Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

that hour. Good evening all. Another short agenda for our February 3rd, 2026 planning board meeting. We have one hearing agenda item and one meeting agenda item. I assume Mr. Hershber is here for the hearing agenda item for 135 Ontario Street. Is there anybody else that's here for that? Everybody else's rap room else's rap room. 135 Ontario.

Okay, we're going to talk about 135 Ontario Street first. Want to acknowledge uh my wonderful colleagues here on the planning board. This is probably my last time sitting here with you all. Thank you council good old staff for helping [clears throat] us get through this not necessarily [snorts] t to discuss today but we want to hear it out get through it so Mr. Hersburg. Let's get through it. Take us through uh 135 Ontario which is condition permit demolition review. When we get to that uh Patrick Patrick Chu is the represented by Mr. looking for construction of the two story addition to an existing vacant building to be used as dwelling unit for 34.

Thank you Mr. Chairman. Daniel Hsburg, former Hburg and Hsburg here today representing Upstate General Construction who are the applicant. Uh it's an existing one-story building with a higher portion on a corning corner of uh Ontario Street. Um the plan is to build on [snorts] top of that two more floors and we'll have a total of 34 dwelling units in there. Uh that uh plan would give us a capability of making it a a much better looking building, bring it into compliance with a whole bunch of other issues and make it uh habitable for people that want to live in the 34 units. Uh that's existing additions. These are photos of the existing additions. You see the twotory portion on a corner of quail and a one-story portion uh down um at the that's the center of the building going down the side street. And this one is is from the other end of the building. You can see it's a one-story commercial building which quite honestly has pretty much lived its useful life with it. Uh [clears throat] so the the site plan will be essentially the same building footprint but it will uh shown broken up into units there. Um and uh the uh the number of units is 34 total uh units. Um uh the the the pass plan also had a couple of trees on it. We we had discussed this with um um Jay Lavine, the city arborist, and that's what he suggested we plant here. It's a tight street for for trees because we have a

very narrow sidewalk area. This erosion sedimentation control plan, which is uh important to have there because the building occupies most most of the property. We'll have to use portion of the city street. uh we'll we'll ask traffic engineering to allow us to close a sidewalk while we're working on that portion of it so we can take advantage of that. The uh the next one is this is the first floor plan. It shows the units and the common area. Um the next one is uh um the second floor plan which is pretty much the same. Um, and the third floor plan is also pretty much the same. The elevation views which follow, that's what the building looks like. You can see where the remnants of the one-story commercial building have been cut off to make a nice separation between the existing building and the proposed building.

[snorts] The entire U 135 Quail Street have been entirely refaced and a floor added. And the same uh this is the views from the other directions. By the way, it's not Quail Street. It It's actually Ontario Street. Yeah. Uh that's the rear elevation. That's my mistake. I made up I made up the PowerPoint and I made it quail street. It's not. It's Ontario Street. This is a rear elevation which is visible from the rear yards of adjoining properties. And I think that's pretty much my presentation.

I'm prepared to answer any questions which the board may have. Any questions from the board?

Possibly. Possibly. But we don't have to go in a particular order. If we have some starting questions, we can get going. If not, [clears throat] how many y'all willing to ask questions? So, yes or no? I don't know. I guess that pretty fast, quick, quick, quick, quick. Yeah, I'll probably Okay. So, from us, I have I have two questions. [laughter] You going real fast now. trying to make room for somebody else to ask questions. No, fair enough. Um, parking, what is what is your plan for that with the 34 units?

It is. It looks like the the the light is the lot is very tight. Yeah, there's no space on the lot for any service parking up. But if you go back to the first floor plan, I think it at we don't have any space for any parking. So where you we're relying on on street parking for all our parking spaces. I'm just showing you that we fill up the entire lot. There's no space for putting on. Right. That's pretty tight. Um so your your plan is to have all on street on street parking. Yep. Um the next question I have are these all just going to be one bedrooms because when I see all I saw one I didn't see two.

One bedrooms or studios? I think that's what we call them there. Okay. There's a Y. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Come on up. Oh, I have to come up. Absolutely [laughter] you do. [gasps] There are a couple rules. Okay. [clears throat] Say your name, your address, and you have Okay. Yeah. [laughter]

I'm Felita Friday. I live at 137 Ontario Street. Um, this property abuts me on two sides. Um, and I when I looked at the documents online, I couldn't really tell. I didn't see this. Um, so I I have a lot of concerns obviously. Um, again I live at 137. So parking is my biggest concern. Um, probably because uh on street parking there's like kind of no street parking now. So 34 units. It's quite a bit. Um, also I I I kind of vaguely heard that during construction the sidewalk part of the sidewalk will be closed. I don't I don't know if that's the Bradford side or the Ontario side, but again, my my driveway is like right

literally on the line

on the line. Yeah. For the property. So, that would be a concern to me. Um in the back or the part that is the back of my property. Um we have some concern. We have a a huge tree like on that line. So, when they build the additional stories, this looks like three. I was told there was going to be like four. So, I'm a little happy about that, but um there's some concern with what's going to happen with my tree that's on that line. Like, we we there's literally no space between my property and their property. So, that's also a concern. Um, this is the first meeting I've been to about this. So, I don't know if there's going to be more discussions or um I actually was on the phone with my common council guy who said um find out if they're voting on it tonight or if there's there Okay, great. Um or if there will be more discussions because I'd like to be a part of additional discussions. Is it is it possible to see

oh sorry how Friday 137 Ontario also is it possible to see that slide that showed the what would be the back of our property?

No in the slides it had a it had one showing that it clicked by so fast [clears throat] I barely got chance to see it. Was it the re rear elevation? I think that's what it was. Okay. So, that's what's going to be the back of my property probably. That's something we should talk about. That's it. That's all I have. Um, so I I just like to talk about this more and um and talk more about the impact. Those are a lot of windows into my yard. [laughter] I just want to say that. done. Yeah.

Okay. That the street might be closed. Three minutes. Thank you. Thank you. As we go to staff comments talked about this with staff earlier. Can you Mr. Hsburg? Were you a part of the the other proposal and plan the project that Yeah. Okay. But those kind of collide in this one, right? Yeah.

So there there was another one we improved and I think there was the streets will be no longer Yeah. It's going to get cut off and it's going to be a very big I don't know if you remember um the board condition 13 Ontario Street and then 154 and 134 West Street.

Oh. So just this is it for me. So want you all to put that one in context that there's there's activity in the neighborhood substantial changehood and then they're going to make it off street park part of it off street parking what I just heard you say correct so that helps with the parking in the area but but that's all for new development to be built still sorry no you're good I'll go

so Um if if like we're talking about 130 possibly because off street parking no across 154. Yeah. So the building but the building is not yet built. Correct. So that's what I mean like it's not necessarily alleviating parking. It's there's de there's demand coming. Right. Right. But that will take that I mean it takes off new building [snorts] but doesn't respond to the fact that 34 more units come into this area. Right. Got it. Right. No, I'm I'm on the same like hold on. Okay.

[clears throat] I'm sorry the head all about you.

So this is both the DPR and need this is in the form based district. Um so things get a little um so dwelling multi-unit requires in this zoning district in the regulating plan in zoning district. Um the building is vacant as soon showed us um and most recently was occupied by center for family and youth. So, in doing our parting calculations, we need to confirm exactly what the gross core area was previously um and kind of how we're categorize them at use. Presuming that the applicant will request a waiver, um we need to know exactly what the required option for. Um it's classified as unlisted under seeker for the environmental review. As far as we know, no public funding sources are being sought. So, it doesn't coordinated review with other agencies. Um but eventually a determination will be needed from planning board. It was referred to all kind planning board. Um we received notice back that um it's a little unusual. So I have comments afterwards but the recommendation is that the local fire department should evaluate for public safety emergency service access water availability and any sprinkler system. And that's the recommendation carries different weight for the advisory comments. to advisory as well. Um noting that it's um has zero setback and questions one, two and three um and noting discipline. So with that when the planning board if the [snorts] pling board does make a decision on the applications we need to specifically address the recommendations from all kinds. Um so we just wanted to know in advance

that the suggestions that they've made are always accounted for and built into the review. So the fire department receives all minor development reviews. Um everything's referred to them for their comment. Um so that would address the emergency response. Um department of water and water supply also receives all minor major reviews. So they would be checking for hydrant availability water supply flow questions. Um and that's all built into the review process. It is required to be addressed prior to any recommended approval. Um likewise with the building review building regulatory compliance the building department um you know the building code itself is not the planning department reviews but when a project gets that point that's generally after planning department review um so the actual building code itself is reviewed by our colleers when a building is pulled after planning approval. So when that moment comes um planning specifically address compliance with our um we need further dutation on a few things. Um obviously this is an initial presentation. So we expect more back and forth between planning as well as the other department as well. Um so we need further verification on some of these specific standards the indoor outdoor active recreation um and seeing the laundry facilities on the floor plan itself. Um presumably the mechanical equipment wall be [clears throat] there's nowhere else to put it. So um if that's accurately screened from the ground um we need some more clarification on what exactly is proposed to be removed from

the existing building. you need a sheet I think that shows the removal or demolition um of exactly what portions of the structure and the footage of that to confirm that it doesn't require demolition to do um and as mentioned Alder Ward had pointed out the apartments on the first floor and made conflicting um illustration of that so we need confirmation on what exactly that first floor would look like for the residents as well as any neighbors passing by um as it's not a wholly new construction project. It's building on top of the existing the farm based zoning standards don't really apply because it's not that the baseline is being the same. So any kind of setbacks which again are wonky in the farm base um don't necessarily apply here um as the building does directed by the property line if there's any new or extended encroachments in the rightway. Um we just want to note that obviously in advance of approval. Um and the comment earlier um we want to discuss any recommended screening of those first floor dwellings because those will be you know kind of direct directly abing both the right away and other buildings um properties behind and adjacent to it. Um as Sam mentioned we have already addressed the streets with DGS recommending a reduction. Um so [clears throat] from required to four based on the space available. Um if any lighting is proposed we need to see that as there again are directly abiding properties. U as I mentioned uh BGS has already reviewed the project and signed off on it. Fire department has also approval

yesterday. Yeah, yesterday. Um, engineering provided a comment letter couple weeks ago and water reading on a hard copy of the comments. As of now, um, defer any action on the conditions per comments and address. So, no action. Without objection, we will defer this uh project until such time we get all the reports. Any objections?

Nope. Deferred. Thank you very much. Our second final item bless you [snorts] is 54 rap room which is a demolition review and we'll hear from the shmans who are the applicants.

[clears throat]

So, good evening everyone. Hi. So, I uh let me start with uh I apologize. Uh Henry could not make it. Uh he had a medical emergency last week and he actually spent most of the week in St. Peters. He had a he had a heart attack. So, but but he is home safe, sound, but I I kind of told him you should take this one off. So, I I'm his nephew. I'm Viamonte Sherman. I'm uh on the property as well. and uh I I said that uh I will come and represent us. So let me just start with that. Uh so yeah, here to talk about 54 rap. Um basically to give you a little bit of background, I Henry I believe purchased this property back in 2007 and I was recently brought into this uh to help him address code violations uh in the summer of 2025. and uh [sighs] he was having a lot of difficulty and um I I was brought in. I was added to the property. So now I have an insurable interest. So now we're trying to address this as a team and one of the key things knowing that it's a historical district and it's an historical house. I believe it was built in 1923. Um I had several people take a look at this place. Um, seeing that I was getting involved, I wanted to know kind of, okay, what are we looking at here? And it's my firm belief that this place is gone. It's it's it's sadly um irreparable. And we can go through it, but I will um kind of highlight that. So, one of the big reasoning I had three different site inspections. Uh, one from Kink's Contracting, they're in Laam. Another is the expert environmental and construction group. Uh they're they have offices in Rochester,

Syracuse, uh Albany. They specialize in environmental testing and uh I also have pest control because at least when I first visited the property uh uh I saw rodents running onto the foundation. So, it's like, well, uh, that's probably not good for, uh, this entire neighborhood is obviously if they're all hold up here, they're probably, um, causing problems for neighbors as well. So, I had them take a look. And as it mentions in the in the slide, there was the foundation was compromised. The roof is in certainly bad shape. There's uh been water ingress uh throughout uh the property. um the limited access to it and I honestly felt the floor was structurally unsafe. So I haven't fully been uh inside beyond the kind of foyer area but um you could see holes through the floor into the into the basement and you could see holes into um you could see the sky from from inside. So, uh, definitely significant decay. And talking with these folks, the estimated cost to restore all this, cuz that was where my first thing came in, was more than 200,000. And these figures were uh, generated basically with Kings Contracting and the um, Expert Environmental Group. I kind of had them give me a high, medium, low based off of a,000 foot square a,000 square foot building. And I listed the ranges here. So [snorts] underpinning uh that's probably the less intrusive one, but even that could be multi,000 uh endeavor, full replacement of the foundation, which I, you know, from visual inspection and from what I was told looks like it would need it. Um and all these various kind of um estimates here. I mean, I'm sure we've all kind of tried to repair our

our our residences. We know how this stuff cost. Um, in this economy, things have only gotten more expensive. So, one of the key themes that was coming to my mind was I think the cost of cure to restore this to its glory is probably not worth it. Uh, next slide, please. So again, just kind of we're not talking about just a pure outside, you know, to make this less of a blight on the neighborhood. I mean, this to be livable, um, we would have to fully evacuate the space. Uh, next slide. So, I'll give you examples of the photos. Now, the code violations, I believe, started with um the sighting and the and the ramp. But I I remember when my uncle first brought me in, it was like the the rampant. That's that's what folks are worried about. [laughter] So, uh uh not to be funny, but I just wow. Okay. And uh next slide, please. Uh you could see at the bottom uh the left, that's where rodents were going in and out. Um the cinder blocks are crumbling. It really is probably in danger of falling in on itself at some point if uh um yeah, mold on the uh excuse me, moss on the roof. It really is structurally unsound at this point. Thank you. That's a recent photo there. Uh next slide. I believe I included a few from the interior. So this is kind of peering in the back again. You can see extensive water damage there on the on the right on the left photo on the right side. Uh various debris. Next slide, please.

Oh, sorry. Oh, one back, please.

Yeah. So, this was um Brian, one of the inspectors from Environmental Group. Again, we we got in there, but uh really uh that was about as as far as he felt kind of comfortable going. And you can see in the middle photo, that's open sunlight. And one of the things that was found as part of the demolition review, I had them do an environmental survey and asbestous was found um all throughout the uh the roof. Now, they [snorts] didn't find any with the basement and the interior, but again, they only went in a certain period um just due to safety. I I certainly um did not want anyone to compromise their safety trying to test for something that I figured was there given that the house was built in 1923. Um so one of the things that they had done uh they presented this to the state. They they wanted a variance to uh um take a look at taking this down and the variance was granted back in November which I believe it's active through October. So, no issues with the state, but again, we wanted to address this here. And then there are um I know there were specific questions about debris and and things of that nature. I figured we can kind of if you know we as this process proceeded, I figure that could be more of an open conversation as to uh how we wanted to deal with that. So, I broke this into two phases. The next phase would be okay, what to do with this next if the council decided to take this down. And this is where it got interesting. So given [clears throat] kind of the history of the neighborhood and Henry's history. So uh next slide please. Thank you. There was talk of new residential construction to replace it. But then there was something that and I will admit this is my idea not necessarily Andy's but he's in an agreement and I

kind of wanted to start a conversation about it. uh would be something along the lines of a smallcale mom and pop um plant nursery and garden. And I say this because one I I personally am committed to environmentalism and Albany sustainable goals and I have always been an avid gardener. Henry grew up on Next slide please. Thank you. Henry himself and my family they all migrated from himself. Henry Henry and my father was Willie Sherman. So he was here. He worked for the VA for 50 years. He he left Montgomery in 1952. It was kind of forced out. They my family migrated up here uh for work. Henry was his little brother. He came up here as well. Uh they have extensive uh farming is part of kind of part of their blood. He's had a family garden for years. It's my personal passion. Um, but you know that's all here or there. You we we all know how is this going to work, right? Because you hear plan nursery, you think, wow, that's scary. Uh, but I like to think that I have somewhat of a plan that might make this interesting. It's certainly been uh proven to work in other [clears throat] cities and that's what made it interesting. And again, I will take you through it and then folks can um ask questions and let me know what they think. Um now one of the things was usage. So a plant nursery obviously uh I think I I was told by Anna [clears throat] that one of the key things was the sale. Uh well I think what I had proposed probably fully falls under herbing a agriculture which is a per a conditional permitted

use under this. I in talking with Henry thought well there is an opportunity to do something a little different. Meaning given the historical kind of nature of it, black folks migrating from the south creating something for themselves, their own black neighborhood, it might be interesting to have a blackowned business in there given that this place is vacant. It's been kind of not in use. It's surrounded by property I believe on cross gates on two sides. Three three sides actually uh or sorry two sides is cross gates. There's um residential on the other side but again it's not being in use. It doesn't look like it's going to be in use. There's a house collapsing I believe in lot 60. [clears throat] Um this might be something interesting and new to kind of promote the neighborhood. um but also promote black ownership, something also important to me. And also give Henry a very limited income. He is a retired senior. So, I the difference between kind of doing this for fun and then maybe doing this for a limited um or at least having it be green lit um by the planning board is I feel if it's similar to like a mom or a mom and pop sourdough operation where someone's selling sourdough out off of their porch, uh that hits a little this would hit a little different if it's I I would say sanctioned so much. Um it's actual business. It makes makes it real. Um next slide. So I kind of broken this into phases. Uh one would be uh again nothing nothing a rush. Um if the building if we are allowed to kind of move forward with demolition um that in itself will take some time and then um

but I figured this could be operational maybe by 2020 at the latest late 20 late 2027 early 2028. Uh so I broke into phases. Phase one was again kind of what we're starting here the conversation permitting. Um, one of the beautiful things about the site, which we'll get addressed later, is it already is clear. There's not really anything there besides um the house. Um, trees have been moved. Uh, it is kind of prime for growing. So, uh, that is one of the was one of the exciting factors I I think for me. Uh, next slide, please. Again, um phase two would probably be somewhat next year. And again, this could probably speed up uh based off of uh this discussion, but initial planting, maybe a greenhouse or two. I um wanted to I'm a project manager by trade, so part of me wanted to give as much padding as possible to to get this stuff um kind of up and running, but again, I think this could be a very short turnaround. Uh next slide, please. So, one of the things [clears throat] obviously there's history here, there's people living here. I wanted to kind of address this full out. I I will say this, we're certainly not trying to be nuisance or pain in the butt for anyone who's trying to raise a family there. Um so I was really thinking going from a standpoint keep [clears throat] it small. It's an acre lot. You could allocate half of this to that. The rest could be um just open land. It really wouldn't have to be some massive operation. um limit permanent structures. Um again,

one [clears throat] of the things is that I like about this plan is if in the future we wanted to reverse course and build a house there, you can none none of this could be none of this has to be permanent. Uh it certainly could be things that can move again temporary setups. If something is seen to be a problem, it can certainly be moved. low intensity. Uh again, not wholesale, not large scale retail. And one of the key things that okay, how to keep traffic low, how to keep it reasonable, how not to block this road, how not to inconvenience uh neighbors. Um you can make it direct to consumer, you can have it appointment only, show up on weekends to to get your product. All of this really could be managed online. And there's various examples of this being successful. Next slide, please. And again, and with that, there's no large delivery trucks, there's not every machinery, you don't have to compost there, right? So, no odors. If there is um you know, parking could be necessary, but again, there's enough space here to designate five, six slots and have it not be um something that blocks the road or inconveniences neighbors uh at all. Uh the the owners, we live here. I live in Colony, Albany, excuse me, I live in Colony. Um Henry lives in Albany on Southern Boulevard. So it's not like [music] it's not like these would be um you know some out oftowners here. We live here. This is our community and um basically yeah minimal sight disturbance. Again it is a historical district but it's also the pine hills. So for me I I would focus on native drought towering plants things that are

local. I was inspired by the soulfire farm. Salt. So, sorry. Thank you.

Um, I volunteered at the Radic Center. I I go to events there. That was somewhat of a inspiration for me. Uh, next slide, please. Thank you. And again, uh, there are ways to kind of restrict this to make sure this doesn't get out of control. And I think I had mentioned on a previous slide, um I'm certainly not asking the planning board to make a decision that alters this permanently for some um weird use to change the neighborhood. I certainly don't want, right? Like you can limit inventory or sales. Um doesn't have to be a sign. You could there's enough land to landscape this so maybe you wouldn't even see the operations. it wouldn't be kind of anything other than folks showing up to pick up their stuff and leave. And there are examples uh in Austin, Portland, Asheville. There's more, but I figured those were so the the the codes there, those are all residential single family use neighborhoods where this was allowed and it's worked out. Those are all there. So, um happy to provide more details on that, but essentially I I just wanted to list a couple off the top. There is precedence precedents for this. Uh, next slide, which I believe is some photos of the lot. So, this is what I mean. It's open. There's nothing here. Uh, it's clear there wouldn't be massive construction. Uh, to me, I look at this and I see, wow, uh, this this could be used for something great. Um, you know, instead of building town houses or condos, this could be something interesting. But basically that's uh all I really wanted to say. I'm certainly uh open for questions and uh and comments and um

thank you you know very much for for your time. Any questions from board members? I think I prefer to public comment questions. Sure. All right. Some public comments. Uh Cara, are you here? She's not. No. Okay. Comment.

Okay. I see. I know Stephanie and Mike are here. Daniel, that would be me. All right, so let's go. Stephanie, good night. And Daniel, thank you. We could probably all come [clears throat] up together. Oh, yeah. Getting done. Come on, let's go.

Good evening. Um, my name is Stephanie Woodard. I'm the president of the Rap Road Historical Association. Um, we were truly saddened when we found out that there was a a request to demolish 54 Rap Road and then have it create recreated as commercial property. The mission of the Rap Road Historical Association is to to preserve the integrity of the Rap Road Historic District. These properties are integral part of a national and a state history because they represent the original families who settled on rapro during the great migration in the early 1930s. We are concerned that the proposal like this will set a precedent for other new owners. However, it is our sincerest hope that we will continue to strengthen our community partnerships, including those who live in the historic district, and we will work together to prevent commercial development, and continue to spread the word about the Rap Road Historic District. The Rapro Historical Association opposed this demolition request and to rebuild as commercial property to protect. We are willing to move forward from the perspective of any changes to the existing property should be restorative in nature or a home built on the property. We understand that this may not be attainable as the Rapro Historical Association is contemplating what to do with six pieces of property

that we currently own within the historic district. a proposal in which we are still working through on how to develop a community interactive garden on Rap Road as an inspiration and reme in remembrance of those who established the district. The Rapro Historical Association would consider partnering with the landscaping business in the future as a public private partnership. public being what we would be interested in doing, not commercial property. This could include services to the rapro community that will help maintain the properties and therefore help preserve the history. Our families know what can be built, uh, what can be planted in what we consider sand. So, we have that experience. This is not our first time having to address commercial development in the historic district. We did so with the Pyramid Group when they wanted to build Crossgates Mall in 1980s, I'm sorry, in the 1970s. I think we also worked with Daughters of Sarah in 2013 when they wanted to demolish Brother Wilbourne and Francis Parson House in which they wind up retracting their request to demolish that home, but instead create an easement so they can maintain green space and an egress behind daughter Ceer. and they sold the house to a family who then restored it back to the original develop the

original structure and that home sat for a very long time before this occurred. We've worked with pyramid um pyramid group pyramid management group when they developed 250 apartments on the end of wrap road in order to mitigate the traffic that would come through as a result of their residents. That was the most recent that we did. And most importantly, we had 59 rapro that had cinder blocks as interior walls restored. And the family who purchased that home worked with brother Lebar Johnson's family. And brother Lebar lived in that home until he was a hundred years old and went into the hospital and passed away. So, we know what it means to be partners with everyone in the historic district and we understand that there will be change in the historic district. However, the Rapro Historical Association would hope that we could work with everyone who would like to demolish a home and rebuild a home. What we will oppose vehemently will any resoning for commercial property whether it's small mom and pop we will not allow reszoning we will do all we can so that there's no reasonzoning for commercial development and that's the statement from the rapro historical association board and officers

[clears throat]

Uh, I'm Michael O'Brien. I uh serve on the board of the rapro historical association and I used to be the board council member which is how I became acquainted with the work of the rapro historical association which I think is an outstanding example of continuing a beautiful legacy bringing it into uh formation of a historical district as both the state and federal historical district and uh the board has been working to uh well to to obtain properties and pyramid and we're working to raise raise money to uh continue a plan that would be a a remembrance of the legacy of all the people that created Rap Road back in the 1920s and 30s. My main point coming down was I had a statement that Hyde Clark gave us. It was the criterion for considering uh what we would have to consider before a demolition and that is consistent with the neighborhood or district plans and whether the loss of the building would be detrimental to the historical architecture of the neighborhood and the relationship of uh of that property 54 number 54 to the continued character [clears throat and cough] of the neighborhood. But my understanding is that Hyde today submitted that to you. Uh so uh I just as a person who grew up as an outsider to Rap Rap Road, it was my experience as a council member that acquainted me with it and I was struck with the with the great legacy and the people that are working without a lot of big funding. It's strictly a a small operation, but what they've done, I think, is marvelous. And I think that any

decisions that this board makes should be in deference to the great efforts that are being made in historical preservation to the legacy of Rap Road.

Hi, I'm Danielle Gillespie. I'm the county legislator. Um, and this is in my district that I serve. I'm also fortunate to be a member of the Rap Road Historical Association and um if you look at the history of the Rap Road Historical Association, commercial development has been consistently encroaching upon it. As we celebrate Black History Month, it's important that we remember the legacy and the sacrifices of those that migrated from the South and they came to the state of New York and they did something great. They acquired property. They built it up with their own hands. They farmed and they managed the land. Now, I'm pretty sure the Rap Road Association, as a member myself, we're not afraid of moving into the 21st century, but we want it to be done in a way that preserves the legacy of the great migration. It's a unique development and it's in the pine bush, right? And then we need to continue to focus on this legacy and we need to preserve it. Uh recently I was fortunate enough to do the walking tour which happened this past summer and we were able to walk through and we were transported back into the 1920s and the 1930s. We saw the smokehouse. We heard the stories. It was a self-sufficient community and any additional development or the reszoning of properties within that historical district compromises its integrity and it's detrimental to the legacy and we will not have this gym in the city of Albany to teach our students about. So it's important that we continue to preserve we factor we take it into consideration. There are some concerns. Rap Road is pretty narrow. Even if you do um if you open up a nursery, if this were to go through, people would still have to come in and there is no way that

they could come through without creating a burden for the residents that live there. Plus, there are other nurseries, smaller nurseries in the area on Western Avenue, on Central A. They could be competing with big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe's, which is in close proximity if you're driving. So, those are all things that should be taken into consideration. It's about preserving legacy and not creating an inconvenience to those that live and chose to live in that area partly because it was a historical district. Thank you. Um, for the record, could each of you just again say your name and address?

Sure. Stephanie Woodard. I'm at 544 Morris Street in Albany. Danielle Gillespie 3 Pitch Pine. I live in that area. I routinely walk in. I'm also the county legislator that represents the 12. And I'm Mike O'Brien. I live at 33 Dano Avenue. Thank you.

Board. Can I ask the planning board, have you ever done the tour? Have you done the walking tour of the Rap Road Historical District and heard some of the narratives? I have not, but I'm very familiar with the know several folks out there, have been out there multiple times.

I'm full disclosure, I am on the historic Albony Foundation board. I work for the state historic state parks recreation and historic preservation office and so I'm very familiar with rap road and and uh when I first moved to Albany from Mississippi I actually went to a viewing of um I don't know if it was officially a documentary but I went to a rap road event at what is now the black chamber of commerce not done a walking tour but familiar

then also I would have some concerns regarding the irrigation because I know he one of the ideas that's being floated is to make it a nursery and I don't know what that would do to the water supply for those folks that live in that area if that would decrease I don't know what type of irrigation system I know there's no parking I know that there's also some traffic concerns because there's been accidents along Washington a extension sometimes coming off wrap road people don't necessarily move in the right direction so you could have an increased likelihood of more accidents. There's also pedestrians. There's no sidewalks. So, again, this wouldn't be a normal everyday. Sorry. This wouldn't be a normal

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. It's not part of this. I'm sorry. We don't do exchange. And I gave you a little grace because you are county led. So, we we we do that for electives. We get ready to go sideways. Oh, no. No. Never intend [laughter]

respectful discourse. Sorry about that. So, we do have um comments from staff on this for most of us on this board and our first road deal with a sensitive property where we're trying to uh you know get through one set of plans and another set of expectations. So, we'll go through the process, allow everybody to speak their peace and, you know, work with our very capable staff and and make a decision as a board. I'm not everything is not on the table for tonight. This is the first time it's been before the board. So, um we're all learning and listening right now to say this.

Quick question before we get a comment. So, the application before us is purely the demolition. any future use such as agricultural urban user [clears throat] which I see as a conditional use would come back before the board because it require several separate review correct

correct [clears throat] review whe consideration, but it's not specifically what's going on. The We've seen a lot of properties in our day that one day looked like it was ready to pass muster. started big red X on it and it look it's in pretty bad and I'm sure it's better days. So as we deliberate understand that the house is not very memorial you may need to come down. So, uh, we're very sensitive to the whole the whole the whole kick. We understand and but I need us to also understand that might need to make a move. So, let's hear from staff and then figure out where we need to go.

All right. A lot of it is stuff we covered or discussed, but for the record outline um and was mentioned higher did provide a comment letter um this afternoon which I provided as well which does go through those criteria under standards which are also included in the staff report we got last week. Um as you've seen it has there now and is just under an acre. The property is known R1L where nursery is not use I don't know if that's accurate that it was constructed in 1923

it was later my great uncle lived there so I know it was later but as mentioned by added last spring um The demolition would be considered an action under environmental review, but obviously it wouldn't require coordinated review. It would just be determination by um and it did not meet.

Um obviously we discussed it's located in the community district which state and national register historic places. That's not local. planning board, not the resources [snorts] commission. Um difference between those two and we understand historical association that there's not a current interest to be listed. The district was established in 2002. So it's less about the structures itself more about and the history of that live there. Um so it's associated with events that need significant contribution to the patterns of history and property associated significant impact. So in the original designation there were 27 lots homes and two modern homes for lots two of which previously had homes that were demolished prior to the listing. Um I won't read it out loud but the nomination included a description of the people on road history and at that time at the time the home and the original family obviously not [snorts] so use um you know plant nursery would likely be our definition of nursery in the code which is an use in the R1 Um um and I think it's time I just want to say for the record there's there's no reasonzoning proposal or amendment before us. We don't one and that's not expected where that came from but just want to record there's no reasoning it's just apparently I think the question is obviously future and when um

you know of the nine criteria for demolition review includes any alternatives to demolition. So preserving the structure, filling the building or donating it or different reuse. Um you know primarily we looked at the cost of rehabing it or redeveloping it. Um and that's what was provided as alter not being a viable option. Um obviously we saw number of photos of the condition of property. Um the building department has on record at least nine years of agency longer than that. Um and so it's obviously deteriorated throughout that time. The criteria also includes a question of hardship um likely created hardship as there's no indication in the 17 years 19 years that the properties owned. Um so in condition um so we didn't include the recommended action. Um we did meet historical association last week and had a conversation like benefit conversation between applicants and historical association. [clears throat] Um so that's something wanted to you know recommend that the But certainly for that other applications I do have a question of the applicant um if that's okay.

Okay. No, just because we're in a different stage. That's so my question is what is the condition of it now? Because when looking at the photos, it looks like that's those photos occurred when there was no snow, no storm, no [clears throat] other all these other things that are happening. Have you been out there recently to see whether or not? Because if you're looking I would assume if you on a bright day with no weather and you're looking at the sky from the inside that there may be a um possibility of the the the snow and everything being too heavy and that's collapsing the

ma'am. Uh so uh those photos were all from this summer. Uh I was uh I got involved in April. Um though as we were working through the code violations uh those photos are all from June July of this year. Uh I did include uh one u I believe one or two photos from as of um was it last week when the snow fell and when I put up the signage for this. So uh I have the last time I was out there was when I put up the signage for this. So, which I believe was a day or two before um all the snow that has come. I have not uh been out there since mostly because I've been helping Henry and St. Peters. So, uh uh I certainly hope it hasn't collapsed [laughter] um because that doesn't benefit anyone. But uh yeah, years and years of weather beating on this place has not done any favors. And I was told by again the people that I had hired to take a look at this um it's only a matter of time before something negative does. Does that answer your question?

It it it does. Can I ask a question also of the applicant? Sure. Um, have you had any issues like we always like to use the phrase, you know, an attractive nuisance. Have you had issues with kids or anyone breaking in or just other sort of safety issues? Uh, yes ma'am. There was ev evidence of uh I guess I I found like beer cans. I found stuff like that kind of surveying the the property. So there certainly has been activity there. Wouldn't want this to trigger liability actions. you know, some kid poor kids uh do kids do silly things. Certainly wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.

Um and again, I I I kind of don't want any part of that. I wouldn't sleep well if someone did get hurt trespassing here. There are various signs listed like no trespassing and things of that nature, but there have been evidence of of of kind of folks being trespassed. Anybody else? Just make sure you get it. Go ahead. [laughter] Most of my questions aren't really I don't know comments. You have comments? [laughter]

And we're here to answer questions, too. I work with Mr. Sherman when he bought the property and that property looked exactly the way it looked back in 2007. It was in poor condition when they purchased it. Yeah. My Sorry, ma'am. My my understanding was it has gone from bad to worse. [snorts] Oh, absolutely. After over 17 years. Yes. Absolutely. But it was never in any condition for like even to renovate. It was it was pretty bad. [clears throat]

All right. I I have two I have two two questions. Um one question for the the folks who commented. So would do you oppose the demolition or you oppose the proposed plans for we we we oppose the second what's going to happen with the property. Mr. Sherman came to the Rapper Historical Association when him and his wife had first purchased the property. their intent was to rebuild. Um, but however, it they didn't get to that point. They had to rebuild because the house at that point was inhabitable and because of inflation since 2007, of course, is going to be $200,000 at this point.

We have property right now on Rap Road that is up for sale all the time. And even the ones that are in, as I said, brother Labor's house was I don't we to this day, we don't know how he lived and functioned in his home, but yet again, he also was the person who built his home. And we have had people come and re rehab the homes when they purchased them. Unfortunately, when Mr. and Mrs. Sherman purchased this property, it was never, as far as I could see, and I was in the house. I went in back then you could see down to the basement. Um the roof was still intact but you could see there was holes in the floor. So even at that point in time to rehab this property was it wasn't it wasn't it was it had to come down. What our main concern is that as more development happens, as Danielle said in that historic district, our property value goes up as anything would go up. So, is it true that if you want to develop this uh a a garden a garden environment, of course, we're not opposed to that because we want to do a garden and we have six pieces of property and we have a house that will probably be coming in before the board to seek demolition because we understand that at some point in time the houses they have to come down if they're not if they're not safe. Our main concern is what the integrity of the historic district is. Anna's right. We are not part of the local historic. And there's a reason for that because when these people left the south, particularly from Shabuda, Mississippi, in which the last hanging was done in the mid 1960s,

they had no intention to turn their homes over to people or the unknown where they could not do what they wanted to do with their own property. That was that's some that's, you know, a big deal. And you can only pressure or talk to people to a certain extent who harbor this understanding that if I if I have no control over my property, what will happen to my children? What will happen to my legacy? Where can I get that quick money if I wanted to sell my property? You know, that that was a big conversation within the historical association at the time it was created. That's why we worked with pyramid to ensure that the integrity around that whole entire district remains intact. When the city wanted to put sidewalks, we said that that will change the integrity of that whole entire district. I was I had the opportunity to go to Shabu, Mississippi as a child, but I went back as an adult last year. And when me and my sister drove through Shabuda and saw those pine trees and we smelt them and my sister lives on Old East State Road, we said, "This is the pine bush. This is Albany." Now we see why so many people when they said, "We're going to the promised land," they meant we're going home. This was the only environment these people had when they came to Albany when they were living on the south end during the depression. So, we're not opposed to change. We work with everyone. We work with the Pine Bush Commission. We work with Historic Albany Foundation. We work with all historic and preservation partners. But what we will not and we have to speak up

when anybody wants to put in a business big or small we have to speak up because if we don't do that that whole district will be erased and the only thing will be out there is that little brown sign. That will be it. If you ever been to Boston and did the abolition trail you don't see anything. You see little signs and you have to look on the ground because it the history becomes erase. So there's more to just, you know, what do we we're going to demolish? Of course you I mean it it's inevitable, but we're totally opposed to any commercial, big or small. We're we're

so do this is only demo, right? Yeah. We don't have anything else in front of us at this moment. Just a demo. Uh if the board is comfortable, we can he can act on demo or defer. Sorry. Go ahead. I just want to say I if if I may, please. There no plans for commercial application. I am not ever I can say this unequivocally will ever try to change the zone. Well, don't don't worry because if you do, they'll all be sitting here. This is just a little bit of

better just doing [laughter] if if I may. It ths me in my last meeting here.

You seem like you have your own connection to that neighborhood. And um I would I would think I would think Sister Ward's comments seem extremely rational and we don't necessarily deal with rational people in these meetings. [laughter] Okay. Um, I think there's a conversation over a cup of coffee that y'all might be able to figure out what to do and it could accelerate the enhanced legacy of the entire thing. There seems like there's some steps that folks are trying to take together where you can be a pioneer and help because you're you're trying to do something. I think everybody can agree that we know the house probably needs to come down, right? I think we're I think everybody's in good conscious there. That next part is critical. And I think, you know, she'd be sharp enough to put the two minds together and figure out something innovative that that makes sense for that that deep legacy that she just discussed cuz it's a lot of folk being here.

No, no, for sure. And I I will say this, I I'm one of the names on that. I'm not, you know, and um I'm more than willing to have that com because for me I I think trying to make this functional and usable. I mean that that's one of the things one of the comments that struck me earlier is yeah I mean uh I'm not trying to be those not trying to be you. It's I have problems with places like that. Like again um there there many types of businesses and you have to look at the I guess the goals and motivations of those who are in charge. I mean there's making money but then there's also this could be a teaching element. This could be coaching the same way that I learned how to do all this stuff. I certainly would love to have that um be part of my legacy. Um but at the same time similar to what was mentioned earlier there is an element of folks telling people what to do with their stuff that is also in failure and it is private property and I understand that it is a historical district but there's probably a certain degree any property owner is going to tolerate um outside commentary on what gets done is provided that it's allowed in the district. So I'm saying that representing Henry's perspective. I'm probably a little bit I'm I'm just gonna be frank. I'm probably significantly more flexible and I'm new to this. I don't have the history. I wasn't there when it was bought. I'm new this whole operation. So, um but I do have to kind of speak up for Henry. He has his goals, motivations, and wants and desires as well. So, yeah, I I'm happy to have this combo with everyone involved.

Good for for tonight. I know you can concern yourself with the mission and uh

and this is just Rapro Historical Association. When I reached out to the people that lived in the district, had they been notified about this meeting and the demolition, they had not. So we would be remissed if we think we could just have a you know this conversation. We would have to rely on our county exec as well as our common council as well as their neighborhood association in the Pine Bush area because I think it's a collective. We're we are coming because we we're historic who represent that part, but there are other people that may have comments or concerns or may be like, "Oh yeah, this is great. Let's put in our own little nursery on on Rap Road." But just to be clear that we speak for the historic district as relates to the historic preservation.

We understand. Okay. Well, I understand and that's you went through phases. That's phase two of this. Phase one is for us tonight. So, be the pleasure of the board entertain a motion for approval of demolition review. Was it 54? Moved by Vanessa by Vanessa, second by Rachel. Any questions on the motion review only? I still have questions. Now's the time.

Uh, it wasn't the motion it my question for staff is and being that I'm newer to planning board. So, I have not gone through the process yet with this board for demolition review. that coming from EDA. Um, and I'm looking at the demolition review standards and and I see it's whether the demolition and or proposed redevelopment plan. How often in demolition review when it's a situation like this where there's a structure that may that that has obvious safety and and you know has a big red accident and and it there's no pressing like you know I guess how often is there such a thing as a road development plan that comes forward versus like we just want to remove the structure from the parcel right now because I I asked this because if like part of my question is is is like for the applicant would you know, if you're not totally sure, you know, it's not like, you know, I have a a a grant that's going to expire and I need to use this money to move forward with my redevelopment plan. And to me so often and and I think of this as both a professional planner myself and as someone who said on EA where I was very proud of our colleagues regularly deferring action and regular regularly requesting from applicants an obvious demonstration of engaging with people impacted by the application. And so, and I I get that time is important and I I'm not looking to make people come back to meetings unnecessarily, but if it is like a conversation that can, you know, happen over a cup of coffee and if we're willing to wait a month and the applicant's like, you know, I recognize that your uncle, right, you know, it's, you know, is maybe like wants to get done faster than he or or vice versa. I'm just sort of like in good faith on the record when we have lots of public comments that are looking to build rapport amongst the neighborhood and the

applicant and if if the applicant's willing or interested to delay among just so they can have that cup of coffee like personally that makes me feel more comfortable with with voting just because I do like the standard of you know thinking about impact of projects on on the neighborhood. So um you know outright do I think demolition makes sense? Yes. But do I also want to show like see a good faith effort engagement and um in absence of a a redevelopment plan? So all this is me babbling and talking out loud. But to get back to my question, how often do you see a a redevelopment plan if you can think of an recent example? clearly like this fire department. So the quality the state of the property is kind of one category the other category is making way for the redevelopment right. So, and sometimes that sits even and those are the bad examples where demish is approved maybe the development plan is approved but they never make it there and it's 5050 when it's demolition there's a clear so I felt like there was a general consensus of the demo part. It's the next part that you all will be tasked with handling at some point in the future possibly. But I think that that that structure being up the hazard

is probably our should for us should be our main concern and providing proper authorization is a good step. Concerns and safety figuring out the next steps. Let's be honest. This is simply narrow demolition. Any further questions? It's been moved and properly seconded. All in favor, please say I. I. I. Those opposed. Motion carried. [snorts] We'll come back when you all have the discussion. I'll sit on that side though. All right.

Well, like I said, we have the property that we probably have for as well, but be for me. I know, but we'll have a plan. [laughter] Absolutely. Mr. Just want to say this is my first rodeo and anything like this. Um happy to make your last uh rodeo here entertaining. I appreciate it. This one wasn't necessarily entertaining. This one was a little bit more emotional and educational, right? We made a good one. Yeah. You know, we made a good one for you. And we would like your contact information so we can discussion. All right. Motion to

move second without objection.