Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

number. A 900 number. It's a 900 number. Oh god. Let's not go there. You're going to be on camera. You better remember. Okay, never mind. Yeah, sometimes they were legit. That's what I say. All right, you are live. All right, let's call the meeting to order. Do we have any updates to the agenda? No. Okay. Any public comment? No public here. All right. Well, here we are. Sound plan. Allison.

Okay. Um we we talked a little bit about the regional future land use map. and um it's part of meeting the requirements of act 181 and act 181 is a pretty substantial overhaul to act 250. So at the core of this mapping process is to identify areas that can receive greater density that might be eligible for act 250 exemptions and then all the other areas. And so all of the the we're required to use 10 land use categories and all of the regional planning commissions need to map their lands the same way. Um the advantage here is that if you have dense areas that are have or are eligible for place like village center designation then uh you may also be eligible to receive exemptions for act 250 in the future. Um, the maps were drawn up with the goal of of meeting the overall planning goals of Vermont statute. And as you probably know, every time you adopt a plan, um, there are required elements in your plan and then there are statewide planning goals that you consider. So this isn't something that would be

different or is not changing land use goals. The other thing is that a required element in all local and duly adopted plans since as long as I can remember has been to have a land use a current and perspective land use map. and towns have gone about this different ways, but hopefully this provides some information that could help you update when you update your land use maps for your town plan.

So, I I saw that thing that you sent us as far as Essex County and it was all one color. Yeah, I don't think that you you I sent the right attachment. this. It was just a link and it was the link back to the homepage for that stuff, Alison. It was it was there was no file attached. Okay. Oh, okay. Because I was wondering how Essex County was going to be affected by this. No, this new regional map.

So, these are this is this is what we came up with. Remember Liam who came to the last or second to last planning commission meeting. So, first of all, something to keep in mind. This is not a zoning map. This is a map that shows where your densities are, where you intend to encourage higher densities, where you intend to encourage more development, such as in your village center. the areas that are um zoned for higher density and that are served by water and sewer and then um the outer lands. So if we start here with the pink, this is your existing village designated village center. Mhm. started with that and um because we have some opportunities to expand on those boundaries. Um those areas in in the designated village center have always received certain benefits like um eligibility for tax credits for fit up for certain income producing properties. um certain priority consideration for grant funds and now add to that um potential eligibility for active 50 exemption for it's a partial exemption um 50 housing unit up to 50 housing units on 10 acres of land. Um, looking at the way that you have zoned these areas that are also served by water and sewer and allow for greater

density and in a robust mix of uses, we think that you can pass the straight face test and and add these areas to your center of development. So, and this is a this is a closeup of it here. So you got here 2024 village centers and then village centers, right? So this is this what's in pink is what you have now. That's right. That's your legacy designation. Y here we think you can add those. All right. Thought that were existing. I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Okay, got it. So then you have

I can I can't quite see where you're talking about where you can add. Okay. I think the dark pink. The dark the dark pink is what you can add. Okay. And it's and it's weird because when you're sharing this um it the colors look different, but it kind of looks like the legacy designation area looks kind of peachy or white. White. Okay. Yep. It's kind of pink on my screen anyway. Yeah. And then I just took a picture of your map when I was in the office.

Okay. Okay. So then um those areas um you know we we've mapped we started by mapping the existing designated village area this area and then we decided if it could be expanded to meet the statutory definition and the statutory definition is and this uh is mixeduse centers bringing together community economic activity and civic assets. They include villages, new town centers, and village centers seeking benefits. They're the traditional historic business and civic centers within plan growth areas, village areas, or may stand alone. They're not required to have public water, wastewater, zoning, or subdivision bylaws. But you have all but the subdivision.

So, the only thing that I see changing here is the village centers here. pretty pretty much you you could expand that designation area. Yeah. And expand the potential benefit, but I don't I don't see anything changing much here or here.

So, these are transition areas. I want to make sure. Yeah, these areas along Pleasant Street. Yeah. For your reference, and they're showing up in bright yellow on your map. And on Railroad Street, um you have some transition areas that also allow for um a mix of uses and greater density. So and and for a certain degree of infill. So um we thought So you think that greater density would be more housing?

It could be. it could be one of the uses that could be encouraged there. It really um the transition area designation is more of like it's a broad category that involves a broad range of uses. It could be like low density commercial development. Um it could be a combination of residential and commercial. It could allow for infill development. Um it it can mean a lot of different things in different facilities, but um so when when Liam was and I have to refer to our notes on this one. Um so they are it's they generally

right there. Yep. This is this is infill. This is transition infill areas. This is transition and this is transition. This is an enterprise area. Um that would be on East Brighton Road. That's where Tree is. Yes. Yeah. And the airport tree area. Yes. See what what really hurts us in some of these areas here is the government owns the land. I mean Conti has taken over a lot of this here. A lot of this is owned by them now, which is where um Richard owns that Richard right here. This is this this is Henchaw Road. Yeah,

I I live I Let me see. Uh no, this is Henchaw Road. So I live right around in here. Richard is up in here. So what's this yellow here? That yellow is just rural general. So there are three categories of rural lands. And the rural lands are you know in theory like this is done on a transsect concept. So you start with the densest areas and then you radiate out right. So the areas surrounding the centers of development would include like rural general which is generally just like your typical low density. I'm sorry I'm looking at

trans No. No, that is I'm sorry that is rural general and around here they typically follow roadways. It's um low density development. It could be traditional rural businesses um like contractor yards um and could housing be possible in that housing is possible there. Yes. It's just it's it's just it's lower. The only thing that these areas here in dark pink now uh which is new these village centers that means that we have to change some of our zoning bylaws for those areas.

Only if you want to get partial exemption for act 250, right? you would add sub if you were to get subdivision rags, you could apply for what they call tier 1B status and get um partial exemption for act 250 development for up to 50 housing units on only those purple areas. The pink and the purple areas combined. Yeah. So nothing like here. No. No. But I mean that's that's significant. I mean to achieve act 250 exception. Well over here. Yeah. Yeah. If you can find space with 50 housing units up two up to Well, right. Up two. But

yeah. Um I mean I just talked to I mean I I I could see 50 housing units going out of town here on Right. And that's what I'm saying here right here. And it's not necessarily you're probably thinking of like single family homes. I'm talking like dwelling units. That's right. I understand that. Yeah. Um because because in these areas right now it's it's very rural as far as fields. And I mean it could be developed into some nice housing areas, but they're they're privately owned, right? I mean it.

So the predominant land use in our entire region is this teal green area. On your map it has the words in white not a zoning map and that's rural a forestry. So you know and basically you're talking like continuous coverage of forest coverage. Yeah. Mhm. I mean, and this is my opinion now. Yeah. But from Henshaw Road up through in this area, I I could see development happening up there. Uhhuh.

But it's it's owned by less than six people and they own it all and then after that the KI the government. So, I mean, if we were to expand, let's say, in in housing, you know, multi-unit buildings, I mean, I could see it happening in these areas in here, but they'd have you you'd have to approach people to sell off their land. Well, not unless they wanted to do it themselves. Right. Right. Well, one thing that you might want to look at are some of these transition areas that are joining the village

area and see if um there's some, you know, if if there if your zoning could be changed to make it part of the village center. I'm not quite sure how that would work, but um the other thing that you could do is um if you were to adopt subdivision regulations, one of the reasons we didn't have designate like a planned growth area. Um planned growth areas require subdivision ranks. So, if you had an area that was served by water and sewer and you had zoning and subdivision rags, then we might be able to revisit some of these um transition infill areas and then determine if they could become planned growth areas or village areas. And those could receive a neighborhood designation which could also

qualify for I could see that happening in the next 50 years where in order for growth to happen those areas are going to have to be part of the village area. So it might make a lot of sense for us to look very closely then at subdivision regulations if we wanted to allow for plan growth or village areas adjacent to the village because then you could extend those same b you would have what they would call a neighborhood designation and there's also um a potential for benefits for tax credits And I think it is also tier it would also be that potential for the tier 1B exemption. So

So I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Uh, I know that we're planning for the future, but I think our immediate concern shouldn't should be focused on the village area and taking advantage of any new growth we can put in there in terms of dwelling units. I I think that's where our emphasis should be because that's where we can most easily hook them on to water and sewer. And you know, I don't know that we're I know we have a housing shortage, but it's not like people are going to be pounding down the door to for new land. But

let let me ask you one one quick question. some communities uh that I'm familiar with uh these areas in pink right now because of the Main Street situation where Main Streets USA has gone down the toilet and they're trying to get it back and revitalized uh they're considered by state and federal as depressed areas and they get tax exemptions. That's the same thing that you're getting. Okay. So we are get we are doing but you can um for so in other words this is a depressed area here because it's it's not necessarily a depressed area. this the the downtown and village center program

y has been in existence for decades to try to redirect reinvestment in historic areas where people maybe are are less inclined to so so these areas these tax assessments are usually less they're not based on tax assessments it's owners of income producing properties who want to invest in in those can no apply for that, but then they could put that money back. There are tax incentives, right? But I do see some communities they they do some communities do give you a a lesser tax rate for these areas.

I know this for a fact. Yeah, it it might be and it depends on the conditions of of the community, but it has nothing to do with the village center designation. Okay. Okay. So I I was just I just wondering that'd be a tax stabilization thing you're talking about that the town could agree to lower the tax rate on an industry or somebody coming in for a certain period of time. Yes, that is correct. Yep. So, there is a new um it's kind of like a TIFF program um and it's unfolding as as we speak

and it's called the Vermont Community Housing Investment Program, CHIP. Yep. But again, that's kind of like a tiff program so that you could be able to put, you know, the the um tax increases or the property tax increases from new investments back into your district. Um the guidelines for that are still unfolding. Yeah. Brand new. So, yeah. But it's a statewide tiff program.

Okay. So, but yeah, I think what we really need to do is look at some of these transition infill areas and they do have a potential for becoming neighborhoods either plan growth areas or village areas. And while I understand your concern Joel is that you want to make sure that everybody puts all of their in focuses their investment first into the village center into the core. I mean there's a certain amount of investment that in the surrounding areas that also might make investment in the village core more desirable at the same time. Yep.

I think there's a way. So, if you got more people building and and living in this area, then you're going to grow and you're going to need a restaurant and you're going to need this in in the village center, right? Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And maybe more school, you know, the school. Yeah. Um, we'll see how that that pans out.

So, um, that it's it's just something to consider. Um, I don't know if it makes sense to consider everything on this map as a as a transition area as a potential plan growth area or a village area, but I think it does make sense to look at areas like parts of Railroad Street and Pleasant Street and this area just south of Derby Street. Yeah. This this as neighborhood adjuncts.

Yeah. to your village area and with you know the adoption of subdivision rags you could benefit from this. What kills us is the lumbiard and the cemeteries. Cemeteries prime land always cemeteries always well but the areas here that do allow for additional infill development. I think we should look at them. Even if it's on a, you know, if if it's smaller that Where's the cemetery? All along here. Along there. And all along Pleasant Street. What about here? It's Cemetery Street.

But what about here? It's that lighter area on the map. Nope. Right here. That that's Birch. And what about here on Railroad Street? I'm looking at this right here. We're kind of in this area. We're kind of flood zone that that's a flood zone. Yeah. Nobody's going to be able to get insurance. So, we excluded areas that were in the SFH in the special flood hazard area when we as far as I'm concerned, this is all flood hazard area. Now, I the thing is it's like FEMA maps. I don't think Railroad Street is actually considered really.

No, not the street itself. It just they just there's only a few properties in town that actually have a flood designation on them. There's not many. So, we excluded areas that were in this in the special flood hazard area on the FEMA maps and we also excluded the river corridors. Yeah. From the Yeah, because I can I can see that. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, some of these areas where you see like dark green like narrow strips, those are probably just river corridors. Oh yeah. And so those ended up as rural conservation land. Okay. So that's what this that's it. If it's really close to the village, it's probably a flood hazard area.

Okay. So there you are. That's why it's dark green. Yeah. So like you said, who's going to go there? Nobody. No, but I'm just talking about in those orange areas along Railroad Street. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of single family homes right now that are from the 30s. That's why I'm liking this area. There's some property there that would make some nice homes. Yeah. Where I mean you could build How many homes did they build in? This is 20 30. What's along here? Because this is two acre lots. You probably have 10. 10. But you could do multi. Yeah. So, but what's this? And this is an end.

That's all the lumber yard. That's where all the uh railroad and Can I make marks on this? Yeah. You got a pen there? Just grab my pen. I just This is all This prime area of the lake is all lumberyard. Yep. So, is Enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to make sure that I This is Sweet Tree. That's basically Sweet Tree. And over here, not all of it, but Right. I got share of it. Yeah. So, this area here is zoned for what? The pink the the the um right now that's going to be the wastewater treatment plan. It's on the map. It's on the map. We're talking about the

105 area on 105. the transition area on 105 that's in between Sweet Tree and the yard. That's near Back Pawn from Back Pawn on Ray Rose. This is Lake Street right here. That's going to include Mars's campground. Yeah, that's right here. No, that's right. Right here. Make sure that's neighborhood residential. So, this this weird color right there, that's the campground because that's Oh, yes. That's considered a recreation resource area. That's all campground even from that is going to be the pit that um

it's all this light whiting trucking. Whiting trucking is right here. Truck. Okay. So that's Rural General. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's right in here? Sweet Tree is right here. Yeah. Yeah. This is just um that's Richard, right? Uh, well, see, this is Henshaw Road here. So, I'm right here. Uh, Richard is right here. So, I'm talking this right here. Is this primarily residential? Uh, it's nothing. It's got a garage there. It It's It's mixed light commercial. Okay.

It's mixed. What's the underlying zoning district? Uh, that's rural on our map. It's rural. Okay. Rural one. Yeah. And you said this is the cemetery that right there. Oh, yeah. And then there's cemetery is all along here after cottage road that goes this way. So this is all cemetery. This coming up the hill is all cemetery and on both sides. No, no, no. That's residential there. Residential. Yeah.

All in there. That whole that whole orange area is mostly Would you describe this area the single family homes? Yes. Yes. This is all single family along here. Um little bit of cemetery right here in the rural general lands there. Yeah. So the cemetery kind of goes along like this. Well, it's different cemeteries. Different. You got the Russian one, the Catholic one, the town one, the Which one is the Okay, so there's the cemetery here. The Catholic one is down here somewhere. This all along here is a is cemetery, believe it or not.

The Catholic cemetery is the just the first little section as you're going out of town. The rest of it's all public. Yeah. This is the point. This is Blueberry Point. Yep. That's Blueberry Point. That's residential. Yep. This is all These are all camps. These are all people's camps all along here. Camps. All camps. Is it worthy to note that the sewer stops partway out Pleasant Street? Yeah. The sewer line stops right around here. I think about where the the purple stops on the map, Joel. I think is where they have it because I think that's about Okay. Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. So sewer stops right here.

That's Belleview. And that's just beyond that's the road that goes up to uh uh what's his name? Kill uh goes up the hill there. Oh, you know Kill Farm. Yeah. So far is right at this line. Yes, that's a dead end road. Okay. Yeah. But it's but it's serviced by water. It has water. Okay. Yes. Um, and everything around the lake has water. All water. Yeah. Not this. Not here. This is the old Route 105, which has water around Backbone.

Okay. This side of Route 105 has no town water or sewer. This is probably the line of demarcation, right? Yeah. And all of this all the way around the lake all the way up to here is water only. Okay. State beach is right here. Mhm. Uh no, I take that back. State beach is right here. There's looks like there's some dense development in here. Yes, that's that's all fields. Some of it's fields, but I'm seeing houses. I'm seeing structures through there. Yes. And so what's on there? Uh there's a whole decapitated house and

town town water and sewer stall right here. Uhhuh. But then it's all there are there are residential homes. Uh there's no water here. Nope. No water, no sewer. All the way to 114. There's no water, no sewer. But this is this is all this is all one big home. All this area here is all one one home. So, but these are mostly homes that are single family homes that some of them are in need of repairs, repair

or being built here on Railroad Street. So that's we're here now. We're you you kind of this is where the railroad tracks go along here. So So you don't have much footage between some of the backs of these homes to the tracks. 50 ft maybe. Some less than that. Some some of them less than that. Absolutely. What are they? Uh single family homes. All single family. Is all single family

except for the beehive. pick up the beehive, but that's up in this area, isn't it? In this area, and there's one that's down um this is all single family. There used to be a store here, but now it's just a warehouse, but it's owned to allow next. That is correct. That's right. Y the old store, the next to the old feed store, there's two vacant lots there because it's the houses that burn down. That's true. Empty lots now. And Kenny's house has got an apartment in it. So there's some multi-unit. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Um the one right before the bridge is also multi-unit. Yeah. Because this is where the treatment plant is. Mhm.

And uh then from here down I how I wonder how far the sewer goes down that road. I forget now. Yeah. What's that? I should know that. after Middle Street south uh going north. It only goes as far as Clark Street, don't it? I think you're right. Yeah, I know. Over on the uh Well, where my sister used to live, that's not There's no sewer there. This is Middle Street right here that goes to the treatment plant. That's Middle Street right there. So, we have sewer that comes down here and goes up here. Yeah. I think it only goes to class street. Yeah.

The schools right here. I'm not sure whether those two homes passed the school or on the sewer or not. I don't know. The school is The school is The school is, but they have their own pumping station. They have their own pumping station. I don't know either, but they are not they would have a railroad street address, right? Yes. Hold on. They're also in the dark green around here and I'm wondering if they were included in dark green because there are flood hazards. Yeah. Okay.

Metal street floods here. This this floods. Yeah. All this floods here because you got you got a I can see the stream. Yeah. You have a culvert there. Yes. This it's too bad because this whole area here is is open to development. One guy owns 96 acres here and the rest of it is owned by the farm. The farm. How much does he own? Rest of it. I know. It's quite a chunk.

Oh yeah. Big chunk. All the way up to this point right here. Two miles two miles upshaw road is where it starts. Well, that might be good for future development. Yeah, it's going to be a long future though, I think. Well, we probably done it right here in this spot. Well, that's uh that backs up to the lumber yard. Yeah, there's houses. There's houses. It's all houses because you got like hillside acre. No, this is like Current Avenue in here, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh a mix of housing types. Uh there's a lowinccome housing. Yeah.

Up here somewhere is there's a house right here. Low low-inccome housing is right here. Yeah. Sewer stops at the school. Okay. Yeah, it does. Right. Yep. The two houses beyond it don't have sewer. Correct. Okay. Okay. So, there's a mix of housing types in this orange area is what I'm trying. So, there's multi-units, there's single family, and the other. I mean, some of some of this could be

if a developer wanted to buy two or three houses, he could build a 50 unit right here.

Yeah. So the other thing in the home act um if you're on an area that is served by water and sewer then um a small multi-unit like up to four units is treated as a permanent use as opposed to a conditional. So any of these areas that have are served by both could in in theory, you know, have some some small multi-units without having to go through conditional use because the state the state has changed some of the laws as far as how zoning is going to be treated. and what's going to be allowed in some areas and you if somebody wants to build a rehab center over here next to all these camps. So we we can't stop that.

Um and it could be two and three stories tall and we can't stop it. It depends if it's like a group home for for people that's been in place or that's actually a federal protection. Yeah. But didn't the state just adopt some stuff here just recently in the last year? Um in the home act that was in the home act duplexes are treated the same as single family homes. So basically you cannot have zoning that is exclusively for single family. We we have to change our zoning and and so because of some of these changes,

but so for just like a duplex but not uh but you you as as far as I recall from your if they want to put a group home here around the lake or a rehab center around the lake, we can't stop them. I think your zoning bylaw already has that protection in place and that was from we some of our zoning I Mike some of our zoning we have to change to meet these new categories.

If you look if you read the zoning revisions that I've sent out the multi-unit housing as a permitted use is all is part of that. I' I've made a lot of the changes that I think the law requires as far as group homes. We've you've you've protected that for a long time. We're Yeah. I It's in our zoning. Yeah. Yeah. So, the other thing is that I don't recall seeing any districts where you allowed for single family homes but not duplexes. Right.

So, that's right. We never have we never have had any. It's always been signal and double for every every place we've allowed one is the other. Yeah. So that you don't really have to change your zoning for that. Um I think the only area where you would have to as you pointed out is for small multi-units that are served by water and sewer. Then they're not they're not treated as a conditional use anymore. They're treated as a permitted use. They're still subjected to site plan review. Correct. So would that did we change our zoning for that? We haven't changed it yet, but that's in the proposed revisions that we've been talking about for a while now.

Yeah, correct. So that's one of the things we have to change to meet the law. So well to avoid the law. So anyways, this is this is what it I don't think that what we're depicting here is any departure from the development patterns that you already have. Right? It's trying to identify areas for opportunity where you might want to encourage more

um particularly housing opportunities. Um there you do have because you know If you were to expand on your downtown or your village senator designation and established a downtown program, um you know, you you could pursue what they call, you know, used to call downtown designation and then achieve full act 250 exemption in your in your center.

Yeah. Now, I've seen I've seen some communities where they have a onem radius for downtown designation. Some go up to two and three miles. I mean, some communities are are are that their downtown area. Well, St. John's, look how big that downtown area is. That's got to be at least a mile and a half by a mile and a half, right? Because it it comprises Eastern Railroad in May. Ours is probably half mile by half mile. So, should we consider a bigger downtown designation? Well, you are getting downtown designation here. You're pro You're more than doubling it. We're doubling it. Okay.

But, um I what I'm saying is um you would also have an opportunity to achieve full act 250 exemption for that center designation area. It's it's a it's it's a bigger reach. Yeah, we would have to support a downtown revitalization program. Um, like what what St. John'sbury, Hardwick, and Newport do.

I think this somewhat depends on just how much we can accomplish. um you know on the on the scale of things the likelihood that we're going to have an act 250 problem in this area I think is relatively low. Um but it would be nice to have an exemption and if we can manage it I'm fine. But I'm just letting you know that I I think we've got our hands full. Just

we did try to pursue it before they before they kind of ask the program last year. We were we were submitting an application to do that because Andy Mlan had had been after me for us to do that. And I mean our concern is always the same that we need that down we have a downtown organization that could do that but we don't have any volunteers to actually do the work. Yeah. Right. And that's the problem we run into. It's like, okay, well, we have the forum that does exist. It it could serve that role, but we need people, right? Right.

It's kind of if we if we brought in more housing, maybe we could bring in more people, more people would volunteer. But it's kind of like, oh, but you which one do you put first? So, it seems to me like a a realistic medium-term goal or short-term goal would be to achieve the tier 1B with a partial exemption. But your community also benefits by having a a strong downtown organization that has a full stable of volunteers to promote downtown revitalization. So,

it it makes sense to keep that long range goal in your plan. Oh, it is. What what I will say the other issue I see in a place like Island Pond is the fact that that downtown organization then has to have, you know, design. You have to have a design district at that point. Yeah. And that becomes sticky in small towns that you're going to tell me what I can and can't do with my property. Whether we're really going to be that stringent or not, it's the perception. And so if if NVDA wants to help small towns figure it out, we need that messaging. How do we get across that it's not where we're going to tell you you can't do anything with your property?

But that's the message that comes out from those kinds of things. It's, you know, and and I think in a small town like Island Pond, that'll be very hard to sell.

So, um, politically, I think it was too difficult to lift for Newport City. And so they met that requirement by um they will continue to meet that requirement because they adopted form-based code for their core. And to me that's a little less about you know aesthetic regs and more about function. But you know so that's something to consider. you it's it's that's not the only way you can meet that requirement through like design control. You could do it through form-based code as well. So, if we were to go with this plan that you have that you're showing us tonight

and made our downtown uh designation bigger and some of the areas are changing in color a little bit, does that mean that we have to conform our zoning to this plan? No, because we already drew these areas up based on what the underlying zoning was. Okay. Oh, okay. So, okay. Um, you know, Joel is right. You do have some fixes to make to your zoning, right?

Um because of of other statutory reform, but um really the the only thing that you would have to do here if you wanted to maximize the benefit from this is to adopt subdivision rights. Do you have a town that do you have model? Is there does do you think the League of Cities and Towns maybe has model subdivision rags that we could take a look at? Because we have something called subdivision rags in our zoning, but I guess it doesn't.

Yeah. Yeah. But they're not. So, we're just um as a matter of fact, I just handed off an edit for um enabling better places that um one of the Vermont planning modules was just expanded to include um I hate to use the word template language, but sample language for subdivision regulations. um things that you could consider when you are talking about um larger developments in in adjacent to centers of development. You do want to think about like connecting streets and walkability um and how it connects to your major roadways and what it's doing to the traffic there. So, um, a lot of the, um, subdivision rags that are sample subdivision rags that are kind of floating out there are more focused on suburban type development in rural general areas. And in that context, it probably wouldn't help you for the downtown

area. But um there are some things in that module that would be worthwhile looking at for sure. But it would but it would pertain if we are talking about the development in the other yellowish areas there, right? That they're that would pertain if you were if you wanted to like Yes. because then you could think of them more as like neighborhood areas, right?

Um depending on you like where you actually wanted to encourage more um more dense residential development that complements the village core. Um so then you would want to look at um you know like street orientation where the connecting roads are if it's multiple you know multiple structures that or you're creating a new private road deserve that development. Um

well then the other thing that we had we should be looking at is you know this would kind of give us a way to to start thinking about okay if we need to expand the sewer. I mean right now we only have 400 and some odd sewer users some point that sewer system is probably going to need to expand at least a little bit to make it feasible financially. Where could we where could we put an easy connection to that sewer line where we could encourage development where that that I mean you know it's futures planning. So but by expanding you mean growing new customers. Yes. Yes. Not growing the service area. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. But I mean the thing is we we may need to I mean if a new neighborhood went at the end of the line okay well you make the developer of that you know 10 unit housing they put in the sewer connect to our current sewer. You picked up 10 extra users with little town investment and that's where that new chip program might come in handy as well. Yeah. It might be a win-win for the developer and for you. Um, so yeah.

So just just something to think about. U would think was something like this program that we're we're doing here. Would that help us getting grants like for putting a sidewalk that would go completely around the lake. We've got this beautiful jewel here and other towns and cities and Wooki and Montpelia and not Melia but Burlington. They they got these walkways where people can walk. We have no sidewalk around the lake at all. Well, I think um we try we kind of tried that, but nobody wanted to give up any of their frontage. Well, if you wanted an impossible task,

if you want an impossible task, that's that's it right there. Yeah. I mean, what about um about some of your sidewalk infrastructure and some of those transition infill areas? Um are there areas that are not walkable that you need additional investments in sidewalks? So, Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I could see I could see talking to uh the lumberyard and giving us a right to put a sidewalk all the way around that part of the lake right to Lake Street. I mean I mean I mean anything's possible. I mean you know eminent domain can do a lot of things. Yeah.

I mean but we're not I don't see us really working towards that goal of trying to utilize the lake here for pedestrian or bicycle traffic or or anything like that. And and that's big that's a that's a big draw today. Right. And I don't I don't see us utilizing that. I mean, it's too bad that what I can tell you the the issue with it is is the majority of the land around the lake is privately owned. The town doesn't own that. So, we don't I put a path on somebody's land. I mean, it's, you know, there's a cost. We have to buy it because we don't

property. We have to buy lakefront property and ruin people's front yards and the lake front yards to the lake. So, they do it everywhere else, Joel. No, they they they they they build sidewalks where you know a sidewalk would go. I'm not saying they don't do it. I'm just saying there's plenty of other stuff we need to do before we invest money like that to try and get I mean it's just we went as far as we could with a lakeshore path on the land we own. It's just it's work. I mean it's work and money to get that done to do something like that. We tried to put a sidewalk out Pleasant Street and the people fought us. Really?

Yep. Yeah. And then the one to the school, remember the school one? And was it why did they find it? Was it overcost or It was we'd have we'd we'd have to lose they'd lose their flower beds was one of the issues. And we volunteered to move the flower beds for them. We would p the town would transition and move the flower beds back, but the people on Pleasant Street did not want a sidewalk on their on the lake side of Pleasant Street. They just didn't want it. They voted it down. We had a grant for it.

We had a grant for the school one. We I think our fortune was $75,000 and they voted it down. You're kidding, right? That's cheap. Well, it was many years ago. Well, that was it. And then we were only going to go as far as the feed store and and that's when we found out that a sidewalk to the feed store was like $400,000 at that time, right?

And we decided that that it's easier for the town to contract. It's cheaper for the town to just contract on its own and build the damn sidewalk than to try and get uh grants for it. just um the the requirements that they put in it for building construction are so severe that it costs so much money just to go to the feed store. So we abandoned that. I I was not in actually I I I voted against that project myself after getting the grant money

because it wasn't what we wasn't what was originally intended. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't have one. But it was also argumentative an argument as to whether a sidewalk was appropriate to the school because if you have a right now people use that wide shoulder to bike and to walk and if you had a sidewalk there that would conflict. So you'd basically you know somebody would fall off the curve. Stop them in Burlington. They use it for both. Mhm. Well, but that, you know, it's they don't have a separate bike lane with a walking lane. They share it, right? Well,

I think there should be a sidewalk at least to Meadow Street, you know, but I think if we ever do it, we would do it ourselves rather than get a grant involved. That was a conclusion we came to a while ago.

Anyway, sorry. Okay. Well, well, no, it's it's an important thing to consider because um you know, pedestrian infrastructure is is also going to factor into if you're designating neighborhoods. So, if there is infrastructure that's missing that you want to prioritize and identify it in the plan, this now is the time to do it. Mountain Street and South Street. Mountain Street sidewalk goes way out there, but it's desperately in need of It's too It's too rough and too hard to walk on.

And it's safe because it's very high off the ground with no kind of a guard on it in some places. Yeah. So, it major overhaul and repair. Yeah. So, that was Mountain Street and what was the other one? South Street South Street has a sidewalk that we hate people we don't want people to use right now, but it it there should be a sidewalk there. There's a problem area where it drops off like 10 ft and there's no guard and so it's kind of overgrown and that's okay, but it shouldn't be that way. It should be

South Street's another area though where there's a good chunk of land next to John Manning there. Um where there were two there was the big Victorian was there and the other house that was down below it. Um, and those are just vacant lots now because the houses are gone. And so it's that is another development opportunity down through there because it's a pretty goodiz lot between the two of them. There's a good size lot down avenue on that. Uh, we own a 50 used to own. I says the town owns a 50ft right away where from where Larry Ming used to live. You're going to end up in people's living room.

That's good size field there. They could put a couple houses in there wider than that. 65 67 feet.

What would be nice for pedestrian is if we had a route, you know, that people wouldn't have to backtrack, you know, if we could figure out. I mean, when we put the lakeside path in, we were going to we wanted to bring it all the way out to the end and then bring it back on the parking lot, but we couldn't figure out how to get up the hillside without having a with a 12 to one slope. But the idea was, you know, people wouldn't walk all the way out and have to walk back on the same path. They walk a circuit. So, if we could figure out a walking circuit, it would be nice. So we do have that downtown housing tour at some point. We do like a reconnaissance tour to identify the areas where we want to prioritize on infill and redevelopment. But I think we also want to keep in mind areas that need investment in pedestrian infrastructure. This is really helpful. Yeah. Well, we know the downtown, you know, the main corridor down cross street needs it, but that's already on part of part of the downtown project.

Yes. So, this is everything around that is not necessarily designed.

Yeah. This is now we're thinking phase two and, you know, beyond here. So, as far as a sidewalk on Railroad Street, we always wanted one down to at least metal be because it would keep people from parking on Railroad Street because that's always been a problem. We have a sidewalk there which is just a road shoulder basically and people park their cars and then that's they're on the sidewalk. But if you had a sidewalk with a raised curb, they couldn't do that. So that was one of of That was a thought that was popular for a while anyway. You mean like with a green strip or something?

Pardon? You mean like with a green strip? Like a sidewalk with a green strip? No, no, there's no room for a green strip. It's just It's the road shoulder is the sidewalk. You would bring the sidewalk up. Oh, okay. So if you had a curb sidewalk, then you wouldn't cars couldn't park on the sidewalk. Okay. Got it. They They probably would anyway because there's no other place for them to park sometimes. So the sidewalks, huh? Why are they parking there? Oh, the sidewalks. You bring it up four inches. They'd have a hard time climbing there. Well, supposed to happen is you're supposed to pardon shovel front. That's correct. Yeah, there's no other places to pack. Yeah, but why they live there?

There's housing down there housing right tight to the sidewalks. So they allow for on street parking and I get it. Okay. Actually it's a no parking it's a no parking zone but they park anyway. They don't it's not like there's a ton of cars there but you know it's not unusual to find somebody's car parked on the sidewalk while they run into the home and the car just sits there for half an hour or an hour or two. Okay. Or wouldn't be able that wouldn't be possible if there was a raised sidewalk. And why aren't we ticketing? See it? Is it nice? Why aren't we ticketing? We don't have anybody to issue the ticket. Oh, yeah. Beautiful.

We have to dig up that ordinance somewhere. But that's a that's a question not that I can't answer. Why aren't they being ticketed? It would be the sheriff who would have to do it. And I don't even know. I'd have to go look up. I don't even know if we have a a b an ordinance against parking on Railroad Street. I don't know. I don't know either. I know there's signs. That's all. Yep. Well, there used to be signs. I think they're all down there. Well, yeah. So, like anything I think most of them are gone.

Well, like anything else, you can pass all the all the stuff you want, but if you don't have enforcement, it means nothing. And that's part of the problem in this town is not enough enforcement for anything. Well, that's any town, you know. I'm sorry. Everybody wants like hardcore policing, but then if you do hardcore policing, you have the whole town in uproar because then they get a ticket and then they don't like it. We like it hardcore enforcement. And then you know Mark Valanc Court's driving down the street 5 miles over the speed limit and he gets a ticket and I have to hear from Mark about why is that police officer pulling me over. I was only going five miles over the speed limit.

Well, you know, you can't have ways. It's either hardcore Teddy Miller or or it's, you know, somewhere in between, which is where we are somewhere in between. You know, parking is probably not the priority for our sheriff's department. They don't have time for it. How many hours a week we can afford for They don't have time for it. If the town wanted to adopt a a civil ordinance and name somebody, find somebody who would be the enforcer, then that could be done. Or we have to pay that person, which is another to pay the person. Oh, no. Mark would volunteer. No, I wouldn't. I do it for a cut. Oh, yeah. For speech. There you go. Do it for a cut. No, no, no cuts.

Doesn't work that way. We got golf carts going through your intake, huh? They're not. I'd have that sidewalk paid for by the end of the year. Not on the street. We went down that route work very well. Ruin the town still hear about it after on the town roads. You're allowed. No. Yeah. I talked to the sheriff about it. They're not. All right. So, that's about what I had for today's Oh, that's true. I was just hoping to get more input on that future land use map. Honestly, I don't if the golf cart I like the expanded areas. You can't register a golf cart. Yeah,

those are good. You can't ensure a golf cart for public. I have seen some land in the in the expanded areas that I think could be developed. I had one coming up right up Main Street with something more something denser, you know. Does it make sense for me to come up

with these people? say like a little parcel map of the proposed downtown area and the adjacent area and then just mark vacant areas that we might want to that might I mean just just for us to have so that we can think about or I mean I might also be able to do that off the E911 database just come up with a parcel map and highlight the vacant lots. Sure.

Well, the thing is there's some lots that are that are large and there's a house on like one portion of it and then the rest of it just kind of sits as you know woods, you know, would you be able to talk those people into subdividing that off? Yep. So, we could do do this a couple of different ways. We could come up with a map that one lots, you know, identify lots that are completely vacant and then we could identify lots that only have like maybe like 50% building coverage. Less than 50% building coverage.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think you're going to have more of those. I don't think you're going to have that many vacant lots. We don't have that many vacant lots in town, but we have a lot of we have a lot of lots that are, you know, oversized for for what's there. It's, you know, it's just how, you know, they they subdivided off little pieces of their land, but then didn't do the rest of it. So, I'll start I'll start I won't I won't do it in a public meeting, but there is a couple I could send you that I did look at over the weekend when I was up there and that I thought I could see condos or town houses or even an apartment building. Something, you know, that would be denser than, you know, one house stuck on a 5acre lot. Yeah,

I saw some spaghetti on Derby. So, 150 ft wide by 1,000 ft deep. house up by the road empty. Mhm. The one thing to keep in mind when we talk about building development outside of the village center is um if the town if the town has to have an investment like if we have to improve the road uh because of a development that cost shouldn't bear we should be careful about whether we're spending more money than we're making in in growth benefits from broadening tax base.

So at some point that would what kind of developments that would require a road up. Go ahead, man. you have a I think it's something to think about is where are we at the where when do when when do you reach the point where you need another police unit right your population when you need another fire truck when you need another road crew member a new road you know those things sneak up on on you and you think you're making this money and broadening the tax base and then you end up having a fire engine right

so if you get if when you that the town all the the costs of growth should really acrude to the people who town who are doing the growing. I mean if we have to widen a road at our expense because of a development that that I think has to enter into the equation. Yep. Why is that necessarily our expense? Well, it doesn't have to be. That's what I'm saying. We want to avoid that kind of a thing. If there's a cost, if you have a developer come in and subdivide a 10 acre lot and wants to build houses in there and it's going to add, you know, 10 or 20 cars to the road

and it and and road standards call for doing something. Who pays for that? So, that's where really well-written subdivision regulations, right, could come into play? Behind the chicken. That's what I'm getting at. Well, they should also be chipping in on the sewer plant upgrades. Oh, they would have to pay for the whole thing. No. Well, I mean, they're wondering why no development happens. Y Well, I think that's in any um building like that that the contractor Yeah. They're they're responsible for that.

Yeah. All of our like our neighborhoods down here, all the subdivisions they have, you know, that the state tells them what roadway improvements they have to make. They have to put in water, they have to put in sewer, they have to put in all the conduit for fiber. That's right. All that gets put in by the developer. Yeah. And I don't know if we're going to have that level of development in Iowa. I doubt it. In our lifetime. I doubt it. But if you had act 250 exemption for them, it might sweeten the deal a little bit if they had to put for all these other things. 250 is a big expensive thing. I mean, I think our our Well, if we could get a developer that came in and added 10 units at one time, I think that would be a huge development.

It would be. It would be. Sure. And I think, you know, in most cases, we're probably are talking about gradual incremental infill and what they often call gentle infill, but I think it makes sense to map where the potential is. So, do you agree that like maybe the next logical step is to come up with a map of the downtown and maybe the immediate joining areas and just identify areas that could be entirely redeveloped or subdivided to add additional development.

I I think that would be great and I think it would be great for the town to have that if somebody comes calling and somebody comes knocking, you know, we'd like to come to town. We'd like to do development, but we don't know what's there. You know, it's always great for us to say, well, you know, you could look on Railroad Street. Well, but but is that a reality? You know, if we actually have something to back that up that, okay, these we've identified these are properties that would probably meet your needs. Yeah, I think that would help a lot when it comes to people because people do come knocking on town's doors. I agree. Yeah, that that that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

All right. So, I will get with one of our mapping people and then I'd like to take this back with me too and just I've been making annotations on it and I want to share some of that feedback with Liam and just get his take on it, too. So, I'm going to steal the map back from you. That's okay. I don't want to have to hang it back up again because it was a nightmare on the thing I had to hang it on. Yeah. We don't get it back, we'll go gunning for you. There you go. Right. Okay. Right. That's all I have. All right. Thank you, Alison. Yeah. Thank you. Very informative. Um, so

so can I ask did somebody pick up the flyers and stuff for the survey that were printed out and left there in town hall? There's all the surveys were there and all of the flyers were printed out there. Didn't know they were even here. I I haven't seen them, but I see a stack of papers here. I don't know if that's what it is because those if they don't get put around town, they're kind of pointless. I I keep checking to see if anybody has anything. They're right here. And so the postcards should go out tonight. Um, I thought it was just to hold the fan up.

We did have to I sent you all an email on it, but we did have to pay more in postage because it was it was just a nightmare. Um, so but it turned out to only be about $245, not 355. So, you want to distribute some? No. And I believe a stack of the surveys with flyers are the important ones. I don't need this. But where else do you want me to put them so I don't Okay. So, we got I can I I'll bring some to my store. Said you were going to distribute some. Y I'll come up and get a few tomorrow morning and take down to the food shelf with me. I was going to say you should take some to the food shelf, Billy. I would think that would be a good place to get some of the people in town.

Yeah. Here. I'll pick them up in the morning because I have some go down to the food shop now. I'm take I'm gonna take these and no filling those out yourself. What's that? Oh, Billy. No filling those out all by yourself. I'll try not to. So, and this is use different color pens. Right. Left-handed left hand. Yeah, right handed with my toe.

Do them online. And so we will also be getting next week we should probably get about 800 postcards that we can just use to hand out because they're the extras. We had to buy postcards in quantities of a thousand. So and we had like 1,200. So we have 800 extras that they're just shipping to us. They won't have any name or anything on them. But so we can just kind of leave those around town at the grocery store and everything. I think they're good. They have the QR code for people to scan or call Annie. like far away. It looks pretty nice, huh? Oh, okay. It's from the other direction. So, guess Catholic congregations Capellia.

The library will take them back these. Yeah, sure. We can. Yeah. Okay. The library or the town clerk's office, I think, is where we set it online if they can drop. Okay. Well, I just want to know and make sure so when I tell somebody I'm telling him, right? And Katie, even if we're not open for these, yeah, we're gonna go Katie, can you add that to the town website and the Facebook page and all that good stuff when you get a chance this week? Yep. First,

I actually can make a box and let them slide them in down there, but because I don't think if we're not open, they could just drop them in our book return, too. Yeah. If if we're closed, but Yeah. Either way. Yeah. Okay. So, do I guess we need to approve the minutes of the previous meeting? I'll make a motion to approve the minutes. Second. I I Any other business? No. Hallelujah. Okay. I need a motion to adjurnn. I make a motion to adjourn. Let's get out of here. Back to it. All right. All in favor? I. All right. See you guys all later. Yeah.

See you. Thank you. Bye, Mike. Hold on. Hold on. Let me let me let me stop the recording. Hold on. Yeah, that's what I was just going to ask you. Let me know.