City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome to Athens City Council. This evening we will be meeting in council committees. The meeting will be called to order by the city council president who will then pass discussion over to a respective committee. The chair of the committee will introduce the discussion topics and provide an overview of the issues at hand. If needed, members of the administration will offer brief statements to provide further context. We will then welcome input from the community. Any citizens who wish to speak will be asked to state their name and address both verbally and on the signin sheet located at the podium. Individuals will be given one opportunity to share their thoughts and the committee chair will have the authority to limit each speaker to three minutes. Once all citizens have had the opportunity to speak within the 15minute time period allotted for total public participation on each topic, the public comment portion will be closed. Council committee members will then continue their deliberations. There may be additional questions directed to the administration during this time. When the discussion on the topic concludes, the chair will indicate whether legislation will be introduced at the next regular session of council and move on to the next item on the agenda or adjourn the committee if their work is complete. The next committee chair will then call their committee to order, proceeding in the same manner as before. Once all committees have adjourned, city council will conclude for the evening. Hey, hey, hey.

Good evening and welcome to Athens City Council. Today is Monday, May 11th and we are in committees this evening. We'll begin with the planning and development committee. So I'll ask members who are not a part of that committee to join the audience. The planning and development committee is chaired by member Alan Swank. Joined by members Megan Almeida, Paul Isherwood, and Jessica Thomas. Okay, we have uh two items on tonight's agenda for planning and development. And this uh first one uh I can't hide my enthusiasm. I'm particularly excited about uh when you're a history major in college and taught history. I was in the yearbook print industry for 34 years. This is right up my alley. So, it's uh something I'm very very uh proud and happy to introduce tonight. At the risk of uh botching up what the project's going to be though, we have a guest or two or three that's going to give us a um brief overview of what is for us and then we'll delve into our normal process of to the mayor and members of the community and back to members of council. So, Mr. Anderson, front and center, please.

Hey, if you just tell us your name and your address, that'd be great for the record. And then you proceed from there. Sure. My name is Tim Anderson, uh 7190 Brookside Way in Athens, and I am uh the um uh chair of the Historic Preservation Commission. Very good. And so what do you

So So uh uh in December uh of last year uh the uh preservation commission was approached by um representatives of paper print book, an experimental experiential museum. um uh that has plans uh for uh Lasher Hall. Um uh and so uh they came to us to uh ask if we uh would be interested in um uh getting that building uh uh designated as a historic landmark, a city historic landmark. Uh so uh Bill Walker, one of the members of the commission, did a lot of uh uh of uh homework on that that structure and uh a lot of that is contained in the uh report that he uh uh forwarded to you all. Uh and uh so um it's pretty self-explanatory. Uh we feel that the commission met um with uh representatives uh of paper print book uh the proposed museum uh and um uh we discussed the uh the that building lasher hall and its history and uh like I said Bill Walker did a lot of the homework on this a lot of the history dug up a lot of that and um uh we feel that uh uh that uh u designating The Lasher Hall as a historic landmark, a city historic landmark um uh is is certainly called for uh under AB criteria ABD and G of uh Athens city code 4511 uh which uh contains the material uh related to the designation of uh of of landmarks historic landmarks in the city.

Very good. Uh point of uh clarification for clerk Walker. Um it's my understanding if council were to proceed with this, this would require uh a three- reading process or can it be handled as a resolution? Three reading process. Okay. Well, we have Mr. Anderson at the podium so we don't have get up and down. Any questions at this time for Mr. Anderson before we go to the mayor? Any members of the committee? And you will have a chance. We will come back after we hear from uh the mayor and also from members of uh of the community. All right, hearing none. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, hearing this time, I'll throw it over to uh Mayor Patterson. Okay.

Thank you, Council Member Swank. Um I'm well aware of of this endeavor. Uh I'm also well aware of that particular building and its historic significance along with Henning Hall right next to this particular building. Um which I believe So when fact check this that Henning Hall is recognized as a historic building. It was the architect on that building was a very notable black architect that helped design what is or what was the former post office. Um but that said, um recognizing that this could be the home of something I think that would would really benefit um Athens, Athens County, Southeast Ohio with the history of print making. And it's notable that that particular building housed one of our local newspapers back in the day originally. So how fitting is that um to have something like this take place? So, uh, I'm very much in favor of designating this as a historic building, looking forward in time. For any of you who have not gone down there and looked at the exterior of this building, it is quite quite um, beautiful. You know, the architecture, the stonework of that particular building. Um, I do often when I'm walking around pulling stickers off of lamp posts and removing graffiti from our uptown area to where I'll sit and kind of marvel at that building and and what a gem it is and it it needs to be preserved. So, I'll just leave it there.

Thank you very much. members of the community, any comments that you'd like to share with us about this project perhaps in support or anything else that uh please just come to the podium and pen your name and address and uh President Mccur will push the button over here for three minutes of conversation.

Uh my name is Don Adlita. It's 15651 Willow Creek Road. And uh what I have uh I have three members of the founding group that uh I conceived this idea. We inherited the legacy of Sarah Guilford and the paper circle and we're maintaining her legacy. Uh Susan Guilford, her daughter is part of this uh endeavor and a founder and we have three members of our uh board of directors and we have now created a feasibility committee to do the uh groundwork on the appropriateness of uh Lasher Hall. Lasher Hall was built 100 years ago last year. It's the home for the Athens messenger at that time and it is capable of holding heavy presses and that is one of our major concerns. But we plan to bring together a an a paper making area for individuals to come and make paper. then take the paper they make to the letter press, print the letter press. Um the letter press, all of the equipment is from the um Atita uh um binder and uh type shop that was ousted from Sig Freed during the renovation. So it's all in storage at this point, but the proof of purchase is proof of concept is really viable and it has served for workshops for many many

years for at least 30 years. and the actual binder which we hope to call the book portion. We are in collaboration with Alden Library and their facility that is located uh in the annex out on Columbus Road. Hopefully, we will be able to uh provide services for Alden Library. and I've uh presented a book to several of the uh individuals on the council and hopefully that will share with you u the concept of the budget and that what we are trying to make this is a selfsufficient museum because of the hardships of securing funds through other meth uh methods. This will give us uh an a a viable lucrative space. We are a 501c3. So we are not to make profit.

That's okay. Go ahead. You can continue.

Okay. We are not uh into the whole um position of making profit. However, in order to maintain such a robust museum that would bring people to Athens, all of the individuals that we have working with us, u myself included, are internationally known typographers and, uh, book binders and, um, the paper makers. So we could see conferences coming to Athens that would be I would say 30 40 people in a conference. Um one in particular conference that we hope to uh fulfill. In fact it was in place except co happened. But uh you might have heard of road scholar the ro a d uh scholar. They were interested in bringing a group of elderly individuals to Athens and work in our type shop and print a momentum or a card that they can take home and send to their grandchildren. And it would be uh something that I feel the the the benefit from having that exposure having groups of individuals coming in for conferences and for uh workshops and uh any kind of exposure research that they could do. So the ground floor would be the museum for paper, print and book. And then the second floor would be an exhibition space and workshop space. The

third floor, the top floor, we were hoping to be able to lease it out to artists and designers as well as possibly uh professional groups. and that would be income revenue to make sure that we can make our payments and things of that nature. But we do have in here uh some uh I think sizable cash that we can work with and we have um uh promises of uh estates so that it would be lucrative post the individual that uh is doing the estate uh promise or gift. So

sounds good. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else from the community today? Yes, sir.

Good evening. I'm John Gooden of Gooden Building. I'm a general contract in the area. Sorry, I'm done. Apologies. There we go. Sorry about that. I was approached about a year and a half ago about this project. Um, I have worked in and around Athens, Ohio University now for over 30 years. And what as a builder, what just destroys me is watching us take this old architecture

and ripping it down and putting something else back up. I know there's cost revenue, there's principles, there's, you know, ADA requirements. I I understand all that. I work with it every day. But when I walked in this building and I walked into dozens of high university buildings, I spent two years on the ridges and that's a whole other story. But the worst thing I have found, I've worked in two or three historical renovations, one in Wilston, one in Haydenville, and the worst thing I have found is a committee comes forward and they have a great idea, but they've got that idea by a 50 or 80 or $100,000 grant and they're dependent upon the grant, the reoccurring funding of the arts to maintain the project and it never gets done. I can take you to two projects now that had first phase done and now it's trash. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars. It's a waste of energy and time and it's a waste of a great resource we have. When Don and I first talked about this project, what really got me excited was I could see the revenue stream. If you ever get a chance, go to the third floor, look out the west windows, it's all glass. If you can't envision the artist sitting in there painting,

people walking by watching this and realizing I mean the council itself has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the armory and the office spaces are doing really well. That is what we're looking at is developing something that is a revenue stream of its own that is not going to be dependent upon the constant flux of the government purse back in to maintain it and by the same token maintaining one of the beautiful pieces of architecture we have. I've also talked to some other members of council or city city planning, not names, but there's other options for Hanning Hall sitting right next door and there's things that can be done there as conglomerates where the city needs space. You know, we might need space. This to me is an ideal application of how the community, the city resources, the university comes together to use what has been entrusted to us as stewards for the principle and the maintain of these structures financially efficient. But thank you for your time.

Okay. Thank you. When's the first tour? I want to see that west facing set of windows. Any other uh members of the committee this evening? Okay, we'll move up to members of the committee. Yes, Jessica, go ahead. Um, so we we know or determined that it'll be a three- reading process. Yes, ma'am. Public hearings. Yes. Okay. And then I assume that designating this is important because it will help with some funding also, maybe grants and history connection and all that. Um, and is there anything else that will come up as a city need or is it just the designation? Yeah, I didn't really direct that anywhere. Yeah, this is just the designation.

Okay, great. Great. Thank you. Other members of the committee? Yes, Paul.

Uh, I can say from experience um when I grew up in back in Dublin in Ireland where I originally came from. Um, and as a history graduate student, I had friends who uh worked at the National Print Museum in Dublin. Uh it's located in uh in an old military barracks and it's it is a treasure uh and it is one of the if you're ever in Dublin I highly recommend you take it in and take a look at it. It really is a really important preservation of a hugely important part of the culture and the industry of the city. And um you know I think we something like this to remind us of the importance of the print industry and newspapers and maybe this helps us remind just how critically important that is and to use a historic building like this I think is a fantastic a fantastic thing for the community. I can imagine um you know school trips to learn about the history of printing, the history of paper and uh I I I think it's a fantastic use of the building.

Thank you. Yes, Megan. Go ahead. I just have to say it it really brings me a lot of joy to learn about this. Um I really appreciate the experiential learning side to this project. I'm a firm believer in incorporating uh all the generations in an educational setting as well. I really really appreciate that. I think it dives deeper than the obvious of what this project is all about. So, I really appreciate it and it did. It brought me a lot of joy to learn about this. So, I'm excited for this. Thank you.

Okay. Um, pretty much everything's been said, but this thing really uh checks three boxes. Checks a lot of boxes, but three in particular. You already mentioned tourism, bringing people into this town. Uh, particularly in the months of May, June, July, and August, where you can basically park in the front door of any place you want. Uh, unlike the other eight months of the school year, it also addresses something this council passed not too long ago, and that was an empty building registry. Uh nothing worse than having an empty building in a town, but particularly on a main street. And this falls right in line with the opening of reopening of the armory, the work being done on Mount Zion Baptist Church. For those who may not know, on Friday at 9:30, there was a huge press conference, no ribbon cutting on what was the old historical society. Before that, the old library. Before that, a restaurant and a car dealership. Passion Works is moving to 65 North Court Street. and this falls right in line with that. U nothing worse than an empty building and uh I just want to see you get that big press up on the second floor. That's going to be fun. But the other thing I really appreciate this preserves a lost art in this day of digital printing oneoffs that you can get anything you want anytime you want in the privacy of your own home on a printer that cost you about $129 to actually seeing line of type and type being set and all the things that come with that. It's it's it's a great history lesson not only for those who are going to creating things but for those who aren't even familiar with that type of work. So I will ask the committee do is there any objection at all of scheduling a hearing for this? Uh, clerk Walker um, Saturday would go in the paper of general publication.

Put it in Thursday or Thursday. It's really not make difference as two days because the earliest hearing with either one of those days would be 30 days out June June 16th regular session of council. Any objections? If you could do that, that'd be fine. And then we can advance this on. All right. Thank you very much, folks. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Now, if you want to hear a little bit about a liquor license, that's our next topic. Should asked, what's going to be on that third floor? A little speak easy or something. Well, this will be right across the road.

Yeah, we heard the guy with the Irish beer down here, so we're set. All right. Our second item this evening is a request to um uh consider whether or not we need a hearing on a liquor permit update. A cy down on um West Union Street currently has a D12 and three permit and they're asking for a D3A permit. And what a D3A permit does extends the privileges of selling alcohol on premise but also in a sealed container for offremise consumption until 2:30 a.m. Uh that's what we have before us today. Um not sure how we do this. I'll just do this way. One of my concerns before we go to the mayor is that uh this business on the nights it's open closes at 9:00 except for one night and that's at 10:00. So, for the life of me, I can't figure out if you close at 9:00 and you close at 10:00 why you would need a liquor permit till 2:30 in the in the uh the um morning. Um both Megan and I have tried to uh contact somebody down there and have been able to do that. They're closed on Monday, so we tried again today. Uh but um I'll just throw that as a concern I have and then going to go over to the mayor. I don't know if he has a comment on this or not. And then uh what we have left of the general public.

Could you just pass it to me? Yes, sir. I'm sorry. Yes, sir. Thank you. Hot potato. Thank you, Council Member Swank. Um I just had lunch there on Friday and spoke with the owner. um who number one who was excited about getting the D3 permit um that was recently approved for them. Um and this will give them the opportunity to expand their hours if they chose to beyond their current hours. Um, I mean, it's it's simple economics, um, from their standpoint, you know, to be able to provide this, uh, and have their store hours longer than they currently are, their restaurant hours longer than they currently are.

Um, I'm also going to just say this out loud to everybody. You know, it's I remember when they first opened up as Thai Paradise and kind of worked through the process of getting a D1 and a D2 and then ultimately got a D3 um as they evolved into CAM. um and how refreshing it was here in the city of Athens to have a a ethnic restaurant um that is really catering to a larger number of people than I think we recognize in the city of Athens uh with Ohio University faculty with citizens in Athens. Um I I certainly enjoy having different options when it comes to different cultural foods. uh aside from going to the International Street Fest, which I love to um but um I think that this is something that will certainly help that particular restaurant. Um you know, I've observed over the past several years their operation and the way they do business. And again, I I don't see any negatives with being able to have this move forward with them being allowed to serve later in the evening and allowing them to adjust their schedules to accommodate longer service hours than they currently have.

Okay. Thank you. Members of the community, members of the committee, guess what we're asking for today is if there is any um uh uh interest in asking for a hearing. No. Okay. Hearing what I heard from the mayor, I don't uh hear any uh requests for a hearing, so I guess we don't schedule one. What's the next step, Clerk Walker? You just send it back. Sounds good. And that uh concludes uh planning and development committee. I guess city services is up next.

Thank you, Chair Swank. We will move on to that committee. City and safety services chaired by member Isherwood and joined by members Almeida, Swank, and Wood.

Uh we have four items on the agenda this evening. Um the first one is uh the community community community housing impact and preservation program or CHIP uh is a partnership uh the city uh with the Hawking Athens Perry Community Action. Um and I believe we have uh from Hapcap somebody to come and talk to the committee about this. So, I invite you to the podium if you state your name and your role um for the record and tell us about this program.

Uh yeah. Hi, my name is Jeremy Bogs. I'm the director of housing operations in our Nelsonville office of HAPCAP. Uh the reason I'm here today is to talk about the CHIP program, uh community housing impact and preservation program. Uh the city of Athens has been a partner with Athens County and the city of Nelsonville for the past 12 years and they've been a a grantee prior to that. Um in the last few years or in the last 12 years, the state has um rewarded uh communities that partner together. So, um, the city of Athens is eligible for $300,000, but if they partner, uh, with another eligible community, they're eligible for $350,000. And the same goes for the county, uh, they would go from 350 to 400. Um so uh the pro the program is funded with home funds and community development block grant funds from the um uh HUD and then a high housing trust fund from the state of Ohio. Eligible activities are the home repair program for owners and renters, the rehab program for owners and renters. There's a down payment assistance program and a uh tenant based rental assistance program as well. Um in the past um we have done uh owner rental rehab programs, owner and rental home repair programs and a um and down payment assistance in the past depending on how the housing market's going. Um, so, uh, the reason, uh, we're here today is to find out if the city wants to participate in the program again and partner with the, uh, with the Athens County. Unfortunately, this year, the city of Nelsonville is not eligible. Um, and then,

um, Athens County would be the grantee. So, uh, all the funds would transfer through the, uh, the, uh, Athens County Auditor's Office. So, there would be no real, um, um, you know, pocket cost or anything to the city of Athens to participate in the program. Uh, and then also with that, the city of Athens is required to uh, spend their revolving loan fund from program income. Um, with the rehab program, uh, owners and rentals are required to have an affordability period of up to five years. And in that 5-year period, if uh, tenants would um, sell their property, they owe back a certain portion back to the city. And then that that's where the revolving loan from comes in. So that money then gets back put back into the program when the city would apply again. So, okay. Uh and I think and this it would need three readings as well um for uh to be and the application is June 24th.

Uh any questions for members of the committee for Mr. Bogs? So it sounds like there's no cost at all to the city. No. Uhuh. Just taking the money and putting it to its best use. Yep. Sounds good. And this is a program we've participated in before as my Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're currently in one right now. Yeah. Yep. Um, mayor, you know, I'm just going to say this is a great program. Yeah. Um, I think Jeremy, one of the things, correct me if I'm wrong on this, that after that 5year period of time with renovations, um, that there is forgiveness at the end of that five years. Correct.

Which I've signed off on those. Um, because I and I I get to read through what the project was for the renovation. I get to see who the the the owner is of that home. I mean, it's all transparent. And I've seen some really wonderful and much needed rens for people who qualify for this program here in the city of Athens. Um, as was mentioned, we've been involved in this program for a long time. This is nothing new to the city of Athens. Um, there is no cost to the city of Athens to go through this program. the the only cost is not participating in the program because then there's not going to be that amount of revenue coming in to the region where we know that it's needed. So,

okay. Uh members of the community any okay any discussion from the committee? Uh any objection to moving this forward to first reading at next week's meeting? need to do that if we're gonna read it three times and beat the deadline. So, um seeing no objection, uh we will move this forward to committee reading to a full meeting of the council next week. Thank you.

Uh next item on the agenda um is uh a water meter upgrade. So, there are approximately 6,000 water meters and properties across the city and we currently those are uh read um in a manual fashion. You may have seen from time to time someone coming around on your property and someone reading the meter. And this current technology is often glitchy uh leading to wasted labor and hindrances to the management of the city's water system. So we have a proposal to upgrade the majority about 5,200 of those uh meters uh with equipment that can be read by a radio signal. Um this will allow for easier monitoring of water usage. an entire street or neighborhood could be read in a matter of minutes where obviously it would take hours uh uh in the current system. Um so the city is exploring various equipment options uh we and is uh intending to use the source well cooperative purchasing agreement to upgrade to purchase that equipment. Um this funding would come would be split evenly between the water and the sewer funds. Um, they are asking for an expenditure to not exceed $1.3 million. I want to make this very clear to anyone watching and listening to this. This is not money from the general revenue fund. This is not money from income tax funding. This is funding that comes uh from the water and sewer bills that you pay. Uh so this is part of the foresight of the city is those funds are put into funds in order to make sure that we can upgrade and preserve uh the water and sewer systems that the city has. So this is not excess money that the city has lying around that can be used for other purposes very clearly earmarked for this kind uh of project. And so with that I'll ask the mayor if you have anything you want to add on this.

I I do. Um council's well aware that uh not only are we under a hiring soft hiring freeze in the city of Athens, but we're also um have 13 individuals who are taking an early retirement from the city of Athens. Um most of them retiring at the end of this month. One of them is an individual who is one of the the water meter readers in the city of Athens. Um and by using this type of technology as we look forward in time but also with this renovation uh or this improvement to the meters as they exist on all the metered water accounts in the city that we would not replace that one water meter reader in the city of Athens. We're also looking forward in time with a system like this with these upgrades to the individual water meters that in the future using the same accounts that we would put telemetry equipment on our existing towers in the city. It's not under this this particular um u request. This would be um in the future another request to where we could further change the um the structure of the current meter reading in the city of Athens to where it is basically done in real time within less than three hours to sit there and read all the meters. There will still be some retaining meters that aren't in line of sight or uh uh you know line of sight with the telemetry in the future, but this would further lead to cost reductions. The other thing I want to share with council is that currently the individuals that are driving around um with hand telemetry and doing the me the

reading now they're driving around the city in a fossil fueled vehicle and reading those meters. um they're not allowed to let the vehicle idle when they have to get out and read them, but they're starting and stopping and starting and stopping and driving all through the city to me to to read these 5,500 meters in the city. And this would eliminate that as well to where there would be savings, environmental savings, and there would be physical savings of revenue that we have to budget for the gas to be able to get out and and do these reads. So there's uh this is would be a real benefit as was indicated. This is coming from um 740 and coming out of 750 both our water and our sewer funds. So therefore it isn't um coming from the general revenue. It's not coming from the general fund to be able to do this project. Um it is coming from money that currently exists in both 740 and 750. Uh, any members of the public? Members of the committee?

Megan member on May the 1st.

Could it would it help with catching say when a water line breaks or something internal, a toilet is leaking and costing the homeowner money? Would that sort of help close that loop a little more for property owners when there are situations like that and are costly? They could they could with the future telemetry to where we're actually reading everything in real time. I'm glad you brought this up because that telemetry will tell us that for some reason, you know, throughout the day, you know, let's let's let's have this conversation for a second. Your largest water consumption at your home is going to be in the mornings, you know, when everyone gets up and is getting ready. And it's going to be in the evenings when everyone's getting ready for bed or it's going to be during the weekends or whatever when there's people are doing laundry and your higher capacity is taking place. That's just normal.

It's up and down and up and down. This new telemetry in the future would allow for this water at this particular residence is running all the time and that's not normal. Um it will also give us the capability of looking at at some other things in real time that could be problematic. Um certainly it could be used with um our larger water lines in the city to where we could more rapidly respond to them because now we're seeing um 10 20 40 addresses. All of a sudden they're showing that that for whatever reason there's a lot of water consumption going on when in fact we've got a or or no water consumption taking place. That's aberrant as well. And therefore that's signaling us that where we've got a bigger issue somewhere within that service line the main going to those residents. So we could respond much more quickly quickly as opposed to having to recognize in the winter months a lot of steamy water coming up out of the ground you know um or during the summer months a lot of water coming up out of the ground where it shouldn't be coming up because we didn't have a large rain event in the city of Athens if that makes sense. It will allow us to be more responsive when we have individual issues, uh, individual residents or business issues, but it certainly will allow us to respond more quickly to major, um, water infrastructure events.

Yeah. Thank you, member Swank.

Yeah, just a couple quick ones. Uh, do we know of another city nearby or somewhere in Ohio that's currently doing this? I was talking to director Stone about that in particular, Council Member Swank, and I don't have municipalities at my fingertips. I can easily get that to you for next Monday night. But what what he informed me is that we're behind the power curve or was happening, you know, within the state of Ohio and nationally to where they are using these telemetry systems to monitor and you're being a good steward of the water you're making. you know, when you have INI, um, which means water leakage, you know, to where you're not getting any revenue for that water leakage because you've got a a significant water line break or something of that nature. This helps curb that, too. But we can get you cities that are doing this so that

Yeah. No, this sounds like a really good thing. And using modern technology, I was sharing details of this with a resident today and they asked me this question. If we get to the point where we can turn water off remotely, what is the security of the system that would prevent hacking? Hate for somebody to turn my water off.

Here, here's what I'm going to say to all of you, those who are viewing and council. Our SCADA system, which is the system that basically is running both the water side of the house and the sewer side of the house, are never connected to the internet. And that's a security issue and it's also a resilience issue for the city of Athens. That will continue with this particular system as well, Council Member Swank, to where we put every protection that is is needed. Uh but the number one safeguard is creating your own firewall to where you know at the water treatment plant and the wastewater treatment plant that those never get turned onto the worldwide web. Um because that opens you up for sure.

Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. But great question and I'm glad that that's being asked by a resident because that's this this is good for people to know that we have a lot of safeguards in place to where we don't find ourselves becoming victim with our most precious resource is your clean water supply. It is. We learned that during the do in 2012. So is there any opposition to moving this forward to committee full to full council next week?

No. Okay. Seeing none, uh we will move this forward to uh full council for first reading um next week. Um the third item on the agenda um this is about the new restroom facility at West 8 Street Park uh project number 349. This is and to amend um uh 74-25 to increase the authorized expenditure. My understanding is that this is due to a error that the um cost of the design work by the architect was not calculating the overall project authorization. So that in order to be able to pay for those, the authorization authorization needs to be amended to actually reflect the actual overall cost there. This is not a request for additional funds. This is merely um uh ensuring that the correct authorization exists. Um Mayor Patterson, you want to

I think you summed up I got that right. I was I was I was a little nervous about getting that one right. It was the auditor that that helped us identify this that there was funding that was put in place back in 2022 and 2023, believe it or not, for this particular project. And yet it was um this particular piece of legislation would capture those expenses today because they weren't captured in the past. So this is correcting that issue. And this is why you have an order. It totally is. Uh members of the community. Okay. committee members. Okay. Um so any objection to moving this forward to full council next week?

Seeing none. Okay. We will uh have this a first reading uh next Monday night. Uh okay. Item agenda four number four. This is about the renovation proposal to renovate the playground behind the community center. Um there's an appropriation from 273 unappropriated balance to 273. um TC500s of $80,000 an authorization to expand up to $105,000 for the playground. Just people aren't familiar, you may know the community center. This there is a uh uh there's the playground to the right hand side or I guess that would be to the western side of the building. This is the uh playground on the southern side of the building um that is used by the uh preschool children during the day and the afterare kids in the afternoon and the general community at other times as well. Um, uh, Mayor Patterson,

I I I would just add, so every every other Monday morning, like this morning, I host the all staff meeting and this question came up with director Katherine N. Jordan about this particular request. And what she informed me is um one the the equipment is aging but number two I think more importantly is there's some subduction taking place in that part of the building not the building of that part of the campus because you're correct it's the southern side um where this playground equipment resides now which is age appropriate for the prek activities that take place there at the community center um with the children's services that we provide for adults with small individuals. Um and so th those are two other points that are worth mentioning that there's there's surface problems in that location. uh because these would be replaced not in that location but again somewhere where it's easily accessible to the uh afterchool care as you indicated and the before school activities. I mean this is one of those programs the program itself is so needed in the city of Athens to have places for working parents or a working parent to be able to take their child. Um there is revenue that's generated from those services and this playground is an integral part to that. G give gives some outdoor recreational time on the playground equipment. So that's the request.

Okay. Um yeah the uh Katherine Jordan the director informed me the information that the the uh playground equipment is uh 26 years old. I believe that. Yeah. Um members of the community Okay. Uh, members of the committee, member Swank,

this is a tough one. Um, having been around early childhood education and educators for close to 40 years, it's very very important to have outside activities for children. And this program uh, this this equipment is for 2 to 5 year olds. uh not only the preschool program but the afterchool program although many of the afterchool kids are too big for the equipment. I in all of these communications do not understand why we need this. Uh I I I I don't understand. So I went down there today. Ryan, if you could please. I took some pictures. Yes, this equipment may be 26 years old, but there's not a darn thing wrong with it. Next one, please. The surface is perfect. There are no tears or rips in this surface. It's perfectly level with the sidewalk over there. So, those who need ex who experience accessibility issues can roll right onto it. The next one, please. This is the company. It's 2 to 5 years old. One more, please. Crawl through that. Perfect for little kids. And then the last one. I don't see the need. Now, if we are going to spend 95 or $105,000 on playground, the one that we really need to address is the one between the rec center and the pool. It is a disaster. It is old. It is heavily used, probably 10 times as much use on that pro playground as there are on this one. So, I guess what I would want to see is a

clear definition of why we need to renovate this pro playground. This stuff is in such good shape that if it's replaced, we could take this out and take it to a preschool somewhere here in Athens County that doesn't have the money to afford one. Just because it's 26 years old, as we heard from these folks here, doesn't mean you tear the building down. And I have a very, very difficult time uh voting for this to move forward until we have some definitive answers to what I consider to be very legitimate questions.

Any other members of the committee? I would invite members of the committee to go down there and look at this. My two grandchildren from Austin, Texas are coming downtown next week and I'm taking them down here with no reservation whatsoever to play on that equipment. It's okay.

Do you think we could get more information about the Is this is this about renovating the the equipment or is it about the nature? is the because we don't have a lot of information about what the money would be spent on. I'm assumed that we got some detail, but is this a would this be about mitigating the subsidance issue or is this much more to do with just overall redevelopment of the playground?

Um, I would reserve that for council having a conversation with the director, Katherine. Jordan. Yeah. Um, which please feel free to do so. You know, she can talk you through what she sees day in day out as they're managing that child care services down at the community center.

So seeing that would would that be something members of committee would be interested in doing? We having a conversation with director Katherine an Jordan about the nature of exactly what the expenditure would be in the pro get more details on the project before we move this forward. I don't have a sense that this is urgent like needs three readings done in the next, you know, by June so they can get it. Not to my knowledge. That was never conveyed this morning. An on-site visit would be wonderful, not only to look at this playground, but also the other one and to get a better view of what we're dealing with recreation for our young people here in uh in in in Athens.

Um or come to council and share with us the details. Um either one of those would be my preference, but like I say, I went down and visited twice today just to see. Well, I'm not against that and certainly not proposed the idea of getting more information for the committee. Do we want to advance it to reading next week and or have Katherine Jordan here for that or do we want to hold it off to another committee meeting in two weeks? Can I get a sense from members of the committee? I'd prefer to uh talk about it in two weeks when we get more information. Other committee members.

I don't know what we're uh I mean we're we have quasi new processes that we're pretending are their rules and we have quasi old processes that we're also pretending are the rules. So I don't know quite what we're doing. Well, okay. I'll do it this way. Can I get a motion to advance this to uh first reading next week? So, move. Can I get a second? Okay. So, there's I need some clarification. So, if we move it to first reading, we would begin that process. But will there be still could she come out and still speak to us and we can learn more? Okay. Yeah. reading

then I I second that. Okay. Uh can I have a vote to move this forward to first reading next week? All those in favor say I. I. I. And all those opposed. No. So that's three. So we'll move it forward. But I will ask uh director Katherine Jordan to come next week and talk on this at first reading. Okay. Point of point of clarity. The chair is not voting. Getty. Oh, I said yes. Sorry. I sorry. Yay. I was watching to see what else was happening, but I was a little confused.

I was focused on that, but yeah. Yeah, I I will move forward. Um, okay. The um that's the last item on the agenda of committee and safety services. Thank you, Chair Isherwood. We'll now move to the transportation committee and that's chaired by member Beth Claudefelter and joined by members Wood, Staser, and Swink.

I had ready. All right. So, the transportation uh committee today has one item uh and that is kind of cleaning up some bookkeeping uh from a project that was originally funded by Athens City Council or the funding for which was approved by Athens City Council in 2023, but our auditor and her office have noticed that there was a an error made that needs to be corrected that hadn't been not noted until now. So um se the key section here is section three. The service safety director is hereby authorized to expend up to and this is a typo on the paper but this is just a draft so it will be changed. Uh the correct amount is $222,300 as follows. $132,300 from CDBG fund 248 transaction code 500 and $90,000 from street fund 220 transaction code 500 for said project number 335 three project number 335 uh that project uh label refers to a project on West Washington Street to improve um part of the sidewalk on that street that was at the request of many residents on the west side and to make some other safety improvements. The work for this project was completed in 2024.

So, this is just um a correction to um to clarify the accounting information for basically for bookkeeping reasons. But it does involve appropriating an additional $2,300 um to take care of uh an unpaid bill from that project or the accounting for that that bill. Just moving some money around um to to make the uh calculations for that project whole or this project from years ago now. So, that is the information I received from the auditor's office. Um, does the mayor have anything to say?

You you mentioned it and I think this is important. This is this $2,300 that we're talking about would come from it's it's from the CDBG share, you know, because that particular street qualifies under the census track for CDBG funding. The other thing is as you caught yourself um I need to reiterate that is this is just this transfer is just to make sure our books are true to what they should be with this particular project. So it's not a pass due bill. You know that's a long time to be a pass bill.

Yeah. So it's not that it's a counting within um the auditor's office for this particular project. The project's long been completed. It was to enhance the lighting on Washington Street. It was to also correct some sidewalk um elements in there that uh has in my opinion has been um successfully done. It was also some of the funding was to remove some of the line of sight bushes or shrubs that gave it a look and feel that it wasn't a safe street to walk down at nighttime. and we have a a lot of individuals who live down there uh because there's a lot of rental units in that area. And so this this really kind of came forward from a number of students who had indicated that they did not necessarily feel safe walking up and down at during nighttime hours on West Washington. This corrected a lot of those issues um in that corridor. So it was a it's a great project. Um it just this is just a bookkeeping um accountancy thing on the side of the auditor's office that needs to be addressed.

Any comments from the community? Seeing none, any questions from members of the committee? Member Wood. Uh two one I'm not familiar with the CDGV acronym. Um, community involvement block grant. Thank you.

Uh, two, I'd be remiss uh talking about city uh street sidewalk questions. Um, I think it's been really awesome to watch the city take on adding a lot of curb cuts and accessibility throughout the neighborhoods, which has been really great. Um, you can see those down on on uh uh East State Street when you go around the curb. There's been a lot of very visible spots where curb cuts have been added and that kind of thing.

Um, but I'd also be remiss if I didn't bring up uh our friend Dave McN's uh constant request for things to be added up town to. Um, so my two-part question, one, what are what are the processes that we undertake when we're deciding which places to add curb cuts? And is there a way we can, you know, add apply for such a grant for uptown? Is there something we could do to to address those curb cuts?

Great question. Let me let me add well let me say to you not adding anything just saying to you that there are only certain census tracks that qualify for CDBG and that's what we're talking about here. Um there there's um AMI, you know, average median income related elements to CDBG. So community development block grant can only be used um within certain census tracks in the city of Athens. Court Street, believe it or not, is not one of those. Um and so it cannot be. But I do I'm glad you brought this up two things because I I I think a lot like council you've heard from um residents and citizens in the city of Athens um with the Madison and East State Street improvement um and you know why did you put these bumpouts you know in that roadway? That was the only way because of the slope of Madison coming down to East State Street to correctly get an ADA qualifying path across Madison Avenue from point A to point B um to where it was more level for a person with mobility issues to transit across that particular roadway that being Madison Avenue. um Court Street recognizing that, you know, in particular state and court and um Washington and court needing some attention as does court and union um attention. So to your point, those are elements that are within the uptown improvement project, which is the $6 million that we got from the at work, no not at work, and the Appalachin communities grant program, uh, where we're under significant time crunch pushing the contractor that is going to

be working is working to migrate the utilities underground. Um and therefore again part of that project is once that transition has has been done then the curb ramps coming down um are part of that project to get them corrected. And and I I too recognize they've got to be fixed. But one of the things you don't want to do is make corrections now only to find the street having to get chewed up because of some work that that is part of the transitioning of utilities underground. Um, but I thank you for bringing that up. You know, fully recognize that it's it's a it's an issue and we're working and have been working for quite some time to get that corrected. Um, so you're going to see some work um between now and October 30th because October 30th is when we have to have that Appalachin Communities Grant Program project largely expensed.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Any other questions or comments from committee members? All right. Seeing none, are there any objections to bringing this forward to next week um for first reading? Okay, thank you. That concludes the transportation committee. Thank you, member Cloudfelder. We'll now move on to finance and personnel and that is chaired by council member Jessica Thomas, joined by members Claudefelder, Staser, and Wood.

All right. Uh we have two items on finance and personnel tonight. The first of which is um appropriations, two of them. Uh the $120,000 to the CDBG fund for the Columbus Road lift stations for project 359. Uh as I sent out, these are being reappropriated. They were re appropriated in 2025 but didn't get encumbered and were not reappropriated in the 2026 budget. So that needs to be appropriated for 2026 so that it can get a uh PA po number for this year. Um it's already you know was planned last year just did not get kept up with uh information getting sent forward. Does anyone have any questions on that one?

Yes. What account is that money coming from? It is coming from 248 the CDBG fund. So, it is grant funding and not city uh money, right? Okay. Yeah. Any other questions on this one?

All right. Uh the second appropriation is 15,000 to the parking garage fund uh 730 and that is their short for electric because they had to move some money around and with the new parking garage system we have to have a cash till and cash available to stock the till. So to get that started, they moved monies that were set aside for electric to uh parking garage till and then this appropriation will replace the monies for the electric for the rest of the year. Uh do have any questions on that one? All right. The second item on

I need to skip, aren't I? You're okay because I'm tired of talking. No, I I want to go back to the CDBG. I should have mentioned this on the the previous CDBG related piece of legislation

that the city, you know, receives um aboutund no we do $150,000 um 75,000 a year. It's always a two-year process as we go through this because of the qualifying census tracks in the city of Athens. So, um, the money at hand, you know, this $120,000 under the lift station project, it it's there's there's money there for this. I'm also going to say this that council because this is something I've shared at the state house. Um, I've also shared this on Capitol Hill in Washington DC is and I would love the support of council in the future. the CDBG while it's great because it is designed for um our our lower AMI census tracks in the city of Athens as a qualifying community in certain areas. It is ownorous to fill out the CDBG reporting requirements almost to the point where it's it's almost more expensive to run the program than it is to use those monies in areas of the city that we need. We do we do it. Um but it's trying to get the federal government to streamline the accounting process for this and therefore lessen the burden on communities. And I'm I'm not just speaking from this the point of of view for the city of Athens. This is every city, town and village in the United States that applies for qualifies for CDBG. It is an extremely antiquated uh cumbersome process to go through um that eats through a lot of your own personnel's time to sit there and make sure you're getting your accounting correct on this particular program. It's great. It's money that we get, but uh

any help from council to get our congressional members to understand that this is not a a easy funding stream to have to manage. Sorry, do we have any questions from the public on the appropriations?

The second item on finance and personnel is just some additional language to our credit card policy regarding convenience fees uh from the auditor of state. Uh they've added this at the state level. So then we have to add it to ours and it is in section two and just lists you know what when convenience fees are considered allowable expenses and when they are not. I do have any comments from the mayor's office. Any questions from the public on this policy and any questions from the committee? All right. Uh that ends finance and personnel. I didn't I didn't ask any questions about moving forward. fix that tonight.

All right, we'll welcome all members back to the deis for the committee of the whole. We have one item on our agenda for the committee of the whole this evening and that is discussion of council rule 28 regarding committees. Tonight's uh discussion as council knows establish is about rule 28 which establishes committees as working bodies that review matters referred to council, conduct public meetings under sunshine law and report back to council as matters progress. Over time, questions have emerged about how the committee advancement process should work in practice, particularly in situations where we have divided committees. uh questions about whether leg legislation is sufficiently developed for broader council consideration and how to balance meaningful committee vetting with opportunities for all council members to weigh in on significant matters. To explore those questions in a more conversational setting, council held a work session last Wednesday with the participation of our law director, Lisa Elias. And that discussion generated several ideas or approaches ident that identified both procedural and philosophical questions that may still require clarification. Prior to tonight's meeting, I invited council members who wished to do so to submit draft amendment language for compilation and distribution. We received three written options so far, two from member Thomas and one from member Swank. And I appreciate them both for taking the time to prepare concrete language to help move the discussion forward. My intention tonight is not to necessarily force immediate resolution, but rather to help us identify areas of agreement, clarify remaining concerns, and determine whether council wishes to move forward with a preferred framework, request revisions, combine elements of proposals, or continue discussion at a future working session if needed. As members consider these proposals, I

would encourage everyone to keep in mind several core questions that emerged during our work session. What should committee advancement signifi signify? How long should matters reasonably be held in committee? How should divided committees be handled? And what role should committee of the whole play when disagreement remains? I expect we can likely keep this discussion to approximately 15 minutes, though I may extend that if council believes additional discussion would be appropriate this evening. And with that, I'll first invite member Thomas to walk us through her submitted proposals, followed by member Swank presenting his proposal, and then I'll open the floor to council for discussion. Member Thomas.

Thank you. Um really after our uh working session, my brain was still buzzing, so I just went back and was writing through things and thinking through what we talked about. Um, my option one was upon completion of each item, the chair shall ask if there are any objections to moving to full counsel. If no, it moves on. If yes, it stays in committee until the next committee meeting. Uh, it does not need a majority vote. A reason for objecting must be stated to remain in committee though. Um, the chair will ask what's needed for that item and then we'll work to get that information for the next committee meeting. at the next committee meeting upon completion of discussion uh shall move forward to full counsel unless there is a majority objection vote at which point the item may remain in committee for one additional committee agenda. Uh and then three, an item shall not remain in committee for more than three consecutive meetings and shall be compelled forward to full counsel after the third committee meeting.

Do you want to discuss or just read all of them? Um, let's go ahead and identify that as option A and then have you read option B into the record.

Okay. Uh, option B is upon completion of each item, the chair shall ask if there are any objections to moving the item to full counsel. If no, it moves on. If yes, it stays in committee until the next committee meeting. The chair will ask what is needed for the item for the next committee meeting. At the next committee meeting, the upon completion of discussion, the chair shall ask if there are any objections to moving to full counsel. If no, it moves to full counsel. If yes, a vote is taken. Only a majority vote objecting will keep the item in committee stage. The item will move into committee the whole for next consideration. Once it moves into onto full counsel, though it can be referred back to committee if voted as such by full counsel per rule 21. Thank you, Member Thomas. Member Swink, would you please read the option C that you provided for council?

Sure. Okay. This is pretty simple and straightforward and very close to what we've been doing this evening. At the conclusion of the discussion of an item that comes before a committee for the first time, the committee chair shall ask, is there any objection to this item moving forward for first reading? If there is no objection, the item will be placed on the agenda for first reading at the next regular session of council. If there is an objection, a vote will be taken to advance the item and a majority vote of the committee shall be required to advance the item to the next regular session of council. Lacking a majority, the item will be placed on the agenda for the next committee session for further discussion and consideration. At the second committee meeting where the item is under consideration, a similar procedure shall be followed. Should the item under discussion lack a majority vote to move it forward, the item will then be considered by the committee of the whole at the next committee session. At the conclusion of the committee of the whole discussion, the same pro procedure will be utilized for consideration for advancement to first reading with majority vote of members present required for advancement.

Thank you member Swank and thank you again to both members Thomas and Swank for providing those written options. I'll now open discussion by council members about these three options. Questions and comments are welcome. Member Wood.

Uh yeah, I mean so kudos to both members for the work put into these. I think there's a lot good in both of them. Um I I appreciate the the thought and work um in both and I think that is valuable. Um the deliberation thus far has been really good and I think has been very um beneficial to to flush this out. Um, I feel like I think that Allen's option, option C, especially the first part is very concise and clear. Um, I appreciate Jessica's options having sort of the making a space for what is needed, although in some case maybe the view is that what's needed is that it die. Um, I I think a couple of things in general. One, I Allan, again, I really like your your version uh for the conciseness. I strongly object to just automatically getting punted to uh committee as a whole. I think that that just eliminates the point of having a committee. If you're automatically going to punt it um when people are against it, then that just is committee shopping. um I've made my views on committee shopping pretty well known uh thus far. So I think that's important. I also think that uh as I noted very cattily ear earlier um I think we're being a bit slap dash and just pretending we've adopted these rules and doing this uh is an objection bit now. We have not adopted those rules. That's not our rules. U we've seen how it plays out. Um, and I think until we have rule, we should use the rules we have in the books, having two sets of rules. Uh, we see how that's

working out in Nelsonville. So, I think we should keep with our with our process and not pretend these have been implemented until they've actually been implemented. So, that's my three three thoughts. I'll take a moment to clarify a comment that member Wood made in that uh there was prior to recent times no voting or uh pause to ask if there were any objections before moving items from committees to first reading uh unless there was a specific request to delay things for for a particular reason. So thank you member Wood. Do we have other questions or comments at this time about any of the proposals? Member Cler,

um I also thank the two of you for the thought that you put into this and and for your well-written and thoughtful comments. Uh I think that's val. I guess um I would just like to reiterate something I said in my written comments um that President McCra McCary requested since I was unable to attend the working session in in person and that is that to me the purpose of city council committees is not to be kind of gatekeepers. It's not to swat down proposals necessarily. Um to me the purpose of having committee meetings is to more fully discuss items that come up. Um to me committee meeting is the time where we can ask questions and share ideas, discuss things, have some back and forth in order to have a everybody be better informed when a particular ordinance comes up before council for first reading. Um, so I would be in favor of when there is any kind of vote that the the balance be in favor of it going forward not being killed. Um, unless a I I wouldn't want to see a proposal die in committee unless a majority of the committee members vote that it should not go forward. But anything below that, I think it should go forward because I I think that as I said that committee meetings are just to make us all better informed when something comes before the full council.

Thank you, Member Claudefelder. And I will just add that there's also a practical consideration to what member Claudefelder's saying that committees are smaller other than the committee the whole uh than all seven members having the opportunity to comment on a particular agenda item. and al acknowledge any other members of the committee of the whole who'd like to comment or question on these three options that have been presented recognizing that additional options are also welcome. Members Swink.

Uh yeah, when I uh wrote this up the next morning, uh the two things I considered were what I heard from my fellow council members and there was a concern that items before council not languish forever in committee. And secondly, when items weren't advancing with a majority vote, that eventually all members of council be able to weigh in on that or that if something got hung up in committee indefinitely, the three non-members of the committee would have no say. I I thought those were the two gravest cons greatest concerns from our discussion the other evening. And that's what exactly what I wrote that uh like we've done tonight and the committees uh we finished an item. Are there any objections of moving it forward? It moves forward. In the one case that there was an objection to move it forward. We took a vote and the majority prevailed 3 to one. In this country, we have a long tradition when we vote on things, whether it be in government, student council, who's going to be the captain of the baseball team, that when a vote is taken, the vote is an affirmative vote, all those in favor. And in option three, that's what we're doing. If we have a majority of people who say it should move forward at the first reading or the first committee, it moves forward. At the second committee, if we have a majority of people that say it moves forward, it moves forward. But lacking that, there's the safety net, and that is the third committee meeting. It would go to a committee of the whole where again every council member would have the

opportunity to weigh in and as we do in every other institution in this country since 1776 or maybe before that. It takes a majority vote of the members present to advance something or pass something. Right now we have an income tax that's holding strong by a razor thin margin of eight votes. And when the provisional ballots are rec reconciled this Wednesday, if there are at least x number of votes more for the positive, the majority will prevail in the city and the income tax will pass. That's how government has operated in this country for come July 4th, 250 years. And that's why I think in number three, it allows things to do two things. move forward, not get hung up, and if it does get to the point needing to go to committee the whole, every member of council will have an opportunity to have his or her voice heard.

Thank you, Member Swink. Member Thomas.

Um I I appreciate member Swank's comments and I obviously I've submitted two of these, but I could work with any of these because I think they all keep things moving. Um, and I do like member Swank's option of advancing and then not, you know, getting all the voices in at some point. Um, and I really appreciate member Claude Felder's comments that on gatekeeping in the committees. You know, that was one of my big stances when we talked about it before and in the working committee was kitty committees really shouldn't be used to kill legislation. Um, and I do think member Swank's process makes a lot of sense and is very simple and it just sets a clear path which is really my major desire for these.

Thank you, Member Thomas. Member Isherwood, this is going to make me look perhaps foolish. What's the difference between B and C? I don't other than the referring back to uh full cancel by rule 21 which would still be on the agenda. Is there I don't both would at a sec after a second would end up going to a committee of the whole is is there a difference?

The the difference I see uh and and Jessica I appreciate your comments. I really do. Um and and I think you took this seriously as I did. The only difference I see well not the one difference I see in B and C uh is in uh A1 upon completion of discussion of each item. Chair shall ask if there are any objections to moving the item to full counsel. If no, it moves on. If yes, it stays in the committee until the next meeting.

Um, the way I read that, one objection would keep it in committee. And I know the mayor's familiar with this, but uh, when you get to Capitol Hill, they have a thing called unanimous consent. And, uh, the chair calls for unanimous consent. Hearing no objection, it moves on. But if one person objects, then it goes to a vote. So that falls the difference between the one person could hold it up as opposed to having a vote. Thank you for that question and that response. Do we have other questions or comments from council members at this time? Member Wood.

Yeah, I'll take the uh controversial stance here. I think it's good the committees can gatekeep. I think it's good the committees can kill things. Um that is I mean using the Capitol Hill example the reason you want to be on a committee is because of that power that it has. If we're going to take away that power then why am I showing up this week? I mean just move on. Uh if it's just going to go on to to committee the whole then why am I here doing the work? Uh committee chairs should have power. They should have weighing in. uh and committees should be able to kill something. Um that's again that is the sort of parliamentary process that is the uh congressional process as well etc. Um I think it should be and I think that that should be part of the reason why we we do the work and why we show up. Uh you know when Mike asked about uh if what committee I wanted to chair I was like none of them. I don't really want to chair a committee. Um because why why do the extra work, right? I think it should have some some sway to it for doing that work. Um so I understand that that that's possibly a a uh minority opinion in this case, but I do think that that is one uh process that we should follow.

Thank you. Before I move on to comments from members Swank and Thomas, I will clarify that what member Wood is suggesting uh would be historically the first time that council rules have reflected any formal voting process that would uh stop something from moving to the first reading. Um, members link,

it wasn't too long ago that uh I would have almost said ver for vatum what you said and in the conversations we've had uh the comments that Jessica had about three of the seven members of council not being able to have a say at any time in the committee process uh resonated with me and the more I thought about it the more it made sense. I think we need to draw a distinction between state and federal legislation and processes and city council. At the state level and the federal level, committee chairs are extremely powerful, but they represent a political party that has goals and objectives, some good, some not so good, where even though everybody on this dis city council members is of the same registration, registered Democrats. So, it's not a power thing as to this party or that party, but I think it's consideration for the common good of the city. And I'm not advocating for the third option, but the third option does include the option of something being killed in committee. And the way it has that option is that when it gets to the committee of the whole if four or members of this committee were say no and that kills it. Is the longest serving voting member of this council. I can probably count on one hand the number of pieces of legislation we have killed. Most of the stuff that comes before us are things that we need

to act on to keep the city running. And occasionally, we've had one or two this year, we'll get something of a controversial nature that might need one or two or maybe even three committee meetings. But to your point about killing it in committee, the committee of the whole if we were to adopt rule C or proposal C does make that a possibility. And it makes sense to me if we have four or five or six members against moving it forward that we kill it then rather than spending three more readings with probably the same outcome.

So that's why I build it that way that there is a possibility that it could still die in committee but it would be after the entire council considers it. Thank you for that clarification. Member Swank. Member Thomas, do you still have comments? Yeah, just mean a lot of what Allan said is what I was thinking. Um I I typically agree with member Wood on a lot of things, but I heavily disagree with him on this one. I mean, we spent an hour and a half on just this

hour and 40 minutes. hour and 40 minutes last week and we talked about these things about keeping it killing things in committee and the purpose and you know it's my opinion that looking at state and national is why it's so dysfunctional is its power and it's not about involvement of voices and it's not about um representing people it's just about power moves um and I don't really want to see that at our local level I do like you know option C does allow three instances for the public to weigh in and to be aware and you if it needed all three, obviously. Um, and it's pretty simple. I just like things that keep it moving forward and don't block people's voices out because, you know, my point last week when we talked was we're a council of seven, not a council of four. Um, and I think it's important to get everyone's input at some point if they choose.

All right. I will uh try and move us toward conclusion and I would welcome any motions to adopt any of the proposals A, B or C. I can also hear any recommendations to continue this conversation. Uh if we feel like there's not a motion that want anyone wants to make tonight, I'll make a mo motion to approve option C. We have a motion from member Sherwood and a second from member Thomas. Uh do we have any discussion before we move to a vote from councel? Member Wood.

The only thing I'll add is if we're if we're going to I think uh something that people have mentioned and I think it's valuable is that right now the interpretation the rules were not allowed to have input in the committee things. I would have loved to have come and talked about the the paper item earlier, but we're not supposed to because of something uh that I don't quite understand. I think if we go for option C, we should just make everything committee the whole at that point. Uh like we're all already on three committees. Uh so like why bother? Uh I do think we should revamp whatever it is that keeps us from participating in in committee things. again would have loved to have said something about the paper thing. Uh but so it goes. Um I think we should review that but I think if we go to that then we should just go to committee the whole for everything. So, we have a motion and a second. And um with number Wood's comments, I'm hearing not uh well, I guess what I'm hearing is that there's a desire for more discussion about how council members who are not on a committee can participate in those discussions. All right. Any other discussion on the motion and second that we have for voting on option C? Seeing no more discussion from members of the committee of the whole. Uh all in favor of adopting option C as proposed by member swank indicates so by so oh okay so uh we will not take comment from the public for council uh rule discussion but because it is the administration that is typically giving council uh proposals and ordinance that they'd like to see processed efficiently. I'll allow the mayor to comment.

My my only like council is going to do what council is going to do. That's not where I'm coming from on this. But I would I would really love to hear from all council members because structurally you're doing something very different than was my experience as a at large council member from 2012 to 2015 and as mayor all the way up until the current council. Um but you know this is this is President McCary. This is your council. Um, you're the council president, so you maintain decorum and and structure with the way things are, but I'd love to hear from the council members that haven't spoken yet tonight. Uh, at the

if they choose not to, that's fine, too. I'm just I think the viewing audience would like to hear from where what the position is of all of city council because this is a different pathway than has been the city council of your. So, uh, we have a motion and a second and we haven't moved to the vote yet formally. So, if there are any other comments that council members would like to make, I'll hear those now. Just be quick. I mean, I had a lot of stuff to say last Wednesday, right? So, I don't I don't really have a lot to add to what I said last Wednesday. I mean, I was It's all similar. You know, what I had to say was I don't know. That was a long meeting last Wednesday and I don't have a lot to add to it. For those of us that weren't party to those comments, can you like

There was I can't remember what the first thing I said. It was something like that, right? It was like it it got it in the committee. It was asked, you know, the chair would ask if there was a an objection. If there was an objection, it would move forward. If there was an objection, it would just automatically go to the next committee meeting and then there would be a vote at the next committee meeting. Right? That's what I said. And it was similar, I think, to what the two of you proposed. Right? So, I'm not at this point I'm not opposed to any of them.

Um, yeah, after last Wednesday, I couldn't even remember by that time like what all the different nuances that were discussed were, right? I mean, it was a lot of like six one way, half a dozen the other, as my dad would say, you know. Um, but yeah, it was something like that. Fine. Okay.

Appreciate that. Do we have any other council members who'd like to offer comment? Member Sherwood. Well, I mean, I think what came out of this was that there had there had been a decision taken towards the end of last year's council that there was it it would make sense to try and formalize how things were moved out of committee so that we could standardize that process. Um, I can tell you as someone who attended council a lot before I actually joined the council, I felt as an observing member of the public that that made sense because I kind of wanted to know where members of the committee stood on a particular issue. forcing you to make us take a stance. We got elected to take positions on things. Um I think we we had a really robust conversation. Member Stacer is absolutely right. It was quite it was and but I think he he mentioned and spoke to the issue that was raised. A number of the proposals came up and this sort of goes to member Woods comment. Why not just do all committee of the whole and scrap the whole committees? And I think the general consensus from the group was the committees have value because they allow for smaller group discussion. They allow for division of labor. they allow for more focus uh on specific issues. But then we came to the issue that I think uh member Thomas spoke very passionately about about the idea that count the committees are there to advance and to improve items before the council not to kill them. Um and that we should work on those items until they're accepted. But we still get an opportunity to vote on the monthful council. And I think she made a very strong position. She said, "I guarantee you at some point in the future if you're not on that committee, much like with member Wood this evening, would have liked to have the opportunity to speak on Lasher Hall, but under our new understanding of rule that I believe came from the law director that it's inappropriate for us. We can't really take off the hat as a member of council to speak on an issue." And I think a lot of us came to the the conversation from that point of whether that is our

practice moving forward. We would like to have the opportunity at some point to put on the record for the members of the community where we stand on particular issues and that means that at some point it needs to go to the seven of us. uh and whether that's a committee of the whole or whether that's full council that was a there was a conversation committee of the whole I think was sort of a compromise because it was a suggestion that there were still issues about that piece of legislation or that ordinance that required work and that wouldn't it be better rather than keeping it with just the group of people who had been looking at that but to expand it to the full group of us to have the opportunity to weigh in in an official capacity. Um I think the other option about upside of that was um uh you know because I agree with me Wood there's been times when I would have felt would have been great to be able to weigh in on an issue but knowing there is that opportunity uh as with if an issue there were still concerns about it that a committee of the whole discussion would happen. I I think there was a once we got to that point in that meeting there was a real consensus of actually that is a sensible compromise that that is a workable uh opportunity and I hadn't thought about it you know I'm I don't completely share member Thomas's view about like committee shouldn't be able to kill an item that's not workable but I do understand that her concern that agreed that well if only a few members of of council kill an item before everyone has had an opportunity to weigh in on it that that's problematic. I mean, you know, and I agree, comparing ourselves in some ways to to Congress and the state legislature is problematic. One of the reasons they have committees in Congress is because they have over 400 members and it's in workable to do a committee of the whole. We have seven members. We can do committee of the whole. And committee of the whole, I think, gives us the opportunity to weigh in on those opportunities. And, you know, I'm hopeful as we move forward. You know, I joked at the end of the meeting, it's like, you know, what's going to happen? We'll never use this for the rest of the

two-year term. We'll never use it. it will never come up and then we will spend all this time working on this. Um, but I do hope it does it sometimes because it does give people the opportunity uh to weigh in and I so that's why I proposed uh option C. Again, I I commend member Swank and member Thomas who were at loggerheads of points in that meeting, but but that it's fantastic, I think, tonight to hear them proposing these options and evolving to this position that I think is and if you weren't at that meeting, I think it was we did miss you and I was glad that both member Clfelter and member Wood had the opportunity to speak first tonight because it was interested to hear your positions. But I do think option C and again concurring with member Thomas I can work with any of these but I think these are workable solutions to having votes and I do agree with member Wood's concern earlier we are we don't have set rules and these were our you know in my committee tonight I operated that in a way tech in some ways in the rules that aren't really in operation but I kind of did option C um and I would like as a chair clarity about that issue moving forward so that we do know exactly what we're supposed to do. Particularly as a new member of council and a new committee chair, I try and make it when I'm and those of you will have seen that over the weekend, I on my committee, I send out the information to everybody on on the council that I get from the administration. I I CC the non-members of the committee just so you have that in part because I want you to have that information. It's not secret. I think you should have that opportunity. I think that might add to the frustration because you're like, I'd really like to speak about this issue, but I can't. Um, but I do think that if in the event that we do have a a committee of the whole, all members of committee then will have had access to that information from the beginning to able to form and they get a better understanding of why members of council have had that view. I try also

share that information with President McCary and Clerk Walker so they have it on record as well. Um but that's why I I think a summary of where we were in our meeting next Wednesday and how I feel I think this is a very clear simplistic way but achieves the objectives that we were set out and also covers the concerns that members raised in that meeting in an effective way but allows for all of the things that anyone's asked for. I think members right you know at committee of the whole an item could be killed but it would be killed by a majority of the whole council rather than a minority of the council. I think that's that speaks to where we would be doing effectively representing the community on issues that

Thank you. Thank you, Member Isherwood. I'll take time for two more comments. Member Claude Felder or up to two. Uh member Clutter.

Okay. Um I'm pretty comfortable with option C if if we're going to do that. I like the idea that everybody on council would get a chance to comment before something was killed. um but that if the majority of members of council really didn't like something then it's legit to not have it go forward. I would just like to point out though um while I think this is thoughtful and and in some ways I really like the idea that committees would be dealing with this with a controversial issue multiple times and have more of a chance to research it and maybe go talk to people in the community, go visit sites, you know, whatever is relevant. But at the same time, we'd really be drawing out the process for the people in the community who wanted something to happen. Um, this could be if it were three committee meetings, that would be six weeks because we meet every other week. So, if it was going to the committee at first and then going to the same committee again and then going to committee as a whole, that's six weeks plus four weeks, excuse me, plus four more weeks for full counsel. That's a two-month process. um that may not always be feasible for the timelines involved for people who are proposing you know changes.

Thank you member Club Deler and we would definitely need that information available about any time sensitivity to the uh matters. Uh do we have any further comment? We have a motion and a second to adopt option C for rule 28. Uh all in favor of doing so indicate so by saying I. I. Any opposed say nay. Nay.

Okay. Uh with that, we will uh have the clerk update council rule 28 so that we can that should just be a single vote matter for council rules. So, we'll see that on the agenda for Monday. And council members can also expect um an invitation to provide their availability for a another work session to discuss council rules that have not yet been discussed. and the minutes from last Wednesday's work session will be made publicly available after council members have the opportunity to provide any suggested amendments to the clerk and then we'll have an option to formally adopt those minutes. With that, I'll conclude committee of the whole and we're done with this council meeting at 8:43. Thank you.