Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

And our first order of business, if everyone who is able would rise, will do the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. So with the meeting in session, the next Item is the roll call of the membership. I think I will turn on people's.

It's been so long.

Well, yes, yes, yes. Everyone's mic is live now, so no misbehaving. We'll do a roll call of the membership of the board. So Mr. Spurrow?

Here.

Mr. Angstrom? Here. Ms. Kane? Here. Mr. Lewson?

Here.

I'm Paul McCann here as well. The board indicates... Michael Babitz, Michael has resigned from the board. He moved to the town of Harrison. He took up the same position in the town of Harrison on their board of appeals. Good for Michael. Next on the agenda is to approve the minutes. And if you can believe it, our last meeting was November 17th, 2025. So we all have to first remember what November 17th was like, and then review the minutes.

I've had a chance to review, and I'd move to approve the minutes.

Seconded. So moved by Mr. Engstrom, seconded by Ms. Kane. Chloe is writing vigorously. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay, the next part of the meeting is for any public appearances. Anyone other than the applicant for the cases that are before us tonight who has an opinion or a question or any kind of an issue with the case is welcome to come forward, identify yourself, and then let the board know what you'd like to say about the case, and we'd be happy to to hear what you have on your mind. Are there any people here of the three guests who would like to appear? Come on forward, that microphone should be live. If you could introduce yourself please and then. You may check, it may be red or something. Go ahead. I don't think the microphone is on, but go ahead.

I always thought, personally, I'm worried about the cost.

So your concern would be drainage from the area above that he's planning? OK. OK. All right. Thank you. Does the board have any questions for Mr. Ominous? OK. Thank you. Any other?

All of this would be the Is the integrity

Okay. Whose retaining wall is it? Do we have any idea how old it is? So it's about 30 years old?

30 years ago.

And it's privately owned? That wall is privately owned? The street is a private street?

Yes.

Okay. And do you have an idea where the property line is for the homeowners association? Is it six feet on the other side of the wall, or is it at the wall?

I can tell you.

Okay, we'll ask the applicant when he comes forward. Okay. We understand, I think, we understand your concerns. Do you have any questions? No? Third and final opportunity? No? Okay. Then we will continue forward with the items on the agenda. First case is 72 Garden Court. If Ms. Drummle will read the request for variance. And the applicant will come forward. Maybe you can look at that microphone and see if you can turn it on while she's talking. Go ahead.

Thank you.

Tell you what, let me try that.

Testing.

There we go. Awesome. All right. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Sorry.

It's her turn.

Just got to introduce the agenda item. So we're here for 72 garden court. The applicant proposes to construct an accessory building that is six feet away from what is defined as one of the front property lot lines along hidden access court. That is the private street we were referring to earlier. Section 2343 G one, and I'd like to amend it to be D as in Derek of the zoning code ordinance. So E is prohibiting accessory buildings in the front yard. D is the exception for corner lots or multiple frontages that requires it to be setback the same as the principal setback. So the principal building, meaning the dwelling, has a 20 foot minimum setback and he would not have enough space between the dwelling and the detached accessory building to accommodate that zoning code.

Okay. So I have a couple of questions for the city before we get started. This is a private road. And how does the city define that as a road versus just a private lot line?

If you give me a minute, I can find the definition.

Because the concern here for those in the audience is that, I mean, if this were just backyards to backyards, this wouldn't be necessarily an issue. He'd have an opportunity, that'd be his backyard, and he'd have a different set of requirements for where he could put something. This being a road behind him, if it were a city street, his property would actually have three front yards, according to the way the city looks at it, and that's where we're sitting here today, interpreting it as three front yards. So I just need to understand, because we don't have many private roads in town, we haven't really dealt with many situations where it's a private road versus a public right-of-way, and I'd just like to make sure that that's clear before we go forward with whatever the applicant has. I couldn't find it.

It took me a while the first time I looked it up too. So there's a few definitions for street one of them being street comma private means a street that has not been accepted by the city of Appleton or other governmental agency and then. One of the definitions for the frontage or front property lot lines, I'll find it in a minute, defines it as from a street, anything or any lot line that abuts a street.

So even though it's private, it's defined as a street?

It just may not be built to the city standards, which is why they may or may not accept it at that point. if it's trying to be transferred in to city ownership. Typically on private roads, and typically is not always, typically in private roads, property lines go to the center line of that road, from my experience.

And there's nobody on the other side in this case. I mean, it looked like there's parking. There must be visitor parking or something.

Okay.

Do you want to continue to look and just, just, just hold it. Okay.

Go ahead and.

Uh, development, the guy who owned my house bought that all, all that land, uh, it overlooks the river. and it's on the river. And he was building a house. He was selling both houses at the same time. I bought his old one, the one we live in, built in 55. And he moved to his new one, which was almost constructed and done. And he just ran out of steam building new houses and selling those to make some money. So he just started selling the lots. 10 years later, another house showed up. That guy bought the lot next to him to kind of protect himself from more development. Another house built, and they bought the lot next to them. Again, just kind of seal off the area. And then there was finally a fourth house. So there's four houses down there, potentially a fifth. And in 28 years I've been there, I just assumed I had a backyard. I never viewed that as something other. I'm on Garden Court on the side of my house. Probably a 400 foot, 300 foot road. It's a private road. It's marked private drive, whatever. It's part of their little covenant and it wraps behind my house, directly behind my house and where these homes are. So there's a 14, 15 foot concrete brick wall there. And I had my house surveyed maybe five years ago just for the hell that I was going to build a fence between me and my neighbor, the only neighbor I really have, and just to know where my lot lines. So the lot lines, there's a wall, there's a short green fence along that 15-foot wall, and it swings in and out kind of my lot, my property. So I had it surveyed. Some of that green fence is on my property. Some of it's on theirs. There's no... Really, it's like right on the property line.

Excuse me, and that's intended for safety?

Yeah, I mean, you're going to drop 15 foot. If you're in my yard, you're going to go down 15 foot to the grass.

So it was put there, I assume, by the homeowners association for safety reasons because there's that drop off. Is that fair to say? And it's maintained by them?

What?

The fence is maintained by the people?

No, the fence has never been maintained by anybody but me. There's no maintenance to it. It's covered with vines for 26 years. Two years ago, one of the property owners who we're very good friends with cleaned off a lot of the vines and just wanted to clean it up. I think a lot of the vines hung down onto their brick wall or concrete wall and they just didn't like it. So they dug all that out and kind of perennially now they go through and Clean those vines out just to keep that it's a chain link fence about this doll Clear so that's cool. So nobody's there's no maintenance on it.

There's no You know there's no issues about it Well let me just the reason I ask these questions Whatever we do here is forever yeah, right? So I mean if we if we grant a variance for somebody to do what they want to do in that front yard that permission will be for the life of the property. And so, I mean, you can talk about a fence that's been there for 30 years. It isn't going to be there for 130 years. So someone has to have responsibility. And I'm trying to just understand, because even speaking to the question about drainage, you know, if somebody has responsibility for, I'll make up numbers, six feet of a property that's above that retaining wall to try to maintain the integrity of that retaining wall, that's a different thing in my mind than if the property line's right up to the retaining wall and someone has sort of abdicated responsibility for maintaining that. So that's the reason for the questions. It's not to get nitpicky about you know, where your property line is or anything like that.

Yeah, yeah. I would just say that in 28 years that I've lived there, there's never been a discussion about that brick wall or that fence ever. And that's not even relevant to this discussion, in my opinion. So I called the city just to make sure if I was gonna do a little slab and a greenhouse, what is my setback from my backyard property? I consider that my backyard. And the lady I talked to, and she ended up getting Kurt on the phone too, and they were both very kind. They were looking at a plot map and they said, no, you have a road on three sides of your house. You have three front yards and a side yard. You can't build anything ever on those sides of your house. I thought that was a little weird. Anyhow, next week I called Kurt back and I said, that's just weird. Let me send you some photos of my situation. It's really a backyard. And it's all private property on the side and back of me. So there's no issues with aesthetics or whatever. This is not my front yard. So he said, no, why don't I just come over and see what you got? So he did. And super nice guy. And basically after seeing that it's a backyard with a 15-foot drop, or so. He said, yeah, you should probably, now that I see on the map, there was no height variations, and so he kind of encouraged me to go forward with this. So I would have, anyhow, but... So that's why I'm here today. If you read the brief, I explained what I'm doing. It's going to be a small slab of either a circle, 12 to 14, or maybe a rectangle. I don't think it matters. and just a small greenhouse. So no one could see it except for my neighbors, and you have to look up, and if you look up from that road, you can see the kind of top half of my house. You can't see any of my backyard. You can see the green fence, and that's it in the top of my house. So aesthetically, I don't know that it has any, if they have an issue, they can say so. As far as drainage, That wouldn't even be, I think, I mean, if the rain's gonna fall on a roof of a greenhouse or on my grass, I don't know the difference.

Right? Well, one's an impervious surface. I think that's what their concern is, is that it directs the rain to an area that could be vulnerable. But I'm not sure that we can determine that from here.

Yeah, that's, it's a, I mean, I can put a slab in my backyard tomorrow if I want. This is about building, not a slab. So whether I do a slab or footings is immaterial. I just want to do a structure in that area. And the road is a private road, private drive. It's marked that way, private road. Deliveries go back there, garbage pickup and mail, and that's it.

You guys do, do you have an HOA for that community or who pays for the load? I'm not part of it.

When I bought that guy's house, the only part of that HOA are the people down in that private covenant. And so these people and three other owners, I think, is it. So they decide amongst themselves, you know, plowing and landscaping and whatever.

Can we ask you to step aside for a second and speak with whichever UMNIS would like to come forward and answer just a couple more questions, maybe? Kelly, you had a question for them?

I was just curious if there's an HOA.

Yeah, it's an HOA for eight lots, four families.

So has there been maintenance done on this? I mean, we're getting down a little bit of a path here that the variance isn't about the retaining wall. It's more about the setbacks and things. But I think just to be fair, I mean, you got to consider the other issue, but we're looking at something that's really potentially nothing or it could be something, but it's not really anything to do with the variance. But I was curious, has there been maintenance done on that? Was that professionally installed? Do we know? Yeah.

So, um, I just acquired my property two months ago. Okay, things and so did my dad, we acquired my sister and brother law acquired another property. So we bought three properties within his HOA like six or eight weeks ago. So we're still kind of kind of figuring it out. But I guess I just want to reiterate, you know, we don't have any issues with like the aesthetic or trying to like halt any on somebody else's property. If they want to build on their property, they should be able to. But HOA is responsible for this massive retaining wall. So if something is going to damage the integrity of the retaining wall, we are going to be responsible for that. So that's the only thing that we are trying to make sure isn't jeopardized.

OK.

I have a question. Was this raised with the HOA? Like was this taken to the HOA president or anything like that that, hey, this could be a concern or, hey, we have some people in this?

Not that I know of. I mean, we just got this notice in the mail like a week ago. Sure. OK. I mean, we've been talking to other folks about it.

It seems like we don't have a lot of history in the room regarding the HOA and its responsibilities for that. we're just going to be maybe a little bit light on history unless our friends at the city can tell us what the establishment of this was and what the criteria or the responsibilities were when it was laid out.

I wasn't looking for specifically like the installation of the private driver or anything. the property we're here for 72 garden court was year built for the dwelling was 1957 so assuming that there wasn't severe grading in his backyard the backyard of the owner at the time i would guess the wall is probably around the same time it's hard to tell it it seems to me that there had to be because this is a really unusual situation that you can

dig and remove that much of the grade in a backyard or front yard, whenever it was a backyard at one point in time and create a front yard without some sort of stipulations agreed to with the city. Because I can't think of another property in Appleton where there's a 50 foot drop off between property lines that's not pretty well defined or the city owns one side and the property owner owns the other. So there has to be some definition somewhere.

I did find the definition for the front lot line. And I can read that one real quick while I'm looking up the plat for the other properties. But lot line front means the boundary of a lot that abuts a dedicated public street or private street. If a lot abuts two or more dedicated public streets or two or more private streets, all sides facing a dedicated public street or private street shall be considered the front in the case of a landlocked lot.

And what provision are you looking at there? Definitions.

Definitions.

Thank you.

23.

So you may step back, and I don't think we have any other questions for the neighbor.

One of the adjoining property, not adjoining, sorry, the property on Hiddens Acres Court, I found one that was built in 1999, so the wall could have been established when they were putting in that private street. I'm looking up the plat.

Just to follow up, I've been there 20 years. I bought the house from a guy named Dennis Vigou who bought all of that land. He lived in my home. He bought all that land from the railroad. So however, 30 years ago, he got, approximately 30, he got clearances and... all the permits and zoning and whatever, he built what he did. He put in this whole development down there, put six lots down there, and started, he built his home, moved into it when I bought his, and was gonna sell, and he just started selling lots. So however it happened, it's there.

But he owned both, he wasn't establishing 15-foot drop-off at someone else's property line. It was his property line.

Yeah, he basically owned my house all the way to the river. And so he, you know, in I'm sure coordination with the city, he's put these lots together in certain sizes. He maximized that development to sell as many lots as he could and make money. And that was his goal. So he built the first home and He moved into it and lost energy for it. So they just sold the lot. So I've been there 28 years. Dennis lived there for probably another, I don't know, 10 years before he moved to Mexico. And there's zero maintenance on that wall. There's never been a contractor, a person. There's never been a repair. There's nothing in 28 years on that wall. or to any other part of that driveway or their landscaping or anything. 10 years after Dennis moved out, another guy, Bernie Laird, a high school buddy of mine, moved in, bought the home, the lot, another lot, and just recently sold it. And the only people who live in that covenant down there are Perry and Steve Tank, who have taken a little bit of leadership and done all the landscaping. They're the only ones who've taken any time. I think their own money, maybe they went to the HOA and said, hey, we want to spend money on landscaping or whatever. But they're the only ones who have taken any interest in all of that property, the HOA, it's whatever. So that's the history of that development. I just want to put a greenhouse in what I consider my backyard. It overlooks a private development, and I don't think it conflicts anything with any type of city ordinance about aesthetics and building a shed in your front yard or something. I get that.

Tim, there's a picture in here with three different styles. Do you have a style selected?

One very similar to that.

Those three of them here though, I mean.

Yeah, well, they're all brick and they're all glass. So there'll be a brick foundation and it's all, you know, it's all somewhat on.

Backtracking, what type of foundation? Are you talking slab on grade? Are you talking frost walls or?

Just a four inch slab on directly on soil.

So no frost walls or?

Well, there'll be, you know, a 12 inch gravel pad and a four inch sand pad and that's it. I may just go with footings. I could do that too, so.

What type of footing? The reason I'm asking that is, I'm going back to their concerns about the integrity of that wall. Are you digging four feet down, or are you digging 12 inches down?

Oh, yeah, well, for the slab, it's not even, it's probably eight inches down, you know, to do a four-inch slab on four inches of gravel or some sand underneath. And the backyard is a little bit sloped anyhow, so to have it level, there'll be a little bit, on the back side, so it's just a simple slab on dirt and gravel.

No heavy equipment, no pile driving.

No, no, simply out of cost, and I have a contractor all set, and he's gonna maybe a couple weeks, but I'm thinking about just saving the money a slab, which is a couple grand back there, and doing just footings, you know, just 12-inch tubes. And I don't need a slab. I just made, just do a free, you know, footings on four corners, maybe two in the middle, and just build a simple, you know, set a greenhouse right on it. But I really prefer to do vintage architectural salvage pieces and build my own thing and do it cost-effectively and so forth. So that's the plan. I don't know what else you might wanna know or feelings I have or perspectives, but that's kind of it.

So the hardship, I mean, one of the things that we need to understand here is a hardship that is created by someone who would have to comply with the code as written. And it sounds as if your hardship would be sort of an area You don't have the area because of the three front yards. You don't have an area that could allow you to effectively use your property.

Yeah, that's exactly it. You know, if I had 30 feet on my side yard next to my neighbor, my only really side neighbor with a home, Ben Fogle. I guess maybe I could build something in there, but I don't. We have 30 feet between us or something. So I can't do it there. So yeah, as a tax-paying citizen, I'm sort of prohibited from having the freedom and the liberty to do what I can do. And I asked Kurt last week for any of the ordinances and codes relevant to this kind of issue, and he sent me everything. And as you were trying to look them up. I read through them 10 times, and it's all aesthetics. A little bit of safety, somebody puts a home, a shed in their front yard on a corner, vision issues, but this does not conflict, there's no aesthetic issues with this whatsoever. So I don't know what else, why this would not be granted. I can't think of a good reason, but in any event, I'm here to plead that, so.

So in order to get an area variance by definition in the code, I'm gonna read this for the sake of accuracy. It says, for an area variance, by demonstrating that strict compliance with a zoning ordinance would unreasonably prevent the property owner from using the property owner's property for a permitted purpose or would render the conformity with the zoning ordinance unnecessarily burdensome, which means your circumstances created three front yards. So that creates this unusual circumstance within the city. Anybody else with a front yard probably doesn't have two other front yards. Maybe they do in neighborhoods over near yours. River Drive, I know we've had some issues with different properties that are on an island in the middle of two streets and things like that. So you do have a, I mean, I think you described a hardship based on the private road that is wrapped around your property on two sides.

Yeah, I'm prohibited by a private development. Additionally, just from a study standpoint, which your laws are designed to have a beautiful city and nice neighborhoods and all that. So if I was on a peninsula and you had a surface, Appleton surface street, I mean, I totally get it. I wouldn't want my neighbors building sheds in their front yards or sheet metal buildings. So I understand that. But there's two things here. It's private development, one. And two, it's a 15-foot concrete wall. So if you stand in that road, that driveway, that access road to these homes, and look at my property, you see a wall. You see a brick wall. That's your aesthetic. If you look up, you'll see the top of my house. The photos I gave you are from 75 yards away from my house as far as I could get so that you can kind of see all of my back of the house, but you can't see into my yard. The only way you can see into my yard is to climb that 15-foot wall and look into my backyard. It's certainly a unique situation, and it doesn't go against anything I think the city has set up as an ordinance to protect its beautification or whatever.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think it is exceptional. It's not an ordinary circumstance, and I'm not sure that with the unique limitations that you have, I think you probably have a pretty good case for a hardship. Any other points that you'd like to make? No, that's it.

Unless there's any other questions, no, I'm

If there are no questions by the Board, I'll entertain a motion on the variance.

I'll move to approve. I'll second.

Moved and seconded to approve the variance. Any further discussion?

I just would like to reiterate, I don't think the neighbors had a problem with the aesthetics of it. Their concerns are with the integrity of the existing wall that's been there forever. I think one of them stated they didn't have a problem with the unit there. And from what you've described, I'm not sure you know what you're going to put there for foundation. And I heard grade beam, I heard slab on grade, and then I heard some type of pier. So, I mean, I would just maybe be considerate of what that may or may not do to the integrity of the retaining wall, although that has actually no bearing on what this is. I mean, this variance has nothing to do with the integrity of the retaining wall.

That's correct. It has nothing to do with it. I would suggest they get some structural engineers.

You should talk to me, sir.

That's my suggestion. I'm a good neighbor, so if I do puddings to alleviate some stress, that's fine, too. It's a lot cheaper, and so I don't need a concrete slab if I don't have to, so I appreciate it.

So moved and seconded. Any further? Okay, then we'll take a vote. Mr. Spurrow? Aye. Mr. Angstrom?

Aye.

Ms. Kane? Aye. Mr. Lewson?

Aye.

For affirmative votes, the motion carries. Good luck with your variance and your construction project.

Cool. All right, thank you. Appreciate it.

Thank you. All right, the next item on the agenda, because we seem to meet once or twice a year only. Last time we met, I think we belatedly elected chair and vice chair. It's usually done in the June, July timeframe, and here we are. So are there any nominations?

I'd like to make a motion to nominate yourself, Paul, for chair, and Scott for vice chair, even though that's probably the next item. We'll get that right out of the way with two nominations.

Is there a second for both? Seconded for both. You okay with that? Sounds good to me. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Aye.

No.

I won't officially oppose. I'll agree.

Formally, I voted for him. I abstained for my own.

And same for me. You might want to write that down. Just take the November minutes and copy and paste. Copy and paste, yeah. Any other business tonight?

No, that would be it.

Okay, and has anything come in for the August meeting to date? There's seven or 11 or 13 days.

We're working with them.

Okay.

We're providing options to go with a compliant direction. We'll see.

Okay, so from a city standpoint, the reason for fewer requests, do you believe it's the permitting fee that was increased from $135 to $350 or whatever.

At least the three years I've been here, so I was here when it was still $150 before the $350, it's been curtainized direction to lean towards finding a compliant option, not just that one that they originally suggest. Like I was just talking to someone who wants a standard rectangle garage, which would not... comply with his property. So we came up with a plan to do like a little L shape. So he'd have like a little storage area around the side.

And so just a little more footwork for the city. Okay.

I'm full of ideas. Okay.

I'll obtain a motion to adjourn.

Also move.

Mr. Spurl. Seconded. Mr. Kane. Second. All in favor say aye. Aye. We are adjourned. Thank you everybody.