Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. I'd like to call the meeting of the board of zoning appeals for the city of Beaver Creek to order. Madam Secretary, can you call the role? Miss Barhurst here. Mr. Raider, Mr. Roach is absent. Miss Vest, Mr. Esen here. Can I get a motion to approve the agenda as presented? Oh, sorry. I would like to move to excuse Mr. Roach. Is there a second? And as far as discussion, uh, Mr. Roach had to recluse himself from this particular case um for a potential conflict of interest. So, his excuse obviously is in order. That being said, all in favor of the motion say I. I. Oppose. Nay. The eyes have it. Now we can approve the agenda. Is there a motion to approve the agenda as presented? I move to approve the agenda. Is there a second? Second. All in favor of the motion signify by saying I. I. Oppose. Nay. The agenda is approved. Uh the next item of business is the approval of the minutes from our not only our June 11th regular meeting but our June 11th work session that followed the regular meeting. Uh, can I get a motion to approve both sets of minutes? There's a motion on the floor. Is there a second? Second. All in favor of approving the June 11th minutes and for the regular meeting and the June 11th minutes for the work session signify by saying I. I opposed. Nay. Our next order of business is a case that's before us and we'll have a public hearing here shortly. U Madam Secretary, would you like to brief us on this case, please? This is case number BZA25-1 on an application filed by Shawn and Andrea Dailyaly, 2187 Vanos Drive, Beaver Creek, Ohio 45431, appealing a

notice of violation issued by the code enforcement officer. The notice of violation referenced a violation to chapter 158.118 of the city of Beaver Creek zoning code. The property is located on the west side of Vanos Drive, three lots south of the intersection of Kemp Road in Vanos Drive, further described as book four, page 15, parcel 69 on the Green County Property Tax Atlas. Thank you very much. Before I open the public hearing, uh Matt, do you have do you want to present us with the analysis of this case, please? Thank you, Mr. Chair and board. Uh so today we have a a little different than our normal variances. Today we have administrative appeal. Um so as as you heard basically u Mr. Mrs. Daly basically are appealing a notice of violation and decision of the of the code enforcement officer as far as the their driveway. So uh basically the the property in question is located on Vanos Drive 2187. Uh it's just south of uh Kemp Road. And um here is our kind of drive by of the property so you can see what it looks like. And that's the driveway in question there. So on um basically on April 17th um the city received a complaint um along with some other complaints there on Vanos Drive uh that the app that the applicant had uh constructed a driveway that wasn't compliant with our code. So on the the next day on the April 18th, our code enforcement officer went out and investigated and determined that the

that the driveway did not meet our code. Um and um talked to the applicant about it. Um had we had some discussions back and forth, the applicant, myself, and on the 21st, we issued a notice of violation. Um the applicant's attorney sent a letter to uh into our department and then our attorney and their attorney corresponded a bit and um we issued a second notice on May 23rd and then the applicant uh filed for administrative appeal on May 27th which is what's gotten us here today. Um so basically um and and looking at at the at our code basically um our code says that any new driveway basically uh needs to be paved uh within six months of construction or six within six months of the certificate of occupants being issued. But we do allow for existing driveways that have gravel or as our code states similar materials constructed before July of uh July 25th of 2005 to be maintained as gravel um as long as the area is not expanded. Um and in this case, um the applicant uh did a nice addition to their house and in in doing so they also expanded that driveway uh a pretty good amount as well. So basically what our code requires uh that is if you know as with a new driveway it has to be uh basically paved or constructed with an improved surface and maintained in a good state of repair. So our code in the definition section we define improved surface as a permanent and continuous hard surface

constructed of either uh Portland cement uh concrete uh uh um uh buminous asphalt concrete or uh brick pa and uh and we exclude grass pavers and some things. So basically in in our determination basically um the the applicant did not pave their driveway with asphalt concrete. They basically took uh what we determined that what seemed to be asphalt millings and spread them out which we you know determined asphalt millings is a similar material to gravel um and basically used asphalt millings to uh you know expand their driveway. So the difference between asphalt concrete basically can is also um um is also you know considered black top tarmac asphalt pavement. I mean it's basically what we all see you know pave we pave roads with driveways with you know just regular black top is as asphalt concrete. Um so some of those some of those characteristics um it's a newly mixed engineered product uh usually with a virgin or recycled aggregate bound together uh with by tumin um it's produced in a plant um and it's installed hot with special machinery. Um it it is um as far as the binding elements, it's bound by asphalt, an asphalt binder called uh uh by tumin. Uh it's heated and compacted during installation. It's as a it's installed hot. It requires professional installation, you know, special equipment. Um it, you know, it creates a permanent, smooth, durable surface that can withstand uh heavy use and weather. uh it's uh as far as aesthetics a consistent smooth hard surface and uh it is a higher cost uh because there are

new materials the production of the product and the the professional installation that's required um I guess I should have highlighted so uh mil asphalt on the other hand you many of you probably have seen this as well basically uh um there's machinery that basically goes up and grinds grinds existing asphalt Um they'll they'll grind the asphalt down. Uh it's often called, you know, reclaimed asphalt pavement or wrap uh asphalt millings, pavement millings, crushed asphalt. Has a variety of different names, but basically it's the the grindings or the millings of existing an existing uh roadway or paved surface. Um and looking at those characteristics, basically uh it's recycled ground material from old asphalt surfaces. uh it's not typically it's not reheated or reprocessed unless a portion of it can be used uh as recycled material and new asphalt. Uh it often times can contain dirt and other debris just from just from the process of grinding. Um the binding material it's a loose or semibound. Uh it does not have the same bonding cohesion as asphalt concrete. Um it's you know spread cold and but it can be compacted. Uh it's typically installed, you know, basically you can just dump it and spread it out and pack it down if you want to. Um durability, it's much lower than asphalt concrete. Generates dust, loose material, requires more maintenance. Uh can be rutdded or washed out over time. Aesthetics, it's coarser. It's a gravel-like surface. And as far as cost, it's a recycled material, so it's relatively low cost uh because of the material labor and equipment that's needed to install it. And so you know in our minds you know for as far as you know the city goes um we those are two distinct materials. We have asphalt

concrete uh which is like black top and we have asphalt uh millings um and uh those are two distinct surface surfaces and you know based upon our code you know we require gravel you know an existing drive can be maintained as gravel or a similar material. We would see uh milled asphalt as being a similar material to gravel. Uh they can maintain that unless that area is expanded at which point that driveway has to be paid. Um so basically this is you know just another view of the of the applicant's driveway. Um again you know we would see that as being similar to gravel. Um it's not it's not a a paved uh asphalt concrete surface. Uh we don't see it as being uh a permanent a permanent structure uh or permanent uh surface uh or a continuous hard surface uh and it and again it's not it would we not would not consider that to be asphalt concrete. So uh in this in this case basically um the board has basically two decision or a decision between a couple different things. One is um you can approve the applicant's administrative appeal and basically finding that staff misinterpreted or wrongly interpreted the code or how you know and basically uh rule in their favor and and doing such would allow them to maintain their their mil drive milled asphalt driveway or you could deny their variance request basically finding our decision the the code the staff's decision and the the issuance of the notice of violation to be correct and in accordance with the code. Uh and then you know staff would obviously continue to work with the applicant to bring their property in compliance. You know

the in again you know our our in our code like I said we we see gravel and similar materials and we see mil asphalt being a similar material to asphalt. um you know that we we established that in 2005. Um you know and and you know there's we have lots of places that have current have gravel driveways but um you know we've we've you know since 2005 you worked to you know any new driveway be a paved driveway with you know uh Portland cement concrete, asphalt concrete or brick pa. Um, you know, the the thing I would caution the board to in thinking of this decision is, you know, to say that milled asphalt is the same as asphalt concrete, the the ramifications that would potentially even have citywide. Um, so um, so basically that's um where we're at as far as staff. Um, we we see those as two distinct product. we see the applicant, you know, their driveway is, you know, they did make some nice enhancements to their house obviously and they're trying to improve things and we certainly appreciate that, but at the same time, you know, part of that, you know, it needs to be installing a a driveway that's uh compliant with our code. Are there any questions for Mr. Funk? Or do you want to wait till after clarification of what he said? Okay. I just wanted to make sure that we were all clear with his presentation. We're all clear with that then. Yes. Thank you, Mr. P. So, at this point, I will open the public hearing and Oh, I won't open the public hearing. I'm all discombobulated today. So, if you'll excuse me. Is the owner here or the applicant here? I'm sorry. The

applicant, if you'd like to come to the podium and make a presentation, please. You can give us your name and address. This is my wife, Andrea Daly, and I'm Shawn Dailyaly, 2187 Vanos Drive, Beaver Creek, 45431. Thank you. Um, to start off, sorry, I wasn't aware that we were allowed to do a PowerPoint, but if we can maybe flash back by to the driveby of Mr. Funks. This is our current driveway as of leaving this evening. We need a better closeup. We've got picture if you all like to pass around. You'd like to enter that into the record. And now that we have paused on this picture, I'm not sure that they correlate with one another, but you guys can make your own decision on that. So, like Mr. Funk said, we did receive a violation from Don Hunter back in April regarding this driveway. Um, it was stated at that point from Mr. Don Hutton that we had used recycled asphalt in our driveway or what he was calling millings. Not sure where he came up with

that, but that's what he told me it was. And I kind of asked him what the issue was. Our house had been remodeled two and a half years prior to this. Had not heard anything. I I apologize to interview uh intervene. They should be sworn in before they before they give their testimony. Is there something written down there? Normally, let me administer the oath. You solemnly swear to tell truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in this case. Should have done that at the beginning. Does this go for Mr. Funk as well? He's given the the the staff side. No, that's fine. Just curious. So, anyways, we received this from Don Hutton who came out and told me that that's what we had had, etc., etc. And we kind of had left that day with being frustrated, but I made a phone call to Matt Funk and he said he would look into it. I'm sorry, not that day. He was out of town. And so I called him on the following Monday, I believe it was, when he got back and had looked into it and called me back an hour or two later that afternoon, said going off from his pictures that that essentially looked like asphalt millings and that was that. So we contacted our attorney to then contact the city attorney and they had gone back and forth. Um, within that going back and forth thing, I believe that there was maybe some misunderstanding about how the appeal section goes with your guys' violations. We received a violation, but nowhere at the B. It just says an appeal can be filed, but it nowhere stated how an appeal needs to be filed or what the process with that was. So, we had sent a couple letters back and forth with the attorneys and then essentially the city of Beaver Creek attorney had stated that, you know, we were still within violation and that was that. And then Mr. Hutton had rolled up to our house again on another afternoon with another violation. And I said, "Well, man, I think we're in the appeal process. I don't know that we should really be communicating since there's attorneys involved. I'm not sure

that, you know, there's any more that we need to furthermore with this if it's on their side." He didn't really know what was going on with all that. So, he kind of hemmed and hauled for a while. So, he was there around 45 minutes. didn't really know if he was giving me a new violation or if this was just a continuation violation paperwork from the first violation that we had already received in person. So, he ended up getting frustrated and ripped the violation up in front of me, then acted like he was leaving, then went back to his truck, wrote another violation up, but refused to write at the bottom of that violation if this was violation number two for said driveway or if this was continuation paperwork for violation one that we had received. Upon calling Mr. Funk, I told him what Mr. Hutton had said, and he said, "Well, no, that's not correct." Well, I I didn't say Mr. Hutton said this. I said this is what I you know how about this this and this and he said oh no that's incorrect and I said well that's how Mr. Hutton had told me that this code was being enforced or whatever. So anyways he informed me that Mr. Hutton would be further knowledged on what he may have made a mistake on whatever it may be. So then we found out that you have to then file an actual appeal letter with you all. But it was nowhere stated at the bottom of the violation that in order to appeal something you have got to go through X Y and Z to do that plus you know pay forward etc etc. So we found that out. He said I'll give you the break on missing the time frame for the first violation etc etc. So here we are. Um anyhow I think we've kind of gone back and forth. He kind of I guess acknowledged you on what bum 2uminous asphalt may be. So I don't think there's really any reason for me to go through that. But I think we're kind of at a point where I'm describing what I have down in my driveway as buminous asphalt soul and solely through. I'm not sure

where the um misinterpretation may be. Um along with that um you know I tried obviously we did a home remodel and everything inspectors had been out. No one had ever mentioned anything with being out of code or hey you need to update this this or this. Meaning there was nowhere that I had to take a permit on a driveway expansion if you will. So with that being said I went ahead and furthered my knowledge on that. And nowhere on your guys' online portal did I see where I had to do an online permit for a driveway expansion or get a um inspection on a driveway expansion that was never you know listed anywhere that I had saw as Mr. Funkin mentioned that it was defined as being an improved surface is what is stated as for a driveway. Under your code where it says for parking RVs, it states that the material to be used is Portland cement by 2 minutes asphalt/conrete or continuous brick paper surface. But under the driveway, it states it must be constructed of an improved surface solely as that stands. So, as our attorney had said with your all's attorney that if that's how this needs to be looked at, then you need to define your driveway just as much as you did for let me pull it up here. Yeah. So in 158- or.18 uh under C we have recreational vehicles and it says under number four it excludes the use of drive um existing gravel driveways grandfathered in as described in D2 all recreational vehicles visiting or otherwise shall be wholly parked in a parking area or

driveway of Portland cement concrete by tuminous/asphalt concrete or continued continuous brick paper surface and in a manner so as not to obstruct traffic. Then if you go down under D to number two for driveways, driveways and/or parking areas must be constructed of an improved surface and shall be maintained in good state of repair. Also stating all driveways and/or parking areas must be constructed by using standard engineering practices for the purpose of accommodating vehicular parking. I I'm still a little bit torn as to where our confusion is with the asphalt that we have in our driveway. Is it not the asphalt that the city wants to see? Or is it not the asphalt that the inspectors want or that the code enforcement officer wants to see? Or, you know, I I don't know. I guess we're kind of confused. That's why we're here tonight because we're not really entirely sure where where we're getting confused at what we have versus what you guys have along with what you guys have on your roadways that are in the city of Beaver Creek that we all pay our taxes for. Which brings us to these pictures that you guys can pass around. This is on a city. These three pictures are all roughly the same area, but I took some different photos to try to get a better view of what we may be looking at. And if you will maybe go back to the to the uh moving screen or we can go and look at the other photo that I had passed around and you can compare these with that. Yeah, that's what Are we able to pause the video at the driveway, drive point, whatever?

Okay, we'll just leave it on replay then. You know, I think we have we have Mr. Hutton and Mr. Matt Funk here have both uh basically stated that our driveway is asphalt millings yet. I I don't really know what their credentials in, you know, asphalt training may be. I've not seen anything. I don't really know where they stand on that, but I would be more than intrigued to hear where we may stand on that. so that we could agree that yes, they are, you know, specialized specialized trained in asphalt fundamentals or no, this is their opinion versus my opinion. I think we've kind of got to a point that we can maybe agree on that I think that this is coming down to they think it's this and I think it's that, but I think it may be safe to say that there's probably not much of a eyesore coming from our driveway on any portion more so than what we have seen on a lot of city streets that we pay our taxes to, you know, keep maintained, you know, along with other areas and properties, vacant properties, overgrown properties in the Yeah, feel like I feel like that's we've kind of stated our piece here. I'm, you know, no one has ever physically come out and had a comparison with me. No one's brought a trained professional in the asphalt industry uh asphalt installation process other than what we just saw on a

slideshow. You know, there's nowhere in your guys's code book or um essentially in the code book that states how said how said product being pavers being concrete by tuminous asphalt/concrete needs to be installed. There's no inspections on that. There's no permits on that. Therefore, I feel like, you know, whether the city likes it or not, we have installed what we think is more than sufficient for their standards. Yet, after the fact, they want to come after us and say, "Oh, sorry, no, that's not." It makes it very tough on our and financially, physically, and you know, emotionally to have to think that we may have to redo all of this because somebody may not like that. Just because somebody may not like that doesn't mean that it's wrong according to how we all interpret the codes that you guys have so, you know, have wrote out and and you know, express for everyone and force for everyone. Anything else? I think that's it. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Now I get to open the public hearing. Right, counselor? That's correct. Okay. Public hearing is now open. Anyone that wishes to speak on this matter, please step forward. You get three minutes. Joe Kendall. Address 2155 Vanos Drive. Thank you. Do you promise or do you promise to tell the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Help you God. Yes, sir. Thank you. Uh, yeah, the driveway um looks fine. I live three doors down. He's done a lot of work to that house. It's way older since 2005, so I I see nothing wrong with it. Um, it's a beautiful house. Um, you know, cut man some slack.

Thanks. Thank you. Anyone else wish Come on up. Name and address, please. Marcus Rud, 2184 Vanos Drive. I live right across the street from Sean. Promise tell the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Yes, sir. Thank you. Go ahead. I've lived there since 96 and Mr. Klein that lived there before that was just a little shacky house. Sean live moved in and rebuilt the whole Shawn and Andrea have the nicest house on the street. And uh I don't understand why you would ever complain about that driveway or anything because um everything is topnotch. It's all I have to say. Thank you very much. Anyone else like to speak in the public hearing? Going to ask it again. Anyone like to speak at the public hearing? Name and address, please. Uh Cassie, 2166 Vanos Drive. Kathy, do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and about the truth? I help you God. Yes. Thank you. Um I agree with everyone else. We live a couple doors down. Don't see any problems. Uh they keep the house very nice. I feel like there's plenty of other houses on the street that are eyes, but him and his driveway or their driveway is not one of them. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else like to comment in the public hearing? Anyone else? Third time's a charm. Anyone else? Hearing none, I'm going to close the public hearing. Now, board, it's time if you have any questions of either the applicant or Mr. Funk.

I have a question for the applicant, please. Was a binder used in the construction of the driveway or is the driveway made of loose particulate? Can you define the binder, please? The binder are the are the particulates in the driveway correct. Loose. Can you define binder, please? Are they are they solid like the asphalt on a road would be? Absolutely. They're bound together. Solid. Okay. With with what are they bound together? Asphalt by two minutes. Asphalt is the product that's on my driveway. It's bound together by what? I think clarification. Can you reach down, grab handfuls of it, chuck it off, or is it stuck? No, sir. No, it it's it's as hard of product as some of your streets or in better state of repair than some of the city Beaver Creek streets. Okay. And when was the driveway refinished? Please, could you clarify? Um, I believe it was finished up on Oh my, I'd have to look. The end of May, maybe beginning of June of this year. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Um, yes. So maybe this is a question for council um or possibly staff. I'm not sure. When when we're going through this process with violations, obviously it's it's usually in response to a complaint. Correct. Correct. There's a complaint in this case. when when this comes up as far as like, you know, obviously sometimes from from visual inspection you may be able to tell some things are are certain materials or not, but what is this? What

is the city allowed to ask for? Like as far as proof goes of what was used, I can turn to Matt for that. I mean, they do a visual inspection. I think you can tell the difference We will do a visual inspection. Um, you know, and I think I think, you know, again, asphalt concrete is a manufactured product in a in a plant. You know, it's it's a product that comes out heated, you know, and it's, you know, it's paved on there, which is different than, you know, a mil material that's dumped and spread out. You know, it sounds like from, according to the applicant, it was done over a period of time, you know. So, it wasn't they didn't h it doesn't sound like they hired a contractor that came out with a hot mix asphalt, you know, and paved their driveway. It, you know, it was a more of a loose material that was, you know, dumped on their driveway, spread out, and probably packed in, which again, those are two distinctly different materials. Uh, you know, I I think the applicant I mean, I I think a lot of people see the difference u between the two. You know, if you if you hired someone to pave your driveway with black top versus, you know, getting asphalt millings and spreading them out in front of your house and packing them in, those are two distinctly different products at two distinctly different prices. U you know the the city you know again you know asphalt concrete is a manufactured product that comes hot out of a plant and and you know and is paved on you know it's a pavement that's done on the you know surface that's you know uh you know rolled out and all that kind of stuff. I mean every we've all seen it on roads which is is you know with with reasonable confidence is not what this is. And I think I can simplify this so the I think there's no question that an improved surface was required when they widen their driveway. And you guys are bound by what the definition of an improved surfaces in

the zoning code. So an improved surface is defined as a permanent and continuous hard surface constructed of either one or more of the following. Portland cement concrete vuminous I don't know how to pronounce that slash asphalt concrete or a solid brick paver surface excluding grass pavers for the purpose of accommodating vehicular parking and e ingress and egress to the property. So that is the definition and it's whether what they put on their driveway meets that definition or stand if I don't go ahead. I just wanted to ask is there where can he access that definition in our zoning code? The same place he accessed our we in our in our code in the beginning we have we have a whole list of act of of definitions. you know, the applicant said, you know, you know, we should have had that, you know, that term highlighted or something, but we have lots of terms in our zoning code that, you know, those terms aren't highlighted in the code, but are still defined, whether it be front yard or lot or, you know, we have any number of things that are defined within our code that aren't aren't highlighted or or or uh, you know, emphasized in any any regard. But, you know, I'm going to clarify that as well. So the definition section they are specific terms will be in all bold capped improved surface but then every other time that it appears in the zoning code they don't put it in all caps and and bold just like board of zoning appeals is a defined term in the code and they don't put board of zoning appeals in all caps and bold every time it would appear and if you did that with every defined term the code would look terrible just to to look at and that is the way the OC the Ohio Revised Code the OA ACD, the Ohio Administrative Code, the definition section comes in the beginning. They define specific terms and then they just use them and you'd have to go back and refer to the beginning section of the

definition. In this case, the definition came on page 15. It's in alphabetical order. It's the third section of the code. Goes through all the definitions. You have a couple of questions. Um, don't go too far away, Mr. Funks, the applicant. Let me ask you something. Um, as part of your improvement to your home, did you actually increase the size of the driveway? Well, we essentially increased the Yes. The the the garage got added, so we didn't have a driveway that fed us to the garage, so we had to increase the size of the driveway. So, you increase the size of the driveway. Correct. Okay. Thank you very much. And just to clarify, Mr. Funk keeps flashing his PowerPoint back to it and photo that's not an updated photo at all of our driveway. We'll get to that. Thank you, Mr. Punk. Now that we've established that the nonconformity that was there prior to the expansion of the driveway means he now needs to meet the new code. Correct. Correct. Okay. Um, is it the intent of the code? Do you believe that it's the intent of the code to have an impervious surface? I Yeah, I mean it it typically Yeah. A paved driveway would, you know, of those material any of those materials would would be pretty much impervious surface. Yes. Okay. Um I think that's might be all I have for now. I do have one more. Go back to Sure. Everybody gets seconds. Do you want to anything else? Okay. I just have a question about probably council for for kind of implications. What are potential implications of the

decision if we are to not agree with the city for example? What does that mean for others and what does that mean for the code? Does the code now become completely inconsistent or what are kind of the effects of that? So, if you say that this is not a violation, that asphalt millings meet the requirements of I'm not going to mispronounce it again. If you're going to say asphalt millings are permanent and continuous hard surface constructed of buminous/asphalt concrete, that means anyone who wants to expand their driveway could use crushed up asphalt to expand their driveway without violating the code. It likely also means you could use crushed up cement because you're also one of the definitions is a permanent and continuous hard surface constructed of Portland cement concrete. So if someone had crushed up concrete, they could pour that down like gravel and it would be the same as crushed up asphalt. Once again, those are finished product versus crushed up product after the fact and your decision here would and you can't be giving consistent decisions into the future. So that'd be the ramifications. Thank you. Um Mr. Funk. Yes, sir. Uh when's the last time you inspected the pro the driveway? Uh we I did the driveby the other day. Um that's the video was from earlier this week or the end of last week. I can't remember which, but sometime within last week. And let me ask the applicant, has anything changed in the last two weeks? I'm going to ask the applicant again, do you consider this a hard surface and what makes it a hard surface? Is it waterproof or water resistant? Can you tell me how the driveway was constructed, please?

As far as how it was constructed, can you I'm not sure. brought you brought in 3 in of crushed limestone that was then rolled and then you brought in buminous asphalt that was laid down and rolled I assume. Absolutely. And any other components of that then that would that cause the millings that have been introduced here? I think that we keep referring to this as millings, but no one has been able to come out and say that these are millings because XY or Z what product did you use? Buminous asphalt. Under the definition of buminous asphalt, it never states that it actually comes out hot or cold. The city uses cold repair on their roads. That also is found as buminous asphalt. So, it's your contention that it's by tuminous asphalt that was used. It just was a cold mix rather than a hot mix. If that's how you would like to imply it, then yes. No, I I don't mean to imply anything. I'm asking you as the applicant for facts. I I'm not sure that I could fully answer that the way you're looking for as far as what are you calling hot and what are you calling cold? Mr. As the city engineer is here if you want to ask him questions about the difference between asphalt millings or asphalt concrete. Okay. Can I have the city engineer come up please? Thank you. Mr. Engineer, I'm going to have to ask you your name and address. Sure. I'm uh Jeff Mormon. I'm the public service director and city engineer. And I'm going to ask ask you, do you promise to tell the truth, hold truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God? Yes, I do. Alrighty. Can you tell us what the difference between we used to call it cold patch and hot patch? Yeah. Yeah. Um I think what he might be referring to in the winter time, you know, the the asphalt plants are only

open certain times of the year. So if we have like say like a pothole in the in the middle of winter, we have to use something called cold mix to temporarily fix those those potholes. But in in the summer, spring and summertime when the asphalt plants reopen, we go out, we remove that that cold mix is what we call it, and put an actual hot mix patch back in. Right. So, and so there are some instances where again when the plants are closed, we we'll use cold mix temporarily to do a fix. And I think too, you know, we maintain 252 center line miles in the city. Mhm. So, I'm sure if you drive those whole 252 Centerline miles, you're going to find some areas where there's some maybe like a repair was done on a water mane or maybe there's a base repair needed somewhere where I'm sure you could go find examples in the city where, you know, we might need to do some a fix on a roadway and and certainly I'm not I didn't see the examples he passed out, but certainly if if those locations are shared with me, we get somebody out here to They don't have any locations listed, but yeah. So um just from what I'm if I could add one thing here um you know the material that was placed just looking at the picture you can you can tell there's a granular coarseness to it. Um it really to me at least you know I've done a lot with asphalt over the years. Um, I have about 30 years of experience doing this kind of work. All kinds of public improvements that we've done in that time. And the material I see in the picture has a coarseness, a granularness to it where it looks looks like what we would call asphalt millings or recycled asphalt where just like what Mr. Funk was describing where it it's a product. It's it's a leftover product when they mill out like a parking lot or a roadway. It's it's it's the grindings from the solid surface that used to be there. Um, and it looks like, you know, we've seen this done um, in the past or even like the city, maybe we had like a

trail we wanted to do or something like that years ago, we might use that as a substitute for for gravel, but that hasn't been the case for a number of years because now the mixes that we use, it requires so much of the recycled asphalt to be used in the new mixes. So, that's kind of a thing of the past. Um, I think I'm kind of rambling. If you have any direct questions, I'd be happy to answer those. Based on your experience, is this an impervious surface that's resistant to potholes, etc.? Uh, it is not in my experience. I would classify this as as being a substitute for for gravel essentially where you can use that that ground up asphalt material and and roll it and compact it. It still acts the same as as a functions as a gravel essentially. You can actually substitute the the millings for for gravels in certain situations. So, in your expert opinion, this does not meet the code. In my opinion, it does not. No, it's a and again, the definition that I read in the code, it's a continuous, I believe solid surface is the wording. I'll read it for you. Permanent and continuous hard surface constructed of either one or more of the following. Portland cement concrete, pumminous asphalt concrete or a solid brick paver service excluding grass pavers for the purpose of accommodating vehicular parking and ingress and egress to the property. Yes, in my opinion, it falls short of that definition. Thank you very much, Mr. Wman. Any anyone have anything for city engineer or sorry, public service director? Either one's great. Anyone else? Um, can I ask, do you believe this driveway surface meets the definition of continuous in your expert opinion? I don't believe it does. No. Thank you. If you are going to testify, you have to come up to the and and

When was that first picture that you shown us? When was that taken? When was that taken? And I should probably also clarify. So the the question before you is whether there was a violation on the date that the violations were given. So if there's if they had entirely gotten rid of that and paved it with concrete between the violation and now it wouldn't they would still have caused a violation. I doubt the city would have pressed forward um with anything. But the question before you is whether there was a violation at the time. Thank you councelor. Any other questions? If not, any discussion from from the board? Can I get a motion from the board? Procedural question is the the question before us is councelor, I'm going to have you pose the question before us. So, if you look at the conclusion section of the the report, it gives you the two options. You can either make an a motion to approve the applicant's administrative appeal or you can make a motion to deny the administrative appeal. And you can see uh it's page four of four the two choices. And I it's up to you which one of those motions you want to make. I move to deny. I second. So you number two you move to deny the administrative field thus finding that the notice is a violation and staff's decision lawfully and in accordance with the zoning code 158.118 staff would continue to work with well

but that's your motion. Is there a second to that motion? Second to the motion. Any further discussion on the motion? Madam Secretary, will you call the role? Mr. Raider. Yes. Miss Best. Miss Barhurst. Yes. Miss Espman. Yes. There being no further business before the board, I'll accept a motion to adjourn. Uh, Mr. Chair, I move to adjourn the meeting of the board of zoning appeals. Second. Second. All right. We are journed.