Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. I'd like to call the planning commission to order this evening. This is Thursday, the December the 4th at 6 PM. First order of business are the approval of minutes. Are there any corrections people would like to note? There's too many corporation as a CP, not a CC. So just right. Anything else?

I had one on page seven as well. In the second paragraph, second to the last sentence, it says he wondered if a town ordinance could be create. I believe that is supposed to be could be created. It says not be created.

I I just have two things. Uh, you know, after having spent years and years in the media, media relations, I know how difficult it is to transcribe things from a tape. But, um, on page three, one, two, three, four, five, six down, blah, blah, blah. Belair Town Center, which requires medication. Is mediation. Is it mediation? Is that what it's supposed to say? mediation instead of medication. Yeah.

And then uh there's one more here. Page six. Uh Mr. Coats move that they approve the special development of outdoor dining area based on the following finding I think of facts. Okay. Anyone else? Um, I noticed on page eight, pretty much right in the middle, I think it should be Ms. Thompson, not Mister.

Okay, good. Any other changes? What one other change, Madam Chair? On the page seven, on the bottom of the page, last sentence, the first word in the last line is board. I I don't want it to be any mean it to be confusing. The board we usually refer to as the town of board commissioners really meant to say this commission not the board. So it would have to come back before you not the town board. So I just want to clarify that. So it should be planning commission. It should be planning commission not board

that is a difficult job. Okay. Do I have a motion then? Spell check causes a certain amount of problems. You know, I expect move that the uh minutes of the uh September 4th meeting be approved as amended. Second. All those in favor? I. All right. You abain. Welcome. Oh, I have to abstain. That's right. I was not. Sorry. Uh Wakar, would you please uh present the first item. Sure.

Good evening, planning commission members. My name is

Good evening, planning commission members. My name is Wakar Sha and I'm the deputy director of planning and community development and I'm excited to present the site plan and landscape plan approval as well as the special development approval for Autospa Express car wash located at 710 Baltimore Pike. The project involves demolishing an existing commercial building to construct a new 4,470 square foot single tunnel auto spa express car wash at 710 Baltimore Pike. Um, however, ESTA actually has the address as 716 Baltimore Pike. The new building will result in a maximum height of 28 ft and is set outside all required setbacks. Additionally, the proposed development includes an associated site develop site improvements such as pay lanes, parking spaces, vacuum stations, and landscape areas as part of a landscape plan and special development approval for this project. The development site is located in the B3 general business zoning district southeast of the Baltimore Baltimore Pike and Tolgate Road intersection. The area is characterized by a commercial development pattern comprised of one to threetory commercial business facilities and the lot is currently developed with a 16,256qt commercial building formally formally occupied by the heritage Mazda car dealership and has been seasonally occupied by the costume cabaret store. The proposed principal building is positioned towards the western rear of the site, maintains all required setbacks from Bair Road and lot lines as discussed earlier. Most of the vehicle queuing for the car wash is proposed behind the building towards the

northeast portion of the site, effectively screened from public view and minimized in minimizing visual and traffic impacts along the corridor. The site plan shows that adequate queuing of 11 vehicles will be provided as well as on-site circulation and parking. 19 parking spaces are dedicated for the vacuuming of vehicles and four spaces are for are for employees as presumed on the plans. At this time after review of the site plan, it is recommended that this applicant address the following. One, please clarify that the proposed saw cut call out is to be used as a vehicle vehicular access between 708 Baltimore Pike and 7 what which would what will now be 710 Baltimore Pike. Clarify the purpose of the four unlabeled 9 ft by 18 ft parking spaces and provide a call out that no more than four employees will be on site per shift. Three, confirm whether directional or business identification signs are proposed. If so, show locations that ensure directional signs do not exceed 5 square ft per ton of Beller code. Four, confirm the location of all mechanical equipment either on the rooftop or on site and ensure adequate screening is provided as specified per Town of Bellor code section 165-32C5. Explain the need for a sorry the six. Explain the need for the 30foot drive aisle between the general parking and the vacuum parking spaces when only 24 ft is required as excessive impervious area is discouraged. Seven, specify the square footage breakdown between the first floor and mezzanine floor of the 4,470

ft auto express building on the site plan or in the bulk table. Eight, the proposed handicap space within a vacuum space should should be revised to be shown as an individual handicap space. And lastly, 10 lastly uh specified on the TIA review comments from state highway administration dated June 17, 2025. Installation of sidewalks along the along the road along Baltimore Pike um along the Baltimore Pike frontage is recommended as part of the roadway improvements. Now on to the landscape plan review. After review of the landscape plan, it is recommended that the applicant address the following. Replace the 72 cherry BL brandy English laurels with shikpa or lyken cherry laurel or a mix of the two to improve the site. Provide a pedestrian access for an example a door to the trash enclosure and confirm that the materials and colors of the trash enclosure will be consistent with the proposed building. It is to note that the site has 250 ft of frontage along Baltimore Pike or Route 1 per Town of Beller code section 16558A. This requires one major deciduous tree per 40 ft for 40 feet planting interval of street frontage or one minor deciduous tree per 30 feet planting interval interval along street frontage. Therefore, the project must provide six major or or eight minor deciduous trees along Baltimore Pike. In addition, these trees shall be planted to not interfere with overhead or buried lines and as such eight minor deciduous trees could be considered.

onto the lighting plan. A light a phototric lighting plan was provided and illumination levels range from zero to five foot candles across the property. Staff recommendations are as follows. One, please identify the locations of parking lot one and parking lot two on the lighting plan's aerial plan so they correspond with the values listed in the calculation summary. And two, please identify the pole height of the proposed lighting fixtures on the plan. onto the architectural. The architectural elevations were reviewed by staff in the town architectural consultant and comments are attached to your application package. It is recommended that the applicant address the following. One, the current use of stone veneer and metal panels does not appear to meet town of Beller code section 16532 C4A or align with the surrounding architecture. Please increase the use of stone veneer or brick on the exterior facads to comply with this requirement. two, confirm whether low E glass shown in SFO1, SFO2, and SFO3 is not reflective to comply with the Town of Bellor code section 16532C4F. Uh, number three is more of a housekeeping item, but please rename sheet A1.1 from floor plan to first floor plan. And four, revise the uneven spacey um designed roof awning shown on the west and east elevation and consider a flat uniform design for architectural consistency across the building. Overall, after review of Town of Beller code section 16532C4A

um D and E, it shows that architectural compatibility specifically in building materials, color, texture and finish and roof form is required to ensure that new development complement the character of nearby buildings.

On that point, pardon me for interrupting. We seem to be are we in conflict with the architectural consultant? I'm I'm noting where this uh staff says the the application is incompatible with the quality, color, texture, finish, etc., etc. And when I get over to Mr. Edme's, uh based on my analysis, uh the proposed redevelopment of the meets the requirements of the development reg. in disagreement there or Yeah, Kevin Small, director of planning. Um, you are at uh the staff is at odds with the architectural consultant.

So, and the planning commission has its own latitude to you have your latitude to either ignore the staff, ignore the architectural consultant or do both. I was I was going to somewhat elaborate on that. So, at this age, we got to get these things out while we think of them because Oh, no, no, no, no, no. of all this then we'd forget completely.

So I was when I was reviewing this I was in the understanding that it is in the south southwestern side of town on the edge of on the um Baltimore Pike edge right when you enter into Harford County. So while the Georgian architectural style of like you know the central downtown part of Bair is very consistent throughout um and the fact that the architectural style for this particular building would not you know necessarily match that most of the architectural style on that side of town anyways is very varied. So it's not a huge consideration but it was something that I it caught my eye. It's giving a great deal of credit to even say that it has architectural consideration down that way at all. Yeah,

we we're not going to be compatible with the Waw Wa. Well, I just want I I wanted some beauty to come in. I I wanted a a beautiful design or it is very beautiful, but I wanted something that was more uniform and consistent with what we have uptown.

More or less. Yeah. Okay. More stone, more brick. Thank you. Who's next? All right.

Um, thank you for helping me elaborate that point because I was going to finish off my narrative, but I I will go to now I will go to the performance standards. So, the performance standards requirements relative to drive-through facilities for car wash uses are as follows. Drive-through lanes are clearly marked without obstructing parking areas, surface zones, or emergency access. Two, the site meets stacking requirements by providing a minimum of nine stacking spaces. And three, it must be noted that noise generated by the speaker systems must comply with state of Maryland noise regulations. Onto the motor vehicles and related service uses standards, performance standards. Um the performance standards requirements relative to motor vehicles, car wash, auto detailing uses are as follows. One, all car wash and cleaning will take place within the proposed building and no outdoor storage or display areas are included. Two, the proposed building is placed as such to minimize lighting, noise, and odor impacts onto neighboring properties. No screening, fencing, or walls are required as all adjoining uses are non-residential. Sorry, I messed up there. Number two, the proposed building is placed as such to minimize lighting, noise and odor impacts on neighboring commercial properties. Three, no screening, fencing, or walls are required as all joining uses are non-residential. And four, the building design also meets the required 30% window area. All in all, the project appears to fit the intent of the performance standards and fits within the site in the surrounding area. To conclude, at a minimum, the approval of the site plan and landscape plan in addition to the special development should be conditioned on the recommendations outlined in your

application. This concludes staff's discussion of the project.

All right. Um, is there someone who would come up? Please state your name and address before you begin. Absolutely. Is this on? Can you hear?

No. Yep. Now it's on. Can you hear that better? Thank you. Uh good evening and happy holidays. My name is Brandon Ralph with Bowler Engineering. Um also here with Chad Bon um who is uh going to represent the operator Autop Express. If I'm getting too far away from this, please let me know. Just need the address for the record. Sure. Yeah. Address um is 901 Delaney Valley Road in Talzin.

Great. Thank you. Um appreciate the uh the introduction and the overview um from from Wakar um and and staff's detailed staff report um and notes. Uh I'll provide a quick overview and probably re reinforcing some of the um items that Wakar stated um and then then touch on some of the um uh the recommendations and questions that were posed in the staff report. just to provide clarity. Um please interrupt me with questions at any time. I'm happy to talk talk through them. Um so as as staff has indicated um we are proposing to um raise the existing 16,000 square foot building on the property. Um there are currently two existing vehicular access points. uh one full movement um along Baltimore Pike and then one interconnectiv connection uh between the subject property and the properties to the northnortheast um at 708 um Baltimore Pike. Um there is no forest, there is no environmental features, uh no buffers on the subject property. Uh we are proposing the uh single uh tunnel drive-thru uh drive-through car wash. Um it is permitted as a special development uh in the B3 zoning district. Uh the one existing access the full movement access along Baltimore Pike will remain as it is today. Uh but we will be removing the interconnection between the 710 subject property and the 708 property. Um the there is a comment that acknowledges that a an ease or excuse me an easement will be required to allow for improvements to remove that and that is understood.

Can I interrupt you for a second? You're talking about an interconnection between 708 and uh 710 subject. Yes. You also share uh a connection to 716. So 716 has parking spaces all along it for the car dealership. Um we will be we will not be connecting to that. There is no I mean it's it's one sea of asphalt right now. I do agree with that. Um there is no technical access through there because there is striped parking. We will not be connecting there. We will be breaking that up and providing a landscape strip there. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Um sorry for any uh uh clarity there.

Um so from a um circulation standpoint, just an operation standpoint, uh vehicles will enter off of Baltimore Pike, circulate around to the pay lanes. Um there are three pay lanes. Uh the uh code requires a minimum of seven queuing spaces. Uh we're providing in excess of 21 queuing spaces. Um once once the vehicles and customers pay um they uh single file into the single tunnel um progress through the car wash and then they may exit um on the the east side of the building. Um from there they can either choose to leave and exit back out on Baltimore Pike or there are vacuum spaces and we are proposing to provide 19 vacuum spaces to allow for customers to clean out the interior of their car following the um following the uh exterior car wash. Um, one staff uh question or or recommendation was um that the question why the 30 foot wide drive aisle is needed um when only 24 is the minimum required. Uh from operating several of these including the one at Churchville um just down the road. Uh operators found that the 30 foot width provides for better operating. Um, we're talking about uh some larger trucks, longer trucks, whether it be the Suburbans, the SUVs, um, or or pickup trucks to come in here. And we find that the 30 24T is tight. Um, 30 feet allows vehicles to come in and pull fully perpendicular. So, you're not coming in at a diagonal, potentially um, opening doors into adjacent prop uh, vehicles. Um, really allows for better operations with with the with the movement in and out of those vacuum spaces. Um so with that that is one item that we would would request consideration to allow us to maintain the 30 foot wide drive aisle. Um from a parking standpoint we uh code requires the uh number of parking spaces for the maximum employees on any shift.

Uh that maximum is four employees. We are providing four uh standard spaces so that aren't occupied by by a vacuum. Um and and that is the purpose of those. I believe that was one item that wanted was requested clarity from staff as well. Um there was a a note about the ADA um parking space and providing removing the vacuum from that that ADA space. Um so in our from an operation standpoint, the ADA space um can be used by employees should an ADA uh employee need an ADA accommodation. Um this the ADA space is for customers more mostly. um and to allow for an AD someone with an ADA um need to use that space from a vacuum standpoint as well. Um that is why the ADA space is on uh it's designated also has allows for a vacuum. Um the vacuum does not preclude anybody else from using that space from an ADA standpoint if they're if they're an employee or someone who's coming in to talk to somebody interior to the building and not necessarily use the vacuum. Um, finally, the uh dumpster. Um, there is a dumpster proposed on uh the north southwest corner of the property uh that will have a masonry enclosure that that it matches a similar um aesthetic to the building. Uh from a uh storm water standpoint, um this site is reducing impervious area from today. Um there will be a proposed uh contact storm filter which proprietary filtering device to provide water quality treatment and that storm water concept has has has been approved. Uh landscaping will be provided to meet town code. There were a few um comments from from staff uh related to landscaping uh and we plan to fully comply with those uh with those comments.

Um the uh matter of uh architecture and building elevations staff provided a few thoughts. Um Mr. Rob, you you provided um some some questions related to that. Um and I know Chad's here and can speak to this. Um but but generally speaking, the proposed uh elevations and the aesthetics and the look of the building. Um we you may notice a difference if you're familiar with the Churchville um location. There's a lot of blue on that. Um this Churchville I'm trying to picture it. Oh, okay. Yes. Gotcha. Yeah, I was picturing in Churchville rather than we would call that fountain green.

Sorry.

So, a lot of blue. Um, we've uh have used a lot more earth tone here and and um as well as the gray paneling and the uh the the the um stone veneer along the base really to tie into some of the surrounding areas that I think some some of you were touching on as you were talking there at the south southwest uh western um corridor and entry into the into the town. Um the Wawwa across the street has a similar um stone veneer along the base. The storage self store the new self storage as well as the the car dealership next door has some of that pulls from the gray. So that's really where the architect was pulling from from their inspiration on on using the coloring scheme um and and the like. Uh there's also a comment um about the arched uh the west and east facades um and the arched um top of that. Um this is and and if there's questions on this chat I can speak further to this but the um the arch is a this is a kit that's purchased from um Tommy car wash and this building and and and the the manufacturer um comes as this uh more of a the arch um facade. Uh it really helps identify the entrance and the exit to the tunnel. Um and with that we would ask that commission would consider allowing us to to to maintain that that arched um on the both ends of those facades. Um other than that I I believe those are the all the items I wanted to touch on agree with um and certainly will comply and provide the additional information that that staff has requested um throughout the the the report. um other than the 30-foot drive aisle width, the ADA um designation on a vacuum space um and then the two architectural components related to the increasing the the stone veneer um as well as the the arched um east and west facade. Um those

would be the only I guess four things that we would um let the commission to consider um as they are. Quick question. Sure. You said you have a stacking of 21 cars. What's the average time to run through? Sure. Brandon's done. Need your name and address. Sorry. Chad Bond. Uh WLR Automotive Group.

Bond. Um, address is 1313 Orchard Way, Frederick, Maryland 21703. So, uh, the average time, uh, once you approach the point of sale canopy from the time the transactions tender to you exit the tunnel, the average time is about 3 minutes. There was a question about the flat roofing that would be consistent. Did you have any thoughts on that?

So, I think that's what I was trying to elaborate on on the east and west facades which is the tunnel entrance and the tunnel exit. There is an arched um arched awning. Um that is the the the building the way um it is manufactured. It's how interior the interior components um are impacted by that that facade. It also allows again draws customers to the the location of the in ins and outs.

So so when you say manufactured it's basically it's basically a prefabed system that you're purchasing and putting on the site much like you know a prefabed uh house or something like that that's already built someplace else and you're putting it down. More or less. Yes, sir. Yes, it's steel and glass. Um, but yes, it comes as Brandon was saying as a kit basically. Yes, sir. It won't roll in on a truck though. No, I understand. But it'll come in pieces. There there's a discussion or about a mezzanine. What's going to go on in the mezzanine? Mezzanine. The mezzanine inside the car wash. Uh,

sure. So, u the the one tower has a mezzanine floor that houses car wash equipment. It's just one mezzanine just going to house equipment. Yes, sir. Are there any offices or anything? There is an office on the second floor of the one tower. Correct. Okay. Um how about the hours of operation? hours of operation uh for this site would more than likely be 8:00 am to 8:00 p.m. Monday through Monday through Saturday, Sunday 9 to 6:00 p.m.

Um I had a few questions. Um one, I heard you already say you're going to filter the water, which I know most car washes do. Um have you gotten any responses back from DPW? I I haven't seen any of the responses myself, but have they done a study on that little pump station there to see if it can handle the capacity? Great question. Yes. So, we've had an initial conversation with DPW and we've done done our own preliminary analysis. We will need to upgrade the sanitary lift station. I believe that's what you're speaking to. It's one property over um just on the east side of that 708 property. Um we will have to increase the capacity of that and that we have based on the initial analysis have confirmed we can do that at that location.

They got the room to do that there. Yeah. So we we Yes. Okay. And the other question was uh speaking of capacity and the chemicals um I guess you're going to store chemicals on site for washing and things of that nature, the wax and things of that.

Yes. So, the car wash chemicals, unlike uh your typical car wash where chemicals are stored in a back room, uh our our chemicals are stored right out in the tunnel. Um for any for anyone that's been to our other site um up by the Royal Farms, you may have seen there's a a stainless steel, we call it pod system, uh in the tunnel itself on the driver's side, and that houses all the car wash chemicals. So, if there's ever a leak, all that uh that whole entire slopes towards the trench of that's where I was going. Containment. Yeah. And then that'll go into the reclaimed tanks and then eventually into the public system.

Another question. You may have uh mentioned this about the glass but uh uh the architect review suggests that if verify that the glass is not reflecting or mirrored. That is correct. is clear and non-reflective. Okay. And and it's not tinted. Is it tinted? No, it is clear. Oh, it's all clear. Okay.

Madam Chair, I had a couple issues with this. If you indulge, please. Um Brandon, there's a couple issues that I had with the site plan. Mhm. Um so first of all on the site plan you guys were showing a a location a location of work adjoining to the really encroaching upon the Bair Auto Properties LLC property. What exactly are you doing over there and do you have permission of the adjoining property owner? Sure. So to confirm you're talking about on the west side correct the 716 property. Yes. Yes. So that property is owned by the same entity that owns our subject property. Okay.

Um and we have been obviously in discussions with them, they are aware of the improvements or the impact to their their property. Okay. And then um where on the adjoining uh on the common line there, what are you putting there? You said that you're closing off the access point where the parking lot parking spaces are. Yeah. What are you putting there? Because I don't I don't see anything on the site plan. Yeah. So, in essence, we'd be saw cutting and ending the pavement on the west side. So, on the car dealership side. Okay.

Then we would have a land landscape strip and landscape area between the edge of that the new edge of that that pavement on the car dealership. Okay. And then our improvements whether it be the dumpster or the tunnel loop entrance. Um that will all then be landscapes. Okay. And then on the opposite property line where you said you're closing off the access point. Yeah. Are you aware of any existing joint access easement between the two properties? So we've conducted an uh an alta survey with title title search. Um we are not aware of any um cross access easement. Okay. I will say there is a a utility easement along the front edge that will allow us to connect from our property to the pump station um that was referenced earlier.

Okay. And then the easement on the front of the Gats property next door where the location of disturbance is for the sewer line work. So is it your intentions to obtain a permanent sewer ease access easement or is it just for constructing something? That would just be for the installation of the utility easement. That's an existing easement that we will continue to use for the for the purpose of connecting to the the sanitary to the lift station. Okay. But the location of disturbance is wider than the actual easement shown on the site plan. Um, no, no, there is a there's a private utility easement there as well that allows us to use it. Okay. Because I'm going to need that. Okay.

Um, and that needs to be provided to DBW. And then so you're accessing to upgrade our work, correct? Our sewer components, correct? Correct. Okay. Um, and you've been in contact with DPW and you're prepared to provide any documentation concerning those. Those are going to be our fixtures. We're good with that, right? Absolutely. No, we have to Yes. Okay. So, any documentation that legal might need has to go to the planning department and come through my office and be approved before you guys can get a building permit. Absolutely. Is that okay? Okay. Thank you. Sure. Thank you.

I just had two more items I wanted to ask. Um, traffic's always my big concern in Bair. Um, that's going to be a bad area turning in and out of there. Um, I didn't I didn't notice on I know there's a rear exit there. I don't know if that's part of your property. Um, I didn't look at that part. I should have looked at that closer, but it that rear exit is not part of your property. No, that's on the 78 708 property. That's what I was But okay. But I Okay. Yeah. Traffic's going to be hell there in and out. How wide's the median out front? Is that like five, six feet?

I'm sorry. How wide is the median strip out front? So, where they want to put the sidewalks. I guess they want to put sidewalk out. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um and then the median or I say median is the wrong terminology. The the front footage in the grass area in front. I can't remember how that is. From the back of our parking spaces, there's um on site, there's going to be an 8 foot concrete area around the vacuum, allow people to to walk around the vacuums. From the back of that down to our our rightway line, and the curb line's just a little bit further out into the into the rightway. Um it's 20 feet. So, call it 22 23 feet.

You got to put a five foot sidewalk in. So, you got 50. My my point is they want trees. I get that. Yeah. But at some point trees overhang roads. So whatever you're putting in needs to be cognizant of the fact that you know trucks 136 you know high tractor trailers need to traverse that without trimming them every day. So absolutely and that's not going to happen initially but 20 years down the road. So whatever we put in we need to I think we need to make sure that it's not encroaching on the road at some future date.

Yeah. Yeah, we looked at um one of the comments was to provide the six uh larger trees or the I think eight more ornamental size. We were able to fit the six six larger deciduous trees in um even considering the uh future sorry for the sidewalk.

I also wanted to add that there should be a consideration that there's a current overhead line along Baltimore Pike. So the tree should accommodate that. Yeah. And we'll use uh species that are uh BG has has allowed us to use in proximity to their lines in the past. Good point. Will there be any detailing on the property of vehicles? No, just strictly car wash and vacuums. Yes, sir. Okay.

Any other questions? Um, I just have one comment. I I use the one by Royal Farms and it's much more compact, but it always functions very smoothly and and it's very it's a really nice uh car wash. I should be in town using it, but I'm not. I go out of town to use it. Thank you. Appreciate it. The planning commission needs to consider the width of the drive aisle. Which one? They went 30 feet. town bags are 24. Any comments on that? Whether they're 24 or 30? I kind of agreed with his explanation why you need a 30 ft. Yeah.

I mean, right now the whole the whole parking lot's paved right now. So, I don't see any difference in the future. It's going to be paved again. So, that's just my opinion. Any other thoughts?

I mean, I I happen to agree. I think more is better when you're dealing with people backing up vehicles. So, and again, I also concur. It's already paid. You're not you're not um I mean if anything um it appears that you're putting more um landscaping behind the parking and the stacking area that doesn't exist now because I'm assuming the building that's there now goes pretty much to the lot line. So you're at least, you know, have cut back on the asphalt that's there. It you're running a a swale on this side. So all basically everything around here is grass. Correct. So I I I have no problem with 30 feet. I think

I can tell you that you know your your your place up there on 22 could use a lot more space. Yes. Absolutely. I I would agree with even though it's we require I mean it'd be a different story if you wanted 18 and we required 24. You need to give us 24. I think you're giving us six feet more and I think based on the way some people drive you probably. Unfortunately, you're and you mentioned the dumpsters that will be beside the other property and I'm assuming that will be enclosed right here on three sides. Yeah, three sides. It'll be enclosed. The masonry enclosure similar to the building and the front gates.

Good. So you do I'll call a man door on the side. Okay. Thank you.

Or person door just person. So, is there a a dispute between what um Paul Edme's planning has presented designwise versus what this is being presented as?

Yeah, you you would need to decide uh how they're to proceed with architecture. Um Paul Edme did not have a problem with what they have provided. staff has indicated that you know there might be some additional stone whatever um you would have to be the decision maker here and my recommendation with all respect uh to the staff would be that we uh concur with Mr. Edme's uh standard I think on a couple of fronts. His his standards are usually pretty tough and if uh if uh if they are met then that's usually good enough for me. And the whole concept of this building blending in uh with structures uptown or Main Street or the courthouse area, that's just not where we are. We're down there across from the Waw Wa and it sounds like we've considered that the neighborhood that they're in. So I would I would uh go with their elevations would be my thought.

You have a a comment any thought on that

from I mean from a from a structure standpoint when you're buying a kit, you're putting it together. There's going to be very little uh leeway as to what you can do. I mean if you wanted to block something up, I'm sure that you know you can add certain brick facade or or stone facade to it. Um, I mean, it's a commercial, it's a commercial building and a commercial site. I, you know, if there was more, I mean, it's next to a car dealership. Um, you know, if it was if there was a different setting there, I don't know that. Maybe I could I could feel that a little bit more. But based on what you're you're showing, you know, if you can if you can find some place to put four stone facade. That would be nice, but at the same token, um I'm cool with it as well. So,

Jimmy, do you have any thoughts? Uh, you know, looking at the drawing, you know, I agreed with it could be a little lighter, but where it's at and the surrounding building is near there, I think this fits in pretty well, myself. Pete, yeah. No, I agree. I I uh always appreciate Paul's comments and the work that he puts into it and so I agree. Sorry, Kevin. All right. I think Kevin will probably still sleep well tonight. Okay.

So, it seems to be no that there is no disagreement with that. All right. Um, so here we go. I first uh everybody got their questions answered. We're all good. I first move that the uh planning commission acknowledges that the submission meets the provisions of the 2022 comprehensive plan as required by town of Bair code 16519. Second. All those in favor? I I

I. Now, regarding the site plan, at a minimum, approval of the preliminary site plan is condition on the following. Prior to building permit application, submission of a final site plan for signature incorporating comments from the staff report and comments from uh A, Harford County Planning and Zoning comments are pending. B Maryland State Highway Administration comments of October 22nd. See, Harford County Health Department uh comments dated November 24th. Harford County Soil Conservation District comments also November 24th. Uh e Maryland American Water Company comments pending. Hopefully I have plenty of water down there. Uh Department of Public Works comments dated November 17th and indeed the uh town architectural consultant comments dated November 24th. Number two, provide an easement or agreement for construction disturbance from the 708 Baltimore Pike property owners and the property owners of 716 Baltimore Pike. Three, show proposed directional and business signage on the site plan. Directional signs great less than or equal to 5 square feet. Number four, confirm mechanical equipment locations indicate rooftop placement if applicable. Number five, reduce the 30foot drive aisle between general and vacuum parking to 24 feet.

I think that would be We're not going to do that one. We're not going to do that one. We got rid of that one. Scratch that. Number six, specify floor area breakdown between first floor and mezzanine, 4,470 square feet total. And number seven, nope. No, no revision of the architectural elevation. So we're scratching now. Second. All those in favor? I I

Madam Chair for the uh landscape and for the landscape and lightning fan make following motion. Um, one add six uh major street deciduous trees or eight minor deciduous trees adjacent to the public rightway along the eastern frontage of Baltimore Pike to meet section 165-58A. replace the two or replace the proposed 72 cherry brandy English Laurel shrubs with

or Lucan cherry laurel for a mix of these species on Shell L-201 identify the parking lot and parking lot two on the aerial lighting plan to match the calculation summary values. Second. All those in favor? I I

Madame Chair, I'll move for approval of the drive-thru facility based on the following findings of fact. One, proposed development generally meets Town of Bair drive-thru performance standards 165-531 2C. Drive-through lanes are clearly marked without obstructing parking service zones or emergency access. Three, provision of 11 stacking spaces exceeding the minimum requirement. Four, noise from speaker systems will comply with Maryland state regulations. And five, drive-th through windows and queuing lanes are located along the rear facade away from the public rightway meeting uh screening and location standards. Second.

All those in favor? I Jimmy, since we're moving right down the line. Okay,

Madam Chair, I move to approve the special development car wash auto detailing service. That's why I asked that question. Details, by the way. Uh, approval of the car wash auto detail service is based on the following findings of fact. Car number one, car wash meets town performance standards 165-531, paragraph 2, item H. All car wash services are performed indoors. Number two, no outdoor storage service or display areas. Adjoining properties are all commercial, so no screening is required. Item three, lighting, noise, and odors are addressed. Site layout provides safe driving lanes, traffic separation, and adequate service delivery access. Item four, vehicle queuing line parking spaces are to be diminished. Uh I think we did we change that?

That's that has something to do with that. Correct. That stays the same, right? Yes. Okay. Just want to be clear. Mhm. Um item five, outdoor service, pump Allen and display standards do not apply here. Item six, building meets the maximum 30% window requirement. Second. All those in favor? I. Thank you very much. You're all done. Welcome to everyone. We appreciate it. I may have to change my location now. There you go. What is the estimated time for um that you'd be actually up and running, do you think?

Hopefully, we're we're putting shuttles in next year and then build 9 to 10 months. Probably looking at 10 n 10 months to build depending. Very good. Time for next year's snowtorms. There you go. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you everyone. Thank you. recently. Not recently.

You didn't talk about Uhoh. Did you I'm sorry. Did you wish to speak about the

observing? Okay. Thank you. You can if you want. All right. So, Kevin, if you would present the amendment for consideration, this is a

this is a um proposed amendment to the um chapter 165 of the town code uh concerning parking. Um, and it's concerning for the most part the uh length of a uh parking lease that may be uh utilized for parking off off of a site. So if you have a property that is uh required so much parking and they go off site um then there's a limit to you know the the arrangement they can do. And for with that I'll turn it over to Steve Chismar to talk about what's being proposed. Okay.

Yeah. because right now we're going through a process of looking at all parking within town um for various reasons and and I'll get to some of those but this is really looking at two things. One is the long-term leasing of town parking to meet project requirements and the other one is fee and loo and how we want to whether we want to continue that how we want to address it or whatever but I'll address the long-term leasing. Um, in essence, by doing the long-term leasing, it it's kind of like subsidizing parking for the project. Um, because we're providing our town resources to do that, especially for the residential, not necessarily for the commercial, but more for the residential. And the the thing about that is is if if you give a lease for 15 years, you're you're basically given the lease for that project for in in perpetuity because what are you going to do at the end of 15 years? say no. And then you leave the residents high and dry. Where are they going to park? They're going to park in the streets or whatever. So, so basically that's what you're doing. We're we're basically giving them the town resources for as long as that project is in ex in existence. Okay. So, and and that goes into it. It limits what the the board can do with those resources because you have that hanging on that resource. Okay. that you can't you can't take that resource and use it for something else. And that's what we're looking at in this one that's one of the things we're looking at in the parking study is that you know right now the parking is in the red. We're taking this year we're budgeting about $140,000 of of reserve dollars to make the parking fund solvent. We can't keep going on with that. So, you know, over I I don't know how much we have left in there, but we're getting those numbers and we're going to have a meeting. I think we're having addressing that in early dis early January is is the meeting we're going to

have to look at all that those resources. But, um we like I said, we can't keep operating like that. Um and and what we want to do is potentially with this with with this study is look at the last study we have well a parking study about three years ago. So we have plenty of parking in downtown Belair. Okay. So if that's the case and we want to relook at that re revisit all those numbers. It's like why don't we sell our parking? Why don't we sell those lots get them back on the tax roles make something productive out of those that resources. For instance, ju just as an example, we have the har we have the the Hickory surface lot and right across the street is the Hickory parking garage. And if the Hickory lot surface lot is not being used and we know the parking garage is underutilized, then maybe that's a lot we might want to sell off and to to somebody to develop. Okay, so that's our thinking about that. And if we have the leased lots hanging over us, the leased the leasing of of those of some of the lots for for projects hanging over our heads, we can't sell the lots off because you have to have those lots within 500 ft of the project. So that's why we're saying we should probably get rid of we're looking at getting rid of remove of long-term leasing for for projects. So the other aspect of the thing was fee and loo. Right now, we allow fee and loo within 500 feet for up to 50% of the parking requirement. Uh we charge $4,000 per spot, per slot parking space. Uh it's been like that for a long time. Um so, and right now it can only be used to expand parking within the town. It cannot be used for basic maintenance of

those funds. So we were looking at how will we do we want to continue fee and loo how should we do it what should the price of a parking spot be and how what percentage of the project can be satisfied with fee and loop because basically you're just buying out of parking for that. Um so those are the things we're we're looking at in this whole aspect of looking at parking in town in general and trying to make this the parking fund solvent. So we're just looking for input from you about what do you think about these things. Uh what like fee and Lou you know do something like we what was done a year ago with open space we tied the cost of open space to the price of the real estate. Should we do something like that instead of every year going by no not 4,000 it's 4500 next year raise the rates to 5,000 you know for fee and Lou to keep up with the cost of doing business

you have the latitude to raise the fee annually right now how's that we do we can we can raise it annually or we can tie it to something like we did with open space which was tie it to the value of the property and could you dedicate those fees not to further parking but to support the parking fund. Yes, that's what we would like to do for all for anything in the parking fund because right now the parking fund is for expanding parking andor uh uh you know for maintenance and and improvements and stuff but right right now we can only take the fee in lie for parking to expand parking we need more money

we need to yeah we need to maintain what we have yeah Steve how many of these 15-year job agreements do we have in town? We just have one. Hickory Hickory Flats. Hickory Flats. And we have a fiveyear with the state. This wouldn't impact Hickory Flats anyway. So Hickory Flats, when when does that their clock start when they get their UNO? They're on their extension year right now. They It doesn't start until they get their UNO. So it has not the clock has not started. There are two We're not getting any money for it. There are two There's one leases. There's another agreement with a group home that's off of uh Courtland for like three spots. Is that right, Liz? Four spots.

Four in the garage. That's Harford County, correct? No, it's uh half Well, depends on who you talk to, but it's half Harford County, half the town, or twothirds Harford County, one third the town. The county has twothirds of the spaces. The town has oneird of the spaces, right? And how's that fit in with the agreement with Hickory Flats? That's what they're using. That's what Hickory Flats is using. They're going to use, right? That was the least agree or the town. The towns, right? Uses the town spots. Yeah, they're using the town spots in the parking garage. I believe it's 70. 70.

70. 70 spots. I believe that was a give or take. Yeah. So, we just wanted to bring I just wanted to bring that forward to you to see what you what you thought about some of these ideas. And then, you know, again, we need to get the numbers from uh from Lisa Moody about how much we're bringing in, what are our expenditures yeartoear, and and you know, what do we need to do to try to make this fund solvent? And so that's what and then you know fee and new kind of plays into that in addition to just the lease you know because we have a lot of yearly leases uh the yearly lease rates might go up because they're $35 a month.

So what do you think's causing the shortage? Um Kevin, I you said several years ago or before COVID, we had a full garage and when people were actually coming to work or whatever, right around 2005, 2006, we had a completely leased out garage with people waiting. But the economy was different then, right? So, um now there is more than 100 spaces available. I can't remember how many exactly

and that that 100 spaces that's available includes the one that we've already accounted for for Hickory Flats.

Um I think it would be probably less than 100 uh if you in if you included Hickory Flats it would but not much less. There's 37 leases in the garage, 74 spaces or permits that are issued um either through a lease or through some arrangement. Um for example, for the businesses that are located in the um incubator at the armory, um those tenants receive a parking pass because there's limited parking in the armory. Um so that's where we're at and that does not include Hickory Flats. that does not go into effect yet. The town owns or has control over 334 spaces in the garage that we have that we can lease and have leased. So, those are the numbers for that. And there is this wouldn't come before you because um it's not a an amendment to the development regulations, but myself and director um Moody, Lisa Moody with finance are working on revisions to the finance section of the code that address the parking fund. Um and one of the corrections that we're working on now with language is the fund currently says that it is only to expand um parking in the town of Belair and we're changing that to make it maintenance and operations and pretty much anything that the town would need. Um I mean we don't have any funds that I'm aware of at the moment for fe that we're holding

general use or parking fund. parking fund. There's specific section just for the parking fund. Um, and it's also there needs to be some language changes to it just to bring it up to more, you know, current methods of operation, but that won't come before you because it's not an amendment to the developmentally advisory in this. Correct. Yeah. So, I just wanted to point that out because that is in the that's kind of one of those things where if you change this or there's an intent to change this, it impacts other sections of the code that we needed to catch up with. So,

so are we uh reducing the number of parking spots in Belair? For instance, you know, Steve, you mentioned the lot across from the garage in Hickory do away with that and have somebody hypothetical. No, no, no, I realize that, but are is this going to stifle development if we don't have the parking spaces people have another I don't know what that's I you know we're going to have to look at that. I mean we're just that's we're just throwing this stuff out because you know the parking just so you know the parking fund is an enter parking is an enterprise fund. It must take care of itself. And you know, we're taking out of reserves 140,000 at least this year was budgeted 140,000 for FY26, okay, to make it even to be. So, we can't keep doing that. And last year, we did the same thing. We did a similar amount. I can't remember what that was. So, it's just we're just we're losing here. We got to do something. I hope it doesn't. We don't want to stifle development whatsoever, you know. Um, you know, like there's still like for for the B2 central district, um, there's no fee in L for commercial in that area. So, they don't there's no parking requirements for B2, you know, so they don't even have to do the fee in L. But in 2A, 3A, and three, those are the zones that would have right now that have fee and L. So, you know, we're just looking at how do we again vo hasn't been a major part in this, but if it is in a project, is 4,000 of parking space the right number? And should it be 50%, should it be 30%, should it be 70%. I don't, you know, it's that's what we're just looking at. How do we looking for recommendations for

input? So, the fee and money, where does that go? Does that go to the parking fund or does that go to some place else? Just to the parking fund and we have to use it within 10 years, but it can't it has to go to additional parking or current. That's currently yes. So we'd like to change you can't use it for maintenance and all that, right? And operations and whatever just to balance the fund, you know, you've got to go build another parking lot that we think we don't need. The parking study showed that right being involved with that. We had plenty of parking. Yeah. The last fee and loo money we had we used to expand the Lee Street parking lot and that was five six years ago.

Who was that? Do you remember who that was from? Where the foo money was from? Yeah. You remember what project? I believe it was from Ropewalk. Talk about Okay. Blast from the past, right? So, if we eliminate the 15-year renewable parking lease agreement, but we've already approved somebody with that, we grandfathering them in. They're grandfathered. They're grandfathered. They're grandfathered in. Yeah. Yeah. Unless something changes and they have to come back for the planning commission. Going forward. Going forward. If we give them, we would not give 15 years renewable at all. You wouldn't give anything. So they got So basically this would say that if you're doing a project you got to find parking on your site.

Yep. In the 2A, 3A, and three zones. Yes. You'd be doing away with the fee in L of No, that's what we're we're debating that whether we should I thought What did you just say, Liz? I'm sorry. For the long-term lease. The long-term lease. Long there would be no leases anymore at all. If there's no leasing, how would uh how would the fee in LA work then? If there was no lease, what would happen? Well, fee and Lou is separate. So, fee and Lou is I only have four spaces. I'm required to have eight. I'm gonna pay for fee and Lou or buy the other four. You pay a one-time fee. One time, right, to the town. That's how to expand right now. How to expand parking. If the town doesn't use it in 10 years, it goes back to developer.

Is that is business-wise, is that in our best interest to get a one-time fee as opposed to getting something we can collect more and more annually as value goes up or We don't want to price ourselves out. I mean, that's, you know, you got a a balance there. Would that be nice for the parking fund? Yes. But I don't know if that would be good for business. So, so if we give Hickory Flats the option to make up their parking shortage with a lease through the parking garage, who's paying that?

They are. They're paying the town a monthly lease uh that is they're contracted for for 15 years. Now, after 15 years, if the situation is still the same, they're going to have to reup the lease for another 15 years, right? Um I mean, assuming that they have not in that 15-year period found a way to provide those spaces on their lot, that would be correct, right? There's a lot of things that can happen in 15 years. or purchase another lot that they can use so that they don't have to lease the town's right.

Well, I mean, I like recurring revenue. Recurring revenue solves a lot of those than one time fee you get up front that you may never see again. But you get a monthly charge each month. You know, you can budget to that. the Now granted, Hickory Flats hasn't, you know, come to fruition yet, so we don't have that money. But if you had money coming in every month from 80 spots for whatever they whatever they're going to have over there, I mean, that's that's money that you're going to get for the next 15 years. And I don't know why I don't know why that would be any different than somebody coming into town going to Bon Tempas and parking in the garage and paying their 50 cents to walking up the street.

Better eat fast. Yeah. No, I mean I don't know what we're what are we charging on a monthly basis for a person? It's $35 a month and their lease requires them to pay in advance on an annual basis. So it's roughly 27 28,000 right now at the current rates. 27 to 28,000 a year. So they're just paying one one lump sum.

Correct. We are not doing monthly on that one. I think for purposes of this body and u obviously you have lots of details to work out and but for purposes of this body I I could certainly support um using parking fees including parking in lie of fees to support the parking fund per se as opposed to having to address it with maintenance or expansion of existing parking lots. That's out of what I'm hearing, I'm supportive of the idea that way. I don't

Well, I mean, it sounds like when the original enterprise fund was set up, it was just set up for parking in and of itself and not for the maintenance and and continuation of parking. And so, I I mean, I don't know structurally how you guys set the ordinance up, but you need to I mean, to me, This ordinance is being set up to to utilize as long as the funds are coming in for parking, whether it's, you know, black top and an off street site or, you know, somebody has to fix a pothole. I I think you should be able to use those funds from the parking fund because it's for parking, not go to the general fund and say, "Hey, we need to fix a pothole."

But we're not talking the general fund. We're talking about the parking fund would get the money. It'll still stay in the parking fun. What they're saying right now is they can't use the parking fund money for the maintenance of it. They can only expand. No, we can't we can't use the fee in LE for um maintenance and operations right now. That can only be used to expand that. We're changing that obviously for that reason. The leases can be used for expansion and maintenance and operations. Okay. But just the fee and loot can only be used for expansion.

Yeah. I think there was one of the points was that when you have a 15-year lease, you're now encumbering spaces for 15 years and taking them somewhat away from the town as far as control. Uh those spaces essentially would are, you know, those 70 spaces are lost for 15 years until and unless there's a change to the code that enables uh use of those spaces in some other way. I mean the only way I could see them being lost is if if supply and demand was such that the demand was greater than the supply and right now

supply excess supply and not enough demand. So candidly, I'd be happy to lock something up knowing that I'm getting money every 15 years versus having an empty space. I mean, you look you look at any motel and if they don't rent their their room tonight, they're never seeing that money again. It's gone. Same thing with space sitting in the garage, you have to look at it. If we're not getting money on that space today, we're never going to get we're never going to get it. So, candidly, I I'd be happy to lock something up knowing that I'm going to get money for 15 years on the space, assuming that I've got the supply to cover that. If the demand is such that I have two people that want that space and I'm only getting one, then yeah, you're right. I I don't want to lock it up. I want want the market to to determine what that value is. But if we're in a situation, I mean, not just me personally looking at it. If we're in a situation where you have excess supply and you don't have the demand, I'd be happy to lock it up for 15 20 years as long as I'm getting money, then I'm I know that I'm not going to get further out. But that just makes

I do concur with Don's thought just from a business standpoint. That's I'm just looking for business. I would I would I would if I was doing it, I'd rather get even if I had an escalator clause in the 15-year lease, so I'm going to get more and more, but I'm going to get it once a year and have it have it grow. No. And I don't know why we wouldn't ask I mean stuff goes up every year, so I don't know why, right? We wouldn't have some one or two%.

I kind of agree with what you're saying, but the other aspect of it is is that if we had 15year leases in every parking lot, you've we Well, that you're tying it up those resources in these all these different parking lots and then the board would not be able to sell off lots.

I mean, and the thing is you have two people in control of the same resource. We should never have two people. It's bad business to have two people in control of the same resources. So, we're taking parking lots. We said the board has control over it and this commission has control over it. I don't know how to make with the separation. between the elected officials and this board, this commission. How do we get us to both agree on saying a long-term lease was good? Maybe good. You can use it for this parking lot because we're supposed to have this separation. And how would that process go?

Well, I mean, let's let's back up. So, you know, we gave Fee and L or we gave the parking garage to Hickory Flats. We could have just as easily said you can have a you can you can't have the garage, but there's another parking an open space uh lot down the street that you could park in. I mean, I don't know why you as the town board can't sell a lot that if you wanted to sell it and you have certain people in there that have quote unquote a 15-year thing, then you move them someplace else. like if if we set it up in such a way that they're quote unquote grandfathered in, then at the end of their 15 years, they get a new contract saying we can move you anywhere within the town. Like if the little isn't we still have the town lot that little lot at the end of um

what's the got to be within it. I know. If on Bond Street, following your logic, Don, you can't do that. And the reason why is because let's take Hickory Flats right now. You guys, when you approved them to go 70 spaces in the parking garage, I did. Go ahead.

Okay. Yeah. You globally, third person, you guys made two findings of fact during their cases. Number one was you had to make a finding that there was a 500 ft from the subject property. The other thing was that there was adequate pedestrian, you know, crossings, safe crossings. So, in order for you to do that, um, and say, "Okay, those findings are done. They're locked into stone." You'd have to come back to the planning commission to say, "Okay, I need this finding." Well, the only other lot in the area would be Hickory. If they come back to the planning commission, they're subject to all of the new regulations. Their project's gone. It's goodbye. Now, if the board of town commissioners wanted to, they could certainly amend the that section of the code to allow for more flexibility. I mean, I I'd kind of look to Kevin because I don't know where the 500 ft and the pedestrian crosswide makes sense to me, but like, you know,

but I mean, Hickory Hickory the flat open space is within 500 ft. There's no way that it's not. It It is. It's got all the pedestrian. It's got a light. It's correct. But you have to make that finding. The code says you have to make that finding. You didn't make a finding that the Hickory parking lot is within 500 feet and they're safe pedestrian. You guys made a finding that that the garage was within 500 ft and pedestrian. I I don't remember what was asked at that at the meeting, but that's the code. No, I'm just saying. Was it was the garage asked or was the Hickory flat or was the Hickory lot pass? I assume I wasn't town council when that went through. I assume that they had asked for the garage. I I don't know.

I think they did. Okay. So they I mean so they asked for the garage. Yeah it but we could have equally said yeah we we like we don't want to put you in the garage or down the street. We could have done that I guess. Yeah. I understand your point. Yeah. But you know now to your point the board of town commissioners could amend that section. They could amend it. Right. I think I mean personally I think the 500 feet and the pedestrian cross well and and the pedestrian crosswalks that they have to make a finding.

I would not to me that I would not have a problem. I mean I I've argued for for probably since I've been on on this commission that the number of people that want to park on Main Street because they're right out in front of Bont Tempos versus walking from the garage to Bontamp is is ridiculous. Because if you were in Baltimore and you had a garage that was within a block of what you wanted and you had parking space there all the time, you would have died and gone to heaven. But here in Bair, we want to park right out in front of Main Street. We want to go into whatever store, restaurant, bar, whatever. We don't want to walk.

Well, I mean, it's the same thing with the businesses. I mean, I'm I'm just I've used this my business, my my law office as many others in Bair without the town of Belair parking lots. I cannot operate my business. If I can't park my employees and park my car there, I'm gone. I'll move somewhere else when I can. So, I mean, that's just a business decision, you know. Yeah. I think our our parking consultant that did our study a couple years ago said that the town of Bellair does not have a parking problem and it has a walking problem. Yeah, exactly. And firmly agree with that.

I live two blocks over and I drive up here to go to all the local restaurants. I'm I'm guilty of that one. So,

I mean, I would have no problem with you guys changing it to a thousand feet. I mean, it's three football fields. I mean, you know, but I I don't think I don't think what we as a commission do when it comes to u saying something's fee and loo or we're allowing somebody to park in a certain space that you can't come back in and say, "Well, that was nice, but we got a great offer on this particular property." As long as you can within that quote unquote 500 feet existing thing put somebody in another spot. I don't know how you're wrong. I'm just trying to play catchup a little bit on this hickory hickory flats and the garage deal. Um but I would assume there's escalation clause in the contract every year.

No, it's key to the board of town commissioners. Any year at any point in time the board can up the parking permit fees when they do that. Doesn't matter if it's the middle of the year or they usually do it at the first of the year, isn't it? The fiscal year. If it goes up, they typically do it with the budget. And then um do understand when you're escalating the fees, it's not just for Yes. It's for everybody. Just curious. And I assume that that contract's not enforced yet until they build. Correct. So if that falls through, that

that falls through. Just the other thing to make note of is that we we researched this in other jurisdictions and nobody either the county Aberdine or Hav Grace has um long-term leasing or fee and loo but this is the only project that has this leasing approved to go with flats.

Correct. So, I'm I'm concerned that if these changes are made and um that it could be detrimental to the to to growth. I don't know how better to explain it than that, which that may be sounding pretty hollow, but I'm I'm concerned. Well, the the other jurisdictions with uh that don't the other jurisdictions in the county doesn't seem to have hindered their growth by not having them. None of them. None of them have it. No other jurisdiction. No other in the county.

Aberdine Pavity Grace or the county itself do not but they're very different and unique compared to what Bair does. We're different. Everyone has their uniquenesses. That's true. Okay. Well, do we just what what do you want from us? Do you want Well, you have the proposed legislation. You either need to recommend uh it to be passed as uh written uh recommend changes or recommend that it does not be passed as written.

Is that the only Is that the only options? Because I don't think this is because I don't think this is really ready. Yeah. As written or or presented to you to to be passed. I don't

I think there's more discussion that needs to go on. We were just looking for input as to what do you think about this you know and what you know again the parameters of such like the fee and loo 70%. tie it to the price of the to a parking spot with the real estate of buying a lot. You know what I mean? Is that how you want to should that be something or should we just put a I don't know how do we tie the number to of fee and loot? How do we tie a dollar value to a fee and loot? Things of that. That's what I'm looking for.

Yeah. When when I first got here, Floo was $2,400 and we've upped it to 4,000. Um, and that's still not enough to build the parking space, right? And the all the stuff about pricing and all is beyond our normal zone anyway. So,

and that isn't right in front of you. That is what Liz and Lisa will be looking at and will not come back in front of you. I would move I would move that the planning commission expresses support of investigation of um town of Bella town board action to improve the financial standing of the parking fund by providing the board of commissioners more latitude for charges of parking spaces. is uh for fee in lie of and for utilization of those funds uh as to be amended to be different than they are today.

I'd second that. How does that feel about that? You okay? Usually I write them down. Is that does that give you something, Steve? I mean, because it's not it's not a place for us to work out details of how much space or anything, but I think we need to support the the idea that the parking fund is you we probably back when we built the garage we probably didn't charge enough then and then we took a long time catching up if we ever did and that's you know and at the at the if you remember at the very beginning we had twothirds of it was leased to Harford County which it still is I assume and u you know the other we were scrambling for the rest of it to get utilized

and you got to look you I think one of you brought up earlier about the maintenance that's a big item to look at sure and the garage's got some age on it Now, I was a pretty young guy when we passed this legislation to build the thing. You know, one of the things you may want to consider instead of just cutting out We have a motion on the floor. So, we have a second All right. All those in favor? I'll just throw this throw this out

to to consider for the uh 15 year instead of wiping that out. Maybe maybe look at something like you do with schools that you can't build anything when you get greater than 110% capacity. Maybe you look at it from the standpoint of depending on whether you've got the supply versus demand. So in other words, if you have high demand and you don't have the supply, you know, you don't get a or 15 year. But if you've got supply, maybe it's a fiveyear, a renewable five is is more palatable than sending something out 15 years and and you reevaluate. Good idea.

I mean, going with this going with a lower number on the lease. You're saying go with the shorter leases. Shorter lease. In other words, you we'll give you five years because we we we're not going to project out 15 years or 20 years or 30 years to say what the demand's going to be. But, you know, assuming that the past 20 years has said, you know, there's going to be supply here,

then that that's one thing. And get to a point where okay, well, you know, we we need we need supply because we don't have the demand, you know, in order for you to continue on because we're at X capacity. Your your your cost is going to be this. And tell them up front. Come up with with what you think your capacity is going to be. If you're if you're at a like right now, if the if the garage is 80% capacity, you get this rate. If the garage gets to 100% capacity, it's going to be this rate. But if the garage is at 110% capacity, if you want to stay here, it's going to be this rate because there's no use giving them a discount. because we can sell that spot because we need the we've got we've got the supply or I mean we've got the demand we can sell we can sell that spot if you don't take it. So this is going to be your new cost. And if if it's graduated that way, then somebody that comes in and says, "Okay, well, I'm going to gamble, then in five years, it's, you know, they're not going to come in and have that greater development." And I So I know my cost right now is going to be this. It'll probably be the same thing,

right? At in the 15 years I've been here, leases for the garage spa for spaces in the garage have not changed. Um they were they changed almost the year I came came here like 2011 from almost what you're talking about when if somebody came through the door and only needed one space they got it was $45 a space. Uh if they wanted between two and seven it was 35 and then if they got more than that it was less. Those are numbers that are I'm making up but a day to park. So the more spaces you got, the less you have to pay. That was closer to five to come to Belair.

That was changed to just 35 as a flat fee. So, and the only one that is less than 35 is the Hickory Lot, which is 25. And it still has not gotten anybody to Nobody still parks there. Yeah. Donald, look at that. I mean, the only thing that I I hate the the the biggest issue that that I see is that I I don't want a project built and then parking be an issue for it and then the project just doesn't fill up. Wow. You know what I mean? Like like in your example, if the if the price of parking which is going to be passed on to the say the renters or whatever, that's just the way it is.

It it just Right. and then it it just makes it unaffordable for them. Then it's not they're not going to rent the places out and then it becomes a ghost if somebody I don't want that to happen either. But regardless of of that fact, I mean, if somebody comes in and has a five acre lot, they need X number of of spaces and X number of of of residentials are going to live in that space. And if they need, you know, what 20 if they need 25 or 30 parking spaces, that money's that that gets filtered into what that price of the lease is going to be. They may not see it, but somebody somebody an accountant for the purchase of the property, right? An accountant says, "Okay, well,

you know, we can build on three acres. We need an acre for open space and this acre over here for parking. You know, we've got to cover the cost of this acre and it's it's going to be in in that threeacre lease, right? And I it. They don't see it, but it's going to be part of the whatever that monthly that cost is like it's going to be on the builders or the management company's mortgage, whatever.

But I I agree. I don't I don't think that I mean somewhere when you're redoing all this the the regulations. I think that you should be able to say we can move you from this space over here to this space over here. I mean, I just that's the way it goes if we want to sell a lot. But I mean, the neat thing about the Hickory Lot is you've got a garage right across the street. So I don't I know that's if if you're putting people if we're putting people in the in the in the garage because of 500 ft. The Hickory Lot's 500 ft, too. So I do park there when I go to the library just for the sake of Well,

and I do park in the garage when I go there's there's two there's two lots there. There is the county lot for the the library and then there's the town lot. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not all of that parking that would be Yeah. Well, as far as as far as the competitions, so to speak, for apartments. Now, I understand if people would have options to get an apartment out in the county, but those those many more units are going to be hopefully built over at the Harford Mall, at least been approved to be built. They're gonna be passing along a pretty considerable parking fee to those folks as part of their terms, too, because they're building a garage.

So, some not uh they're not going to eat that, I assume.

Well, no. I mean, the guy said it's $400,000 per unit that it's costing that. I mean, you look at a lease, you look at a mortgage on 400,000 bucks. I mean, you're talking 25 $3,000 a month for for rent or for a We do. Well, and you know, we've got our our situation here is compounded by the fact that we're the county seat and the state uh having a significant presence here. And as their needs expand and they gobble up properties off the tax, there goes your development opportunities. And uh I mean, you just can't have only so much of the rest of it be parking. I think I need a vote on fee and on the uh extended leases.

You've talked about the financing end of it, right? How do you how does the How do the five of you feel about extended leases, meaning 15-year leases? Because that's really what's in front of you. That was meant to been included in was it? Okay, maybe I just We're just encouraging them to explore ways to to to figure it out to to to make to make the parking fund work. No, I'm and to specific, you know, and and to dedicate more of the funds to it and get out of the business of having uh to any fee in lie of money or any parking money that has to be to has to improve parking numbers. It can be used to balance the parking fund budget. That's

who maintains the garage, the town or the county or both? We manage it. Maintains it, but we share the cost with the county. It went through, if I remember right, it went through in a Bair bond issuance. That was it. It went through the bond went through Bair rather than Harford County at the time. Right. Is that No, it went through went the other way. Maybe that's why we had them do it.

We didn't get it. So he had debt as I understand it from that gave us awesome historical rendition. They took a loan that had a massive balloon pay was like millions of dollars and we couldn't pay it off without causing issues with our budget. So they approached the um county to take a bond because they could geta ratings to pay the debt off and then we just paid the county back and they came up with this agreement.

Okay, let's see. U meeting adjourned then we would like to recognize her last meeting sitting here every you know when you came here it took us from 7 o' to 6:30 to 6:00 I mean and then I tried 5:30 I couldn't I couldn't I can't do it and we continuously ganged up on her too in terms of who's going to chair this committee Well,

thank you. Absolutely. Well, I thank you very much. Um, well, car I'm sorry I won't have an opportunity to get to know you better, but you got a phenomenal mentor there. Liz is just a gift and a prize uh to the to the town. Honestly, what you bring is phenomenal. And Steve, I wish you well as you continue um as one of the town commissioners and hopefully um progress and you know benefits to the town itself. And Jimmy, you are so lucky honestly to have these three guys

and I'm sure that um you take the time to listen to them because boy they bring the institutional knowledge. I've learned a lot from all of you in the last year. Oh my Kevin, you are amazing. you you um give us such um information to really help us understand and make hopefully the best of decisions. But I love you guys. I'm going to miss you very much. Well, you know, if you come on the what's it the eth we can put you back in for another year. I guarantee that.

Just show up out in the audience. honestly the institutional knowledge that you that you all bring and that keep as well. Um I thank you very much for your guidance and it's been great. How long were we together? 15 years. 15. Doesn't seem like 15. No. No. No. Time flies when you're having fun, right? Sure does. There's a poinsettia for everyone except for Phil. You can't have one. Come to the staff. So, please take please take a poinsettia with you again. Thank you. And um I will miss you.

You know where we're at every Thursday. First first Thursday of the month. Thank you. Oh, do we need to do anything about this? Is there anything is that something you wanted to do? No, that was to help you. Got some evening to All you guys in your new shirt. Yep. I'll wear mine. Motion to the weather.

Second. All those in favor? I