City Council - Special Meeting

And is this first to keep? Or are we signing it? No, that's first to keep.

Okay.

Okay, we're going to go ahead and call the September 8th, 2026 City Council special meeting to order. I'm going to ask Councilwoman Moynan to lead us in.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. Gracious God, we have been entrusted by the people of Bay St. Louis to be fair and diligent in our service to the community. Help us to be good stewards of the resources before us. and to set this logical and good budget with potential for growth and opportunity. In your name we pray. Amen.

start with a roll call we have Ward one two three four five six and at large all present and we will move on to our first item of business agenda item 1a a motion to a motion to approve the police department salary scale for FY 2026 and 2027 do I have a motion motion motion by councilman Smith do I have a second Second. Second by Councilman Lewis. Any discussion? Vote the motion.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Motion carries 7-0. Thank you.

Moving on to agenda item 1B, a motion to approve the fire department salary scale for fiscal year 2026-2027. Do I have a motion? Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second?

Second.

Second by Councilwoman Davis. Any discussion? Aye. Vote in motion. Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye. Aye. All right, motion carries seven zero. Agenda item one C, a motion to approve ordinance 684-09-2026, an ordinance by the mayor and city council of the city of Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, adopting salary schedule, establishing salary compensation for officers, employees, and open positions of the city of Bay St. Louis. Do I have a motion? Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second? Second second my councilman DeSalvo any discussion.

Yeah, just a brief discussion I just want director to reflect a fully supportive as indicated by the recent votes of the salary compensation for the officers and the employees the one Position and it's an open addition I do have hesitation on and which would necessitate me to be a no on is the chief administrative officer position and That's a fairly new position to the city. I'm one that I would like to put our squarely, put our focus on the city clerk and comptroller. I feel like the chief administrative officer, again, is one that we've not had in years past. Much recently, the past three years, we've had that position. But really, those duties would fall under the mayor's job role and title as well.

So for that, I am— If you look under—I don't mean to interrupt, but if you look under what it is, that's how it's listed in there. That's what? Under our ordinance of the CAO position.

It is, correct. And that's what I'm saying.

I mean, it's a CAO slash city clerk. Yeah. But it is called CAO, and that needs to be appointed. That's all it is.

Yeah, and I'd like it to be focused on, I think right now, and indicative of our recent surveys that we've had in financial accounts, that I'd like that to be focused on the city clerk comptroller, and even if we have to... take some of that money that's allocated and then increase that to get something competitive. I think financial component needs to be the priority versus chief administrative officer. That's just my thought on that. So I just wanted to reflect that I'm not in favor of that CAO position.

You're not in favor of the CAO at all?

No.

Not even as a city clerk? We had a city... That's what it calls for.

Well, we're being, at this point, you can call it what you want, but the city clerk comptroller, this is a newly established position about three years ago, correct?

No. It's always been city clerk, but according to our bylaws, CAO is a correct...

But then what's the comptroller because in that what we're before before the CAO before the CAO before the you know We can call what it is. We had the city clerk comptroller that focus on finances But we've never had the position that previously But when we separate But when we separated it we created the highest paid position in the city So I would like to again make that focus to go back to this is just me and this is just i just wanted to state my opinion on it i'm just i'm one vote up here but i'd like to be focused on the comptroller city clerk aspect strictly on the financial side because that's what we need based on our audits is a keen focus on that um you know obviously and i look forward to getting reports of how it's going right now with our contractor with dd and see how we're looking but i would like that to be the focus to ensure that we get that position filled if that means leaving that vacant or i'd like to just withhold having that but again I just wanted to let the record reflect that that's where I stand on it is strictly focusing on the comptroller, city clerk on the financial side.

So, Mayor, just, I guess, a point of clarification for me. You have administration, you have mayor, and then you have city clerk slash CAO, and you have comptroller, deputy clerk. Is that, I guess, Kyle, what you're saying is you eliminate the city clerk and have comptroller slash city clerk?

If that warrants, if we need to be competitive to have, right now, if we're not getting applicants, that had the qualifications because of the scale then is that something that we need to look at adjusting and by adjusting that that would take away from the chief administrative officer and name that as comptroller city clerk so that we can get the right qualifications to ensure that we have at least an individual within the city that has that financial whether that's a cpa or financial backing to ensure that right for the comptroller but i'd like that to be the city clerk comptroller and And again, if we have to eliminate that CAO position to ensure that we get the most qualified individual based on the scale and what the market demands.

So kind of like flip it as far as pay-wise is what you're thinking?

Not so much flipping it, but so again, this is the CAO, and call it semantics, call it what it is, but that position was newly created about three years ago.

Josh, correct me if I'm wrong. It had been newly created. That position was a city clerk position, stand-alone position throughout time. It's always been a city clerk, a CAO slash city clerk. And our bylaw states the name of it is CAO. Not my father's name. It goes back to whenever. Well, our bylaw states on the strong may form of government. That's probably 1980 or 1960. Yeah. That's what it states, the CAO position. And it was always the CAO city clerk position. They've all been staying alone. You had Kay and Bobby Park and all them. And when you had... You know, throughout after that, you had a city clerk and a comptroller and all, and then when one left, Sissy took on the duty of the city clerk to help us out to where they would find somebody and everything, and

I don't think it was.

So was it a newly created FTE then?

It wasn't really newly created. It was just never filled because we was in financial trouble our first term of office. We didn't have the money. It was just never filled. And Sissy kind of filled both a dual role there. And it was like $15,000 a year more we paid her or something at one time to kind of. take and do comptroller, say a city clerk, and then when we've gotten all the feedback and I was able to hire Riso, is when we separated the two job duties out to have Riso be our CAO position.

I know the neighboring city is a different form of government, but they have a city clerk and comptroller in Waveland, right?

Because the alderman form of government, like the statues are written where they call them something different there. It's the same thing, basically.

They have a comptroller. I mean, they all do. And I'm not against it.

Well, I want to make... And based on our strong... My number one thing is to bring someone in financially. Right.

No matter what position it is, whether we find somebody that can do the other, and we keep contracting out part of this, you know, like we're doing now with DD and all, if that's the answer to it, I don't know. I can't tell you that right now, because I don't know what the cost will be for a year, but doing a very good job and everything getting caught up in you know, getting ready to move forward. But I'm not against any of this.

Where do we stand, Mike, with D.D.? We're still searching for the position?

Yeah, I've got M.U. coming up.

So have we done a market analysis? Are we off in terms of – because what I want to see is I want to prioritize that position over the CAO because I think financially that's what we need. We need the comptroller slash deputy clerk, more so right now.

So nobody – we have not had one city clerk –

but that I would like that focus more so than CEO and that that means that we're gonna have to put that into a veins or hold that position and allocate a little bit more to be competitive for a CPA you remove the so we have city clerk comptroller but I think I think the point that I'm picking up on maybe might be the confusion

The CAO part, is that what was added on to give re-sale? Correct. So city clerk.

That's what our bylaws say.

But it was an unfilled FTE for a number of fiscal years.

And we finally filled this city clerk position, the CAO, city clerk, whatever we want to call it. We filled that with a separate person in the comptroller.

I think what I hear Kyle saying is mainly focus on comptroller positioning if we've got to pay $10,000 a year more and take it out of that other position salary.

And then contract that. One of them wanted more money that we talked to that was good. I don't know if that's where you're coming across with that or whatever. You can pay somebody or what.

Where do we stand with Dede's contract?

In that position that we were talking about with what they requested for pay would have been a high-paid comptroller on the coast.

Yeah, I remember whenever that came up, and it wasn't comparable to what other counties were.

A certified clerk in that position as well, and to duplicate one person, I'd be all in. I'm still not opposed to that position with that person filling it, because I think that person could do a good job in everything.

Mike, I know when we did Dee Dee's contract and that we were allocated $140,000 an hour on that contract, and that's all public. I know we discussed it up here. With the new fiscal year budget coming in, because she's averaging 20 hours a week, you're still looking at about $140,000 a year with that. Yeah. What are we looking at in terms of right now? Are we any closer to filling that role? Have we allocated? Have we got a new contract for DD to see if we have to cut off, if we have to do a cutoff on that contract at some point, not to exceed?

We said we had $60,000, $70,000 in this year's budget to pay for that.

That's covering it from what we're saving by not having that. Can we get an update?

I'm not opposed. If we can find the right person to come in and do both of them. Because our first thing needs to be finance. That's what we need to look at. And I think everybody can agree on that. And then if the other position is filled, no matter what the role is, or something totally different, I'm all in. But our number one priority is finance. And that's why we started with trying to find somebody. It didn't work out. We looked some more. Went to a CAO position. Went back to that.

And I think one of the things it's just touching on it In addition to I know we had one person asked for more money for the comptroller position but I think another thing that caused some hesitation and why I was in favor of of going to use a contractor, I guess, to bridge the gap is the reality of it was we were, at that point in time, three months behind. Oh, I fully support it. I think we need to have somebody in that role. I guess to convince an applicant to come in when you were three months behind, I think that also, with that, they're going to say, well, you're going to have to pay me more if I'm going to come in while we were behind. So I think coming from a standpoint where we'll be caught up, I think when we go and interview, or whenever the applicants are interviewed, it'll give us a little bit more leverage to say, hey, you're not behind with this contract in and out. But is that 84, I guess the question is, is that 84 to 82, is that still enough? If we use comps compared to other municipalities, it is on the higher end. And because of that, it is on the higher end because from my understanding, think it was mentioned earlier just now was when sissy she got the city clerk title and that and got an increase but her increase was never taken away exactly and that stayed in that amount from my understanding that's why the position is probably paying higher than most right it's already kind of paying a little bit on the higher end is it what do we have on that is it uh it's not a requirement but uh it's it for cpa you're not required but it's something's preferred

I'm told CPAs are hard to come by. Yeah, and I don't think that rates, you know, get a CPA. A lot of them don't go further than get that CPA. You know, when you talk, when we was looking for, you know, contracting out, there was nobody around, no firm, you know, local that could take this on because they don't have the people as well. You know, one of the other ones we looked at was a huge company and all, you know, decided to say,

Well, and I just want that to be the focus. And I know it sounds like it is, but that's the focus. And no, not what we have. And I agree with Jordan. I think getting DeeDee and contracting her and filling that gap for the time being was a necessity. I think that we had to do that.

I think, too, if we hired somebody the next Wednesday, forcing us to hire somebody and bring them in, I think it would be good to keep her for a little length of time to help make sure we're caught up in everything. Yeah, have a handoff process. Look, CAO, deposition, whatever you want to call it, I think we've got, I don't know, five deputy clerks in the city hall. That's why we try to get everyone who has a chance to go do this. And the only thing they missing is the opportunity to be so they all have the knowledge of doing it. And there's an opportunity somewhere down the line, even though we bring a controller in, we've got people trained in city hall that have been to the school three, three year school that takes to get certified. They go through the same certification classes that a city clerk goes through. It's just they never been given a job because city clerk. So do have knowledge and that's a good thing trying to get experience up there that you know get them qualified and everything more eyes on the book different things so yeah but that's not my priority right now to hire a cao or whatever city slash city clerk um i think again like you would be financing that and that's I agree with Kyle on that, and I would like to...

I agree, too. I'm more leaning towards a full-time... Comptroller. Comptroller in-house instead of something that's long-term, just a short-term gap measure.

I guess I wouldn't... A lot of paperwork.

Yeah. And that's the thing.

It's not like I'm the boss, this, that. It doesn't carry any weight except paperwork.

They manage. They manage.

They just manage. And we need that because we need. I mean, a lot of grants, a lot of things going through the city that somebody's got to really stay on top of to make sure reimbursements are being submitted, paperwork's being filed on time. I mean, because things have flipped through the cracks over the years when all the positions wasn't full, and it's hurt a little bit. So I think it's important to have those positions filled at some point.

Right now, I think the way they've got it divided up, you know, Yeah. Yeah. And I think they get that. I think it's not a secret. And she's trying to help them and guide them in the right direction as well. Showing them some of the things that they can be doing and a better way to spend their time. I'm all in on control. Whether that has to be a city clerk, I don't know. I don't think so. Again, we have people that

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the applicants that put in for the comptroller, I think only one, maybe two, were a CPA, but none were deputy clerks. None had any clerk certifications.

I'm good with leaving the budget as it's presented right now, but I agree with Kyle on filling in positions like that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

any other discussion well we have a motion by councilman Smith and a second by councilman DeSalvo I do want to reread I do think there was a maybe some slight wording I'm not sure I just want to reword the motion or make sure I reread the motion

You have the hard copy?

Yeah, but I think it might have been slightly different on the hard copy to here. I'm not 100% sure.

So I want to compare.

But the motion is a motion to approve ordinance 684-09-2026. An ordinance by the mayor and city council of the city of Bay St. Louis, Mississippi adopting a salary schedule establishing maximum authorized compensation for officers, employees, and open positions of the city of Bay St. Louis and authorizing the mayor to establish actual compensation at or below the maximum amounts approved by council.

um what's i need to see if that was different because if not we'll have to it's like one or two words yeah it's one or two words the maximum compensation up to um really a good course so that's just we budgeted it mike and it's a merit right so you're gonna it's a essentially a merit increase across the board because we've done both yeah we've done both yeah some some of it is and what that is is so sometimes we have an opening

and we're trying to get a body. Public Works is a good example. Sometimes we have an operator position open, but we don't have an operator. We bring somebody in that says they can operate, and they'll bring them in for less money when they find out they can operate, and they'll bring them up and pay them off. So it just gives you an opportunity to do that.

So just to keep it formal, I know there was one or two words that was different, same message, but I have a motion for the amended motion. Yes. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second?

That's going to, is there any positions in mind that you're looking to do that with or no? Well, we do.

I think that a couple just got hired in. I won't get that, you know. And they do, they try to bring them in sometimes. You might have somebody that's been there a long period of time, and they might come in, and they would make $20-something an hour, and you bring somebody in and start them off at a reasonable rate, whatever that is, and go from there.

I like that approach. Just a perfect example. You've got somebody that's got 10 years, and they've been brought up to, say, $20, and somebody that only has one year, you're not necessarily bringing them right in at that $20, because that could create some disparity amongst other wage indexes.

Right, that's right.

But that's very few.

I have a motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second?

Yeah, I'm in my second.

Second by Councilman DeSalvo. Any other discussion? Vote the motion.

Aye. Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0. Okay, moving on to agenda item 1D, a motion to approve the resolution of the City Council of the City of Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, adopting building, construction, permit, inspection, contractor, and related fees for fiscal year 2027. Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second? Second by Councilwoman Davis. Any discussion? Vote the motion.

Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0. Moving on to agenda item 1E, a motion to approve the utility meter installation fees for FY 2026-2027, effective October 2026.

Motion.

Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second? Second. Second by Councilman Lewis. Any discussion? Vote the motion.

Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0.

Moving on to 1F, a motion to approve the Municipal Harbor fee schedule for FY 2026-2027. Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith.

Do I have a second?

More than seconds.

Any discussion?

Have we done any comparables? I'm just curious with the other cities. I know we were saying before that we were kind of low.

What's that?

Have we done any comparables? Like with the other, yes.

Yeah, we're right there. We're not high, we're not low. We're in the middle of fucking Harvard.

Okay.

They keep up with that, keep up with fuel and everything.

We're still staying pretty full.

any other discussion about the motion aye Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0. Moving on to agenda item 1G, a motion to approve the rental fee schedule for FY 2026-2027.

Motion.

Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second? One in seconds. Any discussion?

Quick question. Mike, I have the rental fee schedule. We've got the community hall all the time, community hall. I don't see the depot. We're still at the same rate on the depot.

Everything stays the same on all our rentals. Any other discussion?

Vote the motion. Aye. Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0. Agenda item 1H, a motion to approve the resolution by the mayor and city council of Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, approving and adopting the FY 2026-2027 budget as finally determined by the city governing authority. Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second?

Going in seconds.

Any discussion? Discussion.

Just kind of. Wrap things up, but there's been just a couple sticking points for me on this budget and we've discussed in the past Workshops and hearings, but for me the first being I just something I just can't get behind right now That's it. That is currently in our budget is the 35,000 allocated the Main Street Association I just can't get over how it's not duplication of services, which necessitated Hank County tourism to go into abeyance So for that reason being, I can't support that. And then two, and as I've discussed my concerns in the past and reflective of the past couple of votes we've had is this, is the flat camera system. We have allocated about $121,000 towards that system with the addition of 25 more pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. I just can't get over the Fourth Amendment, warrantless searches, and the constitutional rights. If it's something that we really feel passionate about having, we're going to have a referendum potentially, or we budget for a referendum. you know for the 2% hosting fee why not bring this to a referendum for the citizens to see if they want to be surveilled upon you know but again those those are the two main things for me that are currently in the budget that I can't get behind the two those two reasons only I support all of our previous motions we've had with the approval of the police department salary scale fire department salary scale are the employees but those two reasons I would I would be a no on the budget as it stands now because of those two budgetary items

Any other discussion?

The mainstream stuff, we're going to have more discussions. All we know is in the budget, it's not just going to be, I mean, it's got to come across the docket.

Okay, because my only problem is,

It's not all-inclusive of all businesses. It's a select area right now.

Well, I think that'll grow as time goes. But, you know, and we've talked about this.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I've heard it from Highway 90 businesses for years. They feel like everything's focused on one spot and other businesses get left out.

I don't know how you include them in that to start with, but sitting there the other night in one of the restaurants on 90, You know, they talked about, you know, that location, which they could get downtown, this and that and everything, all the closer in and all. But one thing that they all had to say was that whenever there's an event at St. Louis, they see that tourism and businesses pick up. But I think what we do inside of town, I think it helps the entire city, probably next and over even more sometimes. But I think. I think our gas stations, I think our stores, I think our restaurants on the highway, you know, that big event time, you do see businesses do better.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, talking, you know, with Nancy about it and the other ones, you know, they're starting here, but the intent is to grow it, you know, to our corridors and everything else coming in into our city.

And that's my main thing, is there's going to be promotions and everything else. I'd like to promote all businesses in Bay St. Louis, not just a select few. That's my biggest pet peeve on it. I know if we start small, I just hope that I'm fine with trying it, but I would like to see it grow into being advertised and supporting all businesses in Bay St. Louis.

And one of the things that I think Main Street talked about a little bit, I wasn't here for the presentation that they had, I have done some research on Main Street. I went to one of their presentations, and one thing that they do, and I think, I hope this will tie in and make its way to Highway 90, because I think our downtown, as far as vacant buildings, I mean, very few. We know what buildings are vacant down there, and they're not vacant because a business doesn't feel like they could go into there. They're vacant because the price of the building is too high.

And that's the problem we have throughout our highway as well. Yeah. With property values. Values of it, right. The homeowners and property owners that own these in Bay St. Louis think it's worth that amount of dollars, you know, and they go across the line and get it for a house.

For the $35,000, I'd like to see it benefit more than just that specific area, to Josh's point, and to make sure that maybe the focus can happen citywide. I know we bring an event in, the whole city benefits from it, but actually identifying areas that could be revitalized. So as far as the budget goes, I'm okay with moving forward with the intention that we do have additional workshops and additional discussion before that's finalized.

Maybe look at the opportunity zone that was presented years ago and look at trying to start there but incorporate everything eventually just for... Give my opportunity to be involved in it, you know Any other discussion On the flock cameras, now that's the grant we're getting, so it's just a pass-through, correct?

Yes.

So that's not, I just want the general public to know it's not general fund money we're spending at this point. I understand Kyle's point.

For whatever reason, it takes turns out or something, we just don't get in.

Yeah, but for now that's not the money. That's federal money right now as long as it stays like that, so okay.

So for Main Street, we're saying it's there, but before we make any movement, it all has to go before us. And then Flock, it's grant-wise, so it stays as is. Because it's not actually city money.

You know, I think, you know, Flock, you know, you got people for it, you got people against it, you know, and this and that, that they, you know, they can spy on me and this and that. Look, we trust these guys with a gun and a car and everything else. You know, if they're bad, people do wrong. People do wrong in all sorts of business, in the banks, in the hospitals, anywhere. People get hacked. People get this, you know. So it's something we have to have trust with. We have not seen anything not to give these guys and all these officers the trust that they deserve to help with their job. Not targeting anybody, not profiling anybody. I would like to see an ordinance presented to the council with that just immediate termination or some severe penalty if they are part of abusing it. That's my main thing is

I'm all for flocking, I'm all for police, but I'm all for punishing somebody that abuses it because that's the ones that's giving us a bad name right now is the abuser. So they have to be held accountable to the fullest, whether it's fired, if it goes criminal past that for spying on somebody or stalking, those charges need to be pursued and it needs to be serious and everybody that has access to that needs to be aware of that, in my opinion.

It'd be automatic termination. But how long have we had cameras on the highways, Mississippi State? two decades. The cameras have been out there at every major intersection in the entire state. They're on the bridge. They're everywhere. I just don't see...

They've done a lot of good. Solving traffic problems. It saves one person's life and all. It's just me.

I would like to see the SOP that we have in place right now, the standard operating procedure, how it's accessed, who's accessing it. Do we have established guidelines as to... No, I'd like to just put eyes on it and just verify it.

Make sure we have one.

And then, as discussed, you know, obviously seeing what the ramifications are, it's happening. The fact of the matter is it is happening around other police departments throughout the country.

Again, you know, everything has been hacked in this world. Everything. Whether you're at the hospital, you get hacked. Whether you're at a bank, you get hacked. Everything has been hacked.

It's not just hacked. So, again...

So, you know, to say that there's a bad cop in... bum fricking wherever, you know, and want to put that on our offices.

Right.

To me, it's unjustified. You know, again, we give them a gun, we give them a badge, we give them a big old car to ride around in to protect us. And until something is, you know, is abused and all, and I think there's steps in place that fully, you know, monitor this, and they will Mike, why don't you talk? You've had people that misuse the 911 on record call-outs. It's no different than that. That probably gets abused more than anything there is out there.

Well, and I think, again, I mean, history will be the judge if this is the right decision. I do know that there's a difference between putting pen, tilt, and zoom cameras all around our parks, children playing at parks, under the facade of safety than having cameras on the highway. I mean, obviously, there's a reason that in order to get a cell phone ping, there has to be a subpoena. This does not allow that. So, again, what we are doing is allowing the seven of us to do informed consent for all of our citizens. They will be surveilled. Whether you like it or not, you will be under surveillance without a warrant. So, again, this is, to me, I think it's a slippery slope. I've discussed it, and I'll stick to that. History will be the judge of whether that's the wrong or right decision. I don't use the justification, well, everything you get hacked, this is no different. To me, that's even more of justification because we don't know where this information goes. I have too many question marks and questions for this. Um, But again, I've seen many other areas where municipalities are actually, they've had so many false positives that they have. There's city after city that are getting rid of these. So again, time will tell. I can't get behind it. I think our police officers, and I'm not discrediting the work they do, I would rather use that money and add a couple more officers on the task force and get into true community policing and ensure that we're, and then they're doing a great job as it stands now. But again, relying solely on the surveillance and cameras, I don't think is the answer. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. Like I said, history will be the judge of it, and time will tell.

I don't think they rely on it.

Absolutely not.

I think it's just another tool to help them solve problems. Reliance upon it. Not over-reliance upon it, but yes, there is a reliance upon it if there's need.

But they're not using this instead of doing their job to say, well, you know, let's see what's happening over there and there. You know, it's just like for Mardi Gras when that car comes through, it was warranted somewhere for murder charges. When it came through Bay St. Louis down the side near each parade going on right there, it pinged, and they were late to stop to cross the line right there because of that ping right there on Highway 90 with near each parade going on. We knew, they knew, that they were in our city coming through.

And maybe we can put one when cruising's coming up to where we can see where there's illegal burnouts. We can have those lights in place.

Well, the private schools are using AI cameras.

Maybe we don't want to see who's hacking the hospitals.

The private schools use AI cameras every grade from pre-K all the way up.

And all the kids are on cameras there. One thing I'd like to add, I guess, to this, you know, the flock conversation, my major concern isn't at the local level, because I think with our police department, we have a good leadership at the wheel right now. You know, I do like the thought process of trust but verify, but also maybe adopting an ordinance, like Josh alluded, like Councilman DeSalvo alluded to, to where they know that there are repercussions and what it could be if it's abused. I think that's a great idea. And, you know, I've been spending a lot of time looking at flock. I do see other municipalities pulling it down. I don't know, you know, if that's the pressure from public or if that's, you know, personal feelings of it. I've tried, I really have tried to try to find verifiable instances where Flock has been selling the data or where Flock is being hacked as a big brother. Other than Reddit, I cannot find a form. I mean, I have not found anything factual. That it's happening. I know the, I guess this could be a reason to not do it either, is we can't verify that it's not happening. But on this other side of it, we can't verify that it is happening right now. So for that, you know, this could be something in three months from now, I regret it, putting it in our budget. But if in the event it is abused at the national level and that comes out, we do have the ability to pull them down at any time. Currently, I really have. I've tried to find, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. If someone can send me some information of somewhere that's an actual database, maybe a judgment or something where they found abuse, I'll change my vote at the next meeting. But I personally could not find anything. And I encourage the public, anyone listening, If you can send me something factual against Flock, I'll be more than glad to listen. So that's what I have, though.

And I've had calls both ways, you know. Some people I never thought would be against Flock are. So I'm hearing it from both sides, right? Yeah, likewise.

I mean, in my personal life, I'm kind of, you know, I'm conflicted and, you know, public safety, and then you have the privacy side of it, right? And this has probably been one of the tougher situations to balance, but... Like I said, my two areas of concern is our police department. I think we're going to control it. I think we have safeguards in place. Would it be great to have it presented to us so we can put eyes on it? Absolutely. But the second worry is where's the data stored? I know it's on a FedRAMP-approved server. Can that be hacked into? I've spent time on Flock's website. I've spent time just trying to pull articles, but everything falls on i mean some of my favorite hey some of my favorite youtubers and channels that i follow on youtube are talking against flock but it's it's a lot of their arguments are at the individual level the police officers and the municipalities abusing it um i don't i don't know that it could be an issue here i hope that it would never be an issue if it is i hope we have something in place

but they know there's repercussions. Some of my people aren't even local. It's more the big brother. If you have COVID and another lockdown, what are they going to do? How are they going to track you and surveil you when you're supposed to be locked down? And just how much government overreach do you want to give to the government?

I mean, that's another thing.

I've heard a bunch of arguments both ways lately. So, I mean, I'm listening to both sides. And like I say, I'm very open-minded to it, but I still have –

back my mind to that they might make a good point on some of the stuff they raise and so I mean it's it's true and that's and there's one point I do want to clarify it's something that Larry had said about private schools I just want to re-emphasize that I've got I've got a child in all three private schools right now in this city and they do not have AI facial recognition technology right now I know that to be factual so maybe in other areas but our municipality well they have cameras in there for sure because I've actually worked on them So it's not AI facial recognition?

No, no, it's not. But they do have cameras in all of the schools, and they're a lot easily more hacked than a government agency. I just want to point that out.

Drew, in a month's time, how much do you think, how often do you think they'll have to refer to the flock info? I mean, just ballpark, and it won't hold you to it.

Thank you.

And one more thing I'd like to just kind of add, because one thing since I guess we've been on council, some of us a little over a year now, one of the most conflicting things that I've faced is – and I know this is kind of a – maybe it's an off comparison, but maybe you can see the point I'm trying to bring up. It's trying to balance – Personal property, privacy, you know, private property rights. I mean, we have people come up here and ask us for an eight-foot fence, and we tell them no. Right, it's one of the, we're telling people what to do with their property. Now we're telling people how we're gonna protect them. So it's kind of, It's one of those things that it's hard to find that balance. When are we overreaching on restrictions throughout the city on day-to-day life, day-to-day property, what trees you can cut, what fences you can have, and when are we overreaching on, okay, now we're overprotecting you, we're invading your privacy that way. So it's been a really hard thing to navigate. Like I said, I just want to say I'm open. I'm not going to sit up here and defend it 100%. I've tried to find the bad in it. I've tried to find factual bad in it other than the perceived. I'm just – I'm open if anyone wants to send it to me.

And I would like to maybe have a presentation, maybe not every case, but just kind of give some examples of how the flock cameras have – help solve crimes or maybe save lives or anything else to people can see the good side too because because the the problem with anything is The argument against is almost always going to be louder than the argument for because those people are going to be on the mission so I think we need the positives to be Announced also because the other side is gonna definitely beat it until they get people on their team. I

And maybe one more thing. I knew when I was on the website, and this will be something I'll reach out to Chief Kingston on, is certain municipalities, they can request access to our data. We can authorize them to tap into the data we've collected, I'm pretty sure. So one thing I'd like to see is if another department has somebody who violated the privileges even extended out to them to where we don't authorize them access to our data that was something that That's the one area that kind of was gray with me at the moment. So I was going to reach out to him on that anyway to see what's in place there and if there's a way to do that. I know it is. I know they have to request access and give it to them. But if we can have a database of people, we don't want to have it because maybe they don't have police officers like we do or leadership like we do.

And is it them getting access to it, or are we providing the information to them?

So I think that's, from my understanding, it's the data that's collected as far as what license plates we're paying, they can have access to it. Drew, you're the administrator. How do we handle it? Have we had any requests in the past?

You're the FLOC administrator, right? So how do we handle that with other municipalities or other agencies? Have we had that come up yet? And is that something that's addressed in our policies and procedures?

My only or main concern is having everyone in the PD having access to it. I don't see the need for everyone. I see one through three, our admin, maybe our shift supervisors and CID, but every patrol officer having access to it. I know Alvin mentioned there's different restrictions, different levels, but that's where my personal concern is because if I'm a new officer and I have access to it, I may just, get curious one day and just start playing around or whatnot with it and to me that's easily i'm just saying is that your fingertips right it should be a case number or something too then right so if there's an issue in a case then that's a reason to yeah correct a reason do we know that for factual though or is that when it or is that when it comes up in the audience that someone was access to it that shouldn't maybe have access to that certain

That should all be addressed in the SOP. Except we have it on file. Who wrote the SOP?

Okay.

And I believe in addition to our audit process and what we're doing, auditing who's accessing it, I think FLOC has realized that there's potential for municipalities to abuse it, and they've built in automatic audit log so if someone's looking up something frequently continuously it'll get flagged and it can pick out abuse so I'm pretty sure I saw that they added that future recently so it's that was gonna be my next question I mean like you read water meters in the system if this gets a real high reading one month it should flag it and say hey check it'll it'll flag it for that audit and they'll lock them out I'm pretty sure until it's reviewed so they built something in for protections at the municipal or local level good conversation I think it needs to be had you know it might be uncomfortable but it needs to be had we need to make sure everybody knows what's going on any other discussion vote the motion we did have a motion by councilman Smith and a second by councilwoman Moynan there's no other discussion I'll call for a vote

Aye. Aye.

Nay.

Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries six to one. Okay, we'll move on to agenda item 2A, a motion to adjourn the special meeting of September 8th, 2026. Motion. Motion by Councilman Smith. Do I have a second?

Going in seconds.

Any discussion? Vote the motion.

Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries 7-0. Motion is adjourned.

You're back.