Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. It's time to call this meeting of Belair Planning Commission to order in this on this Thursday, June the 5th at 6 PM. My name is Lois Kissinger Kelly and I currently chair the planning commission. We have the following agenda for this evening. The first will be the approval of the minutes from our previous meeting on May the 1st. The second will be a review of a 3,300 square foot restaurant and nail salon to be constructed at 102 North Bond Street. This is a continued hearing from May 1st, 2025 to review specific requested information and changes to the previous submission. Following that will be a review of a special development site plan and landscape uh plan application for a 20 82,924 square foot shopping center consisting of a restaurant retail and grocery store uses to be at Bair Marketplace LLC to be located at 600 Baltimore Pike. And finally, there will be a review of an ordinance to establish short-term rental uses in the town. These proceedings are audibly and visually recorded and streamed on YouTube. The link is provided on the agenda posted on the town website. Each item will be presented by the planning department. Then the applicant will be provided an opportunity to present their case and answer questions from the commission. Following the conclusion of the presentation, the public may make statements or ask questions. All questions must be directed to the commission. Please come to the podium to speak and

state your name and address clearly so the recording personnel can accurately record the information prior to offering your thoughts and comments. Speak into the microphone as I'm trying to do right now. Hopefully you hear me um loud and clear enough for all to hear. All speakers from the public are permitted three minutes maximum unless you are representing an organization and then you will have five minutes. As an alternative, if you like, you may submit written information to make made part of the record. Please do not interrupt any speaker. Everyone will have an opportunity to speak. The restrooms are down the hall to your left. And at this point, would you please silence your cell phones? Tonight's meeting was advertised and posted in the local paper and letters were sent to adjoining property owners. So, as I said, the first order of business is the approval of the minutes from May 1st, 2025. And I have one correction and that is on page six, second paragraph, it should have said board of appeals. Fifth line down. Are there any other corrections to the minutes? Evidently not. All right. Do we have approval? Second. All those in favor, please. I I I. Mr. Small, will you please present the next item on the agenda? Thank you, Madam Chair. Next item on the agenda is a continued hearing for uh 102 North Bond Street. Uh that is um from the May 1st planning commission meeting.

This application again was reviewed uh by planning commission on May 1st and the applicant was requested to revise the plan, site plan, landscape plan and architecture based on concerns outlined in the attached letter uh to your package, but it's also been posted. Um the initial request was for approval of a 3,300 square foot one-story commercial building to be constructed on a 15,000 foot lot in the B3A general business gateway district. Uh the uh and this for a restaurant and nail salon associated with the restaurant use. A special development for outdoor dining was proposed and a waiver for stacked parking was also requested. The proposed building will contain a 2200 foot restaurant and a 1,100 foot nail salon. And I'm I'm not going to repeat some of the items that were on the previous staff report just to go straight to items that are under consideration. Um so that 2200 and 1,100 uh square foot uses uh require 22 parking spaces and uh the developers propo proposing 23 spaces um access from Alice Anne Street with stacked parking arrangement. So that's the part that you'd have to provide a waiver for. Um, the original site and landscape plan dates should remain on the plan and a revision dates added, meaning they can't keep the same date. They got to note that this is a revised plan. Um, and if it gets revised again, they got to add another revision date. 16 of these spaces again are proposed to be tandem or stack spaces. Section 16551F1E allows the planning commission to approve stacked parking provided

there is no adverse impact on the use or on the circulation within the parking lot. The building footprint has been moved away from North Bond Street uh rightway 7 ft. Um this revised location will match the setback of the adjacent historically designated property at 108 North Bond Street. However, no adjustment was made to the setback from north property line as noted in paragraph D4 of the architectural consultant comments. So, uh that's something that you would need to consider whether or not that needs to happen. Uh the staff believes a 4ft adjustment probably so to make it a total of 10 feet off of that north property line might be appropriate. The revised site plan notes three existing spaces nearest Bond Street and two proposed spaces west of the proposed site entrance. It assumes it assumed all of these will be metered once there is uh no indication. It assumed all of these would be metered since there is no indication regarding the relocation of meters. Um, based on staff review, there are seven existing parallel parking spaces along Alicean Street, including five metered spaces. To be clear, and this is something that was noted by the applicant, these spaces are not to code. They're not big enough to be uh to code, but that doesn't matter in terms of the proposed development. They're changing the spaces. Whatever they propose has has to be to code. Um, a small adjustment is needed to relocate the parking to match. Does that mean they're too small relative to code? As they exist right now, they're too small. And then what would the their obligation would be then to make these smaller spaces larger and you end up with fewer spaces in the same spot or they have to correct? Yeah, they can't revise the spaces and not provide spaces

that meet code. So the spaces have to be 20 feet long. So seven seven spaces conceivably could become five spaces. Correct. Might you increase the volume please? Certainly. You are you saying you cannot hear me? Correct. Okay. All right. Was there also an issue with how close that parking ended for vehicles to be able to pull out? I thought there was an issue with that. Yes. Yes. the the the amount of spaces that uh or the the location of the spaces relative to um uh the bond street is closer than what the spaces are across the street. They that part of it is about three feet too close. Um, so what the applicant needs to do is to provide spaces that are uh within code. You have to be 25 feet off of the uh intersection and you have to and the spaces have to be 20t long. They also have to be and I'll get to this talking about this is that they have to be 8 feet from any access point, any driveway. Okay. Thank you. Um small adjustment again is needed to relocate the parking to match the spaces to the south side of the street. Uh notation is needed to show where the meters will be relocated. Two non and I'm referring to the ex the submitted plan. They have submitted revised plans and they'll provide those and talk about them. Two non-meter spaces will be lost to the development or possibly one will be lost to the development depending on their

new design. um which the planning commission can approve. Uh it's the lo whenever there's lost meters that requires town board. Um the applicants consultant u did not speak with public works to coordinate on street parking and as was required in the attached continuence letter. In addition, the spaces are are shown approximately two feet from the each side of a proposed site entrance. They have to be eight feet. So, they'll talk about their adjustments that they've made. That's not in your package. That is something that um they're going to have to describe to you. Um the um following site elements are recommended for removal. Concrete walk on the north side of the proposed building. Now, this is something that was that I put in the staff report, but it's being explained to me that one of the members of the public requested that. I'm not sure what the purpose is, but that's uh one of the items. Uh access to the refuge recycling on the west side of the enclosure because there's two access points. I'm not sure why you would need two uh and adjust the proposed storm drain pipe alignment to miss the existing trees along Bond Street, meaning one was going right through the middle of a tree. It doesn't need to. It can go in between. Um the applicant has provided um several colored elevations of the development that indicate a revised version of the proposed architecture presented on May 1st. You have comments from the uh architectural consultant in your package. The um new elevations will likely be proposed tonight uh and for your review. Um and I did provide those to you a couple of days ago via email. Outdoor dining is proposed at the corner of North Bond and Alisan Street associated with the restaurant use. The exterior dining capacity cannot exceed

27 seats. That's 75% of the interior seats. Performance uh standards found in section 16553i 2I uh restrict have several restrictions of which I think in their profered uh performance standards they agree to. Um staff recommends that in a a adjusted plan that they graphically show the locations of the tables and chairs on that final site plan. Um landscape uh is fine except for two additional shade trees are shown along North Bond Street. They really don't need to be there. We got enough trees there. Uh and the staff is suggesting those be relocated to along Alisand where there's a open location. Um section 16545B2 which relates to woodland areas and unique vegetation applies to this part property and nine additional trees are required to satisfy the code regarding the removal of specimen trees on the property. Um they don't obviously have room to do that. So they would have to they're proposing fee and loo. I have a list of recommendations but those may again change. I did provide to you a a copy of the code section related to the need to review to have to have in front of you the latest review from the architectural consultant for the town. You don't have to follow the architectural consultant's recommendations but you have to have it in front of you according to that code. So with that I will turn it over to that would be perhaps condition on the movement. I think that the missing piece for him for the consultant is the movement away from the north end of the property, right? Yes, that would be one of them. If you made that requirement, we would need to if we well, but we we're not seeing his

they're they're presenting hopefully something to accommodate that tonight and then he would review that which he hasn't reviewed it yet. So, and we're we're duty obligated to see his comments whether we follow them or not. Correct. Okay. The only way that you could uh just bracing you for one more continuence. The only way that you could uh adjust that or or do something different would be if you agreed with what they submitted to you and that you received a week ago. that shows that would be counter to what the architectural consultant has recommended. All right. Yep. All right. Uh Tom Miner, Frederick Board Associates, 5 South Main. Um so that's There we go. All right. Um all right. So, uh this is a continuence of the prior um prior month's meeting. Um you know, following up on Kevin's uh Kevin's review, um we've met a good chunk of the requested items. Some of them we uh need to do a little bit of additional work on. Um and or have some additional uh comments as it pertains to the architectural uh features and changes that we've made. um going through uh some of the items. So the stack tandem parking um we're again showing that it was noted in the last meeting to have addition more signage. So we have signage shown um noting where the tandem parking is um and it's employee use only uh along with um

having it striped out uh on the uh on the parking lot as well. Um to kind of go in a little bit with the parking spaces, we we're providing one additional parking space on the property. Um that to a certain extent somewhat offsets the uh removal of the one space that's off the part uh property on Alisan Street. Just saying that we're meeting co- compliance and then we're additionally kind of making up in a certain way that parking. Can you do any Oh, sorry. I thought those got handed out. We started with some color to make it more interesting. So zoom in here. All right. So the additional eight stack the eight stacked spaces are going to have signage um along with uh being striped just so it's easier to see. What what page are you? Sorry, this will be on in your slide deck. That will be page well it can be shown either on page two or three of the slides there. You're looking at the site plan. It's a little small. Um,

so it's not in this packet. Who was it? So the second page, thank you. Sorry. So for the on the second page, we're showing the parking. So this is the the revised items um we did for this this submission. So, um we're showing some st tandem parking spaces um there along with striping and signage. Um and just to kind of tie that into um the uh on street parking. So, we took a look at the on street parking just to kind of see how because we were noticing that when we became compliant, we were losing a space and um the on- street parking ranges from 16 foot long spaces um up to code compliant spaces, but even the code some of the code compliant length spaces that are 20 feet or greater um they're also not they're closer than the 8 foot minimum to an entrance. So, all that being said, once we add you add those shy distances in from entrances for um uh for site distance, uh same with the location of um the last parking space, the metered parking space that's uh near north bond. There's only one space that's actually code compliant. All the rest of them um are either far too short unless you're driving a Mini Cooper or something like that. Um go to page four. Sorry. Yeah, it's on page four. And that's the existing conditions. Gotcha. Okay. So, page four just shows the existing conditions with that 11 by7. So, I'm not sure the breakout magnifying glass for some of that. Um but uh we're so we're just showing that the spaces that were previously there are not code compliant because of

either the distances from c certain intersections or the widths. Um when we bring them up to code compliance providing the 8 foot distances for site distance from the from the entrance um along with that would be the next page. The next page sorry on uh so the next page shows the code compliant uh location our location of our parking. So uh we provide the five metered spaces along with the one one non-metered space and as we meet all the various requirements we then incidentally lose a non-metered parking space um to basically gone from seven spaces currently to six. Correct. But that is why we're losing a space is to provide the the code required spaces or code required uh widths, lengths, all of that. And you're you're aware that there'd be some uh process that would include the town board and the meters and so on. So we're not removing any metered parking if they're removing it, which they're proposing not to. Correct. So we'll keep the five metered spaces. Good. Good. Good solution. Excellent. Yeah. So, I just wanted to explain why we were leaving that important things to do than um so that that all stays in place and we're bringing it up to a better condition than when we when we started. Um uh to make up for it, there is one extra parking space in the parking lot. Um obviously, it's not, you know, on street shared parking. It's a different type of parking, but effectively we're, you know, we're kind of keeping things in a similar state and in general compliance or in compliance. So, that's um that's kind of a description of the uh on street parking and the adjustments we're making there. Um, I know that was discussed and recommended to have um a

entrance very similar to the hardware store next door, which is um a depressed curb entrance without the fillets um returning. And that's kind of how we've we've adjusted that on the entrance as well. That was a comment that we wanted to make it closer to um a the standard detail uh for um for I guess it was Harford County standard detail. So, um we'll make those type of revisions as well as we go into engineering on the plan. Uh we did talk with DPW following um uh following Kevin's report. We thought that was supposed to be had kind of after for final site plan approval. We didn't realize that was needed prior to planning commission discussions. Um so we did talk to them. Um Charlie was found that what we were doing was acceptable. He didn't seem to have any issues with it. So, um, we've emailed them and provided this information. Um, and we haven't had any negative, um, comments accordingly, the the parking or sorry, not the parking, but the uh sidewalk um between uh the historic building and and our property. So, that was a discussion um between the neighbor uh and us. So his sidewalk is fairly narrow and he would like to have a little more integration between his property, ours, the connectivity. So that was that was the reason why we have that sidewalk there. It was between it was an agreed that that would be best served for both parties um and provide some good connectivity. The other part too is is that the nail salon the front the front door is where uh the nail salon is going to be accessed from. And so what we were trying to avoid was having patrons come in and have the walk all the way around the building as well. So for us it's beneficial for the neighbor um Wayne he

requested and wanted it. So um we thought that was a good agreement between both parties to kind of have that uh pedestrian connectivity on the side of the building. I'm confused. Sounded like they wanted to eliminate the sidewalk. Everybody's everybody's good to keep the sidewalk. Correct. We're we're good with keeping the sidewalks as we still show it. Okay. Are you talking about the one in on Bond Street? The one the one between our project and the the property to the north. Will there be a sidewalk? Because I didn't see a sidewalk on Bond Street. On Bond Street going along Barn Street in front of the restaurant and the nail salon. Unless I missed it on the drawing. I didn't see it. The the building is completely surrounded by sidewalks now. So, there's an existing sidewalk on Bond Street. There's a sidewalk along Alice Alisand Street. And then there's a sidewalk obviously servicing the back of the property when it comes to uh the parking. And then to the north of um the building between uh us and the historic building, there's also sidewalk. Okay. Where are you on this uh on the matter of the few feet um recommended by the consultant and we we're going to relocate the building four feet down to provide that 10 foot requested space. So we're we're we're good with that request. Good. Excellent. Um so sorry. No. Oh, sorry. So, uh, we're also removing, uh, the the sidewalk, um, connection. Um, as Kevin had noted, uh, there's two connection points. Uh, we'll be removing that, um, in the next revision. Um, and, uh, the storm drain alignment,

we are cutting through one of the trees. We can add an extra um, structure and just relocate the storm drain and we don't have to negatively impact that tree, so it has to be removed. Um so uh all in all pretty minor revisions from a site plan perspective you know some very minor movements tweaks to kind of re further refine the plan. Um when when it came to the architectural comments the really the summation of it was this is what we had submitted uh first page of the package. Um we had made the revisions as noted except for one of the items uh the black uh on the building we were partial to it. However, the architect uh in their most recent comments did want it to be a uh a lighter shade. So, we've pro provided that in the I guess it's the second to last or third third or fourth to last sheet um of the set has a a more cream colored. So, we're going with a a cream tan color to it. So that is the only change between what we had submitted previously and uh what the architect is now going to be reviewing for the the next revision. As noted, expecting it to be tabled for this month so we can kind of have the architect have the the review comments and then proceed on to for next month. I find the uh changes aesthetically very pleasing, very nice. I appreciate the uh cooperation with the extra four feet there. It's we talked last month that it's a very uh sensitive to the not only the historic building to your north, but

to the historic, although not designated, historic church behind you. Looks good to me. question for uh Kevin. Um the stack parking uh is okay as long as it's not uh does not create a negative impact on use and circulation. Your professional opinion is that I don't really like stack parking but it's really your decision. But but notwithstanding your bias against such things and our and our need to have more of this rather than less uh do you think that it creates a negative impact on use and circulation? I think with the changes to the stenciling on the pavement and the signs that will be there um it will mitigate a lot of what would the impact would be. Great. Thank you. Uh, same thing. We talked about this at the last meeting about the stack parking and I'm I'm not a fan of stack parking. I went to one of the neighbors that you're going to have up there uh that uh two weeks ago and parking wasn't too great and I went to park in the stack parking and people were taking up both spaces because they didn't want to get blocked in and I wound up parking in front of a truck that was in the back part and I I was like my granddaughter says pop how's he going to get out? I'm like, hopefully he's an employee here. And I don't know if he was or not. I came out. It was still there. And I got out, but uh the other person was still taking up two spaces. And I I saw that you're going to put signage. I think that's good. Uh but what how will you control the people in front of your employees, those cars in the stack parking?

So, I would hope they would listen I would hope they would listen to the signage and the striping. Um, we can add chains to the front of it if I know we've discussed that. Um, yeah, we talked about that, too. I'm always a little reluctant to add additional obstructions because someone's coming in and out uh trying to back up. You're just asking for more damage to vehicles. It just kind of being a pain. Um, preferably, I mean, this is a very small building. It's owner owner occupi occupied and operated. Um, you know, the the operations here, the people that are coming that are working there are going to be working a shift about the same shift that the it's open for. So, they're going to be coming in before and leaving after for the most part. So, um, the concept is it really shouldn't be negatively impacting. Additionally, this is it's only a few it's not that many spaces. So, um, if there is someone blocking and because of the type of use that we have here, too, which is a high high turnover type use, people are only going to be into a f restaurant or a nail salon for a half hour. So, that's that's at least our what we believe would occur operations. So even with the times overlapping, the employees uh in the nail salon will be leaving in plenty of time for the employees for the restaurant. I mean, won't they be overlapping? So So the employees the amount of employees for the nail salon and the amount of employees for the f restaurant are going to be approximately seven, maybe eight depending on So there really isn't going to be an overlap to that far as staff levels. you're looking at three maybe four nail salon employees, three to four restaurant employees um for the size of the operation. So there's really no need too much for overlap um in in the operation. So we're not we're not really

expecting even when they're kind of both full, they'll be utilizing that that rear space. I didn't and have you laid out the number of um tables and chairs for the outside? I think that was a requirement, wasn't it, to show that it was on this latest ST uh staff report, but they would have to do that in their final version. In the final version. And what is this? You know, I I see the three doors, but what is the indentation here on this side? Over here. Uhhuh. So, just a part of That's Bond Street, right? No. No, this is where the historic building is. That's the side of the historic building. Oh, okay. Sorry. And they do have to they can't go over 40 feet without providing some type of architectural. So, yes. Okay. Thank you. It just helps break up the facade so it's not just a straight wall. Yeah, I I agree. I like the change and the brighter color. U looks very nice. Other questions? Yeah, one more. Uh, it's it's not related to parking. I saw that you are adding a handicap on handicap space. U I take it that the building's going to be handicap accessible. Correct. Okay. Um, I assumed that. Um, one more question I really had was uh within this document uh from Frederick Ward uh it states in uh 165.53.1 under outdoor dining down below were guidelines. Mhm. It talks about uh food service errors will be from 9 to 9. There will be no alcohol for sale at the

restaurant, but will be permitted to be brought in by customers. Is that misprint or is that true? That's going to be an operational question. I'm going to have to defer to Danny on that. Sorry, apologies. And just a reminder to state your name and address, please. Yes. Uh Danny Win um 102 North Bond Street um basically is for um whoever the customer like to bring their own alcohol they can but we don't serve it ourself the alcohol does that have to be approved by the liquor board that's a liquor board issue yeah but most likely because it's just Vietnamese noodle soups. Soup is not really the type where people sit around and drinking, but we're welcome for some wine if they like to. But from my knowledge, I never seen anybody who go to a for a noodle soup and sit there and drink wine. So, but I I would welcome anybody like to have sit there and and bring their own alcohol wine, you know. That's why we have that on there like that. Okay. Thank you. Yes. You were consenting to allow the town uh the planning commission to continue this hearing to next month. Is that correct? Well, I mean if if you guys h um have to, but I would if possible we can have it today. I would love that. But you know, but just to be clear is that they if they delay it, it's going to uh

create a problem with the code where you're automatically approved. Okay. Um I don't think you'd have a problem with that. Well, it's either So, this is the procedural conundrum you're in. Okay. The planning commission has a choice. Either you can continue it until next month or they can deny it tonight. If they deny it tonight, you cannot come back for 12 months. Understand? Okay. Yes, ma'am. So, do you want to continue it, consent to it if that's what the board decides to do? I guess we'll do it for next month then. Okay. Yes. Rather than next year. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I am I am correct that we're obligated to have Mr. Edme's review these changes that seem to meet uh what he's already requested and it's part of the plan that we're receiving tonight but that's our duty band obligation to hear from him at least whether we follow him or not. Correct. Yes, that's correct. Under the code it requires that all architectural renderings be sent to the town architectural consultant. the consultant has to give you comments and you have to receive it before you can you can say nah I think it's mine or no I don't like it or you can make the ultimate decision but you have to at least have the comments in front of you before you can make that decision speaking just for myself I'd be ready to approve you right now but we don't have that option you're leaving it open for a challenge telling us you understand okay July the 3 we should have that option So, aside from the walk along the north side of the building, is there any comments that you're taking exception to? Yep. No.

Can we go Can we go back to the walk on the north side of the building? Sure. I don't understand. I mean, they're providing a sidewalk. Um the owner of 108, they're happy with the sidewalk. So what's what's the problem with the sidewalk? Uh when staff was reviewing it, we went out and visited the site. There is a walk that goes along 108 North Bond. We saw it as being redundant. I don't have a problem with the sidewalk stays. I just it didn't seem to make sense to me. Well, 108 has their sidewalk for their their use and 102 is going to have a sidewalk for their use. From a from a property standpoint, I don't know that that's a problem because 108 change of ownership could say you can't use that site and then they're out. Yeah, it it is not something I have a big problem with. It was just looked redundant to me. the I think we're going to be removing that other sidewalk um once we install that sidewalk. The concept is we're going to have a shared sidewalk there. What we didn't want to do was show that other sidewalk removed here because then it kind of somewhat sucks in the other project on a technical basis. End of the day, it's we want to have a commute shared a shared aspect to things. So that leads to another observation. So because of a shared sidewalk, both entities will enter into an agreement of some sort of limited easement saying that either property owner can use their sidewalk depending on what side of the property it's on. Correct. But that would be all private. I mean there's other accessible points all around. So that's that's between we'll work that out between but you you are correct and that's why it was negotiated between the two parties because it was Yeah. Since it's not required by the town, there's nothing we need. That's fine. We were trying to

keep it hopefully simple. That was the goal. Was the uh buffer situation resolved because I didn't see a really a change in the buffer behind the building to the church. Was that discussed any further in the design? I know it's not required, but we can requ Yeah, we we there is a buffer show. I saw it. But is it little bush? I can't I can't tell if it's a real buffer because you're going to have cars back there. The employees are going to be parked there all day. And I would think like a fuzzy green fence or something. Decorative fence would be better than shrubs that are going to take 10 years to grow up. Um I I don't know how tall they are, but it's the buffer isn't required. They're providing I mean has anybody has the church been consulted or do they need to be consulted being neighbors or they've been u informed that this was happening? Uh so if they wanted to have a comment, they would have to show up. And depending upon the shrubbery that you're putting in there, you know, things can grow very quickly too if you and depending on the size that you put in. Correct. I personally like the idea of a shrubbery versus a fence. Well, I do too, but it takes a while for shrubbery usually to grow up. And my experience has been to make our neighbors happy. I've always put in fuzzy fences, you know, the decorative type. Not the cheap ones, the nice ones. Look good. Looks like grass on the fence.

Okay. Yes. Are there is anyone in the public wish to speak to this item? Good evening everybody. Uh Wayne Gddard, 108 North Bond, Bair, Maryland. I just want to speak to the uh the sidewalk that Tom was talking about. That was my suggestion to put in a wider common sidewalk. And the way that it would probably be accomplished is um Fred Ward would do a survey of the area between the two parcels and we would enter into some kind of easement agreement because my thought would be to try to make it look like a uh a brick sidewalk or something aesthetically pleasing because the sidewalk that serves my building is pretty narrow and it's not going to be at the same height as the sidewalk on my neighbor's building and we were just trying to to uh put those together. In addition, with respect to the alcohol people bringing that in, I feel fairly confident in saying that that's not going to happen. The liquor board's probably not going to approve that. Um, at least not for the next couple years. So, I I don't have any real concerns about that. I agree with your comments that the architectural improvements are moving in the right direction. Um, there's still some improvements that could be made, but keeping in mind that these are renderings, not the final construction drawings. I'm sure that Fred Warden Associates and I can can work on it. I'd just like to see a few more brackets and corbals up at that sophet, but it's it's definitely moving in the right direction and I think that it's a good use for that that parcel. It's pretty much the last undeveloped parcel in that corridor. It's a revitalization district that we're trying to pump a lot of money into to try to create energy there. I think it's working what what's happened so far and I think that that the uh Tom's clients will be a great addition to the neighborhood and I look forward to working with them. Thank you. Anyone else? Anyone else wish to speak?

Do I Do I list my home address? You said address. Yes. Your name first, please. Yeah. Uh Dylan Daniels 1318 Salonica Place. Uh I like the black. I think the black looks great. It might just be me being younger or whatever. No offense. Don't mean any, but like it looks sleek. I like the black. But anyways, I I think it looks good. Yeah. Great. Thank you. All right. Is that Are those the only comments? All right. Ready for a motion? Move that the application for 102 North Bond Street be continued. Second. All right. Uh Mr. Hines, yes. Mr. Ro. Yes. Mr. Coats. Yes. Mr. Slair. Yes. Chair votes I as well. Thank you. Thank you. We'll get to the finish line before you know it. You have a you had a better proposal this month than you had last month and next month's will be a slightly better one. It's a journey, not a sprint. You need break. She just needs a minute to open up a new file for the next case. Yeah. Absolutely. Heavy.

Stop here. Do you know how to get back in? How do I get it? Like it came out of the page. Oh, thank you. Hey, Chris. Do you have a business card on file for her?

Mr. Small, would you please present the next business? Thank you. Um, and I'm going to do the same thing I did with the last one because this is like a 12page uh staff report. I'm going to over a few items. It's um Bair Mall or Hartford Mall phase three. Um the applicant is requesting site plan and landscape plan approval to construct four buildings totaling 82,924 square feet of commercial uses within the project area of Harford Mall. I I don't have this on the staff report. I want to be I want to be clear. There is no residential uses proposed as part of this uh request. This will be the third phase of redevelopment for the mall which is a uh a alteration to the existing mixeduse center and requires a modification to the existing special development approval. The proposed project is re is reviewed in aggregate. So all parcels and buildings within the Harford Mall project area must meet the criteria for a mixeduse center. The performance standards uh for mixed use are attached to your application. The first two phases shops at Harford Mall and residences of at Harford Mall uh are approved and are not subject to any amendment or revision by the planning commission. Those are approved projects that cannot be adjusted. The existing mall project area encompasses several buildings including the shops at Hartford Mall near Tolgate Road, the former Macy's furniture store and the mall itself and the uh residential uh development which has not yet been built. The current building

area of the Hartford Mall is 40 496,337 square feet of commercial space and the 249 multif family dwelling units that would eventually be constructed. The proposed demolition of the Macy's building and part of the mall amounts to 172,228 square feet and the application proposed to add back 82,924 square feet of commercial use. So when that basically you look at 496,000 uh and you uh have an area that's going to be a demolished uh of 172,000 and then you're going to add back the 82,000 you end up with 47,033 ft. Condition of approval for residences Hartford Mall uh requires that a minimum of 50% of the total development must be commercial space. The space utilized by the previously approved multif family use is 264,120 ft. The proposed development will result in 367548 ft. So that provides a minimum of 58.2% 2% of commercial space which satisfies that condition that previous condition of approval. Uh that also satisfies a change in code that was uh put forth by the town board to kind of enshrine that requirement for all mixed uses relative to their land use designation. When the interior corridor space which is 48,888 is removed from the total mall space the areas the total area uh that is rel that is required for parking is 447,449 square

ft. So um a portion of this corridor space will be demolished when the Macy's structure is raised. So you start with 47,000, you take out the 39,000, you end up with 367,548 square feet. And that's what has to be parked. That ends up to be um a code requirement of 1,286 spaces. The proposed development is going to uh and that 1,286 spaces is 3.5 spaces per thousand square feet of of uh commercial area. They propose 1,475 parking spaces which exceeds the requirement requirement by 189 spaces. Phase two, residential approval required for uh required the abandonment of 3 34,37 square feet of commercial space within the mall to in order to meet minimum parking requirement at the time of its approval. Development of the third phase will will render this condition moot because when Macy's is demoed, it will be and and additional space is brought back. They're the difference is more than that 30 34,000 square feet of commercial area. So however that condition must remain in effect until the demolition of Macy's occurs as part of this phase three south side of the building uh and um go back the the the mall meets the handicap space requirements. There is a on the south side of building 100 there is spaces that appear to be shown as handicapped and what's been described is they're really not handicapped. They're relative they're spaces that are uh

assigned for pickup and delivery whatnot. So it's not really that just needs to be corrected. Um 1.54 acres of on-site open space was approved along with $176,500 payment of a fee and live for the remaining acreage. The applicant has exceeded the on-site open space with the proposed modification. So they had 1.54 with the last approval. They have more than that now. Pedestrian connectivity was a major concern of the concept review committee meeting. Some additional pedestrian connections and areas are shown on a red line of the site plan which is exhibit A attached to the back of your U staff report along the east, west and pedestrian corridors will and and that connection uh needs to be strengthened in staff's opinion. Um, and that will assist with creating comfort level and overall uh benefit the overall development uh and allow for safer connections between the buildings. Crosswalks. Several of the cross crosswalks shown appear to lead to landscape islands that don't really have a receiving sidewalk. So, I'm just trying to understand why they're there. Um, so that's something that the applicant can address. Um some of the refuge recycling enclosures in the in the middle of the parking lot are not buffered. Uh do note that the uh the architectural consultant did note that that the the um these seem to be in odd places. So it's something that again the ar the applicant should address. Um, also noted is a concern regarding the 30-foot width of the main north south vehicular connection. Right now, what you have is

right in, right, left in, right in, right out on one end, and then you have a right in, right out on the other end, and this is the connection in between, which is shown at 30 feet wide. a little bit of a concern that there might be speeding and cutthroughs and so I'm that maybe narrowing that that lane maybe even by just a few feet might help with that uh reduction in speed. Um let's see more details needed if the applicant intends to acquire special development approvals for outdoor dining. Uh, in addition, the applicant may have future designs for anticipated pedestrian linkages that are not shown on the submitted site plan. Staff recommends the adjustments be included in this submission and then they can be revised in later submissions if future development allows for it. In other words, you're you're seeing um connections shown on the pedestrian connection plan that I'm sure they intend to do, but it's not part of what's being proposed on this. And if they if something happens where they they go bankrupt, uh we want to make sure that these connections are provided in this phase three. If if uh another one comes along that adjusts those and provides the connections in a different way, fine. That can be revised at that point. Does that make sense? Um previous approvals, I've just outlined those requirements. Uh, one of the concerns that staff had was whether or not they're moving along fast enough. They have started construction on their off-site improvements at Bolton and Gateway. Uh, and they paid the open space fee in Lou um for the uh uh previous approval. The applicant has submitted a

landscape plan for review. Uh there are existing trees located located along the rightway within Maryland Route 24 uh that will create limitations to the required street tree planting. So in other words, they have these trees that were planted on the 24 rightway that are like right on the rightway line. So they're really close to their uh property line. So instead of trying to plant something that kind of just creates a conflict, we marked up on exhibit B an ability to just kind of plant trees in between the the other ones. That way you've got a a clear edge and the u number of street trees are are satisfied. [Music] Um major uh see some in addition to street trees some revisions um to the interior parking lot will be needed uh planting uh parking lot planning or recommend based on adjustments to the site plan again noted uh in the exhibit A. Uh two uh locations are noted on the red line. The rear facade of building 200 and the rear facade of building 600 have plantings shown in the architectural elevations which architects love to show trees in front of their buildings to make them look cool, but there's none shown on the on the landscape plan. So just there's these are not required for uh by the town but it's just a conflict that we just want to see the applicant address. Um the uh parking is well landscaped. However, a slight adjustment to the location of proposed utilities would allow for in additional interior trees as noted on the exhibit B. So very slight adjustment to the water lines and sewer lines. All of them are proposed. It's not like there's a a problem with that. It's just

making sure that they can be engineered correctly. Um plantings around the proposed refuge recycling enclosures are also required uh in the code. Uh enclosures should have notes regarding height, color, material that match the architecture. So if we're going to have enclosures that got a code requires they match the architecture. uh and a detail for a typical refuge recycling enclosure should be added to the plan submission. That is something where we have particular requirements relative to a pedestrian door u and want to make sure that those are somehow profered. The um minor substitutions are recommended for the plant list. Nothing really major. The applicants provide color elevations and renderings of the proposed architecture for proposed buildings. Comments uh from the town architectural consultant are attached to your package. Should be noted that as users are identified for each building, any desired change in site or architecture will require a new review by the planning commission. In other words, you have these square buildings that are out there. They're kind of placeholders. Um they're going to have somebody come in and they're going to say, "Wait a minute. we want to put our building on there, their prototype and then it's going to change the footprint. It's going to change the architecture, you need you'll need to review that at that point. Now, one thing that I don't believe and I've talked to the town council about, there's not going to be a requirement at that point. If somebody already has an approved plan as part of this proposal, this request, and they want to come in and and basically revise that, there would be no need to look at the rest of the center. it would only be the area that they're changing. So there's no mixeduse uh special development. It just goes they're just looking at that one

particular change. Um comprehensive signage plan is reflected in the chart and a map attached to the application. Directional signs within the interior of the do not count against the freestanding sign limit since they are preferred for wayfinding purposes. Review of anticipated traffic impact from this development is ongoing in coordination with the county and state. We're still waiting on comments from both. Um however, pedestrian improvements to the intersection of Tollgate Road and Baltimore Pike will be required as outlined in previous comments for phase two. That will be a requirement of this phase. um business US1 and Maryland 22 multimodal multimodal corridor study commissioned by the town and county will also be consulted as part of this review. So there's that may or may not be required at this phase but it is there are improvements along one that uh will be reviewed. Mixed centers are a special development must meet performance standards as outlined in section 16553 I2G. Um, internal vehicular and pedestrian traffic must be designed to minimize conflicts to mitigate potential impact to patrons or residents. And that's where we get back to that 30 foot wide uh road. Security loading, unloading, and recycling refues must be organized between the owners and coordinated with the town. Development agreement was executed between the property owners as part of phase two. Um, and uh all previous conditions of approval for phase one and two still apply. Now this um master plan that was provided to you and that was at your request um is illustrative in nature and it's does not obligate the the applicant to any future designs and I'll let them decide or tell you about and explain

what they they intend to do. There are some changes that I put on a red line with your pack uh when you sat down today. Couple of things that were left out. I do apologize for that. First item is making a um a a u consideration or provide a consistent consistency consistency determination regarding the comprehensive plan. Is this consistent with the comprehensive plan? So you have to answer that. And then I've got three additional conditions to the site plan. One is approval of a public amenity required in section 165118E by the cultural arts commission and submission of receipts for the amenity. Provision of a cost estimate and associated architectural performance agreement and bond to meet the requirements of section 16532C4D uh regarding the the east facade of the remaining Hartford Mall. That's something I didn't explain before. The shops at Harford Mall when it developed it demoed right up against the uh where Sears used to be. So it had this kind of blank un uh blank wall that does not have any architectural uh interruptions or insulations whatever. Uh that is something that is required by code and that needs to be done. But they're eventually like they're likely to demo the mall. So it makes no sense to make an investment and then demo it. This would be the same thing. When they demo the the U mall, they're going to leave a blank wall there that will that doesn't meet our code. But since the mall is not long for this world, there's no we're going to require a bond to make sure they do what

they're supposed to do. But that's not something that um uh we would feel you would want to make them do now. Um let's see. And the last is a coordination with the Bair Police Department regarding security and surveillance measures within the mall property based on an email dated May 28th, 2025. In other words, the one of the biggest um police issues in town of Bair is retail theft. Um we have we do try to do a really good job and I think in some ways the people go other jurisdictions because we're pretty good at it. But um it is something where you know people run into a store, grab whatever they can and and run out including the uh type of surveillance that our police would like to see. It should be a coordination between the mall developers and them. So that is all I have. I know that took a long time. Sorry. Oh, thank you. Good evening everybody. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Okay. Great. My name is Christopher Mud. I'm an attorney with Venal LLP. My business address is uh 210 West Pennsylvania Avenue in Talson, Maryland. U and I'm pleased uh and really excited to be here tonight to to present this. I'm also excited since we've all been sitting here. The Orioles just wrapped up their second straight sweep. So, they've won six in a row. Pretty pumped about that. Uh, but I'm primarily excited to be here for this transformational project, and I hope you guys are just as excited to review it. Um, I'm here on behalf of SJC Ventures, who is the contract purchaser of a 10acre portion of the Harford Mall that we're here on tonight. I I passed out a slide sheet that has about 30 pages. Um,

and I realized after we put it together that I should have started three pages in. So, if you I'm turning to that page now to begin and then I'll I'll backtrack to the site plan. Um, so, uh, we're here tonight on what's shown on the screen here is phase three and, uh, SJC is, uh, they're an experienced retail and mixed juice developer headquartered in Atlanta. They've have dozens of active projects uh or have had dozens of active projects both completed and ongoing in the Mid-Atlantic, in the Southeast, and in the Midwest. U they were founded in 2007, and uh they've entitled and developed over 60 properties since their existence. They were the developer and purchaser of what you see on here as phase one um of the mall property that has already been redeveloped on the southern side of the property. That's the location of the forthcoming Amazon Fresh and other users that exist there now. Um, and SJC is now the contract purchaser of what we're calling phase three. This is essentially the existing Macy's building um, at the mall. Um, and actually what is shown here on phase 4 is also under contract by SJC. We are not here tonight on phase 4. Um, but we we hope to be here quite soon on that phase. um we left it out of this particular proposal for a number of different reasons, but we hope to be back soon on that. Um and SJC is also intending to partner with the current owner of the mall, who is CBL Properties, on the areas that are shown as future um on this site and likewise look forward to coming back before you on those sometime in the future. With me tonight uh from SJC are Mr. Matt Robinson and Andrea Smith. I have Tom, Mr. Tom Miner and Caitlyn Pierce from Frederick Gordon Associates and then in the back is Mr. Mark Keley who is with Traffic

Concepts. Um so kind of digging into it now this slide that we're on uh you all I know that this has been through um a couple of times or you've seen it a number of different ways and um you probably understand by now that it's a very complex project. Um there are different components, different owners, different developers, different uses. Um and market demands and timing are um they somewhat dictate the need to be developing this piece by piece. It's not always possible and frankly not really typical when you have a big transformational project like this that you're lucky to have one developer who may undertake all of it. You might need to bring in different people with different expertise and that's what's happening here. And when different developers are involved, each one may move at different paces. Um, and frankly, the complexity of the development of a different type of product um, might take a different amount of time. It might take longer to build a bigger building and a smaller building. So things move at different paces and and then adding to the complexity is the world of leasing. Um, you take concepts like this to the market and you want to attract the best users in the market. The good news is that we are in fact attracting those highestend retailers. SJC is attracting those highest uh end retailers, restaurant users to this property. We'll talk a little bit more about that um as we move through. Um but the consequence is when you get some of these great users, they make demands on delivery times for things um for buildings and they frankly dictate how developers need uh to process things and to deliver a project. And so all this really dict dictates this phased approach that we're taking here. Um and what we're bringing in portions of a larger project at one time. Um it's a it makes it complex, but that's what's dictating our delivery. Um, and we've come to understand, uh, as I've gotten involved in this case and as we've heard more from you all and others

who have been looking at this project in total that, um, it's difficult for everybody to look at this phase by phase and not have an idea of the big picture. And we get that and we sympathize with it, which is why we put together what you see before you. Um and and so this image and the underlying part of it, not necessarily the phasing, we'll repeat it in different ways and different times throughout this presentation, but it's meant to help you picture and envision how phase three, which is crucial to the overall project here and the delivery of the overall project, um h how it's going to fit into the overall picture. And I hope that I'm able to help you envision that tonight. uh when we move ahead in a few slides, I'm going to go backwards first, but then we'll move ahead in a few slides, we'll see this master plan image in cleaner form, and we'll talk more about it then. Um, and this sheet here is really just meant to show the phased approach to the overall master planning of this mixeduse center. Um, so this shows what we're looking at, the two prior phases that have already been approved. Phase one here, which has been approved and and constructed. Phase two here is the residential, which is fully approved. Um and phase three which is what we are here on tonight which is a shopping center um with retail and restaurant. We'll talk about that more shortly. Um and then phase four would be two additional pad sites um that we will be back on in the future. And then future of course is uh where the mall where CBL and SJC will hopefully partner in the future on uh future phases there. So, I'm going to go back uh to the first sheet in your in your book or the first sheet after the um after the opening page. Uh and this sheet is the phase three site plan. Um as submitted, what we're looking at is a 10acre site. It is

a 82,924 square foot lifestyle center. Um I I should mention and uh Mr. Small mentioned this is uh this the mall property has been previously approved as a mixeduse center. When the residential came through, that was the residential component of the mixed juice and the retail component of the mixed juice at that time was the mall. And we're here today to essentially amend the Macy's portion uh for purposes of updating and redeveloping the or a portion of the uh of the commercial part of the mixed juice, the shopping center portion. This uh and I'm going to use my mouse here a little bit. This is broken down into five buildings and they're numbered. Um, and I'll talk a little bit about these numbers as we go through building 100 right here. This is a 35,684 square foot uh this is where the high-end organic grosser um is to be located. I know this is somewhat shrouded in mystery. Um, and I think that that while I'm not at liberty to talk about that mystery here, there are rumors out there about it. And anyone who wants to take out their phone and look at SJC's website and look at the last 10 projects they've had approved, you might unlock and uncover that mystery. Uh, building 200, which is here on the corner. This is really a marquee corner at 24 and 1. This is a 14,015 square foot retail, restaurant, and outdoor dining uh location. Um, I should mention that all four of these buildings on the corner, and I'll mention it as I go through, they're all proposed to have outdoor dining, and we'll talk a little bit more about that later. Um, building 300, which is over here on the upper left side, is a

16,444T retail, restaurant, and outdoor dining building. Building 600 which is uh on the bottom left here is an 11,175,000 sorry 11,175 foot retail restaurant and outdoor dining building. And then building 700 finally on the bottom right is a 5,600 66 foot retail restaurant uh and outdoor dining building. Um Mr. Small talked about the parking and the fact that all of the the uses in gen uh in total both in what we're proposing here the residential and the additional commercial um all generates a particular amount of parking spaces and the amount of parking that's being provided is sufficient. So there's no parking variance or anything proposed um in that respect. Um you'll notice the design here uh for this particular use has direct connectivity to Bolton Street uh on the west here and route one on the right and there's really a spine road that runs right through and Mr. Small talked about this and there's some comments that we addressed in the red line as to the width of that spine road but that's meant to provide direct connectivity um into the site from two main veins outside of the site. Uh once you get in the site it's kind of a tra traditional grid pattern. There's three different ways to get into the center with your vehicle. Um, one through uh in this location here, a second one in the middle, and a third one here. Uh, we also have a generous and intentional pedestrian connectivity into the site from offsite. We'll talk more about that later with some imagery. Um, and I should also note and mention, I'd like to note and mention that this is intentionally designed to orient all of these buildings along the adjacent roadways um for the building architecture. And there's green spaces that are going to be the things that people are going to get engage with as they walk and drive by this site. And that enables the parking then to be

interior and really shielded from the the exterior um uh roadways and exterior properties. who were looking in. Uh we'll talk more about this later as well, but loading and service areas are amply screened. There were some comments about uh the the dumpster enclosure here, and we're going to address that as I make my way through this proposal. And then the last thing I want to mention, and it's tough to see in plan view here, I'll go back and show you just so you can picture it, but there's a mural that's proposed um on building 100 that would face out towards 24 and really towards the corner. So when you look here on this opening image, this this mural here is really in plan view. Oh, I'm but but behind me here. Oh, the arrow's here. Sorry, you can't see the arrow. No. Okay, how about I do that? I'm tall. I'll do that. Okay, so that's It's just a rendering, but to my understanding, there never was any sulky racing at this site. It was all flat track racing with real horses and jockeyies, no carts. All right. Is that everybody else's recollection? So, just I'm glad you I'm glad you picked up on the imagery because we're hopeful that that might become part of the future identity of this place, but we'll make sure to get it right for sure. Looks like a good rendering. If you just had a horse and a rider and would be could always paint Elsie on there, too. I tell you what, if if the cows, if that's the only condition of your approval tonight, we'll take it. That'd be great. We'll probably probably come up with a couple. Okay. Understood. Understood. Um Okay, great. So, I know I'm kind of laboring through this, but hopefully you all bear with me and I'll um as we I promise all 30 slides won't take nearly as long um as I'm talking now. So the second sheet uh the second sheet behind the cover

sheet in your package here is the redline plan. So this plan was prepared by Frederick Gordon Associates in direct response to the staff comments from Mr. Small. So Mr. Small gave exhibit A in your staff report and we took exhibit A and we uh we believe anyway um implemented the changes that he requested on exhibit A and I'll I'm going to describe them for you and try and show them to you a little bit here. Um, so first of all, the drive aisle that we were talking about in here, uh, is was originally proposed at 30 feet and this revised version takes that down to 28 ft. And I think you heard Mr. Small say tonight that hopefully a couple feet of reduction would would discourage people from racing through. And we certainly agree and it was a great comment and we've implemented that. We're implementing that on Thomas Street right now. Trust me. Yeah. If you feel enclosed, just long enough. Um, before we move on with that, sure. Any any chance of thinking about putting roundabouts in that'll slow things down as well? So, versus versus a true intersection, right? You know, yeah, on the main dragon. I think the way I would answer that now is maybe. And the reason I say that is because the divider between um the spine road phase three above the spine road and what future below, we don't know exactly what the future holds. So if the design of the future and the demands of the future allow for something like that, then it might be a possibility. I think what we wouldn't want to have happen, I know roundabouts can take up a significant amount of space. So it might reduce the ability to deliver, you know, the best quality buildings if we end up doing that. But it's it's certainly something worth I'm just thinking roundabouts, doing it on a blank sheet versus once you have phase three done and then you come in for phase four and you're trying to put a roundabout in just again. Okay, just observation. Great. Thank you. Speed bumps. I'm sorry. Speed bumps

proposed. I didn't see any on the drawings. I don't think any speed bumps are proposed at the moment, but it's certainly something that we can look into as well to reduce the speed for sure. And and one way to do that, a natural way to do that sometimes are the raised uh crosswalks actually. So, the places where pedestrians are, you raise them at least a little bit, then it it provides some measure of slowing down as you approach them. Just so I'm reading this clearly, the what I guess is existing parking spaces at uh Bolton and 24 that will be not parking spaces. All your parking for this is going to be interior, right? Right. So So you talk are you talking in this corner up here? Yeah, that's where phase four is going. So that's the future location of phase four that won't be parking up there. Not when when we come in in the in the future. There will be parking to serve those uses, but not exclusive parking field. Correct. There'll be two buildings that will be similar to these out outward facing. Right. Yes, sir. Um so, um one other one other thing that Mr. Small mentioned and I'll point to it here up there. Um that's the location of where the original plan showed uh um handicap parking um ADA parking. And that was not the intent. And what the intent is is what's shown now, which is a place where people with this top-notch uh organic groceryer can call ahead or go on, I guess probably on the internet, order ahead. Um, and then you're get a notice that your packages are ready. You show up, they tell you to pull in slot three, you pull in slot three. And so you see a lot of uh like hatched red there. And that's to provide ample space for the employees to be navigating if someone wants it in the back of the car or the side of the car. It gives the ability for that. So, it's a it's a a grocery pickup location. Um, one thing I should mention too is that when we start changing things like the width of a drive aisle, the parking lot starts to

change. And a couple of other changes that we have um relate to things that you see. If you were to compare this to Mr. Smalls exhibit A. Um, in this location over here, there were comments about changing the way that the uh curb islands orient to the road. And in this location here, there was a proposal to make a curb island wider and uh or um basically landscape island. I say curb island, but a landscape island. So, all of those changes contribute to why you see so much red. It's not actually a significant amount of changes, but when you start changing the parking field and making those adjustments, showing it all in red is is better than showing uh well, you'd have to show it all in red because all those things are moving even if even just a couple feet. Um, one other thing that we did, and we'll see this we'll see this better. Um, but in plan view, this the dumpster enclosure, there's one dumpster enclosure that is interior to the parking lot. Um, and I'll show more later, but the the the there are two there are three dumpster enclosures total. One in this location, one behind building 300, and then one in the middle of the of the parking lot. And I'll again, I'll talk more about that um as we make our way through, but Mr. Small correctly pointed out that that that there was no room to screen the enclosure that was in the parking lot. So, we've now added curbing and landscape islands around that so that it can be adequately screened. And you'll see imagery of that later in the presentation. Um, and I think that pretty much covers the There were also some changes that were made as Mr. Small requested relative to um to the uh crosswalks and pedestrian connectivity. So, the crosswalks are in some in some locations reoriented a little bit. Um, and so, you know, we we'd like to think and hope that this uh redline plan has adequately addressed the comments of Mr. Small and other staff members. I know he's

gathered comments from others and placed them nicely in a in a staff report for us. Um, so we're back to this phasing plan. Um, and I'm just going to go to the next one which shows this this popup of phase three. And this is kind of going to dictate the cadence of how we're going to go through today because a big part of what we wanted to try and do and make clear to you all was that as you approve phase three, which is really all we're here doing, you're looking at that and our compliance with the code for phase three. But in the back of your mind, you're you should be and probably are wondering, well, how's this going to fit into the rest of it? Are we going to approve phase three? And then what? Um, and our hope is even though we're not, as Mr. Small mentioned, the area that's shown his future may not look exact and almost certainly will not look exactly like this, but what we've done and what we'll show you is that this has been designed in a way so that it can fit seamlessly into the the eventual future phase and you hopefully get a big picture. So, I'm going to be uh showing you some imagery that bounces back between these two uh these two types of things um or these two types of images. So, the next slide are the applicable regulations. And this is really just picking up a repeat of the information that is in um the staff report. I'm I'm not going to go through all these regulations. And in fact um the the thing I want to mention is that most of the regulations that you see here on this sheet um relate to site planning issues. So um you know from our perspective Mr. Small and and others who reviewed the comments that or all the comments provided it and synthesized in the staff report for us are evidence of the ways in which our plan complies with all of these regulations or the way in which they did not comply. Hence the comments that we had. So now um we are submitting today and and and hope that you agree um and it may not end today um

but we hope that as we make our way to a final plan that we can demonstrate that we've satisfied all of these site planning related uh regulations. And I with that um on the next sheet um and I didn't I didn't label this at the top and I should have but what you're looking at here are all of the performance standards that relate to a mixeduse development. Um, this is section 165-53. And I I won't do the rest of the letters and numbers, but this this comes directly from that section. And for our purposes today, we wanted to present on the basis of our compliance with these performance standards because frankly, a lot of these standards overlap with the standards in on the previous page. If you were to read through a lot of these, you'll see a lot of the same concepts that come through here. And we fel we felt that presenting from these performance standards would not only demonstrate compliance with the performance standards but will uh direct directly respond to all the other uh ways in which we comply with the requisite ordinances. Um and then this sheet again uh is going to form our cadence. Right? So we're going to see this in different ways as we make our way through because we're going to go through point by point. So the next sheet you see is demonstrating for you how we are how we are addressing uh subsection A of the performance standards related to a unified arrangement of buildings, service areas, parking, signage, and landscaping. Um, so we're uh we're now into and I'm I'm going to I'm going to skip ahead here, but back to my cadence point, showing you how and I'm going to talk in detail about it, but showing you how we're complying as to phase three and then how uh we will comply as to the overall uh as well. So, this is what I'm labeled as slide eight. It's the eighth sheet behind the the front page. Um, as to the first performance standards, we

think that our project uh clearly provides a a unified arrangement of this project. It's it's self-evident from the view here. We have an intentionality in having the buildings buildings oriented along the outer edges of the property and keeping the parking internal and screen from view. And the outward oriented design and the complimentary grid-like pattern on the interior provides for a neotraditional shopping center experience where pedestrians and vehicles are drawn into the site easily um and they can easily orient on foot um across generous sidewalks and crosswalks or through the ample and numerous drive aisles to get to the destinations around the center once they're there. This is designed with the hope that someone may come to the center for one specific purpose and be lured to stay there um and easily get around there once they're there for hours more. Um and future sides will depict depict architectural details and signage and other uh other points to further drive home the achievement of this performance standard as to phase three. Uh again with the overall master plan when you look at this um again this is not in its entirety technically before the commission but we want you to understand how this same functionality can carry through into the future. Um we have the same ability to make vehicular connections and pedestrian connections all through uh and it's a very intentional design and we want you to understand how phase three works in the overall context of this project. Um, next performance standards relates to architecture, site design, lighting, signage, and they have to have an uh incorporate a consistent design and theme. Um, and material in materials, massing, facade design, and so forth. Um, I'm on sheet slide 11, as I call it. Um, and this is what we're I'll refer to as a materials board. I don't have a board before you, but it's meant to show you in the middle uh the four types of

materials that are going to carry and repeat generally throughout this project. Um the two images on the left we actually submitted at the request of Mr. Small to show how the materials that we're using um that is the residential project that's approved and you'll see numbers that are on the facades here. So number four 21 those are meant to correspond to the numbers of the materials. So to help you understand what you're looking at on the building and importantly to help you understand that exactly what's going to be placed on the apartment building is what you're going to see on the commercial as well. Um one comment we did receive from the architect I noticed in the package was that he asked that the uh developer consider adding brick. You'll notice that brick is not part of the four things here, but brick is shown on the the residential project. And it was actually intentional for the developer to not include brick um on on the commercial because they wanted the residential to stand out on its own and have a different pop. That's not to say that if other people want brick that we wouldn't impose brick, but that I just wanted people to understand that it was intentional and they're certainly willing to go back and and apply brick if that's something that the commission wants us to do um with the architect and with Mr. Small. Um as I mentioned, the two images on the right are meant to show you um how the materials are applied in the commercial. What you're looking at here is building 100. This is the uh the grocery building. Um and the bottom image is again um the view from Route 1 and and 24 with the wrong types of horses and uh on the mural, but you shows how the materials are on both the interior portion of the project and the exterior portion of the project uh as well. Um the next slide the intent there will be to have the front and the back uh of

these structures both have the appearance of being front. Absolutely right. So you know it's a challenge for the these uh retailers that you on these neotraditional designs you want to push the buildings up to the streets but you you you don't you don't want people who are driving there to be going into the back of the building. So the solution is to make the back look like the front even though people might not actually have access to it. So, it's going to present like a a storefront um and have activity in that way, but the actual people who are going in are going to be going in from the parking lot side of the building. You see a lot you see a great deal of green space. Yeah. Around, but when you flip to be inside the um area itself, I do not see the the nice green space. Yeah. So, so there was a that was a a comment that we've received before or heard before. Um, and I think that the thought process there again is uh we're we're putting green space in places if if we were to not have I guess the best way to say it is we thought it presented best to be the green space oriented with the exterior world as opposed to people who got there. So it's it's meant to be visually uh attractive from Bair. If the buildings were moved forward and you apply the green space inside, that's fine. But then you have buildings much closer to the street. I think that was essentially the design. I don't know whether Matt Robinson may have a different way to respond to that as well from SJC. Uh Matt Robinson, uh 11:15 Halill Road in Atlanta, Georgia. But yeah, um thank you for your comment, Lois. As far as the interior landscaping is concerned, I think that was a comment that came up in the first meeting that we had with y'all. I think we we had addressed that in the site plan that we present here. Um, you know, if we want to go back to to the color plan. Oh, is that Oh, it's up and down. Okay. Oh, sorry. The other way. There we

go. Can we Well, actually, so we had we had some in here. So, the way in which we've incorporated the green space or excuse me, the landscaping in the interior site is along the pedestrian walkways uh to make them a more pleasant experience as you're walking through. Uh if if there's additional green, you know, landscaping that you guys want to see, it's something we can take a look at. But as uh Mr. Mud mentioned earlier, we wanted to orient it around the center so that that draws people in. And once you get in the center, it's the retail activity that really brings that energy and excitement and concentrating the the landscaping on the interior center along the walkways. Uh that was the intent. But I was I think the one the one thing she's looking at on that one screen shows building the building next to whatever the organic store on the corner but behind it we show green on that but that's really your storm water management. So that's you have the storm water management right there on the corner and that's the that's what you're representing on this picture here. Well, so I mean we can we can all we can also put the we can is it open storm water management or is it or is it closed stormwater management with green space on top? Uh I might need Tim. We need Tom Tom Miner on that one. Sure. So um I'm going to go back on the corner of one and 24. Oh up and down there. You had you had it right other way. Oh, you want to go this way? Yeah, we can go that way and just talk about the storm water aspects. So, so we have two microbios on the corner there. Um, we can landscape those pretty heavily. I think a lot of times when it comes to the microbi retentions or those type of facilities, there are limitations

sometimes to when it comes to trees. But no, I'm just saying so based on based on this picture here which shows the corner of this is one 24 you have all this green space here which is where your your storm water management is. Yes. So this storm water management is either uh open or closed. So I guess the question there is green. Oh, can people be walking on it? So is it green open? I mean is it green because it's closed and and sided or or grassed over and the storm water's underneath or is it an open storm water management where it be fenced in? Sure. So it won't be fenced in but it will be open. Um it'll be a planting bed. So, wild flowers, um, various bushes, um, and, uh, the limitations on those, the really the only limitations when it comes to a planting bed like that is we can't put trees in it. Otherwise, uh, we can landscape it pretty heavily. Um, but it won't be probably won't be just a sad. So, it won't look like this. Um, it'll look kind of like the what's right behind it, though. Um, with the flowers and the the shrubbery and and such. So, a little less just straight grass and a little more actual plants. I mean, so that's the I mean, if if if it looks like this, I don't see a big a huge problem with it. I mean, so I think I think from this perspective here for the for the uh where the storm water management is on that corner, if it's grassed and all that, I don't see a huge problem with that. If it's going to be open and fenced in, I may have a We're they'll be about a foot deep. This is about the depth that it'll it'll be running. So, it's not going to be a wet pond or any kind of wet facilities. What I was getting at and what I was hoping to see would be with these

restaurants, people like in the summer to eat outside. Sure. And I was hoping that once inside the mall that there would be enough green space there that they would could be able to have tables and chairs set outside. Yeah. And you do have an additional 89 spaces. Could you get rid of those and add more green space? I guess I would say it's something that we can look at, but I don't know whether it's something that it it's something we can explore. Absolutely. Um if if that's what you all want us to look at. Um Whole Foods I'm sorry I just let it slip. Strike that. Nobody heard that. Oh yeah. our organic grosser which is which is like Whole Foods if you're familiar. Um they do have a a parking requirement that has to be met uh for for the center, but I think we're still above that. So we can we can include some additional uh landscape areas within within the site. Um the to your point about the outdoor dining though, I think Mr. Small brought that up at the beginning. Um, in terms of, you know, you know, future uh, uh, submissions that we we might need to do, uh, we we just don't have any, uh, signed tenants yet. And so, you know, that is going to drive a lot of that outdoor dining experience. And so, how it would be, how treated, how it would be executed. And as as you point out, you know, a pretty common feature is is outdoor hardscapes and landscapes. And that will absolutely 100% be a part of the plan. One thing plus I mean all they're not all going to be restaurants. They could be the shop or right. So there there are each of the buildings um this may be the best place to see it. Each of the buildings each of

the sorry each of the uh non grosser buildings which is building 300 uh 300 600 700 and 200. They all have um plazas that are proposed for outdoor dining. So, I'm going to use my mouse. I wish I had a maybe I'll use paper. Uh one there along here, over there, and then in this area here. And they're all on the to be fair, they're all on this image shown as being hardscape. But without knowing exactly what tenant is going to go there, that is an opportunity where it might be greener or you have elevated planters. And I'm almost certain you would probably box it off in that way. So I think that's where there'll be a concentration of that type of an atmosphere for people who are going to be dining at those particular places. But each of the buildings is intended to have an outdoor dining experience. So as as a tenant comes to you and if it is a restaurant then they would have to come back. Okay. So, so I actually want to take one point for purposes of the presentation that there I think there's a chance that they don't have to come back to the commission given that this is a shopping center and there's language in the code which I haven't dissected yet with with town council but there's language in the code for shopping centers where they come back but they would come back for an administrative review with staff as opposed to the commission. Yeah, they there is an option depending on what changes are taking place. If somebody comes in and they just want to add an outdoor dining area because they're within an approved shopping center uh mixed use, they can come back and get approved administratively. But if there's other review such as architecture and site plan for whatever use is being proposed, then it's likely they would come back in front of you. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Thank you for the the questions. Those are great.

Um, so, uh, let me find my way back to where I was, the material board. And I, and I was just going to go through some more of these images just to show you. I'm not going to bore you with the architectural, um, details. Uh, but I did want to just make sure everybody on this page, I think we're oriented here. This is building 100 when viewed from, uh, sorry, building Yeah, 100 when viewed from Route One and 24. Can I can I interrupt you for a second? Go back one. Sure. I'm going to take over your Is that the architectural elevations that uh correspond with that rendering? Uh, yes. Yes. Okay. So, that's building 100, correct? Yes. Okay. A little bit of a difference there. So, I just want to make sure that everybody understands that. I don't see as much pretty uh awnings and whatnot there, but uh that's something to please make sure you take a look at. Okay. Um this is a a rendering of um in the foreground um on the right hand side is building 600. So we're we're here looking across the site in this location looking into the site. Um, and again in in the foreground you have uh this this sushi place and you'll notice the incorporation of uh of the of the block um and the and the stucco as well as actually stuck. This is block on this location. Um we have the black the windows uh with the glass door front and again the outdoor dining opportunity here. Building 300 um is in the foreground on the left. That's where the umbrellas are in the corner there. Um, and you'll see that there's corrugated metal in this location, um, and smooth

stucco elements as well as the glass storefront. Um, and another outdoor dining opportunity at that location, which I pointed out previously. And then farther back here, we see building 100 in the distance. And then, difficult to see here, but that again is building 200 further back on the page. And again, these are meant to show the harmonious materials throughout uh, the center. Next slide. Uh we have again buildings 100 which is here and then 300 on the left hand side. Um more evidence of harmonious materials there too. We see the smooth stuckco the block the glass um as well as uh uh the the black um compliments on the on the glass. Yeah. One of uh one of the architect's comments was uh to ask about the glass. What kind of glass is going to be used? Sure. I think that's one of the details that as each tenant comes in, we'll have to understand what type of glass that they're going to use. And I think he specifically was talking about the tinting of the glass and the glazing. Right. So, I think that is that something that each tenant you think will that's correct. I mean, the standard is going to be your standard storefront glass uh that we would put in. Um, but other tenants may request a different tinting to it, but not not very often. Um, I I can't really think of any tenants that have requested it in our last few centers. So, it's going to be a standard transparent storefront glass. If it is tinted, is that something that goes back to you, Kevin, or That's something that I think we would have to look at because I think there are restrictions on the amount. I mean, you can have tinted glass, uh, but I don't think you can. It can't be dark glass that you would see like AutoZone did. Like on Autozone did. Yeah. Yeah. It was one time it was clear. Nor would I think you expect to see that here. I think you're going to see a fairly harmonious,

but you want something inviting, right? AB. Absolutely. Yeah. Obviously, no mirrors. Yeah. Correct. Um, so I do I I'm happy. The only thing I'll tell you about these next few slides is that the building number, the the the architecture goes in order of building. So, we're looking at building 100 on the first one, building 200 on the second, building 300 on the third, building 600 on the fourth, and building 700 on the fifth. And I'm not going to play lawyer and run through architectural drawings, but we're happy to answer questions as we continue to make our way through or if you have questions um at the end for sure. Um to be clear, the enforcement here is the elevations, not the renderings. Correct. The renderings can say and do anything they want. It's the elevations that are enforceable. Right. Right. Thank you. Um this next slide we're getting into uh the performance standards relative to vehicular and pedestrian circulation C and D and we're going to address both of them together. Um and again you see this idea of blowing up uh phase three. So um this is meant to show the pedestrian circulation in blue. Um and then obviously the vehicular circulation uh is is part of the the gray that is here. Um but again we have uh direct noniruitous routes into phase three from adjacent major roadways. We have the spine road that I've spoken about before that runs through the site and can facilitate vehicular connection from one side of the center over to the other uh with minimal conflict. And I don't mean cutthroughs. I mean somebody who wants to come and if they know that they want to go to the organic grosser, they can come in and cut right in and get into the organic groceryer. if they uh want to get from Route One all the way over to the far side, they can take this spine road and go all the way over to

the third entrance and do that. And so it's not it it it minimizes conflict by having this spine road go through and it creates this grid-like pattern, but at the same time, it also is inviting for someone who may not be very familiar with the center because they can go through and navigate and make their way around to find whatever use they intend to find or may may be exploring and and uh and make their way through. and it we think it it presents a way to do that. And similarly on the pedestrian side of things, all the blue highlighting shows the the way in which we're really trying to invite pedestrians, bikers, and walkers into the center. Um we have uh you know, numerous corre connections right at at the front where someone can can walk uh through the grassy area and connect on a sidewalk all the way around uh building 300. um and similarly they could walk down route one and and come to the pad site that is uh down here building 700 and otherwise make their way further into the site and and walk in any number of different ways. We're really hoping to attract people who live nearby to bike and walk um into this center. And it it we also think that the the way in which these pedestrian connections uh come in as well as the spine road, it it minimizes the conflicts between the pedestrians and the vehicles. Um just before you go to the next slide, see where it says the has the numeral one. Yeah. Um, do you anticipate changes as part of phase four that would straighten out that road and therefore you would provide because right now you're not providing those uh pedestrian connections and in the future you're going to provide them. Correct. That's right. Okay. That's right. Yes. And I should thank you for pointing out the numbers too. The numbers are meant to show little vignettes where what what the pedestrian experience is like in each of those locations. And so where you see the number one on the bottom left, that's what the experience is going to feel like for people over here,

two and three, and so on. Um, and so we're trying to provide nice wide sidewalks and breaks between where vehicles are and pedestrians are so that they feel more comfortable in the pedestrian experience. Um, and again, next next slide, we we try and show how uh this seamlessly will fit into the future. I mean obviously phases one and two it shows the way in which you can connect into those. Phase one exists and phase two uh uh is is approved in this fashion. So it shows how people uh in phase two in the residential might be able to walk into the site and people walking around the site and it shows how this grid pattern can be continued when if and when we come not not not not if when we come in for future phases. um and how we have the opportunities to continue these these grid patterns through. And I think you can expect that while these buildings may not look, like I said, exactly like they're shown here, I think that you can expect that the pedestrian vehicular connections are going to be are going to respect the locations and where they are as to phase three. So, it's going to only be natural to want to make and continue pedestrian to be able to walk straight down this spine area and here and here as well. So that's going to help formulate the nodes and the areas where those buildings are going to be built um in the future. You mentioned bicycling to the site. Are there bicycle racks included in your plan? Good question. As I was standing up here speaking, I remembered that I asked that question of my team and I don't and I and I don't have the answer, but I think that there's an expectation that we're going to have bike rack. We can code will require it. We can Yeah. I just don't know where they're going to be, I guess, is my point. There absolutely will be there. Um okay. Uh moving on to the next performance standard. This has to do um uh with I got a question. Yes, sir. Yeah. Um I missed this before. Um

between building 300 going down to building 600 uh closer to uh the grocery store, which we won't name again. Yeah. Wouldn't it Wouldn't it be better to have another walkway going from between building 100 and building 300 coming down to building 600? Let me go back where the buildings are. Add another walkway is what I'm saying. So, you're saying, sorry, go back to where I have the building numbers. Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. Between building 100 and between 100 and 300 heading south down to building 600. Yeah. You would have to go all the way down to the end of the building and go down. Couldn't you have another walkway that's closer to the whole through a drive food store going down to building 600 in between? Yeah. That's a question of geometry and I don't know whether Yeah, that that that's something we can we can look at for sure. Um it it sort of um you know it sort of plays into the the phase four plan that we have which we were sort of designing it all together right but we're obviously here just on phase three um and how the parking work works across phases but we might be we might be able to squeeze in a walkway there. Let us look at it. Yeah I think that would be a matter of putting putting in a wider curb island between one of these rows of parking and being able to come straight down. So, that's definitely something to to look at. Um, Jimmy, uh, you're talking I'm sorry. Yep. You're talking in between the one and the two right there. A connection that runs between those two buildings. If I if I may, if I understand it, you

mean down down down here? Right there. Yes. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that that was clear. Okay. Yeah, understood. Um, okay. So, the next one has to do with uh with vehicular and uh service drives that are screened adequately from public uh areas and screened from public view. Um, this this slide, the next slide, um, is a little complicated. At least it was for me. Maybe you'll find it easier than I than I will, but I hope to be able to walk it through walk you through it. So, we obviously have five separate images on the page. Um, and you'll notice on the uh each image has a letter. So there's image A, B, A is at the top, B in the middle, C, and then D and E. U and I'm going to start with image C because this is meant to show uh essentially the back of house behind building uh buildings 100 and 300. So this is behind the grosser and the retail next to it. Um and interestingly, I'll just kind of jump to this. the the building that you see here on the far right of image C is actually um is actually from phase four. So it's kind of creeped into the imagery here. It's not really part of it, but we'll we'll uh we're showing you for illustrative purposes. Um, and so when we look at at image uh C, it's meant to show um and it calls out we have a loading wall on the left hand side and this is essentially the truck dock where groceries would be delivered to and from that grosser in uh tractor trailers. Um, so there's a loading wall, there is a screen wall, and then there's decorative fencing as you make your way across. Now, there's two arrows at the bottom of image C, a red A and a blue B. Um, and if you go up to the number A, that's where the red arrow is, and that's meant to show you

that what you're looking at on image A is what the arrow is pointing to on image C. Um, so you'll see here that we're paying a lot of attention to uh to heavy landscaping between the the the Route 24 and excuse me, the the walls behind. Mr. Um, Small mentioned that screen areas need to incorporate the materials that exist from um, uh, throughout the center. It needs to needs to be consistent with it. If we jump into uh, ex uh, image E, which is on the bottom corner, this is meant to show you without the landscaping in front of it what those materials are. So the loading dock wall has the decorative block uh and then there's decorative block also on the bottom of the um the screen wall and then smooth stucco on the screen wall as well. So these numbers that are on ex uh image E are the numbers that call to the material board page which I think was sheet 11. So if you were to look there you can see what more closely what those images are. Um, and then, uh, if we go back to C and we look at the blue D, um, and you look at, sorry, the blue B, uh, image B in the middle is what you would see standing on 24 looking towards where that blue arrow is on image C. And so we take image B, and this is what we're looking at, and uh, shift all the way over to the the letter D, which is meant to show in here the blow up of what that looks like. Um, and again, this is what we're looking at actually in image D is the back of phase 4, but this is meant to be illustrative for you so that you understand how things will be treated. So, this gives you an example of the decorative fencing, which uses the black uh aluminum material that corresponds to some of the awnings that you see as well

as the glass enclosures in the um the windows on the on the other side of the building. Um and then we also see importantly at the top um there are dash lines and you'll note in the image that these dash lines it says roof line roof line and then uh the RTU's beyond. So the roof line essentially means that if you're in the building that's where the ceiling is but the wall goes higher than where the roof line is and that's so that the all the rooftop equipment is going to be hidden from view. So every air conditioner or other piece of equipment is intended and will be behind that parapet wall. Um and of course that wall is is part of the building. So it'll be the smooth stucco material. So I hope this gives you an idea of the imagery. One thing other thing I'll tell you and I don't have an image of this but I'll just I can walk you through it. The the loading dock area um is is is higher. it it'll be the same level as the parking lot in here where a truck would would start to make its way to the loading dock. But as the truck would back in the the the ground gets lower as you make your way towards the building. So the lower loading dock sit sits below the parking lot. What that means is, excuse me, this loading wall um is about 12 1/2 ft tall um on the far right hand side and then it's about 16 and 1/2 ft tall when you make your way all the way back here from from the ground. So, as the truck is backing up and the truck height is about 13 feet 13 and 1/2 ft, um once the truck is parked behind this wall, it'll be completely out of view. So the truck when making its way with the screen wall would would be able to be seen but when it's parked there and loading and unloading completely out of view from from uh people on 24. Um the next image we have shows I'm sorry. Can you go back just one real

quick question for you? Yep. See where the red A arrow is? There's an opening next to the loading wall between the screen wall and the loading wall here. Yes. So, is that opening? Is there a reason for that? I don't think it's an opening. I think it just cuts back to the screen wall. Does it show what we're trying to to to keep is people tend to take a straight line. Yeah. When they're crossing route 24. Sure. You don't want to cut You don't want We don't want to have people cutting. It's a wall. It's just not showing on. So, it'll cut back as a wall. Is that the same thing where it says decorative fence? Same on the other side, right? Yes. There's a wall there. All right. Yep. Um, you know, sir, I mean, I'm not seeing it. Uh, the loading areas for the other buildings other than the the grocery store. They would load from the front. They're going to load from the front. Yes. The big trucks are going to come in and Well, I don't think that they're going to have Yeah. So, so as far as uh you know what we call our shops buildings, uh they they don't bring in uh big big trucks. They just bring in box trucks that are able to fit in in a normal parking stall. Okay. And the timing timing timing of those uh delivery trucks are restrictive. Yes. Yes. Are those things that you would put in leases? Yeah, we uh yeah, they're they're part of our leasing agreements. Um and it's something that we handle through our our property management of the center. Thanks. Um so, excuse me. The next image um is the dump to to show the dumpster enclosure. I mentioned before there are three locations where dumpsters are proposed. one and they're they're actually called out better on this sheet, but one in this location behind building

300, one next to uh building 600, and then this one that's in the middle of uh of the parking lot. Um so you may ask, why is there one in the middle of the parking lot? Uh and and it's certainly uh an understandable question and I asked the same thing. Um, and I think and I think the reason why is because with those two buildings in the location that they are outward facing to 24 and one, there's really not a great location to put them without being much closer to the pedestrian experience from and and off-site people um in as to those at those buildings. Number one. Number two, you would be having two dumpster enclosures instead of one. So, the thought process in doing this in this location was to have one central location um that would be easily reachable by all the tenants in those two buildings. Um Mr. small picked up on it right away and had great points about I actually did too when I was reviewing it myself that that the screening requirement the screening was not shown on um on the original site plan and so what you're looking at here and what this is meant to show you first of all this there is room shown for it on the redline plan and what you're looking at here um is uh an explanation of what that enclosure would look like. So um the the there are four different images. It's meant to show um uh image A which is the upper left. It's one of the side elevations. Image B is one of the side elevations. Image C is what someone would see from the front. And then image D is what what people would see from the rear of this enclosure that's in this location um here on the far right. And one thing that's important is that the enclosure is going to be fully

consistent with the materials of the other buildings. We again we call out the numbers of the the material board. We have the smooth stucco and the decorative block um on both the side and the rear imagery. And then number one shows corrugated metal. So the same corrugated metal that's going to be applied to the buildings is going to be applied to the doorfront here. So while yes it is a dumpster enclosure for all intents and purposes it's going to be very similar and look very much like a building itself. And to that point, the other two dumpster enclosures, uh, and sorry, and then you also note the the evergreen screening that would that would surround that dumpster enclosure in, uh, the three locations where it can be done, the sides and the rear. Um, the other two dumpster enclosures will also have the same materials. Um, the only difference is there would not be a rear because in this location, it would be backed up against the wall. So the sides would be the smooth stucco and decorative block. The front would be corrugated metal. And then on building 600 here, again, it's backed up to the buildings. So the sides would be uh decorative uh block and the the smooth stucco. And you know, it's important to note that the two that are applied to the buildings, I think anyone looking at them from within the center, it's going to feel like it's part of the building because it just incorporates the same materials. It's not like a chain link fence where you have screening in it. It's actually solid applied materials um in those locations. Um the next one, we're getting close everybody. I know I've been talking a lot. Um I'm sorry. Yeah, sure. Can you get closer to um Oh boy. Let me see. Do you know how to zoom? What do you want to look at? You don't necessarily have to. I um see where your cursor is right there. Yep. How does a pedestrian get around those?

Uh, I'd have to if we want to scroll to the plan. Yeah, that's a good question, Kevin. Yeah. So, yeah, we can look at that, Kevin. Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah. And I don't know how you guys treated, but I'll let you guys. Oops. Yeah, you're helping able to help me. Do you have another option? Oh, I was on the window. Sorry, I was in the view. may need to give up some space. Well, there are additional I mean, should we we've been kind of talking about things as we made our way through. Should we do we want to talk about it more now? It's purely up to you if you're happy with what they've met the the the code. Um I see difficulty with keeping vegetation alive out there. Um they'll be out in the middle of the sun with all the heat from the uh parking lot around them and they'll roach. Uh the um also it's just you really wouldn't want the dumpster right down like five or six parking spaces down by the patio if there's if there's outside dying. No, you don't. No, you don't. Yeah. The reason they're there probably don't even want them there because the reason they're there is so they can the the uh truck can get a straight on shot which the bottom one doesn't really get. The third one in that line doesn't really have a straight on shot. So it'll be somewhat difficult. Um I just think that that needs another look. That's if anything they should just double it up. Instead of going four wide, do two wide. Done. She can't I said if anything they should do two wide and do back to back two on one side. You could do back to

back, but the problem is is that you a lot of these would have to be serviced early in the morning where there's nobody parked on that back side. Um, another way to do it is to kind of do what they call sawtooth. And I'm sorry, I'm ignoring you. No, no, no, you're not. a sawtooth method which allows the the trucks to come in at like a 45 degree and access them uh and then back up and go. Uh yeah, they're going to lose parking spaces, but they got a time and I don't uh that's just my two cents. I would encourage the applicant to keep poking along with that between now and whenever the continuence continues and uh chat with staff. Sure. see if you can come to a good conclusion there. Yeah, that seems completely workable. Um, thank you. Um, so sorry, the next the next performance standards relate to signage. Um, and I'll try and zip through these. Um, so, um, the dots on this this sheet here, um, are meant to show where we're locating proposed monument signage as well as directional signage. So, um the blue dot um would show shows the example of the signage that's proposed at 1 and 24. Um and the red dot on the opposite side um at that corner there. And then the purple dots are directional signs. You'll note on the signs that they likewise incorporate the materials. We have the decorative block. We have the black uh trim that that that matches the aluminum on the inside. And then we have this brushed aluminum which is complimentary as well. Um, one thing I'll note is that um, you know, our we don't know exactly how construction's going to go forward. In other words, it may be that phase three goes up uh, before phase four is approved or maybe phase four is approved, but phase three

is ahead and it's moving on with construction. Um, importantly, whenever phase three proceeds, the the signs are going to be replaced at that time. So, the sign the red sign on phase 4 is going to be replaced at the time that phase three goes forward. And that's because it's one of the demands of our uh yet to be named grosser. Um and similarly, the next sheet shows how the signage can carry through again. Um and while this shows the future phase and the same same rules apply in the sense that we're not promising that the signs that are purple uh on the south side of the future in this location here are necessarily um going to be installed in those locations. It's meant to show you how we would envision it at this point. But the same thing applies that the blue sign at this corner would likewise be replaced when phase three gets developed if that happens before um the rest of the mall development or redevelopment comes through. Given their square footage, they can get one more freestanding sign. They have four proposed and actually five out there, but one they're removing one Sears one. uh and they can get one more, you know, at that point and that might be added at a later date. You would not see that because that's just that goes through uh planning. The 189 additional spaces uh that are not required, how much square footage is that? Uh is it five per thousand or 3.5? Yeah. Are you talking about You mean if Oh, you mean you mean how much square footage did you do you reclaim if you remove 189 spaces? 18 by by eight. Is that right?

Half an acre. So it it it comes out to about half an acre. Is that correct? Yes. So, seems like it would be easy to figure out another location for that dumpster area. Okay. Um, well, of course, notwithstanding the uh requirements for parking um they've got tenants that have an expectation of parking uh that's going to be reasonably close by to their facility, too. So, that's the balance of Yeah, I'll just jump in. We're we're happy to relook at the location of those dumpsters. Yeah. Uh it made the most sense to us um for the reasons that Mr. Mud explained. Um I know that there was maybe some discussion or comment about the perimeter of the site which we didn't feel good about because we also want to provide visibility into the center to you know so that passerbys can see the energy but we we're not wedded to that location. I'll I'll put it that way. Okay. Yeah. To to drive that point home, one of the things I think that we specifically looked at was to try and move it here. So the back of it would face the road and if you were to landscape it, it would go away. But to his point, then you eliminate the the idea of people driving by and getting excited about what's going on in there because you're blocking it out. Um, so but some something that we'll look at. And then in general about the parking, one of the things that we'll have to look at, and this is where the complexities come in at the beginning of my presentation, he mentioned that the grosser who shall not be named has parking demands. And so just because we're have these excess spaces from a zoning perspective doesn't mean that they can all go away. I I I'm pretty sure that that some can and we'll work with that for sure, but we may not be have the luxury of that. Um, and the sim same thing goes to attract some of the other tenants that come along, particularly restaurants. they may make

demands on a market basis that's different than what the zoning code requires. So we try and maintain some measure of flexibility for that purpose. Understand? Thank you. Sure. Thank you. Uh so the last three performance standards um I'm going to hit two of them quickly and then I'll ask uh Mr. Killy to come up. The first one about center management shall be responsible for providing on-site security service. That's absolutely going to be done. We heard about coordinating with the police which that will absolutely occur. it happens on every SJC site that they that they do. Um, and then our expectation too is, you know, if phase three opens up a year from now, um, and the rest of the mall is still there, we'll be coordinating with CBL on the security and and working through it. And and the same thing when that gets redeveloped, it'll all be one cohesive security package uh where the the owners of the sites will various sites and of elements of the site will work together on security. And then the last part um Jay when this mixeduse development was previously approved the the three parties who were involved SJC CBL and CDP a lot of acronyms they uh they've already executed a development agreement it's on file with uh town council so that element is taken care of. We have a development agreement that is um is ready to be um enforced when the time comes. Um, and then I'll I'll just ask Mr. Keely to make a very brief presentation. I don't I talked to Mr. Small before. Park uh traffic is technically not in a technical perspective before you all, but still want you to understand the work that he's done and the work that we're continuing to do with town staff, county staff, and state staff. Um before we move on to to Mark real quick, I just wanted to point out um the only thing Kevin and I talked about development agreement and yes uh council has been very cooperative and all the attorneys have there's what four of us now and um

to get the development agreements and the and the legal documentation. The only thing Kevin and I would ask for is the planning commission make a a requirement that in the event that we believe it needs to be amended that they would cooperate with doing so. I don't foresee that right now, but I don't know what your decision is going to be. We We will cooperate. I know you will. Thanks. Good evening. My name is Mark Keley. I'm a project manager with Traffic Concepts. Uh my address is 7525 Connelly Drive, Hanover, Maryland 211075. The traffic study includes eight intersections that surround the mall along US uh business US1, Maryland 24 uh North Tollgate Road and Bolton Street. Uh the background includes eight uh developments. Uh among those are the phase one and phase two redevelopment of the Harford Mall. So the residential portion is included in the study. The um typical growth rate 2.2% 2% growth rate is included in the study. The um the future trips were conservative conservatively um uh provided in the study um and and that is in two ways. Uh first um the study includes six retail buildings that um equals 94,587 square ft. What bef you have before you is the four buildings. That's 82,000 920 924. Yeah. 924. Um and then the second way it's conservative is that we did not take credit for any of the mall Macy's trips. So in other words, we

didn't subtract out traffic. So we're looking at this as a uh a new project. Um, so the study findings are that there's available capacity at all eight intersections and there's adequate queuing at left turn bays. Um, as Kevin said earlier this evening, um, State Highway is reviewing the traffic study as well as Harford County. Um, we do have comments from the town's engineer, traffic engineer, and we're working through those comments. Now, we I will say we will have to revise the study because we need to include the um the supermarket. So, that revision is going to be done and we'll have to resubmit to state highway, the county, and then to um the town's consultant. But at I can say that um based on our findings so far um we still believe there's capacity available at the surrounding intersections, key intersections. Um but that'll be brought out in the revised traffic study. Thank you. Yeah, I was just sir just curious is there any way to determine the amount of traffic that this is going to generate as opposed to the amount of traffic that the old mall generated. Is it going to be more traffic less? I don't know if there's a way that you can do that. Yeah, I mean I could I could take the square footage of the mall and use the it trip generation manual to I was just curious come up with some figures. They're not going to be completely. It would be projections. Yeah, it would be forecast projections. If you I could give you that information if you wanted it. I'd be interested. Yeah, if you could pass it on to Kevin.

We'd appreciate it. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. Thanks, Mark. Um, so, uh, this is the lasting image that we want to leave you with. Um, you know, this is the vision, right? Um, to take an outdated dead mall and to turn it into a thriving mixeduse center. Um, and I know the notion of developing in phases can be difficult difficult to grasp. Um, and we completely understand it and the push for the master plan was heard loud and clear and um, the SJC and CBL team got to work with that and the importance became clearer for you all to be able to see what the future really would hold here. And while we're only technically here on phase three, um we hope that we've demonstrated to you not only how phase three will uh satisfy the requisite or ordinance, but how approving phase three will help facilitate this master plan and enable us to satisfy the ordinance as to the rest of it when we come back. Um and this is I've been I've been doing what I do as a land use attorney for 20 years. It'll be 20 years in September. and I can count on one hand the number of projects that have gotten me really excited as being super transformational and this is absolutely one of them. Um you guys have a gem of an opportunity here and I hope you realize that. Um and I'm sure you do realize that and the importance of it. Um and it's a remarkable in particular you know what we're here on today phase three um for this tenant that we should not be named but did accidentally name. Um it's a remarkable opportunity to to have a tenant like that come to your town. Um it's the type of tenant that's a gamecher for communities. There's actually studies on it um about the way in which they transform communities and uh not not that it needs transformation

but bolster sometimes they can transform but really bolster and it would be a transformation of this site for sure. Um, but also when that tenant comes in, the best retailers follow them. And again, if you refer to SJC's website, you'll see these retailers that when they come here in restaurants, they'll be first in market restaurants. They'll be the only places in this region that exists because they follow that tenant to this spot. So, it's not like, you know, there may be a chain restaurant, and I'm sure there will be, um, but there also going to be restaurants you've never heard of and you're going to be excited about. Um, and I hope you you bear that in mind. You know, the importance and and I don't I don't want to be um too forceful in this perspective, but the importance of keeping this phase on track and us moving forward with a deliberate pace in order to be able to meet the demands of bringing a tenant like this, it can't be understated. Um, you know, we've enjoyed working with staff and we want to continue work with staff. Um, and we hope that you all are as excited. I hope that you all are as excited as I am. And as you contemplate your decision, um, you know, I want you to I'd ask you to give thought to this. I I heard the word continuence tonight, and I understand that I might be climbing up a big hill here when I say this, but I I will note that the staff report talked about recommending approval of the plan subject to certain conditions. Um, and I think in other jurisdictions where I've worked in, the conditions have been, you know, we want to see X, Y, and Z, and we want you to work with staff in order to implement X, Y, and Z. and I've been able to successfully do that elsewhere and staff can even communicate with the chairperson of the commission so that we get over a big excuse me we get over a big hurdle um of getting the site plan approved subject to those conditions and then we work on satisfying those conditions. So I know that I may be asking for a lot but I would ask you to consider that as an option as you as you undertake your um your review here

tonight. Um Mr. Small sec two other things Mr. Small mentioned um that we're here with boxes on paper and he's right and there may be changes in the future. Um and I talked to the town council about um how those changes might be received and whether or not staff would be able to review some of those changes as uh as modifications that would not require coming back to the planning commission. And I understand it'll be a case- by case basis. And we're not here on any of those. But I would ask you for consideration of recognizing that that may very well happen and recognizing that staff would have some measure of you know being deputized to be able to do that so that we as a great tenant comes along we're able to advance quickly those types of changes. Um and then the last things along the same lines relative to the outdoor dining there there is an expectation and I don't know if it's a guarantee but I think every all four of those buildings are going to have outdoor dining. what what it looks like, we don't know sitting here today, but we hope that that is another thing that we could work with staff on so that when those tenants come in and say, "Boy, we'd really like our permits in a certain amount of time." That we're able to work through it with staff um and uh and and deal with that as well. So, I realize those may be somewhat extraordinary requests, but I did want to I didn't want to let my presentation conclude without at least making them. Um and I appreciate your time and listening to me all night long. Thank you. before before you step down. Sure. Uh I'm going to hijack a little bit. Sure. The Well, before I do that, the in the the town code requires that any service area be screened from public view. Yes. And when I looked at your red line, I was looking for this area. Okay. That was the purpose for that little bumpout. Yeah. is that I

mean that's basically to um when I see this area it's just a blank wall. Sure. And it it's just something that I'm concerned. Well, right now it doesn't meet code and I want to try to make sure that if there's a reason why it doesn't meet code that that's the question about the wall or the the turning and landscaping on that side. Sorry. Which which well this is where that um where my cursor is is a service area. Sure. Yep. When you uh when this when phase 4 eventually is developed, you're going to have a develop or a user here that's going to look straight into that service area. That is not screening the service area for public view. So take a look at this, see what you can do uh because that's something that needs to be addressed. So, so currently the way we have it is so we can accommodate truck turning movements in that area. When we move into phase four, we will have to make some revisions to accommodate to that. Um, so if I were to take then you need to provide a auto turn exhibit on that because if I have a truck and I pull into here and I back in and I'm leaving, I don't need to turn the truck around 360 degrees. So, You need to provide an R turn if you want to make that point. We what we're trying to get away from is big expanses of pavement. Sure. And especially those expenses don't have a reason to be there. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Great. Mr. Mud, I had a quick question. Yes, sir. Uh I know you're confident that you're probably going to have four restaurants in there, but how much can those be subdivided? How many tenants per building? has three small shops in it. Is that possible? Is that something that's in

the plans or I am so sorry. Can you repeat the first part of that question in the buildings? Uh saying that you're feeling it might be four restaurants, but what if they're not restaurants? Can they be subdivided? Can they be shared with shops and restaurants in the same building? And how many subdivisions can you have in these buildings? Yeah, we we can we can go all the way down to, you know, call it a 1,200 square foot space, which is like, you know, 20 feet wide. It's really really short. So, the answer to that question is yes, we can subdivide, we combi, we can combine. Um, that's part of the reason that, you know, Mr. Mud has mentioned, you know, comments about the buildings might, you know, not not change a lot, but they might shift and move around a little bit and why it's important to, you know, be able to move through that process quickly. Um, because that sort of thing that you're mentioning, uh, Mr. Hines, happens all the time in which we have to combine and and, uh, or subdivide spaces. So, and just one question for you that I think may drive home your question. Um, I mentioned four restaurants. I wasn't suggesting that those were the only four tenants. I think the expectation is that the restaurants might be the endcap tenants and then there would be other spaces that would have retail. Is that right? That's correct. And and our our grosser also has certain restrictions about where restaurants can be. And so that's why those would be the most logical uh locations because they're outside of that uh out of that tenants restriction area. Um but yeah that we we we have restaurants and retail side by side all the time. Were we were you satisfied about the um proposed utilities that you were suggesting be moved? I guess so I think in the redline plan that that was in this area here if I'm not mistaken. Uh there's there was three

or four areas. Okay. Um can you just Sorry. Go ahead. I can bring that back up. Yeah. the um if you not where the blue is and I don't know if you folks can see that but on on a monitor there's a this portion here just needs to get adjusted slightly it's a you did it water line so so with the underlying utilities we hadn't Um it can be adjusted very easily. Uh we were focused on the actual visual site features. The underlying utilities might even you might even see in the red lines that the storm drain is still where initially was. That all gets shifted to accommodate the correct locations. The big concern on our part is sewer and water. Storm drain doesn't carry any anything most of the time until it gets raining. So the trees can be a little closer to that. What I'm trying to avoid here is several places where you didn't have trees because you had a water line or sewer line here. We're trying to adjust that so that you know while we're here and nothing's in the ground to be able to accommodate those uh trees within the landscape. Oh, sure. Yeah. So, well, I was going to say the So, all the utilities that main sewer and water line that's getting rerouted around where the Macy's was, that will be that'll be in the front of the road or down the main drive aisles to avoid all the landscape accordingly. Yeah, that to your point like when we make these shifts, we got to detail that out in the actual construction and and draw. We can

work with them as they move forward. Yeah, there's no no issue with the utility aspects. We have plenty of room to work around the trees. Kevin, how about the uh grease traps? Since these are going to be possible restaurants, are the grease traps going to be installed? Most likely. Um, in fact, there was in the previous uh case, I think we were told that there wasn't going to be a grease trap, but now they're showing they showed one in the revised version. Oh, okay. I didn't see it. I couldn't find the same. It was I think it was sitting in the patio. which is scary. Um, but anyway, yeah, if there's grease traps, it's likely to happen, and I'll let you just answer that, but it's likely to happen whenever there is a particular user coming into that space because nobody knows where the restaurants are going to go, right? That's exactly right. Yeah, we actually plan for a couple grease traps for every one of the buildings just to, you know, uh, plan for that scenario. And those obviously have to be accessible and they have to be something that can be easily pumped, I guess you could call it, even though it happens very infrequently. the comment about the the trees being able to survive with all of that heat. Is there any way you can address that there's more ground around them or I don't know. I actually had a I actually had a question when you made that comment and I'm I'm not um I hate to answer a question with a question, but what what in your mind's different about those trees versus the other landscape islands that are surrounded by parking? the town has minimum requirements for landscape widths. Okay. And a square footage too associated with it. Okay. So, in those cases, and we've we've seen

this actually in the um shopping center that's across 24, we allowed them to put diamond islands in so they wouldn't lose parking. Those are barely surviving because now I got it. Yeah. So, what you have there is the the more buffering or or landscape area that the each tree can have. Sure. In a landscape island, that makes sense. More likely they are to survive. Yeah. And I I mean, you may have a more technical response, but from a practical response, I think that's absolutely something that we can work with in the context of potentially losing a couple spaces so that we we we uh develop u a design that that that staff believes can work and won't cause the trees to go away. I mean, I guess one it's this may be um may may or may not go without saying, but a developer of a center of this quality who's bringing in these tenants and the tenants themselves, they want this to look just as nice as the town does, right? So, they're not going to want to put a situ a center in or a sorry, a condition in that's going to fail and make it not look good. So I I to that I'm not saying in saying that I mean we will absolutely work to to try and do what's reasonable in the context of ensuring survivability and you may have more technical response than that. So on other projects um we didn't do it for that location but it was very early on and actually we initially talked about it but there's um other products so you can put underneath the pavement. I don't know if you've ever used those Kevin Silva cells or other type of products to basically you're putting an organic layer underneath where it's meant to support the paving above, but it's also meant to allow those tree roots and everything else to grow out in a healthier manner. Um, and sometimes you have to irrigate that a little bit more because it's not getting the hydration the same as uh, you know, the regular green space, but there there are

products that allow that to grow a little bit more if there is concern. Okay. And I think I saw somewhere in here and I can't remember where that some of the trees are going to be saved along uh 24 and you're going to put trees possibly proposed to put trees in be or shrubs in between existing trees and try to save some of the ones that are already there matured and in good shape. No, I think they've done a good job with that. Yeah, I know. I saw that in here somewhere. And this this is um not being an architect, I I like the placement and so forth, but why are the the two buildings together? Is that um And do they open into each other? They probably don't. What how does that I I suspect it is to hide the loading dock. Oh, okay. That's correct. Yeah. Okay. So that you wouldn't have a condition. Yeah. Okay. Um, sorry, one last thing I'll mention too, and I'm happy, we're of course happy to answer more questions, but for the record, um, Economic De and Community Development Commission did provide a support letter. I know you all received it, but I just wanted to make sure for the record that you had that that the folks who, you know, are bullish about business um, in your town are are excited for this and we're super excited, too. So, thank you. Yeah. I I I just one other thing. After Macy's is uh knocked down, how are you going to preserve the remaining mall? You know that we're going to build the wall back up. You're going to build a Yes. Yeah. Because right now it's it's o it was open. Macy's was open coming into the mall. Yeah. And you're just going to put We're going to re we're going to

reenlose it. Yeah. And close it. Okay. hopefully for a very limited time. Yeah, I have some questions here. Okay, so moving to this slide here which shows the side elevation of the grocery store and then moving to this slide which shows all the elevations. Yep. Okay. So the back elevation which is at the bottom which is the rear elevation shows windows along that side. Is that correct or is that a I mean personally I like that. So because I was going that was one of my biggest questions here having this massing against Route 24 and just having a block wall regardless of the indentations every 40 feet. I mean, and these don't have to be these can be translucent just like you did at McDonald's or something along those lines, but just to show a storefront as it were on that side versus just a standard block wall. So, is that what's is that what Yes. So, going to happen. Yeah. As Mr. Small pointed out that that the elevations are are accurate. Well, no, no. I mean, I'm not talking so much about the elevation. I'm talking about the window. Um, it it will be built. It'll be further this elevation. And the only place you're going to have screening of a fence is going to be around the loading dock area and all that be for parking. That will be where the fence is, right? Well, that's really more a wall, but yeah. Well, I mean, for the loading dock for the Well, the loading dock has the 12T wall, right? So, it's actually phase four where the fencing came in. So if there's if there's along 24 where there's parking, the anticipation is that that look that wall is there where the trucks would really be doing a lot of their activity

and then as you get if you're facing it as you're further to the right, it might turn into fencing just to block the parking area. Okay. So then in building 200, you're going to have wall or you're going to have glass accents along 24 as well. Yes. Okay. And the same with um the frontage as well along route one. Yes, that's correct. Okay. From the standpoint of outside dining, it looks to me like all your all your sidewalks are tw are 10 feet wide in front. Um is that correct, Tim? 10 foot 10 foot wide sidewalks. Yeah. Well, now I mean introduce yourself. Oh, yeah, please. Caitlyn Pierce. Uh, yep. Five South Main Street. Uh, they range in size from 8 feet to 10 feet to 18. I was just looking in front of because that was the only one that I could actually see that said 10 foot. Okay. So, I guess what I'm saying is I think ADA requires five feet from a sidewalk. So, if you wanted some sort of outdoor dining in front, the most you would have in something that isn't pre-desated where you think a restaurant's going to go is going to be five feet. So, I don't know whether you all want to consider I think that's probably an example of not knowing who the tenant is yet and what their but but it would be an example where the building might get if the tenant rever outdoor dining based on based on your design. The building's going to be built it's going to have a 10 foot sidewalk. If somebody wants a doughnut shop or a pastry shop and wants a couple tables out front, the most they're going to be able to is five feet is five feet, right? Which could be fine for a doughnut shop if you have uh you know two two pe two seats at a table or

even three. Yeah. I I was just going to mention my comment earlier about that there's only so much food and dining that we can have in in this center uh per per the lease with our organic ger. So that's why we've pre-programmed those patio areas in those in those locations that make the most sense. Like you like for example if I go to the site plan here um in that building 300 which you know probably you would say oh what if a doughnut shop goes in there. I can't put a doughnut shop in there. Um I have to I have to relocate them on one of the other buildings. So, um, anyways, I I think just just organically through through the leasing effort and then also what we're actually allowed to do, we've already pre-programmed those patio areas and we do it on we do it on every project actually. We we always plan for more patio areas than we actually use. Um, and and this is the case here. So I I'm not I'm not too worried about I'm just I'm again I'm just looking at this thinking okay you know what what is the what is the availability to be offered to somebody in the future just like I mean because we had what in um phase one we had to re re uh do the drive-thru the medit Mediterranean uh place 11 came about never did but so and there won't be any in any of these? No. Going back to your last um your last thing, I I really would like to draw your attention to the fact that the spider road, as you're calling it, I think is going to get a lot of a lot of cross through traffic. If for nothing else, just the 236 apartments on on the um the site from phase two, anybody that

wants to leave and go down Route One is not going to go out to gate or any of the side roads and have to worry about crossing when they can go straight to Route One and go do a yield out onto Route One. But the stacking you have there, that that's that road is going to get an awful lot of traffic. Even people on Bolton Street will cut through because they're going to miss lights. You don't have a light at toll gate to worry about. You don't have a light at Route One to worry about. You can cut through the mall. You only worry about the lighted toll gate and route one. So, I really think, you know, from a traffic standpoint, you all really need to sit back and look again from a calming device like the the roundabouts. I really think you all should give a lot of consideration to putting those in just to slow people down because that road's going to be a cut through. Yeah. Nothing else exists. No, thank you for the feedback. That that like that right now in this in this property. If you need to get around here, you have to hit a light here. You don't you don't need a light. You can just shoot right through. So, I think you all need to go back and double check that. Absolutely. Yeah. I I think traffic calming would be a great idea for that road. So agree. And just to confirm for the buildings uh 200, 700, 600, and 300, they don't have loading docks. All all loading will be at street level. That's correct. Okay. I've asked mine as I went along. Don't forget the public. Thank you all so much. Appreciate it. Public comment. Is there anyone here who would like to respond to this? Yes, please come up.

Good evening. I'm Bill Whan. I live at Cedar Springs Road, Belair. Been a resident in Harford County for 39 years. I don't know a lot about this redevelopment. I'm closer to the 33 acres where Costco and there's other lots which going to create a lot of traffic. So the first question I have is what is the timeline here? We see an empty uh Macy's now. We see an empty shell which going to be a grocery store. So, a lot of citizens ask me, and I'm very familiar with Harford County on that side, the planning and zoning. So, exactly what is the timeline here? Phase three, we're looking at uh I mean, it's going to be built sometime if you approve it, but what are what is we really looking at here? What's the future timeline for this? That would be beyond our purview. We the developer would have to answer. We we approve site plans and mixeduse occupancies and subdivision and landscaping and then we're out of it and then there's all kind of issues that developers have to have and financing and all the rest. So, um you could tell, but you're talking years. You could well things don't happen only so fast. Uh but you can tell from their presentation they would be they were hoping for us to approve it tonight. That doesn't mean that there would be a shovel in the ground tomorrow. But that's No, no. I'm we're aware of that. That's our total purpose is when our work done concern as most citizens has is traffic, traffic, traffic. And I'm glad to see Mr. Hilly here because I do will talk to him afterwards. But the traffic impact study that was done, did it include all the future anticipated

uh flow of traffic as most TIS's have to do? It has any questions. Would you say again sir the rather than sharing the mic if the applicant would like to answer his question use that. Okay. And also sir if you would direct your comments towards us instead of the audience. The answer to that last question is yes. I have no more. Thank you. Please. Uh, once again, Dylan Daniels, 138 Salonica Place, Belair, Maryland. Um, I was curious about in the existing shops. It says future fresh grocery. Is that confirmed or is that just a plan? Like at the bottom there, I know that's part of phase one. That's approved. Yeah, that's approved as an Amazon Fresh. That exists. Okay. Why would we put a grocery there and then another grocery up there and then as well as the grocery in the sprouts in the plaza across capitalism that's three just capitalism competing business it just that equates the growth at one time okay Best Buys was a pantry pride there was an AMP where ali is and there was a giant where I guess Staples or or Michaels was across the street so I mean you know there's there's plenty of opportunity there's exactly where where Shopright was. So if you I mean seriously in this area in the Bair not just Belair town but in the Bair area you're looking over 100,000 people. So Okay, cool. But there's plenty of opportunity. All right, cool. I wasn't sure if the

competing business would lead to less desiraability in the area. I'm not exactly sure how it works because I'm young. So if it's any help, I asked that same question back at the concept meeting in February. All right, cool. Yeah, I missed the other hearings. I didn't know that we were on phase three. I was looking to talk about the apartments and everything else there. Thrilled about the Acura, by the way. Excellent. Very, very good food. So, I'm hopeful about the hopefully future restaurants that come in, but I was just curious about the grocery. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming, young man. Way to go. Yes. Come back. It's evident. Yeah. Garrett Hanigan 2007 Georgian Court Jaredsville. Well, sorry, G. Gary what? Garrett Hanigan G- A R E T HN I G-N 2007 Georgiana Court Jensville. Thank you. Thank you. First, I'd like to thank the board first of all for being so diligent with making sure this is the right plan for the neighborhood and the community. That's number one. Second, I would also I would also say with council here, you know, this is an opportunity for the community to see a real thriving area. I mean, we look at the Best Buy. I was there yesterday buying in the buying in the dishwasher and it was like, you know, it's kind of a sad sad scene over there. So I again I do think that and I would like to thank the developer for wanting to ch make a change in somewhere where we've seen across the street change and down the street change but this mall's kind of been like a a real dead space for the community. So I'd like to thank thank all parties for that. Uh then I heard a little bit about slow slow building things. You know, I hope in the future I'm, you know, I'm a business rep for the Carpenters Union that I have a chance to uh put my members in this community to work with

this project. So, with that, I'd like to say thank you and thanks again. Thank you. Anyone else? Hello. Uh, Chris Street, 118 South Main Street. Uh, good evening. Thanks for coming. I'm all, as you guys know, I'm chair of the Economic Community and Development Commission. And I just wanted to read the letter that we submitted to you guys last week. Uh the May 15th, 2025 ECDC meeting included a presentation from CBL Properties and SJC Ventures regarding the plans for phase three of the Harford Mall redevelopment project. ECDC is in support of this project that has have many positive benefits to the town including but not limited to revitalization of the aging mall which will result in economic boost to the area that has encountered increased vacancy rates as malls across the country have declined. Creation of jobs for residents which will stimulate the local economy. Increased tax revenue for the town of Bair. Transforming high visible piece of the commercial real estate bringing new retail and dining opportunities and more modern community focused space that meets the demands of the bor residents. As the planning commission considers the submitted development of the proposal, ECDC provides its unanimous support to the project recognizing its potential to bring lasting benefits to Bair's economic vitality. Harford Mall is the epicenter of economic development for Harford County. So, it's imperative that we support this project. We should commend these guys for what they're doing and what they're going to bring as far as new opportunity for the town. So, again, I recommend that you guys support this. Thank you. Thank you.

Good evening again, Wayne Gddard, 128 North Bond Street. Mr. Mud, it's good to see you. It's weird to hear you be called that. I've known Chris since we were probably teenagers. Um, I guess the only thing bad I can say about the project is that my company's not developing it, but can't criticize it for that. Um, I'm very excited for this major transformational improvement to our community. I think he did an excellent presentation. Um, as we all know, nothing drains the energy out of a community other than underused and and vacant buildings. uh we only need to look to the area that the state has purchased for the so-called new courthouse where they took away the the diner, the lazy boy store in the bank to see how that creates basically a zombie wasteland that's extremely embarrassing for us as a community. Again, I commend these developers. We're super excited to have them in our community. The owners are top-notch people. I've met with them. I've met with the developers. They're very, very well capitalized. They're very well able to accomplish a first rate project. I've went to their website. I looked at their other projects. They're they are first class all the way. And as I can tell you, it takes an enormous amount of economic ability to create a project of this nature, which is why Mr. Mud had said that oftent times multiple developers coming together. There will be a significant economic and lifestyle benefit to Bair as a result of this project. Uh just anecdotally, just with the small projects that my company is doing, we've seen that the average household income for the apartment dwellers in our onebedrooms is 105,000 to $200,000 a year. That's going to significantly benefit our community because those people have tremendous disposable income which they'll use at my project as well as this project. So, it's exciting to see the the desires as set forth in the comprehensive plan starting to finally come to fruition. Uh we've done these economic studies for over a decade now and it's finally

exciting to see things coming out of the ground and seeing people like the unnamed organic ger whose name was accidentally released and other and other accessory retail users uh that will um that will come here. Uh the plan is the proposed plan is a targeted redevelopment. It fully comports with all elements of the comprehensive plan. Likewise, it represents an adaptive reuse and revitalization of an existing building, which is not only comports with the comprehensive zoning plan for the town of Bair, but also the goals established by Harford County and their redevelopment in the development envelope. For all of these reasons, I would strongly encourage a favorable vote on this. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening everyone. Uh, Bill Kelly, 582 Rididgewood Road, uh, here in Bair. Um, I guess it's been about three weeks ago, something like that. CBL and SJC gave a presentation at the other end of this building and um because of all the things that have been said here tonight and I I'm glad to say most of them if not all of them have been very positive. I came away from that meeting thinking that this was going to be what Bair this is the catalyst that Bair needs. We've seen uh communities and municipalities all around us. They seem to latch on to something that captures um residents, visitors, customers, uh new stores, new businesses. Belair has not done that yet. But I think this is it. I think that this is something that could really put this town uh in alignment I guess with the other

activities from municipalities around us. Uh I was just I was blown away by it. Uh also uh I made a few notes and Chris has u attended to most of them. So so did Wayne and others. But uh uh one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that good solid growth and development like this and I've been around for a long long long long long long time. It begets other good development and it's it creates opportunities. that creates jobs uh for the community and also uh something that hasn't been mentioned uh I think I'm correct in this statement that a large percentage percentage of our population here in Bair is ret they're retirees if we can get if we can increase the tax base uh increase tax increase the uh reduce taxes I'm not sorry the other way around reduce taxes it's going to benefit us all. And I'm one of those senior citizens who live here in Bair and pay taxes and that would be a very nice thing to happen. Uh there there are others that live in other parts of the town that can really need really use uh that kind of support from the town. So I think all those things should be taken into consideration uh when as you guys deliberate and come up with your decision and like the other speakers uh you know as a as a member of ECDC uh just like Chris as a private citizen I fully support this this whole project. Thank you gentlemen. Appreciate it very much. Thank thank you. Sure. Sorry. Uh Dylan Daniels once again 138 Salonica Place I completely forgot my other questions. Um in the existing Harford mall section right there is that

the wall basically sorry with like Five Guys in Keub and everything like that. Is that the plan for that? Is that I'm sorry I don't understand the question. Uh where it says existing Harford mall if you were to develop that um would that is that the area where like the Five Guys is and everything like that is that I mean that that's a redevelopment of that area. It's not it's not preserving that if that's Okay, cool. Yeah, that's what I was curious about. Sorry. And then uh second question, um I work full-time and I'm only making about $40,000 a year. Is there any consideration for people like me who are younger who aren't making that much money that might be pushed away from apartments that are for people in the hundred to $200,000 income bracket? Because I know I've got about five different friends who have moved away because they can't afford to live in the area and know that's pushing away younger people that might stimulate the economy. Is there any consideration elsewhere maybe for more affordable housing or anything like that or is it just not the kind of area? You ask excellent questions. Thank you. Sorry. You take a look around town and you'll see a number of um apartment sites under construction now and with these folks at phase uh two that would be how many? 29 49 249 units and you've probably since you're already engaged in employment uh owning your own business that the balance of supply and demand as more of these get built then the price tends to come down when there's a more supply that helps balance that. Yeah, it won't make them cheap and we're trying to build really good stuff. U but you'll find that there'll be more options for you. So turn that 40,000 into 100,000 and Mr. Goddard will have a spot for you up there for sure. Yeah. I was just curious because the current apartment scene it's like about I think 16 to two or 1600 to $2,000 a month and that's still hard to afford even though

me and my fiance are both fully full-time employees. We're both working. So I was just curious. Thank you. Way to go. Thank you. Amazing. Nathan Booth, 135 Wallace Street, Bair, just want to mirror some of the things that everybody else has said and just add from a resident perspective that's located very close to this and a local small business owner. Uh it's a very exciting project and I think it's uh going to bring a lot to the town of Bair in in a site that's currently at, you know, basically a cancerous site that's dying. Um really excited about it. Really excited to see it coming out of the ground. So, thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? All right, Phil, can you tackle this? Unless somebody else wants to do something different. You're usually excellent at at it. I I'll take it. Thank you, Mr. Mud. We're excited, too. And u we all know, everybody in this room and everybody in this town knows that this is the most important site in the town of Bair. And u I'm not hearing any opposition to the concept of what you're doing. Um, but I think there's there are enough loose ends that need to be completed beyond the scope of sometimes there's minor stuff and we can turn it over to minor conditions and can turn it over to staff, but I think there's some more work that needs to be done here. I just noted a couple of them. Of course, everything that was in the staff report and that Mr. Small sees fit. um um

pedestrian um um pathways between the apartments and um the retail vehicular movement. There were some good ideas came in even in the very low late going there. um consistency, the elevations relative to the um um visuals um bicycle racks, dumpster locations. Um so with all that in mind, I I think that and this is a lot to digest and two of us were at the concept meeting in February, the other three were not. Usually we only send one to that, but we did have two of us there. Um, I think with all that in mind that it would be a proper thing for us to continue um and and let some of these things hopefully get worked out even before the July meeting. And I think um we have a pretty good track record here. I don't believe Mr. that you were involved in um phase two, but um that moved along fairly expeditiously in spite the fact that the the multitudes were here in loud opposition to that concept. And I'm not hearing loud opposition to this one at all. Not hearing really any opposition of don't do this where we had a lot of that and we we moved along and uh proved a good plan that we're hoping to see executed uh in the not too distant future. So with all that in mind, um I would move that we continue uh the application um at this time. I second that. Okay. I I I chair votes I as well. Madam Chair, what I'm going to do is write up a letter that I'll send back to the

outlining some of the things that Rob just went through and any others that I've written down as you've gone through. And what I'd like to do is send that out to you by email tomorrow so that they have a clear direction on uh what they need to come back with because they're going to have to turn something around really quick. So, um, and that goes to another question that has nothing to do with this project. Um, the next meeting of the planning commission is July 3rd. Is everybody okay with July 3rd? I can do it. I can do it. I think I'm available as well. All right. We celebrate Independence Day pretty uh heavily here in town, so a lot of us will be here for the 4th anyway. So, what that would is we would need a submission from the applicant one week from today close business and unless you're you don't want that. Well, I'm being asked by our team if it would be at all considered to to go to the subsequent week and I know we're the ones trying to move fast, but is it possible to not have it be the week of July 4th, which might be a condition? That would be fine with me. How does everyone else feel? You're not there. I may not be here. You may not be there. Um, do the following week. The following week. No, he's talking. I said I may not be here. That Oh, the week you're saying the third week. I mean, I think even that maybe 18. I mean, I'm going to do that. One of the things to think about all the decisions will be made by next Thursday. I mean, you guys have done 95% of the heavy lifting. I mean, I think this is more great. It was a great presentation. It was a great What you showed is Yeah. is what is what's

needed. Yeah. It's just there's just fine tuning that needs to be done. I think from from the ask on us is we have a number of people who fly in from out of town and coming in on July 3rd. I got Okay. Is difficult. How about July 17th? How's that sound to anybody at this moment? That sounds fine. That'll give you an extra couple of weeks. Yeah. Okay. the 17th. I'll just tell them that that's when the meeting is. We hadn't determined. We just told them there was a continuous. We didn't tell them July the 3rd, right? I'm sorry. Appreciate your indulgences. No problem. Yeah, I didn't think so. Okay. Okay. I'm hearing from our team that the 17th would be better from both the scheduling standpoint and plenty of time to address the comments so that we can work with you. All right. Well, that's we make it the 17th then. Okay. So that would mean submission by close of business three weeks from today. Do you hear commit? Submission by close of business three weeks from today. Okay. Bond street would have to be on the 17th. I'll have to clear that. I know they have the same engineer. Uh, I just need if if I can have Frederick Ward contact their client and make sure that they can attend on that date. Okay. But what about um Kevin, if three of us are

available just for that one project, would that be helpful for the three of us just to even meet? Oh, it has to be a public meeting. That's right. I was trying to help them um move along faster instead of waiting till the 17th. could one, you could have your regularly scheduled meeting on July 3rd to look at 102 North Main. Was it 102? 102. 102 North Bond um on the 3 and then you could have a special meeting for the 17th project on the 17th. Okay. And where there are there three of us who would be able to be here, you would not be here. You would have we have a quorum for both. Oh, good. I just can't be here. I don't think That work for your That's all. Okay. So, on the 3rd, hopefully it'll be have a very short meeting. A quick meeting. Yeah. And then we'll come back on the 17th. Also for a quick meeting on the 17th, right? Yeah. Woohoo. All right. That's what I'm hearing. You just get rid of those sulky carts. So, you got you got it. Oh, we have to update that. Yes, please. All right. Sorry. To be clear to Frederick Ward because they represent both one week from today for 102 North Bond submission and then three weeks for mall Kevin that's enough for Mark I'm just it's a question it's that's enough time for Mark to do what he has to do Mark Keley he said he needed to revise the traffic study and then send it on to our traffic engineer. That's independent of what the planning commission does. Okay. So they don't need to see that. Okay. To see that. I think there was a request. Yeah, we will work on that. Okay, sure. Anytime. Okay. And just to be clear, because I've written some of these things down, a walk between building 300 and building

600. So, Mr. Uh let's see the enclo the refuge recycling enclosures within the parking lot. Um reducing the road from 30 down to 28 and then they will have to decide whether or not a roundabout to to slow down that traffic or elevated crosswalks should be added. I think just the reduction in two foot width is not going to be enough. It's going to have to have something else. to to prevent cut the um one thing I would add with this is or this might be something you guys is having this you're going to have a fence that goes around storm water management. Typically what happens is they throw together split rail. Let's hope not that that doesn't happen. Um and then um architectural elevations versus the renderings. Make sure that what you're showing is what you're comfortable with. Right. One other thing I had on here because I again somebody brought up AutoZone. Um there are windows that are facing out to to uh 24 which appear to be faux windows. Am I correct? or that they show the what's happening within. Reason is they're real windows. Real windows that show activity inside. Yeah. They may have print on them, but they're real windows. They may have what? Print like posters, you mean? Like a like a graphic. Graphic. Yeah. Do make sure that they stay as graphic and not have any lettering on it. Okay. Um

uh cooperate. We'd have a a a requirement for to cooperate for any future development. Um review the service area next to building 300. Um that's it. Kevin Kevin I had you requested this autom Yeah I I gotta tell you I mean yeah you need an auto turn I don't see that as a turnaround I don't see this is big wide expansive pavement that they're showing I got you so to be just and we couldn't deal offline with this but your concern at this point is preparing for the future of phase four and how it would inter relate to that building that eventually will be there. Mostly it's screening a service area. Okay. And it's just not screening. Okay. So, there needs to be more attention paid to that. Okay. If you had three-way stops at each one of those areas, does is that does that slow people down enough? You know, it's there's a big debate about that. Normally, people say, "Oh, I need I see all these cars going too fast through my my neighborhood." Put up a stop sign. People blow. Ignore it. Yeah. First off, it's just a suggestion in a parking lot. All right. Okay. Yeah, it's better. I don't like speed humps, but I think in this case, elevated crosswalk would make a lot of sense. I think the technical term is optional is what you call them. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you all so much. Yes. Thank you. And if you could leave quietly, we have one more item on our um agenda this evening. Um I do apologize to everybody who's waited around for the uh yes for the code review. All right. Does

it Kevin? would you please present the last? Sure. Okay. Could you please hold your conversations till you get outside? Thank you. All right. This is um review of a potential amendment to the code for short-term rentals. You all should have a copy of the proposed revisions. I know you have so much paper in front of you. It's under here somewhere. the uh [Music] So, right now there uh short-term rentals are not in the our code. there is it's they're not permitted in town, but we all know that they exist. Um, so the I believe the commissioners have made an effort to to review uh short-term rentals and to see where it's appropriate to permit them and what performance standards would be required for uh their uh regulation. Um, Commissioner Rutled is here to answer any of your questions. Uh, I'm going to show you right now short-term

rentals. It's a unit dedicated. The use shall be maximum of 500 square feet. Uh, when it's in the R1, R2, R3, and RO. Property owner must be on site while the rent rental unit is occupied in R1, R2, R3, RO. and the owner or caretaker must be located within 30 minutes of in all the other districts. Owner contact information, proof of insurance, fire code inspection and tax application must be provided to the town. No signage related to this use is permitted. Uh a license from the town is required and all licenses are subject to an annual operating fee inspection without notice and revocation based upon violation. Um and then some of the guidelines that would be put in front of the board of appeals or other reviewing agency would which may be you in the commercial areas. Um provision of adequate parking and buffering rental criteria and operating information structure capacity and location of the unit. Um there's a small change to the definitions going from 30 days down to 28 for short-term rental. Uh and then what we're showing here, short-term rentals will be special exception in R2, R3, uh R1, R2, R3, RO, and then in the business districts, they'd be a special development. There you go. Um would you like to respond to this first, Mr.? Yes. Um thank you, Jim Rutled. Um, and I'm at uh 214 Wellington Court in Bair. And uh thank you and I I appreciate this. I um in the driving force as far as um on on the commission to bring this legislation forward. I've given a great deal to of thought and analysis and

research into the short-term rental situation since being elected. And I believe that this legislation is a real good common sense uh um solution. I I'm I'm convinced that based upon the demand that we have in our community for people to be able to have somewhere to stay when they come to one of any of our four wedding venues in town, Leadendrin, Rockfield Manor, the Armory, and the American Legion Hall. just for an example of people um not having a place that they can stay unless they have to, you know, go down to the I95 corridor. There's a tremendous demand for it. And there's also concerns though in the particularly in the residential areas about people not wanting to have party houses pop up, for example. And so my concept um was to make a a a distinction between the R zones and the business zones in town on a couple levels. And one was we would not have any party houses under this legislation because only up to 500 square ft in the home in a residential area could be dedicated to the short-term rental use. And that the owner would have to be on site, not just an owner occupied home, but they have to be on site during the rental. with all the other regulations and review posture here, you wouldn't be able to just go on Verbbo and say, "Hey, I've got rooms to rent." You have to get a license. And to get a license in the residential section, you would have to go through a special exception. So, there's a lot of safeguards built into that that um I believe address the

concerns in the rental area in the residential section by some residents that it's going to, you know, ruin their neighborhood. It's going to open things wide open to a detrimental situation. And um I believe that this carefully crafted legislation addresses those concerns. I think that it's important to um allow the investment in the homeowners to be able to at least take part of their home and make it income producing because of the driving costs that are going up. I'm afraid to say I'm part of the group that believes that our higher BG&E bills are here to stay and are only going to get worse with increased demand and lower supply. Um, I think that there's no doubt that our insurance rates are going up. I would hate to see older folks in this town have to make that choice of I can't keep living here in my home. I've got to either move in with the kids or move in move in somewhere else when they may be able to if they're willing and vibrant enough, you know, to go through the process and and have a small area of their home dedicated to short-term rental. That's on the residential side. On the business side, I believe there's there's a lot of support on the commission, a lot of support around town economically to to be able to have short-term rentals in the business zones and and um again I to the opportunity for example to be able to have you know buildings on Main Street uh some of the historic buildings if as they move along to other homeowners as people pass away etc. the idea that you may be able to have a a short-term rental um verbbo on the on the second floor and then have a

commercial use on the first floor that really would hearken back to, you know, the historic posture of Bair, you know, 100 years ago in that regard. And I think it was a smart economic thing then. I think it's a smart economic thing now. And I also believe it may make for investors um properties in the business zones more um of an economic uh boon for them to be able to say, "Look, I can do this on the commercial side, but I can have some guaranteed income flowing out of my investment." And again, it would be uh through special development and highly regulated. I think it's a common sense step forward. That would be a win-win. I I do not buy into the um the the boogeyman kind of fears that all our neighborhoods are going to go to hell in a hand basket because we're going to have some neighbors that have a license to have a small part of their home utilized for short-term rental. I I I don't buy it. We have in our zoning code um home occupations, many of which are allowed and many of which the home occupations uh may uh or could cause a lot more disruption theoretically and maybe even practically than um than this idea of a onsite homeowner renting just up to 500 square feet of their home. Got every Kevin and I, we worked on this. Um, Commissioner Chance and I worked on this and um, so I I I really feel like this is the time to con to start this serious conversation so we can meet the economic demands of people that want to come and participate and purchase and buy things in our community to be able to serve the families in this community by their relatives being able to come and visit them while they're either in

assisted living, a nursing home or a long-term stay at the hospital. We're doing our neighbors a great service, not a detriment to be able to support this legislation. I thank the commission very much to be able to give me the opportunity to bring it and I very value your input, your comments, etc. Next week I'll be going to ECDC um as well. So, thank you very much and I'd be happy to answer any questions. Yeah. How do you visualize I I have no objection to what you're saying. How do you visualize the enforcement? Uh would this be complaint driven? For example, if somebody doesn't get a license or they in spite of the meeting the requirements, they turn it into a party thing. Well, then we we'd assume we'd get a complaint. Is that how you visualize that? Is there something other words who would do what? Yeah. So, um all of these zoning violations um Mr. Rob are are are complaint driven um across the town. Um the what I do envision though is this number one that with the licensing requirement that we have an opportunity to give folks who really desire to do the right thing to step up, do the right thing and comply. Number one. Number two, we have renegades now and we have illegal short-term rentals going on. No question about it. Some can be easily detected when they advertise on the big, you know, uh, outlets, Airbnb and Verbbo. So, nothing would change in my view as far as the fact that will we have violators? We have violators now. Yes, you're always going to have violators like the stop sign. You're always going to have violators. And so where the enforcement would lie would be just like even just

like on the home occupation use or any other uses in town, but we do have a licensing thing. There's um the the application form that Kevin has worked on. We've looked at other towns and the type of thresholds they have to cross with fire and insurance and different type of things. I think would would be a benefit. The license would be very definitive and it wouldn't be a dis. In other words, that's different than a dispute about, oh, somebody was too noisy or partying too much. You didn't either had the license or you didn't have a license. That's right. So, you know, any of those violations, you know, so so what they h what they're signing up for, for example, with in the residential district, they have to be on site. They have to be an owner on site. That way if there is a serious violation, an outofc control situation and 911 is called and then Chief Moore and the and and the team have an opportunity to know they've got a person they can address, that license holder is signing up to be fully responsible and liable for everything they do. And and I think that that that that's that's a great a great enhancement. For what it's worth, uh, my other my seasonal hometown of Ocean City has been dealing with this in a very different way. If I understand it correctly, they have the council has banned um, temporaries in the all the residential districts down there and there was enough of a of course have a great market for it down there being a resort town. There was enough of a push back from enough of the citizens that it's going to referendum next month, special election. Yeah, I had the same experience. I go down to Ocean City um frequently on the weekends and um I just in the Gold Coast Mall people were signing up the referendum and it was the opposite experience of Belair there. They were signing up for the referendum to protect the right to be able to have

the supplemental income on the STRs rather than trying to stop it. and um because and large retirement community also owns properties in the the targeted area there in town. But it is, you know, it's it's not going away. Unfortunately, economically, we know that for whatever reasons, all the the the investors have analyzed things. No one has stepped up economically to build a small boutique hotel to try to seek it, to try to buy the properties up, to try to move for it. So, I'm saying let's listen to the market a little bit here, but at the same time, um, enhance enhance the town and and, uh, I don't see a detriment to the n to to the neighborhoods because it's going to protect right off the bat against the uh, the big party house, animal house we're at. We're we're we're and and if and and we're not going to have people trying to buy small homes in Bair who live in, you know, New York and they want to buy a small home and they're just going to make it a professional STR whole whole house rental in or our districts. That would not happen under this legislation. Okay. So based on this, this is just for profit. Like one of the things you just said was that if somebody came in, somebody's sick and they got to stay at the house while they're sick type of deal and maybe they're at the hospital nursing home, whatever. I mean, you're not looking at that because I don't see why that's even would even be an issue. What? No. What I'm talking about if we have You're you're talking about somebody that's actually charging somebody rent where somebody's coming in helping somebody. Oh, no. Yeah. What I'm talking about licensing those type of folks out. Yeah. What I'm talking about is is is we've had experience with with people have their all their kids are out of town, okay? And now mom or dad, you know, somebody died, now it's just one parent left and they're living, say, in one of the assisted living facilities

around the area. And then for them to be able to come in and be close to mom or dad, take them to lunch, spend four or five days over the weekend, fly in. Where do they get to stay? If they don't have any other family to stay with, they're looking to rent. Where do they rent? They drive down to to I95. That's So the So the person you're talking about renting is not that person that lives in that house renting. You're talking they're coming in to see somebody else. That's right. The customer is coming in from out of town. I I I I thought you were talking about a homeowner was sick, their kids are coming in and they've got to be licensed in order to have that. No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about that. I'm talking about like if we have we we we we're going to provide some supply of short-term housing. That that all makes sense. I just I took I took your comment. Yeah. as mom's sick or whatever and Junior's coming in to see him and he she needs to be licensed and staying in the house or, you know, in order to have him be there. If she was renting it to him, she'd have to she'd have to get Well, we have, you know, we have robust rules for uh for, you know, roommates, etc. And the definition of family is pretty broad. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I apologize for the way the way you're explaining this. I I see no no huge problem with this, especially with the mere fact that anybody in a residential area has to be a member of the household, so to speak, while while that room is being rented. Yeah. So, two rooms. your support is is is important um to me as a as a sponsor of this legislation because I'm frankly not not sure, you know, on on the the the residential vote on how whether I can garner enough support on the residential side this time around for that. So, your

support um is very very important. If you're in favor of this, I I would be very grateful for robust support um letter on it. I just wanted to say uh based on what Phil was saying, Ocean City, the difference is Ocean City, if Phil owned it and you're up here in Bair, your party house is in Ocean City. This is vice versa. You're here in the house. It Yeah, you got more control. And you know, with you know, you call 911 if and you get them kicked out if that's a problem and they're not going to they won't have control of the house basically, right? like you would in Ocean City. Yeah. So, here, you know, we're we're requiring, you know, Mr. Hines, that the uh the home the the the owner of the home to be on site. And so, that in and of itself, in my experience with human nature, is people are going to live in the same house for a weekend with other people are going to be very opposed to troublemakers. You know, they're not going to want that. So, I that's Any other questions? I'd be happy to um question and a comment. Sorry, go ahead, Los. Okay. Um the comment is is that where we live, we lived in the same home for 20 years and around us I am aware of two. Um and they work absolutely beautifully and I think this is a wonderful uh ordinance to put forward. is does the ordinance need to have uh what would create the issue where I mean the guidelines where this would be the license would be taken away does that need to be included? Um the town board would have to kind of approve the license uh structure and

requirements so that the the staff can implement it. So you would not have to just knowing that a license is required is as far as Yeah. Okay. We didn't we still don't have the kind of a final version of that yet. Very good. And we're we're strictly advisory in this. Yes. So yes, and normally uh we wouldn't ask for public input, but if uh if the two of you are here or anyone cares to speak, we'll certainly be happy to listen to it. Thank you. Thank you. Before I uh before you take public comments, I just wanted to point a couple things out. Um this is kind of be bopped um with the commissioners kind of came up and then died and then came up and then died. Um one of the things Kevin and I agree with is um there's a legal concept here um that's really important that the town has to kind of recognize. You know, short-term rentals aren't done in warehouses. They're done in residential dwellings. Residential dwellings by definition are higher protected from intrusion by government. Okay? So if you have a scheme in place that says short-term rentals, this is a licensing scheme. You have to have a license. You have to do all of this. There is an enforcement mechanism by which Kevin or Steve Klein could say, "Okay, I received a complaint that there is a short-term rental. So, let me join a little bit of investigation and I can maybe contact Verbbo and you know or or Airbnb and they might cooperate with us. Um, and you can site the people if you can prove that they are in fact running an STR. If you do not have an STR, okay, in place that says this is a licensing scheme and you receive a complaint, that complaint better be I rented that

STR because the burden is on the government to prove to even do an inspection. you'd have to have a warrant from a judge to go to somebody's residence to say, "Hey, we think you're running an STR." So you So you see the dynamic here in the legal part of it. You know, you really need to have a licensing scheme in order to enforce it because Kevin and Steve are no different than Chuck Moore. If Chuck wanted to do a search at your residence or Kevin wanted to do a search at your residence, have to have a warrant. And there's I mean they can shut the door in his face and be like get out of here. But if you have this structure in place, you can do a little bit more digging and and get some more information with the law in place. So I just kind of wanted to point that out to you and sort of like extra legal ease nonsense. But it's true like you you really can't um enforce something. Sometimes you just have to pass a law to regulate a certain conduct in order to be able to properly regulate it. So because that was always my concern is how are we going to do this with residences? You know, you're talking somebody's house and that's protected. So right now we couldn't do anything, right? Because right now you can't do anything. That's why this is we received two reports of STRs. I'm not going to name who said it, where it was or anything. And Kevin said, "Well, this is what they said." And I'm like, "How does that justify, you know, us taking illegal action because a strange van was in a driveway? So what? It could be an AC guy. Uh or I saw this guy looking for an Amazon package. So what? He could be a visitor. He could be a family member. It doesn't give you the right to just start intruding on residences. Does that make

sense?" Yes. So, I just thought I'd put that out there. Thank you. You're welcome. Good. Okay. Looks like Bill Kelly wants to speak. You better look out. Thank you. Thank you. I think your better half is ready to go home. Don't be too late. She's got She's I got to keep the house and she's got to wait. Uh I I waited to this late hour cuz I wouldn't I'm so glad I heard Mr. Rutley speak because um this makes all the common sense to me in the world of what these words this short-term rental performance standards uh have said or are saying and I hope that you find a way to get it passed. Um, I know the town of Bair has been in business for 250 years or something like that and they have enough expertise to develop regulations to wrap around something like this so that you know uh all these bad things that you said possibly could happen won't happen. Uh, you know, we have we have all the structure the town structure uh to be able to deal with that. And um we as as Lois has said, we have lived and do live near uh two residences who um have rented short-term have provided short-term rentals and one especially because one's just down the street for 15 years. We didn't even know they were doing it. It's it's it's you don't see it. And and if the if there's a if there's somebody is going to be uh particularly violating and there will be some then they're going to be uh the the authorities will be made uh not of that by the neighbors and people who live in that neighborhood. I guarantee you that's going to happen. But it's not

going to be prolific. I don't think years ago they I think it was Marriott that tried to that came in and actually did a market study for Belair. Now, Beller has changed a lot since then, and it wasn't feasible to put up a small hotel or motel, whatever it was back then. Uh maybe it maybe that's something for the town to to reconsider. I don't know. You probably already have that. Keep trying. You keep trying. Um, in the in the meantime, these folks come into town for particular reasons, a wedding or a funeral or a dozen other things, and they have to go to I95 in Edgewood or I9 or 90 uh I95 again in Aberdine. Uh, well, there's all kinds of places on I95. Now I think about it, rather than being right in their own little town where they could add to the to the economy a little bit. So anyway, it's enough. It's late. Uh, you guys have kept me up all night. I need to get home and get some sleep. I get I I need my little bourbon before I go to sleep. Thanks to everybody. Okay. I uh I move that the uh Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. One more. I waited all this time. Absolutely. I'm Tom Payne. I live at 531 Cresy Road in Bair. I've been a resident of town of Bair for 45 years. I I do believe I'm the original uh Airbnb host in the town of Bair. Uh when I had a business on Rock Spring Avenue, a place in time, we were zoned properly to have an Airbnb and we had a successful Airbnb for oh I guess 12 15 years there. Uh so I think I'm qualified to answer any questions that any of you have on a practical nature about the operation of an Airbnb. Uh they've said it all. There's not much more I can add about the hotels being so far away. Uh I I do want to make one

point economically th this is not a financial windfall for us at by any means. Uh what we do, what we did make uh on our Airbnb goes right back in the community. Uh we probably at one time maybe made $10,000 a year, but that $10,000 goes into my roof. It goes into my taxes. It goes into me taking my family out to eat. I spend that money right here locally in Bair. So, I think that's one thing I'd like for you to consider is that it's it's it's not going to be a windfall of income economically and commercially as far as restaurants, uh, uh, shops, but it does make a difference in in the people who are Airbnb hosts because all of that money is spent right here in Bair. So, uh I hope that you will support uh uh this change and uh I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you. Thank you. Any other comments? All right. So, we just need to say say yeah. Yeah. You need to give a recommendation to the town. Chairwoman, I'd make a motion that we recommend the Sorry. Ordinance Ordinance-25 second as written. All those in favor? I I Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Project updates for I hate I hate to prolong this, but I I have one observation. I'm all for historic

houses, historic districts, and all that sort of stuff. However, that being said, when we designate something as a historic house or historic place, we're putting a we're putting a u a restriction on somebody that lives next door that had no idea that a historic thing was happening. So, in our friends over here on 108 and 102, I think we need to recognize the historic nature and keeping the historic nature of properties within the town of Belair but not be so ownorous on the people that want to develop next. So, you know, the the way 108 was tonight, I I have no problem voting for that regardless of what Mr. God may may still want. But there are there are certain things that um you know we're denying a property owner to do with their property just because somebody next door decided to make their property historic. Well, but in this case, the order was reversed. In other words, we had the we had the historic building in this case and now we're going to build next to it. The the there's a lot of historic buildings in town and just because somebody says property owner A has a historic building and property owner B doesn't or property owner B may have a historic building but he doesn't want to be u involved I mean we're encumbering property owner B's property based on property owner A's historic nature so that's just an observation based on this process and the historical owner I think's obligated to keep it that way too right yes they can't I What happens if they change the color of their house? Does everybody else got I

believe the property that was or the building that was at that location at 102 um was a historic was inventoried as a historic structure. Of course, they demoed it, but um so there's two levels here. There's inventory and then there's designation. Inventory, you still can do whatever you want. Basically what it's doing is you're you're setting a record of what what existed there and um whereas designation is you're okay it's still exists and we're going to take care of it make sure it it continues in the in its same or similar state into the future. I think that this is a bit of an exception. I have no problem with that. I think it's good that we should we should maintain the historic nature of stuff. We shouldn't be so ownorous to a aren't coming next door or whatever. I think this is a bit of an ex exception because there's not as many historic structures that are commercial. Uh most of them are residential. And I'm surprised too that you know the historic district commission or preservation commission does not have oversight of the color. You can color you have a you can paint your house purple if you have it designated. And that that surprised me that We were comment the architect was commenting on the color of the new building and I want to keep it consistent and I I get keeping it consistent and I think they they've done a great job at keeping it consistent but it's just you know Mr. Gddard seems to want a few extra things and I think I think they they've done enough in order to yeah maintain well but Mr. Gddard can change his name when he wants you know historic for the most part the pres and I agree with and I agree with you about you know if you have an historic property now you're impinging on the rights of adjacent

properties yeah regulation for historic structures goes to the word alteration and that can be applied in many different ways. Uh we did apply it to the um old Eegis building which now occupied by um Not. No, I'm talking about the previous Egypt. Oh, the little Yeah, the one that uh was um what is it called? Dasper Hall. And the mural that was put on the side of that we considered an alteration and they went after the the owner. But anyway, okay. I