Historic Resources Commission - Regular Meeting

But you and H was way nicer than that. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. So Oh, that's great. Yeah. Wait. Are you waiting for some? You get to wait for Yeah, we don't have four of you. Yeah. Oh, then why didn't the other people come? Because I would have to recuse myself and then we wouldn't

last month. Got it. Right. And okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is gonna happen again next month because I can't be here. No, but I think he should have What's Marilyn schedule? I think Well, she didn't she didn't say that she wouldn't be here. So, it's Marilyn and Chris are here. When is our next meeting? May May 7th. May 7th. Yeah, this one's just seventh. The seventh. Yeah,

no problem. It's before you leave, Jack. Yeah, that's exactly you know exactly what I No, Dan Cruz like Oh, fun. Where are you starting and stoping? Uh down in the south and going north. So start out in Budapest and Nice. Do you end like as far like up to Munich or are you going

Well, it's no get off the It's Paso I think those stuff and then we're going to go to take a bus or something to get into Prague. I've been to all those places. Oh, nice. But nobody else has. So, is your whole family going? No, it's Jan and her her sister and uh her brother-in-law. They're one year apart. They're they are ages. They're number one and two of nine children.

And they none of this phony Irish twin stuff. They're in the same calendar year. One's born in January, the next one's in December. So, they're inseparable friends. And this is That's wonderful.

We're ready. I'll call the meeting to order. This is a regularly scheduled meeting of the historic resource opening. Um, in attendance this evening, John Meyers, myself, the chair, Commissioner Mciny, Commissioner Gerity, Commissioner Tobin, and Aaron Glenn, the deputy planning director, is assisting on the computer. and Christopher Lman, the preservation planner for the city of Albany is in attendance. Um, previously 10 Willlet Street was going to be on the agenda, but that has been removed from the agenda. So, we will and has been deferred to the May 7th HRC meeting. Uh, thus there will be no discussion related to that project at this meeting. Um the u other item on the agenda is 126 State Street. Um we do have a quorum present for that matter and it is a a public hearing agenda item. So, this is in the downtown historic uh district and they're looking for a certificate of appropriateness for the installation of a sign. Um, is there any is there someone here to speak on the the matter? Okay. There you go.

Here's another one. Hello, I'm uh Tom Wheeler with AJ Sign Company. Um so basically what we're looking to do is uh install a blade sign on the front of the Capitol Center. Um

on the State Street side. Uh what I just passed out is a a picture of the blade sign that was installed a few years back on the corner of the Renaissance building. Um the Renaissance sign's actually a little bit taller, the same depth as the sign we're proposing and the illumination is uh exactly the same thing where it's a aluminum face. The letters are cut into the aluminum and then we push acrylic through so you get a little bit of depth during the day and light just comes out the letters at night. So, it's a, you know, only the letters illuminate. It's not a light box. It's a just a a classier, softer lighting than a light box would be. So, that's Yeah, that's the sign we're proposing. Again, 16 in deep. So, that background, none of that background's illuminated, just the letters, the logo. And um so I'm Brandon Stapler with Columbia Development Companies. We've we were uh the development consultant for this project and we also um and I personally worked on the Renaissance Hotel in 20134 when we got the approvals. Um and so I was a little bit familiar with this. I had actually kind of forgotten about it until it got brought back up and I had a conversation with Chris and I think but for the fact that the sign we're proposing is internally illuminated. Um if this was just a a blade sign without any internal illumination or if we had proposed gooseeneck fixtures that externally illuminate the sign um I don't even think this it's something that the my understanding is that the HRC wouldn't even need to weigh in on it. Um, and so just for a little bit of background, kind of going back to why we did this with the Renaissance, the same situation applies here, we we felt that

this was a better solution than providing an exterior externally illuminated sign because if we did external illumination, we'd have to put those gooseenecks or some other sort of light fixture external, which is more holes in the facade of the historic building. And and the other thing it does is it also, you know, lets a lot of light spill out, you know, not hitting the sign and kind of illuminating the whole area, potentially getting in driver's eyes. Um, so, you know, that's why we thought this was a better solution. And again, like Tom said, we didn't want a complete lit box, you know, that is this huge monstrosity and that's putting out a lot of its own light onto other surfaces. We just wanted uh and you know Monica can speak more to this but the convention center authority thinks that it's really important that um this state street presence has been something is something that the convention center authority or the capital center has been lacking being kind of set a block off of State Street and they're very excited about now having a presence on State Street which is very busy and a lot of pedestrians a lot of vehicular traffic and having the blade sign sticking out as opposed to just putting something on the face of the building obviously catches the eye of you know the people walking there people are going to be parking in various locations or maybe walking from the Renaissance or the Hilton Albany and you know we want pedestrians to be able to see where to get into the building and so that's kind of where we're at um and Tom also touched on the size the the sign at the Renaissance um which you know we're very happy with has worked well for us is about 15 feet tall and this one um is proposed at 11 ft. So, we thought that that certainly seemed appropriate.

The lighting is LED as well. Um so, you have that half inch acrylic and the lightning the LED light has to come through that acrylic. So, it's a soft glow. It's not like a a flashlight or a spotlight that shines out driver's eyes. Really, all it does is illuminate the letters so you can see them. It doesn't cast light far at all. And LEDs have a very short throw. So the reason that the planning department sent this proposal to the HRC is primarily because we did determine it to be to fall under our determination of a cabinet style sign being internally illuminated as the code says internally illuminated the kind of internally illuminated sign is not consistent as why it went to you guys. The size of the sign conforms to the rest of the sign code and we don't really regulate you know the design itself which is why it's before you guys now and as in alignment with the when we were initially looking into the approval. Um the rest of the package has already been reviewed and didn't require HRC review which is why it's not before you guys. And then the planning staff's recommendation just involved working with uh us to produce a historically appropriate non-c cabinet sign which AJ signs requested to have it see HRC have a picture of what it looks like at the Renaissance signs there.

Yeah, it does. So it's at an angle there two streets. It's at a 45 degree angle off the corner of the building. Is that illuminated? Exact same thing. I passed out another picture that actually has a little night view on it so you can see what it looks like. This came before the commission several years ago when they were redoing the Renaissance Hotel. I recall discussion about it,

going out on the street looking at the the potential because again an illuminated um blade sign like this is not is abnormal to the code. So it was under review at that time and we found it to be a a very modestly stated appropriate sign for the for the use and it also helped identify the location from two directions and that was it had a lot of benefit associated with it. Um and earlier I recall the renderings that were presented to the commission. Um back there were um banners that were proposed for the old bank building. And certainly the work that you're doing on the bank building is is wonderful that it's being integrated into and becoming part of the uh capital center and giving you a a front door on the street. Um I'm just wondering if this is the only sign option available to you uh in terms of you know providing that kind of visibility is what you're looking for.

Are you talking about the bleed sign being the only option?

Uh no. Um well I mean it was one that kind of my I'm Monica. I'm the executive director of the convention center authority. My my goal was the continuity, right? Like also the Renaissance and people being familiar with the, you know, because we have many of our many of our clients stay at the Renaissance in the Hilton. So having that familiarity of the street, something that was already approved, we knew that only like that signage um was obviously very familiar. But um as far as like the banners go, I think the banners for us um the banners would be a lovely goal. And I actually got my inspiration off of a very similar looking building in New York City that actually hangs the banners between the columns on a temporary basis. Not a full-time basis, but a temporary basis. Um, we haven't gotten to that point yet, so you'll probably see me again at some point in time if I need to come in for that. Um, I'm spending my money right now on other things, right?

Um, but eventually, I think that is the goal. I will say the flags, we do ins we do plan on actually utilizing the flag poles. That's another place for us to do temporary beautiful signage, whether it's the flag of Albany or the flag, you know, us with our logo on it. Um, you know, that's another piece of activation. And it's more about like how to activate eye level, you know, in addition to the courtyard also drawing people's eye. We wanted to make sure the courtyard drew people's eyes as well. Um, and that will be lit, you know, year all the time. So, but as far as the a different type of signage, that wasn't in originally the concept. We just thought it would be more appropriate to probably follow along with what's already on the street. Um,

it's effective for pedestrian traffic. Again, when you're at the either hotel, you can look and you see that projecting off the building. Whereas a flat sign, you really have to be at the building to see it. Again, when you're driving, same situation. You can see that coming up the hill or down the hill. Um whereas the flat side you really have to be in front of the building so it's it's effective. So the sign's going to be um the slide with that red rectangle in your submission. That's where this sign is going to go uh like roughly at the second floor level. Yeah. So right where that little window is. Yep.

Okay. And it will be will it be meant to signal that people enter the courtyard? Is that why the sign like It won't be it won't have any directional. No, but its placement there is that where people that's where people I just don't remember. Is that's where people will be entering the capital center? Just to below the red and to the left that storefront that's there on the right side of that storefront is a door right between um

and then there's the main entrance in the center of the building. But also, if you wrap around the right side of the building, and maybe you remember from when we were here before, we're adding a an accessible entrance into the building on that side, right? Sorry, development. That's what that's what I was thinking you referencing. There's a door right there at the just back from the front facade. That's the accessible entrance into the historic building. So, the placement of the blade is kind of right in between those two main entrances to the historic building. So that's kind of what we thought and the building the the PBA building the troopers building actually abuts the the building so you wouldn't get the same kind of effect. That makes sense.

We're really excited about this. I can't even tell you. Like poor Shannon, our general manager, she just cannot wait. She's out there scooting gravel so it goes faster. We've had um several inquiries and we've already booked large events. So, yeah. So, chop chop. We're also very eager to complete the project. It was a long winter, particularly since they're booking March or events. Yeah, there's no option.

Yeah, it's pretty much a hard stop. If we if we don't finish in time, we owe Monica a lot of money. So, there's no option.

Now, you mentioned the the flag poles. Are those the two projecting Yeah. poles on either side of that main entry door, which they're existing. Yeah. Okay. And they actually the construction guys, there's two lion almost like doornockers but lions with the mouth thing and they were actually able to find the other one that was missing. So we do have that. Okay. They found it buried in the basement somewhere just like in a pile of stuff. And it weighs like 75 pounds or something. It's crazy.

That's why it didn't walk away. Was there any consideration to a different lighting source? Instead of the internally illuminated, having something like the external LED neonation lighting system. Neon's not great. It doesn't light the coal. So, Well, they now make it in an LED shape,

right? Sure. Yeah. And these letters are small enough um that it's you really can't get those bends. Um so this is pushed through. So we we can cut the acrylic uh narrow. And this is a lot of times you'll see a faux neon sign. It's done this way where you take aluminum face and cut a thin groove that push through it a thin piece of acrylic and it looks like neon. So this is a a similar look to that when you're done. Um, this will push through the surface about half an inch. So, it does project. So, it's very similar, but a little bit different. I like the consistency of this sign, this proposed sign, and the one that's already on the corner because to the tourist, it sort of takes that entire upper part of that B block and says there's a a community of interest here and the interest is for tourism and we're not into something that's totally unique, different, even competing. instead says this huge complex that includes the capital sales, the convention center as well as the hotel. And now this it's great having a frontage on State Street. So, I have a question about planning like recommendations because it talks about uh historically appropriate non-c cabinet style sign. Is that meant to be in addition to this sign or instead of

Yeah. So, the go sorry. Yeah. So it would be an approval with conditions to allow them because again we don't regulate the content of the sign or the general construction in terms of like it saying you know all the way capital center with a logo. Um because the sign is currently in like as we had stated what we consider to be a cabinet sign. if they had wanted to flatten it to a blade sign, like a flat blade, or if they had wanted to explore exterior illuminated options, um that would normally conform to the code and would be the way that we would have reviewed it without HRC approval or HRC uh referral.

Um if they had done that without wanting to come to the HRC, which was what the original approval was written for, and I try not to change it up because if we can change it up, then yeah, got it. So, yeah. I think I got it. So it would be conditioning it to come back to have them modify it to be a like external lighting or some sort of not an internally cabinet. So So that's the the issue is the internal illumination of the cabinet. That's the section of the code that

even though it's not like the cabinet it being a cabinet sign or being constructed in that way it explicitly historic but we approved the Renaissance hotel but we did it because it didn't comply with that so that's why the Renaissance hotel was referring this application to the agency got it so again it's so we could make an exception correct to that because like there's cabinet style signs that are like box illuminated that it seems very reasonable we don't want

this feels like the ordinance maybe isn't keeping up with the technology of sign styles. So the yeah it's coming to you all to either make an exception to that or and you can either uphold staff recommendation for approval of conditions or make a determination that so the approval with conditions though is that they can't use the internally illuminated sign that they're proposing. Correct. Yeah. Well, I guess you don't that's just a s Yeah, that's just our recommendation. You I would move to approve it. I agree.

Reading the ordinance, reading the code. Correct. I'm going what the code says. We can go outside the code. Yeah, we we can drift outside. All right. Yeah. So, I'm going to move to Oh, sorry. We do have one person signed up for public comment. Oh, really? from Florida. Florida. He's been joining our commission. He has been. He can't get enough.

Either you can't get rid of him or he can't get rid of all of Lee, are you there? You hear me? There you are. We can. Ah, okay. I can get rid of Albony, but I can't get rid of my colleagues. Good to hear your voice. Good to hear your voice. How's everybody doing?

Good. Good. And how are you, Brandon? I see you still keeping your hands into things. Doing my best. Good. Good. Good, good. Um, I have no problem with the sign. Uh, two things I wanted to um mention. Why the teacup shape for the Albany County um lettering? The logo at the top. Is that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Why? I'm talking about the shape of the Auburn County portion. Looks like a teacup. Yeah.

Yeah. I just want to know why that type of shape. You know, I I really have no problem with it because it's a modern interpretation of a sign. And um it works. So that that was one issue, one question that I had, why that shape. And I was thinking to myself, if you made it a rectangle, it would look more like a cross and it'll sort of sort of like representing a church. It would look like a cross. Oh yeah.

But anyway, um the other thing that I wanted to mention is that um when you attach the sign to the stone, I suggest attaching this attaching the attachments go directly into a stone block rather than a joint and stone because those anchors are so large. ly are larger than a um uh a joint. So if you were to put it through a joint and stone, you have to patch the if it was to be removed, you'd have to patch the joint, then you'd have to patch the stone. So if you just install it right in the middle of a block or somewhere in a block, if you would remove it at a later date, you can just patch the um the stone so it's less noticeable that way. Other than that, I think it's a good project.

Thanks, Lee. Thank you. Thank you, Lee. Aaron, are you not sure if you agree about the placement of the Well, I I just don't know the size of the anchors. I didn't see that in the materials or pay attention to it or the size of the joints. So, you know, I I certainly take Lee's expertise and yeah, input. Um, but I was just looking at the Renaissance Hotel. They are those are like perfectly placed into I think into the joint when you actually can look at it clearly. Yeah,

they're all in. Yeah, I think that was a discussion when we got that. And usually for even with like staff approvals and previous um HRC approvals, there's always a stipulation that they are anchored into the mortar joint because it's easier to repair the mortar joint. Yeah. once removed and there's less chance of like damage and further water due to further water infiltration into the um into stone base. So that Yeah, it's a good point here though because I actually don't know how wide those joints are. So, we'd have to go off field measure adjust our legs

cuz if they, you know, if they're 5/8, I don't know how thick those flags are. Right. Through bolts all the way through. Yeah. I mean, at least half inch. So, yeah, we'll have to look at that and see. Um, so maybe we say if the size of the throughbolt is equal to or less than the thickness of the mortar joint, then it gets installed in the mortar joints. But if it's larger than the mortar joint, then we put it only through the stone so that you don't have to.

Yeah, that sounds good. I guess it runs a little counter to what normal guidance is that we give to applicants, but I think you have, you know, a stone with a with a revealed joint and then we don't know what the mortar joint width is because those rustications are cut into the stone into the stone face. So, it's It's kind of a field judgment thing.

Ever is as you say or as you pointed out if if the anchor is of the diameter of the the width of a mortar joint or less then it should go into the mortar joint. But if it has to if it's much larger than that then it has to be carefully positioned to minimize damage of the stone. and in a manner that is repairable at some point in the future.

I guess I was wondering about shape almost looks like a it could be a sign on a car dealership and that's there might be something else about your your signage or your identity that uses that shape. Um, again, I think what made the Renaissance work as well as it did in our mind was that it was a just a very simple rectangular expression, but I know you're trying to portray a bit of a different image here.

No, I think it's it's more about how it would fit on the size of the sign, right? If you tried to run Albany Capital Center lengthwise, it would be a big 20t tall or so. Yeah. seems like it's a solution to a graphic.

I actually I was just whispering to Brandon. I actually might even tell Tom to lose the logo aspect of it. People tend to and and I say that for two reasons. One, this is a prominent sign and we ever rebrand, then we'd have to change the sign. So if you just kept it, we're never going to change Albany Capital Center. Like that's going to be it's going to still stay the same. So, um I think maybe we would even lose that. Our little our very um uh futuristic New York State that's actually signifies New York State is what that little triangular thing is. Um it's a nod to that.

Uh when they did our branding process, I can see it now that you pointed out. Yeah, it's a very modern It's like a It is right, but it's a very modern futuristic art opinion of what a a flare of New York State is. But anyway, so I mean I think that if the if the content isn't the issue, I think we can work with it to see if maybe we can get the the vertical right to work. Um, you know, we could play around with it a little bit

or I think what I'm hearing from the commission is if that what everyone's saying is a teacup or that trapezoid. If that were just a rectangle, so those two sides were vertical instead of on a little angle. Well, then it would look like a cross. I think you wonder what it looks like. Yeah. Oh, I thought I was hearing that that's what people wanted. I know. I don't Yeah, I think Lee was just adding that in as a Got it. as a comment as an extra. Yeah, but maybe that's why you picked the trapezoid moving back and forth design a little bit and you know the designers came up with this because a little bit of a luck. Yeah,

I was trying to get Tom to reduce his price a little bit. Well, if you removed the logo and shoved the uh made the Albany Capital rectangular and shoved it up to the top of the sign. Um, yeah, it it doesn't look like a cross anymore. It's got a cap on the I don't know what the purpose of the logo is. I find it hard to think of it as a New York City.

Yeah, maybe it looks like a hat. It's so many things. I was not here for that exercise. So, I was Can that section just be like in the future if it's just a piece of acrylic like be removed and replaced with a new logo? Yeah, we can make it so that that top piece could be changeable. That might be a good idea. Make it a pan. I would just keep it out. The Renaissance doesn't have their logo on it. Not that it has not that it has a logo. We have a big fancy R on top. They have a big R. Right. That was the fun part of that.

And honestly, our logo is in the other signage, right? Like it's it's prominent on the other and on the back side of the building for the loading dock. We just have Capital Center. Most people don't know our logo. They don't recognize us by our logo. It's not like we're Hilton or Renaissance, right? Um they know us just by our name, right? Um, so I I wouldn't really have any issue actually just losing the the logo that I'm looking at it straight on for a little bit and and anything it could actually maybe it could increase the font size a little bit so that you know I mean it would be a little bit more visible street number there too or even a small actually that would be good the street number we put 126 there instead

or a small nipple nipper nipper's endangered these We just made a logo a Lego set of Nick bird for a sales conference that we're going to. Uh we actually I was telling Eve about it actually because I know Owen is really big in Oh yeah. Every kid is Yeah. So it's a it's we actually were able to design it and it's a Lego set. That's Nipper. Comes with a pretty box.

Cute. Nip nipper is the only symbol that was elected because the Albany Institute had 50 significant items that said Albany and they included I think they had Bill Kennedy's original typewriter and they had the roof the gave a box that was made from the original capital that was demolished and this one went in and so on and people had to pick which one they liked. to a 50 of them. And the winner was Nipper. And and I say it only half in in Jess that I I worry about Nipper because so many people have invested so heavily in Albany and Zipper and Nipper Town for the the area that we've just it may need some kind of a designation, a local designation to protect it, which means you'd have to do the building, not just Nipper himself. But uh and I I say that seriously because it is it's taken on a a strength and a uniqueness with Albany that

few things have. If you can figure out how I can create a tourism destination out of that, the authority can actually do that work. It's within a mile. I have a mile radius. 50 years ago, we used sturgeons for all kinds of things. Metals and coins and little little silver spoons and they'd have a sturgeon. Al boot a beef, but we diverse. I like that text. Very interesting. Interesting digression.

I'll move to approve this sign as proposed. Second.

Okay. As proposed. I'm just gonna I'm not All right. All those in favor of the motion I I opposed. All right. Motion is carried. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I was only here for 10 minutes. So I can what else is on the seventh agenda? It'll be moved to May. Correct. Is there a way Sorry I'm asking these crazy questions. Is there a way to get information from that meeting if I can't go to the meeting? Um it'll be live streamed. So it'll be available on YouTube that evening or the next day. Cool. How do we get all um if you go on to the city agenda or if you receive a notice, there's a link to like the registration and on that registration page, there's there's information how to get to the YouTube or the city agenda center. Cool. Thank you. I appreciate you so much.

If you go to if you go to the planning department page there, it'll also be on that. Thank you so much. Have a beautiful in Keen or where is it? It's in Durham. Durham. Okay. I was going to say I just got back from Keen a little few days ago. You have to drive through Keen. Well, one way it's pretty cool at the same time. Yeah. Anyway, thank you. Yeah.

Are there any other matters to come before the commission this evening? Um, no. I do not have any updates. No, just a reminder that this meeting was in the middle of the month and the seventh is closer than normal to our next meeting, right? And for all of us to show up so those four people at the church can move forward. I have a conference both Thursday and Friday and they have Yep. I love you all, but I'm not going to drive all the way Thursday and go down super early in that morning. If there wasn't a quorum, I would consider it more more highly. But yeah. Yeah.

Coopertown was in a reasonable drive. Coopertown was more reasonable. Sarin, it's not even like it's in Keysville or Keen. I It's in Sarinac Lake, so it's a little bit. Yeah. Thank you. All right. If there's nothing else to come before the commission. Thank you Lee for your attendance and observations and um I will entertain a motion to adjourn. So moved. Yeah. So moved. Second. All those in favor? I I I I

You already adjourned a while ago.