn't magically disappear.

You made a statement. Let's drill into comments. Nicole, I've got some questions. This is back of the board. Nicole, I've got some questions. As we go through this project, um we started off with a with a grand design with Grand Collins. We had the feedback to say almost identical to what we had today. Um, you guys adjusted, gave us the minimum standard you that you would fund and and approve the 18 ft kind of kind of window, which is normal for any other county that has a has a road that's going back to a state state uh forest, right?

Okay. So, we're not out of the norm when it comes to a road. We're not out of the norm within the norm within the state of Indiana. It's on the commissioners. That's a county road. It's on us our responsibility basically to have a safe road that people can get to to get to that to get to that. That's a county responsibility. When you look at the road, and no one's looked at that, and everyone says it costs too much. Well, I don't know how many highway engineers we have out in the audience, but it's expensive. When you look at the terrain, and we looked at the at the at the plan that you guys have, we looked at the elevations. We looked at it by sections. You're moving a lot of dirt. You've got a lot of a lot of water that's coming down, and you've got to manage that water. more culverts.

And when we talk about clear cut, we're not clear cutting the side of your side of your hills. That came that was extremely shortened, narrowed to have the minimum amount that we would need in order to build a road. So, it was it was reduced on on those construction fees. And as we go through, people say, "Gee, we as a county ought to figure out how much it's going to cost." We can't do that without a plan. I'd go to Eric and say, "Hey, Eric,

give me a ballpark for how much it would cost to do that road." He wouldn't tell me without without having a plan. We typically on any project that we have, we have a preliminary engineering report that we pay for Indian Indian Hill was $400,000 for a report just to narrow out the ent the entrance ramps onto the onto the onto the uh crossing. $400,000 just for the plan, not counting the million six that we're going to have to build to put that in there if once we find that particular money. So, it's expensive on this. when you look at the documentation was like $1.2 million. That's a lot of studies. And when you look at the phases of this project going through, we've got a review on all this. And for 9 10 months when we worked with these people, they've been accommodating. When you mention you don't like this, we want to take the land.

You mentioned other things. We've changed it. And you're saying we're taking a lot of land. We're just the only land you need is expand that road to have a two-lane road going back to the park. That's the land that you need. It doesn't say that the document you're wanting to vote on. In doing that, you have to make a second road that clearcuts other people's property because people wanted because we wanted to we wanted to keep the road. That's that's a So now the question when you get into that and you don't know once you get in there and you look at the different studies that required as part of that you got the ecological thing. So if there was an option on Salt Creek, you know, you said you'd look at it, but man, when you look at it, you look at the class, if you're familiar with floodways, if you're familiar with DNR and what it takes to put a bridge in across a floodway, you it's it's it's [clears throat] not done, Charlie.

Okay. And you're not recognized at the podium. Okay. I listen to you. It's the the decisions. What I have a problem with I heard 22T and yet we go 17 ft down at each side as a scarie and we're running the essence of Brown County. It's 18t on each side. Why don't you be honest? It's 18 foot with two foot shoulders and that's 22. And Nicole, I guess my my other my other question would get in in involved in the project and we talked if we can start on a common ground of improving the road.

Are there adjustments that could be well when we talk about construction limits? Are there options? The concern is why the hell did you want

Yellow Creek Yellow Lake Road was a was contentious in this county because they ended up clear cutting as much as you could on the side because of the slopes because of the drainage and when you go through it's it's just it's different you know they just they just widened it out and that's the perception that people are having saying gee whiz pumpkin ridge is going to be the same thing we're going to clear cut all that area when it comes to the construction zone it's going to look pretty ugly uh during the construction construction phase, but then it's like, okay, um, how much of that construction limit, how much are we talking a clear cut there? Are we talking a selective thing? What's that look like?

I mean, when we go through this project, I'd really like as we go through these phases, I'd really like to keep people updated on on how this project is going through and what we can do. Can he stop it in the middle if we don't like it? No, you give it up. So, it's a a blind. I was asking Dick, please come to the Jesus Christ. I'm I'm sorry, Commissioner. Make sure I understand your question. Yeah, I mean we Yes. I mean, we we have estimated acreage that would need to be uh disturbed, cleared to for the project. We can, as I've said numerous times, we continue to refine that. We are still early in design. I c certainly hope that it will continue to go down. Um but if you're if you're asking like my how much at this point in time, I just don't I just don't know.

And is it is it somewhat flexible? You're not hard since you have construction limits. It's not like you're going with a bulldozer flattening that whole area, are you? I wouldn't call anything fixed. Um standards can we can go below standards as long as it's approved by you as the future owner of the facility in INDOT. Um that's why we have checkpoints [clears throat] during the project to to be able to discuss and hear input and those sorts of things and continued public involvement that we're required to do on projects like this.

And see that was a point on on kind of a phase strategy on all these different decision points. It's just not going to get away. We've got the review and approval authority and yes, INDOT has the ultimate authority as as they should because it's their money. They're accountable for it. But yet, we have our input. We've heard your input and I think we can make the adjustments as we're going through on this particular project. They don't have a plan. We're telling you tonight, we don't want any more adjustments. We want you to shut it down because they didn't come. You can't give them no plan on what you're doing to start with. How are they going to vote? How you guys going to vote on that? Wait until they present a plan. Tim, do you trust your attorney? He had a great idea. That was an excellent idea from your attorney. Trust him. You should listen to him.

Indiana is the number one worst state highways in the US. And here they're going to waste that kind of money over there on the little road. That was a that was a state of Indiana. That was an INDOT decision. It's not a county decision. at the end when this well as as to repeat when that state when the Mount T state forest was deeded to the state and then we accepted that state previous commissioners asked and they knew what the cost of putting the road in the two-lane road they asked INDOT for support asked DNR and INDOT to help fund a two-lane road going to the state

but we voted you in because you were different [laughter] Jesus politician What year was I hope you both have to pause it until we get a real tal and we talked about I could address a lot of the concerns I did in the in the paper we did and I sent out to the owners. We addressed all the concerns that you had. Um, who you have? Why do you want this? Why do you want this? Just lies upon lies. Why do you want this, Tim?

Well, here we go. Explain yourself. Let us understand. Why do you want this so damn bad? I don't know what I could possibly say or do that would change anybody's mind. I mean, you guys were adant from the beginning on what your concerns were. That plan has changed since then. Do you recall that first meeting? What was it in August when when everyone stood up? We had the same kind of passion at that particular meeting that we had. We had a 22ft road, had two foot shoulders, um had had construction limits that went up the side of these side of these bridges.

We listened, they adjusted, we brought it down, we asked, "Give me an approved road, the minimum standard that you'll accept and approve." County doesn't have money to put in there to bring it up to any kind of standard if you're familiar with the engineer. Doesn't need it. need a we haven't been doing a good enough job for your non-maintain. There are grants available. Everybody already has access. Yeah. Okay. And they get there just fine. Those five cars that come maybe once a week. All right. Well, there are grants available. Anything any any more up here? I know that I'd like I know that. Make a motion. I entertain a motion. I'll take it. I'll make a motion. We say no

because there's no way in hell I'm signing it. And I don't think you guys actually know what you're signing. Uh do I have a second? It's a blank check. It's a blank check. There's no second. There's no second. So, I'd like to make another motion.

Um I think Rich Stanley might have something here we probably should look at. the people obviously don't want what's getting crammed down their throats. Um he suggested we do an investigation to try and just do the bare minimum to make it work for everybody. U you know it's an investigation. It's it's it's not a done deal. Uh I make a motion we investigate to see what we could possibly do. I mean we have millions of dollars worth of equipment. We have gravel stacked pile tied. We have culverts, you know, and you said we're responsible for the road. We haven't been responsible. We've been irresponsible.

That's right. And you got rock piled high. I'm glad to know that I'm working all these chop work on this road. You're not giving us any gravel. What's $2,000 to the county board to to bring out $2,000? Bring $2,000 worth of gravel. I'll show you how to make it look like six. Yeah. And right here meetings. Columbia County to look at this. I don't know what that means. So, we're going to hire our own engineer to come up with a plan. Let's Let's investigate it. Didn't we have um an engineering firm? I know Mr. Allen passed, but we still have a contract with the company. I mean, there's there's other unmaintained roads in a lot worse shape that probably don't have half as many people living on them.

Let's let's make an effort, Dave Waggler, to have that done in a month. Yep. You sure would. You know what? Do you What do you think? What do you Are you ready to drop the hammer on these people? I'm not dropping any hammer. INDOT. INDOT is going to fund a plan, the same kind of quality of plan that we would need to estimate what would what it would cost the county to do. We can't do this with the resources we have. We have not even let us take care of it the way we've been doing it, please. We're begging you. WE PUT YOU IN OFFICE. WE'RE BEGGING YOU. WHY MAKE US SKIP IT TO help you keep me on my knees?

Well, let's I make a motion we table until we do a better investigation because this this don't fly for me at all. Well, Ron, you okay, Kevin uh looked at that. We met with INDOT several times. You weren't there at the meeting. Didn't choose to be there. Um correct. We ran this through attorneys two or three times. We're comfortable with this. We corrected the the questions that we had. So, we're comfortable with that. I like the fact that we got a phase plan. So, when we can make adjustments as we go through this, we can determine and we can take that improved road. We can make those adjustments, but we can't do it without an engineering plan. We can't do it without committing to the agreement.

So, the end state ideally on this particular road is it it looks better than what it looks like now. Um, that would be that would be the goal. When we did the walk through, we talked about uh they were going to put a retaining wall in so it would require less less land. We talked about the different soil options that you had uh to manage the water, demands the runoff, to manage the drainage. And the problem here is we don't there's not a road bed in in that in on that road. There's not a road bed. And then the terrain, the the slope, the water, uh the lack of coverts, the maintenance would be without doing it right, the maintenance would be higher on county citizens. And we maintain what? 138 gravel roads. 138 miles gravel.

Okay. So, I think we're going to turn it over to a second. We have a pretty good idea of what it takes to maintain a gravel road. Um, and this road we wouldn't even take on because it's really not at the level if it was a private drive at the end. You just said it right there. You haven't had to take it off in the last 10 years. Me and neighbors HAVE LESSONS. KEEP DOING IT. I apologize. We haven't made it wider. If I get with John Mueller, can John and I make that decision and you guys look at this a year FROM NOW VERSUS SPENDING MONEY THAT ISN'T THERE THAT COMES FOR FREE over here. The state force is open in 2020. The commissioners went through at the time probably about a year soon after that working with DNR and to get the funding upgrade.

So this has been going on for quite a while. We just kind of inherit it and we worked through this particular process. Your decision already without I'm explaining what the process is. So the idea is to put in an approved road. The standard within the state is a two-lane road to get for the for citizens that also are stakeholders in a state asset a state force to get there. So a two-lane road and we can go gravel or we can go paved. I think we had that option. can when MD takes over when we get that's I don't okay

we can go gravel or we can go pave decision have been made depends on the a lot of factors but that's things we communicate throughout the life cycle of this project so there's not going to be any kind of surprises INDOT also agreed to put in I think you guys asked for white pines and screens um can do that okay but there's options to doing that so ideally at the end of this project It looks better than than what it does now. That would be the goal. If we can adjust land, it's gone.

We can adjust, make things smaller, do a little this, do a little that as we go through, get the engineering studies. Probably different areas of the terrain will allow different things. We'll be we can be flexible adjustment and adjust what we can to to get a two-lane road in there for the citizens of Indiana. You cannot be flexible with these people. They've already bought me. All right. Any other comments? So you ask good question Tim. Final comment sir.

Thank you sir. Um you talk about the transparency and and it has occurred. No one can deny that. Um my question is you're sitting here telling these people that um this road is going to be 18t wide with twoft shoulders. What if it isn't? Because they have as we all know final determination. What if it isn't? Can you sue them? Can the people here sue them because you told them in a public meeting? Can they sue you? Yeah.

Y because you sat here and told them that you went through, you had all this transparency, the project's been done this way and that way and they've agreed to this and that and the other, but you don't have any of that in writing. None of it. And you sure as hell don't have a guarantee. So if it changes, do they get to sue you? No, that's my question. [applause] You also met out together and discussed it without the public involved. You guys ain't supposed to be getting together out making little plans outside the meetings working together.

The governor's already decided stuff down. bring it back up up to the table. Any further discussion? Anything else, Mr. Sanders? I think it's disgusting. And Kevin, I'll do a final thing. I'm confident we're we've end up we've done it for 10 months now. Uh we've had dozens of conversations. I know I have. We met, we talked, we talked about the options on this. Kevin and I both have project management backgrounds on this thing. So, we're not as intimidated uh by the scope of the contract. I'm not Oh, you're going to point to the guy that

we asked. We asked for phase plan on the gant thing so we put those decision points in there and so we can adjust. um can all of a sudden after 10 months or they type say hey we got them to sign now let's do whatever we wanted back to thing that's not going to happen says you that's what the document says you gave them a represent these people why you go against this many people sitting here tell you we don't want it to work for us not in a final thing folks I've had a lot of people come to me and say they wanted this project but there's no way they should where are be no witness. This is why this is why they're not going to show up.

This is why that's not really the job in WHICH YOU WERE VOTED AND PUT IN PLACE for you will be voted out. Mr. You gave me a derogatory comm. I think I owe you one. I didn't I'm going to second what Miss Nick said out there. I've come to believe you may BE EVIL. YEP. COUNTY BOARD of the county before the board. Please ignore it. They don't want it. None of us do. And and other people from other parts of the county HAVE SHOWED UP HERE TONIGHT AND OTHER NIGHTS on the meetings that you've had. And and they tell you the same thing. We don't want it.

We don't live over there. We don't want it. He's basically telling So why are you guys so adamant about Let me tell you what's going to happen. And that's going to go over there and they're going to smirk and spit on their land while they tear it apart. That's what they did to my grandparents' farm. They stood there and they spit and they smirked. That's what they're going to do to these people. Oh my god. And you're doing this to them. You're doing this without a plan. I have invited the star environmental reporter to watch YouTube so she can write a nice summary of what she saw tonight. Look for that in the paper hopefully within the next one or two weeks.

Star Indianapolis Star and the Brown County Democrat. The days are numbered. I can't believe this. I thought you were honorable. I thought you were different. We'll accept resignation. You guys want to handle Let's do it. That's about as much what you've accomplished. I was pretty clear when I ran. I said accountability, transparency, and improvement. Um, I've been never told you go. This project's been transparent for me.

We've had meetings since May. I've had it on agendas. I shared with you the assessments that we made, four pages, the last one. I shared it at two class meetings. Address the concerns that you have. Um, the concern here is you don't trust you don't trust int. You still haven't said why you're for it. That's right. We'll trust in put it in writing tip and we'll trust in Why am I Why am I for it? I [clears throat] said it. It was a quick pro cuz you want Indian health. You want a two-lane road that's typical within Indiana, a two-lane road for tech for taxpayers and stakeholders to get back to the state. Do you

That's not unusual. Concrete road is paved. WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE WAY TO THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. WE DON'T HAVE a two-lane road. INDOT agreed to provide the funding, lower the standards, provide the funding that they gave us a design that they would improve unless they agreed as we go through this to make the adjustments that we can need to satisfy have have a decent road that everyone would be proud of. That's the goal. So that's that's my position for not typical. You're getting ready to make it exactly like this piece of property everywhere else. We are different and you're going to change that completely forever. One more.

You're affecting nature. You're affecting us. Go ahead. One more charm taken away from Brown County. Yes. We're all sitting here begging you guys to do something right for us. If they want it that bad, guess what they'll do? They're going to bring it right back to you again. Well, here's 10 or 12 billion. Here's five or six million. Do it this way instead. But you don't have to just jump on the bandwagon cuz you sit in that chair. We're s we're begging you. Tim, can I ask people lost and shed tears over this with you guys? Tim, can [clears throat] I ask you a question? Do you think that for $6.4 million, you're a hiker,

that from Salt Creek Road, they could put a parking lot and a trail and a foot bridge for 161,000 plus freight and installation across Salt Creek. You think it's $6.4 million to put a trail head in there? I'm asking you an honest question. I just want an honest answer. Nicole said they would address that as part of the study. We've got to sign agreement to start having the money to do to do that option. So, can that option be considered? Yes. Do we need to sign the agreement to get the money to to make that see if that's a viable option? Yes. Not that agreement. Not now. Zero better. Zero's been done.

Sign in a blank check. you require put the standards up higher for that contract. That contract the way it's written, you have an attorney here who can give you a great idea and you've blown that out of the water. That contract the way it's written doesn't give you any more rights than I or anyone else in this community. This the contract was discussed with our attorney. It was in a meeting that we had with the attorneys as well. So, we're comfortable. We're comfortable. Yeah. You're right. No, you're right. It does. It does behoove you to give away an honorary land. It does. It's written that way. Yeah. It helps out for our land to be donated.

And again, I'll say the only new land that's going to be needed is to adjust for the road to make it safer for people to get back to Mount T. That's it. We're not talking

dozens of acres. We're talking the land. We need to adjust the road to get back to Mount T. And then there's the construction areas that we work with based on the area to have as least minimal impact that we possibly can. And if that salt creek trail is an option, signing the agreement starts the money gives you the funds you need to investigate that option. If you want to talk to other states and say, "Gee whiz, this is too much. Here's an option if that's viable." That's a choice. Um that's a choice as well as all other kind of changes based on on what can happen based on on the terrain. And again, that's a plan that you need anytime you're going to do it. If it's a county or anybody else, you got to have a plan. Got to have an area engineering plan. And so that's the due diligence. That's making sure we do the right thing on behalf of everyone. So that's

I don't know. One more shot. One more shot. Are you up there or Stephanie? Nope. We don't have Stephanie today. What's that? James. James. Yes, I am here. In fact, how you doing, sir? How can I help you? Um, have you been listening to all this? Absolutely. Every word. Um, James, have you have you read this contract from INDOT? Not in as much depth as Stephanie, but I have read it. Yes.

Okay. Do Do you possibly think it might be a good idea that we table this until we get some more clarification to make these people happy? I mean, we're already paying we're already paying so much to you in litigation fees. I don't I don't know where we're going to get all the money to pay. So, I'm afraid that question is outside the scope of of my job. Ron, [clears throat]

I don't want to add on top of problems we already got. And this this is going to be a problem. I can tell you up front. So, do you have anything to add as far as our attorney legal advice? Legally, nothing to add. This is really a question for the for the board. Um, I I don't think tableabling it or passing it is going to make a any difference as to uh the legal ramifications of that. It's really it's just whether you guys want to vote for it or not. There's the timing is not going to be uh legally affected. [snorts] Thought I'd try, sir.

This is the guy that voted to end. Okay. All right, Kevin. I will make a motion and proceed forward with contract with Ridge Roads modifications. Good luck in the grocery store. I'll second. Sorry. Real call. Um Ron, how do you vote? Hell no. Thanks, Ron. I apologize, people. Tim, how do you vote? Yes. Kevin, how do you vote? Yes. Your phone is So, are you from office immediately?

Make a motion for you guys to resign. What's it say? Says jokers. You don't matter. Wait a minute. We ain't done, guys. Get back here. We're not done. Get back here. We're done. Short break. Five minute break. You're on your own. I think we need to shut

Can I can I interrupt for just one second if the meeting back in order? Yes. I'm very offended with one of our commissioners and how they acted in this meeting. Um, do you do what? I'm offended by how you acted in this meeting. Oh, you've been offended before. Oh, a lot with you. Yes. Yeah, I've been offended with how you do books. Oh, I bet you have. All right, let's let's move on. Thank you. Um, county office department reports. Uh, Commissioner Adminson Teresa. Oh, updates on from yesterday's council meeting.

Um, okay. um about the OOR grant, the owner occupied rehabilitation grant applications closed for the public on uh the 17th and homeowners who have been picked will start getting phone calls on February 27th and in March they will start income verifications for those homeowners. just to let everyone know the homeowners are picked by a third party that has nothing to do with the county or um you know residents. So it's we're not involved in that part. So, um, also wanted to let u the public know that we hired Corey Frost is our EMA director. Started Monday under the commissioners. And unless you have any questions, that's all I really

Okay. have nothing for me. And then the budget thing, you submitted the again the changes that we will go. Julie Julie has posted those on Gateway and we will go again uh in March to explain those appropriations. Hey, and the good news uh road and bridg bridge capital asset list. Who wants to who wants to introduce that? I think that belongs to Mr. Burton. So, what have we accomplished, Mr. Burton, with that?

We finally got some numbers on what stuff's worth uh with bridges and roads. So, uh, had some help with Jeremy Hunter, Clark Deetsz, um, put this together based on state board accounts, uh, and now she actually has some numbers. Yes. Which the auditor has basically been asking for for years. So, very happy about all that. And Ron helped a lot when he did his thing to begin with. So, that was a good That's a nice That's a good report. I mean, very thorough. Um,

yes, you're him and I work back and forth probably a month. Um, just we had some corrections and some adjustments and there's some rideway numbers in there and that's you can read that what that's in there. Um, cuz we don't obviously know about rightway but if we had it that's the numbers we do. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yes, it's finally got it done I think Monday. So, and then I need to make a correction on the last report that I did. I said that Eric had bought the beams and the decking package for the blur edge on Mount Liberty. It's not Mount Liberty, it's Mountain Right. So, in essence, he's adding to the list another bridge that we're actually doing repairs and fixing.

Yeah, it's just going to be beams and bearings and replacement. The deck will be cut and put back on afterwards, and the abupments are fine. There'll be a little bit of concrete work uh that they'll have to do once everything's removed. We'll have to they'll have to install a culvert to do a runaround for people to get around that live back there because it's dead end. Um but that's all stuff we'll do in house. The other two bridges that's on there that's going to take a little bit more work. Going to have to bid that stuff out. It's over. So that's you're this is identified for here is the Northshore and Al Creek.

Correct. So um that those need to be done. Um the piping for Northshore is not bad. That's easy. It's just aiming that up to get access um because it's on that canal. So, okay. I got And Eric, for folks who don't know, Eric is moving on to a new position um the end of the month, I believe it is. Eric, thank you. Thank you. I mean, you've done phenomenal job for us. So, are you going to be a super personal? Hey, um couple things. the old avalanche down there. It's not ours.

It was supposed to go to sheriff's department. If that thing will safely move, air up the tires, if you can get it to the sheriff's department so they can get rid of it, get it off the road out there. The other thing is is the uh I noticed we had that tractor we give almost 200 grand for sitting out of the road along with the K Cabota. I don't think the fair board would have an issue with you parking that over in the bonnet under a roof, you know, on that side that we're already on because we got a lot of money sitting there in that equipment and sitting right out there by the road and the weather's not it's not ideal. Half the time it's out on the road [snorts] working or they leave it.

Yeah. If you can Well, yeah, there's that that the weather. Um, something else. I talked to the assistant super a couple days ago and it seems to have dried out either supposed to rain tomorrow or anything, but I seen you guys sending loads of gravel out. Were you able to get out and hit some of them roads? And I mean, obviously, you're hauling it to the gravel road. We've had three trucks all week long hauling gravel out we've had two trucks hauling gravel in. Are there is the road starting to tighten up in it? it where they're putting the gravel. Well, it's just mother nature that time of the year. Yeah. The cave in freezing thaws. So,

I don't think it's as bad as it has been in the past judging my driveway by how it's acting. It's pretty bad, man. My driving. Yeah, it gets it gets pretty gnarly when you have that much snow and ice and then it melts and rain. And the rain sometimes tightens it up though. It does my drive, but it's on a hill. So, there's that. That's all I got. Thanks, sir. [clears throat] Thank you. Other than I'd like to talk about the music center a little bit. All right. You ready for that? Yep. Cool.

Uh I wanted to present it to you and public. There's no behind the scene thing. I plan on presenting this to the music board next week if they meet. Um, you know, we talked a little bit about inkeepers tax and you know, if this is legal, of course, if we was to use the inkeepers tax once the money is a certain level for them and then if we could use the inkeepers tax to make the mortgage payment, that could put 665,6376 six cents into the county general. Can we not? Wait a minute. Let me finish. Let me finish.

Um, and then if you know, use the empty tax, pay the mortgage, it would free that up to be paid to the county. Keep the 65 uh 2575 split stay the same. That way it keeps You mean 2575?

2575. Keep the split. And uh that keeps everybody happy because we have that kind of money coming in the excess revenue, you know, as a plus. But uh keep the pilot program the way it is and I'd say keep the board the way it is because they they obviously got it functioning and it's showing a profit, you know, and that way everybody wins. It should make everybody happy. There's no fights, there's no lawyers, there's no lawsuits. Now, you got an issue with the the money going to the county. What's that? So, it's not the money to the county. I don't think that's in our perview to make that decision. So,

county council, you would have to get the county council agreement. And then you got we appointed a couple CBC members. U I believe we appointed Rich Stan uh Stanley and I believe there's uh we got one more Jimmy Tilton. Um I don't know is you know I don't want I'm tired of the fighting with council. you know, you guys go and take the punishment every time. Three hours long and you know, I don't even know if they they'd even listen to it. But that would be a doable deal for everybody. And then like I said, no decision. No, I think that's a conversation that you can start on the board meeting. Sure. That you have with them because you have council member present. He can take that back to the board.

And I would kind of like to bring it up at the next admin meeting and see if you guys got any more input or what your thoughts are. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. Legal. James, anything? Nothing for me at the moment, but uh I'm taking notes and obviously if there's anything in particular you guys want me to to take note of and and get back to you on, I absolutely will. Okay. Well, Mr. Attorney, do you think I was out of line tonight? He can't answer that question. I cannot answer that question, sir. Appropriate question. All right, James. Yeah, [laughter] James, I got a few questions. I'll follow up with you tomorrow. So, yep. Yeah. Motion to journ. [clears throat] Motion

second. All right. Meeting adjourned. I said I seen you try to stop running. Three times.