City Council - Regular Meeting

Junction work session of April 20th, 2026 to order and ask everyone to put their cell phones on silence. Roll call. Mayor Wilson here. Vice Mayor Schroeder present. Council member Cross here. Council member Hec here. Council member Johnson here. Council member Nesser present. Council member Ser here. You have a quorum, your honor.

Thank you. Agenda items. Presentation, discussion on award of contract for Wilmeck Construction LLC for construction management at risk. Shane, good evening, mayor, vice mayor, council members, and city staff. My name is Shane Kiso. I am the public works deputy director. So glad to be with you here tonight on a project that very much means a lot for me because I work at this location for many many years and look forward to a change. So we'll talk about the public works expansion phase one project. That's what the solicitation was named so that we've used that uh title synonymous with public works water uh district project down at 575 East Baseline. So I just wanted to point that out not to be confused with uh two different titles. So purpose of the discussion here tonight is we are seeking to hire construction manager at risk um for short. Semar might hear that uh uh definition from me as we move through. Um this will be for the pre-construction services uh for this project that currently is in design. We're right in the middle of design right now. So this is an opportune time to get the Seymar on board to take the full advantages of the Seymar. So it's for presentation and discussion here tonight and uh yeah open it up for discussion as we as we go through or if you want to save any questions towards the end I'll be available. Also I have other city staff here available. Also have a representative from Wilm here tonight as well as from EDS which is the next presentation after this if there is value with any questions for them. So thank you for them to make themselves available here for tonight as well. So fun exciting here. Got some exhibits

to show. This is the site plan. So we are currently in design with BWS. They helped us with putting the master plan together which is site look site plan is part of that master plan. The existing terracotta or red buildings are our existing buildings, our operations main building. If you follow the arrow right there, so that's our main building. We have some out buildings in back and this is the fuel island canopy. So these buildings as we move forward with any construction are planned to stay. We do have some life of our existing public works building that we will convert to sign shop uh traffic signal shop and additional staff space for those functions. We just do not have enough space in the larger admin building or fleet shop uh building in blue.

So in blue right here, this is the new building expansion and fleet base. that we're looking to looking to add or have part of this project. And we'll talk a little bit more about the scope as we as we move forward. All right, another exciting exhibit here. This is uh conceptual rendering aerial. So, we're over the top of baseline right here looking towards the south southsoutheast. Here's our existing building that might be familiar to you. So, we look to have the addition which will house public works. Uh the public works at 575 baseline currently housed in our old building, but also joining with AJ Water staff in this new location with our new fleet bays also on the back side um of the of the building as well as you could see the needed public uh parking improvements up front and then some improvements to the yard also in the back for the equipment. Our current existing equipment yard resides right here. So, of course, we're going to have to be putting a lot of that equipment now back towards towards the back. Another exciting picture. So, this is ground elevation of the front side of the building. You can see it's a twotory two-story building about 30,000 square feet. Uh definitely want to be building this building for about 15 20 years in advance. So, we're trying to build it so we have that room to to expand. We did some tours of other public works facilities and one of the common themes was build for expansion. Some of them built and within just a couple years afterwards they're expanding again because of the growth. So our hope is to build this ba building for the next 15 20 years so we don't have to pay that additional cost for contractors mobilized to put in another extension on existing existing building we just built.

Project description. I mentioned some of this, but uh I want to point out that this project will include some off-site improvements uh adjacent to Baseline Avenue. So, when our existing building uh was construction was constructed, no sidewalk curb gutter was installed at that time. to this project. We will look to do those off-site public improvements as well as widen baseline and additional lane um as needed as our transportation plans call for when it comes to the widening of that street. There'll be some significant site grading and drainage. Our current detention um area pond is currently uh right in the back side of our field uh equipment yard area and that will be right in the area too where we're looking to expand the fleet facilities. So we're going to have to be cutting, grading, filling that detention and creating another detention further back on the property. Uh this project includes the design construction of a 30-foot administrative building as I said housing the existing public works staff that's at 575 east baseline but then also bringing in AJ water staff that currently occupies space in the city hall. So you can see we're trying to add space down to public works for expansion but this is also project has additional benefit of getting AJ water out of city hall and creating that additional space too that this building also needs as well. And then we talked about the fleet bay again with our with our growth with the city. Um growth of our fleet is continuing to expand. So we are currently we are tight on uh fleet bays. This will actually double the size of our existing fleet bays. Also include pass through bays. So, we'll have bays that larger pieces of vehicles could actually drive in instead of backing in or having to pulling forward and then back out, which sometimes causes problems and safety concerns when doing doing that. This design also includes those improvements

as I mentioned with associated parking lots up front. Currently, we have really no established good-looking landscape. Um, so we're hoping to make the frontage of the building better looking. Also, there's security improvements we'd like to be made. We've had some problems over the years with security down there with theft of and breakins of vehicles at that site location. So, we hope to address those issues, too, as part of of this construction project. So, as I mentioned, we're currently in design. If we're keeping on pace here, hopefully we get the Seymar and our construction manager on here soon to not delay further, but uh we're we're on pace right now to finish design towards the end of this current calendar year towards the end of the year into the early 2027. We look to then enter the permit review and final construction 100% construction plans review and hopefully be set up then to start start construction in that second quarter around the same time next next year essentially start start the construction construction I think may may last about a year just depends on how much we do how soon we get going the public uh improvements along baseline how soon there's feasible that we could start those improvements before we started going vertical on the construction site which might uh you know benefit the the the schedule and um the time frame sooner and a gross maximum price to award. So again, the Seamar will be h helping put that GMP together as we'll discuss here in a minute. That'll be early 2027 with getting the contractor on board uh the construction contractor on board at that time and be ready to go for that construction in that second quarter 27.

Yep. Yes, sir. Council member, so the way we're going about doing this is this putting Wilming in the uh driver's seat for being the general contractor for the actual build phase. Yes, they're going to have carnal knowledge on everything in this. it's going to create any kind of a conflict of issue or you know

it it it could council member across um Seymar um is will with Will Mang they will be competitively bidding this and will mang to construction more than likely would also you know put a bid in for for for the project. Um, however, we have such great value with the Seymar, and we'll talk about that next, what the Seamar brings to the table when it comes to getting a Seymar on board because they are so affiliated with construction. They know construction. So, they will add significant value to the design, making sure it's constructed, and we'll talk about talk about that, but yes, that is something that we're going to be uh keeping in mind and concerned with and making sure it is uh correctly bid. uh when when that time comes for the project. Thank you for that question. Anything else before I know I'm going somewhat fast. We will definitely make sure we have time for more questions here as we get get going. Uh so so to council crosses, here's uh essentially scope of work to as I mentioned with the Semar. I'm not going to read through all those bullet points, but I wanted to just elaborate a little bit. As I said, they are joining the design at a pivotal point. We're at the end of our schematic design before we go into full design. Semar part of their scope of work is help putting estimates together um with that estimate estimation that will help us finish budgeting identifying the monies that we need as we move forward through the rest of the design and prepare for construction. Also I just mentioned too they add a significant value because the Seymar is affiliated with the the construction um side of things. They are not just an architect that went to you know school for being an architect and not have construction experience. Semar has construction experience. They will be

able to add a lot of input into design. Uh make sure things are constructable and see those problem points or those issues that are going to be happening. add that value engineering. When I say value engineering, look at the design and say, "Hey, yep, maybe not. Maybe we build it this way. We could save that much money or add this much more value this way." Have those discussions that will actually increase quality for the end product too when we go to construction. Also, with their estimating, with that value engineering, it will help mitigate any any u overruns. um uh when we get to the construction stage too because they have it well calculated out with their estimating and their input when it comes to constructibility uh when we get to that point. Also I wanted to point out towards the last bullet point there plan construction phasing and coordination of the active work site public works we need to keep running during this construction. We have a role with the city we can't we just don't have the luxury of shutting down and letting the contractor use the whole property for construction. So this phasing of this construction is going to be quite a coordination effort. So that Seymour and as I'll talk about here in a little while, a construction manager are going to be significant for us to navigate and planning the phasing of the construction. So we're able to keep the public works um our functions going, keeping that fuel island open, which is significant for not just the city, but other agencies too that use our our fuel island as well as the shooting range um open as well during this construction. So um and I think I'll stop on that. I just want to point out those main benefits of why we look to use this project delivery method. This is a very common s uh delivery method that you see. I've seen some at horizontal construction, but I

think you see more when it comes to vertical building construction gets more complicated and I could speak to that. I'm more used to horizontal construction than vertical construction and gets much more complicated. So, we need those experts, the experts to help us through this uh multi-million dollar project. And I'm going to let Mike uh public works director just chime in. He'll finish uh finish walking us through this slide and then al he'll go into the next slide talking about some of the the money and then also the next next steps. And of course, I'll be available for any questions here too. But I'll pass off to to Mike

Mayor and City Council. Mike Loggins, public works director. Uh just to follow up on some of Shane's comments. Council member Cross, uh we actually put this project out to the general public for Seymar. I believe we had 15 different contractors that came in. We went through all the proposals. So it's based on qualifications on how we chose this contractor to start with. Um so we went through that. We did it bring in five to do interviews with. uh we had a panel and that's how we made our decision on will mag to come in as the semar. Uh they also benefit as a semar is we negotiate the profit and overhead and it's an open book. So they go out and they bid their own projects their subs and different things or they can self-perform and you can actually see those and say hey we're going to move forward with them or not. So we can go through that process. So it's not like they can come in and say okay I'm going to double the price in the end. They can't do that. So that that's where we're going to come back with the GMP and we can look through each detail of all that and then make that decision. Do we move forward? Are those the right subs that they're going to use? and then we can bring it back and we bring that GMP to you guys for final approval and we're not asking for that tonight. We're just asking for pre-construction services currently.

Well, to add to it, you've made a great choice. Okay. They're a very good company.

Well, as you can see here, it's a Arizona based company. Over 20 public works seams on vertical construction. Uh significant experience on active campuses. Uh we're currently using them over here on the library uh as one of our projects we're working on. We just used them on the in the water district also for a block wall finished on time on budget. So great experience so far that we've had working with this contractor which helped with some of some of our process. Uh kind of more over on the project costs here. I kind of give you guys an idea what what scope we're talking about here. Uh to give you an idea. Uh currently we're we did the master plan in design that was roughly a $ 1.5 million contract with BWS. Uh we're looking also tonight which will Shane will come back up here shortly to do the project management and construction management looking for approval to move forward with that which EDS has worked with them in the past. Uh so good relationship there. Uh what we're currently on this project we're looking at pre-construction services roughly $300,000 which is less than approximately 1% of the project. Uh that's what we're looking for for our discussion tonight. Possibly could send a general tomorrow. The overall estimated cost for construction with all your furniture, fixtures, everything in there and contingency included um is 42 million and then it overall cost for the project is 45 million. Um looking at a couple funding sources for this project between the public works with HERF money uh to build out because it's housing a lot of the staff down there also with the water district. We're going to have funding from there. We currently have our admin staff here in development services, but we also have our field staff in a building that was for just like fleet a more for storage or warehouse parts and stuff like that. So we want to build them into a building so we can retain those people in the future also. Um so working through that. We'll also have some money from general fund because it is part of fleet services and then we'll be looking at going out to get some loans or grants for this

project to finish it up. So we'll be working through that process. We'll bring that back to you as we get into further phase of this. But right now, we want to get through the pre-construction design services so we know exactly what it we're looking at and get an estimate on what the building would cost when we're ready to build it. So, uh, the pros contract from Wilmag just pre-construction services roughly $300,000 uh scheduled for consent agenda tomorrow on April 21st, 2026, unless you guys direct us otherwise if you want to bring it back in a couple weeks. Um contract terms are ending in August the 1st of 2026 and then this construction contract will be brought to the city as we re the final construction one $40 million one possibly in the end would come back to the city council for approval roughly in about six to nine months when we get through the design period as we go through that. So any questions on this contract? Don't see any.

Okay. Presentation and discussion. Award of contract to elevated design studios management for the public works expansion phase one. Good evening again. Shane, deputy director for public works. Again, excited to talk to you about this project. Um, I'm I'm going to try to be avoid to be repetitive. I have a lot of the same slides in here, but we'll try to hop through those being that you just saw that. Uh, so again, purpose talk about the project manager, construction manager. To this point, I've been serving as the owner rep for the design. Um, I am the deputy director of public works. So, I have a lot of other hats that I wear. So, if you ask why do we need a construction manager, project manager, we don't have a project manager, a construction manager with the city. So that's why we need to outsource u that role. Plus this is a multi-million dollar vertical construction, not just horizontal that public works is used to. So again, this is a whole different animal than a lot of the staff that we have are used to uh with that. So I just wanted to mention mention that plug right from the start. Again, presentation, discussion, your opportunity to ask us uh questions as we move forward. And as Mike just said, we're looking back to back. We don't typically go back to back, but we currently are sort of suspended in the middle of the design because the Seymar and construction manager are very critical at this stage for their estimating as we move from the schematic to to the DD stage um design development stage of this process um to make sure we're on on line with the amount of money that we believe we we could have or get for this project. So, so that's why we're looking to go again back to back on this. Brought this up a few minutes ago with PRA past presentation. So, again, construction manager helped

with with this. Uh, a big part of the construction manager, as you'll see as I get to the get to the scope. Um, is again helping the city support this. uh will be working with our Seymar um on a lot of these same items when it comes to construction. But again, the construction manager serves as the owner rep as in our rep with working with the contractors with the Semar helping us lead those meetings necessary meetings uh when it comes to the execution of this significant uh uh project. So, so again scope uh project for for the project is the same project timeline. I just went through this with you. Um as Mike said, we did solicit for the Seymar. We solicited also for the project manager CM recently. I think we got 12 submitts I believe for uh for construction management. EDS stood out on the top thus met our criteria after scoring you know stood out on the top met our criteria. So they were selected through a competitive um process. PMCM scope of work um as I mentioned provide project management for design and construction through design but then also the next stage when it comes to construction as well where the semar we just talked about is just for the pre-construction stage. They'll we'll come back later as we um go through uh the bidding process for the construction with the Seamar. This contract covers both what we have left with the design as well as construction. And you could read probably faster than I could communicate there. But the big thing there is that fourth one down facilitate those weekly meetings. Again, as I just mentioned, they they serve uh as the owner representative. Um, also I think a big part big role for mom for me

is the third from the bottom oversee all horizontal vertical construction. We're going to we're going to be busy public works staff's going to be busy doing the roles that we need to do with our regular duties. So construction manager will be out there quite often actually being our eyes and ears for us, overseeing the construction for us. Doesn't mean that there will be public works staff out there on occasion. And of course we will be, but they know how to do. They know what to look for. We're going to depend a lot on their expertise to be telling us how things are going and communicating to us uh very carefully and often of how how the project is moving forward. Also, a big role of the construction manager is those last two bullet points, helping us coordinate some of those last things that we need to do. doing a big thing is going to be that furnitureures furniture and fixtures and equipment that we're going to have to be moving from the old one, but then also the new new furniture, getting that all coordinated into our new building. And then also, a lot of owners get very anxious and miss or don't do those proper close out uh steps at the end. So, our construction manager will definitely help us do our diligence, making sure we get the proper close out, making sure we hold the contractor to every specific detail, punch list detail and warranty as we go into warranty period after after the construction process. And I'll jump back to Mike to walk us through this quick slide and then talk about some of the numbers again after this. And again, we'll be open for any other discussions here. Uh, Mayor and Council, uh, just a little bit about EDS Group, our elevated design studio. They're an Arizona based company with over 50 municipal building facilities. Uh, some projects you guys have known in the past was the rodeo grounds they're currently working on with us. Uh, the Dutch Dutchman Dog Park, the city hall generator that's finishing up right now. Um, just a

couple other projects they've been doing. Again, they were out to bid. We picked the most qualified candidates for this, the most comfortable the city felt with them. that have done projects for us that finished on time and within budget. So really need to stay path with all those. This is a large project for us. We got to manage especially those expenses. Uh so here we're proposing a project roughly for their project management is roughly $1.4 million. Uh looking for put it on consent agenda for tomorrow, April 21st. Uh the first portion of this design is really a design review portion. Uh that they come in and review the design with the contractor and the designers to make sure they're following what they need to maybe they have some input they would like to give in as part of that. Also to manage that time frame of the months that we're going to be taking and make sure that the results get back to public works to city management to city council so we can explain to you how it's going with the project. Um the next phase will be the construction management, receiving all those submitts, going through all the different types of concrete, the rebar, reviewing those, approving those, getting through that. This will take place over the next two years. Um but the initial phase of this is roughly 536,000. So we're looking for possible approval on consent agenda tomorrow night or roughly 1.4 million over the next two years for this project to keep continuing forward.

Any questions on this one? Yes. Um, so Mike, this the projected expenses for the pre-construction with Wulmang and and then with Elevated Design, has that that money been is that been approved? Is that part of a capital project for you guys already? Yes, that was ALS that was in both public works her funds for this year funded under the budget approved and also for the water district. We have funds approved for the building also this year. So both both funds. Good. Thank you. Any other questions? Anyone else? Okay. Thank you.

All right. Move on. Presentation discussion on award contract at three elevated design city services expansion project. That one we just covered, right? Different project. Oh, okay. Yeah, I saw the same name. Why I saw this thing? Interesting, isn't it? Yes. Yes.

All right. Well, good evening, mayor, vice mayor, members of council. My name is Trina Harrison. I'm your CIP program manager. Tonight, I am here to present a new contract for your consideration. And it is um right now we're still in the process of master planning the 22 acres that we have down at Ironwood and Horton Drive. And our next step is contracting with an an experienced project management company to provide the design um provide construction management and design management services that have expertise related to police library and parks. So if you remember the project location is down south of Elliot on Ironwood and Horton Drive. So for the description, the project will have a police substation, a branch library, a public park, and a shared maintenance facility that public works and parks will share. And it will also include on-site and off-site improvements that will be determined in the design process, which is not part of this. Well, I mean, it's part of the contract, but not the scope. So for the contract scope of work is the same thing that Shane just covered with you. It was um it's project management services for design and construction. It's going to go all the way through acquiring and pro um procurement of furniture fixtures and equipment closeout process all the way to city staff moving into these facilities. So it's um all the way from the beginning to the end. The request was one qualification, one request for qualifications that was actually released and it included this project as well as a project you just heard from Shane for the public works and water district administration

building. So it was one solicitation and then we split it into two contracts because they're on two completely time different timelines and they're in two different phases of scope right now. Um there was 12 proposals received as Shane had mentioned and Elevated Design Studio LLC was the highest ranked firm out of all of them and they have provided project management services for many city of of Apache Junction projects to date already. And this isn't all of them. This just shows you some of them. So for next steps, city staff recommends that we enter into contract for 2,664,31 with Elevated Design Studio LLC. The contract would be for three years, and it is on the consent agenda for April 21st, tomorrow night, and unless otherwise directed by city council. So, the first portion of the contract for the design review portion would be $869,20 and that covers the um the process going through um the design and then it's we separated out to show you the cost difference between the two pieces for design and construction. Um and Sue Billings is here with us tonight with Elevated Design Studios if you have any questions. Any questions? Nope. Okay.

This is I know this is not a question you can necessarily answer, but since we have design elevated design doing two projects at once, um if they're if they're struggling or something goes wrong on one, are we going to have a problem with them? The second project?

No, they have two different um architects. one is going to be doing public works and one will be doing city services um expansion and then they have um a project manager also internally that will be doing each project separately so there's no crossover um between the directly related staff they do have one gentleman who is um a prior um contract he worked for a contractor and he does a lot he's very experienced with the constru with construction and utilities so he will be doing both projects as far as the utilities portion of it goes. But as far as project management, there's two separate people that will be doing that and they're 100%

separate teams for both of them. It's one one firm. Yeah. Well, it's one team working on each one. Yeah, correct. And council member Hec, I'll just add part of the solicitation or the request for qualifications was for all the people who submitted to show that they had the capacity to take on two very large projects and they still rose to the top of all the other solicitations. Okay. Right. Thank you. Yes. Any other questions?

Um yeah, I have a question. This is more of a curiosity about elevate designs. I mean considering this is a process that we go out for bid, they seem to be winning an awful lot of them. Um I tell me a little bit more about this. I mean is it they're always the cheapest? They're always you know what's what's behind the idea that rodeo grounds, the dog park, the generator, the master plan, the parks recreation administration edition. Now we're going into the the uh the water building and then now you know you see what I'm saying? I mean this I it almost seems like they're just our go-to regardless of who puts in bed. we're just automatically going to give it up to them. And I just want to know a little bit more about that, I suppose. I'm not, you know, I don't necessarily don't mean to put you on the spot, but the whole purpose behind, you know, going out for bids is to always, you know, keep the taxpayers in mind and the money they're spending on these companies that come in and do these projects for us. And if if we're ignoring everything about that, I I I find that a little a little bit um you know, concerning.

If I can just hop in here and give some perspective about that. It's a very fair question. Um most of the projects you see listed in front of you here were fairly small. Um and we could even have Liz come up and share some of her experiences of working with the EDS. But when we went out for the part of the reason we went for RFQ was to get everyone to submit and um well anyone that that wanted to on two very large projects they they're way bigger than these five you see listed. So while we did have a great experience with the EDS or these projects like I said Liz could um give some perspective there. Um the the group of scorers on the on the um RFQ review panel how many of them

there were seven. There were seven scores, seven. Yeah, there were seven people across six departments and one external and Liz was on the panel, but she was one vote and all the rest were other um city department heads and also some outside folks that had no skin in the game, you know, as an independent party and EDS still rose to the top. So, part of it, yes, we have a lot of good experience with them, but they they prove themselves through the procurement process as well. But I Liz, I don't know if you want to hear from Liz about her experience or or her perspective on this very question maybe.

Yeah. And again, I think it's a super fair question and something that we always we also, you know, take that very seriously um talking with city attorney's office in our procurement department to kind of talk about what is the best way of going about procuring these services. So again, while a lot of these were smaller projects and we were able to go through different processes for that, they they have really proven themselves to be a great partner, help it, making sure that we are um you know, spending the city's money as wisely as we can, giving us great advice. But this project, like Matt said, was very separate and we really purposely went out and solicited trying to get multiple uh folks to come in on um this there. For some of these smaller projects, you can do direct select. It's part of the state code. We can look to see qualification, see who we want to go with. If we don't like their pricing if we look around and don't feel like it seems fair, you know, in some of those smaller projects, we would just we could go and ask somebody else. Um, but this is a obviously too much higher projects, higher profile projects. And so we went through that whole process. And I would just say again as being only one of the panel members, um it was a very clear department directors that had never worked with EDS before in reviewing those proposals and all of that

Yeah, it's on. It's on. It's on. It's on. Testing one, two. Okay. See, Doug, just in time, man. Just in time. Two minutes. Two minutes. How many minutes? Okay, great. See, Bryant, low bid. Low bid. Well, that's what we did.

That's what you did. 923. Okay. That's going to be hard for her to She don't have all the slides and stuff unless she has a computer in front of Yep. Oh yeah.

Hey, good for her for trying though. test there. Just test there.

Were you then? Oh, really? Mike's gonna do this. I'm good. We're working on that too next to Well, that's never going to work. That's what the school does and they never get enough. You could That's true. Get puppy. Oh, you think I might have kicked it off?

What? Councilor Oness, are you there? Yes, I am. Oh, I think we still have you muted. So, I think you're connected now. Okay. Thank you. Okay, we're good.

So, congratulations. Yes, sir.

Was that what you show or that this No rattlesnake, Joel. Not a rattlesnake. Oh, can Okay, but we'll get it done. Yeah. Okay. I'll call the meeting back to order. Yep. Excuse me. Okay, Doug. Scared the hell out of myself. My last.

Hello, mayor and council members. I'm Doug Worthkin, the IT director for the city of Apache Junction. I would like to bring forward consideration for approval for CIP26013 conduit and fiber installation, the uh city fiber optic network. So in December of 25, city council rejected all bids for this project. All the bids were over 2.1 million, almost 1 million over budgeted amount of 1.25. Staff made minor project scope adjustments and would like to begin the project in the current budget year. Using an Arizona state cooperative contract allows us to reduce the procurement time frame and still meet the goal. Staff recommendation is to use BPG designs utilizing the Arizona State Cooperative in the amount of 1.281 million scheduled for consent agenda tomorrow night unless otherwise directed by city council. completing the city fiber optic ring at public works down on baseline all the way to Tomahawk and up Tomahawk to Lost Dutchman to the rodeo grounds over to Idaho Road and back down to the library. Tomahawk Road alignment connection to PD training center on the east side and then a joint trench with uh Cox Communications. We reduce cost and be able to have a conduit and pay for materials only from that leg from baseline to Apache Trail on Tomahawk and then rodeo grounds and then also the traffic signals along the way on Ironwood. Any questions?

What all did you have to No. What all did you have to adjust that we ended up cutting almost a million dollars in this item? So, instead of going up Goldfield Road and then the extra uh during the bid process, um it drove the price up with the different questions and things. And then we were able to reduce going to Goldfield and then also um reduce going to superstition the fire department

uh there. The fire department still can come superstition and can come to Tom to Tomahawk and Superstition if they want to add there but we reduce that cost. We also reduced the number of conduits in the trench as well. And then also with going in uh with Cox Cable uh when they went through public works permitting process we gave the opportunity for that and that reduced the cost as well. Thank you very much.

Thank you sir. All right. The next uh from 5 through 10 combine into one aspect presentation discussion resolutions number 2614 2615 2616 2617 268 269. Mike

mayor and council Mike Loggins public works director. Uh so tonight we're going to go over a slids with street light improvement districts here. Um we're going to do a scrier's error. Uh these were approved back in 2023 as you can see here. And what we're doing is going back and it takes three resolutions to pass one slid. So there was two slids that had scrier errors in them. So we're correcting those. And just hold your questions the end because I think I'll be clear once I get through the project here. But the first one uh just going through this resol resolution amending and correcting exhibit A and this resolution from 23-06 which was approved back in March of 21 2023 intention to form a street light improvement district. Um as you can see here the original exhibit uh is right here on your lefth hand side. Um and really what we're talking about tonight is this street light right here. Uh what happened was when this original plat was approved, it included the entire Reverence Road and so it included that street light there. We're going back with this new exhibit uh tonight and we're going to remove that street light so it's no longer no longer there and make it so this legal description for this slid only includes the half street improvements and not the entire road for Reverence Road. Okay. Next one is that the next revolution we had a resolution we had back there was 23-07 passed on the same day March 21st 2023 and it was ordering the installation of these street lights. So this is the process we have to go when we create a slid same exact maps that we had earlier. We have this street light here and full street improvements we removed it. We have half street improvements here. The last step to approving a slid um is adopting the final budget for the street

light improvements. So, exhibit A on this resolution went from the number of street lights were 50. We removed one street light, so now it's 49. Okay, you guys are starting to get the process here. So, the same thing back in November of 21st and 2023, resolution 2323, we had the this slid that was formed, but it did not include the street light. So, the new exhibit now includes that street light. The next uh resolution you passed 2324 on November 21st, 2023 was the ordering the installation of that street light. Again, it was all the street lights, so we have to amend that exhibit. Again, the same thing on these two exhibits where street light wasn't here. We removed it and we're moving forward. The final one was adopting the final budget for the street light improvements. So again, the number of street lights are 23. We're moving to 24. This obviously has some costs. The same number of units of residents it divides it among. So your still costs are the same, but it adds a street light cost also for that year. So in summary for this what we discussed over these six resolutions here what we've really done is this street light here was the original one was not included on this half of the road on reverence. The correction was to remove that street light from the first approval we did the first slid and move it over to the second slid here in this location. So all of this work for these five res or six resolutions was really to recreor correct the exhibit so that it showed the street light in the proper location and the legal descriptions were correct for the slids that we have out there so we can get it to the department of revenue that sends it off to Panal County so that it shows up on the tax bills for those residents so they can pay for those street lights in these two or these subdivisions or these legal

descriptions we have here. So, any questions on these street lights? I just got to know if it was passed in 23 and adopted them. Who was going through this and found that that one little street light was missing? Congratulations for finding that itty bitty detail that uh I I'm just, you know, I can understand why you had to do so many of these because you have to dot every eye, cross every tea, but kudos for whoever found that little street light there.

And I was going to say hats off to Panal County because they're really looking at the legal descriptions for the slides themselves. So that they caught that half road, that full street improvement. I bet you guys will be counting in the future, won't you? Yes, we will be. Mr. Mayor, yes.

If I Mike, can you explain uh how how it works with uh who's paying for which street lights and why it's just that street light and not the other ones? Can you can you explain what when you do a street light improvement district? What lights will uh be paid for under the district versus the residents? So all the all the lights on here are paid for by the residents in these four parcels or these communities in radiance. So 191, 192, 1912 and 13 along collectors and arterial roads. So along this collector Ray and Meridian, the city or the residents of the community here of Apache Junction pay for those because they're for artio roads, they get traffic in and out. They don't receive direct benefit just for these customers in here. So, the customers that live in this community actually pay for these street lights and the cost to turn them on and off at night. The arterial roads are paid for by the entire city rather than just the interior part.

Thank you. Do you have a question? Not anymore, your honor. Okay. And these will become more common practice here. We have several more slids as development keeps continuing down south. Um, but like council member Johnson said, we will be paying quite a bit more attention to exactly where they line up and make sure that they all equal so we're not coming back here for your approval again. Thank you. So, we're doing a will be uh consent. This will be agenda tomorrow night. Tomorrow? Yes, sir. Okay.

All right. I got to turn the page now. Presentation discover discussion on development fee study update. Sydney, good evening, mayor and council. Sydney Arias, development services deputy director. Um, per Arizona state law, all municipalities are required to update and review their development impact fees at least every five years. We're coming up in that time mark next year. Uh we've hired Tisher Bice uh to help with that analysis. Uh I'm here tonight to introduce Ben Griffin who would lead us um through this presentation and discussion.

Right. Mayor, council members, uh it's good to be back in Apache Junction uh for your update to the impact fees. Um it's been a few years uh and I think there are some new faces on the council. So, we'll start off with sort of a development fee 101. Uh, bring everyone, you know, back up to speed. Um, and then we'll look at the project timeline. Um, the land use assumptions, that's going to be the actual development projections, the infrastructure improvements plan. That's going to be your level of service and cost calculations. Uh, and then we'll finish with the proposed development fees, and a comparison to other uh cities and counties in the valley. Uh so development fees uh they're they're one-time payments for growth related infrastructure. Uh they're paid by new development only and uh generally collected when you issue a building permit. Um you cannot use impact fees to fund operations, maintenance, repair, rehab, replacement. Um this needs to be you know new capacity or existing capacity with excess uh available capacity that works really well with water and sewer um which we are not updating in uh in in this study. Um but you know it's important to you know with any impact fee study to remember you know three things. So you have to prove need, benefit and proportionality. Uh so need we're looking at system level improvements. Um, so things like widening an arterial, uh, adding pickle ball courts, um, buying, you know, additional police vehicles. Um, we're not looking for, you know, a project level improvement that only benefits that one development. So, an example would be turn lanes in and out of a new residential subdivision. That's only going to provide a benefit to them. Uh, it's not going to provide a system level benefit. So, things like that we would not include in an impact fee study. Um we also have to prove benefit and benefit has two parts. So there is the geographic benefit uh and so we'll look

at service areas uh in a few slides. Um but there's also the uh the you know spending money in a timely manner. So the fee payer actually receives a benefit um you know within 10 years of paying that fee um you know for the infrastructure that they're funding. Um and we also need to make sure that fees are proportionate to demand. Uh so when we get over to the fee schedules, you'll notice that, you know, there are three different residential fees and it's by, you know, housing unit type. Uh and there are six or seven non-residential fees. Um they're all going to have a different fee for each um fee category. And that's because they have different demand indicators. Um so we want to make sure that we're using, you know, the best available data u to make sure the fees are in fact proportionate to the demand for services. And uh we'll you know we'll talk a lot about level of service but really with level of service you just can't charge future development for a higher level of service than existing development receives. Now that could mean that you issue debt to raise the level of service and that's fine but you can never charge future development for a higher level of service than existing development receives. There are three general methodologies. So a cost recovery approach looks to the past and says, "Hey, we we oversized this and we're going to have futures development buy into that excess capacity." Uh generally there's debt related to that and so essentially you're using the the impact fees to make those debt service payments. Uh the incremental expansion approach uh it looks at today and says this is you know how much infrastructure we provide. So this is you know how many acres of parkland or this is how many lane miles of arterials and then this is the cost associated with that. Um the incremental expansion approach is very flexible. It maintains a level of service. It does

not define specific projects. um which is very helpful if there's a recession or all of a sudden you get a development that you did not anticipate and so you know your actual development pattern deviates from what's included in the study. Um so if you grow faster you generate more fee revenue you build more if you grow slower you generate less fee revenue so you build less. Um whereas a plan-based approach is more rigid because you're defining specific projects. So instead of saying, "Hey, we need some pickle ball courts." You would say, "Hey, we need four pickle ball courts at this specific park." Um, when you do a plan-based approach, uh, generally you have a CIP or master plan that lists out these projects and then we take a look at that and say, "Okay, well, you know, this is existing development share versus this is future development share." Again, making sure that we're not charging future development for a higher level of service than existing development receives. Sorry.

Um,

we also have to look at credits. So, a sight specific credit that's handled after you adopt the fees. So, an easy example would be, you know, if a a developer built a playground in one of your existing parks, that would qualify as a credit because they're building something that is included in the study, a debt service credit or a dedicated revenue credit. Essentially, this is something that we have to include in the study because, you know, we don't want to charge twice for the same improvement. And so, if we include, let's just say, you know, a library uh in the impact fee study, but you're going to issue debt for that library and future development could generate, you know, some sort of tax uh payment to retire that debt, we would be double charging. uh you you will see that um in a few slides where we talk about the uh the library credit, but it's essentially just making sure that we reduce the impact fee to offset those future revenues so we're not double charging. All right. So specific to Arizona, um we have to have three documents. So there is the land use assumptions document. Essentially that's your, you know, development for the next 10 years. Uh the infrastructure improvements plan is the level of service analysis, the costs associated with infrastructure. Those two are basically 10-year documents. Uh you adopt those first and then once you've adopted those um the actual development fee report is a separate adoption process. Um you must update your development fees every five years. Um so you'll see tenure projections but the expectation is you know every at least five years you're updating your development fees. Um there are limitations on certain necessary public services or essentially allowed

infrastructure. Uh so parks you're limited to 30 acres unless they provide a direct benefit. Um you can't include um regional training facilities for public safety if you have more than one station or substation. Uh, and everything has to have a useful life of at least three years to be eligible. All right. So, we kicked this off uh September 15th of last year. Um, earlier this afternoon, we had a stakeholder meeting. Um, we're having a work session and everything else is the plan for right now. Um, so May 4th, we will advertise. um you can't have any public hearings for the first 60 days after advertising. Uh so we'll continue to use that time uh to you know make adjustments with staff as needed. Uh you know if if we receive any comments from you we'll incorporate those. Um but the idea is July 7th we'll have the second stakeholder meeting. We'll have the first official public hearing uh at a council member at a council meeting on July 7th. um you have 30 to 60 days to adopt the land use assumptions and the IIP. Uh so September 1st would fall within that. Um September 14th, you would advertise the development fees, you'll see those tonight. Uh every time you see, you know, this this updated presentation or uh the updated document, you have all three components in there just to make sure it's very transparent. Um, you would have the October 20th public hearing on the development fees, uh, potential adoption December 1st, and then you have to wait at least 75 days for the fees to go into effect. Uh, so if everything went to plan, February 15th, 2027, the new fees would become effective. So, any questions on timeline or methodologies?

All right. So we'll move on to the land use assumptions. Uh this slide shows the residential demand factors. Essentially this is census data and you can see that you know for Apache Junction a single family unit has about two and a half persons per household and then as we move down the table uh to multif family then to mobile home or RV um you have fewer occupants per unit. Um when we are assessing the fees per person uh to make sure that the fees are proportionate to to demand, a single family unit would pay the most and a mobile home or RV unit would pay the least because those units have the the fewest occupants per unit. Uh on the non-residential side, uh these are uh trip generation rates and employment density factors published by the Institute of Transportation Engineers uh in 2025. Basically, it says, hey, we know that different land uses generate different numbers of trips. Uh they have different employment density factors. We use this to make sure the fees are proportionate to demand uh for different land uses. the six, yes, six, uh, gray rows. Those are what you'll see in the fee schedules. Um, so we're we're using those as the proxies for six general land uses. All right. So, for service areas, um, we have a citywide service area for library and police fees. um the auction property um they do not pay park and street fees because the development fee takes care of their park and street improvements outside of the development development fee program. They are still providing parks and street uh improvements. It's just not included as part of this update. The remainder of the city

outside of the auction property will pay parks and street impact fees. All right. So, this just shows 10 years of projected development within the auction property. Um, we're using their master plan, um, which shows buildout of development units one and two equal to about 11,000 housing units. Uh, and so you can see and that the at the end of this 10-year timeline, um, we're looking at just shy of 11,000 housing units. um when we convert that to population using those census factors, um those 11,000 housing units would be about 27,000 people. Um and so if we're looking at a 10-year increase, you know, that's, you know, about 9,000 housing units left uh to develop down there. Uh so that's about 22,000 people in those new housing units over the next 10 years. Um we do the same thing for non-residential development. So buildout um is about 443,000 square ft of non-residential development. Uh it's commercial and office development. Uh development units one and two don't have any industrial or institutional development. Uh later development units include uh those other land uses. All right. for the rest of the city. Um, we use a combination of Maricopa Association of Governments projections, uh, recent permit history and then just discussions with staff. Uh, and so, you know, based on this, you know, uh, this discussion, um, we're looking at about 5,000 additional housing units outside of the auction property over the next 10 years. It's about 12,000 people. um and about 450,000 square ft of non-residential development um which is about 671 jobs. When we combine everything, uh we're looking at a citywide population increase of about 40 34,000 people over the next 10 years. Uh

just shy of 14,000 additional housing units. Um about 900,000 square feet of non-residential floor area, which is about 1,600 additional jobs. So, any questions about the land use assumptions? I have a question. The on this page right here, 2026 base year, which is this year, correct? Am I reading that right? Pop 54,000. That's correct. We are We do not have 54,000 people in this city.

I am glad you brought that up. Uh this represents peak population. Um because you have a a large seasonal population. you have a lot of seasonal housing units. We wanted to make sure that we include those. So, this does represent your your your peak. Um, and so I I am glad you brought that up because it gives us a better idea of, you know, the the actual level of service. Um, because, you know, if if you were a city of 40,000 people, then you have a much higher level of service on, you know, parks and police than you do at 54,000. Gotcha. And then the 2036 is also including our winter visitors.

It does. So in the next 10 years, we are going to assume with all the development going on that we would create less than 40,000 new residents.

Or should I say because we're we're like 42 now. Correct. So, um, with all the development in the next 10 years, you figure we're going to get in over 10 15,000 new residents over the next 10 years. Um, if you if you want to talk about uh families, you know, the children and things to add into that population, that that leaves, you know, a very little margin for the winter visitors. I can tell you our winter visitors make up I would I would think more than 12,000 like as as we sit right now. Agreed. I think we need winter population. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

Yeah. I think we need to re look at Matt and I were just texting on that. That per capita number might be something to look at in this period of 30 days, 60 days we have right now. I heard I think 2.7 Ben, but we'll look at that. Sydney and because I think what we're getting at here is something that deals with the per capita number that we're expecting is a little different than our existing demographic. Sure. I mean, I don't know how how crucial that's a factor. I was just I was just curious on on the number there because I because when I I would assume we were up a little bit more than 12,000 during the winter months.

Seems a little short. Is this excluding the development to the south because they're already This does include uh that that was a citywide number. So this represents um the auction property to the south. This is the remainder of the city and then this is the uh combined citywide total. Okay. So it does it'll be more than that if it's going bit short.

Yeah. And again, I don't know if that it's a huge factor is I mean, or is that just something kind of our baseline to go off of your your population is going to be or does that really change or will that really change the numbers as far as the way the fees are? Great question. Um, so for any of the incremental methodologies, it does not change the fee itself because the incremental methodology says, hey, this is your base year population or your base year employment. Uh, so if you grow by a 100,000 people or you grow by 1,000 people, it it still doesn't change your base year. So I mean if the revenue would would be higher then if you grow faster. Yes.

Sure. Or if these numbers are a little bit low, we're all we're doing is we're looking at a higher revenue base. If correct population numbers are

now on a plan based or cost recovery where we say it's this much infrastructure divided by this much growth. If we're too low, then the fee is wrong. If we're too high, the the fee is wrong. So, because we do have a few plan-based components, if we feel like the 10-year growth projection is a little low, um we should we should adjust that um because we don't want to overcolct or undercolct on revenue. Now, you do update every 5 years. Um, so it is you can adjust this, you know, in five-year increments if you know if if it looks like you're growing faster or slower, but you know, if if we all think that, you know, it's too low right now, then it doesn't hurt just to go ahead and, you know, make that adjustment.

Okay. Thank you.

All right. So, we'll start with libraries. We have a citywide service area. We have just a library facilities component. Um, with libraries, um, I'm going to try not to inundate you with a lot of data. Um, but essentially in the Arizona Act, uh, libraries are limited to 10,000 square feet. So in your current study and now moving to this study, the idea is you need 10,000 square feet to serve the auction property. Now we know there's discussions of, you know, a 15,000 foot, but for the impact fees, we can only consider 10,000. And so, you know, we're we're setting the level of service down there as a 10,000 square foot facility uh for development units one and two. And then we end up using that same level of service, applying it to the remainder of the city. Um, and we make essentially a downward adjustment. And so why I said I don't want to inundate you with data is if you could use all 31,000 square feet of your existing library facilities in that level service calculation, we could justify over 19,000 ft² of additional facilities. since we can't um essentially we're res we're sizing this 10,000 square feet of eligible facilities to buildout. We take that level of service and then we say, well, you know, in your current study, there was no development down there. So, it was very easy to say, all right, here's 10,000 square ft to the total buildout, but you have development there now. And so, you know, there's there's a lot of discussion in the report, but essentially what it's doing is saying if we do 10,000 square feet for that area, we know we've already collected impact fees for the development that exists

down there. So, it's sort of backing out the 1900 square feet of uh uh development fees you've already collected down there. And so, what it's saying is you've got about 8,100 square ft of eligible uh collections down there. We're going to use that level of service, apply it to the remainder of the city, and essentially that means you need about 12,500 square ft of library facilities to serve citywide development over the next 10 years. We also know that you're looking to build this library sooner than 10 years from now. So, we need to include a debt credit u because you will not have the fund balance to pay for it in cash um in the next year or two. Uh so, this just shows the credit of, you know, if the 15,000 foot facility down there costs about 128, we back out the fund balance. We back out a couple years of collections. Uh and then we back out the ineligible share. So the 5,000 additional square feet over the 10,000 cap. Uh and so we're basically whittling it down to say about 4.2 million is essentially the the debt credit that we need to provide and then we're dividing it by, you know, 20 years of growth. That way we make sure we don't double charge. uh because since you're going to collect an impact fee, but you'll also, you know, issue some sort of debt service, we don't want to double dip. So, this is just a way to reduce the proposed fee to offset those future revenue sources. And once we do that, um we can take the cost per portion of the cost per job. We multiply it by the appropriate uh demand

indicator. And so for a single family unit um you know assuming 2.52 persons per housing unit they should pay $714 uh for the proposed library facilities. The current cost is $550. Uh so this does represent an increase but the construction costs have increased. uh you have a similar level of service to last time and so really this is just passing on the construction cost increases to the proposed fee. You will notice industrial office and lodging all have a slight decrease. That's because um the previous study used the 11th edition of it. Now we have the 12th edition. those three land uses have fewer employees per thousand square feet or per lodging room than the previous study. That's why you're seeing a slight decrease there. So, any questions related to libraries? All right, so next up we have parks and wreck. Uh so remember the auction property will not pay uh development fees for parks and wreck because of the development agreement has them fund theirs outside of the development development fee program. Uh so we're looking at three incremental components. So if we maintain the existing level of service uh we need about 31 additional acres of developed parkland to serve development uh outside of the auction property. We need about 34 additional park amenities and about 4 and a half additional miles of trails. Um, with the park land, you have about 2200 existing acres. About 143 of those are developed. Uh, so you have over 2,000

undeveloped acres. So, in discussions with staff, um, we do not recommend a land acquisition component. However, we do recommend a developed parkland component. So, we know that there are certain costs that are, you know, rolled up in, you know, the cost to build a pickle ball court or to add lighting or, you know, to add parking or a ball field. Um, but there are, you know, infrastructure costs that aren't included in that. So, running utilities, um, site work, grading, irrigation, things like that. And so this component is meant to sort of fill that gap um where you may not collect everything by just rolling up you know cost into you know the average cost of amenity. Um and so the idea here is if you have about 143 existing developed acres you maintain that level of service. You need 31 additional and so at 40,000 an acre that's about $1.3 million uh to develop future park land. Uh we do the same thing with existing amenities. So you have 154 uh the value of those existing amenities is about $38 million. Uh so the average cost of an amenity is about $245,000. Again, if we maintain the existing level of service, you need about 34 additional amenities to serve the the next 10 years of growth. Uh and so at $245,000 uh per amenity, that's about $8.2 $2 million generated to construct additional, you know, playgrounds or ball fields. Um, again, it's an incremental methodology, so you're not locked into specific improvements. It just says, you know, if you're already providing certain types of improvements, the expectation is you will continue to uh, you know, expand your inventory of

park amenities, right? Do the same thing for trails. So, if you have about 21 miles of existing trails, you would need about four and a half uh additional miles to maintain the existing level of service. That would generate about $367,000 in development fees. And this shows the proposed fees. Uh so for a single family unit, that's uh just under $2,100. The existing fee is about $1,700. So a slight increase compared to uh the existing fees. All right. Uh we'll move on to police. So this is a city-wide service area. Uh we have three components. So there is a plan-based facilities component. Um the idea here is you're building about 66,000 square ft of police facilities. I'll just jump to the next slide. Um you are replacing some existing animal control facilities. So those are ineligible for development fees. um in discussions with staff, you know, this will likely serve development beyond 10 years. Uh so we are taking um you know, the total of existing and planned facilities and allocating that to your your population and uh non-residential development 20 years out. Uh and so based on that we can justify about 35,000 square feet of the total 66,000 square feet of plan facilities um with development fees. The remaining 23 or so million that's existing development share you know it increases the level of service. So we can't use development fees to fund that. um because we're increasing the level of service because there is you know existing development share uh it's likely you will have to issue debt. So

we are including a debt credit um in case you do uh issue debt. Uh for police vehicles you have 101 vehicles today. Uh so this is meant to not replace existing vehicles but to expand the fleet. So, as uh as a city grows, you hire additional officers, uh you need additional vehicles. Um you would use your impact fees to fund that. And so, you would need about 58 additional vehicles uh to maintain the existing level of service over the next 10 years. Do a similar calculation with police equipment. Uh if you have 201, you would need about 115 additional units over the next 10 years. Um and this shows the proposed fees uh for police. So, your current single family fee is about $1,200 per unit. Uh, the proposed fee is uh $14.49 per unit, right? And streets will be the final component. Um, again, this this fee will not be assessed within the auction property because the development agreement um has them pay for their own street improvements. Um, we have a single component with streets. This is uh street improvements essentially at your arterial and collector grid. Um so if we maintain the existing level of service um you need about 8.1 additional lane miles. Uh so you know if you look at the report there's you know a lot of data to back all this up but essentially what we're doing is we're taking those trip generation rates we're multiplying it by 10 years of projected growth. uh and then we size it to your existing uh street network. You have excess capacity in your network today. So based on AOT traffic counts, we reduce

the excess capacity. Um so that's why you see 165 lane miles but 32 adjusted lane miles. So, we're we're basing the level of service calculation on the used capacity um which does reduce the demand for additional um additional street improvements from 42 lane miles down to about 8.1 over the next 10 years. Um this shows potential street improvements. Um this is not a plan-based approach. This does not say that you have to construct these improvements. um is just using these potential improvements to get an average cost per lane mile. Uh and so based on 106 lane miles of potential improvements with a cost of about $294 million, the average cost of you know these proxy projects is about $2.8 million per lane mile. And we use that in the calculation because if we know how many lane miles you provide um you know per you know vehicle mile of travel um we can just multiply that by that cost per lane mile to come up with your proposed fee. So for a single family unit the current street fee is $3,250. The proposed fee is about $4,800. And you know, this this does reflect, you know, a similar level of service as you had in the previous study. Um, but you you do have a, you know, a much higher street improvement cost. Um, because, as I'm sure you're well aware, it costs a lot more to pave a lane mile of street improvements today than it did, you know, last year, the year before, or even 5 years ago. Um, you know, when you adopted the previous study. This shows the comparison of your proposed residential fees at the top uh

to the current fees in the middle and then the increase uh at the bottom. And then the next slide, this shows non-residential um with non-residential. So industrial, commercial, office, lodging, sorry, industrial, commercial, office, institutional, those are all assessed per square foot of floor area. Lodging is assessed per room and assisted living is assessed per bed. Um again top is the proposed fee, middle is the current fee and uh the the bottom is the difference. And then finally if you squint you can see uh this is a comparison to other cities uh in the valley. um your your proposed fee for the auction property. Um it's increasing about $400 per single family unit. Um for the remainder of the city, um you're going from uh on the non-utility side about $6,700 up to about $9,100 um on the fees that we're updating. Uh if you look all the way to the right, you see, you know, the the utility components with it as well. Um but we did want to show this comparison to you know your neighbors and uh you can see some of those uh 2026 numbers um of your your your neighbors who are currently updating. So um that's going to include Cassagrand Panal County Santan Valley um and Goodyear. I think those are the the ones that are active right now. And that is the final slide. So, I'm here to answer any uh questions or comments. So, for reading that correctly, if I buy an acre and a quarter of property,

turn in my blueprints to build a home, it's going to cost me $25,753 just to get the permit, plus whatever other fees and inspections and everything else for a single family unit. That's correct. assume assuming they hooked to the sewer and they're in the Apache Junction Water District and there wasn't already an existing home there. And if there is an existing home there, what does that mean? If there is an existing home, if there is, I don't believe they pay the development fee because there's already an impact been an impact. So, they don't have to. Yeah. So, like this will not affect Well, how does this affect Home Sweet Home?

So, if there's an existing home there, they don't have to pay anything. Correct. Yeah. You know, let's let's just say it's a fill-in lot somewhere in the city. How does this affect it? Cuz we've been advertising home sweet home is, you know, permit out the door less than a week. Rudy, if there's an existing home, if it's already been there before and it comes off, there's no impact fee. Correct. But if it was a vacant lot, they'd have to Rudy said that's correct. Meaning if there's an existing home and saying if it's, you know, because we can use Home Sweet Home on an empty lot. Correct. If it's so Rudy, Rudy, come on up. Come on up. We gota use the mic.

If a personal land has ever had a home in it, a replacement home would not be charged a development fee. If a vacant lot has never had a home on it, uh the a permit for a new home would incur a development fee even if it's of a home sweet home. Okay. and and assuming they are on the sewer because these are this involves the sewer district and the air Apache Junction water district. This does Arizona water has a whole another system. So, right, I understand that. You know, like where I'm at, it would be a septic system. it wouldn't be sewer.

But so, you know, home sweet home on a on an empty lot is now roughly $28,000 for a permit if if if it's undeveloped land based on what I'm seeing. Correct. Yes, that's right. Yes. Okay, your honor. Yes. I wanted to kind of piggyback on that. What if I had an acre and a quarter of land with a my home on the land and I used home sweet home to build a cassita? It would be charged the multif family fee. I didn't hear

say that again. If if there's already a home on a property and you want to build a cassita under the home sweet home program, it would be charged like a like an apartment unit, which would be the multif family fee, which didn't you just say a minute ago that if the property has been developed before, it's already paid the development fee, right? So, a home sweet home would only be the permit for the home sweet home. There wouldn't be any development fees. Correct.

Right. So now it's it's going from from being a single family lot to to kind of like a multif family lot. What's so under home sweet home, we've been telling customers, I've been telling customers, hey, you can get a you could have a mother-in-law suite, another home put on your property and it's going to be less than $4,000 out of your pocket and you'll have your permit and ready to start building in less than a week. But that's not true. Or is it true? Well, the the plans are ready to go. Yes. Well, we have the plans ready to go,

right? They also have to do is provide the property and the location that you have to approve. Yep. It it meets the setbacks and everything else. But what you're saying now is they're going to have to pay a develop the the you know development fee of a multifamily development. That is my understanding. Then we've not been truthful to our constituents regarding Home Sweet Home. Sydney, is that correct? That's correct. Yes. Maybe Joel help us with that. Just clarify, Mr. Mayor, go ahead. The SW Home sweet home program was even on. Yeah, you have to talk right into it. Okay. You're talking about the uh the already made plans, correct? Correct.

So, yeah. So, and Sydney, correct me if I'm wrong if I'm wrong, but we had a uh an architect create those. Correct. Yes. And and basically, you still have to pay development fees. So this is just why have we not been advertising it that way then?

So a few things to note. The home sweet home program saves uh a potential resident the design costs and the plan review fee uh savings. And so there's there's two savings there. Um regardless if it's uh this program is used on a lot that has been developed or undeveloped. um if it's used for a cassita then it would be charged a multif family uh fee. I think there was a misunderstanding there in your initial question council member cross. So I think that's why there was a that initial confusion there.

And Sydney, how do we view that portion of the fee system that we have versus impact fees and meaning that just in our ability to communicate well what we're doing, we view the impact fees just a little I mean at the staff level a little different. Yes, we we did view that differently and and the way we development services has communicated to staff is th is those two factors we're saving them on uh the city has through the home sweet home program is saving residents through the design fee and the plan review fee. So the information that we have provided residents is accurate. However, there is a caveat. Um I think that to your point, council member Cross, that um if the property has been undeveloped and they're using the home sweet home program as their main residence, then they would be charged a single family fee. If the property has not has already been developed, then they would not be charged uh the fee. However, to vice mayor's uh question, if they're using it as a cassita uh then the home sweet home program through the home sweetie home program, then that cassita would be charged a multifamily fee.

Yeah. How does the home sweet home program work with wastewater and water? Because that's 16,000 of the 25. I want from a proportionality standpoint. Um if Ryan, it would just be dependent on where they're located and if there's um service um required to u to connect to that house. I'm still confused. Yes, I own a home. I have an acre and a quarter. I decide that I want to have a cassita added just because I want some extra space because maybe I'd like to have some private space away from else in my house. So, it's already a developed property, but now you're telling me it's it would be considered undeveloped to put in a cassita on my own property and I'd have to pay this.

Great, great question, CH Council Member Johnson. Um it's not a question whether the property has been developed in in terms of having a cassita. The uh the fee for a multif family unit is then assessed because there's additional load to infrastructure at that point because of the cassita. Why is it multif family? It's the same family. Uh perhaps it is, perhaps it doesn't. state state uh I if I'm if I'm correct Rudy state law no and our ordinance do not no longer require uh them to be related it can be a rental correct that's right

mother-in-law's attached suite right maybe I just want it for myself because I would like to use it as an art studio of my own choice and I would have to pay this development fee as if I was a multifamily because I took a home sweet home in cita and put it on my own property That is correct, Council Member Johnson. And that was actually brought to our attention throughout our last uh financial audit. And so they they've actually made that correction to us. And that that uh uh that's why we are charging now a multifamily fee for um for a cassita, your honor. Yes. Um just just to be fair, have how many home sweet home have you

uh Great question, Vice Mayor. uh less than five um applications have come in and received permits. So were these individuals like blindsided by this? No, they weren't they weren't surprised actually. They were quite grateful that we were providing uh a significant cost savings to them in design and plan review fees. Okay. I was just under the assumption that

a lot of those fees were not associated with it. The whole purpose of it was to make it as cheap as possible. But and and there is a significant cost savings. Like I said, the initial uh estimate in terms of cost savings was about 20 to $25,000. So, we're still saving the uh residents in the of Apache Junction quite a quite a bit of money there. And so, I don't think it was um um uh uh advertised or marketed incorrectly. There was just a caveat. There was just a small asterisk to to that depending on uh whether the lot was developed or not. your honor. Um, this one kind of goes off track, but I thought about this a little a little earlier during the presentation. Um, so the multifamily is a little less than the single family and this is what we're offering to developers. Now, multifamily generally translates into apartments and generally that translates into rentals. So, why are we incenting incentivizing rental properties when we would rather see more homeownership? Vice Mayor, that's a great question. I'm going to have Ben assist with that question, but my initial understanding is the reason that the fee is lower uh is because uh the persons per household for a multif family unit is traditionally lower than a single family home. Uh Ben, can you expand on that?

That's correct. We we have to make sure that the fees are proportionate to demand. And so, uh, you know, if we're not using, uh, you know, vehicle trips or, you know, water wastewater, um, demand factors, we're going to default to persons per household. And on average, they have fewer occupants per unit.

Um, I get that. Like my neighborhood, for example, I have 178 houses in my neighborhood. Had to count them years ago when my kids were trick-or-treating. You get a 300 unit apartment complex. If you want to talk about, you know, more on the infrastructure, you're getting more in this apartment complex than you would a typical because let's just say, okay, maybe you only have one person, less people per apartment unit than you would a house, but everybody's generally probably going to have a car. So, if you have a 300 unit apartment complex, you got 300 cars, if probably more because there might be more than, you know, maybe two people living in the apartment. Um and that would translate to more more on our infrastructure than a 200 um housing unit. That's correct. But if you compared 300 multif family units to 300 single family units, you would generally have more people and more vehicles with those 300 single family units. And I would also imag imagine with the cost difference the difference between the two fees 300 compared to 200 makes up maybe that maybe make up that difference.

You see what you see what I'm saying? I I kind of I understand what you're saying and I think that that math is off because I think with um rental prices being so high, a lot of people are sharing rent, you know, two guys, you know, rent renting an apartment because they can't afford it on their own. We see that all over the state. And so that I mean I think there is two vehicles for almost every single apartment out there.

Great point. Um we have to remember that you know development fees pay for the cost of infrastructure for the lifetime of the unit. Uh so you know an apartment may have two two friends uh in it today. Um but 15 years from now it it may have you know one empty neester. Um, and same same goes for the the single family units. Um, it may initially be purchased by a retired couple, but that doesn't mean that, you know, 5 or 10 years from now, um, they they sell it and a family with four kids moves in. So, you know, it's all about averages and, you know, a point in time. Uh, you know, if you compare these demand factors to the previous study, they're going to be slightly different. Um, and you know, we we only have, you know, the most recent census data available. Um, but it does give us a a point in time snapshot. And, you know, you're going to update this at least every 5 years. Uh, so we can start uh to capture those those trends. And if um you know if housing costs stay high and you have you know more people in multif family units the the census data will will show that uh in you know your next update.

To piggyback on that um Sydney you probably could help us out with this. What's our ratio currently for multifamily to single family? If I saw it correctly, was it like 42 or 45 to 19 or 17? Uh, great question, Council Member Cross. Uh, if I had to put a number on it off top of my head, I would say, uh, multif family probably comprises about 30% of Patchet Junction in comparison to single family currently. Uh, yeah, currently maybe less, maybe 25. I' I'd have to do a really

What's the city's goal for that ratio? Um I I don't have that number off the top of my head, Council Member Cross. I' I'd have to do an analysis um to provide that ratio. Um but typical cities uh as an industry norm, it's about 30%. So we're right where we should be then. Uh we're either close u or we're right there.

Um one other quick deal. Uh can you two different questions I have regarding the difference in the in the fees for commercial versus industrial. Why such a huge um difference in those two fees? And then if you can elaborate for people that aren't here but are listening on the um why or why why we can or cannot have a a graduated fee for these. In other words, if your commercial business is up to this square footage, it's this price and if you go over that, it's that price.

Great question. Uh, so to answer your first question about the difference between industrial and commercial fees, um, generally commercial or retail developments generate more vehicle trips per thousand square feet than industrial developments. So that's why with police and street fees, um, you see that that higher fee for commercial compared to industrial, it's because they're, you know, generating more vehicle trips. Um, on library and parks fees, um, we assess those per job. And so you have a lot more square footage per industrial employee than you do for commercial or retail employees. Uh so the inverse of that is you have more employees more commercial employees per thousand square feet of floor area than you do industrial. Uh and so on library and parks we assess per job. And so the higher employment density related to uh commercial is what's bumping up the industrial fee. Now related to the tiered fees, um there are uh separate demand indicators for size thresholds. Um but it has an inverse relationship with size. So the smaller size developments, smaller uh commercial developments actually generate slightly more vehicle trips than per thousand square feet than the larger, you know, big box size stores. So, if we you did fees by size, which we used to do prior to the recession, um your smaller commercial developments would actually pay more per thousand square foot than larger commercial developments.

And so, we're we're using an average um sort of like we do on, you know, the the residential side where we say, hey, this is, you know, the average of all single family or average of all multif family. Um we're doing that with uh the commercial or retail fees to say this is you know an average of all the different um shopping center retail commercial uses. Um that way we get a a broader um a broader scope on those those commercial fees. But we we could absolutely if you know if council says, "Hey, we would like tiered fees." We can show you um you know like a below 50,000 square foot and then like a 50 to 150 or more.

Are any of the other communities doing that? Not anymore. Thank you.

Anyone else have any questions? Thank you. Thank you. Presentation, discussion of health and human service funding recommendations. Evie,

thank you, your honor. Vice Mayor Schroeder, council members. Um just a quick brief update this year for the um funding applications. We've received eight. We um got applications from four brand new nonprofits we'd not seen before. The commission met on March 9th and at that meeting the applicants were there for an interview. They explained their requests, the services they would provide or not be depending on the funding they received. On March 30th, the commission discussed and voted on their final funding recommendations. Uh the total funding amount for the fiscal year 2627 is $100,000. The total funding requested by the nonprofits is $165,300. And we have the chairman of the commission, Dr. Brennan, here this evening to give a short presentation on those eight applicants and how the commission decided to disperse the funding.

Mayor, vice mayor, council members, this is my last meeting with you all. I have another year that I could have, but I'm going to um engage in some bucket list issues since I turned 78 this summer. So, that's what I'm going to do. At any rate, in light of that, it's not kicking a bucket, is it? No, I'm not going to kick the bucket. All right.

At least that's my intention. I'm going to try and avoid that. So I want to make some um preliminary statements. As heavy said we had only two applicants initially which was glorious for a while very transient but six more showed up and as a consequence what we had was we had a lot of applications that were really pretty vaguely defined and I want to go through that quickly. So going from what they were a new leaf once again under Katha which deals with domestic and sexual vi um violence and abuse wanted $20,000 on the screen. You'll notice that I'm pretty parsimmonious. Uh but other people were a little more generous. Nonetheless, um it was all negotiated and there were actually more than two options because as we got to various options, somebody decided to modify the previous option. So, there were probably more like four or five options to be honest. At any rate, the final sum was $8,000. Uh, a New Leaf says that they uh deal with approximately 50 people that are Apache Junction residents. And let me qualify, every organization that we interviewed was emphatically told that all of these resources are predicated on their use for Apache Junction residents to the best ability that they can do that to discern that. I mean, obviously, you can't card people all the time, but for the most part, that's what was there. So $8,000 was there. Of the 8,000, that is 11% of the population that they serve. They said that they expect to have 50 people out of, I believe, 450

that will be totally dealt with. They deal with some outline communities and as I explained in the past when you deal with sexually abused people on occasion you have to place them at a sequestered site at a geographical distance from their perpetrator and that protects them by geography as well as allows for anonymity and they're able to um engage in things with some reassurance that they won't be discovered. But in my querying them, I was dismayed that they didn't have data on what happens with reoccurrence, etc. And I will give that to Evie, which demonstrates that domestic violence, for example, at a 12 month basis has a 50% reoccurrence. Child sexual abuse on a 12-month basis, 39%. Sexual recidivism lifetime mixed almost 50%. Domestic violence with arrest at two years 38%. Maybe I'll give you this when I'm done. So that essentially is what we recommended after some remarkable negotiation for a new leaf. A new leaf does have some other funds from United Way. They have some um gaylas and other things where they get funding. So I I think that's a pretty substantive sum. They wanted 20,000 initially. They said 13,000 was what they really desperately needed to give some validity to their other funding sources by saying that at least the city of Apache Junction is willing to contribute this much. AJ CDC had requested 7500. I said 6,000. Almost everybody else said

7500. 10,000 was an initial one. And it was settled at 7500. They're pretty much really admired. They're all volunteers, etc. But I was surprised. I had a revelation relative to what they can do. They remediate code violations as well as hazardous environments within the community by removing those hazardous materials, maybe vermin, what have you. However, I didn't know that if they came into the residence and found that there was a problem, they were not allowed to deal with that problem. So if there was a gas leak, if there was a problem with the structure having faulty floors that were less than stable, etc., that was not permissible. I'm rather surprised. I don't understand then what can happen with that and if there's a referral in another direction. The next agency was Azora Vita. They're kind of an interesting organization. They deal with tax preparation. which is of merit and they have a threshold at 69,000 for a family of four. Nonetheless, what they do is they have predominantly facilities in Gilbert and in Mesa. I don't believe they have an actual facility in Apache Junction. They say that they do address people at Apache Junction. And I believe that they told me that they had, let me see if I wrote this down because it they didn't reveal it in their regular stuff. Um that they had um a pretty substantive number of individuals. My concern with that is, as you might expect, that's a seasonal sort

of endeavor. And nonetheless, our investment in these organizations is essentially a quasian annual allocation of funding. And so I had concerns about how disproportionate that really is by comparison because it is a sum that we agreed on of about 4,000. Some people wanted 10 and other, but eventually it was $2,000 because they also have grants by the IRS. They get grants from the um Wells Fargo Bank and from one other organization. It it eludes me at the moment, but that's essentially them. The BGY is blue gold back gold youth football. That too is a very seasonal endeavor and it's composed of youth that are 10 years of age and 13 years of age. And the gentleman that presented it was quite uh quite persuasive, very involved, and wanted to use it as sort of a vehicle to introduce people to dealing with tackle football and integrating into the high school as they went there. He initially wanted 6,000. And interestingly enough, as much as I said four, everybody else said much more. and we came up with seven. Boys and Girls Club, they wanted 30,000. My issue longstanding with Boys and Girls Club as they have about 250 members that attend there. Of those, the vast majority are really from Apache Junction, but in a progression from age

5 to 18, they only have four people that graduate from high school this year. The other issue that they have as a uh a standard for which they try and and aim for is they want an improvement in reading and in mathematics of between four and 5%. I don't understand that metric. Usually what you talk about is someone literate i.e. does someone minimally have a sixth grade reading level? because in medicine that's what you have to write documents in for the them to pass joint commission. And I have to believe that that probably is legally the case that it has to have at least a sixth grade level of of um ability to understand. So I couldn't comprehend whether or not people even met that basic standard with time. They had various funding from the national organization as well as kayas etc. and therefore the funding to that organization was $3,000. Quantis Club Quantis Club came in very last minute and because the individual presenting was previously on the commission, it was very interesting that as much as the requirements for applications are that it's typed, it's based a given way, it defines what your purpose is, etc., it was all handwritten. And I have to admit, as I looked at my own notes over this stuff and my colleagues notes, I was dismayed at how horribly we all write. The only person that had good penmanship was a teacher among us. The nuns that taught me, I'm sure, rolling over in their graves looking at my penmanship. But at any rate, the problem I had with Kuanas was that he made the statement that they had nine people that went to

the rodeo. They introduced him to some participants in the rodeo. They treated him to a meal with those individuals so that they had that very personalized experience. And then he alluded to a very nebulous number of backpacks that had school equipment in it and stuff like that as well as books about predators. But I never had any data about how many individuals were really engaged, what were the end results, did they benefit from that in any meaningful way? And I almost bel labor this cuz I tell you I was overwhelmed with the with the points of reference that you had in the last presentation. That was just amazing. Okay, moving on. The next one was NASCAR. Nazcare is an organization that interestingly was really initially out of Prescat, but they're supposedly in an office in Apache Junction. They're under um Mercy Care. Mercy Care used to only take care of Maricopa County as what's called a behavioral health agency, but they also take care of panel county, Hila County, and um one other beyond Maricopa. So they get resources from that. The initial application was really for um very capital improvements with windows and other structures. And I explained no we don't we don't fund those. And then the individual made the claim that well because of cuts in access that they had various resources limited to them and therefore services would be curtailed. I went on the access line and that's not a fact. But what is a fact is perhaps by the end of the year and with recent other consideration of further

cuts to Medicaid which Arizona has as access per the president to fund the war that that may become a reality. Nonetheless, the decision was made that they would get nothing from us directly that the other funding sources that they have through the reba should sustain them. The last one is the food bank. And the food bank is relatively responsible overall and the only requirement that was imposed by many of the commission was that 45,000 of the 70,500 be allocated solely for the backpack program that deals with weekends and times away from school for kids. And you'll notice, or maybe you didn't get this from Eric, but um Certie gave them an additional $15,000 most recently for that very purpose. But that leaves the other sum for adults, etc. And um I I think that that may or may not be adequate. Um Eric listed that he also gets funding from um the tribal um community at um I think Hila River. But um so that essentially is what we've recommended and I would recommend that you take a look at the negotiation and where the the funds ended up and ask this. I don't think it's unfair to ask that these organizations present you with data that says this is the efficacy of what it is that you were providing us to do and

this is what the end result was. That way you know it's purposeful. It has some merit. Is it going to be 100% successful? Probably not. But you don't know now. You don't know what benefit is derived from the funding that you ascribe to these various organizations and I think that should be a minimum sort of parameter that you have for what it is that you invest in it. Thank you. Any questions?

Yes. got an email just earlier this evening regarding the um Boys and Girls Club Gala and to date they're at around $196,000 and still have funds coming in. So I think the proportion that you're giving from what they requested is spot on. Yeah. I, you know, they have other resources and and probably at times people misconrue that since there's a national organization that they're more endowed than what they really are, but they do have more resources than other agencies.

Well, it and it also shows that our community is already um going above and beyond to to help out our youth and specifically the Boys and Girls Club. So, it's it's a good day as well as yours. Yeah, I I donated a lot. You did your part. I have a question for you. Okay. Um just out of cur and girls youth football league or the black and gold youth football league. Yeah. Um is that in any way uh splintered to AJUSD? I beg your pardon. Is that in any way

to the to the school district? You know, uh, when the gentleman presented it, he implied that there were no resources for those age groups and that the high school was really struggling recruiting teams because of not enough people were engaged in the sport and wanted to continue it, but I'm I took him at his word. I don't I don't really know. Okay. And another curiosity question, the gentleman who spoke for the Kuanas, do you remember his name? Yeah, I do. Could you tell me? I can. His name is Mitchell. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I just we we we had a uh we had an individual that was big part of the Kowanas and but he was very very against this exact thing that we were doing. I was just curious to see if it was him that was coming up to ask for the ask for the money. That's all. I can I can comment on the black and gold football. Yeah, please. um they're not affiliated with the unified school district. They're independent now. They consider themselves a feeder. They because they deal with younger kids and then they train them and they hopefully will go on to play football at the the junior high and high school, but they are

their season is generally eight games and then if they're fortunate, if they win enough, there are three playoff games. Yeah. But that's it. I mean, it's it's it's a grand total of 11 games. Obviously, they've got practice and other things, but if you look at it, it's probably a span of four months. I mean, it's a seasonal event, right? Right. Yeah. They also include the the cheer team, right? Organization. I know because we've had I've had to back some of the kids that couldn't afford to do it because there there is nothing out there for them. They don't go if they don't get funds through this these parents have to come up with everything.

Absolutely. And that was the gentleman's position. He was actually a an individual who because his parents had limited resources that was why he became very invested in this issue, right? It has merit. I mean it really does. The dilemma is that it is limited in scope and when we fund we fund essentially on an annual basis and this is not. That's all. Yeah. Don't Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'm not against giving these kids the I was just curious to see if they were they were didn't take it that way.

So which which ones again did you say that you like didn't get real good information from? Um several of them to be honest. I mean when when you look at the the applications they had

there used to be a provision within them that said what are you going to do with this and how are you going to measure its efficacy and for the longest while I had this ongoing little banter with one organization because I said I'll give you actually what it is that you can tell us because that's an appropriate measure of efficacy to what you do and they've employed that for the most part. So, it's been beneficial in that way. But they don't tell me how many of those interventions they've done. So, I don't know whether or not they've done five or they've done 20 or what have you. And I think that's important for you all to know as well. It's absolutely important because if we're going to give money out, I want to give money out that is we know what it's going for, what it's being used for, and what the outcomes are.

Right? Because if we don't do that, they can spend this money on anything, and we're not going to know. Correct. They can go put new windows in their building after we give it to them, and we already said we don't want to do infrastructure. So, yeah, I have a I have an issue with that. Yeah, I I concur. I I think that that ought to be excuse me well defined and as part of their quarterly report they talk about their progress on meeting those goals. Y okay.

Yeah. I think one was that NASCAR they were originally it looks like they were requesting $62,000 and it was for renovations to their office or whatever. So yeah, I think Brian's right. And I know you folks know that we don't fund bricks and mortar like that. It's not designed for that. So, absolutely. Thank you.

And and I'm always a big fan of the food bank because I think they do make a difference especially in the at risk people. If we can help alleviate a food cost, they can stay in their apartments or their homes. Well, and and the other issue of course is that um we have several events that are transpiring both locally and nationally in which people are out of jobs and other things and this problem will only become greater I think and so it really is a real need. Thank you for your hard work.

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. and bringing up the points of we got to do a better job of finding out how they're using this money and they need to report it to us in the future. Your honor, if I can make a statement. Sure. Each nonprofit is required to submit quarterly reporting to us and administratively in the clerk's office, we do monitor that. We have rejected their funding if they haven't stuck with the exact specifics that they said they were going to pay. Okay. So, we are we are getting reports. Okay. We are. Yes.

Okay. I'm going to say enjoy your other activities that you plan to move on to. Absolutely. Ireland will be a real delight. And I will be right behind you starting to do my own, too. Good for you. Thank you. All right. I'm going to adjourn this meeting. Thank you.