Area Plan Commission (apc) - Regular Meeting

The red ones. have a pajamas. Good evening. Welcome to the Brown County Planning Commission meeting on September 23rd, 2025 at 6:04 p.m. Roll call.

Carol here. Jane Gore here. Randy Jones here. Hisy Okay. Um, next is an approval of minutes. Do I have a motion to approve the minutes from August 26 25? Second. I second. Any discussion? Tim Allen. Yes. Bangor. Yes.

Brandy Jones. Abstain due to absence. Andy Boils. Yes. Kyle Deckard. Yes. Carol.

Next we have old business. None. New business. None. U. Does have anybody have any uh questions or concerns about the extraction reports and the normal finance that we get? Okay. And with that, we're going to close the record meeting on to the work session at 6:05. Okay. What do you guys want to do first? So, uh we can discuss the application documents and checklists or we can do camber RV policies, ordinances have that discussion first. I think the application documents are going to be really quick. Okay. Yeah, I I agree with that application fairly quick just to clean up detail, right?

Yes. And then you also have the highlighted um just to kind of clean things up is really the reason that um change some wording that kind of makes sense. Uh last time that these were changed most of them were in 2011. So, we're just kind of trying to update them. Um, there were a lot of these like the PUB mostly the APC documents had several of the same sentences in the top. You just read one and skip the next three. When it says property card on all these, does that mean we don't need it?

Is that what the highlighted? That's what's highlighted on. So, we just want to change the wording on there because it says provided by. Currently, it says provided by, but they actually have to go request that from them, right? So, we just want to try to make things as clear as possible. I don't know if you want to change it from request to obtain. That way, they know I mean for the right. So, I I don't want to think request mean you get a free Well, and provided I don't like that wording either. I don't know. They don't obtain it from. Okay. So, just the warranty to chain or both. I'm just going to change it both.

So, what you have here, as we discussed earlier today, what you have here in the yellow is what you have already. Yes. Okay. So, this one here, it has the new says commercial campground. that heading wasn't in there at all. Uh I think you're too far in the documents. I had these mixed up. So any anything that's highlighted. Okay. I just use that. Yes. Um you you change that verbiage or you change some letter that works around different heading. Okay. All right. Okay.

Andor locations of where it was. We did change some of the locations too. We had like presubmission meeting and then the next item was docket day. Like that's not how okay things go. We tried to make it as easy to read and follow along as possible. Like start at step one and then finish at the last step make the most sense. So um some of the ones especially the filing fee we didn't put on there. um we can change those people to ask because that's the last thing to do before sending out the the documents and then uh to make the checks payable. That's the number one question we get asked.

When do we pay that and who we pay to probably the checklist or where it says I know on the green it just says application probably I know in the top it says completed application but I would put down there completed application. So that way people know it's and then one other thing I would like to see on the brief is a transfer description for the land being transferred between the tracks and just put a check mark item for the survey to have a transfer description. Okay. So where the survey

Well yeah because in order the way they transfer the land if there's no transfer description you're transferring all of the neighbors property everything of that survey even though they own any of it. So it's kind Oh, I thought they only own part of it. So it's it's a weird way to do it. So transfer descriptions would be necessary to do it correctly. And then also I would like it to have it on there show that the parent they got to show the parent tracks and adjoiners on the ser. So parent traction original parent traction and another line for adjoin parcels then line for where they tie in. Yeah, I was going to say that. We're singing a lot.

So once again, Tim, um any suggestions what you just went over, requirements, volume, state? Um the transfer descriptions are a tool required almost for a title company in order to I mean to track the title of the track parcel grant when you just transfer like you know I'm going to give you this portion here and so now I'm going to be deeding over everything over because I don't have a description for this and that's how a lot of our surveys are done. We don't have a description for the piece being transferred. It's it's an odd way to do things. It's not something that is not a state requirement. is four. It's just not in practice. It's just good practice practice. Okay.

So, is that just on reclass or do you want that on major subs, minor subs? Well, the majors and minors definitely have the parent tracks and the joiners that way because the auditors is like they call all the time for Tom to figure out where tracks at because there's not enough information and so if it had the information on there then they could easily find it. It'd be nice to send match too and This thing's been done. I'm getting if I got if I got, you know, aced lot and then I will have to have a new description of that. But you would and in most counties it go through administrative subision process is what they call it and it's more or less just through the plane department office only. And then what they do is they review it, but that way it's not a new partial ground be a new five draft. So because if you're adding it to yours, it's just a transfer link between a joint.

So So my question is how is that document how is it in the future that that is defined? That piece is no longer there, but it's with me now. And is that two pieces or one piece? It would it takes a deed to transfer the ownership. It would have to be a deed to transfer the ownership. The survey only creates parcels and line works. The deed transfers the ownership and makes it into [Music]

I would rather we just other than Tim's best management surveying technical recommendations. Um, I would rather just hold this to the staff that have to deal with it. We know you guys or things that have to handle see and review it. So, uh, I trust your judgment on this. Are you a motion? Do we need a motion to or is this something just administratively internally? schedule to change the wording. I think it'd be helpful to have

it be helpful to have a plan on that.

So, so look look at all the changes we make in the work session after that in a regular meeting. Yes, that would be one way to do it. Or you could just authorize Kayla to make highlighted corrections tonight. So, Kayla, I recommend that you also on the reason ask them on the reason application checklist, have them provide you the res and have them the there's the five things you have to a through Eve that you meet those requirements. Have the applicant answer those questions and how they meet those requirements as well. That way you're not preparing it. There's no reason for you to do the work.

What was that first thing that you said? I didn't get it right. Reszone exhibit. Okay. That'll have the property description. It'll have the adjoining zoning of each parcel around it. It just shows there.

And then I had a question. We mentioned before about complete packets, complete documents. Do we need to put some verbiage on the checklist on each checklist that says incomplete applications will be not put on the agenda.

I think that's already well on the the one that we see a lot in. Yeah. Now, I don't know if that's on every one of the applications. Is that on every every one of them feel like those the BZA as well or just the uh BZA? I see. Major sub. I see. Yes. We can make it bigger and older if you want to be skiing, right? Well, I think that'll help. I've been talking about this for months. It doesn't seem

on the top of this particular page says applications that do not include all required items are incomplete and will not be documented. Yeah, it's not on the reflat. It's not on TV. But it should be I think it should be it's not just I'm guessing you want you want me to give them to you later. Yeah. If it's especially over just take a couple minutes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean that's my opinion. I don't know what the rest of say. Okay. So on the minor as also I think uh you want to have an existing conditions if you're trading land between parcels or where you're dividing up you need to show occupation or not occupation at least improvements within 25 ft of property line where your setback are

minor. improvement existing conditions show the ponds, buildings, roads, drives and of course I mean you got so warnings being done for health department we want to make sure they're on the property. So have those shown on there any easements put that on there as a checklist. uh commissioner's approval such a certification for rightway being dedicated on minors. I have a question now that whatever utility

I think it'll be it'll be shown on black because they they water. Yeah. If if you can mark it on the ground, if if they are able to map it further deep, I think it ought to be shown. I had to tell where they weren't going to go where they went. And so they probably

is that it? Well, there's basically that's kind of some of the things we want most of

Okay. on like the major sub and checklist you want to add in existing conditions. You want to know the easements and so for all division recl the same kind of whatever and that statement that I read about the you know it's not it's not being and then I guess one thing I saw on the board zoning appeals variance checklist the site plan has to 8 half by 11. That's a pretty small.

Yeah, I think it can be. But it says cycl on 8 and 12 or 8 and 12 by 14. So we put a minimum legible and draw on the scale just to scale. Yeah. Well, it's going to take longer than it has to be. Yeah. Yes.

I don't know that the lay person can can make a site plan to scale it. Okay. Well, that Okay, that's what you're Okay. Yeah, that's just not practical. I just don't think it is practical for a lot legible. didn't know we had a lot of people do it just pen and paper. Okay. And we try to help them out with measurements if it's far away. I was thinking of bigger projects. I'm like usually typically the owner and they write.

Yeah. back of a Kleenex ball with a pray exactly line but probably get some pretty balance. Yeah, I know. And it's just a side if lay person looks at it and can't understand it and it's not acceptable to the measurements. So that has to be clear enough that anybody want to look at it. They may not know what it's for. look at it and understand. Yeah.

Well, I think we have the option to reject this commission does any plan that we look at that we can't we can't make sense of we can reject that and send it back to but we shouldn't we shouldn't I think by putting it on the front end hopefully we won't have to look at it and kick it out because of that. Exactly. We do have a really nice sample site plan that we provide to um especially for building permits. I think they're in the tourist home applications to or the guidelines or something like that, but we can start providing those with all the applications that require sighting. Yeah, there you go.

Have have consistency across the board today. Then you don't have to think about what's different than this one or that what other than what's on your data. It should be quick. It was. It's done. You guys want to vote allowing Danielle and I to make all these changes? I think a motion that we allow Danielle to make changes. So,

David, do we actually vote during this? This is a regular session. Just double check. Okay. Anybody else with comments? Jane Gore. Yes. Randy Jones, yes. Andy Boils, yes. Kyle Deckard, yes. Earl Bowen, yes. Yes. Thank you. Okay. What's the next one? I was writing. I'm sorry.

Okay. So, camper RV policies, ordinances, however we want to. Well, I'm happy to tell you my house didn't burn down. Good. I was worried about that for the last. Yes. So um in your packet you guys should have the written policy policy correct that the office has

yes so I'll start item two says campers cannot be used for permanent walling and cannot have permanent decks or ignitions attached is that for a campground.

This is just for and I guess I should have put camper RVs on private property because campgrounds have their own conditions and things that they've got to to meet. to build a full tiki bar and deck between two campers like it's impressive 46 there's two campers in the back pretty cool set but it's okay So, uh, I'd like a little clarification on something here. We we now have a we have a written policy which we have in front of us.

Okay. Dave written policy. Are they enforce? Um, okay. If they're consistent with the ordinance. I mean, if if the ordinance says you're supposed to do this and this policy just says this is how it's going to be done. Um, well, listen in our ordinance. This is some of the ordinance. There is no language. There's nothing in there about it. That the policy is what drives the decision making.

Yeah, it needs to be in or form. So, if I'm reading between the lines, you're saying that it's really I mean, it has to be it should be in an ordinance what you're wanting to achieve. Yeah. It just depends on what the policy is is is designed to result in if it's going to regulate how somebody's property is being used or developed, then it needs to be in the ordinance. If it's a matter of administration in the office, I think that's that doesn't need to be at the ordinance. It could be how it's managed in the office. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. How, you know, like I don't think you have to have ordinances to say, you know, here's ouration. Yeah. But this what I don't want to get into is that we end up with a with an ordinance that and we end up sending the staff to a gunfight with a knife as well as the complaining commission. It's do we enforce something in court? An order. It's always safer that an ordinance if if it's likely to be challenged. Okay.

I mean and by that you've got your your for example your tour guidelines

that's not an ordinance form but it's tied to an ordinance criteria so you're supposed to say this is not going to harm surrounding the special exception will not harm surrounding areas and the guidelines just inform the public of the different kinds of considerations the BCA is going to take to reach its determination on the statuto or the ordinance criteria. So that that's something that we've been able to get violate on occasion. I've always thought it'd be better those guidelines for following the ordinance, but uh that's the way it is. So can we say that we from we look a lot better if we go to court and we have a written policy that we have consistently followed on making a determination or decision as opposed to no policy and as opposed to nothing.

Yeah. I mean you want the public to be informed and to know where the board's coming from. Uh so if if your guidelines which are a board resolution for example on your tour that's been published that was done under public um that to me I think a court would give more weight to than something saying if they go into the office someday and and somebody says hey why are you doing it this way and they say well that's just the way we've always done it. But a policy has not been published to public. It doesn't have to go through AAA. I mean, it doesn't have to be correct. This is this is just an internal guidance policy document for both commission and the staff claw.

Yeah. I mean, and it and again, if if it could be put as a rule, the plan commission, then that's that's a policy that has more force at not as much as an ordinance, but it's it's the statute gives the the planning commission of appeals the authority to make rules. Those rules aren't adopted as an ordinance, but they're adopted publicly and they're published in a book so people know what what's going on. You talk about our rules and procedures.

Yeah. Yes. And so, yeah, the main thing is the public needs to know where you're coming from. It needs to be consistent and published so they can have access to it and know what what they're what they're required to do. Okay, this is one last question too and I'm going to shut up on this at least as part of it. Would you feel comfort going into court based on enforcement of a policy? nothing in the ordinance that would prohibit something XYZ, but would you be comfortable going in on just the policy?

Well, no. I mean, the policy could be used to support ordinance violation, but I wouldn't go in on a policy violation. Um, so really without the without ordinance to back us up as a violation, you're pretty shaky ground. I I prefer to ask stuff that affect substantive rights of citizens in ordinance form. Okay.

We need the basic policy to find out. So then we back that up with other orders for compliance. Well, you see where I'm going on this? You're going to have to open up the ordinance, change the ordinance that had the language you would really want, which is a whole different issue and a whole different animal than developing an internal policy. Not saying there's not issues, but last meeting I asked what problem are we trying to fix? What are we trying to fix? We have had um complaints before that there are property owners who are living in their campers. Um typically the the help that we get with with that once we send a letter saying hey you can't live in your camper. Um most of our help is from the health department. Yeah. How often do you receive those?

Occasionally. One year. Maybe maybe two. We just seem to be spend an awful lot of time. I'm fully aware based on what they pretended against that. I just want to know more. What should they? And we do have folks that call in and ask, you know, hey, I'm about to start building a house. Can I live in my camper?

Why I ask? Because I I read this and and maybe maybe for their their particular situation, it's different because they're right on up. But if if we enact this and it's enforceable somehow. Suppose I've got 300 acres. I can't leave a camper in the middle of my street acres. If I live somewhere else and I come and visit every once in a while, move it from my 300 acres to the middle in the middle of nowhere. No one see it. I don't like that. I I think something at least scalable to the size of the property or maybe like Tim said the setbacks there seems to be setbacks seems to be the need for something scalable here not just a boom you can only be there a week boom you know you have to move them to leave

I hear what you're saying but I think we need to be very careful that and if you're there for a long long period of time either maybe annually you have to have a permit annually to keep it there and with that either you have to have septic or bring in proof you know, waste man. I don't have 300 acres, by the way. You know, just just playing devil's advocate. It just it seems a week. I was looking through the other counties. It seemed to be some two weeks, some were like three days, some were although the Patriot Act stopped building. You can't have just a building on your 300 acres if it's not live. You can't have an address on a building if it's not a livable. Is that what you're saying? Right. like homeland security, right?

Yeah. I can't have a full with an address, right? Yeah. Yeah. I can build it. Okay. It's just a few things I and that's that's another question too is you know if we do you know five months in the future if we say you know you got to come in and get an improvement location permit to to have your camper hook up to your septic system and and allow you to live in there. The problem having this is just there there's there's probably more good people following the spirit of the lack of ordinance whatever than there is those

and I and I don't want to completely punish all those I don't know how to make everybody happy it's possible task but are we saying we're hosing those with this that that they got to drag it out every time they leave I think that's a good question well every time they leave I'm not sure what you It says right here by the time you're done camping stuff. If there's no other structures on your own. Yeah. I have 300 acres a lot. I'm a nice guy. I stick it in the middle of the woods. No one can see it from miles away. Well, I got to hold that thing out of there. Nobody's going to know that. What do you mean? Package you can't policy. Okay.

It's the turn. Second to last. Okay. I here I drive a lot of places in this county drive and and and there was one situation I could call in that the only on the property the camper and a couple of those truck you know boxes whatever you call that's on the back of the semi boxes.

Yeah. So thinking I'm just going to think about it and uh you know so I had you know a little bit of concern about that um why I called the other the other thing that one has to consider is the honesty of people living that way actually taking care of their wife material. I would make it give you a very specific example. When my kid was in high school, my kid would go to the stream on the other side of the football field and they could do science stuff. They get paper tubes, fluid out and everything else and do science things. The only way those kids can do that now, they have to literally go out in a hazmat suit. They have to have gloves on, a hazmat suit and everything. They cannot go to that stream and take any water or anything out of it because it's polluted. And that's because why? because upstream either campers or uh um trailers trailer homes do not have septic or not hooked up to septic and that's and of course also fine material you know that has come downstream and

I mean are we qualified to say it's gluten stream really could it be failing septics that but still it's the whole idea that you know as property owner I think you know I I be checking on everybody's property, but I do know of some places they didn't even okay and and they just it was

so you know there's there's that whole dynamic of looking at the larger health thing. Um, and I mean I don't like we don't need to have a police going out there and checking on everything, but we need to try to get people to live by the basics like here like you said like I said by waste management and stuff. And I just want to put that out there because the knowledge of different places that I have well water quality issues it's a huge problem state and particular here in Brown County B for a number of reasons but um I think if you ask the average person on the street out here if my neighbor bringing a camper pull that camper on their property there's nothing else there say maybe a garage or a barn and they can take a resident live there. Is that regulated? I think there would be shock if we said not through our ordinance. I would I would expect that someone living in this county that that there is regulations on a a camper or a mobile home or whatever you want to call it pulled in set up and this is where we're going to live. Well, typically right, wrong, or indifferent, we refer to the um

Indiana residential code. Live in something that's not a livable dwelling. And who enforces that? The building. Okay. Is this what we have here or is this No, that's from another county. This is from Jefferson County. Okay. Yeah. So, uh, you're saying you can't give a residential building permit or a residential improvement location permit for a camper. They cannot cannot.

Okay. And I I'm fine with that. I agree with what Randy just said, but putting a week versus to making me move it off my 300 acre just that's in the details where I had an issue. So the question is if there's already legislation I don't want to use legislation there's already enforcement instrument in place why are we referring them to that to that instead of the health I know the health department I know why you said it to the health department has to do with the waste water right fully understand

but it sounds like to me that there's another level of state regulation or regulatory level that would preclude them or prevent them from happening without the that's that's why I think the time limit came into effect how long someone can and this is just this is just my opinion okay I think that the time limit is there because that's like an average vacation someone's not taking a residence there does that provide for that does that state regulation provide for that for camping or for resial for the timeline. I think the timeline no I think that's why the timeline was originally thought of locally

what immediately comes to my mind is short-term rentals versus longterm 30 or less whatever is why isn't it closer to that just so the policy right yeah so the policy is just what it's one of those things that's handed down and it's the this the way we've done it because we've always done it this way. So, all I did was put pen to paper and write the policy out. Please don't mistake any of my push. No, no, no. I don't know the intent. You don't have a policy unless it's written.

So, and now it's written. So, I actually have something tangible that you can put your fingers off. Prior to that, it was just out here. Okay. When was this written? Uh, last it was for last month's meeting. you know up top how many counties out of the 92 that's just examples I don't know what's your question

out of the 92 counties in the state how many do not have a similar process don't Yeah, the ones that were easily found or provided to us are the ones that are circled here. It sounds like to me uh neighborhood [Music] searching for a solution that doesn't be I mean I think right here what we have now in writing it clearly says that campers cannot be used for permanent dwelling and cannot have permanent debts or additions attached. Now if you go up to the first your first sentence there property owners can camp on their own property this can be done for short periods of time only example and this is very subjective average vacation time one week. Okay, fair enough. But it states here number two that you cannot put campers on and use it for permanent dwelling.

Period. That's just the policy though. I know I'm reading the policy. I'm curious. What's the length of deer season? The entire thing? Yeah. Oh, that's months. Okay. So, if I wanted to hunt all deer season, I had to bring my camper out, take it back, take it out, take it back, take it back. I mean, back if I lived up in Carl or whatever. I'm just saying key in permanent dwelling. Yeah. I'm talking about what he said like what Kyle's saying you have to haul it off. So I I like Jefferson County. I think Jefferson County says they don't they don't really they avoid some of the heartburn I have with this and they just say this thing must be fully licensed highway ready. I agree.

It can't be a giant hunk of crap that we see. Yes. So I would rather have that than make them move it off their property every single time they go back and or you monitor I the same way the neighbors call in

the neighbors call in subjective it is but subjective I know when you're done but um And you kind of what you just said was but this is policy and that gets back to my original question today. So is it even one pursuing this as a policy in terms of are you comfortable with enforcing this as as it is as a policy or should we look at going in and opening up and putting this in the ordinance. I I think if we want the I think the if we want the policy to be enforceable then it has to be in the ordinance. I agree. And we're going to get as serious about it.

That's I mean that's why these folks are here now. We were not able to enforce in their case what we thought we were going to be able to enforce because every other time we've been able to with with help.

So in their case I don't open this up to back and forth discussion but in their case they're probably sitting there think shut up because I would love for those people to move their RV off their property property. But I think in their case it's because it's really close to the line. So I would rather see if you if you you have a choice it either is x amount of feet away from a boundary or every time that's more fair to me. That's kind of an out of sight out of mind type thing though. It's almost like it starts to feel like a little bit of too much work. wanted to leave it there. Maybe come in, get an application, but I think zip setbacks, minimum acreage, some you should have a posted stamp right there and look at personally in

their instance, the neighbor, he's grandfathered in. No matter what we do, the guy with their instance, the guy's grandfathered in. No matter what we decide. What do you mean grandfathered in? His camper's there. It's grandfather. How's the grandfather is there? Before we had the ordinance. Um, okay. That's what that's what it's going to get. I mean, I'm Well, that's okay. That's debatable. You can't do retroactive.

I guess all my opinion already boils down to third of an acre. That's a bad example in this county. Three acres versus 300 acres. Is it all a rubber stamp treated the same? Most of the complaints were because it's visible and it's yet to light up somewhat backyard. Well, how does that change the land use still? It's still the same land use. Whether you can see it or whether you can't, it's still the same land use. I'm leaving it there. It's is I think it's bridge too far every single time. You mean we move

my property? It's my chamber. I should leave it there. I I I have to abide by health department regulations. Why should you tell me that I have to move my property from my parents? There's there's the key right there. That's the key. We don't have that. And should we should we argue with that's exactly I don't think we should to the extent that I disagree with you should I I don't I don't think it's I think it's poor planning if we allow someone take a tamper move it in on their own property and live it I'm not saying live I think that's the difference okay you're saying temporarily absolutely

a week uh two I think two is and then they should have to be able to move it. They have to move it to sleep there if it's so far away from the property.

What am I hurt? What am I hurting? It's my property. It's my camper. I'm not hurting anything. I'm not living in it. It is an epic pain in the ass to have pack that stuff up and drag it back and forth like tent deer season. Two months, three months, whatever it is. Yeah. Squirrel season, deer season, turkey season. deer season between all the different categories right September 15th 2005 to January 31 2026 depending on the yeah that's including you yeah that state isn't that you reference the what

did you reference Indiana residential building code okay is that Indiana residential building code. Does it allow for what Kyle's talking about or do they have to be removed? They don't speak to that. There's no language to that. No, they just say, you know, cannot be used as a permanent rental.

Even the park model RVs, have you guys seen like the newer um we stayed in when we went on vacation in a campground? But it's it's like a mobile home, but it's a little smaller. Typically, they have like a little loft area, but even those don't meet Indiana residential building code. So, they don't meet they don't meet federal, they don't meet Indiana. So, you cannot we can't tell you, Lonnie can't tell you you can safely live there. So, he can't give you a building permit for that because you can't safely live there. You can't prove that you're

and the campers that are basically mini barns on a trailer are becoming more popular. People aren't building a home. They're I know one person that may or may not have tried to operate a mini shed from Lowe's as an Airbnb. Literally help. Yeah. I I explained to them why that was a horrible idea and they were like, "No, no, we're just going to spray film it, put a mini split in it, and we'll run it out. No foundations on skids and pick it up for

I drive around the county, I see a lot of campers and mobile homes, not campers or whatever sitting around here like I don't know people living in it or not. They may be, they may not be. But as far as we're concerned, what the system we have right now is if we get a complaint on that, we go out, we look and see and check with the health department to see if they have a legal system. If they do, we walk away from it. Or if they hooked into the existing system that's there servicing an existing home and if the health department's happy with it, we close the book. That pretty much because we have to because we don't have

anything or the original question that we're talking about right now. Should we say want to hear survey monkey surveys? Let's get some input. Is it does anybody care what I What is that crazy? No, I'm not sure I phrase it that way. [Laughter] But so we're not okay. I mean, we can at least know what people

and I I absolutely see a I see a need for it. I also see if you pulled up to my dad's house and told him that he couldn't have his camper in the woods, he'd tell you where you can put it. Well, that's another issue though, Andy. What I'm What I'm saying is The thing is, if you have an

It don't fit in any places. The question is, should we have an ordinance that addresses those you have? Then you could argue about the language the temporary set how far should it sit where that type of thing that's the minutia that that we can argue about but the question I think the bigger question is should we have should we have something in our ordinance because this is a land use that's what planning commissions are about not public health land use so we shouldn't really have to depend on the health department to come in and make that determination for us

either we're going to regulate it or we're not going to regulate it. And then we get into the language of how we make how we regulate it. And that's that example just what you gave with your dad and and what what Kyle's talking about over here. Um I don't think the policyy's worth fighting for. It's not. So we need to get serious about it and we look at at opening up the code and putting in development code and then we can work on the language. Well, I my only thing with that, Randy, is we we've always operated at that was SOP is you can't have camp for more than 130 days. You can't like that has been a position held by the office. This at least gives the office a writing, not even not even teeth, just something saying, I'm not making it up. This is our official policy. I I don't see but it's Well, the difference is it's written down,

right? Okay. But we just heard our legal counsel over advice. I wouldn't be comfortable go into courtroom with just this written down. He thinks it ought to be in the ordinance and I agree with Right. But I'm saying for right now having something Oh, well, yeah. I'm not going to You're right. It's better than nothing, right? Like I'm not planning to go to court with this. I'm saying like at least to support the office. Is it better than nothing when they say it exposes to Right. Yeah. I don't know. I mean

it might not be better than nothing. I really like what Morgan County has unified development ordinance like if if it is the position to allow it then I like this position um and I did talk to Lonnie about this you got the conference right now building conference but for you know temporary occupancy when there's a primary residence being built Yeah, I like theirs too.

We decide we want to temporary occupancy is in addition to the doctor. No, that's during construction. Yeah. So, can you I haven't read all the ship in Morgan County. Can you still use it in Morgan County the week or two at a time? Now, they they're saying that they get a temporary use permit. But that's if you're building also. That's what I'm asking. If you're not building, you sit on the roof.

Well, I think you're those are geared towards several different facets of use because the guy that's sleeping in the camper so he can build his house, we need to stay in touch with the guy that's got a camper down here for deer camp two weeks out of the year. You know, that's different. That's a different I mean one reason I think this is so applicable to Brown County is Brown County lot of parks here lot of cameras lot of back roads a lot of places to hide stuff it's done all the time county I'm from no same same conditions just don't apply nobody wants to be No, that's my left. Um, but I think that's I think it's very applicable for where we are here. I think the question is do we as a planning commission we need to sign we think that we should be this should be put into the ordinance and then and I hate to say this then maybe we can put together some work sessions on how we want that language to come together and what it needs to say

and the limitations and correct such I think there there does need to be something I'm not just there does not we don't want to go with nothing, you know, what limitations we want to go with, whating and such. I think definitely need to be Yeah. And I have comments. We're talking about a camp, not a property with multiple. We don't want that. No, that's a campground. And things you don't want. You don't want that renting the property. whoever if it's used it doesn't need to be used by rent it to somebody it doesn't I mean it's you own the property you can use it not not

and that's what um another good thing about this Morgan County one that I was just reading reading occupancy of the RV is restricted to the owner of the property who is constructing but restricted to the property owners yes so section three is what I was section three is if you're not building and it's temporary what what out there.

Okay. Little eyes. I I number two home number three. Three eyes. If you're not and things you don't want, as much as I don't like the maintenance part of the, you know, we all went through is that I think we want to make sure things are kept tight. I'm sorry. We want to make sure things are kept tight like like tidy keep the licensed and plated and drug worthy. I mean,

right. And I I Yes. And I think the other thing too is that we we as a planning commission we need to be aware of conscious the fact that we don't want to put something together. It's almost impossible for staff to implement correct. So Morgan counties has 180 days, but if you read it, you pull it out, you wait a night, you pull it back, which whatever theirs is 180 camper other counties for six campers. Yeah, I think I don't want other examples that were provided some of those Shelby or was up to six up to six months. Yeah, that's

I think it's a little to weekend that's okay, but for any period of time. No. Yeah, I think it's a little too early for us to really get weeds on that. That's something we get into. But what what do we need to do as a commission if we decide that we're we're going to make this type this regulation part of the ordinance? So, we're gonna include this, add this to the to the code. We would have to propose a work session and put a public hearing. I would like to hear from the public. Oh,

so do we just want to invite Okay, so here's my question. Do we want to have a hearing on a document that doesn't exist yet? like so the additions to the ordinance or do we want to have a work session where we invite the public come tell us your opinions then we'll make our decision after what your opinions are like okay because I mean it wouldn't be difficult to draft an ordinance but what is it gonna say we we're not where's the starting point yeah we don't really have the hourly any survey I don't know other than right You're going to have you're going to have to get public input. That's one thing. And then you're going to have to have public hearings on there. Yeah.

That's another thing. I mean, I put on the things you do that before trying to draft the ordinance. Yes. To bring in the information. Yeah. To see what what people want. We just need like

Well, again, I think it goes back to you can't legislate morality. So there are people that want to follow the rules and there are people that don't care. I I think you have to write the rules to to make common sense. Like if it just needs to be like, hey, you know, this isn't the cheaper to unfortunately say isn't anymore. So, how many if I hadn't understood you to say that I think you addressed Kyle's questions earlier, we don't get too many on this or do we get a lot of places?

We do not. We We do get a lot of calls asking, "Hey, I just bought five acres. I'm planning on building next year. Can I come live in my camper?" And we have to say, "No, you can't come live in your camper." And technically now you can't say that. All you say is our policy is but we don't there is no policy. Well, our written policy

there is no written policy. That's why that this is brought here to that's what got us here tonight is because the office couldn't say here's a copy of our policy because we didn't have one. It was more of a why'd you cut the end off the hand was because that's how mom did it. Mom did it that way because that's how grandma did it. So the idea of writing this document was to give them something to reference. He said hand, not a hand. He said hand. Okay. Do you know why grandma cut hand off the ham? I'm not sure I want to know. Her pan was too small.

Oh. So should we this evening uh should we madam chairman should we look at the written policy that has been submitted here that we've looked at and reviewed and either approve this or not approve this does she does she need planning commission approval for written policy in terms of a note and a second and promotion and all that

but I think if you're going to use it But I do think it would need to be this particular one would need to be put into an ordinance because really does regulate and I and I would feel more comfortable with better detail better better comments and and more clarification. Yeah, our conversation.

We definitely don't want ambigu ambiguity in the document what I say short period of time like things like that. It could be done better, but as far as the office being able to tell someone on the phone or standing in front of them, this is our policy and some of the stuff in the academy what so can I make a long but would you be I have some changes some things I would like to add to this. I assume other folks would too. And I I think that everybody should submit whatever

and that she can pull it up, you know, and pull it together and everything and then we'll have a better go yes, no, change this, do that. Like on the waist portion, I want to amplify a little bit more on that. We'll separate that out in terms of solid waste as well as just some things like that. Would that be all right? Yeah. Okay. So, do we want to have those comments here before the next month's meeting?

No, I think she's going to need something here. We need Is there anything glaring in the Morgan County that everyone has a problem? Should we not just start with that one and modify that one to suit our need? [Music] I wouldn't for a starting point. What do you not like? I don't like it. Well, there's a lot of it. I mean, you're already start with that. Get rid of the stuff that's not applicable and add what you want the additional add from that. This is not ready compared to

mix and match. So, you have a flight. So by the next month, we need you ladies to figure out what each one of us want and have a better policy for us to Well, on on the notes from last month, I had, you know, draft RV ordinance and I'm like, for what? For for who? Like what's it going to say? Well, we got a lot more now than we had watching the homework that you did and showing us what the other counties are doing. That's a lot that's a lot of good information. Okay. And the fact that you now have what we do, what our policy was and written down in writing, we can see that as well. That helps.

I think that's helpful. Yes. Even though we're not officially adopting this as our policy. No. Right. Right. Not yet. And honestly, this is stuff that Lonnie was told from the building commissioner before him. Chris was told from the planning commissioner or Yeah. Right. They thought I was trying to be funny. I was serious. I know. No, that that is true. Yeah. And there's same thing with another issue. We've got demolition permits. We've never required them. Well, it says right here that that we have to

Yeah. And you know we need to take the opportunity come up with the better tools so you guys have opportunity to follow it and public has an opportunity to understand what game is. Quick question on all the other counties. Is that what you said? I didn't read all the do any of them address.

It just seems a house would by saying I didn't recall soon.

County also has limited to one year for another six months. Well, I think that's what we're trying to say. That's the devil details. So we do not have to

we do not have any docket items for October. Okay. So work session work session. Oh in between now and then I don't know that we will in in a month I don't know that we will get enough. Are we inviting the public to that work session? We want to have something Democrat, you know. Hey, we want to hear from you. Please attend. Come give us your thoughts. A survey.

We're not legally required to follow anything but having the data. Something it is a tool we can use. Brown County, right? Let me see if I can get on there. Okay. So, a survey and invite people to come in for next month. Um, what's the docket look like next? There's nothing. Let's hit this mail while it's in front of us. Just do it. We're good. I think so. public.

When you want our comments before then like in two weeks minimum you want you want some time to put your stuff together, right? So yeah, I mean we have a meeting in four weeks that we're going to talk about it. So So when do you want our stuff? Yesterday. No. Um realistically at least the week before the meeting. Okay. Because otherwise I wouldn't be able to get it to you guys in your board packets. I want to make sure you had time to get here. Yeah, preferably. I mean, there's nothing else going on. Yeah, two weeks beforehand, preferably. Let's just say two weeks. Okay. Period. Put a date on it. And if you don't, there goes your Christmas bonus.

Plus, no more cookies or cheesecake. [Music] And when you talk about demolition permits next, I've never heard of one except for in the flood plan or demolition permit. Oh, I've never heard of that. Mayor, I've demoed several houses putting my bill on the recording. I don't know. Is there anything that we require that you're aware of? I mean, have you ever heard that?

No. town has one for um historical what's the benefit what's the purpose well historical area that

for sure but in a flood plane they also need to know if it's a big place then that affects yeah affects modeling but for just tearing down a structure you have to have a building permit to put one back and I know I've run into situations where homeowner bought a property propert the structure, did not have the septic inspected before they demoed the structure, could not put a new septic in on that property. So now they've purchased for full price a property that they can no longer use. Period. The end because they demoed the original and the septic that was there wasn't.

We try to tell people make sure that you can fit a new septic system on your lot before you demo. And you know, don't burn the don't burn the members. You know, would be nice to know where all the demolition the crew goes to instead of Uncle Joe to be, right? That happens a lot. I mean, and we just, and this may be bad, but we just demoed a trailer. We didn't do any illegal burning. We didn't do anything like that. We put everything in a dumpster and took it to and took it to the dumpster place. They they got it. Yeah, it's a roll off.

Well, unfortunately about and many times that's not the case. It is sub.

All right. Anything else? Because we have two motions to adjourn. I move that we adjourn. I'll second. You already had that one, too. All those in favor say I. I. Motion carried. So, who actually did second? First, second. I heard him.