Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

3:00. Okay. All right. At 3 o'clock here. Let's call this meeting to order, please. Welcome all to the a Tuesday, August 26th regular Board of Zoning Appeals. Um, first item board will will uh discuss and entertain a motion to approve the minutes for the July 22nd, 2025 meeting. I make a motion to approve as presented. I have a motion. I'll second. Have a second. All in favor? I.

Any opposed? U minutes is printed are approved. There is no old business to discuss and there is one item today of new business on the agenda. It's a public hearing for AJ Nelson Properties LLP requesting a special exception permit for a permitted use to build a multifamily dwelling unit on lots 15 16 and 17 of Brightwood Edition northeast quadrant of Washington Avenue and 25th Street Betron Indiana. The property is zoned B2 and allows for multif family housing with a special exception permit. AJ Nelson also owns the three parals to the north of these uh parcels at the corner of 24th in Washington. There is a plan to build a multif family housing unit on those lots as well. These parcels are zoned PR and is a permitted use in that zoning. The planning commission previously approved this the initial request for the matter to be heard by the zoning board at this public hearing. Uh with that with that mentioned I everybody that is speaking for or against they've signed in the floor is yours please speak clearly into the microphone.

Do you want the people for against or you want us to come up? Um in no particular order. Okay. If you're ready, please. Yeah, Travis. Travis. Yeah. Be good. Yeah. So, I'm Travis Norman with TNG Land Survey and I'm representing AJ Nelson Nelson Properties and we're looking to do an apartment development here. The north piece we're going it's PR and we're going to do an apartment building there. The one that we're looking for, the special exception is in the northeast corner there, Washington Avenue and 25th Street. Uh that's zone B2 and from what I understand we need a special ex exception variance to do that. Yes. Correct.

Yeah. So the one that we're looking for the special exception it'll have four units and then we'll have a parking lot out front. The units will face towards Washington Avenue. And then I'm open to any question you guys may have. So going off the planning commission meeting a couple weeks ago, the former tenant here was a gas station. That's correct. Yeah. And did you guys establish there isn't any remaining tanks there? The tanks were pulled in 1991.

Yeah. Is that correct? on the very last set parts of your package did have stuff from IBM that provided me showing the tanks were pulled in 1991. Okay. Been vacant for a while then. Yeah. Yeah. And these are going to be twostory apartments.

That's correct. Uh you guys should have maybe a second page. It kind of shows the rough architectural concept. Um, Mr. Nelson's hired an architect and she's gonna be designing the buildings, but this will give you kind of an idea what he's looking to do. They won't look exactly like this, but it will be, you know, fairly similar to what he's looking to do in this area. You guys, you guys have

got one here. [Applause] So, like I say, we have the lot to the north that's zone PR, but the both of them will be very similar to each other in their concept architecturally. And then also all of our drainage runoff, we're going to take it to a dry basin out front and discharge onto Washington Avenue because there is some drainage issues down the alley. So, we're going to try to discharge everything that direction and keep it out of the alley.

Yes. [Music] Are there any ingress egress concerns or anything to that lot as far as one thing we did discuss I had a meeting with Brandon and Kevin and we talked about the dumpster pads and since these are one-way streets and they have a lot of side street parking on those. If you look on the drawing, we are going to angle the dumpster pads to where they can go straight in, back straight out, not have to turn to 90, you know, back up into traffic. So, it's more of a an angle type parking for the dumpster pads on those.

Yeah, they can be congested one ways in the parking for sure. Are there any other questions or comments? Um, just that we at this point

those three of us that uh are also on the planning commission. We heard this presentation two weeks ago. Uh there were some questions. One about the gas tank. I see there have been some issues, Kevin, or some letters that you've included in our packet. Um, I do want to be clear, I keep seeing in the discussion on this that this is a zoning change request. It isn't that would be done by the planning board. This is simply the granting of the special exception under the B2 current zoning. It's not a it's not a change of the zoning because that wouldn't be in our per anyway. But several of the the letters in here talked about the zoning change and this isn't what this is. And the PR zone, which is the north lot of board, uh that's that's already a done deal. It is. Uh so we're not even dealing with that. I talked to Travis about that two weeks ago. Uh it is this southern lot or four of the buildings that needs the special permit under the current zoning. Understand?

So we really can't do anything that's not even up for our to for our perview today for that northern lot. And I don't know if past there right now. Those are pretty well two empty lots. Uh but one of them did used to be a long time ago a building station got this. This was the opportunity for the public to come in and voice their agreement or concerns. [Music] Thank you very much. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Are there others speaking for

I don't necessarily have a problem with the apartments going there, but me and my fiance just had a house built on 25th Street. And when we looked at the plan that we got in the mail, to me it seems like the pad is going to be directly in front of our house. And talked to Travis about there being a wall around it stuff, but I mean I know our trash smells. Just one family. This is the dumpster pack.

Yes. When you put all of their trash in front of our house, I don't know. I'm afraid that's going to if we ever go to sell if that's going to lower people's interest in ours because I know we look for a house forever and we were picky so I know other people are going to be just as picky as we were and so that is my biggest concern. Could you show me on here where you are with where the dump pad would be in that? This is where we had the house built. And then from my knowledge, it looks like the pad is going to be angled right across the street from us. Okay. This is yours over here.

Yes. They bought it off of the gentleman that lived back there and they had a house built. So my biggest concern is the dumpster being directly in front of my house and the smell and animals or future when we go to sell is that going to deter somebody from being interested is that's directly in front of us. Am I correcting this? Is this the parcel where they're going to build they it's already zoned correctly to build there? Uh yes. Yeah. So this is the Yes. This is the northern northern lot.

This is the southern lot. This is where he was talking about living. This is may this um I'm not sure that we know exactly. Maybe you can address that where the one thing we could do if he doesn't want the dumpster in front of his house, we could always move it into the parking lot and move our entrance to Washington Avenue. That was something that I thought about is if we could do that towards the alleyway. Oh yeah. if I can approach you guys. What I think is we put the entrance here, then maybe I put the dumpster pad here at an angle to where he can back up and go back out

so we could put the entrance here, angle it there, comes in, he backs up and goes out. Then we get out of the front of his house. Yeah. What's your name, sir? Justice. So, we're thinking put the entrance here. Then we'll put the pad here. So he just pull in, back up, and back out. That would be perfect. Okay. Yeah, we're okay to do that. That would be perfect. You got to do that, Travis. And that makes you That That's That was my only concern was it being directly in front of the house as far as resale value. Travis, is that a consideration for the 24th Street? I was

we think I think it's actually really valid concern to have them towards the backyard that alleyway. We had moved them originally from where they were basically so so can get in there but a good idea. Yeah, we'll do that to both sides. Excellent. Okay.

Are there any other discussion or any please? So, I just bought the house uh right across the street at 2427 Washington Avenue. So, it' be directly in front of my house is I can show you please. Yeah. So, I am right here. That's my driveway, I think. Actually, no. My house is right here. Okay. And I'm opposed to it because the noise pollution um just more traffic. I feel like eventually with having that many people there just like on 18th Street up north, they're going to have to add stop lightss and I don't want stop traffic in front of my house. And the noise pollution is my main concern. Uh when I bought this house, that was like one of the main things of why I bought this house. It's just the peace and quiet. So that would basically eliminate that. And that's not what I'm looking for obviously. And then uh I feel like it would also decrease the value of my house. So that's all I have to say. Thank you.

And your name? Your name? Sure. one thing when I hear you. I just caus ice. I know they've shut down their plant operations, but they're in the process of trying to sell that property and who knows what that's going to be. You know what I mean? Uh obviously that plant made a lot of noise for a long time and they're shut down that. But we don't know who they're going to sell to or what they're going to do on that. But obviously, uh we do need some uh housing that's in here and they're not going to be, you know, rundown housing. They're actually built nice. I can't build anything better but something quality here. So, uh, more people to help out and I understand it, but there are still, you know, noise restrictions, things like that. So, you know, please take that in consideration.

Please, is there any fencing that's been planned in this development to separate from other people?

I'm probably from the houses behind there. I'm probably going to run a fence line there. like a kind of almost a sinkhole behind one of them in another lot if you will use for safety concerns just block that off and then you have small fence barriers in between so people have all privacy in the backyard you know what I mean so not truly straight line we definitely propose fencing on the back side just drops for but My name is Dale Plattor. Um I live on 26th Street, a block away from the proposed development. Um, I'm here to represent myself, but also um Carla Ael, who can't make it here because she's in her 80s and she's very sick, but she wanted to be here and she asked me to come and uh speak for her, too. Um, basically our um, issue with this is that these, and I saw this the last time in your packet, these are tiny homes. Um, that drawing is all over the internet, and you can Google it with Google image search and find it. Those are 16 foot wide houses that are all sandwiched together. 16 foot by about 32. So they're tiny and they're just not they're just not our our neighborhood. Um they're really not

we don't want any more apartments. Um there are 24 new apartment units already under construction right now within four blocks of this property. 24 under construction and people will be moving in this fall. Plus, there's a trailer park one block away with 28 new trailers less than a year, year and a half old with 28 trailers. So currently in this little area within four blocks, there's 52 new rental units within four blocks. Now, I don't know if you approved the zoning or whatever, but we we really don't want another eight units making 60 rental units within four blocks of our neighborhood. Uh if you don't know where that is, where these these are on Q Street at 25th, uh Hooser Properties, which is Pritchette Brothers, um they have a sixplex they're putting up and they're probably threequarters of the way done on that. And then at Johnny's signs, you know where that is, and I'm sure you had to approve the zoning, which somebody did there. There are nine twostory duplexes, which are probably half done. So, all of this will be coming to the marketplace for rentals.

um all 60 or 50 52 in uh in the fall. And of course the trailer park that used to be the Collins trailer park. You remember that? Um, they have 28 and we really we really don't want to see another eight rentals to make it 60 new rentals in our fourb block area. I'm sorry, but I don't know what to do to change to have the zoning as multi single family. I would love to see Mr. else have come in there and build two single family homes in our neighborhood. We would welcome that. What we what we don't welcome is the are these tiny thin forplexes that are 16 foot wide each. Um that's what I have to say. If you have any questions, I guess I do have one. Um,

Mr. Nelson, are are these rentals or are these going to be for sale? No, they're going to be rentals. Rentals. Okay. And they're not Yeah. Excuse me, Mr. Ser. Could could you let Mr. Nelson head there because we got to get him on the on the video. So, just to stay legal, thank you.

They are rentals and uh just kind of response to tiny note. Um they're roughly going to be 1,500-,600 square ft each unit. 3bedroom uh threebedroom. So uh one of the areas is already approved to build one of these. Uh so we're just asking for that change to build the other one. Right. And I I understand about uh I just want to kind of mention on some of the comments that he did make. I understand that frustration uh of wanting more homes compared to apartments, but we all know land is kind of scarce at sometimes or how it's zoned and we need more people to to be in here. Like I I even tried to propose some of uh different units for Nelson Heights and we adapted and changed those to single family homes and we're building those through uh as we promised from the changes of some of those concerns. So, but of one area already being approved to build something like this, of asking for that change of next door to it, keeping it nice and clean and not run down apartments is is my goal. Something nice and neat and it's across from um straight directly across from the ice plant. So, it's kind of fitting where it's a big industrial kind of thing around there. So, it's not like it's just homes around this area from the get-go of single family and going to I would have loved to have built just single family homes. I even looked at that. But the cost per acre that I spent on this, there's no way the homes would be astronomical to even make that worth it for anybody. And to even put more than one house on each just because they're like that that triangle shape would be so difficult to do to make anything worth it. So, that's why we came up with this concept for this land to do that. So,

do you have an idea as far as rental rates finished? I'm I'm looking at just my rough numbers now. Probably for the three bed, they're all going to be three bedrooms roughly right around that 1500 mark. Yeah. Three bedroom. A lot of what I'm seeing is like 400 to 600 per room kind of in the Bedford area. So, and but obviously new construction too, you know. Yeah. But and I I'm I'm probably planning on it not set in stone yet, but probably not allowing dogs. So as far as a noise concern or noise kind of thing too in regards to similar type of property around that towards honestly the higher end of

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of people moving in like even in Nelson Heights having firefighter, policeman, preacher, those kinds of folks moving in there. Uh, and I think with the expansion of Crane or people moving down from Bloomington to whatever, there's going to be the need for that for sure. Having more of a town home. It's It is definitely a town home feel for sure. Yeah. Not just that standard like apartment. Yeah. Anything else? Thank you. Is there anyone else being one more thing to say? Sure.

Um, so they were talking about moving that trash pad to that alley and I've been down that alley on my motorcycle and I do not see a trash truck fit down that alley. That's impossible. So, I'm just going to say that and that's all I have. The trash won't go in the alley. It'll go in the parking lot. It'll be near the alley.

Right. They he won't enter from that planet the respect to the valley. There's a retaining wall there about um four foot high. And the reason it is is because Jay Fiddler filled up both of those lots with huge concrete slabs and pieces of roadway that he got for free, including loads and loads and loads of ground uh asphalt. So underneath that, you're going to find one mess and a lot of asphalt. And you know, they did a they did a a soil sample back in in 20 or in n 1991, and I I looked that up for you guys. Um, they did it in three places right next to the tanks that were there back then. But all that fill wasn't in. And all that fill is also hydrocarbons because it's all ground asphalt from roads that he got for free. So, there's a reason they're retaining walls there. And driving in and out onto the alley from the lot that's on the south is impossible because of that retaining wall and drainage. Um, the whole thing drains down into the valley there. And I don't know, I'd surely like the city to have and an IEDM to have a drainage plan where they could connect to the to the s to the uh storm sewers which are on Washington Avenue, but that's the highest place, Washington Avenue. So, those are just some of the things I

heard that didn't make sense to me. Thank you. Um Travis Norman. Um just to address some of his concerns. Sure. Um we are going to put all of our drainage back into Washington Avenue. So our plan is to get the finished floor of these buildings at least a foot and a half to two feet above Washington Avenue. And if you look at the lay of this ground when you come off Washington Avenue comes like this and it just drops down. So, where we're proposing these buildings, we can do a 4ft crawl space and get these buildings up and then drain our water back out towards the front. We're not just going to sheet feed it onto Washington Avenue. We're going to put it in a dry basin and release it slowly. So, they won't hold water, but it'll slow it down and just dis discharge it at a slower rate onto Washington Avenue. So, the crawl spaces could be four to five feet, but we're going to do poured walls. And also we're going to go in there and do some geotechnical work, you know, based upon what he's been saying. We're going to do do some digging, see what we have. That way we can make sure and make our footings strong enough to withhold whatever we have there. And if we need to redesign the retaining walls to make those structurally sound, we will also for this. Yep. Thank you. Any other comments for Entertain any discussion. Motion [Music]

there's a couple people that in the neighborhood that call and I spoke to. Yes. Um I don't I don't miss spoke with Carla Ael but I did speak to her yesterday. Um she did want to be here. She did express that she had no problem. She thinks she was going to be able to, but she didn't have because she wanted to know what the plan was. And once I told her what the plan was, she didn't she wasn't forg. Okay. She lives across the road next to Mr. Wicker. Yes, sir.

Um I also spoke to Sher Taylor. She lives she'll live behind she lives on 25th will be behind this one discussing. uh her concerns were septic issu or sorry sewer issues. Um I think in your packet you have one face that shows where the sewer lines are and I spoke to utilities uh the 24th in Washington that building will connect on to the sewer in the alley. It runs down the alley a few parcels and then goes back south through an easement through somebody driveway back to 25th Street. 25th Street project if approved will hook on to 25th and then they all go down to Mitchell Road and back to the sewer plant from there. Uh the utilities told me there they don't have any problems in that area with the sewer. Uh they only go over there maybe once every three or four years to have to clean something out. And that was one of this M Miss Taylor's concerns was the smell from the sewer. And I don't know where that's coming from. So it's possible somebody in that neighborhood has a sewer problem that we just haven't found yet. But

that sewer smells. I walk by it every day. I just don't know where it's at. Steams during the litter. So is it coming out of the drain that's coming out of the storm sewer? Okay. Not the sewer system, not the sanitary system out of the storm sewer. It smells. Okay.

So, I'll get with the utilities on that and and discuss that with them. But as far as all those lines through there in the alley are all new that runs back over to 25th, that's all new. So, I I can't speak as what how sewage is getting into the storm water, but I mean that we know that happens throughout various places in town. So, true. Uh those an email I received from um Mr. McInness's girlfriend which expressed the same thing with the poster which that's very good.

There's an 8 in water line. You know about water lines. All right. There's an 8 inch water line that goes through Nick's driveway or Nick's yard and goes right across the street down 25th and it's in inside the grassy area on that property. So heads up 8 inch water line there. It's it cuts right off that eight or yeah what is it 18 inch? No 12 cuts off the cuts off that 12 inch that catacorners through the u the Nelson property and through the Chapman property. So heads up on the water line and building right there. I would entertain additional discussion or motions. Well, here's kind of where I am. Uh, I travel that street every day and I hear your concerns about traffic. Uh, I also realize looking at this that Mr. Nelson had to come to us for this this townhouse condominium rental property. on this one lot. The second one, he can go ahead regardless of alleys, regardless of access. We don't have any control that. What pops out at me is looking at the approved entities that can go into this B2. It literally runs the gamut

anywhere from a church to a bar to a tavern with no nobody have to say a word. It's already it's already zoned for that. But the hotel is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. A hotel could go in there. Uh so with that, barring the homeowners kind of banding together and buying that lot, uh this kind of sounds like it might be your defense against home values sinking or somebody will put something in there someday. It was a filling station. I remember when the filling station was there. Uh, do you know where that filling station is today? Claude Kern took it down brick by brick and

put it up on just north of Yeah. If you go up there, you'll see him. He even says on there. That was the owner etched into the glass. Beautiful. So, while I'm not a big fan necessarily of more town houses in the area, I understand all that with the building going on there. Um, I think it could be much worse

with dealing with the same issues of water of sewer of access and all that. It sounds like Travis and Mr. Nelson will try to accommodate if this passes as best they can for the neighborhood. Um, so since it's not a a change of zoning, [Music] uh, I am probably leaning towards supporting that and make a motion as such to approve the special exception. I would make a motion to approve that special exception that kick it into more discussion amongst the panel here.

I'll second. I have a second for that motion to approve the special exception use of this property. All in favor? I. Any opposed? The special exception as applied for has been approved. With no other items on the agenda, I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. I so move. Have a motion. Have a second. All in favor? I I thank you all.