City Council - Regular Meeting

All right, good evening everybody we are live Thank you all for being here tonight at the Asheville City Council meeting if you could take a moment to silence your cell phones and And if you didn't already have an opportunity to do so, you can always step out into the hall and sign up to speak at any point during the meeting, and it will show up on our screens once we have it up. If you would please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. individual with liberty and justice for all.

Hey, Maggie, I'm missing my...

Wait, not at the agenda. Well, I'm missing the decorum statement that's usually sitting here.

I don't know what happened to it. Somebody took it.

Okay.

We'll forego the reading of the decorum statement. All right, tonight we do not have any proclamations on our agenda. We have a consent agenda, and we have one item that we need to allow for a recusal. So can I have a motion to recuse the vice mayor from item E on the consent agenda? So moved. Second. All right. We have a motion and a second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed?

I apologize. I didn't get who made that motion. Thank you.

I don't know if our mics are on.

Mics may not be on. Mic, mic. Yeah, they're not on.

Just one second. Oh, there they are. Thanks, Logan. There we go. Logan, we need you.

Logan got it. Logan got it. Thank you, Logan. Okay, so you are recused from item E. Are you gonna stay? Yeah, we'll do that and then come back and we'll do the rest of the consent agenda. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, that's important. All those in favor, please say aye. I think we did. Aye. Any opposed? I did, but not on the mic, so that was a unanimous vote to recuse you. All right, do I have a motion to adopt item E on the consent agenda?

So moved.

Second. All right, I have a motion and a second. All right, we do not have anyone signed up to speak under the consent agenda. However, I would like to highlight item E, which I'll just read it. It's a resolution authorizing the city manager to enter into a contract with City Collective LLC to develop a master plan for land in the Deaverview neighborhood owned by the City of Asheville and the Housing Authority of the City of Asheville. And just to expand a little bit on this project for several years, it has been in the making that the Housing Authority would redevelop the Deaverview neighborhood and in fact, the idea initially was that we would do this in partnership with land that the city owns adjacent to this property. And then, for various reasons, the Housing Authority proceeded on their own. This was all prior to Helene and prior to two executive directors ago. But they have backed off of their plan to do this alone and reengaged with the city. to do this as a partnership, which is really exciting because it allows us to create a lot of affordable housing with a mixed income neighborhood, and then also adding into it elements needed for a successful neighborhood. So you'll see in this concept there includes an education component, and the idea is to create an affordable neighborhood that also has the amenities that families and individuals need to be able to be happy and successful in their neighborhood. So this is going to be a long process. I'm not saying this will happen overnight, but it's pretty exciting. Both parties already have the land and I'm looking forward to this. And I think that continuing to grow affordable housing in Asheville remains one of our top focus areas. It continues to be one of our number one challenges. And I will say it's really important for the city council and the city not to get in the way of growing affordable housing, but to make sure that we help support it. And for that matter, housing in general. So this is exciting. All right. We don't have anyone signed up to speak under this item. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right. Passes. All right. All right, do I have a motion to adopt the remainder of the consent agenda?

So moved. Second.

Okay, Maggie, Councilwoman Roney made the motion and Councilwoman Turner seconded that motion. Again, we don't have anyone signed up to speak under this item.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye. Any opposed? All right. Okay, we have one presentation tonight and that is going to be under the manager's report and I'm going to turn it over to our city manager, DK Wesley.

Thank you, Mayor. One item from Walter Ear, our Capital and Management Asset Management Director. He's going to provide you with the quarterly update on our capital projects.

Thank you, Mayor, Manager, City Council, and staff. My name is Walter Ear. I'm the Director of the Capital and Asset Management Department. I'm here to give an update on the capital program as a report on the fourth quarter of last fiscal year. So as we do, we like to celebrate some completed projects. Stuff that's in the books, it's done. These are nine projects fully done last year, total value of almost $46 million. It's just great to thank our staff, and whether it's the project staff, partner departments, local contractors that help contribute to these assets, they're now in the books for our community to use and enjoy. We have one project that has started in the design phase, that is the Eagle and Market Street enhancements project. The city has contributed, along with some grant funding, $2.2 million in GeoBond, CIP, Enterprise Fund, and again, that grant funding to make improvements along Market Street to connect downtown to the block. So, from Eagle Market Street, roughly where Fire Station 1 is, connects down the north side of Eagle Street, will be part of that project, and it's part of the base scope. The city has applied for some additional funding in the form of a grant, and we can go through. So, in the red here, you'll see this is the base scope along here, and then if we are able to get that grant, the yellow items in yellow will be part of that. We've done an extensive public engagement, and we look forward to getting that project underway with or without the grant. But we hope to increase the scope with that grant if we're able to get it. So we'll do a deep dive on a couple projects, the parking garages, and as an update on the Biltmore Village public realm project. It's a lot of information on this slide. This is mostly for people playing the home game. If you want to understand some details, we'll go through it in subsequent slides. But in 2023, we provided an update to the city council on just the need for this, and I'll just dive into it now. So I'm an engineer, so I just want to dive into these fun things that I think are very interesting that I hope people are learning from. In the decade prior to the 23 assessment, we hadn't done a lot of investment. We were due for one. We had done some studies, but we needed help to prioritize those. So in 2023, we did a comprehensive assessment, stacked all of those assessments together with all of the decks. It's complicated. We know that we need to keep decks open and parking available. And council passed or we presented the need for these projects and then have been doing projects since. This is the breakdown of those projects, $11.3 million in total project need, immediate space and enhancement repairs and improvements. And just if anybody is wondering, it is the most cost effective thing to restore and maintain our existing assets. It should go without saying, but we just needed the math to kind of back that up. So it costs twice as much, roughly, to demolish, build new, and maintain a structure of the same size. So it's cost effective to continue to maintain these existing structures. What are we doing, or what have we done since the 2023 study? The Rankin and Wall Street garages, we have spent $3.2 million on doing the immediate repairs, structural things, concrete, corbels, steel. We're preventative maintenance, so water and oxidation are the enemy of steel and metal, so we're trying to prevent water intrusion from getting to those elements. And then ADA improvements, we're bringing these decks up to today's standards as much as possible within the constraints of existing conditions. Here's a couple before and after pictures. It's just important to see the difference. So steel sections that needed to be repaired or replaced, steel that holds up girders or other components, and then egress needing to be repaired. And then this is examples of waterproofing. So again, water intrusion, having joints replaced, having waterproofing. This is traffic coating that gets placed on the decks to prevent water. We want the water to go where we want it to go, not for it to intrude on places where it's not designed to go. All right, what's coming up in the future? So we've got additional repairs being done and improvements being done to the Harris Cherokee Center and Biltmore garages. Similar types of repairs, structural egress and ADA. As well, we have a couple of improvements, aesthetics, wayfinding, et cetera, on the Rankin and Wall Street garages. All of that to say, what does it mean to people who need to park downtown? So we will phase those closures that do need to happen so that work can happen at the Harrah's and Biltmore decks. The Rankin and Wall Street garages will maintain, they'll be open the whole time with localized closures and we expect council will see a contract coming in for construction at the end of the year and we expect to execute that project through 27. So as far as business mitigation goes, We're aware, so again, sequenced work. We're gonna avoid peak season, just like we did last time. And we're working with the Parking Services Division to ensure that pass holders are made aware and that we're working with folks to ensure that they can get parking. So as an update to the Billmore Village Public Realm Project. As a reminder, we received funding in the form of grants for this project as a recovery project. Key priorities, it is historic preservation, infrastructure replacement, accessibility enhancement, and it is, we heard the Biltmore Village Association, Biltmore Village merchants that getting this area back up and running and restoring would provide a strategic impact for those local businesses, so it's economic support. I forgot to mention that, so the total project identified a need of $4.8 million. That's all the things that are highlighted in either the yellow or the red. We recognize that there are additional sidewalks that folks were interested in having done, but those are DOT roads, and so we're trying to stay on our side so that we can expedite the repairs. Again, that was a priority of the community and we are seeking additional funds to do so. There's $2.5 million in grant funding. The areas shown in red are what are covered by that funding. And then there's some areas in yellow here and the circle here which could receive additional treatments if we get that additional grant funds.

Can you help me with one of the legs of this? Sure. The one to the left, is that Boston Way?

This one right here? Yes. I believe this continues to be Boston Way.

Okay, so one of the concerns I heard today, again, Technically, I guess this is a DOT issue, was the crosswalk, and that we've had conversations about putting a pedestrian-activated signal there at Boston Way, because there's a high traffic intersection.

This right here, Boston Way over Hendersonville Road?

Yes. But there were issues with the right-of-way access and easement. and ADA accessibility, but it's because it's currently on the side of Boston Way that it is. So the question was, if we move it to the side that has had the most recent ADA accessibility upgrades, does that solve the problem? I know we don't have an answer for that right now, but I just... We can follow up. I think that would be a good follow up. The second one is the community concerns around why is lighting phased later? when lighting seems to be a higher priority?

So lighting is a FEMA. None of this is FEMA. This is all small business infrastructure grant funding. It's a FEMA project, so we have to go through the process of claiming that, negotiating on scope and on the cost estimate for that, and then the federal procurement process. So it is a longer timeline.

So it's a matter of timing with the funding.

It is the timing with the funding.

Do you, this is for the historic lights, the historic lights.

That as well is, so federal procurement and there being only one source for those lights, literally one source.

Because I was down there this weekend in the evening and I noticed there's temporary lighting. It's not historic by any means, but it's lighting.

Good questions. Thank you. So again, expediting this process, it may not feel like it, but for us, we are moving as fast as possible within our processes to ensure that we can bring this project to the community. So we were awarded the grant about this time last year. We've kicked off design. We did a public engagement, which is this picture here. And we provided an update to the Infrastructure Recovery Board last month. We expect later this month to hear back about the grant and then we'll go to the Historic Resources Commission to ensure that it meets the requirements for certificate of appropriateness. And then expect to complete design at the end of the year with construction starting late 26 all the way into 28. Again, just a couple more priorities, just a reiteration of what I've said already. Rapid infrastructure recovery so that we can be ahead of businesses reopening to ensure that we are just investing in this space and helping to bolster the economic viability of the village. Historic appropriateness and then tree canopy were both concerns that we heard in the public engagement and we're continuing to work on incorporating those into the design all the while ensuring that we maintain our priorities of staying within the grant guidelines, budget timeline, et cetera. So next steps, we're gonna incorporate those design features when we hear back now, and then submit those to the HRC, get our certificate of appropriateness, and then council should see a contract coming in front of you later this year. And a couple of just quick milestones. We expect the harp from the Broadway Public Safety Station art project. In the bottom right, you can see this is the original concept design from many years ago. And this is the base, as it were, part of it currently installed, you can see now on the Greenway. Expect that to be done by the end of this month, hopefully, end of summer. And the Greenway Connectors project, end of this month as well. Malvern Hills Park is moving along. It's at 90% design. We expect to see a construction start by the end of the year for that one. Lexington Avenue and Oakley Fire Station are also moving along. And the riverfront recovery projects with which council has seen updates on those, unified concepts for those, we'll be doing public engagement later this fall for those. So look for those. If you're not already subscribed to those project pages, please do and you'll get an update for when those engagements will happen. And then lastly, Council on this agenda approved the grant application for the transit garage. So for anybody who wants an update or just a reminder on the why and what we're doing and when we're doing it, there are two links provided here at the bottom just to give folks the presentation we provided in December of last year as well as links to the slides. And this is the potential layout that may go onto the HARP. Any questions from council?

I really appreciate the way your department's really been evolving over the years of just giving us really effective information at where we are in percent design, where we are in percent completion, seeing the huge portfolio of projects and all the moving pieces. I think it's really easy for the public to hear we passed a bond and then not see something they can touch or play with or go for a walk on for a while. And so I think that your ability to communicate where we are in stages and tracking it's really helpful. I know we have the dashboard online, which is excellent, and I show a lot of neighbors that when they're asking. But I think I just appreciate seeing it. It helps me understand.

Thanks for that feedback. We do it as a team, and we're always trying to get better. So thank you.

Alright, thank you. That concludes the manager's report. Tonight we don't have any public hearings, we don't have any unfinished business, and we have one item of new business, that is an ordinance amending Chapter 4 of the Code of Ordinances of the City of Asheville by adding a new Section 4-209C in order to provide additional protections for tenants from unsafe dwelling conditions. And there is attached to the agenda the amendment to the existing ordinance. This is an ordinance that regards life safety slash unsafe conditions. And in this, there is a list of conditions that are considered life safety or unsafe conditions. And this proposal would add a new paragraph C that says, it shall be unlawful for the owner of a dwelling to collect rent from a tenant who occupies the dwelling at the time it becomes unfit for human occupancy, unsafe, and represents a threat to life or property, or to permit any other person to begin occupancy of such a dwelling. A dwelling shall be subject to this provision if any of the conditions contained in section 4-209A exist. And that section precedes it and is a list of conditions. Our attorney, who can speak more to this in order to make sure that it's understood this is in line with the existing ordinance, suggest that we add the phrase, comma, at the end, and upon the issuance of an order prepared in accordance with section 4-217B. So what that means is that would be an order from one of our inspectors. So the way this works currently is that we have inspectors already and that if they're asked to perform an inspection on a property and they find that there is a problem in this list of many things that they could find, they will issue, as I understand it, a notice of violation and an opportunity to cure for the landlord to fix the problem. The landlord also has an opportunity to be heard on any notice of violation. This is the due process built into the code. If this goes on and this condition is not remedied, the inspector can issue an order. And then at that point, this ordinance would be triggered, which says that a tenant is not obligated to pay rent if this if we agree to Brad's language, if this order has been entered. And again, Brad can say more about this, but as I understand it, it makes it consistent with the rest of the ordinance. One thing to note though, just FYI, I think everybody here knows that North Carolina legislature preempts cities and counties from largely regulating residential rentals. And so somewhat confusingly, there is a statute that says the tenant may not unilaterally, this is state law, state law, the tenant may not unilaterally withhold rent prior to a judicial determination of a right to do so. So what that means is the state law says that you have to have a court order versus what we're proposing to enact here, which says an order from a city inspector. So I just want to make that clear because we wouldn't want anyone to, well, first of all, we wouldn't want anyone to be confused by the inaction of this ordinance and quit paying their rent when there hadn't been an order entered yet. So we want to be careful about the communication around that. But I do want you to be aware that there is this, you know, there is this challenge between what the state law says and what were contemplating putting it. However, I think... I think it's important that we send a signal that we're not supportive of any landlord that would require the payment of rent for what are essentially uninhabitable rental properties. And this is kind of our only vehicle to do that because the state does preempt us from taking greater action. And we do have inspectors who are able to inspect properties and make determinations of whether or not there are code violations that are present, and they're already doing that, so they can continue to do that, and maybe this will give them a little more teeth. On our agenda here, it only has me as the presenter of this item, but if anyone else would like, I know you had something you were gonna read from somebody possibly, and Brad, if I've misstated anything or you wanna add, please feel free to add, or if anyone has a question.

I don't have a question. This is really in lieu of a public comment from Jen Hampton. She was the person who came forward and she has to be away this evening, so she asked if I'd read this very briefly. So it reads, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to Asheville residents and for taking the housing habitability crisis in our city seriously. I especially want to express gratitude to y'all for hearing the story shared by members of the Asheville Area Tenants Union. You heard directly from renters living in severe mold, unsafe electrical systems, Lack of heat and structural hazards highlights just how urgent this problem is for families in our community. Right now, too many Asheville tenants are forced to pay rent in homes that are unsafe and unfit for human occupancy because they feel like they have to sacrifice dignity for affordability with very little legal leverage to get repairs made quickly. Passing the proposed No Rent for Slumlords ordinance change will create an avenue for tenants to hold negligent property owners accountable and ensure everyone in Asheville has a safe, healthy, and dignified place to live. This ordinance will also function to help preserve naturally occurring affordable housing. We should start shifting our focus to renovating the existing affordable housing that we already have in our community. Please vote yes to support the No Rent for Slumlords Ordinance. Thank you again for hearing. Ashville tenants and for your commitment to protecting Ashville renters. Sincerely, Jen Hampton, Ashville resident and staff organizer for the Ashville Area Tenants Union.

We do have a number of people signed up to speak under this item, so we can go ahead and proceed with that. All right, folks, you'll have three minutes to speak. Please watch the lights on the lectern. Green means go, orange means getting ready to stop, and red means stop. Our first speaker is Nina Tovish.

Mayor.

Motion. I'm sorry. That's right. We're not on a public hearing. Do we have a motion to? Second. Okay. We have a motion and a second. Second. Okay. Maggie made the motion. Sorry. Second. Thank you. Okay. We got it now. Thank you. All right. Please.

Good evening, council members. I, of course, am urging you to vote yes on this change. But I would wonder whether you, I believe the mayor mentioned something about mold as one of the hazardous things that people have encountered. And of course, that's come more and more to our attention post-Hilleen, where a lot of people were in buildings that were damaged by floodwaters or by rain incursions. And subsequently, those dwellings developed serious mold issues. My understanding is that 209A does not list mold explicitly as one of the things that can cause a problem for habitability, safety, and so forth. And while you're in the process of fixing this particular ordinance, maybe someone would like to make an amendment to add mold as officially one of those things that can render a dwelling unsafe, uninhabitable. and a danger to health and well-being. Just a suggestion. Thank you for moving forward on this.

Thank you. Matt Allen.

Good evening. Hi, I'm Matt Allen, Director of Governmental Affairs for the Realtor Association. And I'm here tonight not to oppose the proposed ordinance. I'm here to oppose the timing and the process leading up to your consideration. We agree with the overall spirit and intent of this proposal, which is why it's unfortunate that things have transpired the way they have. This could have been an opportunity, and we still hope it can be an opportunity, for responsible rental owners, property managers, and tenant advocate groups to come together and craft something that holds bad actors accountable while also ensuring the unintended and potentially negative consequences for owners and tenants alike are considered and addressed. Instead, if council passes this ordinance tonight, we'll be left with questions and uncertainty because all interested parties and stakeholders weren't involved, leaving there to be several outstanding questions remaining. For reasons that aren't quite clear, this entire process has been fast-tracked, including the last-minute cancellation of the committee meeting where this ordinance was set to be discussed before coming before council. That would have been an excellent opportunity for rental owners and property managers to outline concerns, pose questions, and allow discussion before coming before council. The irony here is that many of these unanswered questions and possible unintended consequences mainly pertain to and could negatively impact tenants. For example, one could easily envision a scenario where a tenant misunderstands or misinterprets the proposed change, withholds rent in circumstances where they cannot, and thereby violates state law on this topic. Our ask is simple and I believe very reasonable. Pause consideration of this so we can be intentional in addressing any outstanding questions and concerns. We all want the same thing, to hold true slumlords accountable. Let's make sure responsible owners, property managers, and tenants are not negatively impacted because of an unnecessary rush to push this through. Thank you for your consideration and time.

Okay, we have the next speaker, Al Sottorelli, has several people yielding their time to him. If you are one of those people, please raise your hand when I call your name. Kyle Moss, okay, and Corrine Kelly, and Linda Baker. Okay, you'll have 10 minutes, up to 10 minutes.

Thanks, hopefully I don't need that. My name is Al Sardarelli. I'm a local property manager. I also am a realtor and a member of the National Association of Residential Property Managers. And I lead a local mastermind group with about 25 other property managers here in town, all members of different companies representing around 7,000 doors in Western North Carolina and around 3,000 doors here in Asheville and surrounding areas. So some of the things I'm gonna talk about tonight have been discussed between all of us. Some of those people are in the room in support of us as well. And the first thing I want to say is that we are in support of this ordinance. Tenants should not be forced to live in dangerous or genuinely uninhabitable conditions. And landlords who know the serious health and safety problems exist and refuse to correct them should absolutely be held accountable. My concern is that as currently written, the ordinance does not adequately distinguish between that landlord and a responsible property owner who experiences a legitimate maintenance emergency and immediately goes to work trying to stop it. I believe we can protect tenants from bad landlords without inadvertently punishing good ones. And so there are about three areas I would ask council to consider some additional language if we're changing the ordinance and making it criminal to accept rent. The first would be a notice and an opportunity to cure. A landlord cannot repair a condition that they don't know exists. If a heating system fails in January, that's certainly serious, but heating systems do fail. And the important distinction should be what happens next. Did the tenant notify the landlord? Did the landlord immediately contact an HVAC company? Did they provide temporary heat when appropriate? Are they actively trying to get the system repaired? If a necessary part takes three days to arrive, that landlord should not be treated the same as a landlord who ignores a tenant without heat for three weeks. The same applies to something as serious as raw sewage. The language understandably creates an image of horrible living conditions being ignored by a slumlord. But consider a regular home on a septic system. Septic systems fail. The owner should be absolutely required to respond immediately and mitigate the problem. But if the owner calls a septic contractor, is diligently working towards a repair, the existence of the problem alone should not make that landlord's collection of rent an unlawful act. Second, I would ask that the standards in this ordinance be objective whenever possible. Terms such as inadequate hot water or inadequate heating needs clear, measurable definitions. If we're going to attach serious consequences to failing a standard, landlords, tenants, property managers, and code enforcement officers should all know exactly where the goalposts are. Several, well, third, the ordinance needs to recognize who caused the conditions. Several of the conditions on this list can actually be created by an occupant. A tenant can disconnect a smoke detector. They can block an exit with belongings. They can improperly store gasoline inside the home. They can begin occupying a below-grade area that was never intended for or approved as living space. pretty normal, unfortunately. If a tenant should not be able to create an unsafe condition and then use that same condition to make the landlord's collection of rent unlawful. So my request to council is fairly simple. Keep the ordinance, keep the protections, just add some guardrails. Require notice to a landlord or actual knowledge of the conditions. Give a reasonable landlord a reasonable amount of time based on the severity of the problem to correct it. protect a landlord who has responded promptly and is diligently working towards a repair when contractor availability, parts, permits, and other circumstances are outside their control, and use objective standards wherever possible, distinguishing between conditions caused by a landlord's failure to maintain the property and conditions created by the tenants or occupant. I would also encourage Council to clarify what happens when a property is actually declared unfit for human occupancy. whether the tenant must vacate, what happens to the lease when repairs are underway, and when the obligation to pay rent resumes once the property is repaired and the lease is still enforceable. If we're going to create an ordinance that a tenant can use in a really bad situation, I think it needs to be very easy to read, easy to understand for all parties. I believe that these changes don't weaken the ordinance. They make it stronger. They allow the city to aggressively pursue the landlords this ordinance is intended to address while giving reasonable property owners a clear path to do exactly what we want them to do, respond with quickly, protect their tenants, and correct the problem. I think the goal should be to provide a strong ordinance that tenants can use as a shield against genuinely unsafe housing, not one that can be used as a weapon against a reasonable landlord who is doing everything reasonably possible. I support protecting tenants. My group supports protecting tenants. I support holding negligent landlords accountable. I simply ask that we make sure the ordinance clearly distinguishes between negligence and a responsible landlord dealing with an unexpected problem in good faith. In lieu of these changes, I would support Matt's ask to give us some time to work with the tenant union. We've got 25 property managers that represent thousands and thousands of doors that want this to go through, but we want to work with the tenant union to provide clear understanding of what the goalposts are so that we can hold our owners responsible. Thank you.

Thank you.

Bobby Skelton.

All right. I'm pretty sure you all know who I am at this point. I don't think I need to announce my name. First off, I just want to say a couple things. I'm not really glad to be here. I don't like talking to y'all at all. I just want to make sure that y'all know that we're going to keep showing up. We're going to keep an eye on y'all. And we're definitely going to keep an eye on this mass surveillance nonsense that y'all just kind of want to avoid, which includes body cams, any ALPRs, right off the bat. Also, we are not here tonight because people have failed to contact their slumlords. We are here because of persistent, negligent slumlords who have failed the citizens of Asheville for years. We are not here because of reasonable slumlords. This has been ongoing, and it continues to happen, and it's got to stop. I want to let y'all know that we are watching. We are going to keep watching. That's never going to change. And if you're going to have a focus on surveilling people, you need to focus on surveilling slumlords and the crimes that are being committed, not pre-crime and stuff that hasn't even been sought out and you have no idea what's going on. Focus. Keep your eye on the ball because you know what's in front of you. You know crime when it's in front of you. You see it. These things are documented. People have emails, people have videos of things that they have sent their landlords, and these landlords are not doing their job. Citizens are in danger in real time. Real crime. And that's it. Do your jobs.

Austin Powell.

I'm here with the Asheville Area Tenants Union, and I am reading a statement written by a renter in Asheville, a renter and constituent who wishes to remain anonymous. I'm a resident of a Leslie and Associates rental property here in Asheville. For reasons of anonymity and to avoid any potential retaliation, oops. I am choosing to remain anonymous at this time. I am writing to City Council because I received a letter about my upcoming lease renewal explaining that in addition to a small increase in base rent, I would now be charged an extra $50 a month or $600 a year for a benefits package that I cannot opt out of. This package includes a clause explaining that only $150 of maintenance would be provided per year without charge. This was framed as a waived maintenance charge when in fact we are being charged more for less. As previously, routine and no-fault maintenance was provided without charge. The new agreement says that the waiver for maintenance charges does not apply to intentional damage, negligence, or lease violations. All of which are subjective categories that will ultimately fall on the judgment of maintenance technicians to decide. If you will indulge some cynicism, it would be easy for management to write up a resident citing the intentional damage or neglect of their rental property in order to get out of performing basic essential maintenance in compliance with the North Carolina Housing Code. Additionally, some of the benefits in this mandatory package include an office we can call during normal business hours, pest control services, HVAC replacement, and access to an online portal. These are not benefits, these are normal amenities, and things like an office phone number and an online portal are just standard business practices in use everywhere. Pest control is part of the normal upkeep of any residence or business, and HVAC replacement keeps a building habitable, something required to comply with the North Carolina Housing Code. Overall, Leslie and Associates are trying to charge their residents more with a much more stringent limitation on basic support services and expecting us to be thankful for the dubious privilege of paying more for less. This is a worrying sign that the Leslie and Associates company is attempting to get around their responsibilities to provide a safe, livable environment for their tenants. The No Rent for Slumlords ordinance would provide a threshold of accountability to this and other rental companies in our community, assuring that tenants have means of addressing wrongdoing and opportunistic business practices of this kind. Thanks.

Thank you. Robert Price.

Good evening. My name is Robert Price, and I'm a member of the Asheville Area Tenants Union, and I'm here tonight to support the No Rent for Slumlords Ordinance. I want to talk about something that can get lost when we discuss housing. As statistics, a rental property is somebody's home. In many of these properties, it's a multi-generational home. Asheville itself acknowledges that many of the wages earned here don't support the cost of housing. Nearly half of Asheville renters' households are already cost burdened and almost one in five are severely cost burdened. That changes the power relationship between a landlord and a tenant. If you don't have the financial resources to move when your landlord doesn't maintain your home, you have no options. If you're a senior disabled individual living on fixed income or simply one unexpected expense away from financial crisis, just move isn't an option. And that is where intimidation, harassment, and the threat of eviction becomes extraordinarily powerful. You don't have the actual evict somebody to make them afraid. The possibility of losing the one affordable home they can find may be enough to make a tenant tolerable conditions they shouldn't have to tolerate. Look at Evergreen Ridge. It's one of the relatively few places in Asheville where people can find a two-bedroom apartment for under $1,000. It's also a large multi-story affordable housing community. And residents have reported serious problems for years with water damage, mold. Local reporting has documented deteriorating building conditions and tenants struggling to get problems addressed. Now consider what happens when the person experiencing those conditions is a senior or disabled person living on the fourth floor and the elevator is out of service. For someone who can easily walk down four flights of stairs, an elevator being broken is an inconvenience, quite a bit more than that. For someone who uses a wheelchair and an elderly resident who cannot safely navigate four flights of stairs, it can mean being effectively trapped in their own home. That isn't a luxury issue and it's an incredibly dangerous issue. It's an access safety and dignity. And this is why I think this ordinance is about more than rent. It's about restoring some balance to a relationship in which one party owns the building and the other party may have nowhere else to go. The city already tells tenants that they have the right to safe housing. and that retaliation for filing a housing complaint is unlawful by rights on paper aren't enough if exercising those rights puts a person's housing at risk. We also need to recognize that housing stability is connected to public health and public safety. I'm not suggesting that bad housing causes violence or that there is a simple line between landlord And in active violence, there isn't specifically. And we know that housing instability, eviction, and displacement are associated with psychological distress and weakened community stability. And research increasingly connects residential instability with conditions associated with violence. A person who has... Can I finish? I have like one line left. A person who has stable home has something enormously important, a sense that they belong somewhere and have a future there. That matters. So I ask the council not to simply think about this ordinance as a punishment for bad landlords. Think about it as a statement about what Asheville considers a home to be. If you collect rent and should have an obligation to provide a safe space to live, and if a landlord leaves a home. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Rachel Weiss.

Good evening. My name is Rachel Wise, and until a few weeks ago, I was a tenant at Evergreen Ridge Apartments in East Asheville. I lived there for nine years. It's the longest I've ever lived anywhere in my whole life, and it was not by choice. I am a lifelong resident of the city of Asheville, and I'm a member of the Asheville Area Tenants Union. Evergreen Ridge is one of the cheapest apartment complexes in Nashville, and the people who live there, mostly elders on social security, disabled folks on disability, and poor people doing service jobs for less than a living wage, have nowhere else to go. I and my neighbors often had no way to keep our apartments above 65 degrees in the winter. This is a violation of the minimum safe housing code. Many of us also had no air conditioning in the summer. This is a violation of the lease where it is clear that HVAC maintenance is the duty of the landlord. North Carolina law says that buildings over three floors are required to have working elevators. At Evergreen Ridge, there are four elevators for three buildings and as of yesterday, one of them worked. This is a clear violation of the law. These violations lead to situations like this one, which happened a few weeks ago. It was over 90 degrees and humid that day. The elevators in the building were not working. The cooling tower went down again. So the tenants who had had working AC now did not have AC. Which means that my elder and disabled neighbors on the top floors, some of whom are over 90 years old and have lived in these buildings for decades, were trapped, functionally trapped in apartments that were topping 90 degrees. I called every phone number I could think of, and do you know what I was told? By everyone I talked to. The non-emergency line, everyone. When someone has a heat stroke, call 911. This is the state of affairs in Asheville, North Carolina in 2026, where landlords have been allowed to fail to maintain their properties, and in doing so, imperil the lives of their tenants. Does it not matter because we're poor? Because we're disabled? Because we're elders? Because I think that being poor should not be a death sentence in Asheville. I think that poor people, too, have a right to safe housing and dignity in their housing. And I think it is past time for landlords, like those who own Evergreen Ridge, to be reminded that they, too, have legal obligations both to the state and to their tenants, and that there are consequences for choosing to put people's lives and dignity and safety at risk for their own personal profits. Pasna Red for Slumlords. Thank you.

Pryor Ray? Maggie, can we provide the... She's got it. Okay, or we can do that.

Is that okay? Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, hi, thank you for letting me speak. My name is Priya Ray and I live at Maplecrest. I'm a member of the Asheville Area Tenants Union. I'm asking you to vote yes on the no for slumlords ordinance. I feel like my neighbors and I are under attack. Broken elevators, no heat or air conditioning, unsafe living conditions. Our landlord doesn't even take the minimum housing code seriously. And right now, we don't have the power to hold them accountable. I am disabled and I have had to use the disability rights law to fight for my own basic protections in my home. And that has taught me how the law works and when it actually gives people power to enforce their rights. Tenants do not have that power for housing conditions right now. We have to go through a slow code enforcement process while landlords keep collecting rent and no matter how unsafe the unit is. This ordinance will change that. The moment a life safety violation is present, like a broken elevator, extreme heat, or unsafe electrical system, it becomes illegal to collect rent. It gives the tenants the power to hold the landlords accountable ourselves. This is personal for me and a lot of tenants in the city. Passing no rent for slumlords means that every tenant in Asheville finally has the power to hold their landlord accountable to minimum housing code. You were elected to protect the people who live here, so this is what you need to do. So you need to do what you were elected to do. Please vote yes on this ordinance. Thank you. Thank you.

Andrew Paul.

Everyone i'm Andy I am a lead organizer with Asheville for all and I support this ordinance for 22 years of my adult life, I was a renter I rented in Boston in Austin in minneapolis in Los Angeles and in Asheville. And I do think North Carolina is one of the hardest places to be a renter. In all the cities I lived, I had my share of pests. I had cockroaches, fire ants. One apartment I lived in, the ceiling caved in on my bathroom from the floor above, and I couldn't use my bathroom. And in two different cities, I experienced one of the things on that unsafe items list, which was not having hot water. And I can tell you in the middle of the winter, not having hot water for weeks at a time. This was once in Boston, once in Minneapolis. Not having hot water is a real pain in the butt. And you end up having to spend more in public transit. I had to get a membership at the Y so I could shower at the Y. And I was thinking about how I felt when that was going on. Because I think that's important. How does it feel to be a renter? And it can be great to be a renter sometimes. Sometimes, you know, I'm a homeowner. Sometimes I want to be a renter again. There's some freedom involved. But you feel powerless when these things happen. And I'm really glad a couple of other people mentioned that this is about power. When these things go down, you're sort of dumbstruck and you're confused and you need help and you don't know where to turn. So I think just a little something extra, a little something that tenants can have that they didn't have before. I don't know if it's going to fix every problem. is a way to look at this as a power dynamic and as a thing where landlords do need to take some responsibility along with that power. Thanks. Thank you.

Jeff Ponder.

Thank you, you guys. I'll be brief. So I'm a former landlord here in Buncombe County. My buddy Al up here is a realtor. I've been a general contractor since 2009. I definitely hear both sides of this. I think maybe I would like to know a little bit more. Probably wouldn't have been an idea to have a small claims judge down here to see how all of this is going to kind of mesh together, if that makes sense. So I think maybe for me, I would be curious. i don't own any rental properties anymore and i'll tell you what i'm the happiest guy in my room here so i'm glad i'm not there i i do think i agree with a lot of what people are saying if you've got a landlord that's not keeping up with their properties you know what's the reason for that can you move somewhere else and get to a better place can can those repairs be made and if not how do you how do you where do you go like i get all of that um So I think it could be a powerful tool. I think possibly I can see that some of your landlords who don't want to improve their properties might go, okay, I'm just going to check box three and file on you in small claims and kick you out anyway. now you've ticked off your lineup, that kind of thing. I can see how all of that needs to be looked at so that you don't have retaliatory situations, if that makes any sense. Anyway, so those are just my thoughts. Maybe try to connect with your small claims court here and make sure that everybody's on the same page. That's all I have to say.

Thank you. Okay, that is all the folks we have signed up to speak under this item.

If I might add just some appreciation for the renters that organized and came out today. I know a lot of folks are working multiple jobs to make ends meet, and so when you show up, it means a lot. It did make me wonder what the city's role is in the Bowen report, because we look at the numbers, but not the quality of housing in Asheville. So what does it look like for us moving forward when we update the Bowen report to look at the quality of housing? I DID HEAR SOME COMMENTS OF SUPPORT FROM LANDLORDS AND PROPERTY MANAGEMENT, AND I HOPE THAT IS FOLLOWED THROUGH WITH THE FOLKS AT THE ASHFORD AREA TENANTS UNION, WITH NORTH CAROLINA TENANTS UNION. IT DOES SEEM THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY across the state for us to work together because Durham just passed the tenants protections too. And I expect that more cities are going to need to step up. So gaining that experience from the landlords who want to do right by their tenants, I encourage you to follow up and appreciate it. So thank you.

Just brief comments. I echo the appreciation for folks showing up. And the general idea of how do we get this to be clear to the public? How do we mesh with the state and local laws? But I want to add a different layer of just appreciation in that we've been talking a lot about apartment complexes and building new apartments. I think even the media that's here tonight has been reporting on it. We talk and focus a lot about that so you see a lot of it. I am thrilled to be talking about things that actually help the local renters, local people living here now. I wish that we would be talking about more about housing, about eviction protections funding. I wish we'd be talking about working with the tenants union. I wish we'd be talking about schooling between landlords and tenants. I'd love for us to be talking about individual housing, access to housing, down payment assistance, anything we can do that's more than just building apartments. So I'm thrilled to be talking about how this impacts locals today. Let's talk about it more. I'm happy to move forward with it. I do think there's some language that could help, and maybe it comes by way of amendments. We tried to refer to some of the other pieces of the ordinance, and I heard the call for more clarity on the cure and what that process looks like. And I think at the end of the day, the overall goal from all of this is the same, that we keep people housed and we keep people safely housed. And I think that's a wonderful thing to be focusing on.

I did want to, there was one comment about the opportunity to cure that was mentioned. The existing ordinance and what this refers to does say the following regarding the process. So once the inspection is completed and there is a notice of violation, There is also then, after this notice is provided, there's an opportunity to be heard. And it says, if after such notice and hearing, the housing code coordinator slash designee, okay, inspector, determines that the dwelling under consideration is unsafe or unfit for human habitation, according to the standards of this code, he or she shall state in writing their findings of fact in support of that determination and shall issue and cause to be served upon the owner thereof an order. All orders issued by the housing code coordinator may be filed in the notice of its pendants. Does this supposed to mean Liz Pendence? I think there's a typo in here. In the Office of the Clerk of Superior Court of Buncombe County. So in other words, there is a process where the inspection happens, there's a notice of violation, and then assuming there's some period of time to correct it, but also an opportunity to be heard, And then after all of that, you would get to the part where an order would be issued. So it does build in, already in our code, a due process piece to this. But I think the request to delay this because we need more time to suss out the exact language and or we need time to communicate to the public, I think is one of concern. I think this proposal bypassed a subcommittee or was it supposed to be heard in HCD or did it get heard in HCD?

It was scheduled to be and then wasn't heard. And then wasn't heard.

Well, you know, I guess the question is, is there, is council satisfied with the wording of the ordinance? And again, what's attached to the agenda, Brad has asked that we add this additional phrase And I can pass this. I don't know if anyone's looked at this.

Mayor, I've emailed to all the council what that language is. Include it in a motion if you wanted to make it.

It just makes it clear that there has to be an order.

I do have one question for legal.

So my only concern, so there's that, whether or not we want to need to change this language any further. The other is that one of the commenters said that this would allow someone to stop paying rent. And that is true, except that there has to be this due process and there has to be an order entered. And that is an order, as I said at the beginning of this, that is an order entered by one of our inspectors. And again, state law still says the tenant may not unilaterally withhold rent prior to judicial determination of a right to do so. So I do want to make clear, I don't want people who are tenants to begin withholding rent thinking that this action tonight, if we were to approve this, would immediately enable them to do that. So just to be clear.

My question was for Brad for legal. I'm just curious, as someone that's very concerned about mold in general, if mold is an allowable addition or if there's some legal issue that it would not be.

Yeah, thank you for the question, Councilmember Turner. That particular aspect was brought up early on in this process when the request came into the city. We discussed that internally with our Development Services Division, which is where our building inspectors are housed. The issue that we have is currently there is no recognized national standard, either at the federal level or the state level, for a safe and unsafe level of mold. which means that as we at the local level will try to enforce that, we have no standard to point to to say how much is too much. We all recognize that mold certainly is an issue, but until such time as there is actually an established legal standard for a safe and unsafe amount of mold, it becomes incredibly difficult for our code inspectors and building inspectors to actually review and manage that. Everything else that they do is defined specifically by the state building code. This is not included in the building code to that nuance simply because, again, there is no standard for a safe amount of mold. So we have nothing to judge that by.

May I respond to that just to push a little, make sure I understand? So generally, I tend to think, you know, to make a change at a state level, a lot of cities have to share a problem and get loud about it. You know, it's just kind of a general overall statement. What would be the impact of us adding mold to this? If there's no harm, does it introduce a topic? Does it create a situation where we could build some momentum around mold? Is there anything we could do?

The biggest issue that I would perceive is we are adding this provision to essentially what is our local memorialization of the building code. And the building code, as you know, is set at the state level. It is something that we have almost no flexibility over. We can't remove things. We can't add things. So we are essentially limited to what the state defines as its building code and applying that locally. So this essentially in the list of unhabitable things would be an addition that is not recognized under the state building code. And again, there would be no standard for us to set it as any other part of our code as a private nuisance. So it's very, very tricky. But to add it to this provision, it would require us really to edit the state building code, which isn't an allowance we have.

To me, that translates to some more grassroot effort for a while, which I'm interested in. But we won't be able to address tonight, probably.

Yeah, Brad and I have gone round and round about the mold. We actually brought it to public safety when we were doing the abandoned building ordinance, and we had a whole discussion about that because that was interesting. Actually, not that I don't believe our legal and our staff, but I did some research, and I could not find one city or one state that had a mold ordinance. And there was different reasons why behind that. But I do have a question. about this process piece, because, you know, someone's living without hot water or in unsafe conditions. I don't want this to drag on and we have these inspections and then they have to have a hearing and then we go to court and it's, you know, two months later. So is there something that we can add to the wording of the bill that if one of these complaints comes into the city, the city has to go out within 24 hours or 48 hours or six hours and inspect to make sure that what the complaint it says is accurate so that we can start that due process. What does my colleagues feel about that and then what would that take to add that?

To add on to that, I feel like if we could get to a place where there was more specificity about

when a city inspector would have to address it and then also when the landlord would have to address it that would just give clarity to everybody so all these questions are kind of making me a little bit worried about making this decision tonight and that is because in our existing code let me just read this to you it says um that when a complaint comes in um and it is determined that any dwelling is unfit for human habitation for one of these reasons. The code enforcement officer shall, and this is like old existing language, if their preliminary investigation discloses a basis for such charges, issue and cause to be served upon the owner of and parties in interest, in such dwelling, a complaint. The complaint shall list the violations of this code and contain a notice that a hearing will be held before the housing code coordinator at a place within the city at a fixed time not less than 10 days nor more than 30 days after the serving of said complaint. And then it offers the opportunity to file an answer, give testimony, and it says the rules of evidence apply. So on and so forth. I mean, it's a standard due process.

Was that in the staff report?

No. It was in the ordinance. This is in the current ordinance.

I guess before we get to that point, what's the time frame that the complaint's filed before we get someone on the ground there?

Well, this is the... It's our current code.

Yeah, just to respond specifically to Council Member Hess's question, I think this is important. In the section of the ordinance that's proposed for amendment, which we are essentially adding a subsection C about rent, just above that in subsection B that deals just with these unhabitable situations, it actually already states that code enforcement officers shall give priority enforcement to any dwelling that falls within these provisions. So what that means is these are the priority. It doesn't list a specific time because that would have to be influenced by capacity and a lot of other things. That's not something we came prepared to say a specific day. We would really have to work with our staff to figure that out. But it is already inherent in this particular section that they are supposed to, our code enforcement officers, make these the priority in terms of reviewing these.

So is there already a motion and a second?

Yeah, we already have a motion and a second. So let me make clear that the motion and the second is to adopt this version that Brad sent us.

If anybody would like to see exactly, I've emailed council what that additional language is.

So I could make a friendly amendment to include and upon the issuance of an order prepared in accordance with section 4-217B.

Well, I don't know that we need an amendment as long as the initial motion was to. I think that was the initial motion. Or was it?

I don't know.

No, because someone said I'm so moved or something. Right.

I was the second. Yeah.

So we have a motion and a second. I just wanted to clarify that we have a motion and a second to adopt the language as sent to you in the email.

Yes. Yes. Okay. But it's missing.

This is the one from Brad. So it reads, it shall be unlawful for the owner of a dwelling to collect rent from a tenant who occupies the dwelling at the time it becomes unfit for human occupancy, unsafe, and represents a threat to life or property or to permit any other person to begin occupancy of such a dwelling. A dwelling shall be subject to this provision if any of the conditions contained in section 4-209A exist and upon the issuance of an order prepared in accordance with section 4-217B. That is the motion to adopt that. one other item not to make this confusing there is um we it this becomes effective when it becomes law meaning as soon as we pass this it will be the law um sometimes we have delayed the effect of a change so that the staff has time to communicate the change if there's any that is an option i'm not i'm not stuck on it i'm just suggesting it sometimes we hear it twice too Uh, we, here, you mean vote on it twice? Only if it has a criminal penalty. Oh, I don't think, do we need to vote on this again?

Yeah, uh, Council, this, this type of ordinance does not require multiple votes. You are able to pass it, uh, tonight. I will say, though, because this is an ordinance, it does require a supermajority to pass it on the initial reading, which means if it got four votes, you would then have to have a second reading, but only if it failed to gain supermajority on the first vote.

I'm very supportive of us taking these steps. Also, a lot of the public comment was probably hard to say out loud. And I think people are doing the best they can. And it is hard to live in this town. It is hard to have a job that can afford the rents in this town. And then to not have water, not have heat, That's not acceptable, and that's inhumane. Some of my hesitation, like there's a part of me that wants to take a little more time to research this mold conversation because mold, I mean, if we all raised hands right now, who knows about mold after Helene? This has been really personal for a lot of people, and people have been living with it for a long time. So I don't necessarily say that I'm making an alternate motion. It would have been nice to have heard everyone dig through this in HCD. We have committees, so a lot of detail can be combed through. Questions can be asked back and forth. And we have several weeks, lots of rounds of public comment. So there is a part of me tonight that's like, wow, there's only so much seeing it in a staff report and spending a week plus to dig into it can give me to think it through. Yeah, I think it's unfortunate that it seems like there's not a path for addressing mold in this at this time.

What if we compartmentalized past what we can? I mean, I think the Tenants Union and the community has worked pretty hard to get us here. And then we at HCD potentially take up a conversation about mold and or other items or communications. to the community or just an idea to help us get through tonight.

We could also reach out to other disaster cities and bring forward an amendment if they've come up with some solutions to address mold.

I do want to say that this also includes, let's say your rent was $1,000 a month and you go two months and you do go to court, you will get three times your rent back for those two months. So you'll get $6,000 back. So that's built into this ordinance. And I just want to... make sure we point that out and incentivize our landlords out there to just do the right thing up front. And yeah, I would love to continue the mole conversation.

Let's get some clarity on that. I think that's for the trier of fact ultimately to make that decision.

The compensation part?

And I would always, well, I'm no one's attorney, but keep your rent in escrow.

Very smart. I wasn't clear if that was, can we authorize such a thing?

No. I think what Councilmember Hess is referring to is in situations where a landlord has essentially breached the lease by collecting rent when they would not otherwise be allowed to by law, There are private rights of action that a tenant could bring against that landlord, which under North Carolina law allows for what we call treble damages, which is triple damages. That is not something that is involved in this particular ordinance. That's a private right of action, but it is North Carolina law for the private action and private party to bring.

Okay, so sounds like we want to go ahead tonight, but we might want to look at some other issues further down the line. Good to vote? Good to vote.

Did you have a concern about staff and onboarding it two weeks later or anything? Did you get your need met there?

Well, all this, you know, interestingly, this ordinance is fairly simple. It doesn't actually change the conditions that the inspectors are looking at anyway, currently. It just changes this piece about rent.

So it changes the conditions of...

No, it doesn't.

How the landlord can accept the rent.

Yeah, but it doesn't change the conditions that our inspectors are looking at. So it's not like it would require a trainer. And it doesn't change the process either for the code enforcement.

So no change to the motion, no change from the second. We'll move forward on the vote.

OK. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Thank you. Okay, that concludes the printed agenda for tonight. We do have a number of people signed up under general public comment, so we're going to move into that. Okay.

For those of you that are interested in the follow-up potentially on mold or a conversation that happens at HCD, you could go to the city's website and sign up for email updates for that committee, and then you'll get the agendas for that committee if that's of interest to you.

Okay, all right, so folks that are here for general public comment, again, I'll just reiterate, you'll have three minutes to speak. Please watch the lights on the lectern. Green means go, orange means you're getting ready to stop, and red means stop. And the first person signed up to speak under general public comment is Janice Riordan. I said that right. Yes.

Good evening. My name is Janice Reardon. I'm here tonight because Asheville has an opportunity and a responsibility to become a leader in protecting one of the greatest symbols of Western North Carolina, our black bears. The recent situation involving a mother bear who entered a home on August 18th, followed by a capture and relocation of three of her cubs, should be a wake-up call. When bears become accustomed to human food, unsecured garbage, and other attractants, the consequences ultimately fall on the bear. we can do better. Asheville encourages residents to be bear wise, but education alone is not enough. We need prevention, accountability, before a bear is labeled a problem bear. I'm asking council to consider a comprehensive bear wise Asheville initiative. including mandatory bear-resistant garbage containers in bear-active areas, similar to measures used in communities around Lake Tahoe. We also need bear-resistant public trash receptacles, better signage, education, and very importantly, stronger code enforcement and meaningful fines for repeat violations involving unsecured garbage and other wildlife attractants. And we need to know these requirements are being monitored and enforced. Human behavior should not become a death sentence for a bear. But there is also a tremendous opportunity here. Black bears are part of Asheville's identity and culture, and they could also become a greater part of our economic revitalization. Communities like Gatlinburg and those around Lake Tahoe have embraced the wildlife that makes them special, and Asheville could do the same. I recently attended Hendersonville's Apple Festival. Their downtown was beautiful and thriving with bear sculptures, flowers, public art attracting people to walk, shop, eat, and take photographs. Imagine a beautiful bronze black bear family, a mother and her cubs, in a prominent downtown Asheville location, perhaps as part of a larger Bear Wise public art program. Following the removal of the Vance Monument, we have the opportunity to create a new symbol, one that celebrates Asheville's natural heritage and our future. Visitors would photograph it, families would seek it out, businesses would benefit. That is conservation, tourism, economic development, and community pride working together. Tourism dollars, grants, nonprofits, businesses, and public-private partnerships could be explored for funding. Tonight, I'm asking council to consider a bear-wise Asheville working group focused on mandatory bear-resistant trash receptacles, stronger enforcement, education, funding, and a downtown bear art initiative. Let's make Asheville known not simply as the city where bears live, but as a city that knows how to live with them, protect them, and celebrate them, not just euthanize them. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, Hannah Fergual, Fergual? Fergual.

Good evening, Madam Mayor and Council Members. I'm Hannah Fergual. And I just have a quick question. How many people in this room have seen a bear this week? Keep your hands up.

How many have seen a bear this month?

This season? This year?

Okay.

So we can all agree bears are part of Asheville. And I'm here today because I have been deeply heartbroken over the story unfolding in my own neighborhood in North Asheville. I'm sure everyone's aware of, you know, Janice has been very vocal about it and just shared too, but a bear that we have now named Dolly, which I know has a very polarizing effect on some people, but I couldn't get the idea of pardon Dolly out of my head. And with that unfolded a campaign to approach the governor to really... Consider what our options are. I know this is not your jurisdiction. I know that you are focused on public safety But I do know that Asheville is bear country and I want us to be able to live coexist peacefully and live together And really celebrate all that we come here to enjoy but safely for my four-year-old son and my visiting great aunt and everyone in between Wildlife officials call what Dolly did bad behavior. I'll argue it's bear behavior, and it's unchecked human behavior. It's nuanced, it's complex, and it's a story where we're here time and time again here in Asheville. And it's personal to me, especially now, seeing this bear in my yard every other day. Dolly learned that pet food left by doors and open garages meant an easy meal. It's not a flaw in her character. It's what happens when a hungry, intelligent animal meets a landscape we've reshaped without her in mind. She has never shown unprovoked aggression toward a person. Yes, she has had some interactions with people that have resulted in an assessment of her as aggressive, but when we put it all into the complexity of how we live with our bears, we know black bear behavior, and this bear has been in cornered areas when she has. She has learned that by pushing through doors, she finds food. So these are all habituation, which we call bad behavior and therefore requires a quote unquote humane euthanasia order. For those of us who live over the hill from the trap they set for Dolly, we've heard the cries and screams of her babies as they were trapped. We see these baby bears, we know that they are younger than being represented and we have a lot of fear that they won't survive without their mom. I am going way off script, but I am going to be introducing a resolution that I want to submit to you for the next meeting in two weeks. This is an urgent matter. Dolly is every day hoping, we're hoping she evades a trap so that we have time to organize and contact Governor Stein. We have over 3,000 signatures on two public petitions that we're circulating. This is a really important issue to Asheville residents. Dolly is one bear, but she represents all of the bears and the ways that we coexist with them, and we're asking you... to take a stand and to review this and then go from there. Thank you. Thank you. Nina Tovish.

Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Thomas Sheever.

Madam Mayor and members of the council, thank you for your dedication to Asheville and the opportunity to speak. My name is Thomas Schieber. I live at 10 Greenleaf Circle in Asheville. I'm a mechanical engineer with an MBA. My wife and I have lived here for 29 years, and we still love calling this community home. The city council has many mandates. Hopefully not least among them is the mandate from Asheville citizens. Our county tax department recently received a flood of appeals following the property reappraisal, more than ever before. is what I heard. Obviously, that process freaked out homeowners. Their reaction is understandable. In a time of high consumer prices and stagnant incomes, rocketing home values don't instantly turn into higher tax. But when I heard thousands of taxpayers sent in valuation appeals, I read between the lines just a little. Folks want lower taxes, not higher taxes. Please recognize and accept this as confirmation of mandate from the voters. It really is that simple. Of course, lower tax revenue equates to smaller government. No worries, clearly it can be achieved. Cost cutting will be painful. Program cancellations, redundancies are difficult for everyone involved. We are accustomed to expanding budgets. We will get accustomed to contracting budgets. Do you ever sit alone in a quiet place thinking about your constituents? You know citizens, you know, Asheville citizens represent a broad spectrum. Most citizens expect things from their city council. and many citizens are unencumbered by how the city council can deliver on those things. Surely it is impossible to spend hard-earned tax dollars in a manner that placates everyone, so don't try to placate everyone. Keeping in mind the mounting debt burden, please spend only as critically necessary and only in accordance with your mandates. allows society to step up and naturally manage discretionary items. Thank you for your valuable time this evening.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Paul Howell.

Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor, Council. city attorney, city manager, assistant city managers, and the glue that holds everything together, Maggie. I am here to talk about Asheville Rides Transit because I don't want everybody forgetting about it until it comes back up on the agenda again. Now, recently, Asheville Rides Transit has initiated a policy, I guess, down there where they will not hold the bus a couple of minutes for somebody to make their connection. They might need to be getting on the bus to get to their job. They have also initiated a policy down there where the bus will leave you if you are running beside it trying to knock on it to stop the bus. But they will stop those buses at those lights at both ends of that place down there and let you off the bus. But they will not stop that bus and let you on the bus. I thought that was the doing of this company down there, because I really don't have no love for them. But I found out that this is being done by the orders of the city for them to not wait for people to catch the bus, to not hold the bus. I seen Council Member Smith down there catching the bus, so I'm quite sure she has a little taste of what everybody else does every day. But that shook me up to think that our city leaders would not want their constituents, the people that they work for, to make their connections on the bus. You can have them drivers sit down in them buses for three, five, ten minutes after they're supposed to be done left, and they can sit down there all that time, How come they can't sit there for two to three minutes to wait for somebody to come in on another bus to make their connection and get to work? How come they cannot take some of this money that y'all have given them and improve these bus stops? Instead of removing bus stops from where people need them, why not improve the bus stops where people need them? It is not the people's responsibility or their fault that homeless people are taking over the bus stops and sleeping at them. Still, people got to use them bus stops to catch the bus, and they can't. I don't know what's up with the security. I was down there the other day, and the security guard walked right by somebody drinking beer on the property. I mean, I know there's been a great propensity to waste money, and I'm telling y'all now, keeping this company, this Asperage Transit Company, It's surely wasting money and not benefiting the citizens of this town. We need to do better. Definitely need to do better. That's all I got to say. Thank you.

Thank you. Lauren Holt.

Hi, I'm Lauren, resident of West Asheville. I'm here today on behalf of the bears of Buncombe County, clearly I'm not the only one, and more specifically the bears of Asheville. A couple of weeks ago, in the span of three days, I saw three different bears eating out of trash cans within the city limits. I'm sure if I asked all of you whether you have seen a similar site in recent weeks or months, most if not all of you would raise your hands and we already saw that with the previous speaker. I find it deeply unsettling that the city has not mandated bear resistant or bear proof trash cans for all commercial and residential properties. Many other cities with similar bear populations or even smaller bear populations across Appalachia and across the country have taken this necessary step to protect their bears, and yet we haven't. As a community that prides itself on being environmentally oriented and progressive, As a city that attracts people from all over the country for its nature, our lack of action on this issue is truly an embarrassment and, in my opinion, a crime. We have all heard the expression, a fed bear is a dead bear. This is true for a number of reasons. Not only do bears get euthanized by wildlife authorities most frequently because they become too acclimated to people, a direct result of their being easily fed by our trash cans, But bears are also not meant to be eating human food. They get sick from it. They get poisoned from it. They experience internal blockages from it. It is not melodramatic to say that the city of Asheville, by not mandating bear-resistant trash cans and dumpsters, is causing the needless death of bears every year. We already heard about the six black bears and the cubs who were euthanized in May because they had been breaking into homes. which is undoubtedly something they did because they got used to human food, not because they want to sit on the couch. And our lax trash can laws definitely played a part in that euthanization. Furthermore, bears learn from each other. So the longer we let this go on, the more the local bear population becomes habituated to eating our garbage, the more bear and human conflicts we're likely to have, and the more bears will be euthanized. I think it's high time the City of Asheville takes this issue more seriously, and I strongly believe that most city residents would support this change. Indeed, over 300 applicants are currently on the waitlist for a bear-resistant trash can, and waitlists typically indicate high interest in a service. Of course, we have to go beyond just getting cans for those who request them. We need to mandate bear-resistant cans and dumpsters because protecting bears and protecting the public from bears that are too comfortable with people is a public policy and safety issue. If Roanoke... Okay, come on, I'm done. I was going to list a bunch of cities that have done it, but you get the picture.

Thank you. You can also send that to us as an email. That would be helpful. Thank you. Stacey, loud?

Loud.

Oh, there's no C. Oh, okay.

It has you just with an L, sorry. I'm here this evening to make a public comment on the unhoused population crisis in our city, specifically in West Asheville, where I've been a resident for over 20 years. I want to start off by saying that I fully acknowledge homelessness is a huge systemic problem stemming from the way our society handles or ignores mental health, drug addiction, affordable housing, and resources. But right now, there's such a large population of unhoused people living outside along Haywood Road and in the neighborhoods just off Haywood that it's not safe for them or the residents of the neighborhoods. I spend a lot of time on foot, and this summer my interactions with unhoused folks has increased exponentially, and unfortunately a lot of those encounters have been pretty negative. With the closing of shelters, decreased hours of the day shelters, more enforcement downtown from the bid moving unhoused people along, and the freeway construction that cleared a lot of land where people were camping, it's moved many more people into West Asheville. And in just the past few weeks, the negative interactions have been so prevalent that it felt kind of like a tipping point for me. I'm repeatedly asked for money anytime I'm out walking. Daily, I'm seeing open drug use right on the sidewalks. Someone took a swing at my husband when they were simply passing each other. I was called a cheapskate for not handing over my groceries. And last Friday for the first time, it's only the second time in my life I had to call 911 because one of the men we see regularly was actively attacking another man right in front of the hop in the middle of the afternoon. We're always having conversations with our two teenagers about how not every young house person is unsafe, but some are in the middle of a mental health crisis or drug addiction, and they're unsafe in that moment and what they should do in that scenario. So instead of us feeling good about our kids living, walking in our walkable neighborhood, we worry about them standing at the bus stop on Haywood Road every morning, along with all the other kids who are doing that early in the morning. I've talked to many of my neighbors who feel the same. Things have really reached a boiling point in our neighborhood in West Asheville and some solutions need to be explored and acted on because the situation right now isn't safe for the unhoused folks or the residents and I worry daily that something really bad is gonna happen to somebody. So here are my thoughts and requests. What we're doing is not working. Business as usual is not cutting it right now. We don't want a West Asheville bid as a solution. We want proven solutions that have worked in other communities that have made progress on addressing similar issues. We want you to get the Ramada open now or move those resources into something else that could actually help the problem. And the main thing I'm here to ask for that seems like it would make the most immediate impact is to have the city partner with the county to grow the community paramedic program to meet the capacity of the need, which is enormous, and move funding there immediately. Having trained people responding to unhoused people in crisis and having the ability to do something like get psychiatric meds, medical care, or at least help with de-escalation seems like a way more effective response than sending the ladder truck every time someone calls 911 because they don't know what to do when they see someone in crisis. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you'll consider taking bold and immediate action. Thank you.

Okay. Doug Bowman, and there are several people ceding their time to Mr. Bowman. Chris Pelley, raise your hand. Linda Fornoff. Jonathan Connelly. And Lang Hornthal. Thank you.

Well, good evening. Luckily, I'm going to end the night, I hope, on a positive opportunity here. So I'm Doug Baughman with the Hawk Creek Community Association. I'm here with a number of members of the board. If you'll raise your hands, please. The Clean and Green Committee, and then Lane Hornthal with EcoForesters. And the reason we're here tonight is we want to talk about how to save the trees in Hawk Creek Park. So a little background. The Hawk Creek Community Association has been collaborating with the city on Hawk Creek Park since the 1990s. Hawk Creek Community Association helped get the project going. If you're not familiar with it, it's at the intersection of Avon Road and Beverly Road. It's a very heavily used park. It's right across the street from Hawk Creek Muse. The Creekside Trap House, there's a lot of people that walk their dogs there. There are people who use the pavilion frequently for community events. So it's a very important resource for Haw Creek. So over the last few years, the Haw Creek Community Association's Clean and Green Committee has been working to try to remove what was a complete curtain along Avon Road of kudzu. And we've been doing that for a while and working very closely with people from the Parks and Rec group to take that material that we collect away. But it's gotten to the point where it's just we can't make a dent in it anymore. And we've seen a lot of trees in the park start to die. So we reached out to the folks from Ecoforesters who had been helping us on doing some education with our community on invasive plant management for our Firewise Community Program, which was funded through a Asheville neighborhood grant. And we realized that we really had some good resources available to help us. These guys really know what they're doing. So we asked them to take a very close look at the park forest and help us come up with a solution It's beyond just focusing on Avon Road. And they did a fantastic job. We've got a 45-page report. I think we've got a few extra copies with us, right, that we can share with folks tonight. But what we realize is, if you look at this map on the right-hand side, the problem is massive. The only area that's not severely infested with invasive plants is the area that's mowed in the lower right-hand corner. Everything else is severely infested. And what's happening is the trees are starting to die. It's not just an issue of aesthetics anymore. A lot of the vegetation is impacting the trees. The other thing that we're concerned about is in the northwest corner here is Hawk Creek. And the Hawk Creek Community Association, with local donations, a grant from Connect Buncombe, and a grant from the Buncombe County Open Space Recreation Bond, is going to do a greenway through there. And if we don't begin to attack some of this vegetation, as soon as we finish this project, it's going to get overcome. So we decided we needed to work on a more collaborative plan to get something done here. So what are we talking about? And the collaborative strategy is actually a two-phase effort. First, the initial effort is a pretty intensive program with support from ecoforesters to go in there and really attack the vegetation, especially focusing on the vines that are killing the trees. In this effort, we would need support from parks and rec staff with equipment and maybe some staff to help haul out what we're doing because, as many of you know, it's a significant effort. What Haw Creek would do, the community association, would provide volunteers, facilitate work efforts. And that's a big deal. Most of the volunteers we have are my age. So we need some teenagers or something. The goal is to start in early 2027. And the reason that I'm saying 2027 is that we're going to need some time to coordinate with the staff. It's not something, this is a big enough effort that it's not something that we can do very quickly. And for that matter, the staff is pretty involved in the existing projects on Azalea Road and on the French Broad River Park. So we recognize that and we don't want to slow that process down. The longer term would be EcoForesters continuing to provide technical support. Haw Creek Community Association would facilitate regular volunteer efforts because what EcoForesters has told us is that this is a multi-year effort. We're going to hit it hard, but then we're going to have to continue to hit it in order to maintain the trees. And all we're really asking from the city staff is to provide removal of materials and periodic review and support from their staff. So why am I taking up your time tonight, right? Well, the reason is that we need your support to go to the staff and make something happen. We've been working with the staff, and they've been very helpful, but this is taking things to a completely different level. Working along Avon Road and pulling kudzu crowns is one thing. What we're talking about here is six acres of invasive plants that need to be removed. So we really want you to just help facilitate your staff working with us to take on this larger effort. The only funding support we're asking for is to support the staff. Everything else is going to be covered. EcoForesters is providing their staff and resources at no cost to the city. That's really significant, and I think that's a very positive thing. And the Hong Creek Community Association will continue to provide coordination and support. So with that, I thank you for your time, and I'm hoping we can make something happen in Haw Creek Park. I want to also recognize before I stop is that there's a number of people here in the room that are very, very passionate about this. And the Haw Creek Community Association Clean and Green Committee, raise your hand, have been very, very active in trying to keep this park going. And so I think they deserve a lot of credit for their community. So thank you.

I don't know if...

Yeah, DK and I talked about this at the beginning of the meeting. And we shared the presentation ahead of time so that staff was able to see it. And I think Parks and Rec has already agreed to partner. And I think what I'm hearing from you all is kind of like, well, you've agreed to partner, but have you agreed to partner like this far? this much, this deep. So the managers heard the request and I think we'll wait for some follow-up.

Because you don't need anything other, you don't need anything from us.

No, we'll follow up and evaluate resources.

I'm curious to know where this fits in with the urban forestry master plans. If they're looking at the same area of resources and maintenance, that would be good to know.

Just as a general nerd fact, we lose more land to invasive species than we do to development each year. I learned that in city planning school. And there are some active groups, volunteer groups, throughout the community that are going ready. They're ready to show up and dig. And I'd love to come out and help you. I know when we were enacting the Tree Canopy Protection Ordinance, this was probably four or five years ago, there was a lot of talk about preserving trees from being cut down and planting more trees where we build, but there was zero talk about saving trees from vines. And I remember just looking around the neighborhood that still, I see it every day, I just cannot believe how many trees, as a community, we are giving up to the vines. It's insane.

Okay. Oh, we have one more person signed up to speak. Yeah, is he here? Jonathan Wayne Scott? You are here. I'm sorry. I couldn't see you.

He's back.

Hey, last time I came down here, I came here specifically to wish the mayor a happy 7th, 49th birthday, but that got interrupted by a tornado, so I made sure that that happened tonight. And also, I'm not sure if I'll be here when Maggie has her last day, but I certainly hope that I am. You know, you have to let me know when. when that happens, so I can thank you for all your service over the year, and of course, you know, continue to explore.

It's gonna be October 27th.

October 27th, great. I'll get my Chippendales dancing outfit ready, all for my favorite question.

Okay.

Dare me, anyway. Okay, so my name's Jonathan Wainscott, and I just want to thank the City Council for canceling the contract with the flock cameras and everything. I think there's sort of across the board, across the political spectrum backlash against all of this excessive surveillance that we experience in this world. But I tonight am actually advocating for more surveillance. And what I would like to have more surveillance of is our public funds. I as a person, as a singular member of the public, I can see my money, which isn't a big task because there's not a whole lot of it, but I can go online and I can see my credit card, I can see my bank statement, my mortgage statement, I can see every transaction that flows through my tiny little purse. Okay, so We, the people, should be able to see our money, all of the money. And this is kind of inspired by the recent events of our cousin city, Cary, North Carolina. I'm sure that you saw a couple months ago the ridiculous expenditures, $1,600 in Ray-Bans and $4,000 steak dinners in a book. Yeah, my next chapters are almost done there, Esther. So, you know, all these crazy things. And then the state auditor goes back through the record. Now, the thing is... There's a record that's being made every day. Every bit of money that we transfer from one fund to another and down until the checks are spent, we ought to be able to see that. You know, I know that it's a big, you know, it's a monumental record to be sifted through, but we've got an army of nerds in the world and computers able to monitor this. So we can eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse. Like, I can go on and see the waste in my account, for which there's a lot. The more I look at it, the more I'm going to act on reducing that waste. I can see fraud. I can see the abuse. So if we were able to crowdsource and we the people saw our money, it's our money, not just that which we pay, but the grants that we get and all that, we should be able to see it every day. And you could be revolutionary in this. Imagine the other cities that would follow suit if we were to do such a progressive thing here in our progressive Asheville. Transparency for the people. You guys have got to be down with that, right?

Thank you.

I do have a couple of...

Okay, then that concludes our public comment, I guess, before we adjourn.

I do, I hear the folks about the bears. In fact, I was reaching out to staff about trying to maybe move that bear to our city nature center. Unfortunately, that wasn't going to work out at our nature center because we already have two mama alphas that are there. But I think working with the staff and the North Carolina Wildlife Commission to save that bear and all of our bears and also get those bear resistant trash cans out there. I would also maybe bring to public safety. I do agree that maybe we need to look at more accountability for the humans that are feeding bears, and maybe look at our ordinances around that. And also, I haven't had my public safety meeting, but I want the homelessness issue in West Asheville on that meeting. I want safe shelter there. We gave them almost $300,000 in February and we have an explosion of homelessness and I mean, I want this at every single public safety meeting until we get this under control because something's not working and I wanna know what they're doing with that money and how they're spending it. We also need a standing order for our firefighters who are EMTs for antipsychotics and medications so that when they are interacting with our folks, just like the paramedic co-responder program, they have standing orders for meds, and there's no reason why we can't have that as well. And then also just pushing admission for that direct admission to the psychiatric unit.

Well, what I will say, since we're just going on, Because my intention was to speak with you about it. Over the weekend, I was downtown and I was waiting for a reservation. So I decided to walk across the street. And unfortunately, there was a gentleman who was in the midst of a mental health crisis. And as I was walking by, he grabbed for me. So I contacted rest. Folks came down. I was really impressed by the level of respect that folks gave him. And they knew him by name. But he was falling through the cracks because he knew the answers to the requisite questions. And one of the entities that we're partnering with wasn't working that night. And so nothing could be done for him. And they worked with him for 40 minutes. Then he got up and left. It was dangerous for him. It's dangerous for other folks, too. So, let's talk about that.

Bo, Councilman Hess, I really appreciate some of your words. I live off Haywood Road in West Asheville, much like the comment. I really appreciate you being here tonight. I'm experiencing that. I've lived there for 25 years, and I know it's not just West Asheville, but Haywood Road is really undergoing some serious challenges right now. As is Tunnel Road. Yeah, it's not just Haywood Road. Haywood Road is just more one of our traversed corridors. And previous to some issues, I think we had a conflict, but some of us were going to walk West Asheville with the city manager. So let's reschedule that immediately.

And I think Jade... Dundas gave us an update sort of recently regarding the corridor work. So maybe we need, and it was during a work session. It was a pretty high level. So maybe we need to have a touch back on that to get an update of where that's at holistically.

Can we also get an update from the COC and the DOT conversation? Because one of the things I was really starkly aware of is how many people were displaced by the beginning of the clearing of the I-26 connector and how quickly people moved into West Asheville, Montford, Tunnel Road. We knew there was gonna be displacement, we didn't have a plan in place. So now it feels like we're scrambling. It certainly feels very urgent in the neighborhoods. Regarding the bear situation, can we get an update on what the backlog is for cans and how long it takes to fill it? Because what I'm hearing in the Montford and Kenilworth neighborhoods is people have been waiting a really long time and the timeline surprised me. So understanding why there's a backlog and how long it takes would also be helpful.

It's been months and I think there's something with the manufacturing of the cans. Are there some reason why they're not entirely available? But on the bear issue, this actually came up a while back, and I met with the Wildlife Commission folks because at the time, Franklin, North Carolina, had passed a pretty strong ordinance around bear-wise protections and requirements for residents. to follow bear-wise practices. And so we weighed that decision here and did tighten our ordinance to make it clear that it's not legal to feed bears. People are doing it. I talk to people all the time. I'll say, my neighbor's on both sides. I was talking to someone last night on Macon Avenue, and she said, our neighbors on both sides were feeding bears. And so I know they're putting out food. They literally put out food for the bears.

Oh, my gosh.

So... So what obviously happens is then you get bears just regularly coming. Actually, and what had happened there is the bear had ripped off the gas line on the side of the house, and there was a gas leak, and the gas company had to come out and fix it. They're very strong. So... but we did talk about at that time whether or not to move in the direction like some of the western cities do like in boulder colorado where if a bear gets into your bear your can the fine is for you it's two hundred dollars per property owner um if that unless they've changed it and they put the onus on the property owner not to have the trash cans broken into and I think the feeling about individual rights in the West versus in North Carolina sometimes are different. For example, you also get fined out there if you don't shovel your sidewalk before 9 a.m. or whatever the time cutoff is. We have viewed those things differently in the South. We have not gone so far as to fine people for those kinds of things. But we have seen, I mean, I moved to this town in 1988. You never saw a bear. And the reason you never saw bears is because there weren't very many of them. And now apparently there are 40,000 bears in Western North Carolina. So sometimes you hear people say that we're moving into their territory, but actually they have exploded in population. And a lot of the reason why is because they can eat our trash. And they... are not supposed to be having four cubs. That's not what a bear is supposed to be doing. According to the wildlife folks, they really should only be having one or two cubs, but they are getting lots of protein. So they're just growing huge, and they're everywhere. They're all over the place.

Well, if it helps for staff, though, what I'm hearing in one of the neighborhoods is someone's feeding them dog food that are the bear cans, because there's not enough bear cans. So it's cyclical, and so it would help to know how do we get more bear cans, what does that cost, what is the backlog, and why is that a backlog?

And we could, we often put in water bills information about new laws or stricter laws or whatever, We might consider an insert that does go over the rules for people that they cannot feed bears, even if they think they're not feeding them when they're putting bird food on the ground in their backyard or cat food on their back door or whatever back doorstep.

I love that idea. Before we do it, let's coordinate with these Bear Wise folks. I would love to see a bear movement. I'd love to be Bear City, not Beer City. You know, I think the trash cans, I've heard complaints over the years, they actually still get broken into. People are having to go above and beyond. So what I did, because we're just like way out of your ordinary yearly plan right here, but what I did was start a new note for my 2027-2028 budget planning. And the big first item is, how are we dealing with our bears?

Awesome.

Okay. Yeah. And I, and you know, anyway, not to keep, everyone's got to go home, but I do think we need to touch in with wildlife because I'm sort of surprised that North Carolina hasn't come to terms with the fact that we have a lot of bears now in this state. And we can, because it is a wildlife regulated, but like, for example, states like Florida that have an alligator problem, they're very aggressive about removing very quickly problematic alligators and moving them off. But they've had to do that because it's such a safety threat. And we just, I think we're just sort of coming to the realization here that we got a problem with this situation. All right, we covered a lot of miscellaneous things, Madam Manager. But it was about saving housing, saving trees, saving bears. Yeah, we had a lot of stuff.