Housing Board - Regular Meeting

is the meeting of the Boxboro Housing Board. Uh we're this is our regular meeting and let me uh call the meeting to order and start by a roll call. Uh Diane, hi. You look here. Yes. Joe uh here. Ben, I'm here. Good.

And I'm here, too. So, everybody's here. Um, at Joe's suggestion, we're trying something different to try to make ourselves more efficient. I think uh we're trying to assign times to the various items and try to stick with those times so we don't have an overly long meeting. Joe, do you want to say some a few words about that or we can just plunge in?

Yeah. No, just some quick words. Um I think the agendas in most of our town boards are are heavy as they are. I think the housing board agenda is going to become heavier as we go along. So, what I'd like to think is about think about long term if we're meeting monthly is to maybe focus our efforts on one or two priority items, but we don't need to talk about that now. In the interim, if we could just be time efficient on the items, regular business should be minimal time. New content policy area, the old business section is where we should be spending on our time.

Thank you, Joe. Well, let's see what happens. Um uh why don't we plunge in on the minutes? Oh, there actually are three minutes to be considered. The first is the minutes of March 24th, which is a regular house housing board meeting. I sent all this stuff out to you folks and I think we have pictures we can show on the screen. Uh do we have any discussion or errors that we found?

If not, I'll entertain a motion to accept the minutes. I'll make a motion to accept the minutes. Thank you, Diane. Is there a second? Yeah, I'll be Diane second. Okay. Thank you, Joe. Seconded. Very well. Let's have a roll call vote. Diane I me I uh Joe I Finn be with us Finn. Uh oh.

Uh you want to say something in the end? your hands are ra sorry you know um I do not see Finn here so maybe um if if she's not here then we might Okay, perfect timing. She is in the waiting room. Uh my note was going to be NACP NAPC. I just wanted uh to make sure that did get corrected in the final version to say MAPC, our our regional um planning council. Okay.

Hi Finn, we were just taking a roll call to approve these minutes. All right. Sorry. These are the minutes of the last regular housing board meeting that we're [laughter] approving. Yes. And and uh so I uh let's see you can you amend your motion to say motion to accept as amended because we have to fix the Okay. Motion to accept as amended second is now NAPC. Yeah. And Finns it. Okay. So let's start over again with a roll call vote. Uh Diane Hi. Uh me I. Uh Joe

I Ben I Okay, very well. The minutes are accepted. Uh the next minutes are a the meeting of March 30th which was a minutes uh which was a meeting that we held to review the um uh town warrant. Now, we'll discuss the town warrant uh the warrant article on the 800 p.m. later, but uh have you had a chance if you or do you have is there any discussion on the minutes?

Okay. Uh then I will entertain a motion to accept the minutes. I'll make the motion. Who who who voted the motion? I voted the motion. I made Joe made the motion and I think Finn second it. Very well. Uh let's have a roll call vote. I Dian's eye. I I am I. Joe I. Ben I.

Very well. The minutes are accepted. Finally, there's the minutes of the um the meeting we had on April 8th. Uh the work group I believe we decided that we it was a regular meeting for which we needed to have minutes and everything else. So there they are. Um and um does that does anybody have any questions or edits on that? Uh, I would just point out that Alec and I did not attend. Okay. So, you can either write invitees or something of the sort.

Yeah, you don't need to. I talked about you don't need to. You I would just take them off. You don't need to write invitees. I would just take them off if they wasn't weren't there.

So, I take off Alec and take off. Okay. All right. And any other errors that we we found? Not. Somebody want to make a motion to accept the minutes as amended? I motion minutes as amended. Thank you, Finn. Does anybody second it?

Oh, good. There there I'm sure there's really good seconders out there. I'll make a second. Good, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Seconded. Uh, very well. Let's have a roll call vote. Dian's I I am I. and uh Joe I and [clears throat] Ben I

Oh, great. The minutes are accepted. Very well. Boy, are we ahead of schedule. Holy smokes. Okay, so let's move on to old business. Uh, the first item is the estate planning letter. And I guess Ian, you're probably the one that knows Yeah. the latest about that.

I uh I did send I believe last time we met would have had we would have had an email from Whitney. [clears throat and cough] Um it was the end of March. She was going on vacation for a week and when she got back, I think I waited a week and then emailed her. So, you're talking a week into April and I realized last week that she hadn't followed up. So, I sent another email. So, that's two emails in a row um with no response. We've It's a long game of email tag, but um I I think I might try to call her office sometime this week because we're we're going far far past uh you know when David Gasser came in and not that the meeting is still unwarranted or anything but you know it is uh it's a discussion that's been a long time coming. So I will keep you updated Al. I know that you wanted to be part of that conversation and um yeah, all I can say is hopefully at our May meeting we will have a a update following uh a meeting with Whitney Demetrius of EO E EOHLC her position as director of fair housing. I know there was a question on that as well.

Well, it certainly has language for a while, but I really do think it's important. It's it's you know it caused problems and we certainly have at least one of those problems. So yeah, I think if we could uh somehow prod the system into dealing with it, uh I'm sure they're very busy, too. It would be a service to the whole whole area, I believe. What is the name of the organization that Whitney works for? The that would be the executive office of housing and livable communities

and she's the fair housing director. Correct. Does she Does Whitney have program staff? Do we know? Because um it's kind of hard to get Yeah.

in direct contact with directors at EHLC. I would probably expect her to um whether it's a deputy director or something. Um I haven't been able to find her. I I haven't looked recently, but when she gave this talk I think in January or February, I know she was new to the position, so I couldn't find her information online. Um, I'm going to make a note to look up her department, her office, and maybe get in touch with some of her staff that might be more available. Yeah, that seems like a good idea to me. Well, all I can do is wish you good luck, Ian.

Thank you. I hope you can get somebody else. Good luck on your continued journey. Yeah, right. It's about the size of it, but it is important. I mean, I I don't know how how it's managed to slip through the cracks this long, but yeah, good luck to you is all I can say. Thank you. I will keep us updated as it moves along. Um, let's move on to the sto. We're doing great on the agenda here.

Uh, I guess we should be more verbose or something. Um the the work group on on Stow Road Development did meet once and I think those what we did is covered in the minutes. We assigned um various tasks. Uh they uh pen has been corresponding with a person that's an expert in co actually an advocate I think for coal housing and um and [clears throat] I've done a bit of work just scoping out the problem. I've yet to contact developers because I really wanted to see um what more precisely describe what could be built there. So, let me just show you a couple figures that kind of summarize it. Do you have the Ian? Do you have those figures that I sent you there? It's it's in a separate Acrobat file

like the the maps with the layouts with the little town houses and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. That's it. You know, we had early on we had a group called GPR. I'm not quite sure what they what GPR stands for. It's design it's the engineering company.

Okay. So, they they did some looking and and and they actually kind of established some boundary values on what could be built there. These boundary values are not peculiar to the stove road property. They apply to every single square foot of property in Boxville. Um and what they defined was the uh one limit they they defined was the nitrogen loading limit. With a conventional septic system, you can only have add so much nitrogen to the soil via the septic system. And they calculated the limit and calculated the um the size of the wells that it would be needed that needed to provide that much flow uh uh that much design flow is what they call it. Well, this is a uh a drawing that shows the GPR design flow with the wells associated with it. You can see that you can have and [clears throat] what I did was just for yachts. I kind of scaled the Boxboro Meadows duplex town houses and put them on this map to see how how many uh Boxboro Meadows duplex town houses, you know, the GPR would allow. So, this is what this is. Uh you can see and the wells have also two areas. The one that's shown here is probably the most stressful. It's the zone one area that and that area the the town has to have control over areas. So over over the all the zone one areas and the zone one

areas for the wells which are up here in the panhandle [clears throat] region are are are are shown and you can see that they enroach on several uh other properties. We would have to enact conservation agreements with those properties and I don't know how difficult that is. I've heard mixed stories about that. in order to realize this and and also they found that um one portion of the property is soil that's particularly well suited for a septic system that's called Hinckley soil or 253B soil. Anyway, that's an ideal place to put a leeching field. So, this is the design they came up with and you can see that it's already crowded. it. But, you know, we can fit all those units in it. There's there's about uh there's 10 units in the units. Uh 20 uh 10 buildings, 20 units, and all they're all threebedroom units in this. So, that's one. And then the next slide, uh if you can scroll down a bit. Yeah. Shows Okay. Well, maybe u enacting those conservation agreements that you need in the other design will be really difficult. Here's a a well that has less flow, but it all its own was contained within our property [gasps] and and that everything scales down. And that's what the what this allows is uh about six of the Boxboro units,

12 Boxboro buildings, 12 units and with a uh the corresponding soil absorption areas. So that's kind of the the boundaries. I mean, you can mess around with this and do all kinds of different things, but that shows you a rough idea, I think, of the kind of development that that roughly the size of the development that we could place the road. So, I thought you might be interested in that.

The problem I would like to mention is that of two of those units have homes on them. Is the first one a home? The parcel 1D. Is that a home on there? Is Yes, there's a home on there. Yeah. Yeah. But that's that's part you're talking about this right here. Right. Where's the home? That has a home there. you. It's not on the map because on parallel ID oh I see ID 61165 you see the home outlined

I probably it probably just didn't get on this map but it whether there's a home or not there I don't think it among each of those yes I should put those in I don't think it matters though it doesn't really affect what we the have to agree to have some of their water. [gasps and sighs] In my understanding, now maybe I'm wrong, that there they don't need to agree. Uh on this one, no. But on the other one, it it goes into that pocket. That's right. Yeah, that's right. So, there would have to be a conservation agreement with each a butter.

Yeah, there's five of them. So yeah, I' I've asked people what uh whether that's could be a problem and some people said, "Ah, no problem. They do it all the time." Other people have said, "Yes, it's a big problem. The owners are not going to like that." I really don't know, but it is a potential [clears throat] problem. Now, I'll I'll know Joe has his hand up. He's had his hand up. I said Joel. [clears throat] go.

Yes. Hello. Um, so I've um I've got some questions and I've got an update and then I've got a proposal and I'll try to do that in that order. Um, my first questions are and I'm asking this because I'm still learning about the history. I'm still learning about the housing board and I'm still learning about what other boards in town who have looked at this and it's been looked at by many different boards. So that's my lens for these questions. I'm trying to catch up. I'm trying to learn what you guys have been doing around this. And so here's my questions. Um kind of Okay. Number one, what just setting context Al, what year was this plan that you're showing us? When was that done?

It was done about 12 years ago. Shortly actually shortly before we bought it, which I think was something like 2010. Okay. And so the purpose and context was engaging the engineer to look at the parcel. Is that correct for housing? Well, we we had to we did the study because we wanted to see whe there were any showstoppers before we bought the land. Okay. So, this was part of the study. Yes.

Great. Um and then I want to be really careful. I'm not an engineer and we can't claim to be engineers, but Al, uh Ralph, I know you're an engineer, [laughter] but not you're a different type of engineer. You're a scientist. I'm an electrical electrical engineer. Yes, electrical. Um, did I know you juxtaposed Boxboro Meadows, but did you show that to the engineer? No, this is something I did several days ago. Okay. All I did was scale all I did was scale the drawings.

And that's a good I'm glad you did it. That's a good because it shows our potential. Um that based on the due diligence and updates I'm going to share in a minute, I've finally had time to come up for air and research some of this stuff and reach out to other I've been talking to Alec, others, residents, other people from board planning board, ZBA, uh people I already know and I'm already friendly with and I'm just so I've been talking to them about this. Um, I guess what I want to be really careful from the housing board side is public this ju position. It's a good it's I I know why you're doing it. Um, to show the opportunity, but that's not going to work. I know enough about engineering. I'm not an engineer, but I know enough in engineering that that's not going to work. But it's a good model to show us what possibly can work. So, we got to be really careful about how we juxtapose that. Um, so with my updates, so I just finished my questions. My updates are and I got into it a little bit. I've been doing a lot of due diligence. Um, again, I served on the planning board, so I have I have um colleagues there. You know, I served on economic development, and I've been able to have a few calls. Um, the good news is people are behind this for housing. Okay. um since this uh 12-year-old plan, which is awesome. Let's keep referencing it. But since then there's been some more sophisticated planning and engineering work related to well flows, gallons per day, um

frontage, and there's also been um discussions about how to do it within Massachusetts general law and land use. And there's at least three options to do uh do it without special permit. Um, and then there's way I've gotten updates on ways we can cultivate this this parcel to both reach our monetary needs, housing trust and housing board, but also do a social policy um play as well with the housing development. Meaning, do we want senior housing? Do we want um more starter middle income um lowercase affordable not uppercase affordable or maybe uppercase affordable which I mean legal. So I um I think the timing on this I think we've hit a space where it's going to start moving quickly now. And my approach to is to be inclusive with the community and to um involve others. Um but a lot of input has already been gathered and um there's some plans in place that I think get us to a good place. So my proposal is um I'm not sure if I got assigned to the Stow Road workg group, but I would request I would like and maybe I even said no to it a few meetings ago. I can't recall but I would like to say now that if I would like to ask permission and you can say no it's okay but I would like to be involved in the working group and my proposal is if I'm involved in

the working group I can bring in um more of the comprehensive efforts around this um and we can make a public meeting um everybody can be attend but the working group will be driving it and we'll have and there's I want to do a presentation. Um I don't want to we have to move fast. The timing is now. But also um there's a lot of things we got to do messaging and marketing to the community before we start talking about um things like conservation easements. That's getting in the weeds at this point. So, we need to I I've we need to come up with our messaging. But what I'm going to propose, Al, is if if the if the board will let me be on the Stow Road working group, um number one, and then number two, if they do, um I suggest uh we have a working meeting next soon within the next few weeks. I can download and share graphics and plans. Um, and then we can talk about a plan to start engaging the public on this. Um, I was under the impression I only moved to Boxboro in 2015 and I started hearing about Stow Road just only around the fire station recently. But it turns out the town's been looking at this for a long time. So that's where I'm coming from. Um, we're in a good spot. Um, we know

there's a housing crisis in the state. Um, so I think we need to be very intentional and thoughtful about this, but we do need to move at the speed it's moving. So I'm gonna shut up now. That was a lot. But um that's where I stand on this. And I just also al I didn't have all this information when I first joined my first housing board meeting. I've only received I've only been able to catch up with that information in the past two weeks and I haven't been able to talk to you and I'm sorry. Now I'll shut up.

Well, there's one thing that worries me. I mean, I I'm all for you finding out as much as you can and uh asking all the people in town that are interested in to take part. We certainly want to be inclusive, but there are two general approaches to this. One is to build a development of the sort I've tried to roughly outline just now, and the other is to sell it and do something wonderful with the money. Um,

over the over the past two weeks, I found out at least two others, maybe four other options in addition to the two that you just laid out, but I have not had time to call you to tell you. Well, okay. Well, about Joe, how can you say you have three or four different scenarios while we only have two groups? either S or Bill, would you stand? I have strong feelings about this. You want to hear them?

Okay, go ahead. Lay them on. Lay them on us. You have the floor. If we sell it, we have no control what happens. Why is that? That's how the market works. If we sell it to a private developer, if if if that's all we want to do is sell it, we have no control. We've got to be more We have certainly have control over the money that we get from selling it.

Yeah. But we have no control over what. So from the housing board perspective, we sell the piece of land, we get money. We're trying to develop not develop housing. we just we're talking about housing. Um, that's fine. And I wanna I want to back up. I want to back up and that's fine if that's what we want to do. Um, but well that's that's the question. I don't I don't I don't I don't from what I'm hearing that's not what we want to do.

Uh, no. In my mind, that decision has not been made. There was another group which I thought you were part of to look at the pros and cons of monetizing the pro the well he wasn't he wasn't at the meeting where we decided he was in that group. We just kind of assumed because Britney brought it up that we should at least explore [clears throat] what that option would look like if we were to sell. Um so I think we you know just kind of put you in the cell group just to explore what that option would look like. Do you remember? I thought Joe volunteered.

That's where I' I've been. My life has been so crazy. I can't remember if I volunteered or if I said no. I think I think volunteered to be on be on the selling task force. Now, you know, it may well be the right thing to do to do do as good good a job as we can to put h housing there. And all I was trying to do with this rough analysis is give us an idea of how much housing we could put there. And that's great. And I'm not I'm not critiquing that. I'm just saying we got to be real. This is sensitive. this this parcel. Um, but there is a way to monetize

to the amount we need and have some real good control over what's get gets developed. So, we do have a path. There's some pathways that I've been looking at to meet our monetization goals through a sale while having deep control over what is developed. And I don't have time. I don't have my slides ready. I don't have time to do it tonight, but I I can do it soon. I can do it next week with the working group. Well, I think the working group on monetizing should have a meeting. As far as I know, you folks

I think we should have one Stow road. I think we should have this is are we all working on Stow road the whole housing board or are just a port and that's a question I have. That's where that's where my I might be confused. Is the Stow road topic both one and two on your agenda. Is that a subgroup of the housing board or is every all of us are working on it but we're parsing it out into different options which I think if that's the case we need to re we need to re-calibrate that based on what I have been able to catch up on in the past few weeks. Um I think it's the latter and I think at the last meeting we concluded that there were two general approaches. one to build something there and the other to sell it and do something wonderful for housing with the money and there's and there's and there's a there's a few other ways like I said there's but that to to explain it to to like I want to make sure you guys understand those are two um it's a zero and a one it's a black and white cell and what you know the option two there is a hybrid grid where we sell and make money and get to control deep control of what is there and it's through the laws already established. We wouldn't have to go through special permit. I I I can't share all that information right now, but I will share I'll be able to share it with a working group or the housing board within a week or two. I think the whole housing board would be interested in hearing all these other options.

Excellent. Excellent. I think that's the way we should approach it first. Yep. But I certainly I I thought at least the path we were pursuing was to uh flesh out the two options, selling and building. But there's more. All I'm trying to say is there's a lot more nuance to both of those options. There's a lot more layers and nuance under option one and option two. Sounds like it's a lot less black and white than we presumed.

It's not black and white, but it's good. There's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of opportunity to to So, I'm not I'm more I'm so excited about this, but it's not black and white. There's more nuance. And I've been able to pick up on and learn those nuances and a path to pursue like three or four viable options where we can monetize and improve housing in Boxboro on this parcel. Would you be willing to uh make a presentation at the next meeting on these options as you see it? Now, I mean, I I think that

picking up on something you said earlier, at the next meeting, it might be wise for us to involve other boards like the PL planning board for example. At least

if I'm making the presentation, I would request that I invite if I would request permission to invite other committees including select board. Well, I think everybody has a right to hear what our view of the options are, but I think we have the I mean, so this is an important property. We're not going to be able to make the the decision unilaterally, but I think it's our obligation and duty to make a recommendation. And that's what I'm trying to head for is to come up with some sort of recommendation or maybe a recommendation of several things that make sense to us.

Yes. And I'm where I'm go. I'm glad you said that, Al. That's where I'm headed. I I I I just need a little bit more time. Again, I'm playing catchup and then I'm moving really quick. So, I if you'll give me some time and if you want me to present this at the next meeting, I want to, but I'd be willing to do it sooner so we can get those recommendations to you. And I'm just saying the recommendations are more nuanced and a lot more positive in terms of future opportunity and nuanced than how than than how this black and white than how you're currently have it blocked in your head. I think I think maybe it sounds like it would make sense to have another meeting sooner than our next usual monthly meeting that's just dedicated to looking at what we all have so far on that and all the different options. And if you have a whole presentation and stuff that you want bring to the table, maybe you just have a special

The presentation will be ready. I can have it ready in by ne I can I can have it ready not next week but the following week. I'm going out of town next week. I'm gonna be working on it while I'm out of town and I'll have it ready the following week. Well, okay. So,

if I could hop in and just I'm looking at our calendar now, so it might be worthwhile to It sounds like you guys are presenting two options. One is to meet um before our next scheduled housing board meeting. Our next scheduled housing board meeting is the 26th of May. So, right now I'm looking at the 12th. Joe, I believe that's the week you're referencing. Not next week, but the following week. Tuesday the 12th. There's other nights that week that we can meet as well. Um, but if we're looking at Tuesday, there are some conflicts. So, it it could just be that it's a fully remote meeting. I'm not sure there will be much issue there if that's what you guys want to do. Um

I would say the 12th or the 19th uh Ian if possible. We do have a town meeting is the 19th. So I will just the 12th just [laughter] just the 12th. Well, it is a problem because if we want to get a lot of wide a wide participation doing it just for town meeting is probably the least optable time to do it. I guess or or or Joe, are you just um saying that you want to can you first present it to the housing board?

That's that's what I'd really like to do if there's time. And I think I think I think we Yeah, that's a great idea. And that Thank you, Wendy. We have a reason not to do it before town meeting. Let's decide on that. So, let's do kind of the that the next housing board meeting after town meeting. Let's say that's where we invite others. Mhm. Planning and that's Memorial Day. So, that's we were Yeah, we were originally planning for that. We were mentioning that as a possibility in regards to the housing production plan. They wanted to have a conversation about that. But this is directly related to,

you know, it's it's a piece of the housing production plan. It's about housing production in Boxboro. I don't think they need to be two separate conversations. So

that I I think it both be great if we could do it in one. Exactly. But to Wendy's point, if I could meet if we could meet have I mean it's got to be a public meeting because we're a public body, but if we could have a housing board meeting on the 12th and I'm uh I will be committed I will even share the presentation with you all before we meet so you can come prepared with questions so I can answer those when we meet on the 12th. I would also suggest um and I'm not sure that you know Britney's not here and I know that Britney was kind of leading the charge on the option of monetization. Um Joe, I'm not sure. You said you you recognized uh you know three or four options and I know that before you had brought that forward there was the option of monetizing and the option of um you know finding a a way to create a an RFP on our own terms. Um it would be good I think if we came forward to at least that meeting and presented your option as well as if Britney had anything to present and um I'm I know that uh on April 8th another working group had met. So um

well I think for the public meeting the housing board needs to be unified. I don't think we need which is why which is why I'd like to get it wrapped up in that meeting on the 12th. So okay we can have if the other if the other committee members are prepared to. Of course, if they if they just like to focus on uh yours, then then that is their decision to make. But um I'm I'm voluntelling Britney to do something when she's not here to uh to to say I just don't and I Yeah, I we've got to be unified for the Absolutely.

But we'll we can we can we can debate the models on the 12th. Well, let's tidally try to schedule something on the 12th. I I personally am all for far hearing about these other options cuz I um that that seems like very interesting, but I have no idea what they are. So, uh

could I also throw out there just for the time being because there are two committees that night. So, it will have to be entirely Zoom and I'll check with the other committees. um or I guess you know my boss and administration if if we would be able to host a meeting ourselves at night. Can I throw as a secondary option the 14th, Thursday the 14th? Yeah. If we do it on the 12th, it has to be a Zoom. Yeah. If the 12th doesn't work, I just like to have a fallback date that we can all 14th. Okay. Yeah. If I'm hearing no conflicts, I will I will put in both as

place. Did you hear? So, we just The only thing the only thing that day, Ian, is is that going to We have the annual town meeting info session from 2 to 7:30. Is that Oh my good. Yeah, I didn't see that on the calendar. I just did. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm pretty confident that we'll be able to do the 12th despite the conflict. I'm not uh I I think we'll be able to get it in. It it it's about uh the housing board meeting and getting on the same page. So, if there's conflict, then there's conflict.

Okay. So, I it sounds like we're converging on having the meeting on the 12th. At this meeting, we we will try to clarify the options and if Britney's willing hear more about what we could do by monetizing it. Is that a good summary of what we're heading where we're heading? [clears throat]

Yes, we are. And then I'll I'll add on to that. we we had alluded to it and we we can obviously get more to it in the in the next uh agenda item, but this would lead into a larger discussion for planned for Tuesday the 26th um to have a larger discussion on housing production in Boxboro as well as Stow Road development with relevant boards and committees, select board, planning board. Um, do we want to do it that day? That's the Monday is Memorial Day. That's a good observation. I did look a week out. The second is unfortunately town elections. Mhm.

So, it's the day after Memorial Day. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean it usually people want to hang out at home that night. Okay. But but but I think you could make you know what you could make the the argument about the HPP that we just made about the ST road thing is it might be good to get our act together before we open it up to everybody in town. So

I totally agree. We need to be unified. So maybe that that would be an argument for having the regular meeting not be a broad meeting but rather just be a meeting of the housing board where we you know try to coales these things talk about both these things. I like that Al. So we could go with the day after Memorial Day as the B as the housing board just housing board and we'll publicize. I will you know we'll market the meeting. It's public anyway. It's public, but we'll we'll be there. But I mean, I think and then

we should we should we should get our act together before we talk to everybody else because there going to be a million different ideas out there and it it will be a nonproductive meeting if nothing else. I think unless we do that. And Joe, just one thing. If you're going to invite, this is where we get really complicated. If you're going to invite other boards and three or more members are going to come, they need we need to do like a we I'll figure out the semantics, but that will be really important because we'll have to they'll have to do an agenda. It'll have to be a joint agenda. I want to avoid all that right now. Yeah. Yeah. Right now. And I want to say once you get to your big one, I mean,

well, I mean, what is Listen, listen, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. We're not going to do a joint meeting agenda. We're not doing that. Okay. The boards who want to participate and hear and be involved, they send one representative, a delegate. That's good. That's it. We want them there, but we're not doing joint meetings and postings.

Perfect. I'm just making sure. And in fact, if they want one of this the procedure that is used throughout the town as far as I know is if another board say feels it's so important that they want to send more than one like three members then it's their responsibility to submit an agenda that covers them. Okay. And I will not if again we're shooting for one delegate from each if if free planning board members show up. If free planning board members show up, I will tell them that they are violating open meeting law. Okay. Yeah, they know. They know that. I mean, if they they

we're all adults. We know this. Yeah. But I'm saying there's a workaround that they just they just submit an agenda for a planning board meeting and say this is to in case there's a possible war of a thousand board meeting. Happens all the time.

Okay. I will uh I'll say I I've been doing this exact same thing because tomorrow I'm hosting the open space uh the their first meeting and I've asked for one person from each of them and so I will be doing the same exact thing while when we start outreach for this uh meeting on the 26th I will say we'll yeah I'll send to the chairs I'll say you or one delegate from your board is invited to attend our housing board meeting. I thought we weren't going to do that. I thought the housing board meeting on the 26th would just us. Yeah. And the 12th and not the 12th.

I thought that both meetings, the 12th and [clears throat] the 26 were that. That's what I thought we were talking about. No, the 12th the 12th is our it's public meeting, but we're just going to be talking about Stow Road getting unified debating debating internally and ending the meeting unified. The 26th will be I'm sorry, no, the day a after Memorial Day. Yep. The 26th. Okay. will be the meeting we just talked about where three planning board members show up. They're breaking open meeting law.

That's the meeting we're have on the 26th. Um and that is just our unified Stow road recommendation. Next thing we have to solve for is or not [snorts] or maybe not recommendation but this is our housing board unified uh approach on Still Road. In addition, I believe that Alan but Ian was talking about talking about the housing production plan. I know that that's where I'm going next. That's where I'm going next. Then we need to set up another housing board meeting. Ian, help me with the dates here. That next one.

So, the next one, another internal another internal HPP. It's public, but we're only going to be talking about the HPP. Mhm. Um, and then we need another date after that, and that is the HPP meeting with boards and others. So, you're saying an internal housing production uh plan if if it's needed. We need an internal for Stow Road. I don't know what the group thinks about an internal for HPP.

Okay. Yeah, we can. I mean, we'll have time as well. I think uh I think it's good to stick to the first part of the plan with just focusing on Stow Road. Alec and I are applying to the community one stop at the beginning beginning of June. So once we hash out Stow Road through those two meetings, then I think we'll have a better idea of of how much coordination we'll need for um the housing production plan. I'll get to I mean it's right next to it, but originally that conversation of the uh you know multiple boards and committees came from the select board who requested our presence um as well as these other committees. They just wanted to have an open discuss discussion on housing production in Boxboro. You know, we realize that it's probably a better conversation for us to host. So, um

Yep. Yeah. We'll obviously do our best to go in there with a targeted approach. Whether or not we'll need a coordination meeting, time will tell. Um but we'll probably be looking out into June for that. So, I'm I'm fine with focusing on Stow Road for the next four weeks. and uh getting these these two meetings in the um in the books. Okay. So, they will defer the discussion of how the housing production plan beyond to the next meeting after the next four weeks of meetings. Is that right? That's what I heard. Yes.

Yes. And there's certainly a potential to bring it up at the tail end of the Stow Road meeting while we have a couple representatives there. Um if it's if it's something that they would entertain, you know, whether or not it's in June, July, even August, we won't have money or we won't hear back from the community one stop until probably towards the end of the summer. So we're not as strapped for time with that one, I'll point out.

All right. So I think what we're saying is we'll have a meeting to discuss various options on the 12th the special meeting and then on a regular meeting time the 26th we'll have a another meeting to actually uh on Stow road to do what a unified discussion to end up with a unified discussion on what we would like to move forward in in a more public forum after that. That's right, Diane. Yep. And so I'm going to present my more nuanced

hybrid which includes moneta monetization and um development and then I believe Britney's going to present if she wants to if she you know present uh her monetization efforts and then if we if there's others who want to present their research and what they but that's what's going to happen at that meeting and then we were going to discuss uh maybe some debate, but discuss. And we're going to ask for a motion for unification on what we present to the public. That on the 26th. That's right.

All right. Well, that makes sense to me. Does everybody agree with that? Sounds good. Sounds like a plan. Is that meeting on the 12th going to be at 7? Uh, well, that seems we it could be anytime we want, but I was thinking seven. Yeah, seems to be a good time. I wasn't able to make the last one because when you put it on the second Tuesday, that's taco Tuesday. I have a I have a thing. But I'll try to I'll try Hey, maybe I can we can bring like Taco Bell or something. Well, it's going to be Zoom. It's got to be Zoom. Yeah. Dang it. Zoom.

I'll be eating tacos while on the Zoom call. Okay, Ann. And what you're going to do is going to look into this and see if there's any other uh B any other problems that we're not thinking of now, but check around. I guess what you said something like that. Me? Yeah. So, I'm I'm just going to check to make sure that the 12th is good. I don't think it will be an issue, but I'll run it by who it needs to be run by. But it will definitely be a meeting via Zoom um with no hybrid option.

All right. on the 12th. Okay. So, that's a plan. [clears throat] Um, that's what we're going to do and you'll get back to us and then we'll send out the notice. Um, let me ask Let me ask now if when would we like this outreach regarding the meeting on the 26th to go out? So, we're five weeks away right now. Four weeks away. like that meeting will be the housing board to debate and come to a conclusion on what we want to move forward on. Yeah.

Well, no. I think what he's asking is um you re can you reach that Ian? Yeah. Uh when would you like outreach to invite one member of the boards for the 26th meeting? Yeah. Can I make a suggestion? If there's if there's time on the calendar, like legal posting time, c could could we get through the meeting on the 12th and then I agree I I agree with Diane. I think it's too soon to have the outreach on the 26th. I think we should after town meeting. What? Wait till after town meeting. Um that is after town meeting, is it? On the 19th. Voting is on

after town meeting's closed. I was just asking. I didn't know if you wanted it to go out early. No, it's a valid question with Joe. I think after the 12th and before town meeting might be a a good time where people are paying attention and once once you guys once the housing board agrees on a unified front too. I mean just in case 12 you don't. Yeah. I I think that I I don't I think the it's premature to have all the outreach on the 26th. I think we need to agree amongst oursel on what our the front is, unified front before we start talking about everybody else. I agree.

Yeah. And that's what we're going to do on the 12th and then we're going to hold off on publicizing to make sure we you know we there's a good chance I think in two hours on the 12th I think there's a good chance we'll be unified. But if we're not that's okay. And so we'll adjust our schedule, but know that if we adjust our schedule, that puts everything out and that that keeps this conversation going.

Having sat through numerous meetings on Stow Road that have gone absolutely nowhere. I don't share your confidence. Uh I think that we won't have a unified meeting. You don't want You don't You don't think the housing board will be able to unify? Um I think they'll be I No, I I don't think so. Not on May 12th. I think they may be after we define the options uh on May 26th, but I don't think they will be on May 12th myself.

Okay, let me let me clarify it this way. I don't even see the 26 guys. We got to give us let's take a step back. We're not making any transactions. What we say on the 26th, it's not a public hearing.

It's not. So, why don't we do this? And this is what I've been suggesting the whole time. We'll have the meeting on the 12th. I think knowing people on the housing board, we can get to unification on our own board. If not, we'll have another meeting and then there'll be more time. If that if everybody was okay with that, then okay, I'll go along with that. But if we're unified on the 12th and we're ready to share where we are, then we go ahead and publicize and share on the 26th and we also state that we haven't made a decision, but these are the options we're looking at and anyone is viable and we're interested in any of these options. We haven't decided yet, but we're presenting these options to new be to you because we've done a lot of lot of work. And so here's what we're thinking. We're not ready to make a decision. We can't anyway. It's not a public hearing. So, thank you for coming. Here's our options. Here's a copy of the slide deck. Think about these things. And then we're going to have to schedule public hearings and all of that. Well, I do

that's I think I think we can do this. Well, hope you're right. But I don't agree. [laughter] I don't think we will have a unified position after May 12th. So maybe you're maybe you're right and I'm wrong. I think I think it's our job to to want to be motivated. I I think it's our job to be motivated to get to a unified dis decision because I think we should trust ourselves. We're trying to do the right thing here tonight and Whitney can't make it. We need another couple meetings to to get it all on board.

Okay, that here's what I'm concerned about. They're just Corine and Britney have a right to hear everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. But if we don't if we don't meet and make decisions, the decisions are going to be made for us by other and we're not going to have control. Who's going to make the decisions without us? Huh? Who's going to make the decisions without us? Town. We're the we're the town body that is going to make decisions about this property.

We certainly can make if we don't have a proposal, there are mechanisms to move forward. We need to make a good proposal with very wellthoughtout recommendations. And I don't think it really is our power to decide unilaterally, but I think it is our obligation to make a wellthoughtout uh recommendation that has been adequately discussed. And I just don't think we can do it in one meeting. I think we need to uh

I disagree. I disagree. I think we have all the resources and information necessary and I think we need to ratify tradeoffs and start making decisions. So, I think the answer to Ian's question is that um I don't think we're ready for the 20. I mean, it doesn't sound like the morale is ready for the 26th, right? Correct. So, with that for the 12th.

Yep. I have a I have a standing task um with a question mark next to it at the end of that week to invite the boards and committees only if there is a unified opinion on the option for Stow Road. So, as of right now, just looking at the next meeting, that's what we have. We'll go through that. Um, obviously a difference of opinions and confidence here, but first step is is we got to have that meeting. And, um, I will shoot out an email to all of us tomorrow. I'm about 95% certain that we won't have an issue booking that meeting. And, um, and once that is confirmed, I'll send it out to everybody and we can look forward to having that meeting on the 12th.

Awesome. Sounds good. That sounds good to me. And maybe I Man, I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see. I mean, it might it might be a thing where there's a lot of information. We need a couple days to digest it before, you know, we know what to do with it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we should I think we should give us that. You know, I want to move f because again, I we got to move fast because I know things are going to move fast, but we need to allow ourselves Um, if there's, you know, what Finn just said, if we need another meeting or need a little bit more time, uh, let's commit to doing that, but, um, let's try to do it once, only once if we need to. Yeah, it just sounds like in the coming months we might need to commit to uh, more than one housing board meeting per month if things really do pick up with this.

I think you're right, and I think that's probably a good idea. Well, we'll see. We'll see what the momentum is like after the 12th. Okay. Yes, let's have a meeting on the 12th. We'll have a clearer idea after that meeting. So, you're going to put together a presentation for the 12th and we'll ask Britney to put together something on monetization. And Channing has something to present then to

Yeah, Channing has some information. and he's been looking at it from the the point point of view of the need of the residents which is a good perspective I think which I think is worth thinking about. So I'll reach out to at the meeting on the 12th I have no idea. There's uh there's a good chance he can get his papers in and be sworn in the night before by the select board and and be a participant of that meeting. Well, he doesn't have to be a positive board member. It's going to be an open meeting. He can be at the meeting regardless. Absolutely true,

but it would be better if he were a housing board meeting member. But yeah, he's got a document and everything he's working on. [clears throat] He's done a lot of work on it. Should I put together a slideshow like briefing what intentional communities and co-housing is and what it can look like? just like a brief I know we've talked about it a lot but um it's something that can be incorporated into a lot of different ideas. So, uh, can you all hear that? Well, the more I mean, it sounds like a good idea except that the more topics we

Yeah, that's why I was asking, do you want do you want me to do a little brief on that topic or we want to leave that off because we're still trying to want to do property? My initial reaction was to not do it just because it's an additional topic that'll, you know, confuse us and make it harder to come to some sort of consensus. Well, I mean, everybody's willing, everybody's free to disagree with me. I mean, it's something I can like present later on, right? And also, it's going to influence my opinions on the different options anyway. So, [sighs and gasps] I've talked enough about it.

Okay. Well, so that's it for May 12th. So, that's what we're going to do on the Stow uh Stow Road project and the housing production. Have we already talked about everything we wanted to talk about in the housing production plan or not?

Uh, we've we've jumped around it a bit. I will say that I I'll I'll re-emphasize that um this next month, May, Alec and I are putting together the community onetop application. Um obviously there is um a discussion around the ATM article. Um you know what? Before we jump into this, I I do want to make sure that we're fully flushed out on Stow Road before we pivot. I'm not hearing any opinions or comments. All right. All right. Wonder on the 12th.

Perfect. Um, no. Yeah. So, like I said, we'll be working on that over this next month and really honing in on the scope of services that we'll be looking for as well as starting to give some shape to the outreach that we'll want to do this summer. Um, as of right now, Alec and I have planned a summer forum series. Um, it'll be a really good opportunity for the housing board to put their hat in the ring and and show their ability to engage the public. When it comes to housing production plans, there is definitely a lot more. Um, it's, you know, we'll be honest, it's not necessarily as exciting as as planning for open space and recreation. It's about housing. It's a need. It's a necessity. And, um, Boxboro definitely has a lot of energy towards that conversation, but the groups that you target might not be able to always make, uh, public meetings at 700 p.m. or or come into town hall during the day to voice their opinions. So, a lot of the time what outreach looks like for housing production plans are surveys um that are cast out for extended periods of time. So, I would, you know, I I push for us to continue thinking about the outreach methods that we would like to see over the summer. Um, in the next couple of weeks when Alec and I are putting together this grant application, I will probably be reaching out to the housing board to get some opinions on a date in the late summer if you guys would like to do a public forum. Um, as of right now, I know that there'll at least be one date for the open space um, advisory group to do some summer outreach and data collection. There will

be another date for the sustainability committee to do uh a public forum on specialized stretch code and there you know in my head is another date towards the end of the summer that would give us ample time to have the discussion around Stow road have the discussion around a housing production plan for us to set up an event um where we can address the community their concerns and engage with residents on their thoughts and opinions towards a housing production plan and or stow road development. If we feel like by the end of the summer we're in a ready enough position to face out towards the community and ask these questions, then we are more than welcome to. Of course, we also can wait until special town meeting in fall to do that at info night. But, um, yeah, that's my idea of what this summer looks like as it comes to outreach. Um, but there's more of that to come shortly and I will be reaching out to you guys via email.

Okay. Then one more thing, Joe, you had reservations about the uh warrant article uh for I think it was 15K for I guess seed money for the housing production plan. We went ahead and put it in the warrant, but we want to have a discussion. you weren't at the meeting where we had. So, uh, this is your chance to convince us otherwise. Do you wish to do so?

Um, no. And I'm I'm okay. Um, I'm okay without I'm glad you had the meeting and discussed it and voted. That's fine. Um, I guess where I was coming from is um the politics of town meeting and um the politics around housing in general and uh I just I think there's maybe a more strategic way to get town money. I think I mean I think there's a chance we'll get it. I think there's a chance it would be approved. Um, but if it's not approved, I guess what's the plan B?

Um, I understand there's a lot of cash available right now that has to be spent and that's why it should pass a town meeting. If that then that then I then let's move forward. No debate. I'll move I with what Diane just said. I hope she's right. I don't have any more comment. Okay. Very good. Yeah, I haven't heard that, but I hope you're right. Kristen said that. Do you remember?

I do I do remember that they were really concerned about um the budget a while ago because there was like a company that left. Um but that afterwards they were just like, "Oh, if you know our actually our budget's good." Like, you know, we have a lot more money than we thought we would. So,

well, let's just let's see what happens to Tom Beans. So, it gives a chance at least it will pass. All right, let's move on. What do we have here? I don't Corine's not here and I I don't know if there's any particular item on the whole program. Wendy, do you have anything that needs to be discussed on the whole program? No, I I have paid out one um project. So, that's exciting. And the other I think three people that have applied, I have not heard back from for their invoices or anything. And I I don't know if I should follow up. I I just just let them be or I don't know.

What do you mean not heard back from their invoices? You're not sure the job's been done? Yeah. I mean, they haven't asked to be paid. They haven't asked their contractors to be paid. I've only gotten one back that is completely done. Um, and then all the other three, I think there was three that we approved, I've not gotten any invoices to pay for the vendors. I think it would be wise to find out whether the jobs were done or not. I mean, I don't think we want those things out there just dangling without closing the loop is my opinion. Yeah, I know. I just haven't had a lot of time. I just figured they'd come to me when they want the money.

Well, yeah, but meanwhile, we've got this kind of open requisition. That's I think should if you could find time, I think it'd be good to close the loop. Well, I'll do the best I can. I'm like slammed right now, Ian. I'm sure you will. Yeah, I'll do the best I can. Thanks. Thanks, Wendy. I wonder, do you think Ian, do you think Mary could call? Do you think Mary could follow up on these and just find out if the projects are done? Uh, who exactly would she be following up with? The the people that the people like the the Boxboro residents that want the work done.

Okay. Okay. And they it's a followup to say, "Is the project complete? Do you have an invoice that you'd like the town to pay?" Okay. I can I can put I can ask her about that tomorrow. Okay. We can talk tomorrow, too. Okay. Bossi. Yes. Why would she do it? Well, I think Wendy's saying it's going to be difficult for her because she doesn't have time. I know. Yeah. And

Mary, can she get paid from us to do it? She's another she has other um boards he answers to. Yes. And where the housing board is does get staff support from both both the community services um department and the planning department, it it could fall into her responsibilities. I c I certainly understand why why because Alec was supposed to be doing this and my name went out in all the letters so I've been doing [laughter] Yeah. So that's kind of how it fell. So it'd be great if somebody could do it. Yeah. No kidding. [laughter]

Okay. Well, you guys can figure out how to juggle things and get catch me tomorrow sometime. Wendy. Okay. She's in at noon. So [snorts] Okay. All right. Well, then moving on to BAP. Uh, uh, Wendy has prepared as three questions that she wants to try want some help with. Uh, and I've listed the questions and sent them out to you. They're in one of the things that's uh, downstream somewhere that Ian has. But, um, can we Ian, can you bring up the uh, Yep. Oh yeah, graph question.

Oh, thank you. Is that good size? Oh, thank you. I was trying to look for them. Yeah. So, why don't we just do the one one by one? [laughter] Uh I don't that just this probably self-explanatory and you want to see.

Yeah, this one's pretty much a done deal cuz I talked to Stephanie. So, um yeah, this it it's just a kind of it's a real big success story. this person hasn't even been in the program a year and she came to me saying, "I don't think I qualify anymore. I've got a really good job and I'd like somebody else to um be on the list." I was so thrilled. I just never had that happen before. Like usually we wait till the year, we do the re-qualification, and then we say, "Nope, you can't." So, I just wanted to make sure like, you know, I'm doing the proper thing. So, I calculated her pay. I sent it to Stephanie. She did a quick calculation and yep, she doesn't qualify anymore. So, now I'm just confirming with the client that um that she will pay May 1st. Um because I do have her check for May sitting in the treasur's office. Um so, I want to make sure that she know like she knows she's paying May 1st or if she said, "Oh, I'm ready to do it on June 1st," then I'll mail out the check. So,

so my I had some thoughts on this. My uh obviously anybody who wants to be removed from the program for whatever reason can be. I think it's going to be important though when they do that that you remind them if you are removed from the program and something happens and you need to get back on it, you're back in the wait list with everybody else. I can't I think I told her that. All right. Just making sure. But I'll make sure

we clarify that to them. Um, also my recommendation, um, when people, oh, I've got a great job. I can pay my whole rent. My recommendation is to give them like two maybe three months stable before cutting off just to make make sure everything's good. Um, usually

a great recommendation. That is a great recommendation. Usually with other assistance programs, um they'll like if I'm on SNAP, right, and I am unemployed and I'm getting SNAP because I'm unemployed and I get a job, they will want me to update my information, but they'll need six weeks of payub. So, there's going to still be at least like six weeks. Yeah, I think she's been on this job for a long So that's why I'm not

I'm not not doing anything until I talk to her because she I think she's had this job for a while. So I'm so I have the call into her. I I have the check sitting at the treasur's office and I'm going to hopefully have that discussion with her. So I'm not just shutting her off. I'm just I'm making sure. Yeah, that's that's what I wanted to make sure is like she didn't just get a new job and is like No, no, no. She's had this job. Bye. [laughter] To make sure people are actually trans like taking that transitioning and not just suddenly going. Well, that's why I'm asking her. Yep. Thank you. I am following

Wendy. Great work on that one. Ben, I think you've got a good policy recommendation and what you just hit on. There's no state policy that I'm aware of that's caught up to what you just said. Uh but just factually here, I think so we've determined this this is not the case where she just got a new job and she got a new salary and she's she's good. She's had the job. It sounds like Wendy says she's had the job for a while. Hopefully at least a year or or six months just with some income. So it's not like like six six weeks to 3 months ideally. Yeah. But after but after this is an this is a beautiful case. The person came

that's what I mean. Let's celebrate this because nobody ever comes to me and says take me off the pro. This is the first in five years. Should we send her a congratulations card? That's a [laughter] good idea. She has seriously she's very sweet and she literally said in her email, I want somebody else to be on the program. Like literally. So, and when she came to me last year, she was just like in dire straits. So, she she's a very nice person and I will definitely make whatever she needs. I will make sure she gets it. I've got some quick ideas [snorts]

real quick. I'm sorry. I just say one thing, one thing about these this item is that we should file it away in our minds because if if BRAP ever gets debated in town hall in town meeting again, which I doubt, but if it does, this would be a good example to have in our back pocket. Yeah. Yeah. Invite that person to come speak and talk about the impact that that like I did that I did that last year. I said, yeah, a lot of people did that for me last year.

Absolutely. Finn, can we develop a policy for our program that we control that Wendy operates for us and staffs for us? Could [snorts] we build in that that transition out no matter what and give it as an option? So for this person, if we had a like Wendy might have said, we can let you stay to X more months, three more months because of the because of be because the world can change. Yeah. Yeah.

So, but it's not you don't have to. It's optional. If you need it, it's there. You've got three month even though you're over income. Congratulations. you got your three months transition here if you need it. But I think with this person if we would have offered that she's it sounds like she's like very like she came to Wendy and she would have said maybe thank you but I don't need that and that would be fine too but let's work on that policy the transition because other people have I I have one person in my head that when we reertified her she did not qualify anymore and it's really kind of like a hard no like if you're

so let's but I think we can have a transition policy a humane. Yeah. Compar compared to state and federal public housing. Let's be more humane. The harder thing is not the people who are over the income. The harder transition is people that that are coming off the program because they've hit their three-year max. That's the harder part than the people over income. And I Okay, so let's let's pin that and solve that one later. the ones that are graduating that the ones that have met their term, let's let's chunk that out and solve for that next. Okay,

this is the this doesn't happen very often. So, okay, but I still think it's you know, maybe the economy is changing, maybe it will. And then number two, for both options, for those who are early exits and those who are graduating a term, then I can work with you if you're interested on this. We should make a we should make an exit package for them, a document that says I have that. I do. Okay, perfect. Never mind. It's already done. Yeah, Wendy's already on it. She got it.

I make the landlord sign it. I have a Well, Al did this. it it says you um you know you no longer qualify because there's check boxes you're over income, you've moved, you've you know you've hit your three-year max. So there's all that letter goes out to the landlord and then I also have one crafted for the um tenant. Yep. Okay. And I say like this is the last month that we've paid. You are responsible going forward starting this date. I mean, I can share them with you if you'd like.

Um, okay. That would be a good idea because we have done a lot of paperwork on this show. You'd be amazed how many different letters and all kinds of stuff. So, it might be good for you to take a look at them. This is a great success. Well done. Good for us all. Good for you, Wendy. Let's move on to item two. Yes. One other thing. Can we actually get a congratulations card? have it pass it around the housing board and sign it for her and send it to her. I think that'd be really nice. Or at least signed wed with Wendy's signature with much love from the housing board at the very But I think it's important to get I'll run it to CVS and get her a card tomorrow if you want, but let's let's do a card. Not everybody has to sign it.

That sounds like a good idea. I can't hurt. That's for sure. Okay, item two. Do you want to say anything about that, Wendy? So, so this is and I think I'm pretty sure I because I talked to Stephanie about this too, but I don't want Stephanie at Metro West like making our policies. So, so I I like to get her opinion and then and then bring her opinion and my opinion to all of you. So, um so I have a brother and a mother who have been in the program now for like a year, a year and a half. And the mother, which I've known the whole time, they both live in the same condo complex, but in two separate units. And the mother spends exactly 50% of the time with one brother and 50% of the time with another brother. The brother that she is already on an application with brother number one who in both of them she's social security. He's some kind of social security disability. So, they qualify. But all of a sudden, last week, and I was on the phone, so I couldn't meet him, which I was bummed about. But Kim D got an application for the other brother who I've, you know, I've never heard boo from, like, you know, I thought he had a job and blah blah blah blah blah. So, he puts his mother on the application and I was like, well, we can't do I'm thinking to myself, I didn't say to them. I'm like, we can't do that. We can't. And so I did this. This is complicated because they've also applied for fuel assistance. So I've had to go over this with Smok explaining that they live in both. And so like if they now apply with the other brother, they can't use it's complicated. So it's now it's

happening to me in the BRAP program and I just want to not include the mother's income in his application. That makes sense. Oh, I'm sorry. Who's the property owner? Who's who owns? They're you. They're rentals. They're all rentals. Why is Why is he Why is he submitting his application with his mother's info?

Because I don't know if he even Him and his brother don't seem like they get along. I don't They don't talk to each other. So maybe he had no idea. He had no idea that he had no idea that his brother's already on the program. Or maybe the mom said something because you know what? The mom called me today. I've not talked to this woman. She is I didn't even know she actually existed except for like her social security documents that I get from her other son. She called me today asking me about this. I I was blown away. I was like, I didn't even know you were a real person. And so she's like peppering me with questions and I said I I have to take to to the housing board. So um

how old is the son? Um I actually haven't I mean the mother is senior citizen. She's over 60. So I mean they're probably 30 40. Is the son is is the son the dependent of the mother? The son a dependent I don't know. Yeah. That's a question. The mother's info shouldn't be on this application. It should just be him because because But yeah, but they live together. So everybody over

Well, you know, I I I think that it would make sense to use half of the mother's income for each brother. I mean, he she only spends half of the uh time with each of them. So why

I think that's what they did for Smok. I think that's what they did. But I never knew he was going to apply. So I mean it doesn't matter. They're going to qualify anyway, but I just don't want to count her right now. They just reertified maybe a few months ago the brother number one and the mother. And I use, you know, the whole amount for the brother one because the brother two always had a job and Yeah. So with all with the mother's income and the both brother's income, they still qualify. Well, they would it would be actually two separate families. So they'd each be getting a rental assistance cuz they live in two separate units

and the mom is attached to both. Yeah. I don't know if she So So would the mom with the existing brother, the mom and that brother that you know about? Yes. They qualify, correct? Yeah. Does the mom and the new brother that you just that we're talking about, do they I'm assuming they're going to, but I haven't looked through the paperwork yet. I'm assuming I wouldn't assume until you look at his income. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure cuz right now he's unemployed. That's what the mom told me today. He's unemployed and now he's on unemployment. So, I I'd say it's smart to do it the way however Smok ended up doing it since he about the cases.

It makes sense to me that if she's spending half the time, she's half a resident. So, so why not use half of her? Okay. Uh for each I mean numerically at least that that seems like the fairest way to do it to me. Yep. 50% of his and 100% I mean 50% of hers and 100% of the new the new guys. Yes. Okay. For both which is assumed to be nothing but we'll find out. We should not we should not double count ever the income of the mother. That's why I brought this to your attention cuz I didn't want to either because I saw her thing on and I've already counted you.

So I've already apply so I think we don't double count if we apply half to each one of the units and uh that's the thing to avoid. I agree that's that's what we should not do ever. Okay. But they've already reertified with the whole mother's whole mother's income last September before I knew that this brother was ever going to apply. So, well, the the brother without the mother's income is I would think he's going to uh qualify as well too, right? They're they're going to qualify. I just want to make sure I'm doing Has the Has the mother's income situation changed since they were certified? Just certified.

Okay. So you so just I don't think you have to even reertifi I don't think you have to go back and reset that one. You just if if that was what they signed her income hasn't changed because it's fixed then you update the file. Say you're taking half of that out of that certified oneward putting it in half if this one certifies out going forward. Yeah. Like for this one, I'll do half and then next year when I reertify brother one, I'll only give him half credit. I mean, they're going to they're going to they're both going to make it, but I just That's right. That's right.

It's just complicate. This is weird and complicated. Imagine me talking to what? The mother gets 100% and each son gets 50%. Is that what we're talking? No. No. The mother's income is divided by two. So one brother gets 50% of her income and the other brother gets 50%. I mean yeah the mother spends half the time with each of the brothers. So therefore it makes she gives her income 50% to each. Yes.

So that's why I think it it seems fair to me to to count 50% of her income in both cases. Yeah. But I'm not going to go back to the brother one because I've already next year I will. Yeah, next year going forward. But there's no reason to reset it. But for this brothers 2 application I will only use half. That makes sense to me. Sounds good. So I'm still kind of double counting it a little bit, but it I think it's going to be a moot point. Yeah. All right.

All right. Can you roll? Okay. This one. Yeah. Roll this one up so I can read it. I mean, I have it here, but this one is very complicated to me. And like my Can you Can somebody move that screen up so we can see number three? Ian can I think Oh, he's doing something. Sorry. Yeah, I was getting water. That's okay. You can get water and you can go to the bathroom, but move that up for us. Just kidding, Ian. Oh my god. All right. So,

I have a single man that just came to me, brand new person, a couple weeks ago. He's moving from Conquered to Boxboro. Um, and he's self-employed and he was he's given me his he hasn't given me the full tax return, but when somebody's self-employed, we need the full tax return. He's only given me the two pages. So, I know I have to get more. But before I went to ask him this, you know, I got all his bank statements. He filled out the application in my office and and then I got his other bank statement and I was like, "Oh my god, he has $241,000 in his money market account, another $26,000 in his checking account, and another $4,000 in his savings account." And

do we not have a clear cap on assets? We don't. Or asset limits. Okay. We don't. Most most assistance programs do. Yes and no. Yes and no. Um um fuel assistance does not and neither does neither does SNAP. They don't they only count income. But I don't know ethically I just feel like this is crazy. Like ethically I just feel like this is this isn't correct.

Again there's there's nuance to the term assets. if if he was reporting he owned a a home that was worth 241K and then he owned uh a bus that was 26K and he owned something else, a food truck that was 43. That's a different story. This is cash. It's liquid asset. It's an asset, but it's liquid. It's a liquid asset. Yes, I get that. We have no cap in our guidelines. This doesn't smell right to me. Same.

And the other thing is, not to get like too technical, but I mean, you can I have my own business and you can you can write off lots of things to make it look, you know, but he's moving that 26,000 a couple a month ago was was 46,000. So he made enough money to take 20,000 and put it in his money market account. What? So he's self-employed? What uh what field? What industry? He's a musician and he does gigging. Does he on his the two pages of the incomplete tax return that he gave you? Um does he claim unemployment?

Uh I don't I don't know. I He only gave you The tax returns will tell you. Yeah, he's only given me two pages. Um, and then has he given a profit and loss statement from his gigging? No, I did I didn't want to go further if if I didn't want to go further until I talked to you guys. So, I kind of just got the documents, looked at the documents, and then have not contacted him. He has not contacted me.

Yeah. So, don't promise anything. just tell him that we're still looking into it, but we need you you need him to give you more information. And that is his uh full tax return. That's what I asked him before. And then he needs to give you a profit loss statement for his self-employment income. And then schedule C. Schedule C. That's right. And then you and then you take that and we review it and you bring it back to us at our next meeting. Okay. That's correct. Or or if he or if he responds, we don't have to have a meeting. You don't have to wait till a meeting. You can send us an email.

Okay. Yeah. Because um I asked Stephanie, this is one of the things I was talking to Stephanie about and she said, "I was not aware of any rent assistance programs that capped assets. Neither was Alyssa. That's her boss. There are some folks in the program who have higher assets, although maybe not 241,000. The town could change the eligibility guidelines if it wants to, although a cap could negatively affect potential applicants who are or will be willing will be spending their assets on life necessities. Um I think it comes down to liquid versus non-lquid assets if we want to and I think we have flexibility to our policy. I think we need to be very flexible with non-lquid ex

non-liquid assets and I think we need to do everything we can to bring to bring them in for this case. Um I agree with you. Um, but I think it's got this is liquid cash and um I mean it's not our job to tell him that he should use his cash for his housing. That's not our job. Okay. So then I mean if you have if you have over 20k in liquid assets, you can pay for rent for a year. Well, he has 241,000 that's also liquid that's also earning high interest. It's money market. So,

um, if he respond, I would say get his tax return and get his P&L schedule C. Um, review it, show us what you found, send us an email. Okay, that's the next step. Yeah,

I was curious, you know, of course, we were involved in in developing these guidelines, and I remember now, this is quite a while ago, 10 years ago, when we discussed it. We did discuss an asset limit and we found that it was a can of worms that you know there was all kinds of scenarios that you'd get into that were you know clearly whacked out. The money market account could be constrained in some way. I mean we for some reason we uh we decided not to do it which I forgot. Did Stephanie say why most programs don't have an asset limit?

Let me read this. Let me read her email again cuz I I think 10 years ago we had some reasons, but I can't remember them.

Um, she just said, "I was not aware of any rent assistance program that capped assets. Neither was Alyssa. There are some folks in the program who have higher assets. And then she wrote in parentheses, although maybe not 241,000. The town could change the eligibility guidelines if it wants to, although a cap could negatively affect potential applicants who are and will be willing to be spending assets on necessities. Now, I have another client who probably has like maybe three, four, $500,000, but it's in a retirement account and they're not retirement.

That's different. So, that's different. Yeah. [sighs and gasps] Like [clears throat] a retirement account, you can't take it out without having a penalty on it. Exactly. meant for your retirement so that we're not, you know, they don't have to be that they can actually take care of themselves when they do retire. You know, I

I remember us discussing it extensively and in the end there was a reason why we didn't do it. Wish I could remember it. I could look back at my notes, but maybe Stephanie, I think before we revise our guidelines, we got to find out why the other programs don't have asset limits because I think there may be some problems there, but I'm not sure what they are. I think that's due to the liquid versus non-liquid and it's easier to just say no assets than to divide it.

We no that we just don't have anything. We don't It's just like DTA and SNAP and and fuel assistance. They literally just look at income. So, but I don't know. I just didn't feel I just I haven't seen anybody in my Does his income did the income he presented you qualify? Well, I just The thing is I just got the I just got the um I didn't get the whole schedule C, but no, on his tax return he would qualify with the income. Okay. But he's got these these these liquid cash access

in his in his bank accounts. He's saving money too because I mean I don't know maybe that's not my job to judge another person but I mean I see the money he's saving is moving 20,000. I mean, if he's if he's a musician, like I can understand if maybe the money market stuff that is his retirement if he doesn't have access if he instead 401k or something like that. And that's what [clears throat] we would ask him next once he provides full once Wendy gets his full schedule C and his tax returns. Yeah, that might be that might be let's Yeah, let's ask that question, Finn. Okay. When Wendy reports back, but I suggest we probably move on from this item.

Okay. Thank you. That thank you because these are the things that I don't want to make the decision on. And you could also like we did with the other one that was like on the edge. This is like even if he does qualify, we might he might be dep prioritized in the in the weight list because there might be people that are more urgent on that weight list. Yeah. [sighs] Okay. Well, you you'll report to us uh after you find out more information.

Thank you. All right, let's move on to the next issue. The the in new business, I had a membership item. The only thing I wanted to mention is something probably everybody knows is that Channing wants to become a member. I thought he actually might be here. He could discuss why he wants to be a member, but I think he's interested in helping people and helping the housing situation. He's been on the board. So, um I think the the membership is appointed by um the housing the the select board.

I certainly support the whole thing and I just wanted to give anybody uh here an opportunity to say anything they feel about it. I think it's great. Myself, I'm still trying to figure out the rules. Do we have a full board right now? Uh I don't know what a full board is. We have our our requirement is to have over five. We have over five. I don't think there's an upper limit on the amount of people.

I mean I'd be hesitant to to add anybody at this point. Um, unless, and I've got reasons why, unless, um, unless um, we need a sub, unless somebody's leaving. Why is that?

Uh, because I think that affects scheduling, quorum. Um, I think it affects I think we've got a good uh, room for debate here. I think it I think time is of the essence in everything we do. Um, and I think we're doing well with the board meeting our at least five. Um, and all of our meetings are public. So, um, we should like if I'm glad to hear Channing I don't even know Channing, but I'm glad to hear there's people interested. But I think um I don't think we need a substitute situation right now and we're meeting the requirements. So all of our meetings are public. So why don't we build in um to our two-hour meeting agenda a public you know it's not public hearings we're doing but they are public meetings. So, why don't we build in a comment period? Um, and if like if there's other Channings in Boxboro, they should attend our meetings.

Channing has quite a lot to contribute. You know, he's been the chair of this the housing board from time to time and he's actually probably been in the on the housing board longer than I have. He's just not on it now. Yeah. Uh so I I don't think he'd be a pro problem. I don't think he'd have any startup. I think he understands the issues and he wants to help. So I have difficulty.

Do we have a cap on the number of people who I'm trying to read if minimum? I believe committees and I believe I believe I believe you can set caps, but that I don't think we'd want to. We just we don't I'm just seeing if we have I'm trying to read the bylaws. Yeah, I don't think we want to set caps anyway. I mean, I know like in the well-being we have five members and then we have somebody that consistently comes and we just call her like a friend of well-being and she contributes. You know, she can't vote but she contributes. I don't know that. I'm just saying that's

I think Channing has every right to come back. He's coming back cuz he has ideas on road and um have him come to our meeting on the 26th if we make that meeting. That wouldn't change quorum. I don't know either. It won't change. Yeah, we'd still have to it'd still be the same quorum of four. Um and I you know he's got lots of experience on the housing board too. I want to I I think it'd be good to learn from that experience as well.

And maybe we should have an agenda item at our next regular meeting, not our next working group meetings, but can Al, can you do an agenda item um so we can vote on whether we want to bring any new member on at this time? It doesn't matter who it is, but let's just have a vote to bring on a new member. Isn't that the call of the uh select board? It's a strike board that appoints Yeah. appoints them. Yeah. Why is the select board appointing somebody right now to a full board to a board? Cuz Shannon has asked the select board to do it.

He's talked to he talked to me about it and I now bring it up so we could talk about it.

Okay. Well, I just think we're coming to the this is a bigger this is a big item and I think we're coming to the end of our meeting and I think we should potentially have a vote at our next regular meeting to um to accept a new member. It doesn't matter who it is or who who who they're being appointed from. I don't know what to say because it's a public group so we have every right to have a vote but um you don't know who he is.

It doesn't matter who he is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what's his name. Channing. It doesn't It doesn't matter who it is. What I mean is I Um, it sounds like it sounds like if we were to take a vote right now, it'd be you know, you have some misgivings about it, you might be opposed and then it would be three in favor. So, I don't if the group wants if the group feels like we need another member,

but again, these are public meetings. We can take public input, but if the group feels strongly like we need another human body, right now. It might be, honestly, it might be a good idea. Like, if things are going to pick up like you you say they're they're going to, having another person with a lot of experience on the housing board is only going to be helpful. Okay. Can we put that on a regular agenda next time? because I

Well, I uh I would like to make a motion that we accept uh cons we are open to accepting a new member uh to the housing board subject of course to the select board's approval. Okay. It just it scares me if people can be appointed because if we accept Can I ask Ian a question? You were saying he could get appointed the day before our next meeting. Has there been a discussion in town hall about this?

Uh, no. Channing um reached out I believe to town administration and I was forwarded a message I believe and I am not sure if they provided him with the paperwork that he needs to fill out. So, I will it depending on where the board stands on this. Sounds like there was a motion. Um I I could be reaching out to him um or poking the people who do supply those papers if they haven't already been provided. There wasn't a second to my motion. Does anybody want I'd second? But that means we have to

today we can't vote today with only We have We have a forum. That's why I'm here. I've got to go in three minutes. So, we can we can vote on it. Yeah. I mean, it's it's on the agenda. If you're looking for it to be on the agenda, it's on agenda. Let's vote now for ready for I want to have a little bit more discussion first before the vote if that's okay. That would be good. And that is

that is I guess as the board um were we asking for are we asking for new members? And number two um do we not have the power as our board or do is the select board? Obviously select board is the elected chief elected body. Um I guess do we have to ex [snorts] does the select board really want to appoint and is this important to them and do we do we need to always have to be open every that we're going to have to be accepting new members? Those are my questions.

Well, my answer is that's not that's not that's not how that's I've been a part of other boards and I I haven't had to this is a this is a new one to me. It's not to me. I mean, we have a person here that knows out what we do could help us and the many activities we're involved in and I think we should be open to that. It's up really up to the select board, but I think we should I think this is a good thing for us to have a new member. Can we wait till we see the appointment paperwork from the select board and then and then make a and then and then do a vote? I don't I would think that would be impractical. I think we should vote now.

It's not official. He hasn't been appointed. It's not official. Is it she or he? It's a he and I said we my motion said we'd be open to the addition of a new member. Did say anything about appointing. That was my motion. Okay. Okay. Is the board open to having any new members joining? I think it'll get unwieldy. I think five is five is really good. I think adding to it it's going to get unwieldy. But again, I'm going to restress all of our all of our meetings are publicly posted. So people can attend and we can build in public input. Well, you you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

We've had years where we've been looking for members. Yeah. Okay. But are we at that but we're at but we're but we're at we're at we've met now we have the members or or are we still short historically? Was the housing board much bigger and this is a small version? No. Okay, I think we should vote myself. Okay, I'm sorry. I've got to jump on a work call. It's a and it's I'm going to be late at 901. Let's vote. I vote I I I I'll support you. I

You'll support it. Okay. So, we're okay. But I think we should have a bigger policy around that. Yeah. Yeah, that might be something to explore at another meeting. Yeah, that's what I was trying to discuss. Yeah, thanks for joining, Joe. I won't keep you any longer. It seems like all we have left is May 12th. Um, and with that, we no longer have quum, but

with nothing else on the agenda, is there anything else you'd like to go over, Al? I just want to remind people there's a there's an effort to try to simplify the bo box website. I rooted through it and it's okay to me, but you know the people that are doing it and unfortunately they blind copy these messages to me. It's it's bad practice in my opinion because I have no idea who else has got it received the notice that they're updating the website, but they are. And if any of us have opinions on something they could do to uptake the website, we should pass him on. I'll be glad to forward the email to you if you haven't got it, which you may have cuz I really don't know. That's all I wanted to say. And the next meeting of the well and okay very well. And it says when the next meeting is and I am open to a motion to adjourn.

We can't adjourn. We don't have We're stuck here for So we're stuck here for That's enough. Yeah. Okay. Well, I What are we doing here? Are we going to spend the rest of May? Are we here on May 12th? [laughter]