Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

So the first order of business is the approval of the minutes. There were two meetings in July. The first Yeah. Hello. Yes, so the first set of minutes was from our July 3rd meeting. Are there any changes, corrections? I just saw one typo on page five. Second paragraph. It mentions Mr. Thompson said she was hit by a car twice in that area. That should be Miss

Thompson. Yeah. All right. others. Do I have an move for approval as amended? Second. All those in favor? I. And then the second meeting was held on July 17th. Are there any corrections, changes? Yep. Another one. Jimmy, page five, they got Mr. Hyde asks Mr. Mud. It's Mr. Hines. Okay.

And that's also on page six as well. second paragraph and then second end of second paragraph it said Mrs. I'm I'm sorry Miss Thompson made a comment but it doesn't state what their comment was. I don't know if it got missed or we should just strike that or it's I guess it's up to Miss Thompson. I don't remember remember what the comment was either. It could have been miss type. I don't know. What was the first page? Oh, page five. The first paragraph, uh, second paragraph was Mr. Hyde. At the beginning of the paragraph, it's me, Mr. Hines.

And at the end of that paragraph, it states, "Miss Thompson made a comment." Then there's nothing after it.

Page five, second paragraph. Oh, I'm sorry. Page six. Put these readers back on. Yep. Page six. Yeah. Comment on page five was

fifth paragraph on page five was should have been Mr. Hines as well. I have one on page 11. Uh one, two, three, fourth paragraph from the bottom. Uh thank I believe uh thanks to Mrs. Dorton back in 1965 for grammar that that should be coat should be s apostrophe rather than e apostrophe s. Right. Thank you Mrs.

D. Okay. Any other move they be approved of the various uh corrections? Oh, there's one. Did you have another one, Jimmy? One on page nine. Uh third, fourth, fifth paragraph down, fifth sentence, it says uh he said they were comfortable company. uh they they can use the same company by its standalone property that has its one agreements. I didn't understand what that meant.

Yes. Yeah, that that fits.

Any others? Any others? Move for approval as amended. All those in favor? I. Okay. Thank you. Kevin, would you please present what's going to be discussed tonight.

Okay, this is a extension of approval for uh Harford residences at Harford Mall which is considered the second phase of development of the Harford Mall. Um it was originally approved on January 4th of 2024. Um and it's due to expire January 4th of 2026. So, this is a little early, but they can make an application to do so any time. Uh, and that uh the town so far has not received a final plan. We've gotten a signed uh letter of approval, but we still need a final plan. We still still need the uh record plat uh for the subdivision. And um one of the conditions or one of several conditions in there were an adjustment to utilities and I believe that was shown in your phase three already but it's uh it is part of this approval too. So, um there was also a subsequent review that this planning commission made um a couple months after January 4th of 24 2024 which reviewed the streetscape in front of the uh multif family building. Um that was a condition of this approval. So if there is any action on on the extension tonight, it counts towards that too. So

if just by point of record, if we if we approve this extension tonight, would the one year start tonight or January the 3rd? January the 4th. Yes. Even though it's being approved now that Okay. Yes. So it would be a year from So the the expiration would be January of 27. All right. Thank you. Anyone wish to speak?

Yes, ma'am. Good evening everybody. Good to see everyone. Um, for the record, I'm Christopher Mud with Venable LLP. Um, here on behalf of the developer of phase 2, CDP North. Uh, and with me here tonight with from CDP are Mr. Kyle Whitman in the front, Mr. Kyle James in the middle, and then Tom Miner with Fred Warden Associates in the back. And a lot of familiar faces, I'm sure, to everybody. And Mr. John Meshel is here as well, who's with CBL, the owner of the mall property. And thanks to Mr. uh Small for giving a brief introduction and I'm going to I'm going to give a little bit more of an introduction and then hopefully give you an or plan to give you an explanation that will hopefully make you all comfortable with the request that we have before you. Um as Mr. Small indicated, uh the planning commission approved the site plan for the residences at Harford Mall, which is now since we've been in for phase three is known as phase two of the Harford Mall redevelopment. Um, and that was approved on January 4th, 2024. That approval included the site plan, landscape plan, and special approval, as well as the subsequent streetscape approval that Mr. Small mentioned uh just a minute ago. Um, as a reminder, it's a 249 unit uh apartment community with on-site parking deck and best-in-class amenities. Um, what's what's you're looking at now is the actual site plan. This is what we're asking you to extend. Um I provided hard copies of this to everyone as well. Um and going to move to the second page. Um this begins the second page and third page begin the um landscape plan. Um the next page in your packet is the record plat that Mr. Small mentioned which actually on the schedule that we'll get to in a bit is due to be submitted tomorrow. Um, and then the last page, and I'm going to stick here

for a minute just to remind everybody, um, of an orientation to the site. I know it's been about a month or so since I was here last time. Um, I'm going to step away from the mic for a second. So, phase two is on this side of the site here, as everyone may remember. We were here on phase three last month, phase four in the corner, and then this was future development. But this this plan that you're seeing here was actually part of the presentation that we made with phase three to show the master plan uh for everybody. Just wanted to make sure everybody was properly oriented for this evening. Um, so as Mr. Small indicated, a site plan in the town of Bair has a two-year lifespan under town code section 165-73 uh subsection B9. And that same section allows us uh to make a request for an extension of the plan. It requires a submission of an application uh to the planning commission, which we've done through Mr. Small, brought us here today. And then that section specifies that only one 12-month extension of the original approval shall be granted. And that's what brings us here today, a request to make this extension for one 12-month uh period until January 4th of 2027. Um, interestingly, tonight it's September 4th and we're exactly 20 months removed from the approval. Um, and I know there must be a few burning questions from people about, you know, what we've been doing since that approval. What have we been up to? Um, what's left, how long will it take? Um, and and I'm here, uh, and why and why hasn't it advanced or why is it only advanced as far as it has to this point? And I'm here tonight to give you a justification and an explanation for that. Um, and I'm going to start with the last question of uh, in a very global way of why it's taken time to get here 20 months later. Um, and I'm going to start by saying that in about a week, it'll be 20 years since I've been a land use lawyer. Came out of law school, went

to clerk for a judge, and became a land use lawyer. And I've worked on dozens of projects in 20 years. I've worked on mixeduse projects, small projects, big projects. And I was thinking as I was getting prepared for this, I I I I don't know that I've worked on a more complicated project than this one. Um, and it's it's a great project to work on, but it is extremely complicated. We start we have a very large property with two uh different property owners and a massive outdated building um that presents demolition challenges. We have continued postapproval site investigations where we've come to discovered some unexpected things that we didn't know at the time the application was made in 2023. Um, we add to the fact we add to that fact that we find ourselves now in this phased development approach um to redevelopment. And that in and of itself is complicated. I'm going to talk more about that this evening. Um, and then it becomes even more complex when the different phases are to be owned, developed, and operated by different developers and operators. A lot of moving parts, a lot of people, a lot of lawyers. um that we've worked with Miss Thompson on a number of things and I'll talk more about that as well. Um and all this has simply made for a challenging landscape that CDP and their investors and lenders um have had to grapple with as they've worked toward uh facilitating approvals and releasing funding in full pursuit of permits for construction. Um and more specifically as to these time-consuming issues we've faced to date, Mr. Small noted that there were um a number of conditions or actually 10 conditions to your approval in 2024. Um and almost immediately after that approval, CDP set off to work on two of what I'll call the gating conditions basically. Um and they were pertaining to to agreements that were required to

be negotiated between CDP, the town, and the other owners and developers of the other phases of this project. Um, these agreements took 11 months to negotiate. Um, and a lot of that has to do with, and that's that's nearly half of the two-year window that we're talking about here. Um, and fortunately, with the tremendous help of Mr. Small and Miss Thompson. Um, we got those agreements and Liz, I think, can certainly attest to the fact that when you're dealing with three different lawyers of three different owners plus Liz, um, the back and forth in negotiations were uh, significant and and it took a long time. Uh, but Liz got us there and thank you for that. Secondly, um, we had to resolve a very important issue of facilitating the future project's connection to the sewer system. Um, and again with Liz's amazing help, we were um involved. It involved yet another lawyer and another private property owner. Um, but we were able to resolve that issue as well to facilitate an easement to make connection to the sewer system in uh in an efficient way uh for this project, which was great. Um, and then along the way in that exercise, we discovered some on-site areas where easements had never been conveyed. So, we cleaned that up as well. Um, so a lot of paperwork essentially before we even hit the pavement with the idea of permitting and things like that. And when you add these concrete issues to the fact that a project like this takes a s significant amount of capital to deploy and and by significant just for your uh interest in education. I suppose the the apartment building itself just phase two is going to be $100 million of investment to to build. Um and so when CDP's seeking funding for that, um you have basically a combination of of conventional lenders who are going to

lend about 70% of that amount and then 30% comes from p high net worth individuals, private investors, and people don't people who are making those types of investments just don't do it on a whim. They want to make sure that when they're doing it, they seek to eliminate and to mitigate risks. They want to make sure there are certainties in what they're investing in. Um, and the items described above are big risks that that you would be asking these folks to take on uh and deploy money and to sign off on a deal without knowing things like that. Um, like the like the sewer easement and the agreements with the property uh the other property owners. Um and so further while not concrete risks like an agreement or the sewer connection these capital partners also look uh at a project like this where there are multiple critical pieces right we have residential and when this project started it was residential and the rest of the mall was going to become retail and these capital partners say well that you know that's great um but they want to have some measure of certainty and expectation that that's going to come to fruition as Well, and I think everyone here agrees and understands and knows and it's why you've been so um I think why you've found a way to support this project and approve these plans. Um we've got a dying mall, right? And the proposal for the residences at Harford Mall was was built um essentially in concert with the idea that this remaining acreage was going to be uh commercial or at least a critical mass of it was going to be redeveloped to commercial. And um that's so that the people who live there can walk right out their front door to any number of great uses. And I was here um a couple times this month on behalf of the phase three developer and I was talking about how a place like Whole Foods and the top-notch commercial tenants that they want are likewise expecting that people are going to live that close to them. And the reverse is the same here. Uh the folks

and the investors and the people who want to invest in the residences want to make sure that the rest is going to go on. So, it became increasingly important for these folks to see phase three come to fruition, which happened with your help. Thank thank you um this past summer of with that approval. And so that keeps the momentum going for this project. Um, and I can tell you from experience on other mixeduse projects where components are to be constructed by uh different developers that there's a massive amount of coordination that needs to happen between to deliver components in an efficient and effective way and and CDP has been spending time these last 20 months ensuring that everyone can execute um what they've presented to the town through this phased approach and they're doing that not only that they can execute but they want to make sure that their partners and the other folks can as well. So, I hope uh now you're starting to understand and get a feel for all these overlapping layers that CDP um and their capital partners have been grappling with over the past 20 months and that you're understanding a little more about why I explained at the top of my presentation that this is truly one of the most complex projects that I've I've had the chance to work on. Um, and when lenders look at something like this, again, um, $100 million to give, they likewise need to get comfortable with that transaction. Um, so I've talked enough about all of this. I I I think that these complexities. Um, and you're listening to me and you're probably thinking, you know, has CDP done nothing for the past 20 months? Have they not spent a dime? Um, and just waiting around for the full speed ahead. And that's not the case. Um, and we gave you also in your packet this list from Frederick Gordon Associates so that you can understand um the top half of this sheet and if everyone can't read this, it should be in hard copy in front of you. Uh but the top half of this sheet are showing all the milestones that Fred Ward has hit and the approvals that

they've obtained and the submissions that they've made to date which include um obviously received the planning commission approval and we've provided uh road packages and utility packages and we've been working with the state and the county on traffic impact analysis uh and storm water management design and we have the record plat that we've been working on and water plans And um I've already talked about the road plans. So it gets you gives you an idea of the types of things that we've been moving along um even in the face of some of these challenges that I've been talking about. So it's not that they've been sitting here doing nothing. Um they have been doing certain things. And as the phase 3 approvals were um positively advancing over the summer, CDP released their project architects to complete the building permit submitts, also known as construction drawings or CDs. Um and I'll note, and I think Mr. Small can probably confirm for you that this CD phase, this construction drawing phase is typically the most expensive part of pre-development efforts. Um, it literally costs a million and a half dollars or more on a project like this to prepare. I went back to prepare the drawings necessary to get building permits for a building like that. And so hopefully you can understand now why an applicant on a project as large as this one with so many unknowns, so many players, um, some early impediments would take some time before deploying resources necessary to advance such an expensive task like that. Um, and I know my presentation to date or to up to this point has been full of a lot of explanation and a lot of buildup to the what now question and what's left and how long will it take. Uh, and looking back at the Fred Ward schedule, that's what the second half of this is meant to do. Um, and as I mentioned earlier that we have a record plat that's going to go in tomorrow. Is that still happening,

Tom?

Okay. Uh we have public final submitts of uh for permits for public sewer. Um we have storm water management sediment erosion control final plans going in public water plans going in. We have a we have dates set in here of expected approvals from agencies and then submissions of bond estimates and public works agreements and the building permits and addressing comments for those all all culminating in an anticipated breakground date on this schedule of sometime between June and September of next year. Um and then we even go so far out to talk about when construction would be complete which we have out in June to September of 28. Um, so, um, sorry, lost my spot. Um, ultimately, I hope, um, that you can appreciate that based on CDP's experience to date, um, they still don't know. There's still certain things that we don't know. So, how many reviews are remaining on these submissions that we're making? How quickly can we resolve comments from agencies? And so as we laid this schedule out, that's why I think we have a pretty good grip on the things in the early early stages of what remains and and we actually have what we think are relatively hard dates for when that's done. And then as it gets later into the permitting and construction commencement, that's where we have ranges and that's meant to accommodate the fact that we at this point don't know what we don't know. Um, but one thing that we do know and what we're here to tell you tonight is that CDP is they remain fully engaged. All of their consultants are fully released. They've all been construct instructed to move forward with expedient pace and they're working CDP is working diligently to deliver this project as quickly as possible. Um we also know that it's not possible um to complete all these

remaining tasks that you see here. It's literally not possible to do that by January 4th of 2026. And that's why we're here. we need the extra year uh provided for under the town code in order to obtain building permits and to commence construction of this project. And I I can tell you that CDP and they can tell you they're really excited um to be in this position. Um what was a concept and a dream in early 2023 is now reality and we can't wait to see it uh to the end and keep this transformational project um growing or rolling I should say in Bair. Um and I think this is amazing opportunity for everyone involved. I feel fortunate to be a part of it. I hope you all do, too. Um, and I I want to thank all of you. I know it's been a lot of time. You spent a lot of evenings with us. I wasn't even here for the meeting in 2024, which I understand was quite spirited or maybe 2023. Um, but you know, we've had some good discussion on phase three. Um, and it's been a lot of time that you guys have had and we're very much appreciative of that. We're appreciative of Kevin's time and Liz's time as well. Um, and we hope that you all agree uh to grant this extension. May I ask, have you been able to get the additional 30% of capital investments?

This is Mr. Whitman. Hi, Kyle Whitman. Um, One Olympic Police, Talson, Maryland. Okay. Is that right? Did I do that right? We're good.

Okay, good. Uh, yes, we've actually secured all funding. This is kind of the last lynch pin of of all of that. Um, so it's just all teed up, ready to go, get the extension, and and we'll, you know, continue um doing what we do. Um, so it's kind of we're not sequential in everything that we do. Some stuff runs concurrent, but when we talk about investing our own money and people that, you know, we tr that trust us with their money, we have to do our due diligence, our risk mitigation, it's very standard stuff. Um, so they're comfortable with where we're at. We're ready to push it forward. As as Mr. Mud says, um, we're extremely excited about this. Um there's been a lot of hard work from everyone involved and so we're very grateful to be at this spot and you know any other questions you have be happy to answer.

So you it's it's it's all been raised a lot of it's our own money and our own partners' money. Um the the debt side is actually the bigger piece being 70% of of the total capital and that's been um committed to as well um by Wall Street you know banks and stuff like that. So I have a question uh pro for Mr. Mud and Mr. Small. Um the LA I know this is phase two two and we met last time on phase three.

Uh and it it came up traffic was a big issue for me and I understand there was a traffic study being done. Was that traffic studying going phase by phase by phase or is it looking at the whole big picture?

Phase by phase. Um the first phase which was um uh shops at Hartford Mall uh had a traffic study done. When um residences came in, they submitted a separate traffic study. And then when phase three came in, it was a separate traffic study. And the reason behind that is that background traffic changes. Uh so each time they have to recount those same intersections which I'm sure is frustrating to them. Um but that uh accounts for um any you like I said any background changes changes any new development that happens in the area uh is would now be included in that uh the most recent traffic study

and and and the one that has been submitted for phase three has not been approved as of yet. It's gone through several um u iterations, but both the state and the county have not commented on the latest version of the traffic impact analysis. And I understand that's not part of what we That's not part of what you do. We are allowed to give our opinion. Yeah. C can I just add one thing to that just in case it's not clear. When the phase three traffic study came in, it accounts for the existence of phase two and assumes that that traffic's part of what's going to happen as well. So, it's not I have is the gateway intersection.

Um, my opinion is that should stay four-way.

Uh, due to the the entrance that's going to be in phase three now coming into the shopping center on Upper Bolton Street near 24. Uh we talked about it in the last meeting in phase three, but I I missed this completely and uh when I was I I really didn't look at the apartment because I wasn't involved in that when you was voted on. So when it came up with phase three, I didn't look at the apartment and realize that gateway is no longer going to be a four-way, which has a traffic light. And I I felt that'd be safer if they kept at a four-way entrance and then you do away do away with the left turn coming in up at Bolton Street and just make it an exit out of the mall.

I think it still remains a four-way. Still what? I think it still remains a four-way. Can you Yeah, I thought we talked about that last time. There would that was the only entrance on the street because it it don't really show it as a roadway on the drawing. There's another entrance that is is being closed with this phase which is right above coming from the uh sight to sight. Oh, the one in the center that goes into um Best Buy. Best Buy. Yeah. Okay. That's the one that's going to be closed then. Correct. That one gateway will remain open. Correct.

Now, that one will retain the light, but the light will become a flasher. So, it's it's no longer a signal anymore where it because yellow flashers for the through traffic and red flasher for anybody exiting the uh uh the center.

Well, that's good to hear. I hope no one uses the entrance up at Bolton Street because I think after a few accidents occur, they're going to police department's going to want that shut down. I'm almost guarantee it. Just my opinion. I uh been sitting here a long time. Not tonight. You weren't too bad as to keep it short.

And we have routinely approved extensions. I can't recall a single request for an extension that we didn't approve. um that would that alone would not be a good enough reason to vote for an extension, but that's one of the reasons. Um I will point out that the u in the original approval um something we knowingly put in was uh condition number six that uh 50% of the area will uh total project will remain commercial and we did that because we didn't want it the whole place over there to become an apartment farm.

Correct. And uh so phase three kind of makes that it's still a valid consideration there but that has now been met as the numbers are are already there. Um you referenced uh the process of uh you were fortunate not to be here for the original uh three public meetings and lots of u public input. U most of it frankly was opposed. Uh most of the opposition really though had no bearing on no no connection to the comprehensive plan or to the development ranks that the town and that this body is governed by. And after the three public meetings we we uh in the cool of the night and it was a very cool night. It was January the 4th. Um we did u approve this project and uh it's not surprising that it's u given the complexity of it uh lots of process lots of negotiating and working out significant details it's not surprising that it has moved along especially when you're I think understandably trying to coordinate um certainly with phase three and maybe even to some extent with phase one. So, uh, with all that in mind, um, I'm going to propose that we support I'm going to move that we, um, extend the January 4th, 2024 approval for CDP North LLC for one year uh, ending uh, January 4th of 2026. Seven

seven. Is there more discussion? I good. Thank you all so much. Thank you. I didn't have my microphone on, so hopefully they heard that it was heard you. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good stuff. Keep the slakes.

All right. Excuse me. Excuse me. But the meeting is still going on. So sorry. Thank you. That's okay. Kevin it is really pleased for you all. Thank you for everyone. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Do I have a move for the adjournment of the meeting? All those in favor. All right. Thank you.