Board of Commissioners (boc) - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Welcome to the pro board of commission meeting. I'll call this meeting for September 8th to order and we'll start uh with a moment of silence. Please join me. Thank you. Will you leave for the pledge of

allegiance? Will everyone rise for a pledge? Pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God and indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Thank you. Uh we have the agenda and the consent agenda before us. Any changes either of those? A motion to approve the agenda. So

move Baldwin. Thank you. Second. Second. Commissioner Vos. All those in favor say I. I. Thank you. A motion to approve agenda. So moved. Commissioner Post. Thank you. Second, Mr. Foley. All those in favor say I. Hi. Hi. Thank you. Uh we have an information item this evening of the ABC financials. Uh Jamie.

Hi, I'm Jamie Fogo, chair of the Pittsburgh ABC um board, and thank you for giving me a few moments today to just give you an update. We do have our general manager Scott Cox with us. Larry Pietzo and CB Stewart who are al last two are both also on the board as well. Um we had our end of the year our fourth quarter we sent a check on the 25th um to the town of Pittsburgh for $21,238 that total $77,657 in quarterly distributions for the year. Um, in addition to that, we uh sent a check for ex excess working capital um $79,359. And thank you again for letting us retain 40% of the total number, which was 132,268. We will keep 40% of that amount to put towards a um potential additional store. So, thank you very much for that. Um we also in the course of the year donated or didn't donate but distributed $7,400 to P Pittsburgh um police department and um alcohol uh Chattam alcohol education received a little over $10,000. So um if you have any questions please do let me know. Um I very much appreciate you allowing us to retain 40% of the excess working capital. Um the second store started out beautifully and is meeting or exceeding um our weekly goals and we had people camping out overnight for the um both the the ribbon cutting and for the grand opening. So we're very happy with how that's progressing and we had a you know modest profit in addition in our first six weeks of operation which was where the year fiscal year ended. So any questions or concerns?

Good job. appreciation. Keep up the good work. Yeah. Well, all a great team. Wonderful staff and GM Cox is doing a great job. So, thanks again. Thank you. Okay. Uh up next, we have a ceremonial ceremonial item. Is anyone from Duke Energy here this evening? All right. Well, they gave us 25,000 for a police vehicle and we appreciate it. Um, up next is Citizens Matters and we'll start with the manager's update.

Excellent. Thank you, Mayor. Uh, so we met with the folks with Robes and Walk today, worked out, uh, an agreement kind of verbal agreement on where the greenway is going to go and how we get that done so we can have the greenway connect from downtown all the way to the plant. Uh, so now we just need the a final easement uh, language change and Mr. Messi has worked on that. Robison walk that design process and that obviously we need to figure out what that name is process but uh that is ongoing. We had our first community engagement period last night at the um summerfest. Um we had 140 adults and 40 kids uh give their input. So I think that was a great turnout uh for that event and we got some great feedback. Uh skate park grand opening is the 20th of this month. I believe it's from 10 to 12. Uh but we'll get an invite sent out to you all for that. We are still working uh as you all probably know on the Sanford road project trying to get that more safe for pedestrians. We are running into an issue on the lighting package. We originally had the design approved. We had gotten a build or a budget for that. We paid that and then now the budget has gone up about five times. So we were trying to figure out a solution uh to that at this moment. We met with DOT again today on some long-term changes that we may do. Um, so I'm going to try to put some kind of plan together for you all to look at uh for October and November. Uh, and lastly, uh, Colby has a quick uh, couple of words. That's all I got. So, of course, the town continues to grow and uh, both in size, but also in staff. I'm very happy tonight to be introducing our newest, one of our newest hires, Mr. Robert Douglas who is our new and first IT director for the town of Pittsburgh. He comes to us from Carro. He's been there since 2004. Uh

background in parks and wreck but then moved over to IT and has been there for just just short of a decade. Has been responsible for large scale like application development across their fleet and uh and implementation. Was oversaw their fiber network and was the team lead on the library complex up there. So, um, he did graduate from Clemson, so there's any USC fans in the room, I'm sorry, but, uh, Robert, if you have anything, you want

Yeah, maybe maybe not so sorry. These days, we're not looking too good. But, um, Mr. Mayor, commissioners, I just wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and bring my knowledge and experience working for the town of Carbborough. From from starting out, call them balls and strikes with their little league to, you know, helping work a $40 million project building the new library over there. Um, I'm excited to work for the town of Pittsburgh. It's a really great growing community and I'm just can't be more excited to start working on improving things as best I can. So, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Glad you had him. I was going to give him a month and Colobby just said throw him to the to the right.

All right. Up next are uh mayor and commissioner updates. So I will start uh Summerfest, end of Summerfest was last evening and uh that was really a great event there in the pop-up park. So appreciate everybody that put that on. Um on August 14th, we had a joint meeting uh with the county leadership, our quarterly meeting there. So lots of good uh cooperation with the county there and good things happening. On August 19th, I did a tour of the Invicta water facility at Car's water intake on Jordan Lake. So Carrie is doing another uh pilot project like we were, but a much more scaled up version of it. So we're able to see there and a continued good results from that from that. So it's really good to see.

Um and then on August 28th, I did the uh chamber bus tour. So throughout uh Chattam County and through Pittsburgh and uh took 54 at least people uh through on that tour. So that was really good. And uh we have a EDC meeting coming up on Wednesday believe or next month. I'll be there either. Um that's all. Mayor Bald.

Yes. Thank you. Actually, we had a meeting. Central Pines Regional Council meeting was held on August 27th, 2025. The new chair is now, Brian Mallister, who is mayor of the town of Selma. So, he certainly is the one that presides over those meetings. We had presentation a really really good presentation on the proposed North Carolina Children's Hospital by the by Andy Willis who is the executive director of executive director chief planning and development officer. Basically everyone knows that that new hospital is proposed in Apex. So it's will be approximately a 500 do a 500 acre um I'm sorry 500 acute care head beds with 100 acre campus which will include ambulatory center research and teaching as well as facilities for the family because they have something like the Ronald McDonald House. So that is really looking good and it is proposed and Duke and UNCC will be working together on that and that will be basically the first children's hospital in this area. Also I'd like to invite everyone to the Chattam County Fair which will start on September 18th, 2025 and that is the 75th uh year for the Chattam County Fair. So, I want everyone that will to come and also go ahead and bring your flowers and your plants that you've grown and your vegetables and put those on the exhibit. You may get a blue ribbon. I got a blue ribbon last year. So, I invite you all to that. Thank you. That's all I have.

Thank you, Commissioner Bonds. Yes. Thank you. So, uh from the last county climate advisory committee meeting, there's really not much of immediate relevance to report. Um, but I will take a moment um as commissioner to uh just request that um perhaps at the next or following meeting we receive an update on the Hillsboro Street improvements project, the NC DOT uh widening and um uh bicycle and ped pedestrian infrastructure project. That'd be great. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ferrell. Nothing to report other than that I also attended the joint meeting with the with the county also. So that was very enjoyable. Hopefully we can get do that a little more often. Not not more often but occasionally got it. That's all I face. Mr. Foley.

Yes. I was on the same uh commerce chamber of commerce bus tour and it was fascinating and fun. As mayor ship said there was approximately there were 50 plus business leaders on the bus and it was a great time to interact and exchange ideas. Uh we stopped at uh Mosaic Chattam Rabbit in um in St. in Siler City. We stopped at the Binham Bridge and uh we had a great presentation from uh Chadam Arts Council. Uh we stopped at the alpaca farm which used to be a llama farm. Uh we took a little short tour of Chadam Chadam Park and we stopped at the plant also. So it was a it was a rather eyeopening exposure and a unifying uh trip. So and that's it for me. Thank you, Commissioner Vos.

I was at the AABC board meeting on August 28th and it was all good news. They've already given their report. I have nothing to add to it. Thank you. All right. Up next is public comment. Uh when you come up, please state your name and address at the start of your comments. There's a time limit of three minutes which will be displayed on the screen. In the interest of time and fairness, it's the board's policy not to respond directly to comments during this period, but staff will follow up as appropriate, and I apologize if I can't read your name. I'll do my best.

We will start with uh Betsy Krauss. And up next is uh RG, please. My name is Betsy Krauss. My address is 680 Ly and Trail Pittsburgh. I want to acknowledge all the effort the people in this room represent. Thank you for being here for taking the time and taking on the challenge of creating the future of Pittsburgh. According to the agenda, there's going to be a overview of progress on Chattam Park and um considering a conceptual plan. We have a conceptual plan. I'm not sure that we need another one. We already have a plan for a city of 30,000 people on 5,000 acres where we have four village centers that will give folks an opportunity to bike and to walk and maybe not to drive their cars everywhere. There will be public transportation connecting the the villages. So um the village centers will be easily walkable and then they can catch a bus or other public transport to get around the community.

There will be lots of native spaces with easily accessible ability to all the residents and to residents broadly more broadly of Chadam County. It's a great vision. Now we need to see how that concept is going to happen. We need details, not another concept plan. I've given you a map with the kinds of details we could have. It includes roads and buildings, even a school. We need to see that the libraries and schools, parks and trails, roads and bike paths work together to give the achieve the overall goals that Chattam Park has promised us. Chennam Park shared that particular map with the wastewater people. Why didn't they share it with you? The other thing missing in the existing proposals is the required financial impact analysis. Isn't that kind of important to know what the town will still that that the town will still be viable in the future when repair costs start to become an issue? Maybe they need more time time to prepare that. What's the hurry?

Thank you. Up next is RG followed by Carol Hewitt. Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Raj. I scribbled it. That's why last name is Patalia. My address is 425 Moon Meadow Lane, Pittsburgh. I would like to mention to the commissioners pretty much of what Betsy said that I believe simply renaming the small area plan a curet plan and not really addressing some of the issues that I have noticed in my review which I'll provide to you by email. I don't think that's necessarily progress in this regard and I certainly think we need to factor in more room for public review and maybe other boards reviewing this more. I'm not sure how that process will play out, but those are the two main issues I'd like to raise. So, thank you for your time. Thank you. Up next is Carol Ewitt followed by Jonath. Just want to mention before you start the clock, there's a few people at a statewide bike transportation conference today that couldn't be here tonight and I hope they're going to bring back some of the knowledge that they gained. So, um, but my name is Carol Huitt. Island 424 Johnny Brook Road, Pittsburgh. And I have looked at this new plan that uh you're going to get proposed to you tonight. It was in your agenda. And I have a couple concerns, really just two. This conceptual small area plan of 5,000 acres. Later, you would get to see section design plans with more details, but those would be tied back to this now

inflexible new conceptual plan. So we already did the concept phase. We did that back with the master plan. If we're going back to the conceptual phase, that's public meetings. That's a whole new thing. That's like starting over. So um in this new concept, you also lose a lot of power and local control. There are fewer checkpoints for town leaders to say, "Wait a minute. Uh hold on. We need to reconsider. There's less chance to negotiate better results." like how do we respond to flooding when you clearcut 5,000 acres of forest? You know what happens? Um in a small area plan, you could say we'll approve this, but we now know we need these stronger storm water controls. Just for example, if you get a big conceptual plan like this, these negotiations are front-loaded and the details are easier for the developer to refuse to do later. What about public input? It looks to me like this new conceptual plan gives citizens less opportunity and including those that are going to be living in Chattam Park a say in the process. In the original system, each small area plan comes with public meetings and hearings and neighbors have a chance to shape their town. Um, so what's the biggest difference? It looks to me like less detail about what they're really going to build here. if in fact they build it and if unless they sell it and somebody else builds it. There's less detail about exactly where schools go, where would there be a library. There's less detail about where would a park be out on the edges or would there be little neighborhood parks? Will it will parks be actually walkable? Um, you know, a conceptual plan says there should be schools. A detail plan says there will be a school here. And it's that level of detail that we need to we need to know. Um, so it there's just less accountability. I feel like you're giving away the baby with

the bathwater. I'm actually working on a chart for the planning board next week and I'll give it to you as well which shows old plan, new plan, you know, what's the pros, the cons, like how how do we compare these? But, um, so far as I'm going through it, it doesn't look like a better deal for the plants to go to town at all. It's kind of like putting pearls on a pig. It's still big, but now it doesn't want to be bacon. It wants to go out for a big night out on the town. And that night out on the town will be at our expense, not at Tim Smiths or Bubba Rolls or any other developers from Chattam Park. It'll be us. They'll be gone and will be the ones dealing with miles of new roads, traffic snarls like there was on Friday here in town, possibly flooding and paying for all the new services that the 65 plus thousand people are going to need.

Time is up. Let's not pearls on a page. Followed by Liz Cullington. Hello,

my name is Tiana Thurber and I live at 120 Hank Street. Um, I want to say I hate to feel like I'm reading a script, but this is the best way to um, express my gratitude for yesterday. Um, so I would like to take a moment to thank the town of Pittsboro and our law enforcement team for their support yesterday for the Summerfest event. We had such a wonderful time and um, it couldn't have happened or would not have been possible without your help. From safe safety to logistics, your partnership made all the difference. And on behalf of the Pittsboro business association, I want to express our deepest gratitude. That event is a great example of what happens when the town and our business community come together. And it's why I'd like to take uh a minute to talk about something else that deserves your support, the welcome center. As a small business owner, the support I received from the welcome center is invaluable. My store is tucked away off of Main Street in a very You wouldn't know it was there if you didn't know it was there. And yet, thanks to the Welcome Center, uh shoppers are directed right to my door. I know I'm not alone. Many businesses depend on the visibility and promotion that the welcome center provides. But they don't just bring us foot traffic. They provide information and statistics that help us grow. They act as a hub for the Pittsboro Business Association, even hosting our event planning meetings in their space. They welcome us, they connect us, and they strengthen the bridge between visitors, businesses, and our town. Now, imagine how much more they could do with the town's support. They could help fill the gap we currently have in social media for the

town. They could expand retail offerings that showcase Pittsboro, like postcards, t-shirts, and other items that promote our town and further amplify the events that bring so many people here. Other towns around us already invest and support their welcome centers, and Pittsburgh deserves the same. We have something truly special here and by supporting the welcome center we are investing directly in our businesses, our tourism and growth of our community. Thank you for your time and thank you for your partnership. Liz Cullington followed by Steve Wolfford.

Is this recording? Because it's very hard to hear people at the back. Is streaming and recording. I just need to be loud. Uh, it should pick you up on No, I mean it's just you can't hear people at the back.

I'm going to start my stopwatch because you don't have it up there because I don't want to get cut off. All right. My name is Liz Cington. Um, 390 Rocky Hills Road, Pittsburgh. Tonight you're supposed to get an update about Channon Park's very large South Village small area plan which has still not gone before the planning board. Our concern is that you could be asked to approve an upended and unsuitable new process which would also be an end run around the planning board to supposedly make up for the plan not meeting requirements. But you may not be told that this is the reason. The specific requirements are to provide the more detailed planning that was lacking in the earlier master plan and for a smaller area. Such a plan should include potential actual layouts with actual quote location of land uses so that all the different aspects of the proposed development and the terrain are connected and can be properly assessed in advance. For instance, how steep are the slopes for designated park areas? Do the main through roads have relatively limited access or a lot of driveways, side streets. What could be walkable from what? A proper small area plan should answer a long list of questions, but also provide enough detail to raise other questions. Um, the plan that they filed in December can't tell you any of these things and is in many ways only a tweaking of the master plan. And between its large scale and the lack of detail, it's simply not adequate. Even though China Park investors agree to this process and the requirements in return for its massive resonance, I urge you not to not allow these established requirements and process to be upended. and would make the future expansion

right even more unpredictable with less oversight. This proposal unknown origin would mean labeling the suge plan as conceptual to make it easier to approve with smaller design plans later although the requirements for those are vague not equivalent and may not be subject to the same review process. In addition, it doesn't guarantee that deficiencies will be addressed in future. While the plan may be called conceptual and lack detail, much in it could confer approval of things that also lack context, such as sites for parks and who pays for what parks. Um, possibly not conceptual at all, a 20 45 road plans hiding in the appendix that could be even more disruptive to the rest of us than Chattam Park's road projects to date. I would urge you to stand firm. Either reject this nonsense and require Chhatten Park to meet its obligations or wait until this flawed plan comes to you officially. We know that Channon Park has detailed layout plans for all the residential areas in the South Village. We've seen their map showing them um and they showed one to uh the planning board. Um although you couldn't see what the what they were showing. If you blew it up, you can see. So, what if plans change in the future? Would you rather approve an understandable plan that could change in the future or just approve a blank sheet and hope for the best? I'd also like to point out that no other developer gets to rewrite the rules because they haven't completed their homework.

Thank you. Thank you. Steve Wolford.

Hi, I'm Steve Wolford from 40 store roads. thanks for all the work you're doing. Um, I'll start off by saying I I'm excited when people figure out better ways to do things because I think there's a lot of better ways. And I think for me, the initial pitch I heard about in Chattam Park was, you know, developments coming to our county. If if it wasn't this developer, somebody else would be wanting to build here because this is a cool place to live. Um I I think it sounded like that the concepts I was hearing sounded like a good plan. I haven't followed things as carefully as some other people, but I started having questions and wanting to know more. And so I I think people have raised a number of concerns. For me, I think my concern might be a little more processoriented in that I've been coming to some meetings. I I listened to a presentation with the planning board. I heard people ask questions there on the planning board members and I don't think they got clear answers. I heard new terms in the meeting and I asked planning board members after like what I hadn't even heard that before and know that's the first time I've ever heard that myself like I I don't know what that design stage is or things like that. So I think my biggest concern right now is I think there's an opportunity for a cool way of doing things that's going to be a best case scenario. But the more people I talk to and even people I've talked to on this board, county commissioners, nobody really even seems to be all that clear about if we approve this part, what does that lock us into? What are our ch how do we make sure we're actually getting what we think we're getting? And I don't think everybody even has the same idea of exactly what we'd be getting when people ask questions about density or some some of these other thing, you know, how dense is it going to be? Are there going to be little village centers? Are they are those going to move? what what's all this going to look like? I mean, I I think people have already asked a lot of

those questions tonight. So, I think my suggestion at this point would be that each of you ask yourselves, how clear am I on what we're doing here moving forward and what we have in place to make sure we're getting what we think we're getting and maybe even make sure there's a more common vision than there may be of what exactly it is or is it going to be the cool thing or or is my idea the cool thing different than your idea or how flexible is it? So, I I would just think with a decision this big, it'd be great if people could put something together so that ordinary members of the public like me who are interested in following this could check in and see, okay, wait, I can see what we've got laid out here. I can see what we'd have in place if it starts to look different. I can see what the accountability mechanisms are or where people can modify things and if new information about new ways of doing storm water or doing electricity or something like how do we implement those so that this is going to be as good and up to date as possible. So that's I guess that's my request that somewhere that could be easily accessible for people to understand kind of where we're moving forward here. Thanks.

Thank you. Okay, up next we have a presentation on the Pittsburgh town hall feasibility study. Uh Siobhan,

evening. Nice to be with you all tonight. Uh talk about this important town project. Um I'm here with Siobhan floor, business partner here at Frank, Frank Land Design, local civil and landscape architect, land planner. Um, so we were hired by the town to take a look at the uh parcel of land where the current little little Tikes Learning Academy is and sort of study it and understand what is possible on that site. Uh, in terms of the new Pittsburgh town hall, how do we how do we flip the you got you? Uh, you can flip. Um uh and yeah, so here's our courthouse, Main Street Station. It's a little it's a little washed out. Um Hillsboro Street, East Street, Thompson Street. So this this parcel of land right here is really sandwiched in two in in between two of our major thorough affairs being East Street and Thompson Street. And it's only three or four blocks off of Hillsborough Street. So, we're going to have folks coming from all different directions. Uh there's really no back to this site. Uh uh you can sort of we debated on who's coming from where the most, but it it is a central location. It has walkability to downtown. It has walkability uh up to East Street. um really think it works well for its intended use to put a rather large building um on on what what and I'm sure you're familiar with Little Tikes uh what what the development is there right now. Um next slide little little more zeroed in uh image here. Uh Salsbury Street flanks one

side, Ferrell Street the other. Here's Thompson and here's Small. And we're in a real transition zone between the residential area. We have some really sort of sweet smallcale residential uh houses here, historic house here. We have some residences. This is more of a vegetated site. Um, and one of the things that u and we have there's Main Street Station. So, we're in this sort of transition zone, which we'll we'll speak to a little more between sort of commercial and residential. And and what we're trying to do is respond to both uh with the architecture and the development and the site layouts, respecting the residential areas, trying to keep this a passive corner um to where we're not really jammed up against these small houses with a with a larger building. the the site does slope uh from east to west as being the low point which Garrett will talk about in some of the site development. Um but that that provides sort of a little more zoomed in context of what of what the parcel is. I think it's around two and a half three acres something like that. So um next slide just some images to familiarize uh everyone here. Uh this is looking from the corner of Salsbury and Frell looking north. You can see it's a rather gentle slope. Um there's Thompson Street in the background. Next slide. Uh this is a view from the corner of Thompson and Frell. Uh this is a very prominent view. you Thompson's probably our our most uh heavily traveled um street uh that surrounds the uh site. So this is a high visibility corner. Um and so we paid attention to that. You'll see

in the site development. Next slide. Uh this is from the low uh part of the site on Salsbury. Um looking north. Uh self-explanatory. Next slide. This is and this is some contextual images that we think are important. Uh like I said, we're in a in a transition zone between residential and commercial. Um some very uh simple um smallcale residential uh houses that flank the site or just within blocks uh with a mix of uh wood siding uh brick shingles, metal roofs, very simple traditional uh you know residential uh scale architecture and we're butdding up against that. So, how you know, one of the questions we've had is how do we do that effectively? Um, and respect what's there while we understand we're building a large modern building that will have a lot of traffic coming to it. So, but this is this is the context we're working with in addition to next slide. Some of our commercial areas with with Walgreens just down just down the street a block away. a small B&B is is very close, which is more of a residential style architecture. We have the auto body shop and the laundry just down the street with the car wash and then the uh community house just up the street. So, we're we're really in a transitional zone um that uh it becomes important how we insert uh our building into this context. Um, next slide. We'll come back to some images, but Garrett's going to take you through sort of some of the site analysis of what's there and what's proposed.

Yeah, thanks Taylor. Um, so I think he did a good job with, you know, explaining the visuals um from the impact of the neighborhood and kind of explaining uh how this site exists kind of almost on like the downtown fringe area where we're we're we have a lot of residential homes um that are adjacent. So, so being sensitive to those and just to kind of take a deeper horizontal uh look at the site. Uh I think there's a there's a lot of opportunity because uh if not now, but in the future, there's tons of pedestrian uh connectivity to downtown. There's existing sidewalks along Thompson Street. Uh there's proposed uh sidewalks along uh Salsbury Street. Uh and in the future, Small Street connects to the plant where we have a very nice amenity with a greenway. So, there's a lot of connectivity here from a pedestrian level um that this site uh wants to capture. Um as well as uh sometimes when sites are developed uh you can uh take some of the cues uh from the existing development to understand uh how the site works and a lot of times uh those work well. Uh so taking some uh cues from the existing daycare just to understand some site topography uh how it positions itself along Salsbury. Um something that Taylor showed in one of the images uh most of the time roads have a lot of slope to them. We have a great opportunity here where Salsbury is nearly flat uh almost to where it gets to Thompson. So there's a lot of opportunity um where uh we can place a building uh kind of up along that commercial uh corridor and not necessarily have to work and mitigate a bunch of grade change. Um and then next slide. So interpreting a lot of that that site

contextual kind of moving from north to south. We obviously know that Thompson Street is is a huge u pedestrian connectivity opportunity uh and one of one of the most traveled corridors, but as Taylor also mentioned, um this is also the site is also going to be accessed by East Street and and folks coming uh from road and how do we position a building that's uh you know responds to that commercial corridor Thompson but is also sensitive to the NA to the neighborhood. Um so some of the big things were making those connect pedestrian connections north. Um and then as you move u on the other side of the building um having a more civic um civic space with a public plaza um which we're going to show some some images of later, but uh kind of having uh some different materials and and entry points uh for you know the courtroom areas versus kind of the staff entry areas along with uh a lot of opportunity um kind of for uh hangout or like dining spaces with public uh spaces for staff along Ferrell Street as well as covered canopies on the north and south position uh of of the long administrative wing on the right side which Taylor and Javon are going to uh go in in more detail with. Um and then just you know trying to respect general circulation uh provide adequate you know fire access uh and most importantly you know we're controlling uh you know storm water runoff and and providing a nice you know uh uh entryways from either portion of the site and and and also with the residential component at the corner of

Salsbury and Ferrell trying to create some kind of uh passive um area that that tells us who we are. You know, we're Pittsboro and we were thinking some maybe some signage and some some uh artistic uh installation, but also respecting that corner against the residences. We think it could be a a really special place, especially, you know, thinking about folks coming uh from East Street uh to the town hall, but also, you know, having multiple entry points to the site. I have a couple questions for you. Creek tree. Um the first one is there's some wonderful trees on that property. Are you planning to keep any of the

um which ones? I mean you talking about some of the ones in the front where the parking lot are the cedar trees with this plan. We we were not um I think there is maybe opportunity at the front corner as the vista you showed earlier northwest corner the northwest corner on Thompson. Um, we could definitely look at preserving u and I don't think I think that would be a nice opportunity to preserve preserve a tree uh and you know I think a message board to speak to that this is conceptual we can get a survey and locate specific trees and we certainly would work around if it made sense. That'd be great.

Yeah. So we're we're not that far down the road but we certainly would like to look at that in more detail. Okay. And we did take that into consideration trying to, you know, there's a lot of built area already on the site with the Little Tex building. And so you might see some similarities. It's it's in a generally a similar footprint to where the other building is.

And I I'll just follow up on some of what Garrett said. Just a little more detail. So here's Thompson. Here's Frell. Here's Salsbury. We've got an entry off of off of Thompson where you could come in here. We've got an entry off of Frell Street and then we've got an entry off of Salsbury Street. But the the way this breaks down is we have this incry lobby here. This represents about 15,500 square ft. Um, and it breaks into sort of three main masses. One being a one-story, we call it the government wing, which is where a room like this would be where where town council is held. Mayor's office, public restrooms. We've got a public entry lobby that you can enter from Thompson Street if you're walking, but if you come in a car, you actually have a drop off line along here. That's a covered there's a covered uh uh

canopy here that stretches down. You'll see it in the in the images. And then you have this is a twostory we call it the office admin wing which would house all of the public departments and things like that. So this is around 4500 square ft of the 15,500. So there's three main parts of this building. The onetory government wing, the twotory admin wing, and then the sort of covered connector which links the two. So three main sort of masses if you will. Um, and like Garrett said, there is a public plaza right off of the government uh meeting room. And it it really works out to where it's possible that you could have a meeting and really have have this whole building shut down the the the office wing. So you you don't have to have folks wandering into, you know, the more town oriented parts of the building. and we we'll go through the floor plan, but that's that's the main idea behind this site plan. And the slopes down here, we've got a little water retention area down here. And, you know, there's opportunities for some outdoor, you know, sort of informal outdoor seating areas, lunch areas along this along this this uh part of the site. So, with that, next slide. I think we're at the floor plans which Siobhan can

commissioner Foley, did you have some two a couple other questions? I can wait. Yes, sure. Oh, I'm sorry.

Okay. Um, so as Taylor was describing, um, we took uh we had several meetings with the town staff to identify what the needs are for the new town hall building. I mean, obviously, we've had some of those conversations before. Um, but this is a new fresh look at it and um we're we were excited to get new um information from the town um given that you know they have an anticipated growth over the next uh 5 to 10 years and beyond. And so we worked with them to identify what those needs are and then sought to arrange them in a certain way that kept the areas that were um needed to be accessed by the public easily accessed by the public and clearly um um given a direction how to get there within the floor plan and a way to then secure the other areas that did not need to be accessed by the public. And so as Taylor was mentioning, um it kind of formulated itself all this information from the town uh kind created the plan that you're looking at here. So the wing that is to the left as Taylor said is a one-story what we're calling the government wing and that's or the legislative wing and that's where your council chamber is located. Um that is where then your anti-chamber would be and the mayor's office, public restrooms um all accessed then by um a corridor that kind of wraps the council chamber connects to the lobby. Um so the public lobby then is what connects that that government legislative wing to the administrative excuse me. And that lobby fronts both um

Thompson Street to the north and a covered walkway to the south that connects to to the parking areas. Um and then to the right side of the plan you have the administrative wing and that's where we have um the various town departments. Um these plans are colorcoded. It's a little hard to see up here, but within your prints, you might see that there's um a number of private offices. There's 17 private offices on the first floor. The next slide will show the second floor, too. Um another 17 private offices on the second floor. There's a bay, several bays of open work spaces, too. On the second floor, there are assembly and conference areas. So, as I said, there is a chamber, a council chamber that would seat uh roughly a hundred um guests as well as the chamber DS um to the front of the room. There's um several conference rooms throughout the building. Um one that can seat uh 12 to 16 people and then on the second floor even larger one that can seat 20 to 24. Um there are as Taylor said there is this footprint on the first floor is about 15,500 square feet. The second floor is just the administration wing which is twotory and that's 10,500 square ft. Um there's a number of staff support areas. So we have work rooms, storage rooms, a large break room that all the staff can gather in. We have public spaces which are really just they're ing green in the printed plan. Um it's the lobby and the corridor that surrounds the um council chamber. Um from that lobby and an additional kind of waiting area. There are two check-in spaces where the public

can um meet with a with town staff. There's an intake room for anybody that needs to speak with town staff. All of that beyond that point is what's secured. And so um and as well as some public restrooms that are off the lobby, but um beyond that it will be staff only unless brought back. Um so within the building we've got um the administrative staff. We have um engineering, finance, human resources, and planning departments. And um and if you go to the next slide, you'll see the second floor which is predominantly office space. So there are some support spaces um also sprinkled within there. Um a large conference room facing out toward Thompson Street. Um and in the middle between there's so there's corridor space that wraps around um connecting the various offices. In the middle there, there's a zone that has that is open and that is an open work space area that um we see having a large skylight above it um to bring daylight to to the um workers that don't have a outside office an office along the outside perimeter. And um that would add another roughly 12 workstations. It could be more if they were smaller workstations. So this is how um the building developed over time and um it made a lot of sense to us and we met with staff and reviewed it and and it seemed to fit their needs as well. The next slide.

I got one. Yes sir. Um 15,000 square foot on the first floor. Does that include the government wings? It does. Okay. And 10,000 on the second floor, okay? Okay. Thanks. It's about 26,000.

Okay. that worries. And so as as that became kind of clear that we were going to have this separation of this government wing um with the administrative wing as well as um some precedents that were shared with us from the town. Um we looked for other examples and here's a few. So, the two images on the right are uh Wendell's uh newer town hall. Um, and then some other images that kind of showed that a a more kind of touching on Pittsboro's more rustic side um and uh agricultural rustic side um and looking at inspiration from other types of buildings that that had this offset of maybe a one-story structure with a twostory structure adjacent to it. So that started to inform what became um the massing of the building and Taylor will walk you through that.

Which one was Windendell the images and I believe that town administration toward Wendell liked it the concept where you could see it's sort of similar. There's a common lobby with the government section on one side and a uh administration on the other. Um, so it's it's similar in that way. The architecture that we're proposing is a little bit different, but these were these were images that town shared with us and talking about what were some pros and cons, especially at the Lendell. Uh, and can you identify the ones on the left?

Uh, this was just an image that we liked. It's it's actually a a government building. I don't know exactly where it is, but this was this was provided by the town, I believe, as an image. I don't know exactly where that is, but the one that we took the most cues from because we have the floor plans and the tour from the town is Windendell. Can you go back one slide or two slides? I want to just real quick. So, yep. Um, so the way this works there, um, like I said, if if if there's an actual event or a town council meeting, and and by the way, this is not a slope floor, the these, uh, chairs can be moved into this storage room. So, it's more of a multi-purpose space. The public plaza is right here. So, you really have this sort of public whole zone here. And with these secure doors that Siobhan mentioned, this can really be this this portion can be secured off to where this can just function on itself for a night meeting or something like that or or weekend event. Um, and this is a we consider this a staff entrance. This is a break room. So, this is more staff amenities down here uh with a staff parking parking area down here. And then upstairs and then here's the elevator. And for anyone in the public who wants to go up, they'd have to be either escorted up or brought through one of these stair stairwells. So, we're going to go to sort of what this looks like in 3D. That sort of gives you a basis from a floor plan standpoint. Next slide.

Yeah. So, we started out with just no no material materiality, just sort of massing. And like I said, there's sort of three parts to this. the one-story government section, the twostory uh administration area, and then this third sort of piece, this canopy that connects the two between them. So, you get these sort of plays of onetory, twotory mass, you can see that we're working with a gable structure uh really sort of addressing the residential aspects of the site uh with you'll see the materials we're proposing in upcoming slides. and then this more sort of modern um more I guess a little more progressive uh side of the government um legislative wing but again sort of tied together with this this is the uh public lobby that in from Thompson Street here's the vehicular drop off here's the public plaza and this is that staff entry we're talking about so um this is where we sort of started when an evolution of sort of the design and the ideas next slide Please won't spend too much time on these, but you get a sense of scale. This is really scale. And you can see we're thinking large windows. Um this would be the view from Thompson Street. Uh this would be uh two top and bottom floor. Those are the large conference rooms for staff where public the public can be brought into these. Sort of a a prominent feature on the corner of Thompson and Ferrell. This is a view of the drop off area, the public plaza. Next slide. Okay. So, we'll start talking about maybe some materials. Um, the way we see this, uh, and it start you sort of see more detail as we go. So, this is the entry off of Feral Street. Here's the entry

off of Thompson. This is Thompson. So you come in and you have a little bit of a, you know, I don't think we need a lot of stacking, but you have the opportunity for a couple of cars to be here or UPS truck to pull over and run in. But immed you can immediately get out. You're under you're undercover. You come into this uh uh public lobby. Um and then you have walkability on this side on Thompson where you could also enter. Um and we have some staff parking over here, parking space for the mayor. uh his office would be right here. Um but again, there's this public plaza right off of the uh uh meeting room. Uh we sort of hardened the site along the uh streets and the parking is in the interior of the site. Uh so you're not when you're riding by, you're not looking over cars to the building. Um next slide. This would be the view as you car coming up to be dropped off or just to park. You can see large expanses of glass, the public plaza, some nice landscaped areas, this canopy that sort of separates the first story windows from the second. Um, next slide. I think we have a night shot. You can't believe it. You can't really see this. Next slide. Wish it were darker in here. Here's a here's an interesting view along the government wing. Uh this public plaza here uh you can sort of get a sense of scale. One story here, twotory here, but this canopy brings the twostory scale down to more of a human scale. It's not just a twotory wall uh that we're that we're navigating as we enter this building. Next slide. a little more zoomed in view. We have

some benches out here for, you know, waiting if someone's picking up or, you know, could be a place to sit, have a phone call if you're uh staff. Um, here's the public uh sort of corridor public zone beyond the uh slide. This is that staff entry um with the staff amenities break room, staff parking lot, but just again a sense of scale that the the sort of twostory it's a large building. Um but how how do we break it down to where it the scale uh maybe works a little better for the site. Um, one thing we have, we're showing sort of this would be lapsiding metal roof on the gable similar to the residential architecture. We do have large expanses of glass. This orange material we see as a uh a clay tile um not brick but terracotta. We think it's uh it's a very durable material but it it has it's rooted in place. Uh we have clay soils. We have a lot of artists who work in clay. We think it's a good tie. It's similar, you know, to to brick. Uh but it's a sort of modern interpretation. Um it's an old material, but we that that's sort of the tie to a to the place and some of the history of of Chadam County, Pittsboro with with a lot of our pottery and things of that nature. Plus, it ties in with some of the materials of the of the of the house.

That that's the thought behind that. But on the twotory side, lap siding, um, gable roof, metal roof, things like that. Next slide. Here's a view from Thompson Street. Um, prominent corner. There's a there's a staff sort of outdoor meeting, lunch area, whatever. You mean sort of a flex space uh along Thompson. Here's here's the here's the sidewalk where you could enter if you're walking into town hall. Here would be the uh council chamber right here and the entry off of Thompson back at the back side of the of the of the image. I think that's all the image. There's one more maybe. Am

I seeing windows behind the council dice? That is right there. Yeah.

Um here was be view along Frell Street. Um again play of accent materials of the accent terracotta against the uh lap siding. We had this large sort of indentions emphasizing sort of this these are those nice public or staff and public uh conference rooms. Next slide. One more. There's there's the view coming off of uh Thompson. And we have we're just looking at some different color options. That's not important right now. But that's that's the that's the evolution of the feasibility study. Something set in stone. That's sort of a overview from a site building plan 3D elevation idea. And then the last slide we did have a professional cost estimator uh put together some numbers which you want to take us through. So, as Taylor said, we worked with professional cost estimator that we've worked with for oh, a couple decades now almost. Um, and uh he looked at the building, the proposed building and the proposed site and priced it as though it were being bid today. Right? This this represents if it were to go out to bid in today's market. The future market is hard to determine. We do have recommendations for things like inflation and escalation um depending on how far out the building would be, but this represents today's market. Uh the building construction is a little north of $12 million. The site work is roughly about $1.5 million for a total construction estimate of 13.8 million, a little north of that. um a cost per square foot of $544

a square foot. That is in keeping with what we have seen for public buildings being built today. It is wild to us as I'm sure it is to you but but that is where the current construction market is is for today. Um there is a separate line item here for adding a fire sprinkler. Now a sprinkler system is not required by code. We can we actually designed the floor plan you saw to compartmentalize the building in a way to keep it um safe and meet building code without a sprinkler system. But that might be something that the government would prefer. It's a protection for your investment. Um and so there is a separate line item for that at $327,000 28,000. So some other things to note about this estimate. kind of already said it's today's construction market. It's not a future construction market. Um so it does not include any escalation or inflation. Um it does include a 5% design or estimate contingency and that's because it's very early. This is very conceptual design and um the idea being that in the future um that contingency would be reduced to zero as the building design finalized got tightened up. Um there is no construction contingency included in this number because that's not the number a number a general contractor would give you. That wouldn't be part of their bid number. So, we always recommend that owners hold a construction contingency and the state recommends around 3% for new construction, typically 3 to 5% maybe, but um so that's not included in the number here. It also doesn't include any removal of rock or unsuitable soils that might be present. And we don't currently

have a a geotechnical report that shows us what's happening below grade, but we do know there's a building on that site as as it is right now. And so, um, we're hopeful that while that's a very common thing to encounter in Chattam County is rock below grade, um, we're hopeful that that wouldn't be something encountered here. But you definitely know more um once a a geotechnical report was done. Um so it does include chamber deis. It does not include any furniture or fixed seating um within the council chamber for the visiting public. Um so and throughout the building it does not include furniture um because that is something not typically provided by your contractor. Um, we did include an allowance of $150,000 for an emergency generator, assuming that's something that you would want. Um, it could be something that is easily taken out though. Um, appliances are assumed to be provided for separately and like I said, the fire sprinkler is shown as a separate line item. So, we'd welcome any questions you might have.

I know you probably have two more. Welcome back to First of all, Taylor, this is exquisite. I love it. Really do. You're you're an artist. Um I I know that the the the twotory building half of that roof is south facing. Is that correct? Is that am I orienting that correctly? That's a that's an north south orientation. Yeah. Back in that I can't see. East. The one story is a east west orientation, right? Um do can we get a cost analysis for solar on that? Sure.

Um and also uh there's a building on east in East Town Drive in Chapel Hill whose walkway is that type of structure with the the canopy. Is that Keith Roseville? I think I know that. Yeah. And it's all solar. Yep.

So, uh, that would be something I'd be interested in pursuing. Uh, and the other concern is is flooding. Um, I know we have a retention pond, but that's downhill from um the one-story side of this building. Are there any plans to I know you you've already thought about it, but can you help me feel safer about it? Uh as far as like street floods every major rain event comes down through uh is that small street just west of where this building is. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. The sign's definitely positioned a lot higher in the landscape than the spot right there in small street where it's flooding. Uh I think you know with this project we are capturing and attenuating any kind of additional flow that we're going to add to that point. So we're not making it worse.

It exists today. I think the flooding with Thompson Street is an offsite issue. It's not something that can be solved on this site. We definitely have all all our intent to not worsen any types of issues with the flooding there because of the elevation position. That's all. You're going to be well. Appreciate that.

Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Sure. Yeah. Um, I noticed a lot of south facing glass. Uh, and, uh, I'm confident that's going to increase the cost of cooling the space. Um, so it'll provide some benefit for reducing heat and heating costs in winter. But we're proposing uh overhangs over over windows as well, sun shades, things like that. Some of those and some of those big indentions at the end that push in.

I saw those to the north, but I didn't see to the south. Go back if you would. Go back. Go back. Go back. There's a similar indent to the on the north side on the south side. Keep going. six or 10 feet from the north. There's the south. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. So, it's a big And then we've got sun shades above both levels of vision glazing. Oh, good. And then back at the uh back at the government that that whole thing is shoved back under that canopy. That canopy does provide solar control for that glazing and sun. Very good. So, we did take that into account. and the lobby area for the council chambers wing

that is also pond. Yeah, that is actually what you're looking into right that is see some vertical shades. It looks like like vertical louvers or something on one end but there is that that vision glazing is under the canopy and an overhang of the building. So we said I understand what you're saying. We have in this early design we've started to think about the issues that have further developed but we've been thinking about

very good um and um thank you commissioner Foley for your concerns about flooding um and and tree preservation. Um there are a few specimens on that site that I think are probably worth taking a closer look at. Absolutely. Um, and I confess that I've not looked very closely at them with an eye to preservation. But, um, the, uh, more interesting thing in my mind is, uh, what I always call the terminus of the rail line,

adjacent lot. Um, we're still trying to work out ownership with the rail company, I gather, but uh I don't think that's due to any uh shortcomings on our part. I think they they're just not giving up the target. Is that right? We're still working on it. Yes, sir. Um, but that's a that's a very interesting area and um I'd love to see some thought put into some kind of tie this general area too far right here.

Yeah. I'd love to see a greater relationship uh between um between the facilities, not just the parking, the facilities and that that site. We've identified that as a spot for that reason, but we don't have it yet. So, but you're but I totally agree with you. It's an opportunity. it is an option

and um yeah, we we don't have a um an inventory of the trees down there. Um we really haven't even been maintaining it, but uh the neighbors on Small Street have to the best of their ability been maintaining it the past 15 20 years. And before that, it was another neighbor um doing that out of the goodness of their heart and u neighborly self-preservation, I suppose. But um anyway, it's it's a very interesting area and perhaps there's some worthy specimen trees in there that that uh we could uncover and and take care of

with our when you do get a true survey of the site, detailed survey, I think we would go out and flag certain treatments that we identified and if we certainly can work around them, we would would do that and and I don't think there is any real depression there right now. So we could significantly move or change the shape of the storm water basin to reflect some kind of continuity or relationship there. Where's that somewhere? Further. It's it's probably further left. It goes under the main street.

A lot of separation looking. for the combines of the study. We kept it on site, but you're right. There's a lot of opportunity where we could because there's there's a there's a lot of different little I want to say ecosystems, but I'm sure there's some like little wetland areas in there that we want to preserve, but also to basically tie it together because, you know, we kind of have this harbor right now, but there's definitely a lot of opportunity. Yeah. To share and have a relationship with some kind of passive space. Yeah. at that corner because you know everything everything's pointing towards downtown and some pedestrian connectivity. So that's going to be kind of the thing you see as you as you come down small street. So thank you.

It'll be it'll be it'll be another visual entry point with the site once once it kind of work out the the title ship and everything else. That's what you see with this this we kind of see this. It's not there's not just one this is a filter. You're gonna people are going to filter into this site from all sides. So, we're It's true. Every entry. Yeah, it's all an entry. And it I think it it attempts to address the specifics of the site while still sort of open face toward downtown, which a lot of people be walking here. So, it's it's trying to balance a lot of needs. Yeah.

Um and the uh vehicular uh entrance or exit the drive as it's positioned right now onto Salsbury. I I'm almost wondering if we could just lose that because I as I try and think about uh avoiding headlights in the neighbor's uh front door, um it's kind of hard to move it closer to the corner. So, you know, maybe two vehicle entrances is enough. It may be. you're we thought about that. That's something we would like to study. I don't disagree with you at all. Okay.

I think we plan for fire truck to be able to access fairly like the the accessibility a fire truck will rely on that access. So,

and along along those lines, this is a really kind of a sacred part of the site along these these nice little residential. trying to we're trying to get away from there and let respect their space and and that's the existing site plan sort of does that but we we had three or four schemes one where it was slammed up against Salsbury and we had it we had five or six but this is the one that sort of made sense when we talked to the town everybody agreed that that getting sort of pushing it towards Thompson made the most sense.

Yeah. Yeah. and and maybe just thinking a little bit differently about the parking area so that it's it's uh less of a well more of a space that one might actually enjoy walking through. I'll just leave it at that. Most definitely. And that's a tricky balance. It's do we want to save the trees, you know, adjacent to the site or create space on site while getting our required while getting our required space. Yeah, it's a balance of you know creating meaningful nice usable spaces and you know preserving the college is do it's a fun balance. Do we need to revisit the required uh minimum parking areas for

I don't mean we we would want to have a conversation. One thing we're thinking is that maybe we could have the parking spaces dedicated to the admin because these are used at different times primarily like we're here at 6:00 at night. maybe the government wing, those those spaces are shared with the daytime use so that we don't have to build as much parking area. So, we've talked a little bit about that, but I do think it would be a conversation for the future of like here's what the ordinance says. Is there a way maybe to reduce it? So, yeah.

Well, um eliminating minimum uh parking standards is is on my long-term to-do list, but I'm not gonna It would it would right now. I'm open to it. Um and um as regards the idea of solar on the roof, thanks again, Commissioner Foley. Uh can we look to uh some products that are building integrated roof replacement? We'll look. If we're thinking about a metal roof already, let's just think about and and you've got a we're we're proposing the government wing is a I mean, it's a low slope, but it's a a flat roof. So you could have a whole 5,000 square feet of

Yeah. facing directly south uh for that for that application. That'd be great if we could uh drop the cost of the roof by using the panels as roofing members. That one building I spoke about in Chapel Hill was $13,000 a year in electrical cost savings. 13,000 and that's half the size. So, y substantial.

Uh those are just off the top of my head right now. I I think I have some other thoughts that uh are How many spaces are parking spaces are there? Uh maybe three. Okay. We were right under the minimum. I we were like only two or three spaces above required. So there's not a lot of extra spaces cuz initially we did have uh some thoughts and some planned kind of connectivity as well as trying to pull some of that public space out into the parking lot and kind of divide that mass of

heat as it just at the same time get all the requirement spaces and all that stuff into the kind of we anticipated that comment though. Yeah. What's the capacity of the meeting room? At least 100. I think I think it's upwards of that. I think we got it. We show up 110 seats outside of the outside of the dice. Yeah. Um and those again it's it's not a slope floor and those can be put in the storage room for different configurations.

Well, this is a town question, ST staff question. Will you have town vehicles parked there also during the day, during the night? Something to consider. Maybe a few. Okay. There would probably just be fleet vehicles, but parks and wreck will be at Rafi public works there, inspections, public works. So, yeah. Not probably just a couple fleet vehicles.

Okay. Thanks for the opportunity to work on this. It's exciting. And uh if anyone has any questions, you can got I got a couple.

Um on the Salsbury Street entrance. Uh a lot of people use that street. Uh people coming from town come Salsbury, make a left right into that parking lot. I don't see why we should take that away. That's just my opinion. Um the uh second story building, if you could go to that picture on the I guess it's the north and south end. I'm a little concerned of the uh to me that looks like one of our conceptional fire station entrances right there. Um it looks like a a rollup door there.

Okay. Oh, maybe on both ends. Okay, we can study that. It's a It's a It's a It's just my comment. I know we doing conceptional drawings and and things with the fire department and it really looks like a uh pay for a fire truck. We can we can look at other ways find others, but think maybe uh we could do a little different with some windows there. Sure, we'll study that.

I like the design though. I really do. I like the design and moving it up toward Thompson Street in the uh where the uh daycare is now is a great idea. One thought I had from from this view as well is if we can get the sidewalks back off the road. That's a common complaint of myself and others that walk along there. Come on, Tom. If we can put some space between the sidewalk and road all the way around, I think a little separation from the trucks. Yeah, that's not a problem. Maybe street trees, too. Yeah, the current site doesn't have a whole lot of trees on it. Got a couple of biggies. There's only like three.

Yeah. this this will be a good opportunity to kind of reforest that site in terms of street trees, parking lot trees, and trees along the perimeter. Yeah. And um I recognize that I'm talking about something that adds to the cost, but u uh modeling um good practices with storm water uh like some rain garden features throughout the parking lot. Uh that that'd be cool just to see what What's that going to look like? What would that cost? You have some of those treats, too. They also have some suspend system. There we go.

You can actually feature your storm water in those tree wells at the front. So, it's pretty cool. It's improved. It's not just a rain guard. It's an approved storm water measure from It's called Science. It actually creates your storage kind of parking lot side of the street. Thank you. But yeah, just just to soft on some of those park edges, it would it would make all the difference.

I do want to make one note with this estimated price that does not include design. So all in this probably 16 million which is about 4 million over budget. So we really needed a building that cost 10 with maybe spending 13 when you have furniture design. uh site and cost. So, we're already three or four million dollars over budget. Um, and we haven't even done anything yet. So, that's an important thing to think about, too, as we start adding X, Y, and Z. Uh, we really need to cut the square footage down some, probably the design, cut that down. Uh but we we are going to get our financial uh analysis done. Waiting on a date when we can get that to see kind of what the projection is on what we can afford with the new rebound numbers in. Uh but my guess is it's still going to be around 15 to 18 million of debt service. And you've got to with that we got to build this. We need space fire uh police station and we got to build a fire station. So there's the bad news. We park a fire truck here. And when he said that, I'm like, okay,

true. Be dual function. So, we we've got some hurdles ahead of us and our timeline is tight. One other question with the sprinkler. Does that reduce our insurance considerable to add sprinkler to the building? It should reduce it, but I don't know how much. Would it? Probably not much. That's I don't have the answer. I can try to get it for you though. No, I don't think so. Ain't that neat? It ain't going to be $327,000 savings per year. So that that cost of $550 a square feet. Like what are some comparable things that you've seen at that cost recently?

And we've had we've had a number of bids just recently. Wasn't the same construction type. It was a different construction type though. We've not built build a type 2B building. It's a non-combustible construction in a while. This is I could get you some recent comparisons. This is coming from our cost estimator who bid stuff around the state daily. But it would be on a comparable. If you want a specific project, let me do a little research. But that's a that's a current bid price, public bid price in this market from a cost estimator who does this daily across the state.

It's it's specifically he's looking at this region, right, and the the triangle region. Um he's familiar with what different regions are seeing in the bid market right now. Um but even even so is that your qu is your question what as another project or like another building type be comparable I mean I think just like yeah what other similar what other any other you know town halls that have been built nearby or municipal commercial type thing.

Let us get back to you that specific question. Um, but that price is is is what the he sees as the current construction. And that that per square foot price that's it's not just building, it's building plus site. That's all it is. It's the site included. So the just make sure you it's both and and then you just divide it by the 16,500 or whatever. 16. Yeah. 15 1500. Yeah. Or 16500. Yeah. side of that. I have one additional question. The photo that we're looking at here, what type of material? Can you just remind me of what type of material?

Two story that would be a combination of the the gray is the gray area would be lap sighting. It could either be natural wood or or fiber cement depending on preference. Um and then the the orang-ish material is is a clay tide terracotta. Um, it's a thin veneer, but it lasts forever. A lot of times you see clay tile roofs, but this is a this is a clay tile in a vertical situation. Um, the same material as brick, but it's just it's about an inch thick, 3/4 of an inch. The building would be gone and those tiles would still be there because if we got a fire and those tiles would be there

and the roof you're anticipating would be soon metal. Okay. All right. Thank you. On the twotory section, one story section be a single some kind of single plywood. And to further complicate it, if we make the building much smaller, we're going to run out of space sooner than later. So, this was this was matched pretty close to what we need in the next 5 years. And then with that space on the second floor, 10. Yeah.

To add uh Yeah. 10 years. And then the space on the second floor to add workstations that would get us through probably the 25. But hopefully by then local government and providing service will look a lot different. You won't need as many people on some of those adjacent sites if those were ever required for any reason. Maybe some out some annexes that could be constructed of future needs. But I might have

flame buildings or John. I hear you say that the second floor could be uh maybe a phased approach where maybe I didn't hear you walls perhaps the open does have they looked at that already saw the open program open and that could be then workstations we go in there we could put in walls later but um they looked at doing some phasing leaving some some spec space upstairs and I think it only saved us 1.2 2 million and by the time you came back and built all that back out later on, you'd probably end up spending three times that. I certainly going to increase.

We saw that with the Windendell project, um they left, I think, 4,000 square feet open and the the numbers that they had to budget to activate that space uh was pretty astounding compared to what they spent to build the building and in general. U so the savings just weren't make sense. It's cheaper to do it at the beginning if you can. Certainly could shell the space, but it would probably long term it would be more expensive, but sometimes you have to do that. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Okay.

Up next, uh yeah, we'll do a 10m minute recess. Come back. Well, let's just say come back at 7:45 about 15 minutes. Yeah. That's great. Good. Yes. Motion. Motion to approve a short recess of 15 minutes. Second. All in favor? I question this later.

Welcome back. Up next, we have a staff update on the small area plan. Miss Thompson. Hey everyone. Hello. Good evening. Good evening.

Teresa Thompson, assistant plane director. Um, tonight we're going to review the timeline for Chattam Park going back to 2015 and we're going to explain how the small area plan fits within that timeline. We're going to talk about what the purpose of the small area plan is. Um where we are now with its review and what additional steps beyond small area plan that staff recommends. Um so feel free to ask any questions throughout the presentation and we'll start with the first slide. So Chattam Park was resoned in 2015. uh it included their master plan, their larger documents, kind of like the uh framework for Chhattam Park. There's a lot of background information, overall goals. Um nothing as specific as what you would see in like the elements. Um those were required after the resoning was approved in 2015. Um and we'll go into the what the chapters are in the master plan also the small area plan agreements um there's a section in this master plan talking about small area plans but there was additional details needed. So um that was updated twice in 2015 as well. Um the elements there's 12 of them they were required after the 2015 approval as well. So, those have been approved uh over the years. And the North Village Small Area Plan, was it originally approved in 2021? Um, and now we're working on the South Village small area plan.

Yes, sir. Just for a quick question, Teresa. The the the small area plan that was approved for the North Village. Yes. How many acres was that? Approximately 2,000.

2,000. Okay. um planning board once they receive the actual small area plan, they have 60 days to review that and make a recommendation to go to the town board. Um our goal is to try and have a small area plan ready for them to start reviewing this month. Once the board of commissioners is ready to review the small area plan, um the two requirements are at least two weeks prior to when you make a decision, we have to have public input comments, which we've been having that for months now. Um and also public input at that meeting that you decide. So again, we've been doing that for months as well. and staff will compile all the public input that we've received thus far um in your packet. Next slide. We went back to the master plan. Um there's a lot of background information on those first five sections. says elements, but they're referring to what is uh required in the elements when they're actually drafted. So, um again, the small area plan it there's a chapter on that and uh details provided in the small area plan agreements. Next slide. And here's the elements. Um, so you could think of the in 2015 the board of commissioners approved a conditional resoning, but this is for 7,000 acres, not like what you typically would see 100 to few hundred acres max. Um so the detail that was provided in 2015

wasn't enough to have uh sufficient information um on the smaller areas in Chattam Park. So that's why the decision was we're review we're approving you now and we'd like to see you come back again. We'd like to see all these additional elements, which is basically like the chapters that you see in our UDO, but this is specific to Chattam Park. That was required back in 2015 because we didn't have a UDO back then. We had probably six or seven outdated freestanding ordinances. Um like the zoning ordinance hadn't been updated at that point, like since the '9s really. Um, so Chattam Park then drafted and the town board reviewed and eventually approved all of these elements. Um, there's also an affordable housing element as well that's not on the list. So when we're reviewing plumary plats or site plans, we go by what the standards are in these elements. Um, we also look at the master plan,

the the town's standards like engineering standards, uh, specifications, they're required as well when we're reviewing Chattam Park. Anything that's not covered in all of that, we then refer to the UDO. So, the majority of what we we're looking at standards wise is um, in these elements questions. So the uh if there is a disagreement or if there there's talk about the UDO again and how that plays into this I just want to be clear. Uh how how does the UDO play into this agreement? Is it be when there is nothing defined we revert back to the UDO? Is that

Yes, sir. If there's um an element that we're reviewing in a site plan and it's not covered by either the uh the additional elements um and we have a standard on it uh well greenways for example um specifications for greenways how thick the pavement should be. We would look at the town standards for that. So the these elements don't the greenway is not in those elements right the elements then you refer refer back to our own UDO for the specs for the other um greenways are in public facilities though I believe they are

the requirement of them

the elements and it's it's also there's more detail given in the small area plan um and then which we'll talk about in a little bit the section design plans have even more detail than that. So, um, preliminary plats, the the review process for plumary plats, that's not covered anywhere for China park. So, that's something that we would look at the UDO for as another example. So 2015 a lot of the basic zoning approvals were done. So this was the land use plan map. Um the yellow is residential, orange is residential mixed use, red is uh mixed use, blue is research and development and the purple are the activity centers. This was identified back in 2015. knowing that it could be updated with additional plans such as the small area plan um that can supersede what was already approved in uh 2015 in the elements um in the development agreement as well. Everything north of 64 business east is the north village which I said is about 2,000 acres. Everything south of 64 business east is the south village which is approximately 5,000 acres. So like the north village that received small area plan approval already, the south village has not yet. Here's an example of how uh the plans have changed slightly since 2015 to 2023. Um the small area plan you can see the sections uh boundaries have changed

and um the uses have somewhat changed. The activity center has more defined boundaries. Um overall it's it's pretty similar though from what was identified in 2015. So the master plan that was agreed upon didn't have these details. Is that correct that the the south the north village is supplying? It did have some of them. So there's a the original land use map, right?

Um which was on a couple slides ago that also includes a permitted table of uses. So, just like we have in the UDO, all of the uses that are allowed in each section, that was already decided back in 2015. So, um I'll explain a little bit more in some upcoming slides with the small the purpose of the small area plan, but it's just to give us a little more direction in what we should see development look like in the future. That's

kind of like a town's land use plan. And here's the South Village. On the left is what was approved in 2015. On the right is the draft that's on the town website currently um for the South Village. So again, you can see some changes. Pretty similar though overall. going to um the purpose of the small area plan. These bullet points are taken from the master plan and the small area plan agreement. So this was already decided on being the purpose. First is that the small area plan shall reasonably reflect the anticipated needs and services for the development in that area and the methods proposed provide the same. Um, the small area plan shall be acceptable to the town. The intent is for the small area plans to contain more specific information about proposed development than what is included in the master plan. And it's also that small area plans will not contain as much detail as you would see in like a site plan or subdivision plary plot. That's more sight specific. Um, and that's typical for conditional resonings. When y'all look at a conditional resoning, which you've seen many of them, unless it's just one lot, you typically do not see sight specific development plans at that level. you have an idea of what they're proposing, the uses, um the general locations of them, and then staff at that point works with the applicant at an administrative level to put the design

together based on all of our standards. So, we look at our UDO and our specs. And this is I'm giving an example outside of Chattam Park, but um when the CZ is done, the developer has some more direction on what they can do. Then they move forward with the more detailed plans. That's when staff usually gets involved. And uh you have the administrative level plary platin site plans. So, the site plans don't go to the town board at all. town staff that approves them. Preliminary plats go to you. Um, but it's an administrative level. So, it's kind of like checking the boxes at that point. So, the small area plan should be somewhere in between what you would see the master plan level in 2015 compared to sight specific level. And a small area plan may include one or more of the 27 areas identified in the master plan. Um that sentence is taken from the agreement from 2015. And the small area plan is also a legislative process for review and approval as determined by the town. So it's discretionary similar to conditional resoning. So these this is an agreement between the town and Chattam Park that was done in 2015. Is that correct? That those that language that we just saw.

I don't I don't think it's accurate to call that an agreement. Okay. It's legislative policy. Tell me about Can we talk about that for a minute?

Sure. Yeah. Here you go. Here's copies. Um it is the small area plan approval process and it was um deliberated and and passed by uh two of our current members in 2015 before I joined. Um I'm sure that Chhattam Park Investors had input on its drafting. Um, but it is legislative. It is this town's legislative policy. So, is there something specifically different than what's on the screen

in this document?

Uh, the one or more I think of more as an interpretation of the language in here. Um, and I I think it's it's I think if this board pressed for u an interpretation that was more in line with emphasizing the uh detailed and multiple small area plans. I'm pretty confident that any court of law would uh stand with the town's interpretation rather than one or more. When I refer to an agreement, I was talking about the original one. So, you saw on the screen there were two dates. There was an original agreement. Um, and it has an ordinance number if I remember correctly. So, it was an official agreement. Uh, it was updated for the to include the process for review and that was done more as like a memo. But um this is like a this is this is it basically retyped but the original that has like the

you have the same document. Yes sir. Okay. So this is a someone typed this up. Um it's not the original document which I don't have those right in front of me but um I could share them with you as well.

I would really appreciate it. I think it would also be very helpful if it was actually on the website. Um because the document that I have is in my personal files that was derived from the website before the website was rebuilt. I don't think this document is on the website. Um and I've heard rumors that it's been modified or revised. Um and that's very concerning. Um, the memo that I have came under the letterhead of Roger Walden, who was our acting uh, interim planner at the time because Stuart Bass had just recently left. Um, so yes, we can put that on the website.

That'd be great. You whatever version you're working off of and let's make sure it's the same one that I've got. This is critical. Thank you. Because there there's there's a On one side of the coin, I have this vision of what the South Village should be. On the other side, uh, is an agreement. And it's critical that we understand if the agreement on the screen here is an accurate agreement. Well, I think we need to honor the the original agreement, whatever it is.

No, I I I certainly want to stand up for Theresa Thompson. I don't think there's any disagreement about the accuracy of what's up here. I think that one or more that phrase I would question that because uh that is not emphasized and not explicit in this document that I've just provided to you. Okay. The the document that Commissioner Frell and Commissioner Baldwin voted on in 2015. Just just clear that bullet word for word what's in the agreement. But the I guess some that's word for word one or more the first paragraph on page three

document says a small area plan application may include one or more of the 27 small areas identified exactly right okay and I think I think the the understanding the interpretation of that is if Chattam Park Investors wants to to bundle a couple of sections that are side by side to submit under one small area plan. That makes sense. But sounds like the spirit of it. I'm sorry. That certainly sounds like the spirit of it.

Spirit of it indeed. Yeah. Uh it I don't think anybody I don't I don't know. Commissioner Pharaoh, Commissioner Baldwin, when when you were voting on it, did you contemplate that that they would be tossing in every single section for the South Village into one small area plan? John, with due respect, 10 years ago, I'm sorry I can't remember, but if you can remember what you did 10 years ago, go for it. I hear you. I'm Yeah. No, I do not. Minutes.

Yeah, there should be minutes of these meetings. All these meetings were all these meetings that we had, there are minutesless, but we can refer back to the minutes of that if you want to find out this that and the other. Now as for the additional elements that goes back to a small task force that was actually or a group a committee that was organized of which myself and Michael Fioco was that and those elements definitely came from that committee

and then we presented that to Chattam Park because initially there was no additional elements in them in the plan at all. That was something that we deter that we discussed as a committee and came up with and presented to Chattam Park so we could have a way of looking at things to make sure that everything was going to work the way we wanted to work. Okay. In reference to the town and the development. So that was something that was not in the was not in there.

Okay. But again, there are minutes of these meetings and we need to do that certainly and I appreciate you Teresa for doing all of this uh to go back to those particular minutes and actually review that. How many small areas were in the north village? 11 12 or 13 by my count because there's some uncertainty with the way that the sections were drawn um whether or not it was it was something like 11 A and 11B. Yeah, originally 11

but but with the sublet lettering 11 A and 11 B and and and in no way this is a statement of support for one large plan in the in the south. But when you have 11 sections in one small area plan in the north, you somewhat set precedent there for at least 11. I objected at the time. Yeah. And I think this one is 16. So anyway, for what for whatever that's for sorry to interrupt you. No, not at all. And this is what this important this is important.

We can talk more about the purpose of the small area plan. I think that uh topic will come back up again throughout the presentation. So

um and there's more I can say to it as well. Next slide. Um the requirements for this monary plan there's three slides on this first set of requirements basically a lot of existing conditions um topography and such. Next slide. What's actually required in the small area plan? When we first receive it, we go through the whole plan and basically check the box if these items are in there or not. Um, and if they're in there, we say yes and that it's a complete submitt. We're not saying at the time that staff thinks it's sufficient or, you know, that we're approving it obviously at that time. We're just saying like, yes, these are in here. Um, and with it being a 5,000 acre small area plan, uh, staff did does not determine that we have the level of detail needed on all of these items. So that's why in reviewing the small area plan with Chattam Park, um same thing with the north village staff's recommendation to the town board is if you are going to approve a a large area for the small area plan, uh staff recommends for it to be conceptual. And uh there were some lessons learned on the north village in the process of reviewing um the different plans as the development occurred. And that's why staff recommends these additional steps for section design plan approvals to mitigate that and and make it better.

Can we talk about the word conceptual and what that means uh in a practical uh manner? U let's say um Chad Park wants to do one thing and the town says no. Where does conceptual go? Where does that fit in this process? It's actual um is the same type of interpretation that you would have for the town's land use plan. Okay. Okay.

So, it's uh it's a it's a plan for the whole town, which currently is uh over 4,000 acres, and it has all of the same types of uh issues that we're looking at infrastructure-wise, land use wise that we are in the small area plan for Chattam Park. It is a 15 to 20 year out 30 year out plan. So it's you know has to be conceptual similar. Exactly. So when you make decisions like resoning decisions um you look at the land use plan and you take into account everything that was done to have a comprehensive cohesive plan drafted. But as time goes on um there might be additional conditions or community needs have changed. So you're you're not tied 100% to that plan.

What's empowering to the staff? Yes, sir. So like the way that we put the design plan language together is staff would be looking at uh the small area plan for consistency. The same thing that we do for the town's land use plan. And uh if we deviate from that, there needs to be a reason for it. Same thing with the land use plan. And by state law, if you deviate from the town's land use plan, you actually have to update it. Okay,

that that was with the 160D changes. So, um it's it's a similar concept to that. And uh staff from the planners uh point of view, having a large area that's planned out, you know, as Chattam Park is a planned unit development, it's just the largest ever in the state. Um that's a good thing. Because what towns typically get are peacemeal developments one at a time like 100 acres here, 50 acres here, 300 here. And you don't see that interconnectivity. You don't see how the you can plan, you know, 30 years in advance for infrastructure for 5,000 acres. So from a town planner's perspective, it's amazing, you know, to have that tool. Um again

put the roads where you want, you can put the sewer where you want. Yeah. In a van and then Chhatten Park then can plan Yes. conceptually. Yeah. What to do with the inbetweens.

Well, the Chattam Park is tying themselves to the small area plan. So, what they're putting in there is what they've agreed to do. With the understanding as we get more detailed um or updated rather section design plans, there could be some changes needed, but um it's going to be more practical changes than anything else. It's not going to be the town thinks we need like a a water park or something, you know, it would be something that would uh be based on issues that come up. But we do reserve the right to ask Chattam Park to build a water park though. But conceptually I think a good example is street typicals. So in the north village there's I don't say a disagreement but there's a bit of a a thought that the street typicals in the north village are the options for Chattam Park that they get to choose from. So the street typicals in the south village we said are conceptual. So there are examples of what street typicals they could use, but staff can recommend a deviation from that. A good example is Vine Parkway. They ran that um median down the middle of it and that has caused some concern from public safety response because they have to

turn around, right? And so that 30 or 20 years from now, there may be a road typical that no one's considered yet that we want to implement. So, it gives the staff some flexibility to say, "No, we'd rather have the 10-ft path here, not a median here or, you know, an additional turn lane or all different kinds of options that we just don't know if we need."

So, let's talk about something more specific that's uh somebody mentioned in the uh public uh uh opinion section uh about slopes and how parks shouldn't be built on steep slopes. Can can you address that and how conceptual plans can can mitigate issues like problems with that? Like for instance, let's let's say Chattam Park, I'm going to give you this land, but you find out it's all steep gullies and it's not parkland at all. So,

we have a slopes map already in the existing conditions. It's all in an agreement.

Well, yes. And it it shows where the steep slopes are. And our third party consultant that looked at the uh proposed park locations um over months and months of town staff going over the options uh with Chattam Park and with the consultant um meets it should meet the slope standards. Um, if there's some parts of the park that have like a 15% slope or something like that and we can make it work, sure. But again, with the the benefit of the small area plan being conceptual is in the future if the if the town says, "Well, we need a park that includes

a water park." A water park. Yeah. Then we need, you know, a certain slope for that. And if it doesn't have it, then we can look at other areas. We're not 100% tied to it, but no, it wouldn't be a water park. It would be something like uh ball fields or something like that. And in this version, they have agreed to meet the UDO standard for slope. So like the original master plan or elements uh 20% slope and the UDO is 15. So they have agreed in the south village to to meet the UDO requirements which is an example of how if there is no agreement you go back revert back to the UDO. Is that also what you said earlier?

So they they have a 20% slope map but I'm pretty sure in 2015 they didn't even have a slopes requirement. Okay. So with the south village southern v south village we are looking at 15% payback. Okay. Um but yeah, going back to it being conceptual, the town can in the future require the location of a park be changed. Okay.

It would need to be based on, you know, actual uh issues that are that come up at that time when we get let's say more detailed plans or surveys. Um so there's some wiggle room there. there there was a lot of planning done in what Chattam Park has proposed and again with it going to that 5,000 acre viewpoint of all of the parks not just the major parks um proposed parks you can see how all the different parts of the south village connect and it overall it that's what creates a more vibrant cohesive community versus if if it were peacemilled which um child park could do that too with the small area plans and not have gone through let's say that the next slide actually you can go to and I'll make that point. Um so it's required to have models done and since we're doing this at the 5,000 acre size we were able to model all of it and plan for the entire area. So, for transportation modeling, um, uh, Chattam Park is proposing all the major roads and, uh, it's RK that's reviewing it. um they've submitted their a few questions and they're that's still being worked on, but we will know that for the entire 5,000 acres, the major roads that are um shown illustrated in the in the small area plan will adequately be able to handle that capacity, that feature trips per day capacity. Um, same thing with water and sewer. Tri river has hired a consultant that's reviewing

that model. And then our fi financial impact analysis, we're reviewing that in house. So, there's a benefit for being able to do that for 5,000 acres versus uh if we did small area plans um 16 times. Yeah, we would get the models for each one of those, but not necessarily the benefit of seeing how it would all connect and having that agreed upon in the beginning. Teresa, I I keep hearing this uh notion that if we ask for small area plans as they were originally conceived in the master plan being iterative and multiple that we're going to somehow lose a scale of planning that the town and the developers desire. And I just wanna I w to squash this completely because I think it's it's a misunderstanding and I don't think it's accurate. Chuck Smith, Robin, you guys are accomplished planners. You know what you're doing. There is a difference between the private planning you do in house and the small area plan process, which is public planning. There's a big difference here, friends. I've heard you say, Chuck, well, well, we have to do it this way. I know you're already doing it this way and it's it's misleading to suggest that in the process of small area planning that you can't carry over this scale, this comprehension of the whole 5,000 acres plus Route 1 and 15501 and the town north of Highway 64. It's misleading, friends. We know for a fact that you do this

planning already because you've planned the Chattam Parkway South. You've planned this very significant sewer project. We know you're doing this planning at large scale. So to suggest that that the town asking you to deliver the small area plans as they were originally conceived iteratively time. It's not it's misleading and it's not fair because we are going to lose a tremendous amount of improvement that none of us in the room right now can predict what happens 30 years from now, 40 years from now. The challenges that this board would face decades into the future. None of us can predict any of those challenges. So we need to preserve, this board needs to preserve the rights of people in these seats 15, 20, 25, 40 years from now to address the challenges that we can't begin to comprehend. We need to preserve the prerogative and leverage and power of this governing board by denying the idea of a 5,000 acre small area plan. We need these smaller small area plans. Whatever they are, I'm open to that negotiation. I understand the Chattam Park investors have a very significant deal of foot for a,200 acre golf course golf course community. I think that would be a starting point. They bring that. Let's pass a 12,200 acre small area plan and then let's proceed with the rest of the project. Let's let's look at it in an incre

incremental and and iterative way so that we go stepwise and we don't give up future board's ability to ask for difficult things for many of the decisions that we have had during my almost four years of sitting here I have felt like the decision was made before I ever got that's very frustrating and I do feel like we need to preserve the decision-m authority of the people that we put in these seats, not just give it away and pave over it, which is what I feel like this is doing. Personally, I'd like to see this broken up into three iterations with 6 to 12 months in between. I think that would be plenty fair. It gives future board members a chance to get in to have some input. I think that's reasonable. We we do have a review. It's in the uh I'm not the provision in the first page or two of the additional elements. a required annual review between staff and board and Chattam Park with any discrepancies that from the past or the hopefully future. It's in the master plan.

That's exactly right, Commissioner Fair. Those annual meetings are happening. Have you ever been invited to one? I've never been invited to one. governing board concerns. Some of these issues that have came to us are are staff related and staff has took care of them and reported to us.

I understand and staff staff have done a fantastic job so far. I'd say the one really big miss uh that we all missed was the division of the Northwoods neighborhood and the country route Brown Road. And that happened after the 2021 passage of the first small area plan. And that was in 2023 where it really finally hit the fan. Um, I'm not saying that we can predict those kinds of things and and prevent those kinds of things happening again, but I think it's a great example of something that none of us could have imagined in 2021. And when I'm 90, I don't want people cursing me saying I I gave away the store in in 2025. So, um, staff play a very specific role and the governing board plays a specific role. Staff do what they're told based on the law and the ordinances and the agreements that are that are codified and and voted on by this board. But that needs to change over time because there's always things that are going to be uh unpredictable and storm water. We're we're going to have worse worse headaches with that in the future. We know that storms are becoming more severe and and more intense. Um but to that fact,

yeah, we had county roads is not a house owned out. So, you know, it's not all about development washing out roads and storm water. There was numerous Chattam County roads that were washed completely out and didn't have house on them. No development, you know, and I think, you know, we do have examples of changes to things over time as a result of those reviews like the North Village Farm area plan and the affordable housing additional element. another additional element as well that we modify

which one but um so I think you know that process is in place for iterative changes similar to what we do to UDO um and continue to update and keep it relevant and I think that that also applies to what was imagined 10 years ago as or or longer ago as the process for approving this and what a small area plan was and um I think the concept now of of section plans and coming back because I think you know what what you said is is accurate. I've heard a different side of it and that Chattam Park is doing their planning. They're working with developers. They're they're making plans that we don't often hear about until later. So I think this is a method that uh Teresa and other staff have come up with to work more closely with Chhattam Park and learn more about those plans at a different stage in development. um when it is providing better information to the town about more specific development. Um and I think that may be what the small area plans were originally imagined to do, but I think that the way that the requirements are uh there's a large what I would call like level of detail scope required um for the small area plants. And so it's not just the roads to have some cuz part of this board is have some confidence that those the roads that Shadow Park is imagining are not going to go through a neighborhood again. And that's what um you know some people are looking for that shity of where that road is is going to go

where fire stations are going to go that we don't get boxed out of of the good land. Um parks same thing like you mentioned the slopes on the parks and things like that. this this gives that level of planning and also more detail later. Um, and I think that it's it's important to, you know, look at the decisions that were made in the past and also look at the reality of what we know today and what we experience with the North Village small area plan and modifying it um, with UNCC property shifting and and things like that. we we have that experience and that process of those changes overall. Um and I to me this is some it's it's not directly applicable because this smaller plan process developed for this PDD is unique anywhere of course but uh when we were working on the UDO and it was really difficult to get that through the initial time we we broke it up and worked on the critical pieces and then came back to the other pieces and to me that's a analogous to what staff is working with these section plans. Now,

um I appreciate your attempt at an analogy, but I think it falls apart, mayorship, uh especially because the UDO is still largely incomplete in my opinion with no no section on trees, tree cover specimen tree protection. Uh we deleted the conservation overlay and I deeply regret that we've not come back to that. also. So, um yeah. Um but, uh I think I will speak to this this idea of maybe this is jumping ahead a little bit, but um the section design plan. Um um go to those slides if you'd like. I mean, what's next? Do you have any further questions about the concept notion?

Well, let's go. The next slide is about the conceptual and about

Okay. So, um yeah, if if the board was open for this to be a conceptual plan, um we would recommend there be language that says that the small area plan is a guide for how development could occur. um it's not considered final or the only way it may occur uh presents concepts and guidance that may vary as actual development unfolds and that before plinary plat or site plans are approved uh the shadow park shall submit the section design plan um for staff to review. Uh you can go to the next slide. We'd also look at having um updates, town park providing updates to the town board. Well, actually it would be the planning department working with town park and then look aheads of the next year. Um the so staff's concern with uh development as it occurs in the future um beyond like the general layout which I think the this 5,000 acre small area plan gives you a general layout of uh the roads and the different uses and um parks and things like that. So if if the board is amunable to that staff's more concerned with the standards and I think that's been mentioned a couple of times from the board as well. So uh we want to make sure that there's language that the elements will be updated as needed. Um and that we will make sure that all of the town standards uh engineering specs as well are updated to for Chattam Park to have to um meet in the future. However, that

changes and is updated. So whatever's in place now uh might not address all the issues 10 years from now. So we'll make sure that the elements and the standards are updated to meet that. Um so that would be an additional uh recommendation and next slide. Um so this is just items that would be providing the look ahead. Next one and the annual updates. I don't think everyone's as interested in that. Um so in the actual

I do let's go through some of those items because I do think I think what you're adding to be you're suggesting to be adding to be specific about these annual updates is something that's come up about you know sometimes the updates have been a a video update but this gets a lot more prescriptive about economic impact and and other things are included in it. So I do think

like so staff's staff's recommendations on the look aheads and the updates we we feel like there needs to be um better coordination with Chattam Park in the South Village that uh and it's not for any reason that was I think intentional. It's just when there's so much development going on, um it's hard to keep up with what what's being proposed and talking about it in advance. So, if we make it a requirement to do so, um that's just going to help ensure that when we get to the plural platin site plan step that all of these major issues have already been addressed.

We keep that. Is this a staffing issue then? Are you saying we we can't get to it because we're busy or what what exactly do you mean? It's part of it. Yes. I mean, it's Okay. So, a small town with as much development permits going on as city like mediumsiz large city to be honest. So, yeah. Okay. That is an issue. Um one I'd take the opportunity to address that county too. last year and correct me if I'm wrong but 50% of the permits in Chattam County were in Pittsburgh and our staff is about half the size of the county planning department.

It's less than half. We're we're doing the same amount of work with less than of the people and uh and and to the planning department engineering like we had gotten almost all reviews down to 30 days for initial review. So we were doing great work but it is a lot. Mhm. opportunity there as a pitch. Yeah. Maybe

as there's additional tax revenues in the upcoming years, obviously additional staff will be hired, but um we still want to make sure that it's required that before plans are submitted to the town that we have been working with them on it because by the time you get to the plary platter or site plan stage, things are kind of more uh you know ironed out in place.

Yeah. a lot a lot of money has been spent and time has been spent on engineering. Um, and it's it's a lot harder to change things at that point. So, we've noticed that some in the North Village. We just want to mitigate that in the South Village. And we thought this would be a good opportunity to um require some additional steps for the approval of the small plan. So, um, and again, I'm not I'm not trying to recommend approving it. I'm giving you pros and cons for approving it um as a 5,000 acre small area plan. So staff does see a lot of benefits in it.

So what are the can you give me a benefit analysis of breaking it up into like three pieces? What what are the positives for that and what are the negatives in your opinion? I know this is just how about how about we stick with the four four and a half or five that you have conceived with your requirement that section development plans be lumped no more than four at a time. What are the benefits to that? Commissioner Bonnets, let's let Commissioner Foley ask his question. Okay.

And he can follow up maybe. My original question was and the the benefit the the pluses and minus of of of from the town's perspective from the town staff perspective of of confirming the whole thing at once or breaking up into three or four parts. This is just my

opinion professional, but um I would say that when you break it down to three or four plans versus one, um the a negative to that is no one Chattam Park is not being tied to a larger plan at that point. So we'll we'll get a section a small area plan for this one section. we don't know exactly what they're going to propose in the future. So that kind of takes away a little bit of the being, you know, not being able to have that um shity of, you know, this is this is what we should expect to see. Uh so it's easier to plan when you when you can do that. Um something else I just based on seeing plans over the years and they do change somewhat but you know unless there's like a huge shift in the economy or market I I don't foresee huge changes um in the future based on what we're looking at right now with this 5,000 acre small area plan. Uh also for the developer, they they are looking to find uh companies and businesses that want to develop in Chattam Park. I feel like that would be more difficult to do without them knowing that this this layout has already been approved, at least conceptually, by the town. um they don't have that shy and this board is making a decision, a legislative decision um looking at the small area plan and uh you you know what your your needs are um and the the issues that are

with the town, but with it being a legislative decision for the future small area plans, that's also very difficult for a developer to do because they're they're wanting to plan out the infrastructure and everything else in advance. So, when you have the unsurity about it being legislative, um a future board might have concerns that might be completely something that this board would never even think would be a concern, if that makes sense. So, you know, it's it's just setting the path down to getting an idea of the overall layout and then working with staff to iron out the issues like storm water and such if they do need a change in the future, having a method to be able to do that. Um, and then the coordination with with staff in advance so that we're not just, you know, arguing at the 11th hour what a street typical should be. pros and cons.

Yeah. And we'll have a good idea where all the parks are going to go. We now know where all of our fire stations will go in the South Village. Those are two big ones that we had to I felt like were big problems when I when y'all hired me. We had no idea where fire stations were going. Now we know where all four of them are going to go.

And you'll see in the one of the slides coming up um on what the requirements are in the section design plans. The one that is still discretionary by the board is public facilities. So the parks and greenways and um things like that, schools, you still have you would still have that conversation with them and uh be able to say this is where we needed to go. Everything else would be worked out more at the administrative level. So you know, pros and cons to that as well. So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not read anything in the master plan or in the small area plan approval process uh or in the prior small village uh north village small area plan that prohibits a small area plan from considering matters beyond its boundary. In fact, this small area plan village for for the north village does contemplate things outside of the north village. There are some overlaps into the map down into the south village. Some of those things have changed, but I don't think there's any reason why a small area plan for a 1,200 acre section of the South Village, why can't it have a map that references the entire 5,000 acres while focusing on the 1200 acres? Why for for the purposes of transportation can it not and should it not contemplate the areas beyond 1,200 acres? That's the beauty of of as you say this this developer and their ability to plan large.

So it's it's not required and um if you're not actually approving those other areas, right, it's just a pretty drawing. It doesn't mean anything. That's right. But it it informs the process what you said earlier. We we would

not the teeth would be to that section of 1,200 acres and the the reference to larger transportation planning outside of that 1,200 acres would be informative, not it would be conceptual. It wouldn't be um vested. It wouldn't be required. It's a little I mean I see what you're saying and I see the I see how there's benefits to that as well. So just just for clarity though, what the difference in conceptual and what you're saying versus what would be approved with this 5,000 acre small area plan is Chattam Park is tied to this design and it's staff is reviewing it for consistency. So we are looking at the overall layout you know 101 15 years from now which it can be updated but um if we're going to change it there has to be a reason for it. So versus what you're saying conceptual those other areas outside that one small area plan that's being reviewed nobody's tied to any of that the town nor Chattam Park. So again, you know,

except that they have they have investors and and they are indeed tying their plans to how many sewer pump stations they're going to have outside of that acres. And

a lot of certainty there that uh you know that uh is is is very much certainty from a business standpoint. But again, there's the difference between public planning and private planning. And uh I I really appreciate Terresa Thompson how hard you have worked on this effort and Jonathan Franklin and other staffers in order to in my opinion I'm characterizing it as kind of um pulling the teeth out of the small area plan um as it's been drafted and delivered to you. But all of this effort evades the spirit of this document which is iterative and uh careful reflective planning over time with 16 sections in the south village and that's as many opportunities as 16 times for future governing boards to say to Chattam Park investors that's a really lovely plan. Those are great ideas, but you really haven't addressed this really pressing problem that the people 15 years ago, back in 2025, never imagined that problem. It's really vital that staff understand the role of the governing board and that by proposing or even supporting the idea of a 5,000 acre small area plan. It's it's semantically incorrect, friends. It's not small. So, it's you're you're you're you're suggesting that this governing board should give up the power of people 40 years from now. And I understand how challenging your your task has been, but uh it's it's not a good situation that we're in.

level of detail that you need at this point because if it's the level that you would expect to have it for a 5,000 acre small area plan, then that's what you have and that's what the next steps are for staff to to work out those details in the future. Um but yeah, in terms of small, it's it I think that's left up for different interpretations as well. When I worked in Moore County, we we did a small area plan for seven lakes in West End and it was 69,000 acres, but it was also just about, you know, 10% of the county. So in that terms it was small but again it wasn't the level of it was similar to what we're seeing today you know and I think that's what Mr. bonnets is possibly I think that's what you're saying is we're not seeing that level of detail that I think was um what the intent was at that time you know like we want to see the minor roads maybe right at that time we don't have that right now we just have the major roads

well we that's the question is what's the you know we don't even have a financial analysis we do this board does not the version that has been published uh it's on the website does not have a financial analysis. Okay, we'll make sure that um yeah and I've asked for the digital version that you sent uh to us in hard copy and I haven't gotten that. I'd very much appreciate having the most up-to-date version that you're considering right now. We just received one today. I have not had a chance to look at it but we'll make sure that gets out to you. So yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I have a South Village fiscal impact from 24

financial impact. I can send you all right now. I've had it for a while. I just forgot I had it. That would help us. Thank you. Or do you have a revised one you can send tomorrow? Tonight? You received one? Yes, sir. Um, well, the so the original draft we put on the website. Um, we haven't put every submitt on the website uh cuz we've been reviewing it. We wanted it to be um work out all the details so that the board wasn't reviewing, you know, every submitt over again.

Just so we know we haven't had a chance to review the one that was submitted today. So now, you know, we request it uh at your earliest convenience. Sure. Yeah, we'll get it to you as soon as we get the planning board packet put together. Okay,

Miss Thompson, I have a question, please. Over here where you were talking about conceptual small area plan, it does specifically state that is not intended to be considered final or the only way development may occur, but present concepts and guidance. Now, does that mean that basically future boards may be able to change what what we appro what may be approved. So since it's just a concept is that are I just need that clarified. Is it saying that future boards can make decisions in reference to this?

It's yes and it's more we're changing it though from legislative to administrative for the majority of it though. So that's the big difference is right now the entire plan is legislative right so the but if you approve this small area plan the future small area or the future section design plans will have uh more detail and staff will be looking at it more for the logistical standpoints you know and making sure those issues have been addressed because we've already looked at the overall design for the 5,000 acres. And then when we bring it the section design plan to the town board, uh staff will have a recommendation to either, you know, for the public facilities. We we think it needs to stay as it is shown

in the small area plan or we think it needs to change and the board can agree or disagree or but that is opportunity for the board in the future to look at it. Is it not correct? Yes. Yes. It's just not going to be if it's approved the way that is being um presented then uh it wouldn't be a completely discretionary decision. Right. It would and again there's pros and cons to that for I just clarify and the applicant I'm sorry I just wanted to clarify that also that it would come to you all to the planning board. I'm sorry, planning department with that specifics, right?

And then come back to the board and if the board does not agree with it, it can be they can vote it down. Is that what you're saying or are you saying that this puts these decisions in the hands of staff to make? So yes, um if Chhattam Park comes with a section design plan in the future and we compare it to the small area plan, we consider it consistent. staff also says that um there's an issue with a park location or something like that and we work out those details. The town board has complete discretion on that.

Well, the town board may not see many of these questions or decisions real time because they would probably be made in staff offices. Well, the um in a couple of slides it goes over what the requirements are. So before a section design plan's even submitted, um we would get like a very like a sketch type level drawing and go over that with the staff 3 to 6 months in advance. So we're working out the details. We're looking at the small area plan for consistency. We're also looking at the elements and the specs and you know what's the what's what should the cross-sections be? If it's congruent, it will get passed at the staff level.

We would give a recommendation for approval. to the town board for approval. So I would recommend so there's four more slides in your presentation that go into more specifics about

your recommendations. So I'd recommend that we go through those hold our questions and then and then continue on because we're getting into a lot of the topics are covered in the upcoming slides. Um so for the look aheads we were thinking um what the anticipated upcoming submitts are for the year. What's basically what's CH Park expecting? Economic development opportunities, roadways, Chattam uh park climate action plan updates, proposed public facilities. Uh so you know as as development occurs we'll have a better idea of if additional schools are going to be needed which I'm sure they will be um and where those would be located. Again, um those are the kind of uh conversations staff would be having with Chattam Park in advance and any adjacent parcel resonings and the annual updates what's been happening in Chattam Park. So that includes uh how much has been built. town parks vested for up to 22,000 dwelling units and 22 million square feet of non-residential um development. So where are we with that? Affordable housing element updates. Um, just speaking from the staff's perspective, that again, that's more uh of a concern from making sure that we're having high quality developments in the future is updating elements as needed. Um, tree preservation tracking, park updates, uh, greenways, transportation model updates, water sewer model updates, and sewer capacity management. And uh these were the

requirements for the section design plans. We'd like to see their proposed tracking sheets for that design plan section

versus it being more peace meal when we get them like for each preliminary plan. Um, we would also go through and reference what the requirements are, like where they come from. So, what ordinance or specification or element because it can get confusing with Chattam Parks, all the different um different types of documents that have been approved. Uh we want the agreement that would be approved if it's approved um for the section layout plan to um that it the intent is to foster early coordination with town staff on infrastructure and development components. It's to provide greater clarity where the small area plan remains conceptual and also streamline plary platite plan reviews. So again, if the way it is right now, we we're uh we're not given any information about what is being um developed until China Park is ready to submit the pluring plat or site plan. So at that point, let's say if a town engineer thinks it needs to be a different street cross-section, it's it's a lot more difficult to get that changed after all that design work has already been done at that level. So this way we can have that conversation early on. Um speaking to Chattam Park, they requested that we increase it to six sections uh or six uh center design plans can be submitted for each section. Um

yeah, I think that's a typo. It was four. Park may submit up to six at a time. each as part of each section design plan. That's new since Friday. Yeah. That it was six sections. It's minimum or maximum, sorry, Chattam Park shall not submit more than six section design plans per section. That's what

Yeah, because it says the South Village, I can word it better, but the South Village is divided into 16 sections and Chattam Park may submit up to six sections for each of those 16. That's the way it's But I can fix the wording. The idea there is The idea there is if you you've got uh 16 sections, right? What we don't want the whole the whole point of this is for us to get kind of a 20,000 foot view of what that area is going to look like. So if they have unlimited section design plans, they could submit a 100.

Every time they have a site, they could submit one. And that gets away from the whole point of this. So we had started with four. Um Robbie and Chuck were explaining some I think some good examples of how four may be too few because we looked at the sections and what the different acreages is and in with six I think that gets it down to like 20 or 40 acre kind of snapshots of what they plan to do for that section for that section of that section. um to the idea is again not to see the commercial sections be turned in peace mill one site at a time but to give us kind of a broader scope of what's coming. Now some of that um is going to be cartoon and is going to kind of just be what it could be but still that gives staff and the board a look at what that area of town may look like in the future.

But there's only 16 sections alto together. Correct. So, uh, that could mean that there are as few as three section design plan processes for the remainder of the 5,000 acre. Well, I think there's language in here, too, that prevents it says they can submit up to four sections in one section design plan. So, technically, the minimum would be four. The maximum would be uh was that 96? Six. Oh, yeah. So from a SAS perspective, that's not a bad thing. By the way, if they had that level of detail ready to get approved, then I don't think that's realistic. But

I'm going to interrupt you again and I'm going to say I appreciate that it's easier for you to pen with that broader perspective. And do you understand my perspective that this is a thwarting of the governing board's power? I mean, either we have one opportunity to vote on 5,000 acres or we have as few as three opportunities to vote on section design plans over the next 40 years. Or we go back to what was conceived in the master plan, which was 16 small areas and 16 opportunities for governing boards in the future to have public input processes, to have deliberation, to have the opportunity to say to Tim Smith and Bubberall and and Chuck and the gang, it's a beautiful plan and it really doesn't meet the needs of what our voters are clamoring for whatever that future problem is that none of us can can imagine today.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was simply responding to the statement that if they submitted four plans and they were at the level of detail that the board needed to make an approval, that's not necessarily a bad thing because they would know this is how it's going to be developed. We looked at everything and when we go to approve a plenary platter site plan, we have that document to go to go on. As I was saying, that's not really realistic because no developer is going to know specifically what they're going to develop for, you know, thousands of acres. So, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just speaking to that statement.

Commissioner Bance, just one thing. Um, I understand what you're talking about for the future boards. Uh, Pam and myself, Mr. Bo and all that was one of the first statements that we put in the master plan. My question is what if we went back and ref rephrase this look ahead annual look ahead put more specific um ordinances in or duties and then had it anything that came had to come to the board. is staff level, but it still should be approved by the board or either reviewed at least by the board. That's what

I appreciate that idea and I think that's what's already happening, but it's the conversations start at staff level rather than the board driving those conversations. And so it really is a separation between the power of the people, the people who elect us and staff who are just working within the guidelines of the the the lines on the playing field and the rules of the game which are dictated by all these documents. Whereas if we if we stick with this idea that there's 16 small area plans and maybe we'll let them combine four at a time in future that's that many more opportunities for the public citizens for people who aren't even the public but we know them and love them because they live in Monure and they shop they they they frequent stores and businesses in town and we respect their concerns and opinions and they can come to us 20 years or people who are sitting in these seats 20 years from now with a concern that was never imagined in all these documents and if we have made these decisions today I fear that we're undermining the ability of people in the future citizen uh uh servants of the citizens to address that. I kind of disagree a little bit with you. If if we have an annual review and look ahead with staff and board and if if Mr. Messik has to put it in more legal terms that this is what is going to happen that should cover future boards. Um I'm just throwing that out. I'm just up for suggestions.

I like I like it. I like that idea. Um that gives power to uh the argument the argument is the commissioners what about commissioners in the future and you both understand that very well um but I I see that so far there haven't been many hiccups we with chatter we have a very I'd say fortunate staff that are professional and and give us the information that we can use to make a decision for our citizens. So that's how I feel about that and I thank you for all your work.

Thank you.

Um so the last three bullets if it were to be approved uh staff is saying that the plan will be the small area plan would be reviewed for consistency. Um, and modifications to the similar area plan may be required to comply with updated town standards, regulations, or respond to change circumstances, emerging community needs, or evolving conditions. And an example of a modification from the conceptual small area plan would be uh street cross-sections, which we've used a few times, and proposed location and design of public facilities. Following town staff and planning board review and recommendation, each section design plan will be forwarded to the town board for final consideration. And this can change obviously. I mean, this is just uh staff's recommendation at this time. Again, uh staff is concerned with elements being updated over the years as needed. Uh what we've done in the past is as we're reviewing flaring plats and site plans, we have come up with a list of items that we want to address with Chattam Park have a workshop with them and um in

including the commissioners. Sorry, the workshop includes the commissioners. The the initially the workshop would that we discuss would just be between staff and Chattam Park staff to address the concerns that we know of. Come up with a solution together is ideally would be what we would do is come up with a solution together and then present it to the board. Something that staff and child parks already agreed on for the board to consider similar to the affordable housing element. But y'all were pretty y'all stayed pretty in tune to what was going on with that.

Um, so in the general provisions element, it does say that Town Park shall meet with the Pittsburgh Board of Commissioners at least annually um to review additional elements and discuss possible re revisions to improve the additional elements or the way in which they are applied to the development in Chattam Park. So that's where uh

is there language in there that says we have the ability to change it discuss possible revisions to improve. So does that allow us the power to would that supersede the uh the agreement between Chattam Park? Let's say that the board sees trees as as being an issue for instance or whatever whatever unseen issue is to come. Maybe we have storm water retention ponds that need to be bigger for 100year events or 500year events. Would we have the ability with this phrasing to apply leverage to Chattam Park?

Not in a way that is written out where we are required that they have to this is more of an update as opposed to a legislative yes endeavor. Anything that happens at this level is completely voluntary. Completely voluntary.

Whereas in future a small area plan approval process many years from now could be withheld from that. that approval could be withheld in order to ask for a much more serious consideration by the applicant of some dire concern, some urgent matter that the that the voters bring to us. That's true. Okay, thank you.

I think there's just one more slide. Um updating the EDO and specs. So staff also wants it to be clear that whatever um specifications China Park will be using, it will be whatever it is at that time they submit that specific development. Um, there was a development agreement approved uh back in 2021 that states that Chattam Park would just need to use the town standards in effect in 2021 uh for forever. So we just wanted it to be clear that it will be what was originally approved in the master plan which is that uh they have to abide by whatever the rules are in effect at that time. So 10 years from now whatever the rules are they need to follow those

okay that's important. If it's not covered in their other entitlements, okay, there's a gap, then they have to use the This is the UDO uh asterisk. They have standards specifications. Yes, sir. They've done pretty well adapting to some UDO changes that they weren't required to adapt to anyway. So, again, it's, you know, we went over pros and cons of everything. So you can decide. Can we go back to the one slide prior, please?

So how do we make this uh concrete? How do we It says shall meet. So shall meet means will meet, correct? And discuss possible revisions. Okay. So it's more of anformational session or we're powerless to change what's already been agreed. Correct. The way it's written. Yes, sir. Okay. No. Storm water is kind of the issue at people's minds, right? Considering what we've been through the last couple months, the the issue there is,

you know, this state statutes or what we have to follow in terms of like a reszoning. Um, now if we can get tighter restrictions in a conditional zoning, that's okay. Um, but even there, that's been a little tough of a conversation to have with folks, too. They're kind of like, you know, this is the state regs. Why would I or these are the CH uh the Jordan Lake rules? Um so that's a that's a that's a tough one.

I I did follow up if I might add to storm water. I followed up with the county. called the county uh and and spoke with the supervisor regarding storm water violations for Chattam Park and there were a number of them but substantially there was only one fine and that was right at the be beginning when this is what she shared when Mosaic was being built there was a bulldozer that would pushed over a stream and that person who did That was a grave mistake on his part. But Chattam Park was uh uh fined $10,000, she said. But I asked her, "What are they?" You know, most everybody gets cited citations and China Park has been very quick to mitigate those issues, she said. And she also said that she'd rather when it comes to storm water, she'd rather have u to deal with Chattam Park because they have deep pockets and they resolve issues very quickly than than go with smaller smaller developments whose bottom line is a little their their margin is a lot tighter. And she said that's it. I wanted to share that for storm water.

Let's say too, you know, I think all this relies on partnerships. It requires a agreement between the two parties like conditional zoning does. You know, for a change to industry two parties. Um, and obviously there's a lot of different feelings about chat park or different developers, but conditional zoning requires that as well. And I think in Pittsboro, we've been very successful in using conditional zoning to get exceptional uh development in this area, but that also relies on the legislature and the power that they give us. And my concern is how much power this table will have in the future. And I think agreements that we make now will likely hold up. And I think we're seeing the ability to make decisions in the future being limited. I don't know how long it's going to last. I don't want to comment really more about those politics, but like I I'm you know, conditional zoning is a good tool for us. Um zoning can be a good tool that we're not allowed to do anymore. Um, and so there's a lot of those things that are being controlled by the interest of the legislature. And so decisions and, you know, over and above agreements that we can make now are things that we can be sure will happen in the future is is uncertain about what a board will be allowed to do or or require.

Very good state. Very good. Tree protection is is one of those. water is one of those that it continues to be limited our ability to make those agreements.

Yeah, I recognize those concerns with regard to policym outside of the PDD, but within the PDD, it's a different matter. We have a relationship with the Chattam Park investors that is contractually bound by the development agreement. And if Tim Smith and Bubba Rall and this board of governors agreed that every single house from here on out should be pink, doesn't matter what the state legislature says. All those houses can be pink. It's a contractual arrangement. So, I I'm I'm less concerned about changes in legislation and more concerned about the fact that we are potentially giving up very significant power out of fear perhaps that the legislaturator is going to take it away. We're we we don't need to be giving up this this authority, this opportunity for people who we don't even know who's going to be sitting in these seats in the future. But there is state regulations that have to go by also.

The agreement can allow exceedence of those state regulations. There won't be less in the state. I I think that's right. That's correct. I think that's right. But it is contractual. Always be more, but it can't be less. Yeah.

Yeah. It is a contractual agreement. And I think we're already exceeding the limits. And in fact, Chop can probably elaborate or maybe staff about how u uh in particular their storm water in some instances is is quite a bit more rigorous than the state law uh allows. Um and and I appreciate that. Um but the concerns are what happens in between in those places where it's uh not quite as rigorous and robust. But um anyway, we've we've spent a lot of time on this. That's important. Yes, it is.

Staff um was hoping to get the feedback from from you all on if we're going in the right direction. And if we don't have that right now, that's okay. Um are we going to formalize that? you want to uh um how how do you want us to give you feedback? Tell me what's the process? Uh do you want to formalize a like let's get feedback within the next two weeks via email or how how would you like it?

Well, you you've provided us feedback. Um, but it sounds like we're going to continue with what staff recommendation is as of now and present that to the planning board as is, you know, recommended. And if that changes at all, I guess that will happen when we come back to the board and have additional conversations. I'm assuming. Can we talk big picture timing wise? What what's the approval process in your opinion? How will this what's it what's the the timing on dates?

We are going to well the goal is to present the small area plan to the planning board this month. Uh they would not have much time to review it. So I would think they would need an additional month before they would be willing to make a recommendation. So I think the earliest would be October for planning board recommendation. Um we can also uh come back to you next month and answer any questions you might have. Continue the conversation. Um you will have the small area plan though in advance as well. You know at the same time plan board gets it. Um present that in October. Then the earliest I I would foresee a decision by the town board would be November.

Is the planning board have a work session planned? Not that I'm aware of. It was talked about at the last meeting, but nothing formally has been requested. I think that'd be a really good thing to set up. A work section for work session for the planning board. I think I heard two of them ask for it. Yeah, I think they're hungry to dive into details.

Yeah, I'm sure they feel great weight and responsibility. So, working it out with under your guidance might be a a great thing to do. Uh up next we have a public hearing water parks. Next public hearing is on water park.

Unfortunately not. No. Uh so we have a public hearing on a resolution authorizing the filing of an application with the local government commission. So I'll take a motion to go into public hearing. So move. Thank you. Mayor Pro10 Baldwin second. Second. Commissioner votes. All those in favor say I. I. Um. Yeah. Has anybody signed up for the public hearing? Uh, no one has signed up for the public hearing. No.

Yeah. So, this is just um authorizing us to submit our application with the LGC for their meeting on October 7th to be approved for financing to purchase the Rafi building. I'll take a motion to close the public hearing. So move commissioner vos second. Second Tim Baldo. All those in favor say I. I. I. I. All right. Up next we have a resolution for installment loan financing for fiscal year 2526.

We need to adopt the need. to adopt resolution that goes with the public hearing. It is her first item as assistant town manager. So ask questions. Uh any questions? Uh I'll take a motion to adopt the resolution to authorize the filing of an application with the local government commission for approval of financing agreement. Thank you. Mayor Provos. All those in favor say I. I. Thank you.

Um up next we have a resolution for installment loan financing 2526. Yes. And this is the resolution need to adopt um for truis bank who is the lender that we um selected for um using to do the financing for the raffi building. they require their own resolution that we adopt authorized essentially saying that the board is agreeing to go into um uh an agreement with Truist Bank for this and then there will be an agreement that Jonathan will probably be the one to sign um when we close on the financing. Any questions on that?

Amount of the loan, the term of the loan, the interest rate on the loan are all in that resolution. Yes. Yeah. I move to approve the resolution approving financing terms from Truist Bank. Thank you. Is there a second? Second. All those in favor say I. I. I. All right. And now we have a budget amendment for the property purchase of 274 Pittsboro Elementary School Road. Any questions on this related item?

No. But I'm so pleased to see this um come about and I would be honored to make the motion to approve the budget ordinance amending the fiscal year 2526 operating budget for the purchase of 274 Pittsburgh Elementary School. Thank you. There second commissioner votes. All those in favor say I. I. I. All right. Up next we have a discussion on the welcome center financial support. So, got my name on.

Right. Right. We had a couple of BOC board commissioner uh members request this discussion pertaining to the town providing financial support to the welcome center uh attached. You will uh it's just an example of of a similar agreement that we have with the Boys and Girls Club. uh this type of agreement would be required u for that same type of financial support provision to the welcome center. Uh they provided you all a letter about the services being offered and the amount that they're requesting. We just put together what we could with the information we had for you all to have a discussion about how you want to proceed. There's not a staff recommendation. There is not a suggested motion. Uh, but if it is the board's fault to move forward with this, I would probably say you would just uh ask me to go negotiate the the terms of the agreement and then bring that back for for your consideration at the October.

Right. Thank you. I I would like to invite Greg Lewis up if that's okay. I just had one. How would this be dispersed in quarterly payments or probably the exact same way we do Boys and Girls Club? So quarterly. Yeah. Okay. they would have to submit quarterly financials, quarterly updates on what they're doing and then that would kind of that would be the the check for then uh for that funding to be released for that quarter. And uh is there a requirement we should put a requirement in the language uh that uh a board member be part of the board? Have to check on if that's that's legal. I have to check to see if that's legal. Okay. All right.

If if the welcome center agreed to that, then I it is, but I don't think we could force it. Okay. I thought that was one of the stipulations, but that's And the Boys and Girls Club agreement. Okay. No. No. No, it's not. Okay. What is the amount that's been discussed?

20,000,000. Each audit each year the audit is seven $7,000 required audit for a nonprofit. So that's about $1,000 a month total. Uh maybe Mr. Lewis can come up and address some questions. Perhaps you can start with the letter that you shared with the town.

Yes. Um it's I don't have a copy of it with me, but it uh left it on my printer at home, so forgive me, but um simple request asking for the town to support the welcome center. We've been in operation since uh 2019. The town board unanimously voted to support the development um and and opening of the welcome center in 2019. There was a proclamation given by the town signed by uh Mayor Cindy at the time and we went ahead and we opened the welcome center. The town of Pittsburgh gave us $10,000 in facade grant money at that time and we've been operating on donations, sponsorships, fundraisers ever since. And where there is precedent for a town supporting welcome center. It's currently happening in Siler City. Uh Siler City supports they just opened a welcome center. are supporting it and Sanford has a welcome center that is being the town is uh supporting it to the tune of $25,000 and the county is supporting it to the tune of $25,000 as well. Uh we're asking the town for $20,000 to help us, you know, do what we do. You know, the idea is that people come to town, our goal is to keep them in town longer. Our goal is to tell them what's going on in town, tell them the events in town, tell them the businesses in town, so they stay here, they spend more money in town. Um, it's it's simple, you know, NHA and the county draws them into town. Pittsburgh draws them into town. You know, we do market the events that are going on, but a lot of people walk into the welcome center. They walk into the welcome center because they drive through Pittsburgh. They see Pittsburgh as a small town. As

they go through, it's like, "What's there to do here? There's nothing here." But then they say, "Welcome, sir." So, they stop, they ask questions. Our concierge, Peggy, uh, she gives them information. She tells them what's going on. We have a lot of information in there. Um, we'd like to start sharing more information about the upcoming project of the road, the road widening of of 15501 heading up. you know, we'd like to be the hub of information for that project. Um, we support all the events that go on in Pittsburgh by being open where the planners of those events can meet every day. Yesterday, you know, uh, we had the welcome center open so that they could use that as a place to meet and all of the planners hang out there when they needed to. Um, the bathrooms are used for the events, you know, I mean, it's right there. It's in downtown Pittsburgh. It's It's to me it's obvious, you know, but I've been on the board for since we've developed it. It's an obvious thing uh that the town needs it and the town should support it.

Centrally located if you weren't there, what would happen to it? I mean, I suppose a retail business would go in there. Okay. Centrally located. It's it's you know, what would that retail business be? You know, I don't know. But uh you know probably not a Starbucks. Yeah. Starbucks. Is that what you said? No. So what kind of economic benefits besides keeping people in town do you do you do you you help with?

Well I mean there you know by people getting in town there's there's tax benefits you know by the uh welcome center being open the restrooms are there. It saves to me it saves money for the town. Um, we're saving money for the town, having a concierge there giving out information. You know, you don't have an office in downtown. There's nothing on Main Street for the town of Pittsburgh. I think we're saving the town money by having it open. Willing to share information about upcoming events and all.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we would love to share the space, the open space, an office space, whether it be for a commissioner, town manager, or a planner to talk about these things with the town residents. You know, we've offered that. We'd love to for that something like that to happen. Absolutely. How are you funding now?

Currently, we fund through uh sponsorships. Uh we have donors that support us. They support us with a me to enough money to uh sponsor a week or a month. uh of operation and then we have fundraising events. We're getting ready to launch a online auction here in the next few days where we have 55 items donated by local businesses to support the welcome center. Right. 55 items from local businesses from overnight stays in in uh Pittsboro, dinner in Pittsburgh, shops donating, you know, the plant. We have a basket for the plant. I mean, a lot of things coming from local businesses because they support what we do. They see, like Tiana said earlier, they see people coming into their shops because we sent them. We suggested things for them to do in downtown, you know, and and at one point, like I said, there was a proclamation by this by this board supporting the welcome center, the development of it. We're just asking for a little financial support. Greg, do you guys get any uh financial support from the county? Not yet. I'm here first. Okay. When we when we opened the welcome center, when we built the welcome center, uh we had a facade grant, two facade grants from the town and we had some money from the county. All right. To help get the welcome center open. Nothing since that. I think your email also mentioned dedicated office um a kiosk to put out town information some print support.

Yes, absolutely. Did I miss anything? Think so. But I mean, you know, yeah, maps. We would love to have a map that we could pass out. So many people come in there asking for a map. You know, maps are expensive. They're expensive to develop. They're expensive to print. as the uh Chattam County um Chamber of Commerce, you know, they're like gold and they're expensive to print and expensive to to develop, but yeah, we'd love to have something like that. I think the town should create a map or pay somebody to.

So, I remember originally when we talked about this, it was going to be you, of course, the Chattam County welcome center with support from Chattam County um including Siler City. I think um the chamber and the tourism bureau and you know, I think over time the tourism bureau has offices somewhere else. The chamber went somewhere else. siler open their own and Chattam County hasn't supported it. So like what what of those like what are the indications you're getting I guess from those organizations?

The the Chamber of Commerce rented an office from us for a while. They were in in there but there were too many people coming in there and interrupting their work, right? There were too many visitors coming in there to keep them from doing their work. We have a member um um uh oh my gosh her name just went off from the top of my head that is on our board of Sher. Sher is on our board for the welcome center. She ran the Chattam County uh Chamber of Commerce for a while. So we have someone on our board from the Chamber of Commerce. They support the Welcome Center, right? It was just too it was just too busy there for them at the time. Um and as far as the uh working with Niha, Niha has our office. Niha uh has a website brings people into town and uh we our concierge had a meeting with Niha a couple of weeks ago going through Niha's website so that we would learn more about what Niha does and how we can support her and help you know work together on those things. And as far as Siler City, we have a member of the Siler City Chamber of Commerce and the Siler City Merchants Association on our board as well. Um, all we all work together to to make this work. But yes, it is a Pittsboro and Chattam County welcome center. And like I said, it is my goal to go to the county after the town of Pittsburgh. But Siler City just opened their own welcome center and it is 100% supported by the town of Siler City and we're not asking for 100% support. We're not asking, you know, we're asking for help.

I think they bought the building. Excuse me. They bought the building town, I think. And then they're they're they're putting their staff member in because they just got they just got put on the Main Street list. I think that person is going to be their main street person, I think. So I heard the same thing. Congrats. Sol that big step.

I mean, welcome centers do a great job. You know, my wife and I, we like going into welcome centers when we go out of town, when we go to other countries, other states, wherever. We like going into welcome centers. A, we learn what they're doing and how they're doing it. We see different funding models for different welcome centers and how they're staffed, but we also learn what's going on in the area and, you know, some off thebeaten path things, you know, that we can send people to or we get to go to.

Greg, I I really appreciate your advocate advocacy for this and I appreciate all the effort and volunteering that you've been doing on it. Um, when Commissioner Foley brought this question to me month or two ago, uh, my response was, I feel like we've just got too much on our plate right now. And we, in our, uh, consent agenda, passed a $50,000 expenditure for planning staff. We heard from planning staff earlier tonight just how overwhelmed they are and how much more work they're doing with many fewer people than the county planning department. Um, uh, I spoke with a a candidate for this fall's election, uh, for this board, and that person indicated, uh, in the spring that they thought they were going to be running on fiscal conservatism. And after they heard how seriously we grappled with our budget this year and how many things we had to cut, um, they changed their mind. Um, we're we're mining the pennies. We're mining the dollars and it's really tough and I personally can't support it this year. Uh, what I did say is that if the county stepped up, then is when I will think more seriously about this. But I'm sorry that just for at this moment in time I I'm just one vote. But and I can and I can appreciate your your concern and your thoughts and that's your job is, you know, to spend the taxpayer dollars wisely. Um, investing in something that keeps people in downtown as a small business owner is is a wise investment. Yes.

You know, because it creates more tax dollars for you. Um, so you know it there's there's um I think you should probably set it up but I know there's any further questions. What are the hours of the website? So currently we have a concierge there that is a that is there 20 hours a week except on uh weeks that there's first Sunday it's 25 hours a week but we rent uh two offices to Century 21 and they have people in there as well that expands our hours. So we're probably open 40 50 hours a week. Their their hours aren't set our hours are set.

So the realtors are also like answering questions. Absolutely. Yes. It's I mean they because they see the benefit in in it to them because there's people coming into town looking where to go, where to move. Hey, I'm considering moving to Pittsburgh, considering um you know, whatever. There's a lot of benefits to them because they see all of the people that come into the welcome center. Like percentage wise, how much of the operational expenses are covered by that like sub lease? Uh 25%. Maybe 30. I'm also the treasurer. You should know 27.

Well, you know, I haven't done the percentages. Yeah.

I mean, I think overall with as we saw in the example like it this is there's a lot of good things that happen in the town and the town has to pay for things that the town would do or would benefit the town. And so I think if if Jonathan works to develop what that like contract would look like of what services would be provided and when they'd be provided and stuff, then I think that gives this board a lot better look at what what we're talking about. I mean, I think conceptually it's, you know, it could be good. Um, but I think that the specifics of what the town would be getting out of this contract, um, would be what we need to see really. And then I'm I'm curious as well like I think I think there's been four facade grants over time and and other support. So if we could get some like look at what what that has been over time because I I also believe that that the county should be investing in this. It's county that gets more tax revenue of every dollar

um sign we agree with you get tourism tax. So, you know, I think um even even at any amount, it would be significant for the county to buy into this concept of a welcome center as well. Um so,

yeah, I mean, with a little bit of funding from the town, more from the county, I mean, we expand our services, you know, and that's that's the goal. That's what we need to do. Um the hours that we're open are successful. People appreciate what we do. The businesses on Hillsboro Street on Main Street appreciate what we do. The visitors coming into town appreciate what we do and us being there. So, it it it can only get better.

Thank you, Heather. I'll just ask this, Heather. How was our budget looking? How was our We've allocated already um uh 1.3. Oh, yeah. I thought it was 1.2. I think it's 1.3 out of our fund balance this fiscal year. I don't think they're asking that much. No, but that's million. No, it's an additional out of our fund balance. So, it's I mean it unless we're going to take it out of a current department budget. So um which I don't keep from fun immediately looks up like don't you well it was recommending the police on

but also we are that's another 10 grand in our current budget we we are budgeting 240,000 to support downtown in our downtown budget. So um that is money that the town is doing that we used to give to Main Street Inc. who did the downtown for um and so this is money that the now the town staff uses to support events to promote events to promote downtown. Yeah, it's a sorry I think we have the downtown advisory board as well. So I think be good to have some type of agreement and then get the downtown advisory board to advise the idea give input.

Yeah, because I'd love to get the downtown board's opinion on what the agreement might look like. I mean a lot of the things that you suggested we are already doing in house but the thing that we don't have are readily available bathrooms in downtown which I think is that should pay for itself useful thing but I the hours concern me a little bit um Syler City is open what 8 to5 every day I think 9 to5 9 to5 every day Sanford's open five days a week or five days they're not open on the weekends because it's a staff member that is essentially how much are they spending on that? Y. Yeah. Right. Right. How do you know how much they're spending?

How much they're spending? Well, I'm not I don't know. They bought the building. So, whatever the maintenance cost, uh, overhead and then the staff member. So, okay. Probably pretty close to what our main street budget is, minus plus - 50 or 100,000, but they're just getting started. So, that that budget will likely grow a lot, I'd imagine, as we hope ours does. as well. And I would think that the foot traffic in downtown Pittsburgh is more substantial than it is in Sil City. I don't know where their welcome center is. I can tell you that downtown Pittsburgh is much busier than down city.

And honestly, I think one home sale would pay for a year just in tax revenues. just one own sale that came from, hey, you should see Chattam Park or you should see uh this is a valuable asset that we're we we really have to consider that tax revenue is important. Realtors said have those two offices want to pay that. So some of our biggest supporters are realators. Yeah, I bet. You know, our builders, they're our biggest donors. I think that's why

Yeah. I mean, without a doubt, they see the they see the benefit of it. Um, and yeah, I hadn't, you know, the town benefits through the the sale of the house. So, 8.3 houses. 8.3. That's what we need to see. Sell a house a month. A month. You reach me fully on it. If you don't, you want to talk about it. You know, I'm easy to reach. You'll know how to find me. Yeah. No, I was just going to ask you were talking about the downtown budget. He says 240 use some of that for him.

I didn't want to say that, but that's, you know, take that from Teresa point somewhere other than general fun. It doesn't matter. Take it from them. Possibly. That's a possibility. Let's hear what the downtown advisor board. Yeah. Yes. What they say, but that's but I want them to consider that. I'll get the

All right. You bet. Thank you. Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Greg. Thank you all. All right. We're getting close. Yay. I will need to know how how hard you want me to negotiate with Greg on the agreement. So, we'll need some type of heads up on that at some point. Bamboo. uh new town hall building project. So Jonathan discussion sir am I related to our previous

um so you you saw a town hall that I think meets our needs side size-wise. Um certainly I think they knocked it out of the park if they were designing a kind of showstopper town hall. Um from a budget standpoint we we are nervous about that cost. Um timeline is tight. we have probably maybe a couple of months to spare um for when our lease is up in our current space or at least one of our leases is up. Uh so I I don't think we have any time to waste. Um so I'd like approval to go ahead and move forward with um RFQ for public facility design for construction and I'm leaving it very broad because we really don't know what our delivery method is yet. We're looking at design build. We're looking at construction manager at risk. Our previous lesson from the town hall on Salsbury is quickly uh a budget like that can can balloon and get out of hand. Even with this study, we said our budget is 12 to 13 to include design and we're already at 16. Um so I think we need to probably use a delivery method that sets the budget and we don't go any higher than that and we we deliver what we can with the money that we have. Otherwise, you're looking at a tax increase or some other type of bond or something else that um will lead to tax increases. Uh we also left it broad in terms of public facility design uh because the police are about to wrap up their study. Um we have to show that to you in October, right? Maybe

um October or November. And uh from having some discussions we've had with some other designers and some other people that that build public buildings for a living, uh there's possibly a savings if we do both buildings at the same time. So if we go ahead and design both bid both out, uh there's a potential savings uh within that. So we want to go ahead and get cranking on our RFQS. Don, is there a possibility that uh cost per square foot 544 to be down on three RFQS? Yeah, we it's a high estimate, I assume.

I think it is. Uh, and I think it just depends on your finishes, the exterior, the interior. Um, you know, we talked with the folks that designed Windendell's town hall, they they had been delivering buildings around 425 450. Um, but if you look at the the Windendell town hall compared to to this plan, it is a it is a much more conservative approach to a town hall. And you can see that in if you Google Windells Town Hall, it's a great town hall. Don't let me knock it at all, but it it doesn't have all the bells and whistles that uh this design had. So, I think I think we can get it there. We just we're just going to take a different approach. And and I think the other thing in in support of this broader approach is one, you know, we learned at our last attempt at the town hall design um to like this board was very involved in the decisions. We had meetings talking about number of seats at the desk and stuff like that. Like I think we've got to pull ourselves up to a little bit of higher level of detail on that and let staff run a little bit to hit these timelines um and and just progress and and budget too because every every wish we make is going to affect the budget. um which is you know intentional in many ways too but um I think that and I think that there's some more industry common methods of delivery that we can use for this town hall that'll get us a better more cost shy in the process. Make a motion to authorize a town manager to issue an RFQ for the public facility design and for construction or for construction.

Thank you. Is there a second? Second, Mr. Farrell. Any other discussion? Those Oh, and this will include both buildings. This RFQ will include both buildings. Okay. Um town hall and the police station. Okay. Yeah, we we had talked originally with this firm about maybe some fire too. Um but fire is a bit of a different animal u not only in the design because you've got bays and all these other control systems but also because the fire department will be a partner with that and really it may be us being the partner with the fire department. U so then we'll we'll have to do that completely.

But the thought is like you know Hob is working on the designs for both of these now. They're both office space for the town at a certain level of finish. So there's a lot of relation for for any firm of these uh combination there. There's some efficiencies we hope. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Thank you. Uh and last open item is the request for a public lease agreement.

Yes, sir. Thank you. So, I've spoken with you all about this. Aromatic Roers sent us a a lease proposal, 1,200 a month. It did not include utilities. It did not include maintenance. Um, I think they wanted a longer term than what we can agree to, but looking at potentially renting some space at the pop-up park for some type of food or beverage vendor probably would be a year lease at a time. That particular lease would be put up for, you know, quote unquote bid to see whoever the highest bidder was for that space. uh we still need to work out some details with them or whoever it might be about utilities because they're going to be the majority user of utilities at that space. Um now all we have is string lights and a bathroom that we use once a month. Um now in terms of events that go on, we typically let those event users use the our power for free as as kind of a town contribution. Um but we could work that out some some way. Uh so really this is more to see if if you all are interested in us taking this approach um if you've been to the downtown carry park for instance their their bark bar that is the same process as this and a lot of other places do it as well. Instead of running their own um concession stands they just contract it out and they keep a piece of of the pie.

Yeah. I didn't really want to get into the the whole revenue sharing thing. Um, I'd rather have guaranteed 1,200 bucks so we could do some landscaping upgrades in downtown rather than Yeah.

Yeah. With with also the guarantee that they're going to mind the maintenance of the bathroom and picking up around their facility, emptying their own trash. Um, uh, I really like the idea a lot. I I do feel that it's really important that it be very clearly advertised uh such that any local businesses have opportunity to um take up the opportunity um and I think you mentioned something for an upset bid process or I don't know what that is but it can be advertised and and publicly competitive think so yeah that that's what Paul and I have discussed thus far. Okay.

It's not required to do that, but if that's the way you want to do it, sure. That that is certainly my preference. You only talk about one spot on that whole piece of property. Well, so more spots could be opened up. It's Heather and I talked about this, but then we'd have to run electrical to the perimeter of that property because nothing to me is more annoying than a loud Yes.

generator in the middle of a downtown on a nice day when you're trying to enjoy yourself. It's it ruins the enjoyment and and it's also a threat to human health. And those two cycle generators are are highly polluting and um having electrified uh service for any of these uh vendors or concessions I think would be very important. Um, I I was going to say that before we got to that point that u um Greg Stafford has that across the street from the uh Havoc. Um and he might have pricing for what it cost him to install electric utilities for the uh the food truck that parks on the opposite side of the street there. I think that could be advantageous if this is absolutely isn't something I mean that is definitely advantageous. I think if if this is something that is is popular then open up additional space and we could fund the electric upgrades through through a piece.

Um and I think you know I would like to see some our guarantees in there too that it's not somebody taking that spot um to at at the exclusion of somebody else or you know that it's going to be something that's open. I think that was originally when we talked about the popup park, there was a concession area in there and it just didn't make it financially. So, I think this is a good option to to get that, you know, activated again. I mean, I was reminded and and got comments um about the pop-up park and, you know, the event yesterday there and just what a great space it is out of a parking lot. It was temporary space. It's a lot of fun. It's good work. Mhm.

Um, and you know, if we can do that every day of the week, morning and night. Has there been any talk about limitations on what kind of concessions can be held there? Session stands or not as yet. It'd be a trailer, right? Mobile trailer. Be a mobile trailer. Whatever. It have to be a mobile trailer because every 179 days they'd have to move it. Yeah. Could be a truck. But well, and when we have events, we don't want Yeah, because we open that up, you know, when there's for Sundays, they have their own vendors there. We wouldn't it would have to be moved at that point as well.

That's a good point. Um, but right beside the bathroom trailer, there is already water, sewer, and electric. So, that that tie-in should be okay. That's why we were kind of thinking one, but once you start doing two and three, we're going to have to put in more those electric services. And we had that priced when we built the pop-up park. I want to say it was either 15 or 30,000 and we just god no it's not talked great during a like a sponsored event would aromatic roasters automatically be there that is something I have not so just to clarify it's not guaranteed that that they are the vendor

the vendor in question that's my point that's my point vendor in question would they be you know whoever it is would want to stay Yeah, they may want to stay there or and they may have a more lucrative option elsewhere, but wondering if they are automatic because they're a lease will move in and more money ships request about having them fulfill certain hours of operations. If if that is untenable for them, we don't want that to harm them as a business. And so maybe we have some consideration in the term of the lease that it's just not doable.

Might not be the right time for having a full-time coffee shop in our pop-up park. I don't know. Well, I'm not saying golf shop specifically, but you know, open six days a week or something like that because I don't want to be says, "Oh, well, it's worth it to me to pay X to be there twice a month." Y and then we don't actually get the benefit of it. Yeah. or they're only open Saturdays and Sundays. Yeah. Yeah. So it, you know, if it was a cocktail truck, then maybe it's skew stores evening. If the coffee and cocktails, maybe it's, you know, all day

morning. So yeah. Um, so I'm not suggesting to prescribe hours necessarily, but just that there is multiple hours, multiple days um to actually open. Great. Perhaps some of that revenue can go towards the welcome center. That will be up to you all because we have to do a budget amendment to recognize the revenue. I think we should conflate the two. There's a revenue out there. Throwing it out there. Is that enough for you to

Oh, that's Yeah, that's plenty. Yes. Thank you. So, did y'all do a motion on the welcome center piece? No. There was nothing to move on just to Yep. to downtown. All right. On this Jonathan, some kind of RFP going to issue. Think we could do a motion to empower the manager too. That sounds good. an RP.

I will move to empower our town manager to create a request for a proposal process for uh lease agreement for concessions in the pop-up park. Thank you. Second, Commissioner Foley. All those in favor say I. I. I. Recommend a license, not a lease. But anyway, we'll get to that point later. What' you say? I recommend a license instead of a lease. A license? Yep. We'll give that I got license.

We'll take a motion to enter into close session pursuant to NCGs 1433181 111 A3 to consult with the town attorney and 143381 111 A6 to hear or investigate a complaint, charge or grievance by or against a public officer or employee. So move Baldwin second. Commissioner Bonnets. All those in favor say I. I. All right.

All right. Are we back? All right. We are back in open session. I'll take a motion to adjourn. So moved. Bonnets. Seconded. Second. your roles.