Board of Mayor & Commissioners - Regular Meeting

All right.

Hello, everyone. I can have your attention. All right. This is the City of Avondale Estates Board of Mayor Commissioners. This is our regular meeting. It's June 24th, 2026. Wait a minute. We're supposed to do the public hearing first. Where's the Oh, my bad. Okay. City of Amarillo Estates, Board of Mayor and Commissioners, this is special call meeting, public hearing number two. It's June 24th, 2026. It's 530. I'd like to call the meeting to order. We have an agenda before us. Do I have a motion to adopt?

That was Lida. Do I have a second?

Second. That was Mike. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. All right. This is millage rate public hearing number two. We are here to receive public comment from any and all of you. We would just like to set a limit of three minutes per person. There's no pro or con as in a zoning hearing. It's just you can say anything. whatever you want in three minutes. We're going to tentatively cap it at 45, but if there's more comments, then we'll just go longer, okay? We are tentatively setting the millage rate at 9.55 at this point, okay? But there will be a vote later. That may change. Anything you want to add?

Just a couple of things. One, just to remind the board that during the public hearing, y'all are free to talk and on the matter for the work session item that is to follow tonight and that during that item will be a presentation explaining how millage rates work, understanding how they are used to generate property tax revenue for the city. So that will happen tonight in the work session.

Okay, so, all right, I'd like to open it up now. If you could just, if you can, approach the podium, name and address. If you can't, we'll get you a mic or something. And then also online. All right.

All right.

Hi, Neil DeCruz, 538 Stratford Green. I spoke yesterday. Slight misunderstanding of what I was trying to say, but I would encourage a consideration of adopting a lower millage rate for the future simply because I believe the estimate is with increased property values across the board, it would be probably about an average of a 10% increase on everybody. Not guaranteed for everybody. There will be variants, obviously. But a lot of people are struggling. It's bad everywhere. It's bad for the city. It's bad. So any kind of relief might be helpful, even if it's still an increase, but less of an increase. So just strongly consider that, please.

Thank you, sir. Yes, Bill.

Bill Hover, 89 Berkeley Road. I want to speak in support of the 955 village rate and also would encourage consideration of raising it in order to increase the operation, increase the capital works program. I will say that for my own perspective, our own property taxes have gone up substantially, in large part because of the expiration of a frozen assessment because of an earlier year challenge. But regardless, even with that increase, I am looking at basically property taxes that average about, at a 9.55 rate, average about $6.66 a day, which I think is not an unreasonable amount to pay for the city services and the quality of city services that we get. So keep it the same or get no higher. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, any unlock? Any, okay.

It's been 15, 32, 43, wheelchair drive. I actually wanted to wait to hear from more people before I spoke. It's great to see so many people out. And the first thing I would say is, Think about saying something came for a reason. It's really important to speak up. So with some dismay, I read the documents from the city, once again, contemplating allowing a substantial increase in taxes in a time when, as the first speaker said, I'm sorry, I didn't get your name, so many people are suffering. This is way above the rate of inflation. And, you know, many good things have happened. This is not about opposition to development or criticism of anything that's going on or anything else. But our goals as a city are to allow the people who have lived here for decades, many for generations, to be able to stay here for their kids, even if they don't have two big corporate jobs, to be able to live here somewhere. And for that, we have to have some attention to keeping things affordable. Also for people who are not in the very upper end of the income spectrums. And I mean, we all know what's happened to the real estate market and it has its pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, most of those pluses for long-term residents are only realized when they leave. And this is a major factor. I've seen neighbors after neighbors being forced to move. I've seen people pressed out. Our tax rate is really high relative to, I'm not a numbers person. Somebody else should do that part, okay? But, you know, the costs that we're bearing are really, really high for people. And even if for some people, you look at those numbers on the examples given and you think, oh, it's only a few hundred dollars a year, you know, that means a lot to people. Wow. The gas is costing what it costs when they're looking at increased costs for kids, for school, for everything, right? And so this is really, you know, maybe you do need to have some kind of increase to keep with inflation. Although I will note that the raise this year was well above the rate of inflation. I think some kind of attention to... The spirit that's conveyed by raising the taxes year after year on the part of the commission really needs some attention. And I really, really encourage you to roll back the taxes in the name of the community and to figure out if belt tightening is necessary to go ahead and do that. Thank you. Thank you.

Good evening, guys. How are you doing? Lawrence Shaw, 3 Clarendon Avenue. When you're looking at the bottom line, there's two ways you can really affect it. One, bring in more money. The other one is control costs. So we're talking about increasing taxes. That's the top end. That's going to bring in more money. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't take a look at controlling costs as well, which means that when we're negotiating with vendors, We're looking at spending certain things. We have to take really a critical business eye to scrutinizing what we're paying for things. So I would ask that each of you would consider that when we're in city government. We would consider that and really scrutinize what we're paying for things because that's another way we can control the bottom line.

So that's what I was saying. Okay. Lawrence, go ahead.

Okay. Oh, yeah. Good afternoon. Hello.

Hi, I'm Richard Joseph. I live at 167 Locust Street, and I'm here to encourage the board to consider not increasing the millage rate for this year. Last year, I retired, and I know that there are many other retirees in the city who are struggling to retain their residences. I've been a resident since 1991 of Avondale Estates, and many retirees have lived here a long time. and they're struggling and one of the factors that makes it difficult for them is property taxes. And we know it's a statewide issue and the General Assembly keeps talking about it. They don't do anything about it. Mr. Shaw happened to reflect something I had in mind. I'm not familiar with any discussions or haven't heard any discussions about efficiencies and ways to cut costs. For example, When the city moved to Arrow for waste removal, that was to represent some sort of cost saving. There was some reason for doing it. How is that reflected? How have any other changes made? How are they reflected in the budget where the commission can honestly say, We've become more efficient, but we still need this money. So I think Mr. Shaw made an excellent point. And until we have a real discussion about efficiencies and managing costs and the effect that this will have, particularly on retired people who have been a longtime asset to this community, I would encourage the board to consider keeping the millage rate as it is now.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, anyone online?

Okay.

Anyone else in the audience this evening? Always look for Henry over there. There he is. You're not sitting around the corner, man. I was like, sorry. All right. Seeing no other comment, I'm going to bring it back up here and close public comment. Any comments up here? Okay.

I'll say thank you to everybody for coming today and letting us know how you feel about this. Thank you.

Okay. so with that um do i have a motion to adjourn i was why did i do i have a second second mic on favor say aye aye aye anybody need a break no okay okay all right so this is city of avondale state's board of mayor commissioners this is our regular meeting it's june 24 2026 it's now 543. I'd like to call the meeting to order. We have an agenda before us. Do I have a motion to adopt? So moved. That was Graham. Do I have a second? That's Lida. All in favor say aye. Aye. Commissioner comments. We will start down there with Commissioner Steadman.

Well, I want to thank you all for coming tonight. We're hearing from you more and hopefully informing you more. I would like to say that you have two more opportunities to comment. One is after this, and again, after the work session, after we've discussed some of the millage rate again. I also wanted to mention that I held a commissioner meetup, I guess you'd call it, or something at the Lost Druid. last week, and I was very pleased with the attendance, and I think the people there were pleased to have an opportunity to speak about their concerns and share information with me, and I thought it was really positive. So I appreciate everybody that came, and that's all I have for this evening.

Thank you. Mr. Louis.

on Monday, and I'm going to ask for help from Shannon. We have another comprehensive plan session at here at 5 30 5 30. i forget what we're calling this session but it's part of the it's priority setting comprehensive plan okay a priority setting so it's yet another opportunity for the public to attend get to meet each other and participate and um uh be part of the comprehensive planning process which is the part of everything you have to plan to know where you're headed this would be a lot more work sessions

it's monday at 5 30 here in this room a lot more work session individual tables dialogue so it's different from what we've done previously so yes please come thank you i'm

Good. Thanks again to everybody for coming. I hope we see robust attendance for all of our meetings. It's really an opportunity for everybody to see how the city operates, how we operate, and give you insight of why we make the decisions we make. So I encourage everybody to please continue to attend these meetings. They're always informative and you'll find that a lot of things that we do or it's very deliberative and after a lot of discussions. So, because it's, it's, you know, we have lots of sessions, lots of discussions. So I encourage everybody to please, please continue to attend. Tell your, tell your fellow residents that, you know, We encourage as many people as we can. We'd like to build these seats. This is always one of the most well-attended meetings that we always have. And I just would invite everybody to please continue to support everybody coming and telling us how you feel. So thank you. Thank you. You're a pro too?

Uh, for me tonight, just a couple of things. Um, I'm going to also have a commissioner chat coming up in July, July 15th, uh, 1130 to one. So you can bring a lunch. Um, it's, uh, it'll be in this room. Uh, it's basically just a nice casual conversation, probably similar to what commissioner Steadman had the other night. Um, and it's, uh, it'll be myself and commissioner Suazo. So bring your questions, complaints, concerns, all that kind of stuff. Um, I'd love it if everybody came. And then just with the 4th of July coming up, I want to kind of give a little bit of thanks to our city staff, starting with our public works and our police department and even our administration staff. It's been told to me that that's an all hands on deck day. And so it's our city staff really gives up their holiday to make sure our holiday is great. So, you know, Most everybody's probably experienced the 4th of July in Avondale, but it's really a lot of fun. So I look forward to seeing everybody at the parade and the fireworks show. That's it for me.

Well, thank you. Well, I have nothing to add this evening. Mr. Manager?

Yes, several announcements. This Saturday, the Avondale Estates Police Department is hosting a golf cart rodeo from 8 a.m. to noon at Gospel Hope Church. Come out and get your golf cart inspected and registered for free. Drivers can test their driving skills on the cone-lined course. Complimentary pizza will be provided by Donato's. Additionally, Life South will be hosting a blood drive alongside the event. And thanks to Commissioner Rainey for lending his golf cart to the calls so that we could make some promotional materials and begin releasing those throughout the remainder of the week. And y'all have spoken about it already tonight, but before our next regular meeting, we will be gearing up to celebrate the nation's 250th birthday. We'll start the 4th of July again with the annual parade that will run from the DeKalb School of the Arts all the way down Clarendon to South Avondale Road. The parade will step off at 10 a.m. And fireworks are returning this year, but to a new location. So bring your blankets for fun, for a fun festive fourth on the field of the Napoleon B. Cobb Stadium, formerly Avondale Stadium, located at 1192 Clarendon Avenue behind the DeKalb School of the Arts. Entry will be on Berkeley Road and gates will open at 7. There will be free popcorn and and cotton candy, DJs, face painters, entertainment, and food beverages available for purchase from Skips and Slim Thick Vegan. No alcoholic beverages will be allowed on DeKalb County School property, and attendees will have to go through the normal DeKalb County School security entry protocol. All items brought into Cobb Stadium will be searched. Check out the city's webpage for more information on golf cart parking, a bike valet, accessible vehicular parking, street closures, and what will be allowed into the stadium. We're looking forward to another great 4th of July here in Avondale and hope everybody can make it out to the celebration. And last but not least, please help us welcome Last Dance to the Tudor Village with a ribbon-cutting this Friday at 3 p.m. The city's newest restaurant is bringing a blissful entanglement of creativity to Avondale Estates with farm-to-table sourcing and skilled pairings. Oh, pairing skilled technique with a playful edge. My apologies. Got to get that right. But that's it for me tonight.

Well, thank you. And that just, you know, I hope all of you at the 4th of July Parade and Fireworks were really happy to have those fireworks back in Avondale. And again, I would just like to thank the DeKalb County Board of Education and the principal of DSA for working with us to make that happen. So I'm happy to have those back. And I think it's going to be a really great venue and hope we can keep doing it there. It seems to be working out. We did a lot of work to get there and I hope to see you all there. Okay. So that's it for me. Oh, turn it down?

Yeah.

Okay. All right. Public comment. Opening up public comment.

Jan. What would it be?

Oh, hold on. Sorry.

No, I'm sorry. I'm Jan Hover, 89, Berkeley Road.

And I just read an article in the paper about the The new website, Avondale, FYI, says that. And I just want to focus tonight, I know I don't have much time, on the apparent anonymity of the comment voiced on this site and on the possible purposes for this anonymity. First, in many instances, posing comments as anonymous can serve a deceptive purpose. It can make it seem that many people are talking when there might be in actual fact only three or four, for instance. If that is not the case with the LFYI, the site should do well to identify contributors. Second, anonymity can make statements seem like fact as opposed to opinion. An unexplorated comment can give the effect of an objective voice, masking the fact that the comment is coming from an individual's subjective perspective. Finally, I do think anonymity is an act lacking courage. The question arises, what are contributors afraid of? At any rate, I think the anonymity does not do a service to the site

Thank you.

Richard Joseph, 167 Locust Street. A resident since 1991. I too would like to address comments made with respect to the Avondale FYI substack. This is a test of leadership for this commission. Now, I don't intend to lecture anybody about what leadership is, but to challenge this mayor and this board to exercise true leadership in the spirit of being public servants. It's not sufficient to criticize or to downgrade criticism you don't like by calling it anonymous or by questioning the motivations of the people who are making the comments. What is leadership is to try to understand what is behind the comments. I know as a longtime resident that their significant amount of our population feels alienated and disappointed with the city government. And on top of that, insulted because they're being asked to pay more for it. So my challenge to this board and this board of commissioners and to you, Mr. Mayor, is to try to understand what is behind it, to offer facts in rebuttal, to address it maturely and factually, and to try to ascertain and deal with the sentiment that is behind these comments. I've not posted anything on Avondale F5, but I have read the postings. If I do post something on Avondale FYI, I assure you I won't be anonymous. Thank you.

Thank you.

Bill Hover, 89 Berkley Road. As a long, well, medium time resident, I haven't been here since 94. I want to express that having attended numerous meetings on an area-to-the-basis including the budget retreat, which is a day-long exercise and number crunching that will put you to sleep if you don't have a shop object that will keep you awake. But thanks to staff for how that goes and the way it's presented. I will express my gratitude for the way both the city and the Board of Mayor and Commissioners have been very open about what they do and how they do it. I think that many people that don't understand the way the city works is in large part because they're not coming to the meetings and attending and listening. Out of that, the other thing I wanted to bring up is I've noticed that since the road diet, there's still a sign up that expresses a right turn only lane for as you approach eastbound on College Avenue to turn around to Clarendon. And since that lane doesn't exist, maybe that sign should be taken down. All right. Thank you.

No, thank you.

Matthew Cansberry, 817 Stratford. I'm not sure how to approach this, but I'm just going to sort of read what I wrote this afternoon. I am very concerned about the comments made by current manager and city elected officials of Avondale Estates regarding the current and recent postings of sub-staff. In my 30 years of being a direct official, seldom have I seen such behavior in a public arena as was displayed at the last meeting attended by Mayor Jonathan Elmore. I was aghast at his comments then, as well as those quoted in a recent publication, and continue to be concerned. As a longtime attendee, of the board and mayor and commissions. I have witnessed the escalation of this respect for members of the board and the mayor commission show to the residents of Avondale, and the same from the residents to a certain point. I've also noticed that there is some disrespect amongst each other, y'all, to other members of your group. That's very disheartening. I think it's time for us to come to terms that each one of you are an elected official. Each one of you have a right to ask questions. Each one of you have a right to talk to us, but you need to talk to us in a respectful manner and you need to talk to each other. I don't know if it's a symptom of our society today or what, but I have attended these meetings for a long time and it is sliding downhill quickly. That's that, that's y'all's decision. I'm also concerned, topic number two, about the public hearing scheduled for the tax digest. It seems like it was very tight. I understand the mayor was traveling and that he requested that the schedule be altered. And then something happened two weeks ago where we couldn't hear a discussion, we being the public about this. So I think that we're asking questions Without really having enough education to ask the questions. I don't know what we can do at this point. But I think this is a consideration for the future and maybe even move the timing of our budget cycle that might help with some of these issues. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

Hi, everyone. I'm Carol Reimer, 15th Clearington Place, and I'm probably the longest resident in the room since 1964. And a lot in that boat, okay. And I've also served as a commissioner some 20 years ago. I felt like I learned more as a city commissioner than I did in 20 years in human resources and 25 years in real estate. But I learned the most important thing is the way we work together. We didn't always agree. I mean, we're like you guys. Sometimes we were three, two. Sometimes we were four, one in our boats. But I feel like what I learned from the experience was sometimes I thought I knew what I was going to do. I thought I had read everything. I'd done quite a bit of homework. And then a topic would come up. That brought us all to further discussion. And I felt like it was really important at that point to listen to the people that voted for us and not just listen to each other. So at that point, I still remember literally the condos of Batonville State. The people were very upset because we were going to vote on the cell phone tower. And we felt like we knew what we were going to do. We'd done our homework. And then the room was like this, was filled. And it takes controversy sometimes to fill a room, as you've learned tonight. But I encourage you, when you think you know which direction you're going, I think you owe it to the people who voted for you to listen to their comments. If they're telling you like me, I'm seeing lots of older people move away because they can't afford to pay the taxes in the city of Avondale. That's just, that's just the way it is. But it doesn't matter whether you're voting for taxes or if you're voting for this, you know, anonymity, this Avondale, the different diverse opinions that are going on. I think everybody should. bring their opinions to the podium, put it on the table. And I'll be the first one to say when I read a few of the comments that I was appalled. I would have literally as a city commissioner been in a chambers having a meeting about the professional courtesy that our city manager did not portray to one of our commissioners. And it really, it took me back to literally being back there and listening to one of my good friends who was a commissioner at the same time, Jimmy Neumann hollered at me and used the F word in chambers and said, Well, F you, Reimer. Why did you, you know? And I said, you know, Jimmy, I listened to the people that elected me. And so did John Lawson. And we voted against the cell phone tower. So I'm just encouraging you to listen to each other with professional courtesy. I don't want to hear that somebody was approached after a meeting. You can do it in chambers. If you have an issue with somebody, whether it's management or VOMC, I think it should be done in a professional, courteous manner behind closed doors. And that's all I have to say.

Well, thank you. And I'm not just responding just in general, but I agree. We do. And we have to check ourselves. And sometimes we get checked. We all need to maintain professionalism and courtesy and respect. And so, no, thank you.

uh liz and then the person online please stay online if you do uh the person online go ahead liz i think stacy yeah thanks liz hey y'all stacy beardon 47 clarendon um i guess two different topics the first is we've had two public hearings before any public discussion from the board on this year's millage rate and the rationale for it The June 11 news release actually said, public hearings are held to allow public input on the level of service desired by residents and businesses, as well as the millage rate necessary to maintain those services. but really taxpayers should be able to expect that they can be informed and shown justification for a 10 increase so i'm very hopeful that what's on the upcoming agenda item we're finally going to hear from y'all and staff on exactly what that rationale is And I guess the second question, because there is another stormwater update and talk about downtown, a downtown project. I'm sure I'm blind, but I'm having some difficulty finding kind of that overall stormwater project list. This past week's storm certainly brought home the fact that I know Clarendon is way down the list, but it'd be great to know where we all are. Thanks.

You mean on stormwater on Clarendon?

No, there was a list that had been created based on priority order for stormwater repairs and projects. And I thought at one time that was online. I know a lot of time was put into it by staff. It'd just be great to be able to refer to that. I'm sure I'm blind, but I couldn't find it. And I know there was a heck of a lot of water that was flowing in front of my house. Just curious where we are, even though I know it's pretty far down the list.

Okay. All right. Thank you.

Yeah, I think she's referring to the stormwater priority plan that we produced several years ago. And then from that plan, we have built those projects into our capital program. So all of those priority projects that were listed in that plan are a part of our current capital program unless they've already been completed.

Okay, thank you. All right, Liz.

So I guess I've missed some real fireworks around this because while I've read some of these posts, I'm also not a participant, while I've read some of these posts, apparently there was a lot happening here. And I'm listening to a lot of these comments, Carol, Kathy, with some real dismay. So... I just like to speak to the larger issues around this myself, because these are concerns that I've spoken to the board about, to the community about over the years a lot of times. And it does have to do with the question of democracy. It's become difficult to disagree in ways that are calm and professional and effective in many ways, we all know this. It's hard times in the political environment, but we've also seen that emerge here. When I moved to Avondale in 2015, a blink in the eye ago, for those of you who are long-term residents, this was a place with a lot of community engagement, a lot of voices, meetings that were at least this full on a regular basis and a lot of communication and back and forth and a real open flow between the board and the community. And that has changed a lot over time. The communication policy has certainly restricted it. But there's also the issue that when people do come and they do speak, and even when Many, many people come and speak out against large changes, for instance, violations of our zoning policy. It doesn't necessarily translate into feeling heard. and action that reflects what seems to be a large-scale will of the community. So I think that's an issue that people are not participating, that the board also really needs to take some responsibility for. It's fine to reach out and have people come and air their complaints, but it's another thing to actually genuinely welcome differences and other voices. So one of the things that happens on a regular basis, and I did read the post on this Substack, whatever it's called, about the zoning, about the rate increase that we're discussing, right? And there, the issue is that they say people feel People feel that they are being called anti-development if they make any criticisms. I have also experienced that on multiple occasions. And people who care about the city and want the best and want the city to grow and thrive and disagree about many things, big things, small things, cell phone towers, et cetera. And I think it would behoove the board both to listen better and to translate some of those things into changed votes. And also to just learn that when people disagree, it's okay. It's part of how things are. And I think that's the bottom line is that the board needs to set an example about that, that we need to have reasoned discussion. I think if people turn to anonymity, it's a sign of serious problems in the community. And I agree with the comment about leadership. I think that the issue is not that people are speaking anonymously, but that people feel the need to speak anonymously. And that's a leadership issue. Thank you.

We're good. I got somebody else on line. I can't see them.

Joni.

Joni, you might need to unmute.

Okay, am I unmuted?

You are now.

Okay. Joni's a caller, 3316 Wiltshire Drive. And I just, my husband and I would like to give a shout out to Public Works because on Thursday night, we had a huge limb fall on the corner of Wiltshire and Nottingham. It blocked the road. We called 911 and Avondale Officer Payne and was unable to really do much. But then at about 9.30, 10 o'clock, Avondale Public Works showed up, and they took the limb down, they got rid of the limb, and they made the street safe. So I wish I had gotten the name of the gentleman who came, but it was the night before a holiday, and just a huge thank you to our Public Works. So thanks.

Well, thank you. Thank you, Joni. You're welcome. OK. All right. Other public comment? Nobody else online. OK. I'm going to close public comment, bring it back up here. All right. So item number five. We have here a proclamation by the City of Avondale Estates recognizing National Pollinator Week. If you're okay with it, I'd rather not read the whole thing. If you really want me to, I will. If you love the sound of my voice, I don't. But anyway, I would like to declare, proclaim the week of June 21st through June 27th, 2026 is our city's observance of National Pollinator Week. And thank you. Is anyone here on behalf of that organization? Sometimes they are. We just like to take pictures and stuff. So anyway, National Pollinator Week. So anyway, I'll sign this. Any comments on that up here? Thank you, pollinators. We like the bees. Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. Next item. Item number six. We have before us the meeting minutes of the June 10th, 2026 regular meeting and the June 10th, 2026 work session. Do I have a motion to engross the minutes? That's Louie Suazo. Do I have a second? That's Lida. All of you say aye. Aye. Okay. Okay, all right, first really item of business we have, hold on one second. Okay, I just like to always read the title of the resolution. We have before us a resolution by the City of Avondale Estates rescinding its prior authorization of the exercise of the power of eminent domain regarding the property known as 143 Maple Street. Do I have a motion to adopt? So moved. That was Graham. Do I have a second?

Second.

That was Mike. Mr. Manager? Yes. So in the fall of last year, the board adopted a resolution authorizing the city to move forward with an eminent domain acquisition at 143 Maple for the purposes of constructing the Washington Street extension segment. After some engineering was done with a development partner in the area, it was determined that the cost to build that extension on that road would be too prohibitive and much less expensive to build it just to the south on property that is owned by the developer. So because of that decision, The need to exercise the power of eminent domain at 143 Maple no longer exists, and the property owner had come before the board at a previous meeting asking the board to consider rescinding that resolution, so that's why we're here tonight.

Any comments, questions up here? Any comments, questions out there? Yes.

Neil, just a question because saving money, great. Little concern with when a developer is offering their land. Does that seem like, do you have all the details available or like costs for that? Like how much money savings we had and also how much was paid for the developer or their land? Just if that's something that is available, I don't, It's just, like you said, saving the city money is great. I just... I don't remember.

We're basically not going to do it. So there's not going to be a... No, no, I understand. But the project is moving, so you're not doing it at all. We're not going to...

Imminent domain.

Yes, yes.

I understand that. That's fine. And it's also saving the city money according to the city manager. Yes. And that's great. I'm just curious. The details of that, are they available for people to see? I believe they are.

Is that like through... You would have to get with the city manager. I don't know exactly where that is. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. It... You could also fill out a card, and that'll initiate, you know, also initiate a response. Okay.

Okay.

Any other comments? Oh, wait, that's it. That one. All right.

All good?

No more comments? All right. Bring it back for a vote. All in favor say aye. Aye. That's five. Yep. Okay. Did we make a motion? Yeah, I did. I'm sorry. Okay. Item number eight. This is the first read of an ordinance to set the millage rate for the tax year 2026. This is first read. We are not voting. We'll have another public hearing the 30th at at 6 o'clock, after which there will be the final vote. Okay, and we will be talking about this in the work session, but this is the first read as required by our ordinance. We are not voting.

Okay.

Any additional comments up here? Any... Okay. All right. So that concludes the regular meeting. Do I have a motion to adjourn? Ms. Lida, do I have a second? Second. That's Mike. All in favor say aye. Aye. If you don't know, we've kind of adopted a little bit of a new thing. We're going to take a break, about a 10-minute break. It is now 6.17. We'll be back at 6.27. We will move down to the table for the work session. You are all welcome to join, and I encourage you to do so.

All right. 10-minute break. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

All right. This is City of Avondale State for their Commissioner's Work Session. It's June 24th, 2026. It's 629. I'd like to call the meeting to order. Before we adopt the agenda, I would like to make a motion to add an executive session to discuss personnel. So, that was Mike. Do I have a second? Second. That was Graham. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. We will add that little item. Number eight, after public comment, adjournment becomes nine. Okay, so let's get started. All right, this is a... Oh, wait. So, do I have a motion to adopt the agenda as amended?

As amended.

That was lightened. Do I have a second? Second. Does Graham or whoever say aye? Aye. Okay, got that done. All right, so this is a continued discussion of the 2026 Preliminary Tax Digest and Millage Rate.

Yes, so my apologies for being absent at the. June 10th meeting unfortunately. Had a family emergency that I had to deal with. So I was hoping to give this presentation at that meeting prior to the public hearing schedule. Unfortunately, it got put back to tonight. So our apologies for that. Some of you who have been attending meetings for years have seen this presentation in one form or another, but it has been updated for the current calendar year. Again, another set of apologies due for not being able to use our new fancy touchscreen big screen. So please turn your attention to the television sets that are behind and in front of you. And of course, you know, if you all need me to repeat something, I'm happy to do so because I know it's going to be a little more difficult to read. The board should have this presentation in its packet. So if you all want to follow along, please do. So first slide, please, Karina. Did that not happen anymore? No. There we go. Okay. So first things first, in order for the city to develop its financial plan, which is essentially a two-stage process, which is budget setting and millage setting, the city needs to understand what resources it needs to operate effectively and efficiently to pay for operations and any prior commitments that we have made like debt service. Then we also need to understand what resources are needed to maintain and update equipment, property, and vehicles, and also what, if any, new projects or strategic investments the city wants to pursue. Before we go to the next slide, I think it is important to let the public know this, that we operate in our careers. So we actually adopt the calendar year budget, so the 26, what we're operating in right now, prior to the turn of the calendar. So the adoption happens in December of the previous year for the coming fiscal year. So our budget that we're considering the village rate for next week has already been adopted. So the plan, in essence, has been formulated. And now, based on the digest, which is the collection of property values in the city, the board sets a village rate to determine how much revenue is needed to raise for the purposes of fulfilling the budget that it's already adopted. Okay, so how do we get there? Millage, maybe that doesn't make sense. It's not the easiest word to understand in real terms. So think of the millage rate as the property tax rate. So it is the multiplier that we use to apply to a property's assessed value to determine of assessed property value. So the multiplier you would use in a math scenario is 0.001. That is what a mill is. That's the equivalent of a mill when you're doing this calculation. So the city's existing millage rate, meaning what was adopted in 2025, in June of 2025, and the city's tentative millage rate, to establish the basis for the hearings process and setting the rate for this coming year is 9.55 bills. So for the purposes of applying that mathematically, you use the multiplier 00955. Okay, so what do you multiply that against? And that is your property's assessed value. Now, your property has two values. value of that property. One is the appraisal value. So your appraisal value is essentially what the county determines to be the market value of the property itself. So let's just say you've got what you anticipate is a $1 million home and the county says, we agree with you and we value your home at $1 million. That is the appraisal value. The assessed value, which is the value used to multiply against the millage rate to get your property tax responsibility, is 40% of that appraised value. So now that $1 million home is assessed at $400,000 and you apply that millage multiplier to that to determine the responsibility. We've also given you, I didn't even need to use the $1 million because we've got an example on the slides itself. So if you'll follow along with me, this is how you arrive at the calculation. Let's just say there is a home that is appraised at $600,000. The assessed value of that $600,000 appraised home is 40% of that appraisal value, so $240,000. You take that $240,000 assessed value, multiply it by your billage rate, and that becomes your property tax responsibility. So in this case, if you take that assessment of $240,000, multiply it by the 955 billage rate, you get an outcome of $2,292. So I kind of spoke on this before, but I think it's important to kind of go through the millage and budget timeline in an elementary way so y'all can understand exactly when and why we do the things we do. So in May of each year, the city receives the preliminary tax digest. And the preliminary tax digest is essentially a, So we receive that. That forms our basis of knowledge to understand what a given millage rate will generate in revenue from the valuation of those profits. So we have to wait until June following the receipt of the tax digest, the preliminary tax digest, In order to understand how much millage would be necessary in order to generate the revenue, we need to fulfill the obligations that we've made in the budget unless we also decide to amend the budget to reduce those obligations or increase those obligations. Either way. And so... One process I didn't put in here, which I think is very important to talk about, is after property owners receive their notice of valuation each year from the county, because the county is the organization responsible for establishing the property values, the county is also responsible for billing each property and collecting each property, and then they actually transmit the collected revenues back to us. So in between this period or the period that we're in right now, up until the middle of July, the county provides the opportunity via state law to property owners to appeal the valuation that they received in their annual assessment. Once those are heard, it changes valuation of the tax digest. And that final valuation isn't known to us until August of that year. So we're actually setting a millage rate based on a preliminary digest before appeals have occurred. And so we have to, during the budget setting and the millage setting, kind of understand what we anticipate a potential reduction in the tax digest will be because of those appeals and use that prediction in order to make decisions. So in September is kind of the first, you get your bills, the first round of payments is due. In November, the second round of payments comes in. So we receive all of that property tax revenue the year. So we're using the prior year's revenues and any other financial resources we have on hand to fulfill the year's expenditures up until that point, and then we backfill with the revenues we receive at the end of the year. And then in December, after we've received the revenues for the year we're currently operating in, we establish the budget for the next year, and then go through the process all over. okay so let's talk about collections um so in 2025 that original digest right projected collections of 4 million 34 134 our budget again which was adopted prior to receipt of the digest Predicted collections of $3,953,495. Now, of course, we had already taken into account in the budget one round of potential loss of value from appeals. And then the actual revenues that we received for property were slightly less than what we budgeted for. So $3.9 million. You can see it up there. Excuse me. $3,995,000. Okay, so what are we looking at in our current draft digest, the preliminary draft digest? We've had some extensive growth in the digest this year. About 20%, I mean, about $20 million is revalued growth. $27 million is new growth. New growth is essentially or home or multifamily or retail establishment comes online. They receive a value and they are considered to be new value or growth. Revaluation value is a change in the value of existing property. Okay. So this year, the gross value of our digest. Now, we'll talk about gross and net here too. The gross value of our digest is listed in that yellow box for you guys to check out. So it's $527,008,855. So that is the exemptions from the value of the property. Now what does that mean? So exemptions exist as a means to de-exempt. reduce the amount of tax that could be generated from that property. So common exemptions are abatements. You may have heard of an abatement. An abatement works where you literally make an agreement with a taxed property to tax them at a rate less than they would otherwise be valued. Other exemptions are like homestead exemptions. So if you own a property and you reside in it, With the passage of SB 33 this past legislative session, which has been subsequently confined into law, there is now a floating homestead exemption that will exist not this year, this year is the base year, each subsequent tax year, which reduces the amount of the assessed value of a homesteaded property from the appraised value of a homesteaded property. So that's what we're talking about when we're talking about exemptions. So in our draft digest right now, we have calculated exemptions of $19,659,979. which then gives you a net digest of $507,348,876. That is the total that you apply the millage rate to in order to get your estimated generated revenue from property tax. So in our current digest at our current millage rate, we are projecting... $4,845,182 to be generated from the digest, the preliminary digest. We had budgeted in this current year's budgeted a collection of 4.3 million necessary to fulfill the obligations of the budget itself. However, and I think, let me make sure, yes, I'll transition to it on the next slide. And go ahead, Karina. All right. Let me take you through what happens during the appeals process and the collections process of tax revenue that has an impact on the amount of revenue we eventually generate. So if y'all remember, our final digest 25, we said it earlier, was $4,044,134. We budgeted $3,495, and we collected $3.9 million in some change, right? So you see there you had a difference of 3.4% from the final digest, which already took into account some reduced values and appeals, and then which is a 2.2% difference from what we budget. Okay, there is another thing in addition to appeals that will reduce the amount of revenue that is collected for operations in the city, and that is what we call delinquency. We are very fortunate in Avondale Estates to have a very minor or low delinquency rate. It's usually about 1.5% a year, meaning that we collect about 98.5% of all property taxes billed for. So we already billed in a 1.5% reduction off the bat from what the digest says we're gonna collect and use that in order to calculate what we need to set our budget revenue projections at the next year. And so, let me take you kind of through, this isn't part of the presentation, this is gonna become the reality of the situation that we find ourselves in today. So, first I wanted to maybe address another question that isn't in this presentation, but that we've heard brought up in public hearings multiple times over the course of the year, is the notice of tax increase that we have to publish. So the state makes each municipality publish a taxation notice every year. And it basically If you're using the same millage rate or you're proposing to use the same millage rate as you did the year prior and everything happens as expected from existing valuated properties that have been reassessed for the coming year, you would expect to collect X amount of dollars in additional revenue. So this year, even though we have a tentative millage rate that is exactly the same as the previous millage rate, the state requires us to say, we anticipate to generate 10.2% more revenue from the properties that existed the year prior. That is not an average per household, and that does not get applied to each household or property equally. So when we're advertising a 10.2% increase, expected increase in revenue from properties that already exist. Okay. Not necessarily the new growth. All right. So that being said, some properties will have valuations that increase significantly higher than 10%. I think Bill Hover said during his public comment that he experienced a significant increase coming off of a freeze. That is commonplace. So when a property appeals their valuation to the county, they get a three-year freeze on that valuation. But then once that freeze is over, the county says, well, we have to make up for the lack of revenue we produced off of that property that's been growing in value. So There tends to be a higher escalation on properties coming off of a freeze than properties who weren't previously frozen. In our case this year, most of the growth reflected in our tax digest is in our commercial area. the major source of commercial revenue. We also have some commercial revenue that is generated at the west end of town where Covington and Memorial meet. And then, of course, we have the mighty Sherwin-Williams south end of Clarendon. So those are commercial properties, right? We had a significant number of commercial properties get revalued or come online reflected in this digest. And most of the growth in the expected revenue is And a significant amount of that is actually coming from properties located within our tax allocation district, known as the TAD, which exists to increase infrastructure development in areas that you're trying to economically development and rid of blight. And those funds are managed by the city's downtown development authority. Okay. So, we, We have done some exploration of the properties that have increased in value and the properties that have decreased in value. We have good news, and this is different than we've been seeing as a trend in our digest, is that 764 properties in the city this year, which is almost half. It's close to half. either stayed at the same value or decreased in value from the previous year. So even though revenue from the digest of existing properties is expected to increase 10%, 764 properties within the city will actually see a the exact same tax bill as the previous year or a reduced tax bill from the previous year. Now, I know that doesn't sit well with folks coming off a freeze whose property increased 25%, but that's how it works. Here's the interesting part of this year's digest, is that given the significant amount of the growth that's coming from our commercial property, the amount of appeals appeals rewarded or reductions in value granted will climb because commercial property owners tend to have more resources to argue for appeals and have been, especially recently, very successful at achieving reduction in value. So, whereas maybe we have a 3.5% difference because of appeals in years past, because a lot of those appeals are coming from residential properties, we're anticipating a greater amount of the reduction of the tax digest this year from appeals because they exist in the commercial area. And quite frankly, some of those properties that have been revalued will most likely be successful because some of those valuations seemingly indicate that new structures were built on property that new structures were not built on. So I say all that to mean a couple of things. That $4,845,000 anticipated revenue generation is going to decrease. And we're thinking about We'll still have that delinquency rate. Hopefully that doesn't grow. Sometimes when economic conditions are in a downturn or we have recession conditions or high inflationary controls, delinquency rates tend to get a little higher. But for the purposes of making recommendations to this body, we're anticipating about a In addition to that, the digest contains a portion of the TAD that's coming from the city above and beyond what we call the TAD base level increment. So that's another several hundred thousand dollars that will actually not go into the general fund, but go into the TAD fund and be paired with the county revenue that is pledged by the county into the TADD fund. So we're really looking more at a collection aligned with what we budgeted for, and we feel confident in those numbers. There's also, again, and I've talked to the board about this a couple of times, there are some political considerations that I think we need to discuss. For those who may not know, You know, I already spoke about SB 33, which was signed into law, which provided for a floating homestead exemption, essentially capping the increase in valuation for all homesteaded properties on an annual basis, which will restrict the revenues that we would normally collect under a non-SP 33 condition. But the legislature didn't seem quite content with that being enough. And when they convened the special legislative session last week to discuss possible redistricting that they ended up tabling, they did try and reintroduce legislation to further eliminate property taxes. And we have a governor's race coming in November with two very different platforms for property taxes. and I don't know, you'll probably seen the commercials for the candidate Jackson. A big part of his platform is eliminating property taxes altogether. So there are some unknowns that we have coming down the pike that I think we need to consider with regards to establishing this year's millage rate. Our recommendation from a staff perspective is to keep the millage rate 9.55 mils, which I'll intend to it all out yourselves. Okay.

I'd like to start. Okay. What is the general rate of inflation?

The rate of inflation in May was 4.2. The inflation for June is anticipated to be like 4849. and climbing. So we are working in an inflationary period that is actually now higher than what we anticipated when we adopted the budget in the center.

All right. And I mean, okay, so last year's budget was $5,647,679. That's not right. This year's budget is $5,866,800. Okay, that's an increase of 3.77%, which I think is pretty good. I think that's a good job.

We did have a 10% increase in property tax in the budget time.

Well, we didn't do that. So our budget increased 3.77%, and as it turns out, I couldn't figure out how they got this number last night, but I think so it turns out If we collected 3,904,460,000 last year actual, and we're looking to collect 4,300,000, that's a 10.13% increase. So... Little point of difference there.

Okay. So the 4.3 number is all of our property tax, which includes prior year property tax, which is essentially collections that were delinquent from the year prior. So the delinquency is not built into the budget. What do we expect? On the budget summary, that 4-3 number, that contains the prior year. So what is the prior year?

Well, pull it up.

And of course, the So our prior year, $89,250. $89,250.

so so we're but we are we're not collecting collecting more than you need is probably not the way to put it um here's where i'm going with this um you know i've been actually thinking this for a bit i mean we're increasing property tax 10.13 inflation looks like it's approaching 3.77%. But I would like to float the idea of maybe it's not really meeting in the middle, but I'd like to float the idea that we take last year's actual increase of 4%, which would come out to $4,060,638. Now, that equates to a village of 0.008, which seems drastic. But here's my thinking on a couple of points. I know we need to collect more for capital. We've all agreed to that. You know, but I think, you know, we are sitting pretty good with our capital budget right now. We know that we've got about $350 million worth of construction that's going to happen over the next five or six years. Now, that's over five or six years And then there's a delay in each of those whenever those get completed to actually get CEOs and get them in the tax roll and get it accounted for and get it on our digest. But we've got some significant growth here. I mean, our digest is $507 million. We're about to bump that up $350 million in the next five or six years. The burn-offs are happening. Well, that's the assessed values.

The 350 is appraised.

Oh, that's right. So you take 40% of that, which would be 140 million. But still, the significant thing, once you apply our current village rate, that's like a million dollars, which, you know, but that's a good chunk of change to service those properties, I think.

Although that's all TAD, right?

Which... And I think we're going to have to talk about that. But for right now, I'm thinking, okay, I know we have capital needs. We just got kicked in shins, in my opinion, with 3%, or, well, whatever, cap, because I think it's really ignorant of the fact that many cities, ours included, rely heavily on property tax, to do what we do. And I don't know what those knuckleheads have in mind, but I mean, what are schools going to do? What are we going to do? I don't see how that's going to work. But if they eliminate property tax entirely, which seems insane to me, but I guess they're going to replace it with some monstrous sales tax or some other kind of tax. And I probably should not say it that way, but I just don't understand how you can just blanket say no property tax and everything's going to be you know, fine and dandy. But I think we're sitting pretty good with our capital fund right now. We are all feeling the effects of inflation. We've got some good development coming down the pike. We've got these abatements burning off. I think that we need to be mindful And I think you should be mindful. I just, I don't, and I know that that 10% increase over the last year is really, there's some capital in there. I understand that. I'm just saying, you know, I've been feeling, I think everybody else has been feeling, I'm not sure, but I just think having a 4% increase in the actual revenue is more in line and maybe it's 5% to match, what is simply the inflation rate, but 4% or 5% is more, to me, what's the word I'm looking for? You don't know. Palatable. I think it's respectful of what we're hearing. I just, and here's really the point I really want to make, and I'm sorry, I'm kind of, it's a lot to take in, but, and I'm sorry you're hearing me from my back, but I think I think in the future, this notion that we maintain a steady millage rate, I'm not sure that's gonna work anymore. I think with this cap, we're gonna have to be more flexible. I anticipate that in the future, we're all gonna be setting a new millage rate every year, and the steadiness of that millage rate is really not gonna mean a whole lot. every year and we don't know what the laws are going to be. I understand what you're saying is you're taking a conservative view that we don't know what the heck's going to happen. We need to keep things the way they are. And I don't think that's, I think that's, you're doing your job as manager to look after the city and our finances and our capital projects and all that. And that's what you're supposed to do. I think what I'm listening to and what I'm feeling is, you know, maybe we need to keep the property tax rate rate increase or whatever in line with inflation in line with our budget um that's it and i and again i think we're going to have to not me i mean whoever it is but we're going to have to think about millage rate every year and this notion of keeping it steady is not going to mean as much because i you know the legislature said okay vote on this cap Okay, wait a minute. We don't like the way you vote. We're just going to make you do it anyway. And who knows what they're going to do next. But I just think that this year we need to consider that. I'm floating that out there. But I think, you know, adjusting the millage rate to where we're collecting only 4% more in property tax, that's my idea. So what do you guys think?

Is all that

Was that coherent enough?

Well, I would like to see us roll back the millage rate. I mean, we've had pretty high taxes for the last five years across the board. It is better for residents this year than it has been in prior years. I think what's important to note is that, you know, if you look at the new-val, re-val rates, You know, we've grown 20%. Some of that's 53% reassessment, 47% is growth. So that growth gives us extra money that's not really factored into that 10.5% because we've truly grown 20%. So I do think there is room to consider rolling back the millage rate. Um, Patrick and I had talked earlier about all this stuff. And at that time we had both kind of agreed that 3% was more of a practical, um, loss as far as, um, uh, a peak due to appeals. But, um, cause as far as I've gone back several years, as far as the history and provided we've talked about the data. So I, I don't know what caused it to be considered higher now. But I did, you know, I did a couple of things. Like I separated the TAD and the general fund. And without the TAD, the general fund is still growing. I mean, the value is still growing 15.94%. Because it goes into a separate fund. Yeah, I mean, the TAD money goes into the TAD. I mean, I understand that part.

I'm still not understanding. Okay, repeat what you said one more time.

I said, without the TAD considered, okay, and just the money that's going into the June, that's why I'm looking at it separately. This money's going into the general fund, and this money's going to be managed by the VDA. Is that your spreadsheet? Yes. Oh. You weren't here when I gave them out. I didn't do the calculation here on the TAD because it's more complicated. because there's a certain portion of this that was the base, which I think was about $13 million. So it's only what's grown since then that goes into the TAD. So a little bit of this will go back in here. But yeah, I do think that we are going to get sufficient income because we have grown 20%. And if you look at this, and this is not different.

We've grown 20%.

This is in the packet that Patrick gave us. Okay, so it's a new valve, revalve. And if you look at us compared to other cities, we did exceptionally this year as far as our increased digest. If you look at the average of the cities with us in there, it's 0.343% was the average. If you take us out, it lowers the rest of them to about 3-something percent. So we've had a lot of growth, and I think that we ought to consider that when thinking about rolling back the military.

Mr. Steadman, just to answer the question that you had, the reason that we increased the appeal differential is because of the nature of the properties that a higher rate. So we will be, we're factoring that in. Because in previous five years, most of our growth has been in the residential revaluations and appeals have been from those residential farmers. That's the wrap-up.

But they don't win too often. I know I didn't. And several people I know did.

That's my point.

The Willis and the Jake appealed in 2024. And they were about 78% of the appeal value. So anyway, I do know that we have, you know, obligations and, but I do feel like, you know, that the fact that we have grown so much should give us an opportunity to not increase by 10%. increased by a smaller percentage.

I'm not opposed to finding a way to reduce the millage, but I just want to make sure that we can meet the obligations of our budget and we still have capital needs, things that we want to get done, things that we need to get done, things that we may not even know about.

We've got two items following this that are new capital, unbudgeted capital needs. And they're approximately cumulatively totaled at $375,000.

And I also don't want to get on it. I know what Mr. Mayor is saying that you can't, we may not be able to have this steady millage like we've enjoyed in the past. It's either been here or we've gone down for a while. So I don't want to go on a roller coaster and cut it this year. Next year, I'll have to go back up. Go back up. Nor do I. I know you mentioned that 700 and something properties remain the same or decreased, which means that their tax bill would be equal to or less than what they made last year with the 955 bill of trade. I don't know. You have to weigh what's, you know, I think having some capability that is good, but, you know, we can figure out a way to do it with a less, you know, smaller military there. That's fine, but I still make the decision to keep our obligations in mind and make long-term too, you know. So it's a hard balance to figure out.

I mean, with the current, say, the military sink, I'm assuming, you know, with your projection, that's satisfying all the capital needs for this year. But you probably already mentioned it, but what in excess of those capital expenditures that we're planning for, or what do we budget? You know, is there a budget excess that... Right, you guys are calculating stuff. So...

If y'all recall at the strategic budget workshop, we ended up, and this speaks to some of the audience, we have been operating at an expenditure level less than we budget, pretty much every year, save one. since I've been here. And what we do is that excess are those savings. We traditionally move the capital at the end of the year. And we discussed that at the budget workshop. We had $53,000 budgeted, which was our which should help us with the discussion that's coming next. And we were also gracious enough to receive a donation of $1 million for capital from Waffle House, which is amazing. I think this year we're not going to save as much on the expenditure side as normal because the inflation rate just keeps going. That helps out. That's kind of the elephant in the room too. I have no clue how much higher inflation may creep. We've all seen beef prices are skyrocketing, energy costs are increasing, oil costs are increasing. I don't know what's going to happen. So I can't guarantee that the same expenditure outcome as last year will happen again this year. However, because of the growth, right, I do think, let's just say we're not considering, you know, the politics. Meaning, like, let's take the governor's race aside, state legislature aside, just working out a FB33, which we know is law. I think we could probably... hit our budgetary goals with no more than a quarter mil reduction. But a quarter mil reduction. We could do. So that just, it becomes up to you guys as to like, you know, what other things you would, you know, if you wanted to reduce it further, what other things would be, we'd probably have to put some stuff on the back of it.

So that's... Well, Louie, you have a chance to chime in. Is there an opportunity to chime in later? Yes. I just was trying to give everybody an equal... Well, just spitballing. Okay. The average between 9.55 and the rollback of 8.672 is 9.156... You know, which is 9.15. You're saying, you know, a quarter mil obviously would be a 9.3.

Yes. And so, for example, health insurance costs, right, they go into effect every August. Our health insurance is increasing slightly higher than 5%. I believe, you know, when we adopted that plan, the recommendation of that scale was sound in order for us to recruit and retain. So just be mindful of those costs that are exceeding what we anticipated in the budget. And, you know, making sure that we can handle those.

This is what we have.

I've got a couple of sheets. Okay. So I did it three ways. I did it rolling all the way back. I did it rolling halfway back. Rolling back halfway is actually a 10% increase when you figure in the growth as well. And going all the way back, we'd still have an increase due to growth.

Right, but a lot of that growth, most of that growth is in the tan.

Well, this part is, but this is. But yeah, I... I don't expect anybody to roll all the way back.

Well, just to me, I mean, I think it is proper and fair to require all municipalities to try to present their tax increases or whatever in a uniform way that's somewhat easy to understand. I have no problem with that. The rollback rate, though, the thing is to say, okay, you're getting the same amount of property tax year after year after year. which means you're going to have to find other ways to make it up. And listen, we all want relief. I mean, it'd be great if we paid the same amount of tax every year. But to me, that's just – I think it's a silly concept because that's not real. I mean, it's a lovely thought that your property taxes never go up, but the cost of everything else goes up. It's like – I don't know. I just think it's – I don't think it's – necessarily misleading i just don't think it is the best metric to use to say okay now i mean it is actually a good metric to use to say your you know percentage increase because it turns out that's actually about what it increased or by i mean they've got 10.12 i calculated 10.13 but um i don't know i just think the rollback rate is misleading and it assumes you can survive on a flat you know, revenue every year. And then you're just going to make it up somewhere else. And again, I just don't think it's mindful of cities that rely heavily on property tax. It's like, well, we don't have a bunch of factories or hotels or malls or gas stations. We don't have them. It's like, you know, we got a bunch of houses and we might have some more stuff, but it just, to me, it's just a kind of a, this flat application of something that just doesn't really work. And I don't think it's – I don't know. I just think it's a – I think it's just an oversimplified metric that misleads people or – I don't know. But that said, I mean, I think a reduction to 9.3 or even 9.15 – I just, and again, I agree with Graham. I don't want to get into this, oh, it's nine, oh, it's 10, oh, it's eight, oh, it's seven, oh, it's 12. Oh, you know, but I think when the legislature is kind of playing this whack-a-mole with what we're going to do and how, I mean, it's, I don't know. It's, I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's just.

So, like, Dunwoody was, they advertised, like, what, 30%? Brookhaven, 40%. 40%? Are they raising their bill?

Yes. Another thing I think the mayor said on many occasions comparing city to city is a very difficult thing to do because each city can generate revenue from different sources. Dunwoody gets a ton of money from franchise fees because they have a ton of homes and a ton of apartments. They also get a lot more money from the cut of the insurance premium that cities can generate revenue because they have huge companies and a lot of commercial. So it's hard to compare us to them. But our closest competitor is Decatur. We have a very similar split in commercial to residential. And, you know, we're three mills lower than Decatur. And they also assess their value on 50% instead of 40. So to just put it in perspective there. Now, you know, Clarkston and Chamblee, for example, each collected in the 80 percentile of their bill taxes last year. And both of them had to dip into reserves.

Oh, yeah, yeah, that was bad.

So just when we're having an unknown economic condition, I just think it's important to consider the unknown when making a decision and, you know, not being too But that's what I'm going to recommend. That's the conservative approach.

And you, again, you're doing a job.

Yep.

And I just, you know, and not, if you're not listening, I just, I feel like a village reduction isn't based on what we've heard, based on what we all feel, based on somewhat the, I think, the monoscript of our budget itself. I just, I feel like it's in order. And I mean, I would be happy with 9.3. I think I'd be a little happier with maybe somewhere in the middle of 9.15. But, you know, but I'm kind of banking on, not kind of, I am banking on maintenance burning off. We're getting, we've got a commitment for $350 million worth of development. I think there will be more. I think we are doing a good job. I think people from the outside are seeing that. I think people, businesses want to be here. I think we're going to continue to grow. And we don't know what that growth is necessarily, but I think it's really more based on the 350s. And I know we have capital needs, and I think we're going to have to have some discussions about establishing identifying a capital revenue stream. Maybe that's the special PAC we've got, SSD, the special service district.

Just remember, though, the SSD is probably even more heavy-handed now because of SB 33, because those properties aren't subjected to the homestead cap. So if you do an additional tax on those properties, it may become too burdensome for new development.

But I think we're going to have to talk about other stuff. I just think we're going to have to, you know, I think we're going to have to talk about the TAD, too. But I just, you know, and I think we're going to maybe have to start actively going after other types of development that will be better revenue producing, whether it's a hotel or I'm not suggesting high rises. Don't anybody get this up. But I mean, I think we're going to have to. work with the DDA and maybe say, hey, we really got to go get some of this diversify even more because now it's even more important, but I have confidence in us. I have confidence in what we've done. I have confidence that people and businesses and development will continue to come here. I just think of reductions in the work for all those reasons and the other ones I've mentioned. And really, it's primarily homestead property owners is offering relief. I just think that a 10% increase is kind of, it's a lot to ask right now. That's really the primary dropper.

I agree.

And so, I shall shut up now.

But I don't think people don't expect their taxes to grow. I just don't think... I think they've had a history for the last five years or so where they've grown dramatically. And I think there's a weariness of that. And I think it would be a very positive thing to not let that happen again and to give this break.

I mean, well, I think that growth is good. I mean, not that taxes going up is necessarily good, but we've tried to... We've maintained, you know, we've incrementally lowered the millage rate. We're proud of that. I mean, the increase in property values is because of the increased attractiveness here. People are like, I want to move here, and this is a nice neighborhood, and I want my kids to be here. You know, it's a little bit of a battle, but I understand what you're saying. Maybe we should have.

This is probably the first year that we've gotten significant growth in the commercial area, and that's a very positive thing as far as value.

Oh, yeah, we do. Yeah.

Well, I support a 9.15.

I just, you know, we just still have to keep the future in mind. I know it's nice to tell you we don't have to think about political climate, but it's important to do that.

Well, and I also think we need to do a lot of work in managing our costs and our expenses. I think that is something that we probably need to look into and think about and discuss about ways that we can save money and be more efficient with our expenditures. I think that's part of it.

I mean, the city budget's only grown... Like less, I mean, less than rate of inflation. I feel like it's a lot. I would say it would be tough to think about, you know, trying to save more money than you're asking the city to reduce budgets even further below.

Well, people do it all the time. We had to have flat budgets at DeKalb for a number of years.

I agree, but if you look at the amount of stormwater projects that they've had to undertake in the last 10 years, it's a lot more than I would say would be on that page because a whole lot of things failing all at once or things that weren't intended to in a timely manner previously. To maintain those you know, those modest increases in budget while taking on, you know, a ton of projects.

I think we run pretty efficiently. And I think that, you know, it's a fine line to walk because, you know, the standard level in our community is high, you know, and we want to keep it that way. So when we start talking about where can we cut costs, we'll cut costs means cut services. cut back on projects that need doing, things like that.

I think that really the only way we can cut costs isn't necessarily from an operating standpoint. As I pointed out earlier, we, year after year after year, come in under budget from an operating standpoint. The only place we really have room to cut costs a pay-as-you-go system, and I can't recommend that at all. Also, I think it's important to understand that we benefit from a really high award rate for grants. We doggedly pursue and get awarded grants at a rate higher than most. I think from an efficiency standpoint, I mean, You know, we're amassing a lot of awards, regional awards, state awards, national awards. Staff is nationally recognized. We're getting invited on national media apparatuses because of the success of Avondale Estates. I mean, we have a AA plus credit rating for a city of 3,500 people, which is phenomenal. almost unheard of. In fact, there's only one other city in the country with a rate higher than us with a similar population. So that should, I think, hopefully that should provide our property owners, residents, businesses with the knowledge that actually we're doing things the right way. And I think we need to be mindful of how good we've been. I mean, we're... We're kind of looked at as the golden boy. So I think that's a good thing.

Would it be helpful if we tried to do a projection of tax base increase over the next five years?

No. Why? Because, well, I mean, if conditions stay current, that's helpful. balance of power in the state changes. So I think that's something to consider. I'm not suggesting that a millage rate reduction is not feasible. I'm not at all. I just, you know, we do have over 400 properties in this city that have decreased in value. So even if we left the millage rate alone, those 400 properties have a lower tax bill that they could buy.

what um all right i'm not making a motion because we're in work session we're not voting but how does everybody feel about 943 can i make my comments first i've been waiting on that absolutely not going to use a single number and and i've been thinking about this before this discussion um i'm thinking i'm going to be supportive of whichever proposal um makes me feel like I'm doing my job representing the community as a steward of this city. I'm taking this more seriously than I take my own finances and other things because it is more impactful than just me. I've heard different petitions from the public this week or today and yesterday. I listened to the report. When it's over, I'd like to be able to say I supported the thing that I think 100 years from now will have been the right decision. Do I think that your number, your number, someone else's number, sure, it will have an impact on the next year or the budget and on the coming year. But more important is I would like the public to feel like we made a decision that was mindful, just like you said, and taking into account the current situation. hearing certain opinions, but also just plain old conservative, cautious, the right thing to do. We don't look like that guy anymore, but I would like to feel like there's that sort of respect of the process that we followed, and it wasn't just based on other things. But there's one final quick point. i think there's a sentiment some people feel like you know what you guys are talking about all this but the real issue is other things like debt service on the on the loan related to the uh to the town group that was a discussion last year with the commissioner rod um I also feel like when there is capital expenditure, if you take out a loan to do something, it's meant to benefit and to enhance the value of the city, to keep it moving, keep it prosperous, keep it attractive, keep it whatever. If I hear someone criticize the new logo and the marketing materials, I feel like that's an incorrect assessment of spending money. could have done i think that's completely wrong that is using the best tools at our discretion to make things better to make the right decisions to make sure that the city is prosperous and valuable in the coming century so if lowering it has the potential of damaging something then i'm not in favor if keeping it the same whatever i'm just i want to make a decision that is most appropriate and

not damage and will protect the city thank you okay i can uh if it would be helpful to you guys uh repair a you know a matrix if you will of scenarios at various military and just get some

Theoretical dollars. Yeah. Yeah.

And we can even do it at multiple levels of attrition, meaning like, OK, what happens if we only collect 95 percent of the taxes bill this year instead of 98 and a half? What happens if inflation keeps going up to six and a half percent? What happens if, you know, appeals are less than we think? What happens if they're more than we think? And what would be the impact on us? Yes.

I had asked when we first talked about setting the knowledge rate through advertising, were there cost savings in our budget? You said yes. So I think that should be part of it, is letting us know where there are cost savings and how much that might be.

Yeah. Again, it's tougher to do this year just because we have an inflationary climate that's changing, but we'll do our best.

Yeah.

I mean, well, we've been without vacancies this year, more so than in the past, too. So we've been operating with a full staff, so we're not going to get the salary savings that we have been able to generate in years past. You know, gas prices were... probably, you know, 33% higher than we anticipated them being. So it'll be a theoretical type of thing, but, you know, we'll try and give you as much information as would be helpful for y'all to make the decision.

I think, well, I'm with Graham. I think we're doing a good job. I mean, there's always a chance, or an opportunity, I should say. So, we agree on we're going to look at well i think we know what status quo is at 9.5 yeah but can we look at 5.3 and 9.15 sure sure let's look let's look at those numbers sure but i think uh you know it is important to

I guess think about, you know, we were, we were working on developing downtown with the hopes that lower village and reduce some of that, that burden on the residents. And I think, you know, we will live.

Well, I think there needs to be perhaps numbers, perhaps an area, but just some sort of also now, if you bear guys, here's the impact of our capital sort of plan. And I don't, We're going to have to continue talking about that because that is, I think that's one of the most important things we can do for this city and its future is, you know, at some point, I realize some dust has got to settle politically and maybe we can predict it, maybe we can't or who knows. I mean, when you got someone that wants to get rid of property tax, I think that's a oh i think that's election talk i don't think he's gonna be able to pull that out uh frankly i don't either uh i think but it could be they were eight votes away from that this year eight yeah but uh about two cents worth it's just the first shot it's like all right let's get rid of it all okay what if we meet in the middle it's just this car salesman know and uh they're they're going for more it's just they're trying to set the mark down here hopefully you know to the middle somehow but i don't know anyway we got to figure out a capital plan i mean we got to figure out a capital stream that everybody feels good about or everybody understands and is comfortable with and thinks it's fair that's a better way to put it we got to do it i mean we have to do it um The citizens deserve it, huh?

We have to determine what capital needs are most important, what's critical now, what we can put off for a year or two years. That's kind of part of it.

I think everything in the plan is important. I'm not saying it's not important, but how important is it? I think the first one is the stream itself. I think you prioritize and shift based on what that thing costs and how much it costs, but I think it starts with we have to establish... We're going to collect X amount or X percent every year. We all agree with it, but this is what you have to do to fix stuff in the future. I think we really are going to have to define that very specifically, whether it's through a dedicated mill, which we could do that, right? I don't know. That's not going to get solved today. I'm mindful that we're trying to do that in a different way, kind of a more analog way right now, but we got to figure that out.

Okay. And I'm just going to kind of say out of line with Louie and saying that, you know, we do have to think long term, you know, and we can't necessarily do something now that will set us back. And I do think our capital plan is incredibly important. Every project on there is important and every project on there needs to be done. And, you know, It's a hard line to follow, so I'm looking forward to seeing those numbers and seeing what each... Well, y'all excited to hear about two new unbudgeted capital projects?

No, no. We're on a roll. Don't do that. Don't do that. The list is the next two items. It is the next two items. Oh, fantastic.

Oh, actually, no, it's not. But I'll make this one real quick. Okay. Okay. I'll do it. I was going to say that we got, though inflation is creeping up now, our contract with Arrow is based on a March inflation number. And the March to March inflation number was 2.3%. So that shows you how right now. So that's what our contractual obligated increases is 2.3% this year. Now, sorry, let me hit you with something real fun. And by fun, I mean not fun. The county is reigniting their discussions about their sanitation program and the money they generate revenue. And one of the ways they generate revenue is through tipping fees at the And like they did in 23, staff proposed to the Board of Commissioners this year to triple those fees, which would triple our typical fee costs, which would result in about $150,000 add to our sanitation budget. You divide that by the number of households and add the $10, you know, about a $10 increase. Now, we are the three municipalities in DeKalb County that use the landfill as their tipper, are in negotiations with members of the Board of Commissioners of DeKalb County to create mandatory composting programs, which act to offset the amount of waste you're putting in the landfill, and because of that, the Board of Commissioners agreeing to keep the tipping fees at the pre-23 level. Right now, that's where we are. That can be subject to change. So I just want to let y'all know that in coming years, we may have to increase our sanitation rate above our expected inflation multiplier. Right now, though, we're at 2.3%. We feel pretty comfortable in that being the only addition to this year's sanitation rate. So if you take $388, multiply it by 2.3%, that is an annual increase of $9. So we will be at $397 for the annual pension fee.

How are we doing now as far as the fees that are paid covering the expenses?

No, we're good.

So we couldn't absorb that increase?

No, we couldn't absorb the increase. Unless we subsidized it with a general fund, which... So, but I don't anticipate that being a this year problem. I think, but it could be a significant next year problem.

Clarifying question. Do we know for certain that Arrow Waste tips in DeKalb County?

Yes, it's our contract. We're the customer. So they're actually tipping. at landfill and be much more expensive already. But the $10 increase would be a $10 a month increase.

So $120 overall. Yeah, those fees tripled. So let's hope that it doesn't. So if we did the mandatory composting, would there be, I guess, a fee associated with that? Yes. That would be assessed to the To the resident? Correct.

If we were to institute, and we haven't committed to doing that, we've committed to exploring what that would look like. But yes, let's just say we instituted mandatory compost. How that would work is, so there is a private composter that we actually partnered with when we had our federal grant. called Compost Now. They already offer a reduced rate to Avondale Estates customers who voluntarily want to use their service. If we developed a mandatory program, that rate would even come down further. It would just kind of like recycling works. Everybody would pay it whether you recycle or not. In this case, everybody would pay it whether they compost or not.

I was composting before them.

It would be cheaper for you. Yeah. If we, like, for your home, if we instituted a mandatory. Yeah.

Okay.

So that's just something we're going to kind of work through over the next year. I just want to let y'all know it's coming. Stormwater, I think, you know, the thing about stormwater is stormwater never ends. We will always have stormwater projects to execute through the remainder of You know, given the nature of the economic climate and the desire to try and provide some relief, I do, you know, I wouldn't recommend changing the sanitation fee. The sanitation fee will go up by, you know, nine bucks. This year? Yeah. For a year? For a year. Yeah, yeah. That's an income. So less than a dollar a month.

Okay. Yeah. So that's, okay, so just slide number four, when we're done.

So we're going to have 397 on the sanitation from 388. So we started, remember, two years ago at 380. First increase took us to 388. Second increase takes us to 397. Stormwater is 180 currently, annual. per unit. So, and residences are a singular unit. So, I recommend keeping that the same, which would mean that would be, I think, the fourth straight year of that. Okay.

Yeah. All right. And so, that would be set the resolution for next meeting to vote on. Correct. All right. Great. All right. Item number five.

Okay. So, Harry, Harry wants to make a pitch. Yeah.

I'll be brief. A little background. Take back to 2022 before we instituted a fleet replacement plan. We had to purchase five new patrol vehicles. To help in the cost of that initial purchase, we were able to reallocate five in-car radios. Recently, those five radios have been experiencing more and more troubles. They're at repairs, so we need to replace them. I received two quotes to make sure we're getting the biggest bang for the buck. One from Motorola. That was for the Apex 6500, and that was for $36,060.75. The other one was from Loudon Communications for a Harris XL85M in-car radio. That was for $44,002. the apples, the radios, features, functions are apples to apples. They both include installation, programming, no hidden fees. So my recommendations go with loud and communication with all the hair traders.

Which one was through, is that through the state contract?

Yeah, they're all state contracts.

Okay, both of them.

So basically, we've got an existing line item in the capital program for leased vehicles and equipment. So when we amend the budget to incorporate the items we discussed at the strategic workshop, the centennial, potentially this, potentially the next item, and the Waffle House donation, we would need to add $24,000 about a $350,000 to the black transfer of capital that we didn't expect. And of course, the Waffle House Funding, which frees us up. So we will have the opportunity to amend the capital program to absorb this without any trouble.

So these were like... radios that you had in other cars, and then we bought the big lead. You brought them from there.

We were able to surplus the older cars in 22 and pull the radios out of there.

So how many police vehicles do we have?

I think we're at 18.

18 police vehicles. Wow.

We're going to be surplusing more than what we're replacing today.

How many will you be surplus?

Four vehicles. The plan, the replacement schedule allots for two new patrol vehicles.

So we have a vehicle for each member of the department. rotation.

So, I'm guessing they're all take-home vehicles for the officers?

Yes, we do have a take-home program, correct. If we didn't, we would not have police officers. We've talked about that.

Well, it's just, Atlanta's a very competitive market. It's a way of trying to keep officers All right. So everyone here with that?

Yeah.

Vote next time. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Last item. Number six. Center Street stormwater.

Stormwater. We have an ongoing list of stormwater issues that are never ending. And it's really challenging. You can leave made so little investment in storm water for so many years. This is a particular issue that we improved all of the storm water on and so it's part of that. So it's nice and fresh and new and should be working. And it is, but it is now directing water into a pipe that is on Center Street. which is an older pipe, and I, you know, can you, can you, I expected this one, there's no way, that's probably close, but the picture, you know, the picture, I just want you to know what I'm talking about, this is, it's hard to see from, even from here, I didn't anticipate that, but there is a big stormwater pipe that comes out, this is, I'm all going to go point at it,

Oh, I see.

Yeah. And it walls into the street.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Walls into the streets. It's creating flooding issues.

Right. I'll say it. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

It's creating flooding issues. All that flood water goes on to the neighboring property and they're not very happy about it. And we just added more water. Cool.

And it's undersized.

And it's undersized. So we're looking at taking that pipe underground under Center Street and then tying it into the Avila project. And then that water will go into the new pump, which is probably two weeks away. It was originally designed, but that's not what they did. I don't know why, but that's not what happened. And so that's what this project is. Take that pipe under, take it, I don't know. I did give you the drawings of that and a highlight of it so you could see it. Sabrina, you can pull it up. I'm sorry, guys, that it's impossible to see that construction drawing for that. But that's, we're looking at about, we're looking at about 350,000 to do that. work, which I thought that was good. Yeah, we thought it was much better. Yeah, I mean, you've got to dig it up, you've got to put it underground, and you've got a lot of other utilities you've got to work around. So, you know, anytime we have to dig something up, that's kind of what we're looking for. I'm married to one that doesn't help.

We could have been a civil contractor.

It is possible. That would help a lot. So we estimate the cost at $350,000. It is possible that that cost is reduced a little bit if the county gives us some relief on placement of the undergrounding with respect to its proximity to the water sewer lines, which we anticipate them to. However, you know, What would you like to say, Jonathan? Every stormwater project starts with a price tag of $500,000, and it could either skyrocket or come under, and you never know. That's kind of what we're looking at here. So the idea is to take it to the edge of where the new development would be, and the new development at their cost would run it all the way to the bottom.

So this.

OK, so yeah, yeah, no, no worries. So it's so.

So it's going to connect to the.

We would take it to the edge of the new development, right? And then they take it from there and it would be part of their stormwater. Correct. And it would go all the way to the stormwater retention amenity at the northwest corner and the Oaks site.

Can you clarify? Will the developer of the property install this or does this have to happen now?

So much like the infrastructure work that the DDA is contracting for, we will recommend

the spot in the photo and you said it was washington for the property owner is that the playground of the peas in the pond um i think it just kind of goes every you know just take it from there if you go look it's going everywhere so in that photo that fence on the left is that the piece of the playground bucket so um uh what's

So theoretically, there's no, kind of like the centennial budget item, there's nothing for you to vote on next week with regards to this. We're bringing this to your attention so that when we bring that amendment forward, it would be inclusive of this project. And of course, any contract or IGA or anything like that in order to execute the project would come before y'all.

So is this money having to come out of the general fund or could it come out of stormwater or a SPLOST?

Yes, all of those possibilities. Yeah, yeah. Our SPLOST allows for stormwater. In fact, one of the ways to get the county excited about giving us the, what do we call it, like the pipe placement relief is saying, hey, you remember that $2 million y'all gave us extra for stormwater? Here it is.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So are we good? All the agenda items. Okay. All right. So everybody, we need to have an executive session, which means. Oh, yeah. Sorry.

This is why I need people. People.

Okay. Public comment. Public comment. Mr.

Hover and then Richard. I will repeat that I hope you will consider keeping the upgrade as it is. I understand that people would like to have tax relief. However, I think that considering the capital needs of the city, that it is short-sighted to provide that relief at this point when there is such an exceptional amount of deferred capital projects that by giving such relief, it would just be down the road more. And in the meantime, things that need to be done like repaving streets uh those conditions will be continuing with getting worse so that presumably uh or i would anticipate that the costs for doing that work when we get to it eventually will be much greater than they would be in trying to keep on track we're getting stuff done now rather than later Thank you. I appreciate it.

Well, I'd like to commend you, Mr. Mayor, and the board for considering reducing the millage rate. I misspoke a little bit earlier. What I meant to say is I didn't want to see the tax burden increase. It wasn't the millage rate so much. But after having heard the numbers, I think there's a significant cushion between anticipated collections and what has been budgeted for revenue from ad valorem taxation. that can be cut into to fund a slight rollback reduction in the millage rate as you, Mr. Mayor, have suggested.

Clarification. The stormwater fee, you said it was per unit. If you have an accessory dwelling unit on your property and you build twice, A separate unit?

No, it's a lot square footage calculation. So I'm pretty sure almost all of our residential properties are a singular unit. So only commercial properties exceed the square feet, the lot square feet.

So you're saying that we're not, even though those units are producing, okay.

It's not our calculation? Yeah, the county calculates that.

Okay. I just don't think it's... No. If we have a lot that has three units on it, why are they not only paying for one? But if it's based on lot coverage, that may be need to be addressed.

Neil, um... I don't understand the laws regarding the notice or the tax increase, but if possible, if it's something that we can do in the future, like the breakdown that Patrick presented of what is commercial, what is residential, might be very helpful to make that highly accessible to people when the notice comes out so that they can see how much of that percentage might come from commercial, how much of that might be on

Can I give him this?

No, I know you have it, but I'm just saying when drawing attention to it.

That was the intent, but unfortunately I had to miss the last meeting and my apology.

Thank you. Anybody in line? No.

Any further comment? It doesn't have to do with the taxation issue, but about the waste issue. I hope the composting discussion is proceeding. We get back to that. I take mine to Charman Bay, 75 cents a pound, which is really cheap. It doesn't matter. I've got the time to do that. A lot of people don't have time to do that. Another thing which needs to go out and be removed from the garbage stream is wine bottles, glass. It's very heavy, and it adds significant cost, I'm sure, to the tip of the bees. I wonder if there's a way to address that. I assume you're I drink beer, so I can criticize the wine.

I take mine to Farmer's Market.

Farmer's Market. Farmer's Market. And I'll say Charlie makes wine bottles. Okay. Thank you. All right. Okay. Okay.

Now.

Now.

All right, so we've got to have an executive session, so I've got to ask everybody to leave. Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

That should be adjourned. We don't do that a lot.

Oh, okay, that's all right.

I need to know. Thank you.