Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Hello and welcome to the January 7th, 2026 meeting of the Asheville Planning and Zoning Commission. I'm your chair, Jeffrey Barton. We accept public comment for our meeting in advance and uh at the meeting itself for items on the agenda. Uh written comments can be submitted to pz commissionersvillec.gov until 5:00 pm the day before the meetings. And uh if you're here in person to speak on an item that's on the agenda, you're limited to a maximum of three minutes of speaking as an individual or 10 minutes if representing a group. Um to begin, we'll have roll call. Chair Barton, present.

Vice Chair Cycle, present. Commissioner Br, present. Commissioner Bell, present. Commissioner Faircloth present. Commissioner Zufka present. And Commissioner Analo present. We have a quorum.

Thank you, Mr. Palmquist. And welcome to our newest commissioner, Commissioner Analo. Um before we go through the administrative section of the agenda, we do have an item on the agenda that is requesting a continuence. That's item number seven, the request to amend the conditional zoning for the Enka Heritage Parkway site. Um, do we have a representative from the applicant to provide a request? Yes. Uh, did staff want to speak first or anything? All right. No, you go ahead.

Y'all know me. I'm Jesse Swords, uh, land use attorney with Allen Stalin Kilborn. We're representing Costco in this matter. And um yesterday late afternoon evening um the team sent in a continuence request. Uh Will, I don't know if you have that to pass out to the I probably can't make it available quickly now, but we did receive that.

Um I'll make sure y'all get a copy of the actual letter. It kind of goes into, you know, some explanation. Um it's essentially it's um you know the Costco team wants to do some additional study before they move forward with the design as is. Um they're looking at kind of the cumulative effects of some site design challenges and some city requests and some you know DOT requests uh out on Smoky Park Highway um and studying it to decide whether you know bigger changes need to happen. Um so the idea is to continue it for a month. Um bring back a uh you know what should be uh finalish design just make sure either the current design is you know what it needs to be or a slightly modified design. Um and then we had already been told our city council would be delayed until February. So it shouldn't actually change our timeline for city council. So, if y'all have any questions, uh I know I haven't heard from some of you about the project. If you have any questions, uh you'd like to ask that I could either answer or relate to the team, I'd be happy to to try to do that. Otherwise, uh we request a continuence to next month's meeting.

Thank you, Mr. Swords. Any questions for the applicant before we consider the request? Just a question about timeline. Do you feel confident that a month is enough or does it make sense to do a two-month continuence? I think a month is enough. Uh we had a staff meeting with staff Monday afternoon where there was some new information um and some clarified information that was kind of critical. So, we're hoping between that and um you just some other things that are kind of happening behind the scenes uh we'll be we'll be ready by then.

Thank you. Thank you. Uh seeing no other questions, I'll make a motion to continue item seven to uh the February 4th, 2026 meeting of the planning and zoning commission. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor, please say I. I. I. Any opposed?

Motion passes unanimously. Thank you. Um, now getting on to our our uh back to our agenda. We begin in the administrative section with a land acknowledgement. As we are gathering today as the planning and zoning commission, the body tasked with reviewing and advising on appropriate land use in the city of Asheville, it is fitting to acknowledge the storied history of this land. We occupy the land of the Cherokee people who have stewarded and been in relationship with these mountains and waterways from time immemorial. This land is occupied through violence, oppression, coercion, broken treaties, and forced relocation. Please join me in expressing respect and gratitude for the present-day Eastern Band of Cherokee, the Cherokee Nation, the United GDUA Band of Cherokee, and all of our indigenous neighbors, as well as the past and present marginalized community members as we seek to join in the healing of the indelible trauma that is embedded in this land. Thank you. Uh we'll now move to the approval of minutes from the December 3rd, 2025 meeting. Any questions or comments on those minutes?

I'll take a motion. Motion to approve the meeting minutes from the December 3rd meeting. I'll second. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Motion passes unanimously. Next up, we have uh updates from committee liaison and workg groups. Do we have any updates this month? No updates from the storm water and flood plane working group. Thank you. No updates from the anti-displacement group.

Um I had a quick question. uh chair or I guess did anyone step up to join you or are you still looking for a buddy to work with you? Um I did have one commissioner express some interest. Yes. Um with the holidays and everything, there just was not a lot of time to really move anything forward. So no, I mean I wasn't pressuring you. I was just saying um my offer stands if you didn't find someone to help you. I was happy to can have three, right? That's not a quorum. Yeah. So, I'll I'll take it. Well, that being said, you know, I'd like to join you with what limited time I do have.

Thank you.

Great. And we can kind of uh later in the agenda, we'll be talking about our annual retreat and that would be a good time to solidify what our working groups are and what we'll be focusing on in the year ahead. Um, next up in the administrative section, we have appointment of a liaison to the multimodal transportation commission. Um, as a reminder, the multimodal transportation commission has only met once in the past year. They've been suspended. Um, as the city focuses its efforts on recovery, they are an important connective tissue with the work that we do. So, um, it is useful to appoint a liaison. We did have uh one commissioner express an interest. Um does that still stand?

Still stands. Is there anybody uh I I would nominate Commissioner Analo to be our liaison. Is there anyone else interested in serving in the role? Should we vote? We'll vote to uh name our newest commissioner as the liaison to multimodal transportation commission. I I made a motion. Anybody have a second? I'll second that motion. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed?

Congratulations and thank you for your service. Next up, we have a staff presentation. um a presentation on the comprehensive plan and development regulations update project. The staff presenting is Chris Collins, Mr. Collins. And I I before we move into this item, um since we did continue the Costco item on the agenda, if anybody is here to speak on that, we won't be accepting public comment. It will be accepted at our next meeting uh February 4th, 2026. So, you may be excused. Okay. Um, good evening commissioners. I am Chris Collins with the city's planning and urban design department. I am

Thank you.

All right. I'm here uh standing in front of you tonight to talk about the upcoming plan and code updates we have uh moving forward for the city of Asheville. Um, excited to tell you about all this. I know we've been kind of rumbling about it, talking about it for a while. So, now we get to get some information. It'll be pretty high level tonight, but a segue into some deeper dives we're going to be doing. All right. So, first of all, what are the kind of started as key takeaways, but also some project goals that I want you to start with and learn about. Um, we're looking to leverage a unique funding opportunity uh to build a more resilient city and modernize our development regulations at the same time. We're implementing, we're looking to implement updates to the comprehensive plan, light and minor updates to the comprehensive plan. Don't think a rewrite of that plan document itself. Um, but we want to bring it up to date. Uh, make sure it reflects what's happened in the last seven years and align it with other city policies. We do anticipate a very large change to the development regulations. And whenever you hear me talk about development regulations, we're of course talking the UDO. We're also talking about the city's standard specifications and details manual. So, that covers things like pavement width and curb rad corner radi and and curbs and all that construction fun stuff. Um, as well as the city's design guidelines that go hand inand with those development regulations. So, we're looking to make improvements and enhance usability there and to collaborate with a consulting team to help your city staff um get through this really large undertaking. Um, we're excited, but it is a big job. We'll be looking to release a request for proposals in late February to get a firm on board to help this move along. Okay. So, an overview of tonight's presentation. We're going to talk about what the project is. We're talk about why. Um, an overview of what the comp

plan and regulations RFP is and what kind of details we're hitting right now. And then we'll move into a timeline and next steps which is going to include the role of this commission which is going to play a very major role in this project and helping the city get this move forward. First of all, what is the project and why are we doing it? Well, I've already told you a little, but we are doing a minor light update to the comprehensive plan to reflect what's happened in the last seven years and uh a major update to the city's development regulations to make corrections, bring things into alignment with the comprehensive plan, and really transition things into the next generation, shape the next several decades of built environment that we see around us. As we do that, we anticipate some challenges that we're going to have to address are the misalignment that we have right now behind between the comprehensive plan and development regulations. I'll speak a little further on that in the next couple of slides. Um, of course, that's like policies. Do we want sidewalks everywhere and do we regulate that sidewalks have to go everywhere? Right? A fragmented and complex code that we have right now. Again, more detail on that coming down the pike, but um we have some really out ofdate and difficult to navigate regulations which impacts compliance which impacts what you see built around you, which impacts what you see brought before you for approval and conditional zonings and the like as well. And a lot of changing conditions since 2018 when the comp plan was uh adopted. We've seen um you know a pandemic, a natural disaster, and a whole slew of other things that have happened to really change what Asheville looks like and what Asheville feels like. So, we really need to take inventory of where we are now and uh get a chance to get our regulations to match our goals. So, this one I want to step back quick primer. I know a lot of people on this

board know how this works, but I don't want to make any assumptions. But um the comprehensive plan is one document. Our development regulations is another set of documents. And the thing to think here is the comprehensive plan informs our regulations. At least that's how it's supposed to work. Um we've have you can look around very easily and find numerous examples in North Carolina alone where the first thing that happens after the comprehensive plan is adopted is the development regulations are rewritten to reflect those goals. Um they've done it recently in Charlotte, uh Durham, um longer ago, but in Raleigh and all sorts of places. Uh in Asheville here, we did not take advantage of that window post 2018 to get that going. Um various well, we didn't get there. So here we are now. Um what is the comprehensive plan? It's going to outline the vision, priorities, goals, and policies. it's going to tell us why we're doing things and the the big picture of where we want to go, right? Um sometimes gets into strategies to how to get there. Some plans get into like even how you're going to pay for it and when it's going to happen. Um but the development regulations contain ordinances that dictate things like whether or not you have to build a sidewalk with a new home, how many trees you have to put in a parking lot, um how many trees you have to preserve when you build, what land use can go on what piece of land. standards like pavement width, curb, radi, other codes specify things like operations and m operations details for certain uses and then specifications like our road standards and things like that. So the goal here is for the comprehensive plan to define the big picture and the development regulations to implement that big picture in our built environment. Why are these necessary? Okay. Okay. So, UDO was created in 1997. That's we're in

2025. So, I'll let y'all do the math. 2026 now. Thank you. Um the comprehensive plan, while much more recent, it was adopted seven years ago, we have not done a wholesale regulations update. We don't believe what's in our UDO right now reflects what the comprehensive plan told us we want to see built in this community. On top of that, the UDO has been amended 297 times since its adoption, and that has resulted in a really large amount of inconsistencies and just kind of broken sections in our UDO, outdated concepts, um, and things that just don't really work. Um, and that's our experience in administering the code. I know even this group has run into that various times. So that was kind of a staging staggering number for us. We're like just three away from 300. Come on. But um there we are. We have other recent plans that really need to be taken into account with our comprehensive plan. Um going real recently, not just plans, plans and things we've called reports. Um everything that was done with the missing middle, things that were done with the the closing the gap plan. Um, and uh, even going as far as like the parks and recck master plan, how does that play into what the comprehensive plan say? Is there any need to reflect any of that in our development regulations and our infrastructure standards? That's something that we really want to see a bridge for and take a moment to reflect and see how these things need to play together. We do have available Helen recovery funding to make this code more resilient and to fund the project right now which is an opportunity um for both resiliency and for all the associated code elements that either fall in place next to it or required to get there. Um, so helps us and we've said this a few

times, the community has changed, right? 1997 we've changed a whole lot. Even since 2018, we've changed a whole lot. Um, so we've got a lot of lot to look at as far as demographics, patterns of development, impacts of the storm, all that. Okay, talking about the project overview. really this is going to talk about what some of the key components that we are putting in an RFP to try and pull in folks to help us with this. Um I will tell you something we're doing which has become increasingly popular out there is one request for proposals for both the comprehensive plan update and the UDO so we can get someone on hook and get started on the project at the same time. I'll when we talk about timeline you'll see some of the advantages there. So for the plan update itself, the comprehensive plan, as you know from what I've said here, is Asheville's guiding long range policy document. Again, this is not a complete rewrite by any measure. We don't anticipate the goals of the comprehensive plan to change. We do anticipate how some of maybe looking at what's happened, how far we've gotten, and how our demographics and economy have changed, what the recent growth and development patterns have been. Um, do they match what we said they were going to be in 2018? How the future land use use map could be updated if it needs to be. Are there areas that have been impacted by things that are currently guided by policy to have development that maybe they shouldn't? Who knows? We've got to do a study on that, right? We'd like to see a greater emphasis placed on resilience and resiliency and recovery for obvious reasons. um we all went through what we went through uh over a year ago. We do also want to take a look at the goals and the strategies of the 2018 plan and take stock of how we how are we doing, right? We already know we didn't do a wholesale up wholesale update of our code, but how are we doing on some

of these other goals? What are our achievements? What is our progress? And we've already mentioned incorporating other recently completed plans and reports as well as already mentioned the alignment of the development regulations with the comprehensive plan. What are our key considerations for the regulations and guidelines updates? We're going to be looking for, of course, fixing discrepancies, inconsistencies, and errors. We'd love to have none of those. um uh implementing rules that promote a built environment that reflects what the comprehensive plan says the community wants it to reflect and implementing user-friendly documents and tools. Our comp plan is is a lovely book, but it's also hundreds and hundreds of pages and we kind of have a vision that we would come out with maybe one pages or easier documents to help us digest and use the plan and the regulations itself. All right, talking about the timeline and next steps. And of course, we said we're going to talk about the role of this group, too. Before we go over the broad timeline I'm going to give you guys now, I want to talk about a few considerations for this timeline and why it looks the way it does. There will be as mainly a part of the development regulations um UDO and such. There'll be a focus on some community engagement that'll be an integral component and it'll be woven throughout that. We don't anticipate as much for the comp plan update being more of a administrative data update and kind of a cleanup and where are we on that rather than a policy change. Um but obviously when you're changing how everything's built, you've really got to get out there. Uh we will as we state as we stated be issuing a RFP for consultants to assist city staff with this. The work on the comprehensive plan will begin first, but you'll see there will be overlap. It's not going to have to be. Let's button this up before we start the next one.

And this is also referred to, but to let you know, to finance the project, um the city has applied for funding for multiple grant programs, each with their own requirements, each with their own timelines. Um some of them we get awarded sooner, some of them later. We have to work within those constraints as well. Um that's also a point on the RFP. There's a whole process you have to go through for those procurement processes. So that takes some time as well. So where are we? Um we are obviously 2025 is on here but it's gone as as we just realized or I just realized up here a second ago. Um when you see preparation up here, we've been working for a while already on a few things. We've been outlining what this project is, the scope of it. We've been filing grant applications, uh, working through the city's purchasing and procurement processes to develop an RFP to, uh, get assistance with this project. All of that's in the preparation phase. And you'll see that started, it probably kind of started a little before July, but we'll say officially July. We're here at the beginning of 2026. This will run until the end of April when we plan to have selected a firm to this project um and have that firm under contract um to start the fiscal year in July one. So if you want to think of project has already started but the official kickoff of actually working on these documents will be when we have that firm on board um looking at July into the summer. Uh we've allowed a generous amount of time for this limited comprehensive plan update on this chart. But the important thing to note here is the development regulations should start around the last season of 2026. Um, regardless of where we are in the comprehensive plan update process, that should run about to the winter of 2028

when we would start the bigger road show of getting these documents reviewed, getting them in front of bodies such as well, planning and zoning commission will be the primary recommending body uh for recommendations for the final document and of course getting it through adoption with city council. um this timeline doesn't show is once it's adopted, once it's real, there's more work to be done on educating and providing materials and making sure everyone knows about it, knows how to use it and all that. But um that is certainly a thing we want to do, but we did stop this at when we anticipate on having new regulations adopted. Next steps and the role of the PCC. So made reference to this already. Uh there is a work session of this group on January 28th of this of this year. We're going to look to work with the PCC to review the scope of this project in more detail, discuss the role of the PCC in the project. We we have some ideas that we want to bounce off you on how we can best work with this group and make the best use of everyone's time and talents and getting this where it needs to be. Um it can be an unwieldy process to review all this as it goes forward. So consider project stakeholders. There are stakeholders certainly outside of staff and consultants and planning and zoning commission. Um but we're going to look for you to help us have that conversation about who else should be involved and and more. We're hoping to have some questions and comments from the group tonight that will help us kind of define what we need to talk about at that session. Beyond that, um again, project RF should be released. We're aiming for February 27th of 2026. We'd look for this group to help us with supporting the spreading of information about this as project liaison. We'll be looking to receive responses by

April 1st of 2026 so that we can get again group under contract um before the beginning of the next fiscal year which is July one for us. And there we go. Can I interject real fast? Yeah. Oh, it's perfect timing. Okay. That's why I was like, I want it. Almost there. Yeah. Um the RFP, you have a date for it to go out. Um but do you have guarantee of funds yet? We uh from the grants. So, we have like multiple funding methods in the in the pot, right? Okay. So, you're there's confidence.

Yeah, we we do have confidence. We've got multiple scenarios on getting the project funded. Um there's scenarios where so much of it comes from this one source and so much from another. There's scenarios where one of them bottoms out completely and we do it all with one source. Um so yeah um we're still waiting on some of the deadlines to close up. That'll all be should be all done by February 27th on on some of the funding sources, but that's awesome. Yeah. Okay. Can you say what the funding sources are? Yeah, I mean absolutely. There are there are applications in for community development block grant disaster relief funds to assist with this as well as hazard mitigation grant program um planning program funds.

Okay. And the first one we've received we haven't received well this project hasn't received any of them yet. Um, but we're in process and anticipating results from the first round of applications for DR money. Um, should be before we release an RFP. But yeah, I mean, point taken. We want to make sure we can do the project before we go procuring someone. But um, yeah, we're trying to work with contingencies to make sure we're in good shape. Okay. And go ahead. Are any of the um already allocated CDBG funds going to be going towards this project? Already allocated

like the amount that was just given to the city. Yes. So there's a certain percentage of that that goes much like HMGP there's a certain percentage that goes to planning um functions and um it is already allocated to the city. Correct. Yeah. So I'm looking and that's that percentage we're looking to work out of that planning pool. Okay. And I'll use this, it's partially a question. Is the CDBGR to clarify, it's the city's pot of CDBGR, not the states pot. Correct. The city has its own allocation. Yeah.

And in the action plan that the city crafted and got HUD approval, there was um a set aside for planning dollars in the city's plan, not so in the state's plan. And so I think it's really um it is best practice to have planning dollars because we all know that disaster recovery takes planning. So I think that that was forward thinking that that was baked into the action plan. It's great to see that this is one of the activities that will u make use of those funds hopefully. Absolutely.

Um thanks Mr. Collins. I guess I have one kind of burning question and it's on the timeline. I mean obviously it takes time to do all this. Um you know projected adoption of new stuff in 2028. In between now and 2028 is staff going to take a stance that we don't do any intermittent UDO updates? Are we pausing that or are we still going to be ongoing improving or like what or is there a stance or a thought behind that yet? Um, all right. Because I mean, I appreciate that we're trying to update it as a big chunk, but two years is time for builders, developers, community.

Typ typically, when you're gearing up for this kind of thing, you would kind of pull back on any substantial UDO amendments and and we've kind of told you all that in the past, right? Um, and I think that's kind of mainly where we're going to operate from. If we receive direct uh explicit direction to work on something, we obviously will and bring it forward to you. um or if there's something that is necessitated by uh policy makers that we need to work on that'll come forward. We aren't necessarily coming up with kind of new ideas for fixes in the code right now unless we're directed to do so. That makes sense. I mean, obviously there's only so many work hours in a week, but I guess I mean, so you're saying it's not like you're

not going to look at it just you we're not applying resources until there's a burning need, desire, or mandate, right? It's it's not I guess I'm saying it's a soft soft note. I mean there's there we will work on things if they need to even on this existing code. Maybe we can get it up to 300 times before we get there.

Let's let's shoot for that. No, I I think it's a great question, Commissioner Faircloth, and I do think um I'm glad that we're presenting a realistic timeline. We always know timelines drift. So, you know, it could be well into 2029 before we have actually enacted new development regulations. So, that is a long time to continue to suffer under our broken UDO. Um, but it you got to start somewhere. Um, I would hope that we can uh do some continue to do some surgical fixes to to help facilitate development knowing that the timeline for recovery dollars is really a six, sevenyear time horizon. So, if we are pushing development regulation four years out, we're going to kind of miss that window of disaster recovery quite a bit. to that point, can you speak to city council's role in this and kind of how that interacts with our role in this process?

So, yes, we are going to dive deeper into your role. I'm going to tell you that this this is the group that makes the recommendation to city council on this. There'll be probably other recovery and advisory boards that get to see this, give some input. Um but officially per state statute and our local ordinances, the planning and zoning commission recommendation is the official recommendation that goes to city council when this is all wrapped up. Right. Um so officially city council's role would be to act on that recommendation. We do plan on having touch points with them um through council committees at certain points throughout this process. Uh and that's pretty much where we are right now. So um we do often hear things through the grapevine and various communications that we got to kind of work out or work in there but officially in channelized I think that the council committees would be our main way to go. Um this is a long process perhaps I mean we haven't planned this out yet. Perhaps there's like a mid-process update to council or something like that because we are talking about years here. So

can you speak at all to like how the funding sources are potentially earmarked or like limited in the kinds of updates that we can do under you know the restrictions of those dollars essentially like would we be able to would we only be able to update development regulations regarding resiliency for example instead of other changes somewhat sure it's and some of that's still kind of and I say somewhat because some of that's still kind of being worked out through the application process. Um I will say HMGP planning dollars are tighter on um what they can be applied to than CTBGDR dollars.

Um so that gives us a little freedom to move with it. And that's kind of where we talked about this funding contingencies. When HMGP comes back, which is a long process, um it's not going to cover everything, right? But we already know that it's going to cover some directly flood or um directly flood and storm water related issues most likely. That's where the DR would kick in. So that's what we really anticipate is that kind of mix of funding right there. Um

so the combination would give us more flexibility or something. Okay. But we do have contingencies built in just in case, you know, we don't have to wait on the the very long timeline of HMGP to to get to work on this project. So, do you expect to use any of the general fund for this? Uh, it's not programmed at this time. Um, okay. So, there's not a local match requirement. No.

No. Um, you might have said this in the presentation, I missed it, but like since there's two parts of this, the comp plan kind of light update and the UDL heavy update, like is PNZ involved in both of those portions of the project or absolutely. Yeah. Um, we we've we've started thinking about as one project because we've been in like grant land and RFP development. So, um, they really are like a mini project and a big project, right? um two big projects. But as far as you know, we were talking earlier or at some point about kind of the powers and duties of the planning and zoning commission. We do expect you guys to work with us on the comprehensive plan update. Um I think the update will be some refreshed documents we probably want to get official recommendations on and certainly want your guidance on as we go through it. But that's uh also what I'm mentioning. I want to hear some stuff from you that really talks about what we should dive into at the work session as well. So that's helpful.

Will it be primarily work sessions where we kind of dive into this stuff or will we have a a subset group or how do you imagine us really kind of getting into the meat of the work? Those are all really great questions um that I hope that we can come to an answer on on January 28th. Okay.

I would see a lot of the votes happening for official recommendations, whether that's one big vote or many small votes on sections at hopefully maybe regular meetings, but we'll just have to see how that cadence works out. without getting, you know, deep in the weeds on the comp plan side, is um is there anticipation that some of the updates would be subtractive or are we all just kind of adding things that we have learned since 2018? So we are we are open to hear about other experiences when we have a consultant on board and through we've had a lot of conversations with places like Charlotte and Durham and uh who else Gaston County and places who've done this recently. Um they were all much larger. They were really brand new comp plans rolling into a UDO. So we're kind of in a unique unique place right now. Um I don't see see it really being subtractive. Um, but I don't want to like fully commit to anything quite yet on what that looks like. What I can tell you right now is like we want to see what's happened since adoption, right? We want to see what the development patterns are in detail. We want to see um, you know, laid out against comp plan goals and future land use, what are the storm impacts? And, uh, here just since I'm forgetting one This will help me,

right? See where we've come with our uh goals and and things we said we wanted to do in the 2018 plan. See how far we've come. See what's left to do. Um and I we've always talked about a big thing about we always say modular modularize the plan, be able to plug in other plans to the comp plan that come along um so that we can focus on those being part of the comprehensive plan as well for the city. Um, so those are it's just a kind of a assortment of things we think we're going to juggle and hope to get in there. Um, but we're certainly moving into it with an open mind as we hear more from other places and when we bring in a team to help us through this.

I'll just add I think that if if this it looks like it could foray into more than just like a data update, which I would then encourage you to ensure that there's, you know, appropriate community engagement regarding all of that to the extent that you're talking about. you know, changing the future land use news map and incorporating additional, you know, priorities and things like that. Yeah, I think we're gonna try and limit that. And you make a really good point, right? It's easy for things to grow and grow and grow. Um, but we're going to try and put a cap on this from the beginning when we get the official project scope going with our consultants and

keep the comp plan light so that we can move into the because we are not at the horizon yet time wise. we need to really do like a full complaint update, right? We're seven years in. It's been a pretty loaded seven years. Um, but we do think it's the most responsible thing to check in with where we are with our comp plan before we start writing code. I have a question about the Go ahead. Oh, sorry.

I have a question about the work session at the end of the month. Will that at that time will we be discussing specific things that will be added into the comp plan or is it more about just the progression of the project itself in terms of scope? I think at the 28th we'll be looking more at like scope of the project. Um there's room for open conversations and to go ahead and start recording ideas y'all have or thoughts you have. I think that's always a good idea. Um but we're working on that agenda now. So let you know. I think it's mostly going to be scope focused and figuring out how to this group interacts with this process.

Um, kind of bouncing off um that question. Um, I'd like if there's any way before that work session, it doesn't have to be long, but like could staff provide like a list, hey, here's the five main questions or or or just some some kind of like homework list or like is there something we should read beforehand? Or are you just going to say read the whole UDO? you know, if there's one or two things we could be prepared for or if there's like some five or six burning questions that we need to focus on, I just I'd rather spend the whole meeting talking about the action items and the defining why we're here just beforehand. Yeah, I think that's totally doable. We can

even if it's only like a week or something beforehand, I think that'd be helpful. We'll get an agenda out to you um as early as possible and try and include some supplemental information about like here's what you can do to prepare, right? And to to that end, I think um you know, one thing that has been requested by this commission previously is um just reports on development trends and data. And there is a presentation I think scheduled a couple days before our work session at the peed committee where they'll be hearing kind of report back from development services on development trends and data. Maybe, maybe not. I think that got put off till February. I did it

today. So, that's hot off the press, but yeah. Um, but I think we can probably have some stuff ready for you on the 28th. Gotcha. Well, thank you. This is really exciting. I think um the entire time I've been on planning and zoning commission and I think much before uh there's been a a growing chorus of voices saying the UDO is broken. So, it's it's great to see an intentional, thoughtful process to to finally uh tackle it. We're all very excited to work with you all on it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Next up, we'll move into our public hearings portion of the agenda. Uh we have a request to reszone the property located at 22 Broad Street from residential multifamily medium density RM8 to community business 1 CB1. The property is identified with a pin on the agenda. The property owner is Kimberly Winters and Matthysse Hero Menow. Uh the applicant contact is Mr. Wyatt Edol, Planner Coordinating Review is Will Palmquist. And before you begin, Mr. Palmquist, I did want to uh disclose that this applicant uh does have a financial relationship with my employer, Mountain Housing Opportunities. Mountain Housing Opportunities is the benefactor of um a fundraising event that they annually conduct through the Kim Winters team of Movement Mortgage. I do not believe it impairs my impartial judgment on this matter, but wanted to disclose that for the board. Any advice from city legal on whether this might constitute a conflict in the matter? yourself very decision. So the board doesn't need to really do oh did I don't to do any anything um unless you somebody objects and thinks that he should recuse himself and then you would raise that

I mean this you don't have any relationship of this specific lot or plans to have any? No. No. Any any other concerns or can I remain on the bench? Um I'm fine with um Commissioner Barton still being here. I don't think that he has a direct relationship with this specific project, but um I don't know if other commissioners feel the same. Yeah, I'm fine. Yep. I'm fine. I'm okay with it, too. Thank you. Uh, I'll remain here. Mr. Palmquist.

Great. Thank you, chair. Good evening, commissioners. Will Palmquist with Planning and Urban Design. I'll be giving this presentation for the resoning request for 22 Broad Street, which is a straight resoning request from the residential multifamily medium density RM8 district to the community business one CB1 district. Uh, some quick facts on the request. It's a straight reszoning request. There's no plans or anything associated with this resoning. It's almost a quarter acre site and staff is recommending approval of the request. Here are the location maps uh for the property uh just about a half mile or so north of downtown on Broad Street near uh Marman Avenue in the location of a favorite restaurant in Asheville there. Um you can see the location is near some other um office uses multifamily residential and then some single family residential and um religious institutional uses too in the area. Uh so here's the existing and proposed zoning map. Uh you can see the existing um RM8 um that the that the property is in and the boundary between the RM8 and the CB1. Uh the proposed zoning would basically shift that line a little bit one property to the east to include uh this property. Here's a breakdown of the uh different requirements and allowances in those two districts. Really the major uh difference between the two districts is that the CB1 district does allow for commercial office and retail uses. There are some smaller considerations too that there are no density limitations um for multif family development in the in the CB1. There are opportunities for reduced front setbacks and smaller side and rear yard setbacks. And there's also no parking required for residential uses in most commercial uses in the CB1.

Uh so looking at the compatibility and the compliance of um this resoning request, uh staff finds that the resoning request is uh would would make this resoning compatible with the surrounding zoning districts. Uh we talked about the the site being adjacent to CB1 uh to the west. There's some community business 2 to the south, office, and then highway business uh conditional zone across Marman Avenue to the west. You can see the um purpose of the CB1 uh district that talks about uh community and neighborhood serving uh retail and commercial uses. Regarding the future land use review, staff finds that the request is compatible with the future land use designation which is already a traditional corridor that's described as kind of a main street with a variety of land uses such as commercial, office and residential at variety of scales. The CB1 district is cited as an appropriate zoning district within the commercial traditional corridor future land use category. infrastructure was not evaluated as there's no development proposed with this request. And then finally, staff finds that uh the request um is consistent with goals and strategies in the comprehensive plan such as to encourage responsible growth by ensuring that new development has appropriate infrastructure to support it and to facilitate real estate development that maximizes public benefit. staff has identified a few pros of the resoning request. Um, it would allow for a wider array of commercial, office, and retail uses. Uh, it encourages the preservation and conversion of the existing residential structure on the property into a different commercial oriented use potentially. And it's also consistent with the development pattern along the section of Broad Street where a lot of former residences are now being

used for commercial and office type uses. staff did not identify any consu uh with this resoning. Therefore, uh based on the cumulative uh compliance review of this resoning request, staff does recommend approval is before you this evening with a tenative city council hearing date of January 27th. And I'm glad to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Palmquist. Um any questions from the commission? Can you speak to the shared driveway between the adjacent property and if that would be used as access to this commercial business?

Um, I can only speculate on that. Um, that if the building was to remain, um, it's likely that the shared driveway would remain. Um, if there's any if there's any redevelopment of the site, they could consider a different driveway access, uh, for sure. Um, some of those agreements are usually between private parties as well. Um, so it might be hard for us to know for sure what that would consist of. It might be predicated on the existing footprint and development on on that building. Um, but but if that building was to remain, um, it's my understanding that that shared driveway would continue to exist as it is. Okay.

And it's a driveway easement as far as you know. uh maybe not an easement. I believe it's like an agreement between the ne the the two adjacent property owners to to share and and uh either maintain that driveway in a certain way. Um usually uh outside the city's direct purview except to um allow for those kinds of driveway cuts and and that kind of thing. Right. So there's nothing there's no there's nothing on a plat is what you're saying. Not to my knowledge. I don't remember seeing anything like that.

Well, and and as a reminder, what we are looking at is a straight resoning request. So, we're tasked with evaluating all the potential uses of the um of the applied for resoning CB1. Um, it seems fairly clear in this case that it's there's a use restriction in the current zoning that would be relieved by a reszoning to CB1, but for the purposes of our determination recommendation, it's we're looking at this as all the available uses within CB1, not necessarily a specific site plan for a specific project. Correct.

Um, which I understand that, but I guess justformational question for myself. So when something's reszoned, any existing easements still stay there. The reasonzoning doesn't erase any That's correct. Rightway or inner property easements that remains with the plat. Okay. Yep. Absolutely. So if there was a driveway easement, it's still in place. You're not removing access for that adjacent owner. Yeah. Gotcha. about the uh ADA parking that's being added. Is that uh additional parking that's being added to the property and there will be redevelopment on the back half of the lot or is it a a conversion of the existing parking?

Uh I believe it's going to be at the rear of the property. Um that's yeah like like Jeff was saying chair bar was saying it's it's kind of out of the street zoning purview but that is my understanding is that um is that it's not necessarily going to be an on street space. Um so they they've they've submitted that information. Uh that might be kind of based on what their their future uses are and building code and that kind of stuff. Is there on street parking on Broad Street there? Think there is. I believe so, but I can't. Gosh, can we see it on the aerial? Yep.

Yeah, both sides. Okay. Y purely hypothetical, but since the resoning request is to facilitate a broader use for potential office, my guess would be that the ADA parking space is a requirement of being a facility of public accommodation. So, as opposed to a residence. Um, so they're pro they're probably providing that information even though it's not really relevant to the reasonzoning. That's that's more tracks with an anticipated use, right? Should we invite the applicant to provide any additional information if they so choose? Sure.

Please uh introduce yourself in the mic. And hey, I'm Wyatt Edil Edsil Engineering um representing the owner for this reasonzoning request. Don't know that I have anything to add beyond what will presented here, but I'm available for questions if you have any. Any questions of the applicant? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Further deliberation. Oh yeah, my favorite part. Thank you, Commissioner Faircloth. Uh,

we will open for public comment at 5:59. Anyone here? Would you like to have a public comment? Not seeing any. We will close public comment at six o'clock. Um, further deliberation. I mean, it it seems straightforward to me. Um, it seems to be creating more uses for the land. And I mean, I think the only thing the change in zoning knocks out is cottage developments from what I can tell. So overall, it seems to be opening up use to the land, which I'm for. So I don't have any qualms.

Any other comments? If not, I'll I'll entertain a motion. Sounded kind of close to a motion.

I'll go for it if no one else has something to say. Uh you I move to recommend approval of the reszoning request for the property located at 22 22 Broad Street from residential multif family medium density RM8 community business 1 CB1 and find that the request is reasonable is in the public interest is consistent with the city's comprehensive plan and meets the development needs of the community in that the request one ensures the new development has the appropriate infrastructure to support it and two establishes accessible and well-connected commercial nodes consistent with the strategies outlined in the plan's growth areas. Second.

We have a motion and we'll give the second second. We have a second. All those in favor, please say I. I. I. I.

Any opposed? Motion passes unanimously. Best of best of luck. And since we continued item seven on our agenda, we'll jump down to um other business. Uh consideration of amendments to the commissioner's rules of procedure. Um we received a good report last time and had a a wholesome discussion of some some clarifications we'd like to see. Um so we now have kind of a holistic red line. Um we did talk about this a little bit in the premeating and uh there were two items in particular that were discussed. One of which was adding a clarification to term length. Did that so we now have um an updated revision adding unexpired terms shall not count towards the maximum term limit. Does that sufficiently clear that issue? What section is that again?

2B. 2B. Let me just read it real quick. Should it say maybe partial or unexpired terms or commissioners appointed to fulfill an

Yeah, I thought we were going to take the section that's it's under the um chair and vice chair and it talks more fully about unexpired terms. Um, we were just gonna move. Keep going. I thought you we found it. And we were just gonna We were looking at it earlier. Was it on their chair? I We had it up.

That one. We're going to take E. I think this is what you wanted. See that? And we're just going to move it into the membership section. Is that what you wanted? We we'll get rid of the the chair. It would apply to all members, not just the chair or the vice chair, but it's that what well some's about voting, but yeah, this is I think what really more about officers, not necessarily term, you know.

Okay. So, is it enough to just just have that added sentence about that doesn't doesn't include unexpired terms in the membership or did you want it to be more clarified what filling unexpired terms? I think it's good with the additional phrase of um commissioners appointed to fill unexpired terms because unexpired term is you know kind of what is that it's it's what's left right the leftover you know term yeah exactly it doesn't if someone resigns or

you could theoretically do two years and 11 months and then another two more three year terms after that theoretically. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Can we just add at the beginning commissioners uh what commissioners appointed to serve unexpected terms shall not count towards the maximum term limits.

Something like that. Um yeah, we can we can word this a little bit. Yeah, I can pull some language from that vice chair one and um but not and just to make that clear. So we could add one more separate sentence you think? Yeah, it may have all members shall serve commissioners appointed because here the object of the sentence is the term, right? Maybe it'll be five. See, that says vacancies shall be filled and then maybe we'll do five,

you know, commissioners appointed to unex to to unexpired terms. Yeah, vacancy. Yeah, we'll just put a placeholder for like a five and then we'll we'll put some language. She'll serve out the remaining term of the vacancy and then the two terms will apply or something, right? Or and that shall not apply successfully. Okay, I think that makes sense. Yeah, we can we can do that and then um if with that change, if it does get approved, then we'll we'll get finalize it and then get the chair to to sign it once once it's all complete, review it one last time if that's okay.

Yep. And then the other item that was a little bit more substantive and sounded like we might need to have further conversations or staff might need to have internal deliberations is around um subcommittees or their or similar subset groups. uh this would be section three under appointment of subcommittees and I think um from our premeating the purpose that gave staff pause was fulfillment of our obligations under open meetings law. I think the concern that I have is a little different which is fulfillment of our chartered duties in section 32 of the UDO and who operationalizes the investigation of a um study or survey of the city's built environment. Um, so I think it's sort of maybe two different questions. What what protects the city in making sure that we're adhering to open meetings law, which I don't think any of us have a problem with, but then um where does the where does the duty fall? Is it within staff to delegate or is it within the planning and zoning commission to initiate? So, I still have I still do have some concern about the um the language saying that um approval must be obtained from its staff liazison, department director, assistant city manager

before the subgroup can be formed or commence work. and whether that uh is is consistent with our charge under the UDO but open to thoughts or impressions from others. Can you read that section of the UDO that you're referencing?

Yeah. So, under section 732 that lays out the powers and duties of the Asheville Planning and Zoning Commission, it says without limiting any authority granted to the Asheville Planning and Zoning Commission by law or regulations, the Asheville Planning and Zoning Commission shall have the following powers and duties to be carried out in accordance with the terms of this chapter. And then it enumerates six distinct ones. Duty number three is to perform studies and surveys of the present conditions and probable future development of the city and its environs, including but not limited to studies and surveys of land uses, population, traffic, parking, and redevelopment needs. It's not a it's not often utilized. It really hasn't been um an active duty that has has been used by the planning and zoning commission. But by conferring the sort of um authority to be held by city staff to operationalize a subcommittee, it it feels like it's no longer up to the planning and zoning commission to determine when something presents itself as an issue worthy of consideration. What if we put some kind of clause in that said like that approval not to be unreasonably withheld or to to inhibit the authority of the planning and zoning commission as defined by the UDO?

I I think that would be great, you know, just to be cross referential. Um because I I don't think it's I I certainly think this is the the goal of this is to be consistent across all boards and commissions and I understand that. But planning boards are a little different and so I would just want to make sure that it's not it doesn't become too cumbersome. So I I do I like that addition of language, you know, except

I' I'd have to get approval from the city attorney for that. I know it seems like a minor change, but I don't really see the conflict because what council's authority is and what they have been clear about is they do want to limit maybe not they're not talking about a particular one, but they want to have some input and hear from staff about what is considered a a appropriate subcommittee or plan or any of these duties. They want to be able to say yes, we're okay with the board, the commission going in that direction. And so by by I don't want to set the commission up with saying to council, well, we don't think that was reasonable council that you told us that we can't pursue that. council wants the authority to to be able to say to say exactly as as it's written and that template is what has been approved by the city council and they want all boards and commissions to adhere to that. So I I I see what you're saying. You might this is a duty that you can undertake. You could certainly I I'm not usually you are pretty much in sync. So, I think that this board could make a good case to say we really need a subcommittee to do X, Y, and Z. And I don't think you're going to be denied that. Um, because it should be in sync with

we could still do it outside of a subcommittee, I guess, under that language. Well, or but you know as written and that's what we maybe need to get clarified as says any subcommittee or similar subset group because the purpose is we want to make sure that the city is here is adhering very faithfully to open meetings laws and and you'll get no disagreement about that from me. Um so I think that's the if it just said any subcommittee then

well the subset group it's just trying to say that again what what come what the this tries to say this is from the template tries to define what the legal department's been trying to explain for a long time to general boards is the difference between this working group which doesn't have an official task versus a subcommittee or a sometimes they're called task force that have an official charge from their planning and zoning commission. So to carry out the duty that you're seeing in the UDO, it would have to come up that you know we we'd like to pursue this study. And again, I've never had this come up because and you're all very committed folks, but there's I've never seen this board set up a subcommittee to start their own study because you usually have to have staff support to do that. Staff is the one that does a lot of the work and you might do some of the leg work, but to do an actual study, to commission an actual study, it it hasn't happened. So, I'm just I'm just saying that I think if you feel like we you want a study or you want an official subcommittee, I think you you would be in alignment. I mean, the request will be considered and I think as long as you've you know present why this is important, I it's hard for me to imagine that city council and staff would not approve it. But if they don't then that's the will of you know council.

So you mentioned city council but it's not mentioned in the document.

I guess I think what Miss Ashley was saying and please correct me if I'm wrong was city council approved the new guidelines for boards and commissions that would be applied across the board. And so that is their directive. But you're right, it's, you know, it is city staff and staff liaison that are mentioned in the rules and procedures and so but they're not mentioned in the charge of our duties. So in the UDO it doesn't say um subject to approval by city staff you know and so to me it is kind of a symbolic transfer of power of you know we are charged with being an independent planning board bringing an independent lens to the review of matters in the public interest related to land use regulation. What the boards and commissions document does is makes it subject to city staff approval, which is not as written in the UDO.

I mean, could the duties still be carried out as a as a group of the whole because this is only talking about subcommittees, right? And the UDO just says generally. So you could still presumably carry out the duties in the UDO without necessarily going through the the subcommittee approval process that's laid out here.

And that was you know when we had uh we we had some momentum over a year ago to form some subcommittees that did not gain support from staff and that you know that may be where some of this comes from. Um, so yeah, I think it could be handled as a full commission that I guess we were hoping that there's some common sense that we don't want to have nine-hour meetings all the time. And, you know, tasking certain members with investigating, listening, and reporting back seems like a much more efficient use of the full meeting time. And I think that the change is that in the prior document was it says which is now being struck through the chair shall appoint any committees necessary to investigate any matter before the commission. So it is sort of transferring that to subject to approval by staff. Um again totally agree we're in alignment we don't have challenges but there is a transfer of some authority um back to the city. And I I guess my question is is that okay?

I think another point I want to make kind of in addition to what we're saying is in the UDO and our charges number four is the formulation of text amendments something like that. I think I would argue also something we couldn't I mean we sometimes word smith things very briefly in our meetings but to formulate a entire text amendment that's something we would have to do outside of a meeting I I don't think we could do a study during a meeting as well. So, it does seem like there's a real misalignment and I would I would want to ask council how how this

and and just to add to that a little bit, I think it's we're pointing to the UDO and the UDO is kind of soft right now because it can be it's going to be rewritten, but and 160D-301 these duties very similarly as laid out here are laid out within the North Carolina charter. They are, but council also this is the UDO. So this is city law and it's council that they could have cut any of those. They council could have said they just have general duties and not specified. So it's it's like may these may be duties of the planning and zoning commission. Um in 160D it's may the UDO is shall.

Okay. So I'm saying that this this is what council has has said that these are your powers and duties. I think that will makes a good point that um the assumption without thinking about how this could re how it really works is you do do it as a body and you you know it it may end up being you can have midmon meetings, you can have other things, but this subcommittee thing and workg groups was starting to just get out of hand and often run a foul of open meetings law. So that's where that concern was and um if you can if it comes up that you're like we'd like to do these duties but we we need this we can't do it we don't have enough time as a full committee that's when you'll have the discussion about a subcommittee and again I I really have to believe since these are the duties that council authorized that you if you make the case and they're they're not it's not going to be I mean staff is not going to staff is going to work with you on that. So I can't approve of a a change to your rules that is to me contrary to the template that was approved by council. So that's why the language is I I understand what what you're saying why you think there's it's not necessarily a clear conflict. It's just how do we do these tasks without subcommittees, but you haven't had that many subcommittees? I mean, in the past to do any of these duties and I know

haven't been allowed to. I you only started going Yeah, it's only I know it just started to go down that path, but then it wasn't an actual subcommittee. It was Anyway, you now this is this is this is the direction coming from council. So, as a procedural question, if we were to want a subcommittee, how does that look? Because as it's written, it's three different staff, city staff members. So, are we making this request at a formal meeting and all of those city staff members need to be present or

No, it would be raising it at the planning and zoning meeting. We think we need a subcommittee. Then staff taking it then taking the request to city manager and city attorney's office to approve. So it would happen in an open meeting so everyone the public could know you know planning and zoning wants to go down this path. they've explained why you know this is important to get your your duties done and why it's necessary and then there would be agreement that you know it's I guess aligned with and you can speak better to this but planning all departments have their own work what is it called work plan that gets submitted to council so that's part of it too ensuring that the department's work plan is in sync think with the commissions that you know um

so where do sorry go ahead

I was for for a few for a few this might be kind of groundhog dayish because um you've heard us say this before but you know we go through the annual work plan creation system to try and and we do that subsequently to council having their retreats and establishing their uh strategic goals and all that stuff. So, we're working through an approved work plan of approved projects that we almost have enough staff to do. Um, and it gets difficult. That's the logistic side, right? It gets difficult to add new directives to that. And even if this group works on those in a subcommittee, it does add new staff work, which is okay. But what I'm going to say next is based on the presentation I just gave y'all, I think this is going to be a pretty busy group for a while. Um, and it's very possible we could be saying we we need the planning and zoning commission to have some subgroups or something while we're doing this to work on some things. Um, so I think our next our our upcoming next couple years are going to be a little different. Um, if that helps at all. I know that if we want to try and make a change, it sounds like Janice will have to take it back and then we'll bring it back to you next meeting um and see what we can do. But um in the meantime, I guarantee you're going to have plenty of work to do and we're probably going to be working closely and utilizing this group to the m best of our ability. So,

I mean, I kind of agree with adding some kind of language to say that this won't interfere with the UDO and of course the UDO can change in the future and that's fine, but at least you've got that language to refer to. I think the other thing which you know once we get it right I I don't see an issue with is amendments have to be approved by the city's attorney's office whereas you know as written currently it's just by affirmative vote of a simple majority. I understand how that could sow chaos, but um I I have some hesitation in moving forward until we resolve this because we won't be able to amend it again without

city permission.

Well, if that's the request, it's a little different saying this isn't cons inconsistent with the the UDO than to say, you know, approval won't be unreasonably uh withheld because that is saying this pits this group against the that that council directed order of approval and I I would have to get to check in and I will I'll check in with the city attorney city management and see if they agree. Uh, I'm trying to think of other maybe um we could write something to say won't be unreasonably withheld as long as it's consistent with the duties that are outlined in the UDO or some so it it narrows it. It's not like you can just come out of left field and say, "Okay, we want to go down this path."

I think that's what it's about. Those paths are pretty general, too. I mean, powers and duties are pretty general,

but I think that's what it's about is, you know, being able to fulfill the duties of this body, you know, formulating. I think that's a great point that Commissioner Bell raised. It's like we're creating structure that is going to inhibit our ability to formulate. we we haven't been able to formulate much in the past year and a half um because we haven't resolved what what the process is and you know some some UDO text amendments are extraordinarily simple to author understanding that on the back end this staff has to do a lot of work to analyze. Um but we could change the use table to make uh you know to eliminate discrimination of single family duplex and town homes with very very minor text edits. That doesn't take a lot of work session work but it maybe takes deliberation by the body in an open meeting. We haven't been able to do things like that because we haven't had the right structure in place. And I I worry that we're going to be trying to pursue things that then consistently are told this doesn't fit within the work plan and are immediately dismissed. Maybe. Yeah. So it sound I mean maybe there's not comfort level adopting as is. We have some questions. Um we can work together between now and the next meeting to

I'll talk to attorney about potential language. Um you think I can powers that that you might you might be exempt from this process if it's clearly within do it's a subcommittee that's clearly needed to exercise the powers. But again, it's pretty broad, but I I can try and then maybe Jeffrey I can come up with some draft language attorney says it.

Does that sound Yeah. Good. Okay. Thank you. I had one more question if that's okay on some another topic. Uh there was one version that removed a telephone or virtual meeting option. And then the version that we're looking to approve still has a section on page eight. uh at the top of page eight, the roll call votes that still mention virtual and hybrid meetings. So, does that still need to be there? I just got a little confused.

No, you're right. I meant to strike the when I realized this this commission is not going to have hybrid meetings and so I stroke struck that language. So, this we'll strike that too. That's a good

great catch. Thank you for that. Any last comments, questions? We'll stay tuned for more on this next time. I appreciate all the debate and I hope st I know on the subcommittee workg groupoup thing it it's been an ongoing thing for a while and it's frustrating to all sides but I don't think we're trying to cause more headache for staff but I do think we're trying to figure out how to use what we feel like is like stuff from 160D and from the city council that we're allowed to do and we just don't understand how to do that. So I think I think there is some friction there, but like I understand how much one simple sentence or change from this group is hours and weeks of work from the staff's time. I think we realize that like there's a whole back end to anything done here. And I I'm sympathetic to that. But I feel like we got to find an an agreed upon ground um between us and staff. And and and to add to that, I I want to reiterate I'm I'm actually very excited to to based on the presentation that Mr. Collins gave um work closely with staff on on these upcoming changes and I think we will be putting in a lot of work that I think we're all eager to do.

I I agree with that and I'm really excited that um Mr. Collins and staff has suggested that. My my frustration is it's like all right, we can have a subcommittee when staff says it's okay, but not when they don't. Like, do they have that authority? And like Yeah. Yeah. That's my frustration. Well, and to add to that, I think it's for me it's also understanding the procedure because we also don't want to do work that won't go anywhere, right? So even if we're excited about something and spending our time looking into it, we want to make sure that staff will work with us on whatever that may be. So I think it's really just important to have as much clarity as possible.

Thank you. And I do I understand I mean other staff does as well and I know I'm might seem like the bearer like we have to do this but I've I don't know how many boards and commissions I sit on and these templates have come up and I don't know how many conversations I've had about workg group versus um subcommittee and I I do appreciate this board paying this much attention to the the rules and making sure that it fits with your understanding of how this is this board has worked and how you're able to to carry out your duties. So, I do appreciate that and it, you know, I I will do my best to figure out a way that we can, you know, hopefully get some language that everybody can clarify for both. you know that you're not trying to go rogue and go down a path that nobody else wants, but at the same time, you don't want to necessarily be stopped in the process from doing things that you you all decided you wanted to be on this commission to do. So, we understand that.

Appreciate you. Thank you. Last up, we have a discussion of the PZC annual retreat and work session discussion. And we touched on this a few times during the meeting. Um the goal of just putting it on the agenda was to revisit we have a couple of new commissioners since last time we um brainstormed around what we hope to accomplish. Um Mr. Collins provide a good framework of what um what we think might be a fruitful use of the time, but just wanted to solicit any feedback of uh hopes and wishes out of our time together outside of our regular meeting.

Do we have notes from that session where we talked about the retreat? because that was a while ago and I just want to refresh my mind on our priorities and make sure that we are able to discuss them all since we're kind of doubling up this work session with our retreat. Yeah, Mr. Pomquist shared um some notes, I don't know, a week and a half ago or so. Yeah, a while ago. Um I can try to re-upload them or resend them out to everyone. um kind of pull them up if I can find them.

It's you know I think we it's always striking a balance of our ambition and we don't want to have I feel like the retreats in the past we've had too many topics and have not invested the time and um solidifying how we'll advance the work. So my my goal and I think one of the suggestions I think you made Commissioner Bell at our prior brainstorm was um almost as an icebreaker having a skillshare. We all come with different skill sets and backgrounds. So maybe we just open by saying here's a tool that I use when doing project review and that can be sort of the gateway in to revealing some tools or approaches that not everyone's aware of. But then I think this the main substance would be looking ahead evaluating where we sit with the work plan how we can um do our fulfillment of duties within the UDO on on kind of the long-term comp plan UDO rewrite. Um there we also when we got together there was a lot of discussion around flood resiliency and um you know doing a a survey of what work needs to happen in land use regulation. So that's still something I think we don't want to put the lessons learned from Helen behind us. that's I think very fruitful for conversation

and maybe we can get into that in the the scoping of

this big effort because I think it it should be woven in those lessons learned but thank you for for reminding me about the skills skillshare. So, I just want to bring that back up and um challenge everyone to to bring something, a tool, a map, a reference, a website, whatever it is. Um bring that, share that with the whole group and maybe I mean I was imagining kind of a demo. We may have not have time for that, but at least give us enough information to then be able to go look it up and find it and be able to use it. How long is the retreat?

So, we currently have it slated from like 1 to 5 p.m. and we have a uh tentative venue um based on uh cost and availability. I'm using Hera's uh press room. It's on the arena level. I've never been there, but it's like a medium to small size room that's good for like 20 or so folks. So we'll get out of the confines of city hall and feel a little freer to discuss. So there's not like we don't have a set agenda quite yet. I'm catching up here a little bit. I apologize. No, I think today like you know I think this discussion let's u get those like most burning topics that we want to tackle and then I'll work with um staff and our vice chair to solidify it before I think it will be helpful to have an agenda for the for the day. So we'll

so I work to put that together. Okay, I agree. I guess I guess to starters is are we just in general are we giving half of that retreat time to the upcoming UDO comp plan stuff versus half to our discretion or like you know or or is this UDO comp plan stuff going to take all four hours?

Yeah, I think it depends on what you all want to prioritize and how much other business you want to get into and and discussion. Is it 2/3 one/3? And I think, you know, if it's a scoping and process and how PZC ties in, I could see it taking an hour and a half of the

four hours together. And then maybe we have one other substantial topic that we kind of hope to brainstorm around. One of the other elements of the new boards and commissions guidance is having every border commission adopt their own work plan. Um there was some flexibility around that for this year because lots of the boards and commissions were rebooting. Um, but I think that that's kind of the goal of the retreat is to review staff's work plan, council priorities, and then cultivate our own work plan. I'm not I'm not saying that is the goal of this retreat just in general. I think that's that's sort of the aspiration.

I did just upload that uh summary document that I emailed out. I guess this is right before Christmas. Uh summarizing what you all kind of talked about at that work session back in March when we were thinking about a retreat and and more work. It's in the main folder of the meeting too. Um like the agenda and stuff so you can view it on your on your computers as well. That might help jog some memories because it was almost a year ago. Um, well, I guess since it sounds like chair and staff's kind of taking notes to develop that agenda, I'd suggest maybe if right now each of us could say the top thing, the one thing they would be interested in having there, would that be helpful to you? Yeah.

Um, now I'm sure we all have more than that, but knowing there's a lot of us, I'm going to just say one thing. I think the top thing I would want to talk about if it was an item, and I've brought it up briefly to Will and you, um, is having some kind of data benchmark or standard that this committee looks at in relation to permits or development or just having creating a standard. Um, and it could be really simple, some kind of standard report or metric for how we are tracking development. And it sounds like that's kind of already in play with another group. So, I don't want to double up, but do want to talk about like what we what data point we would want to check and who manages that. That'd be my data tracking. I would call it the thing I want to bring up if I had to pick one thing. That was my one thing. Others have have one one burning thing. community meetings are holding those reports out of it like if we're not getting it. Yeah,

I think I'll just say mine is the sharing a tool. Uh, mine would still be the anti-displacement strategies.

I think mine might be three-fold. Um, I just scanned through the notes. Uh, but I I didn't see vision zero mentioned and that would be uh

vision zero. Um, and then the I would double down on the missing middle housing. Uh, and then I think kind of like a 2.5 point on that one would be like what meaningful changes could we make to the UDO based on the report? I'm I'm not going to add anything to this to this list. Yeah, I think I I mean this list is going to have to be narrowed down. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I mean we can we'll spend some time bucketing it and it may be that we can touch on some elements and then take deeper dives on others because the I think both um Commissioner Faircloth and Rule are talking about flow of information. So you know what information would be relevant and helpful for this body. You know those you know they're kind of two different sides of that coin. And then um you know, Commissioner Analo, maybe that ties into so we have a roadmap for the big stuff. What's between now and that the adoption of that, you know, and and I I agree with that. I think I'd like to spend time on that. And anti-displacement is certainly a topic within that, you know, that bears some conversation. So, we'll try to keep it focused and tight. I know that's my skill set, right? Is uh tight meetings. Um

well, I wasn't trying to like dictate an agenda right now. I was just trying to give some shape you an idea of what we were burning to talk about. So, no, this is this is really helpful. And um maybe the three of us can put our heads together to refine you, me and Will. Yeah. Anything else before we adjourn for the evening? Commissioner Faircloth wanted us to go to eight. So, yeah. I mean, I actually I actually do have one other thing I want to bring up briefly if we're done with this topic. Anything else retreat work session related before the floor is yours?

Um, yeah, I want to bring it up. I I for an open conversation. Um, I debated saying it earlier, but I will say it now. You know, I I understand regarding like the the Costco project and them being asked to continue it. I I I understand the one continuence and I know they are actively making changes and it doesn't happen super often, but it has happened a few times with like the um the group off the ramble Deerfield

um and one or two others where like stuff gets continued last minute and I I get that happens. I just do want to voice, you know, it is frustrating to all of us, the staff, to us, the public who shows up, you know, to us who I think multiple of us have been out to the site and spent time on this. I know y'all spent hours on it, but um I know we can't like remove someone's right to ask for continuence. And I know that's like that's not something I necessarily want to do. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud like you I know right now work there's not a lot of projects on the board but I for Deerfield I was especially frustrated because like other projects lost their place in line that night because they had booked that spot and you know maybe that's not the instance this time go around but um I wish there was something that could be done um and I don't want to be like petty or punitive or anything. So, that's not the goal here. Um, but it's like, you know, if you're going to move to continue it, do you automatically still go to first in line next month or do you get pushed to like the back of the line of projects waiting to be heard? Um, because there's only so many things that can be heard a meeting and I don't know if that's the route I want to go down. I'm just thinking out loud and wanted to voice some frustration. Um,

yeah, I I share that. I I agree. I think the process has been tough and um given that we only meet once a month, council meets infrequently, I think developers try to line up the pathway to approval and um it it gums up the works to invest a lot of time and energy and effort and then not hear a project. Um we're a volunteer board and most of us spent significant time reviewing the Costco proposal. That's still relevant, but we're going to have to refresh ourselves next time.

Well, my frustration is, is it relevant? What if what if the new proposal next month is like significantly different and I'm redoing all my homework and and then that's a me problem, not a world problem. But no, it's I felt like saying something because there was public who showed up. Um, you know, and it's frustrating to them. Um, yeah, it was visible to them. You know, if this continues to happen, and this is not an attack on staff or anyone, but like I might start to change my tune and feel like if it is continued last minute, still like opening up for public comment if they came here, like, you know, give them the right to still say something even if it's a changing target. I

my opinion on not doing public comment on that might change and I might start to be a little more squeaky about it. Mhm. And as a reminder, we also we have to vote to continue. So that was on the Deerfield. We did not have to Yeah. And I stand by my vote to continue it tonight. I'm not backing down. I had time to kind of formulate my thoughts a little better and wanted to say something.

It does feel like a request to continue. Um we are backed into the corner a little bit. we you know and I hear you and I feel like when appropriate we may not grant that continuence or we may yeah hear public comment which is that's hard because you know we kind of have to hear presentations we could go we could open the public hearing and then continue the public hearing but I'd have to chat procedurally with staff on how to how to do that. Um,

and I I will follow up saying that if there is anyone still listening on the cameras, microphones, um, you know, myself and I know the other board members do read all the emailed public comments and we do take notes and usually during that presentation, the chair or someone will kind of go through some of the key points of those. So, those are still heard. It's not like we didn't listen to any public comment on the project tonight. It was just read beforehand over email. Yeah, thank you for that. That Yeah, it is. if anyone's out there still listening. We read your emails. Okay. Well, thank you for still watching.

Well, heard any anything else for the good of the order or I will had a final sorry. Well, I based on or I was giving my items for the retreat. I just wanted to give like one more additional item. Sure. If that's okay. Uh would like to discuss short-term rentals and how that might pertain to the UDO specifically. Thank you. Well, I will entertain a motion to adjurnn. I'll make a motion to adjurnn. You can just without Yeah.