Budget Committee - Regular Meeting

order of the Bristol Budget Committee at 6:00 on Tuesday, November 18th. No surprise. We have a quorum. So, we're all set to go. We'll start with the pledge. Vice tonight to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

So, I think we all have the agenda. Just for the public, this is the first of our five meetings where we're going to go through sections of the budget. We're going to do the three sections for the what I call the non-municipal agencies. I don't know if that's correct or not. So, um I don't think there's anything we need to do before we get into new business. So, our first uh section to consider tonight is 4197, which is advertising and regional associations. I'll go ahead and make a motion to u advance or to consider section 4197 which is advertising regional associations in the select board recommended amount of $7,98. Seconded.

Seconded by Joe. Um discussion. Does anyone have any comments or I I think the only thing that I can think to say is that um in past years some of these numbers have have at this point have only been estimates and can can still So is that correct Christina? We're still waiting for NHMA and Lakes Region to give us a firm number or these are these um what's our status? It looks Huh. Sorry. Um no any we did get a firm number. Um it just came in and it's more money. It's um

So we have a firm number but it's not the one in the documented files. Correct. When I estimated I estimated the 3% it's gone up a little bit more. It's $3,965. But let me just check because I may have lakes region planning. Yeah, lakes region planning came in higher, too. Okay. So, if we approve the budget the way it is now, the town will not have enough money to pay these two membership fees. Is that a correct statement? Correct. You want to feed me those numbers again and we can make a motion to amend?

That's up to you. I then feed you those numbers again. Um I just Why don't you We'll do it one at a time. So I was just trying to open links regard planning again. Okay. So lakes region planning at line 831. We put in a 7% but it's $4,144. See how I don't have a piece of paper and a pen in front of me. You want you want to go ahead and make a motion for that. So Oh, we doing them individually as a whole.

I think we do them individually. We do we do a motion for a line at a time. I don't think we ever I don't remember ever doing a motion for multiple lines at one time. planning. So, I'll make a motion that the Thank you. Um, line 4197831 be increased from the amount of um $4,31 to $4,144, which is the amount the actual amount requested by the planning commission.

Second. Okay. So, we have a motion from Buzz, seconded by Scott to increase the Lake Region Planning Commission, which is line 831 to a new number. What's the new number again, Buzz?

4144. Okay. Any comments, questions? I don't think we need we haven't had any debate, so I don't think I need a motion to close debate. We'll just go ahead and do a vote. Um, all in favor of the motion to uh increase the number from $4,31 to $4,144. Signify by raising your hand, saying I get seven. So ns and abstensions are zero. That passes seven zero. Um, what's the new number for NHMA?

Why you do that? Um, for NH 3965. Yep. Thank you. I would make a motion to increase line 4197-832 to 4,000 no sorry to 33 $3,965. Seconded.

Okay. Motion by less, seconded by Joe to increase the New Hampshire New Hampshire Municipal Association Line 832 from the current $3,877 to a new amount of $3,965. Any comments, questions? Not seeing any. We'll go ahead and have a vote. All in favor? I. Unless you weren't, right? Oh, so I Yes. Okay. So, that's seven extensions and uh nos or none. That passes 70. The new number would be $8,19.

Okay. So before we go back and vote on the total amount for this section 4197, were there any other comments, questions, motions to amend? Not hearing any. I'll call a vote now for approving the section 4197 for advertising and regional associations in the amended amount of $8,19. All in favor?

I opposed abstained that passes 70. This is good folks. We're going to be out of here soon. All right. Um, keep going. What's that? You can always keep going. Can't hurt to keep trying, right? So, our next Oops. What did I just do?

Our next section is going to be uh healthcare. I think section 41 4415 health agencies. So, I'll make a motion to uh cons open consideration of section 445 health agencies and hospitals in the select board recommended amount of $33,394. Second motion by Paul, seconded by Scott. Wait, did I get the hang? Yeah, that was the select board's amount was 25,000. No, no, the bottom line. No 30. It's 25 for any.

Oh, for the total. For the total 33,000 individual. No. So, we have a motion on the table for the section for the healthcare and hospitals. And I guess I'll just open it up. Anyone have any comments, suggestions, questions, suggestions for changes? Just a question. Go ahead. Um, apparently the select board decided to level fund it, correct?

Based upon the higher request from the agency. Is that the whole thought process? Uh, we Yeah. So the actual was 16 16,700 uh for 2024 level. Yeah, we level funded it right across 2025. There is a uh a need and there are tremendous amount of services provided to this community from that agency and most of the agencies that present in that matter at all. So can I add Paul?

Go ahead. I just want to add that the board doesn't get to meet with the nonprofits and agencies. So, they felt that the decision was better suited to come from this group because you were able to meet with the nonprofits and agencies where they aren't. So, they just they level funded them. So, and I gave them some input on that, but

Okay. And I'll and I'll point out so that just to be completely transparent, the Lakes Region Visiting Nurse Association is level funded. Um this year we have in the budget $8,50 for B Penny Baker and they requested $8,044. So they're actually $6 less because we have in there what they asked for. Not sure what why that is there. Um, so this is something that I'll take the opportunity as you're new to the committee. This is something we spent time on in past years that um when I started over 5 years ago, Lakes Region Visiting Nurse, which is the successor to Nana, was getting $33,000. And certainly during uh COVID when you couldn't assemble

the services the the services that they were able to provide reduced. So we decided to reduce their funding and uh they've consistently asked us to go back. Um we've gone we went up last year from the 16,700 in 2024 to the 25,350 in 2025. They're propo the select boards proposed to level fund them but I think as Christina said um they didn't spend a lot of time on this because we had all those agencies come in a month ago and give us I I don't know I'm I per I personally will share that I'm always very conflicted with this. I think that these people provide services to the town and and our valuable members of the community. I struggle with the idea that we use the the power of taxation to force all of our residents to make contributions. I'm not real fond of that, but don't want to recommend zero funding because I don't want to cause these people horrible problems. If I had them away, I'd lean them down to eventually get to zero. But in past years when I've proposed that, the majority of the board has not agreed with me. So I've kind of stopped that crusade.

Based upon their presentation, they did highlight folks here in Bristol. Yeah. So having been around so long that you can quote us. Oh, you got way more. Go ahead. the um did you have your hand for us?

No. No. Go ahead. So we had always for as many years as I can remember down to 32,400 we had gotten it up to that and then when they were no longer nana there was a movement to reduce it um feeling like they weren't it wasn't our community organization and because of the presentation by whoever was in charge at that time we reduced the amount as I recall and then Walter wearing made a passionate request for us to increase it again based on the fact that they were providing more services and doing more. My concern when I heard that they were selling the building was that that was going to mean they took a really big hit with this whether we could support them still. But from their presentation here, it sounds like they're still going to be providing the services that they have been. So, originally I would have thought perhaps this year we'd be looking at going back to the 334, but I'm comfortable with staying with the 25 350.

Yeah, you you bring up a point. I mentioned the fact that I mean before CO they had blood pressure clinics and foot health clinics and things they could do and during CO they had to stop doing those because you couldn't assemble people. I had forgotten and less brought up they they've also gone through quite a bit of turnover with their executive director and the people that we saw this at this point have been there just a little over a year but they had uh the person who was here four years ago was made a very strong impression and not in a good way and then the person who was here three years ago seemed better, but he didn't. They had problems with him, so they've moved on. I I think that they are provide a valuable service to the community. I I just they're to me their fundamental business is to provide home health care, which is primarily reimbursed through the federal government. And that right now is not in a really good place. But the amount of money needed to fix that is way more than what Bristol would be able to or willing to provide. So I think sticking with the 25 is probably what I'm most comfortable with, but I'll stop talking and see if anyone else has any other motions or suggestions. I think I would pro most often likely be the one to propose going back to the original amount, but I'm comfortable with the 25,000. I think um I know there's a lot of folks in our community who are in a in a really bad way right now. So I'm comfortable staying flat on this.

Yeah, me too. I'm not I do not in any way want to raise it at this point in time. Nope. No, and and I I will share I made this suggestion last year, so I'm sharing it again mostly for Brian's benefit, but I had actually said that for me, I would be willing to support raising Lakes Region at the expense of taking away from Pemmy Baker. And that had no support from the committee. So, we didn't spend much time talking about that. We can raise it to we can raise it to $356.

Yeah, but Penny acres are as many people almost as as Lakes Region. So, their service has increased quite a bit and they didn't ask for any increase whereas, you know, it's like they relying on this from Lakes Region and I I'm not so sure that's a great thing to be um for a any company. Um, I asked them to send the paperwork on this to break down their crisis which would, you know, kind of figure out why we're And that's the correspondence that you have. I know you want to go to the correspondence after, but this is pertinent to what we're bringing it up if you basically and you had asked for it.

I had asked for it. Exactly. So, which which kind of has a breakdown of what um their revenue is and what you know um you know they they have to like pay out of pocket type stuff. Um, so basically to me that's helpful. Um, but you know to me the top line and and they do provide a great service. Um, so I get that you know and everything and it is our duty to help them out a bit but it's not our duty to take over uh for any of their shortcomings as far as I'm concerned. They're a company to begin with. 30, you know. Um, so I I'm comfortable with the 25. You know, I didn't actually want to go up last year, but I'm comfortable with the 25, but I would not be comfortable with the 33. Um, but if you didn't read this, this is a breakdown of their their stuff from Lakes Region and the mental health links region mental health as well. They were nice enough to send something, so I don't know if you had a chance to look at it. All right. So, I don't want to cut people off. If somebody else has a question, a comment, or a motion to amend, I'm open to that. But not hearing that. I think at this point we can go ahead and vote on this section as is un amended. 4415. Speak up now if you Okay. So, we're going to vote now on approving section 4415 in the original amount of 33,394. All in favor?

I thank you. Opposed and extend uh abstains. 70. That passes. All right. Now we go to the bigger one which is outside agencies 4652. So I'll make a motion to um open consideration of section 4652 outside agencies in the select board recommended amount of $39,98. Second.

Motion by Paul, seconded by Scott for section 4652. Am I Yeah. So, this one has a lot of lines in it. I expect we'll probably spend a little more talking about this. I don't have any motions to amend at this point. Does anyone else want to bring up a specific line or ask a general question or make a motion to amend? for voices against violence. I'm not sure I fully understand here. Okay. What don't you

So, there were two amounts two amounts provided by the vendor. Yeah. And we put the we put the 10256 in. We mentioned it at the public hearing and they didn't ask us to change it. So, I'm assuming that's the phrase. I'm not assuming, but that's the number we put in was the one that was on the cover letter. So, is that is that is that does that answer your question? I'm not sure what your question was. So, did you get Yeah, it just the note mentioned that there were two different amounts and we put the lesser amount in and really my question was just is that the right amount that the agency was requesting or not?

It came up. It came up in the meeting when they were here and they were see if I remember correctly they were a little surprised there were two numbers and said they weren't significantly different and yes that was fine. Okay. Did anyone else remember or have any different?

Okay. The only other comment I'll add, um, and I don't know if Transport Central I haven't had a chance to watch the the video from that meeting. Um, but I do know that they had a portion of their funding cut. Um, and very very important service for community members to make it to appointments. So non-urgent medical transports is a big part of what they do. Um, so I just mentioned that I see that They requested 3,000. It looks like we have them funded at 2,000, right?

Yeah. Transport Central asked for more money and SW board level funded, recommended level funding. Voices Against Violence asked for a big increase last year, which we agreed to and now they've asked for even a further increase and the select board voted to level fund them. And can I just ask Scott with the select board level funding lollies is that again deferring to us because they weren't at the m Well Scott can answer that. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So,

um I am double checking on the last line that says the $500. Um, we think that there may be a way for us to take this out of the budget, go back to the way we used to do it, and we're checking with NHMA now. So, if I can, I'll bring that back to you. You're talk you're talking about um line 838 with the community garden. Yes.

Okay. Just to finish what I was talking, I just wanted to mention there there is a third line in here. uh CASA um is has $500 in this year's budget. They asked for $750 and the select board actually didn't level fund them. They they left 750 in there. So those are the three lines that I see. And then Christina brought up the last one which and link to mental health was local funded. Sorry, I just wanted to point that out before you went on. They asked for

Oh, they asked for more, too. I missed that. Thank you. So there's four lines where they ask for more money. Transport central, Voices Against Violence, uh Lakes Mental Health, and CASA. They may have missed CASA when they

Okay. And then this last one, my your note, the note here says that it's a that it's a um it's a new line in the budget and it has to do with uh more of an accounting thing than a than a funding issue that if the that if we approve it or not, it if if it happens, it's grant funded. So it's not tax funded. Correct. Correct.

Correct. Well, I don't have any motions to amend. Does anyone else have any questions or suggestions to change anything? Um I don't know if again if anybody had a chance to look at Lakes Region Mental Health, their breakdown of their um amounts which would justify at least to them that they would like the increase due to all of these um increases that they've had to deal with. So I don't sure if this is something that anybody or everybody has read that was sent the paperwork Well, I will admit I glanced at it, but I didn't read it in detail. Well, um,

links, I just think that I'd like to make a motion to, uh, give them the amount that they're asking for, which is the $8,716 as opposed to the $7,000. I'll second it. That's what I was going to ask for. Okay. Okay. So, we have a motion by Sue, seconded by Joe, to amend uh line 675 from the current value of $7,000 to a new value of $8,716. Since it's your motion, Sue, you get to talk first about

Yeah. Yeah. I just to me one of the number one um issues, you know, not just here in the country, is mental health issues. Um, I just think that it's it's a really um rising battle that they have to uh fight in order to get, you know, some of these issues resolved with people. Um, and I just think that they need a little bit more assistance. Um, it's increased in this, you know, in our own town and if they don't get a hold of get a hold of it, um, it's could cause greater issues. Um it's part of the reason when they talk about the violence in the country it's not necessarily you know it's mostly I should say mental health issues I mean there there are people who have these issues that have never been seen talked to or whatever and where it is increasing I just think the need arises for them to ask for more money and I would agree to give that to them that's my opinion

I'll wait and see yeah go ahead

I was just say, you know, agree with the motion simply from the perspective that um services like mental health are about to be in a position where a significant portion of what they do will be unreimbured moving forward. Um uh and I while I struggle with the notion that a local government should be backfilling what has traditionally been an expense provided by the feds um I don't think this is a this is a safety net service in my opinion um and so I think we have a responsibility to ensure that organizations like this are able to to keep their doors open. Okay, I I'll think about it some more because we're not voting yet. My first thought is that I don't support this. I think that they they provide some services in Bristol. I mean, I've heard, not recently, but in the past, I've heard the police chief say that uh they do provide services in Bristol and are are valuable, but I think of them mostly with their headquarters in Laconia and in Plymouth and in I think in addition to the mental health, they're doing a lot of things on substance abuse and homelessness and think that they have expanded their scope in ways that they're not just about mental health anymore.

Go ahead. I'm probably going to regret saying that. No, I I think what I would say is most of those issues that you mentioned go back to mental health issues. Yes. And that in the end if we don't support the mental health help, we're going to pay more with police and other issues, drug issues, you know, self-medicating, all those things. So, I think that's almost an investment in the community.

I think it's it's probably worth noting, too, as a community mental health center. The state of New Hampshire helped create this construct to put mental health in communities across the state where it just simply didn't exist. So, you know, you're I say that in the context that you mentioned they've expanded services. They work I won't say they're not a part of the state government, but they are um contracted for a lot of the services they provide from the state. Um so the state signs contracts with them to provide respit housing. The state contracts with them to do um uh I forget what they call it but it's essentially a critical kind of triage team to reach out to people who are experiencing let's say suicidal ideiation and prevent them from going to the emergency room and racking up a big bill. Um, so these are organizations that um, they don't have a private incentive to do something for profit purposes, per se. It's it's a much it's about as nonprofit as a nonprofit can get. Maybe that's a good way to phrase it.

Okay. Anyone else? Not hearing any more comments. I think we can go ahead and have a vote on the motion to amend. So, I'm going to call a vote on the motion to amend line 575 from the current amount of $7,000 to a new amount of $8,716. If I I don't think this is going to be unanimous, so if I could see hands so I can count, I'd appreciate that. All in favor? I

All opposed. The motion passes 61. Any other uh changes that anyone wants to propose? All right. Not hearing any other proposals. I think we can go ahead and vote now on the bottom line here. So, I'm going to call a vote for approving section 4652. in the new revised amount of $40,814. Did I get the math right, Christina? No, you're not doing it. Okay,

you did. No, I was waiting for the document. It's 40,000. It's So, it went from 3908 to 4814. Yeah. So, we're voting on section 4652, which is outside agencies in the new revised amount of $40,000. $40,814. All in favor? I I opposed. Last, will you? That was Yes. Sorry,

that's okay. I took my glasses. I don't know if I missed it. Um, that passes 70. Wow, we are flying. Let me get back to the agenda. So, we've done the three sections we're planning to do today. Um, the next item is the minutes from our last meeting on October 28th. Uh, see, I'll start with the motion to approve the minutes of the October 28th meeting. I'll second it. So motion by Paul, seconded by Brian, and now we will correct and amend them before we approve them. Can I start with our just two touches?

Oh, excellent. Um, at the bottom of the first page, the last paragraph says motion to approve the minute should be minutes. Sorry, I didn't catch that at all. Can you go again? because my mouse wouldn't it's it's under the it's on the first page under review and approval of minutes. Got it. The second paragraph says motion to approve the minute. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha.

And then at the very at the top of page two um in the second line it should be the Lakes Region Visiting Nurse Association. It says and Lakes Region. It's just grammar. Okay. If you don't put the B in, it sounds like it's all one grammatically. Did anyone else have any uh corrections or desires for changes? Not hearing any. We'll go ahead and vote to approve the minutes as amended.

All in favor? I opposed. Abstain. So 601 the minutes are approved back here. So correspondence um we talked about the correspondence from at the last meeting which has been distributed to all of the members. I don't think that I have any additional correspondence since our last meeting. Uh, does anyone else does anyone have any correspondence they want to share with the rest of the committee? Christina, do you have anything to share?

No. The the schedule that we sent out to you is just cosmetic changes. There's no date changes in it. We just wanted to make sure you had the the most current one. So, other than that, no. No. Okay. Can I just ask a quick question? I I I meant to ask this a second ago, but um if the committee would consider removing nonprofits from the appropriation list that we we discussed, you said at a further later date. Do we know when we're talking about Are you looking at the minutes? Uh yeah, the minutes from last week, staff comments. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, we can we can I didn't know if that's something we were supposed to do today or another time.

Good catch. I I think that that is something we do want to do tonight. So, um, that's not really under new business. We'll do it. I guess we'll do it under under comments. Excuse me. Um, usually we start with the select board. Scott, anything going on at the select board that you want to share that we need to know about? No. Okay. D. Uh, no. Just that you've seen the project moving along. Paving will be done on the 24th. Yeah. Trees are going in this week.

Yeah, they are in. All right. I've been on. So, the trees are in. Okay. And we had a water rain break. Oh, yes. Last Friday. Jeff and his crew. It's actually the third in a month. Wonderful. Jeff and Highway. Um, when I drove by at 6:30, I felt so guilty. I turned around, went back. And then I'm like, I'll feed you. What do you want now? We're done. Like, great. I'm going home. They all been in the same vicinity or scattered. Scattered. Different locations. Lake Street, Summer Street,

Beach. Beach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Summer Street wasn't our fault. Um Oh, we did meet with Jeff. Um we did tour the facility uh down at Water and Sewer and you know, they like they're keeping up maintaining the system as best they can. Uh they try to do a lot of stuff in house. They take pride in that. So, we have some skilled employees down there doing that. So, And they still have one open position. The what? The um the equipment addition they were talking about. I don't

they uh Jeff was talking about um applying for some grant monies, but um basically adding a great slash filter um at the beginning of the system to catch all of the paper and um flushable wipes and all the stuff that gets ground up and the grounding isn't working as well as it it should. pumps are grant pumps are very old. Um so the state is recommending the system that goes in front of in front of that to actually as things go down there pretty cheap at I think we're talking around 150,000.

It's an inc I I actually watched it the demonstration for it down there. It's pretty neat. And what there are two different ones but one will go way down in um and it's only like that wide. Yeah. Um, so they're I would anticipate seeing that in the next next year or so in India's capital budget. Okay.

Um, they did also get awarded a grant for asset managements on the wastewater side. Um, so right now it hasn't been determined. They have been awarded a grant and for $30,000 and they can do a loan with New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services for $30,000 which will complete the whole project. Um, it hasn't been determined what they're going if they're going to move forward with the loan yet. Same project has been completed on the water on the water side. Okay. I do remember the year that they had done. Also, he mentioned they're looking at putting a couple of vehicles um up for sale for their vehicles.

Um they have a new vehicle they need to get lettered. Their vehicles come from purchase through their um capital reserves. Yeah. No, not in not in the budget. Right. Okay. Um, that's it for the select board, right? I believe so. Okay. We can come back if you think of something else. I I I want to go back to the to what Sue brought up, which is I had brought up earlier that um I think it's Brid House and Katie and Dayway and

I think even even First Family or whatever they're called. Help First.

Help First. Thank you. They had asked for money last year, but they didn't for this year. So that my feeling is that they're not procluded from asking in the future. But if they've gone two years with not responding, let's take them off the invitation. Let's save ourselves a little bit of an administrative load that I mean, the staff handles it, not us. But but we don't need to send those notes out to people who who haven't for two years. So I think I don't I don't didn't want to make that just as a as a arbit arbitrary is not the right word but as a I thought it was something that we as a meet as a committee need to all review and agree. So, I'll make a motion to uh approve a policy that um after two years of not responding to uh requests to submit a funding request that we dropped them off the invitation letters and

continue go ahead with that. Okay. So, motion by Paul, seconded by Joe. Did I say it clearly enough that it that we can vote on it? Felt I stumbled a little bit there. Any other comments, questions? So, we'll go ahead and vote. All in favor? I. That's seven yeses. So, against against nos and abstensions or zeros, we'll add that to the the bottom of our tracker. Perfect. So, um, and then we'll go around the room. Any other any comments that you pursue? Any comments that you want to share? Brian, anything else? Less, anything you want to share? I'm good. I apologize for not eating here the past few minutes.

We're glad. Well, hopefully everyone is healthy and you're doing good now. Much better. All right. Um I think that's it. So before we take a motion to adjourn, I'll just say our next meeting is actually next week. And so next Tuesday the 25th here at 6:00 and we'll do um well the list is there but it's it's a lot of the planning zoning um assessing assessing is the majority of of that and the list you're GTCC patriotic yeah I forgot to tell you sorry

the other the other thing I'll just mention before I forget going back maybe to comments is I haven't gone to all of them, but I've gone to the majority of the all committee meetings. And one of the things that I think has been a pretty standard comment there is that we have the it would be nice to do better at communicating, and sharing to let people know what's going on, that we're all pointing in the right direction and going direction. So I I reached out to Christine and I said, I know that we, you know, we don't need the whole planning board to show up and we're going to consider the planning meeting, but I I said I think that just in the in the my feeling was in the idea of overcommunicating that I I asked Christina to work with Joanne to reach out to all the boards and committees because all the all the department heads are already going to be here, but all the boards and committes to tell them, hey, you might be interested in this part of the budget and the budget committee is going to handle it on this day. If you want to come to the meeting, feel free to. They're always free to come to the meeting. It's a public meeting and they're members of the community, but I just thought it was a way to kind of in one of the things I challenge myself to is when I say, "Okay, I'd like other people to communicate more." And then try to turn it around and say, "Okay, what can I do?" That's what I came up with. So, I don't know we're going to get a lot of people to show up, but we're going to make sure that everyone knows.

Go ahead. I was just going to um we are going to do that. Um but we also I wanted to make sure that everybody knows that we do go so Joanne will go with and meet with the planning board and go over their budget and they vote on their budget at their planning board meetings. But I understand having them here to have if there's something that comes up and they need to answer a question, it's nice to have them here. So, and I want to make clear, I'm not saying that we're demanding that they come. It's not a but it's it's an it's an invitation, but we don't create their We just I just want to make sure we don't create their budgets. They vote on them. They they

But but they could but they could say, "Hey, the budget committee is going to discuss our budget. They could change it. I kind of would like to be in the room when they're talking about it." I don't know that we get a lot of people to say that, but I we might get one or two people that'll say that and come to the meeting. It's true. You did change conservation commission on them once. Yeah. Who picked that? Then all of a sudden, I'm doing that every year. All right. All right. I think I've gone long. I think that's it. Anything else? Someone want to make a motion to adjurnn? I'll make a motion too. Motion by Sue seconded by second.

No. Seconded. Second. Okay. Motion by second by to all in favor. Motion is adjourned. See my first attempt. Sorry.